Did I just see a crossdresser?

[CarleyR]

A lot of the discussion here is about whether others recognize us as crossdressers. Many of us hope to avoid detection, either because of passability, or because others aren't looking that closely.

I think we should turn the question around: do WE recognize crossdressers in public?

I know in the past I haven't noticed some crossdressers. (My wife told me about them, because she noticed). Today, at an airport, thinking about this issue, I noticed one woman in line who I wondered about. Between her high boots and her skirt, her legs looked rough. Then I looked at her face and it too seemed rougher than normal for a female, and her hair seemed compatible with being a wig. She was alone, and while not stiff, wasn't displaying female fluidity of movement. CD or GG? Frankly, I have no idea. Maybe I'm not a good CD-spotter.

What about you? Have you noticed crossdressers in public? If so what lessons do you have for the rest of us from those spottings?

[Chickhe]

Yes, a few, I took their picture posted it online and called out to them! ...I dunno, TG spotting, really? Just being sarcastic, I have seen a few and the only thing to keep in mind is just like you and I they are regular people trying to lead a happy life so they are best to be left alone to do their own thing. I guess in a way it was nice to see around my own town because it lets me know I'm not alone...although it made me also think about what it would be like to live full time...maybe having to deal with being 'spotted' and not having the time to do a perfect makeup job every day. I hold a very high respect for anyone who can do it full time (I guess also anyone who can go out in public at all for that matter). It takes a lot of courage and I think being in the know, we can spot each other more often than others.

[Wildaboutheels]

Despite what MANY folks here claim, it IS NOT POSSIBLE to be 100 Percent sure about someone's sexuality just from watching them. END OF STORY. And if folks THINK they can tell because of how someone walks or talks? Wrong AGAIN.

And claiming it over and over, isn't going to change that.

IF some should claim otherwise, come to Florida, land of perpetual skin and skimpy clothing and then try your luck.

I think very few folks go about their daily lives "looking for CDers" except CDers.

[Cynthia Anne]

I frankly don't pay much attention to others! I like to let people live their own life as they see fit as I live mine as I see fit!

[sandra-leigh]

In "live" situations, I have never had a cross-dresser pointed out to me whom I had not already noticed. I do not consider myself to have more "perceptive powers" than average, and am not so good at those "male or female?" photo quizzes, and I don't tend to pay a lot of attention to people in the crowd. I don't consider picking out the cross-dressers to be at all a "knack" or skill of mine. More like now that I know that cross-dressing exists and have seen some, my brain does not automatically censor out and "re-imagine" what it is seeing to "fill in" the person being "really" female. It seems likely to me that I would fail to pick out the dressers with better skills.

But do I recognize MTF crossdressers in public? Yes: I have noticed several here in Winnipeg. Not an "every day" occurrence, but enough that it isn't an "Oh Wow!" event.

What I have difficulty with is the FTM, difficulty in trying to decide whether an individual is a "dyke" (mannish lesbian), or if they just happen to like wearing some styles that overlap, or if they are FTM crossdressers, or if they are FTM transgender, or if they are FTM TS who haven't (yet?) gone the testosterone-and-beard route -- or if the individual is gender-queer. I am seeing a fair number of gender-queer females, or perhaps they are FTM. I think the pharmacy assistant I usually deal with is probably gender-queer.

[ReineD]

I think we should turn the question around: do WE recognize crossdressers in public?

What about you? Have you noticed crossdressers in public? If so what lessons do you have for the rest of us from those spottings?

I have a pet theory about this. I don't know if it is true, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

Fact:
Some people can read my SO right away, while others don't, or at least they give no indication they do. Some people have better developed gay-dars than others. I have a much better gay-dar than my SO. We've discussed this. :p I'm also quite adept at reading gender cues accurately. And, this is unrelated but along the same vein: some people can spot a lie immediately. They have an inner sense of all the body language that accompanies lying. While others don't. Still unrelated, some people have highly developed intuitions about others, they sense their feelings as if they were feeling the emotions themselves. While others cannot.

My pet theory:
My point with all of this is, there is a range in people's abilities to read things. With regards to gender, I think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender. This is not a good or a bad thing, it just is. When they see themselves, they see both, even if alternatively. Some CDers think they pass totally when they look at themselves in the mirror (or they're not sure), when others will read them. Some CDers have difficulty telling whether the GG in front of them is a man or not if she has short hair, a stocky body, is not wearing makeup and is wearing pants. And some CDers are convinced the other CDers they see in pics look totally like GGs, when (even though they are attractive and feminine looking), they don't.

If this sounds harsh, I'm sorry. I'm not wanting to be mean, just objective. And I've fallen prey to this phenomena myself, many years ago. I was not able to see something that others were able to see quite well, unrelated to gender.

[Billie Jean]

The only way I could say for sure would be to give the Crodile Dundee test. Just kidding. I would need to ask but I wouldn't want to embarass anyone, especially myself. Billie Jean

[AllisontheGoddess]

I've never seen another CD except me in public -- not even on Halloween :/

[noeleena]

Hi,

Ill direct that ? to my self, you would not see in my face a female looking at you. though im a female / woman my facial features are very male looking, so would you come up to me & say hi. or would you watch me in how i interact with others ,

posible how i walk so youd look harder at my manisms would you not, hands . not sure on that they are not much different than some of my women friends, adams apple dought you see much there, more like a female voice well .... im not sure youd have to hear me to comment on that, or ask Snow White, or Tara D Rose what they think. as i rang them up yesterday, what other give aways, no makeup,
I really think youd see some mixed details yet over all i think youd see a woman.as in my avatra,

Like to hear what you think. would be nice,

You have to remember im intersexed, so there is a few telltail things going on......

There is a point that Reine has said , the no makeup. well i dont ....need .... it, i cream my face in the morning , when out lippy & because of being burnt years ago i have a scar on my right side of my face so i use eyebrow liner, & thats it,

i do have women who look at me & have said what lovely skin you have its olive apart from my burn .
im 65 so give me a bit of slack ,


...noeleena...

[debbeelee1]

One time I was putting my things on the counter at Wallmart to check out in male mode and a fairly nice looking woman who I was 90% sure was a crossdresser got in line behind me. I smiled and said something like "Hello, you look nice". She smiled back and said "Thank you!". Either way, I think I made her day without being overly intrusive!

[Matia]

II think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender. This is not a good or a bad thing, it just is. When they see themselves, they see both, even if alternatively. Some CDers think they pass totally when they look at themselves in the mirror (or they're not sure), when others will read them.

my experience is, that opening up to my crossdressing actually made me much more aware of the differences and it's getting "better". Before, if I saw a tg with a wig, I was mainly looking at the face and the hair - if this was made well, i couldn't tell it's not a girl and it made me very excited. In time my perception of what makes girl a girl changed a lot. Before, if I saw boobs I thought - female.. later you start recognise more details, hips, shoulders, hands. Now when I try to look as a girl, I am very aware of my way of walking / moving and how painfully different it is for man and women.. Just how you hold your arms/elbows compared to girls etc, trying to mimick this is not easy . I am just saying this, because I don't think that CDs have an ambigious way of looking at gender, in fact, I think that the quest for being a perfect woman actually opens eyes :)

[Cheryl T]

I think the old adage, "takes on to know one" sometimes is true.
I've been shopping with my wife and she misses a sister, but I spot her. Sometimes there are "tells"...the outfit is a bit out of place for where we are, the makeup is a bit too much, or something like that. Sometimes the thing that draws attention has nothing to do with how you dress. In one case my eye was drawn to her because she was so much taller than the woman she was with. First I noticed the height, then I noticed the little things that others might miss. I never ever approach and say anything. I wouldn't want that to happen to me with crowds around. A little knowing smile or a wink is one thing...

[Jillian Faith]

I have a pet theory about this. I don't know if it is true, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

Fact:
Some people can read my SO right away, while others don't, or at least they give no indication they do. Some people have better developed gay-dars than others. I have a much better gay-dar than my SO. We've discussed this. :p I'm also quite adept at reading gender cues accurately. And, this is unrelated but along the same vein: some people can spot a lie immediately. They have an inner sense of all the body language that accompanies lying. While others don't. Still unrelated, some people have highly developed intuitions about others, they sense their feelings as if they were feeling the emotions themselves. While others cannot.

My pet theory:
My point with all of this is, there is a range in people's abilities to read things. With regards to gender, I think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender. This is not a good or a bad thing, it just is. When they see themselves, they see both, even if alternatively. Some CDers think they pass totally when they look at themselves in the mirror (or they're not sure), when others will read them. Some CDers have difficulty telling whether the GG in front of them is a man or not if she has short hair, a stocky body, is not wearing makeup and is wearing pants. And some CDers are convinced the other CDers they see in pics look totally like GGs, when (even though they are attractive and feminine looking), they don't.

If this sounds harsh, I'm sorry. I'm not wanting to be mean, just objective. And I've fallen prey to this phenomena myself, many years ago. I was not able to see something that others were able to see quite well, unrelated to gender.

Reine I think you hit the nail on the head as evidenced on this very site each and every day

[Melissa73]

idk if i ever have! however recently i went to Target (right before closing) and i was checking out the clearance sales.... and some bikinis (since its off season), when i saw this man across the asle looking at purses and belts. We saw onew another and kinda split in opposite directions. but in my mind i was thinking he was a sister.

[linda allen]

I have seen what I'm sure was a MtF at the cosmetology school (a student practicing). She had a nice rack and displayed it proudly but she was otherwise skinny, over six feet tall and had a prominent adams apple. I guess she was a work in progress.

Other than that, I have seen only a couple women that I suspected were CDers in my lifetime and I've bee around quite a while. There's no way to be sure (except for an obvious 5 o'clock shadow), and it would be pretty embarassing to walk up to someone and say "That's a nice job of crossdressing there." and then find out she is a GG.

[Beverley Sims]

I make eye contact with women all the time and smile as an acknowledgement. The contact is not usually enough to read the person unless there is beard shadow. Other clues are tall or broad shoulders, gangly walk or other non feminine actions. These are not always positive and I probably assume I have read only about twenty percent of those women with manly mannerisms.

[Ressie]

I've seen a few women lately in public that I suspected to be CD because their butt was rather small. But getting a closer look I found that I was wrong.

[~Joanne~]

I have seen a sister pumping gas while I was a manager, she paid at the pump and then was gone. I think I may have seen one at the shoe store but she was really well done up and out to her daughters if she was. Other than these two instances (one I am not sure about) I have never seen another girl anywhere. Then again, when I am out I am not looking either. Usually minding my own business and doing whatever it is I am doing at the time :)

[Melissa_59]

I have seen other cross dressers out in public, but not in the city where I live (I think I'm alone here). When I do see someone that I've read, I generally think "Nice!" and then a minute later my brain is on other subjects. I'm not on "active search" for this though, if I see it, I see it, but I don't really think of it as "out of the ordinary" (unless it happens in my town, which is west of Austin - then I'd be very surprised).

[bridget thronton]

It doesn't not matter to me - I see people out and about doing what needs to be done (I do not think much about their sex or gender presentation - they simply get a smile from me)

[michelleddg]

One time I was putting my things on the counter at Wallmart to check out in male mode and a fairly nice looking woman who I was 90% sure was a crossdresser got in line behind me. I smiled and said something like "Hello, you look nice". She smiled back and said "Thank you!". Either way, I think I made her day without being overly intrusive!

Debbee nailed it. It's always OK to just say "You look nice!" Then you've made someone's day be it a sister or a GG. I've also had this: At the start of a MAC makeover a young man walked up and said "Hi, I'm Carla, you're going to look great when they're done with you." Hugs, Michelle

[BillieJoEllen]

I have seen quite a few CDers out and about. I think I am very good at spotting them. Except for one time I have never approached them without their permission. I have also seen some very masculine looking women. There seems to always be a number of things that identifies them either way. I usually glance at everyone that comes my way and I don't think I've ever been fooled in my adult life although I don't go out of my way one way or another.

[~Serena~]

I have a pet theory about this. I don't know if it is true, but I'll throw it out there anyway.

Fact:
Some people can read my SO right away, while others don't, or at least they give no indication they do. Some people have better developed gay-dars than others. I have a much better gay-dar than my SO. We've discussed this. :p I'm also quite adept at reading gender cues accurately. And, this is unrelated but along the same vein: some people can spot a lie immediately. They have an inner sense of all the body language that accompanies lying. While others don't. Still unrelated, some people have highly developed intuitions about others, they sense their feelings as if they were feeling the emotions themselves. While others cannot.

My pet theory:
My point with all of this is, there is a range in people's abilities to read things. With regards to gender, I think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender. This is not a good or a bad thing, it just is. When they see themselves, they see both, even if alternatively. Some CDers think they pass totally when they look at themselves in the mirror (or they're not sure), when others will read them. Some CDers have difficulty telling whether the GG in front of them is a man or not if she has short hair, a stocky body, is not wearing makeup and is wearing pants. And some CDers are convinced the other CDers they see in pics look totally like GGs, when (even though they are attractive and feminine looking), they don't.

If this sounds harsh, I'm sorry. I'm not wanting to be mean, just objective. And I've fallen prey to this phenomena myself, many years ago. I was not able to see something that others were able to see quite well, unrelated to gender.

Reine, I like your theory. I think I look passable sometimes and at other times I feel like I don't. I only post the photos that I think make me look the most feminine (which is usually about 5 for every 50 lol) which to me all depend on lighting, flash, makeup, hairstyle, etc. I remember the first time I shopped at walmart all dressed up, I saw a couple of guys eyeing me. I was and even now still am curious to know whether they saw something that gave me away or if they were simply checking me out. I think the former sounds more plausible because there could have been numerous things that I didn't do properly then but the latter would have been better (oh well...don't want to lie to myself). I also have a horrible gaydar unless they're blatant about it like the way they dress, move their hands or most noticibly their tone of voice (not trying to generalize but I've met many) which I find rather annoying (and I don't like myself for judging a person but its what I honestly think). But to each his own...this is a free country and which is why so many people immigrate here. As said before I try my best not to judge others in the hopes that I too will be not be judged.

Serena

[kimdl93]

honestly, I have seldom noticed of us out in everyday life. I did think I saw a fellow traveler at the grocery store last year...the individual was painfully thin, very tall - perhaps 6'3". But what caught my eye was the outfit...a bit over the top for the grocery. I can't criticize too much however, because when I made my first grocery shopping foray en femme, I was probably over dressed a tad as well. I've since made it a point to tone it down just a bit.

[Lorileah]

You mean there are more of me out there? I never even notice people like John Elway or Doug Moe in the mall (My GF did right away...I didn't at all).

The other day I was walking through Target and this woman smiled at me and I thought "she knows I am not a woman" and then I realized, I was dressed as a guy! But maybe she knew I was a a TG and she was just letting me know that she knew that I knew that she knew. Everyone has an agenda ( said it before I will keep saying it) and unless you interfere with their agenda they don't really care what you look like. I have an agenda when I am out. I do notice some beautiful tall and often masculine women. Rarely am I sure they are not TS or very good CDs. But then again, no one else cared around me either.

[cyndigurl45]

I actually became alot more comfortable expressing myself after I paid attention to just how rough some GG's can be......

[Debra Russell]

I spot quite a few women that I wonder about - the give-away for me is facial, male skin and feminine softness and expression; this takes a closer scrutinization but is almost infallible. Most of the time I notice women who have a more masculine body, large shoulders, narrow hips ect, but the face reviles there femininity-not to say that we as cders can't pull it off/pass but if your on the lookout, sure any one can tell if your really looking -- and yes my cdar is up all the time -the more you observe you learn = easier to go en femm with ease.........................Debra

[Stephanie47]

When I was in San Francisco for an extended period of time, seven weeks, I did notice a pair of cross dressers. I think I was able to identify them as cross dressers because they did not move with the ease of a woman. Or it was be they were trying to hard to appear as a woman. I know nobody cared, but, I think they just wanted to pass too much. Then upon seeing them the analysis kicked in. Their body type was not that of a woman. Nobody else in my group noticed them. So, maybe I was being too observant. I actually I suspect my ability to notice them was a survival technique learned in the jungles of Nam, where life and death hinged on the littlest piece of information.

Within the last five years in my town I have noticed the same cross dresser twice. Everyone noticed him. There was no effort to pass. I think he was trying to make a statement, but, I could not figure it out. He was not my definition of femininity, whether the person was a man or a GG.

I did see another young man cross dressing on Halloween in a local variety store. He was an employee showing himself off on his personal time. He was very passable. However, he was making an effort to let all his co workers know who he was. I overheard some conversations of the female employees and they were of the opinion he was not just dressing up for Halloween. They had him pegged as a regular cross dresser. They weren't critical of him. They were just stating there opinion. I'd say they were right on!

[sherib]

Results 1 to 25 of 25


Thread: Did I just see a crossdresser?
I have seen a few that I thought were crossdressers and I've also seen a few that I was absolutely positive they were. But all except one was way more masculine and showed it.

[kimdl93]

....Some people can read my SO right away, while others don't, or at least they give no indication they do. Some people have better developed gay-dars than others. I have a much better gay-dar than my SO.

...I think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender. .

I think both are true statements. I don't know if its a male/female thing or a GG/TG thing, but my wife definitely has much sharper gaydar. I don't know if she a better eye for discerning CDrs than I because we just haven't encountered that many other CDrs in public. But I'm willing to stipulate that she'd be more preceptive than I in that case as well...mostly because she (quite correctly) thinks I'm oblivious to such things.

[Wildaboutheels]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, does it not make sense that SO's of CDers, would ALWAYS be on the lookout for other CDers?

[BRANDYJ]

Over the years I have seen quite a few crossdressers and some that I was not sure of. But I do think we as crossdressers may notice more then the average male might. We tend to look at women in a verydifferent way then non-crossdressing males do. We look closer at her makeup, hair, clothes and body shape, while many of the non CD guys are looking at her in a mostly sexual way with no thoughts about whether or not she is in fact a she. I can only think of one time that I was fooled. It was whereI worked. I had seen this tall attractive lady and not given her any thought beyond thinking she wasnice looking for her age (50ish) It took a young cashier motioning me over and pointing her out to me as a guy. Then she asked me if I could help her find what she was looking for. So I walked up to her and asked if I may of assistance. Now in close quarters I noticed the larger hands, voice, and feet. But still in her case the skin texture and hair made it difficult to determine. But yes, I confirmed. While working there I had seen about 4 other CD/TS's that shopped there. Other then a few joking comments from a few of the guys working there, no one laughed, made fun of, or treated them badly. All of the female cashiers were always nice and never joked about any of them. There was one that was anything but passable and dressed very shabby while sweating riuining her poor attempt to makeup. Another that was nasty, rude, fowl mouthed when simply approached asking if she needed any help finding anything. If it were not for her nasty attitude, I think she may have gone undetected.

[Patti Remick]

I think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender.

I would strongly (and very respecfully) disagree with Reine on the above point (only). While I would agree that there is a range in all peoples abilities to read others I feel that as a lifelong CDr Ive spent much of my life specifically looking at the differences between females/males women/men so as to better be able to look/act like a female and not look/act like a male. Basic understanding of human anthropology shows that recognition of even subtle gender differences is aquired at a VERY young age. Ive read that there have been studies that show that infants less than 3 months old can discern between fully clothed adult females and males. Recognition of gender differences is an extremely important skill we need to function as humans both within the basic family unit as well as within society. These traits go back to out earliest ancestors. Human sexual dimorphism is an extremely strong human trait. Just in facial structure alone (where we tend to look first) there are significant differences between adult females and males. Bone structure of the entire head is different (eye sockets, jaw mass) as is the muscle mass. I would agree that the ability to 'read' a CDr will be different for everyone but I have never had any difficulty reading others nor do I entertain any fantasies that I could 'pass' regardless of how I am prepared. Some CDrs pass well in photopgraphs but would be read instantly in real life. I recall the first time I went to a meeting of a local CD/TG group. This was many, many years ago and long before the internet so I had never really seen many other CDrs. There must have been 20-30 other CDrs there. What a shock it was when I realised how almost every one of them was so easily 'read' by me. I was a bit depressed after that contemplating my own appearance although I had a professional 'makeover' just before I got there (wow, thats a story for another time!).

Anyway the truth is that as well I feel I can read CDrs I actually have seen very few 'out and about' in my 'normal' life. Maybe I dont get out much - Im not big on shopping, malls, etc. The last CDr I saw was at my local library (Im a bookworm, bibliophile). She was very well dressed (pretty dress just abone the knee, dark nylons, pump shoes, light overcoat), good hair (wig) and makeup (not overdone). Tall, over 6ft. Male facial features to the max - huge jawline, adams apple. Fair female mannerisms but the male gait (walk) was unmistakable. I happened to be in the check out line right behind her but had seen her earlier when I got there. We exited the library basically at the same time and I was able to watch her get into her car as I got into mine. The way she turned her whole body to put her right arm back so she could look back to backup (as you should) just re-iterated to me how different women and men move under similar circumstances and how overwhelmingly 'male' her movement way (because we dont even think about how we move most of the time).

Luv and hugs to all,
Patti Remick

[Angela Campbell]

I think women can tell better than men as they scrutinize other women more while men just look at any female and think either yah I would or ewww no way.

[kendra_gurl]

By percentages there really are very very few of us out in public to be seen. That in it's self makes it very very rare when we see a sister.

I have seen two CD's at the mall on seperate occasions both of whom were very obvious by there actions and attire (way over dressed plus not age appropriate).

Other than those in gay/les clubs we can usually spot who can say how many if any I have looked at with just a glance who pass well enought I never gave a thought about if they might not be GG.

Women pay way more attention to what other women are wearing be it clothing, jewlery, makeup or hair style. Since I myself have on several occasions shocked SA's and GG's playing machines next to me at the casinos when I have spoken to them and pretty much gave myself away I am sure just as they didn't notice at first neither can most of us if the CD is good at it.

[Kerstin]

In all my life I have never noticed a crossdresser or transsexual person. Not out and about in town, not in bars or clubs. I guess people pass more often than they think :)

[sandra-leigh]

Patti, your response to Reine addresses detecting biological sex, not detecting gender.

Let me put it this way:

If that GG over the way is wearing a pair of jeans, that doesn't mean she is male. Pants were formerly highly associated with "male", and it was literally scandalous for women to wear pants, and they were accused of trying to be male, but the wearing of what were formerly mens' clothes does not make any genetic female into being "male" gender.

On the other hand, if I (MTF) wear a pair of jeans, that doesn't mean that I am gender male. No matter what my deeper eye sockets, larger face, et al, look like, my gender is still female(-ish).

I do have difficulty with detecting gender, because I know that clothes and physical body appearance only hint at gender (as distinct from chromozomal sex.) I find it especially difficult with FTM who are not taking testosterone. When I look over at them and ask myself, "If I wore those clothes / had those kind of earrings / had my hair cut like that, would that make me male?"; and as I answer "No", I have to conclude that I don't know their gender either, especially if they are presenting borderline.

A note in this regard: I do see enough FTM or potential FTM around my city, "in the wild", that I am not saying the above in response to a single incident. Especially as I have gone to the Transgender Day of Remembrance here for several years now, which in this city is often 60% or more attended by genetic females, including transmen, their partners (GM or GG), dykes, lesbians, gender-queer, families, and allies. Thus I get to see how a lot of transmen and gender-queer are currently presenting, and so can recognize the style when I see it in public. Figuring out whom is which gender or which side of gender-queer they are, is often beyond my perception.

[ReineD]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, does it not make sense that SO's of CDers, would ALWAYS be on the lookout for other CDers?

I'm not. I'm among those who don't people-watch when I'm out and about, unless I'm sitting in a café somewhere with nothing to read or without a laptop. But, when I do take the time to look at people, I notice things.


I would strongly (and very respecfully) disagree with Reine on the above point (only).

Well, it is a pet theory and not something that I've researched. :) I did base it on the idea that emotional involvement often clouds objectivity.

I agree with everything in your post especially the differences between male and female facial structures. Studies show there is a 98% gender accuracy reading in faces that have no makeup and where the hair is hidden under a cap. I also agree that most kids know sooner than many adults, first because they stare more than adults do, but also they are still open to their environments. Most adults become too preoccupied with their own affairs to notice many things. But, if these same adults were to clear their minds and take the time to observe, they would be able to tell the differences too.

I think that we are least objective about ourselves though, since often we see what we want to see. This applies to most everyone and is not limited to gender perception.

[Cassandra Lynn]

Patti, your response to Reine addresses detecting biological sex, not detecting gender.

I do have difficulty with detecting gender, because I know that clothes and physical body appearance only hint at gender (as distinct from chromozomal sex.)

Thanx for bringing this up Sandra-Leigh, reading anything about people is a mix of all visual characteristics.

[krissy]

i love to see others like us have the nerve to be them selves.it makes me proud im getting there not yet but want to

[angpai30]

Yesterday I was up at the front desk talking to some of the girls up there and one of them was helping a customer who for some reason kept handing her license back to the cashier and saying "well you keep handing this back to me confused or something and this is my I.D." Sounds familiar, LoL! Finally I went over there to see if I could help and right off the bat looking at her first glance I knew she was trans, but didn't say anything... next I looked at her license and her license was like mine with her old male picture on it. I didn't say anything because I apparently must have helped the situation just by walking over because then the Ladies I.D. was taken because the girl realized what the problem was because I'm Trans. The lady looked at me as I had shaved that day, but didn't stick any makeup on thinking I would be able to get my kids that day earlier than what I did and thought I would go without any makeup, let alone I had razor burn. Everyone still called me ma'am, her and she. A few customers asked me why I had such a bad rash on my face and I said because I shaved and every single one of them laugned and told me that I was to pretty to have a mustache and asked what the problem really was. I told them it was a personal one and I wasn't comfortable talking about it. They took that with a smile and left with their stuff. Anyways, with this razor burn on my face and so obvioius that she was trans to me we both shared a stare and a smile and today she came through my line with her BF from what I could tell and checked on me a little closer as to say I know what you are and it's ok. LoL, I don't really know, it seemed like she came in for a closer look really.

Angela

[Meghan]

My point with all of this is, there is a range in people's abilities to read things. With regards to gender, I think that CDers are more likely to fall among the people who aren't that good at reading gender cues, because of their own inner sense of ambiguous gender. This is not a good or a bad thing, it just is. When they see themselves, they see both, even if alternatively. Some CDers think they pass totally when they look at themselves in the mirror (or they're not sure), when others will read them. Some CDers have difficulty telling whether the GG in front of them is a man or not if she has short hair, a stocky body, is not wearing makeup and is wearing pants. And some CDers are convinced the other CDers they see in pics look totally like GGs, when (even though they are attractive and feminine looking), they don't.

If this sounds harsh, I'm sorry. I'm not wanting to be mean, just objective. And I've fallen prey to this phenomena myself, many years ago. I was not able to see something that others were able to see quite well, unrelated to gender.

I think this is a very interesting theory. In other words, if transgendered people had a clear and distinct view of "gender appropriateness" for lack of a better term, then they would have been able to both observe and conform to gender-specific behaviors and roles enough to not end up dysphoric in the first place!

That opens up the possibility that some transgender beings can't identify with their own gender, so therefore, given the binary distribution of gender roles in society, they MUST driven from the other gender.

My son has Asperger's syndrome, and he has taught me a lot about how the human brain processes and relays information. I think your theory is a great one...what if some transgendered people are rejecting their male side, and are embracing their female side because they feel they have to pick one...instead of somehow accommodating both.

I personally have always preferred "girl" over "boy". I see myself as a girl and always have. But I wonder how many people would rather just not be male, so they end up identifying as female by default.

Meghan

[sandra-leigh]

what if some transgendered people are rejecting their male side, and are embracing their female side because they feel they have to pick one...instead of somehow accommodating both.

After quite a bit of struggle, I found that I knew I was not male. I do not, however, know that I am female even though I am sure that I am on the female side of the metaphorical dividing line. To approximate: I do not "know" myself to be female enough to identify as "female". (For example, I don't feel any need for SRS for myself, but I can see some point in FFS for myself.)

Now, this position of being in-between, of not knowing where I belong, is a difficult and stressful one. It feels to me that it would be much easier to say that "I guess I must be female then". I know that I am quite stubborn on not making big decisions without a Reason (or at least without Knowing); I think a lot of people, in my situation, would be willing to accept the parts of me that I do know to be female, together with me knowing I am not male, as being sufficient. And maybe they'd be right, perhaps I am using my strong rationality as a form of denial. But my Spock Logic is what I have to work with.

[ReineD]

Now, this position of being in-between, of not knowing where I belong, is a difficult and stressful one.

Yes, it must be incredibly difficult. I can't imagine how difficult, since people who don't solidly identify with one gender or the other have absolutely no blueprint for this. No role models, no sense of having met others like themselves when they grew up, on top of knowing that society rejects non-binary gender.

I think it takes a great deal of inner strength for bigenders to reach an inner peace and acceptance of who they are, all while trying to fit within society's rules. I don't blame CDers for wanting to look feminine. It's a necessary coping mechanism, I think.

Disclaimer: this doesn't apply to everyone. We all know how varied is this community.

[sandra-leigh]

Yes, it must be incredibly difficult. I can't imagine how difficult, since people who don't solidly identify with one gender or the other have absolutely no blueprint for this. No role models, no sense of having met others like themselves when they grew up, on top of knowing that society rejects non-binary gender.

It is very much a "Aggh! I need to make everything up as I go along!" feeling, seasoned with a generous dose of internal thoughts of "... and you're probably going to make a big mistake and choose the wrong thing!" As Colossal Cave phrased it, "Are you sure? Are you sure you're sure? Are you sure as sure as sure can be?" Oh, God, how do I know?? If I was definitely transsexual, I could follow in the path of others, I could do something, I could get somewhere! The doing wouldn't be easy, I know, but there would be a goal. Where-as if you are in-between and don't know if that is the right place for you or not, you don't have a gender home to go to. Some people thrive on the challenge, but I don't. I want the very very fine house with two cats in the yard and the putting flowers in the vase, a life of quiet peace and love.

[RADER]

There is a restaurant in southern Wisconsin that my wife and I like to go on Fridays.
I often see the same three people come in; Father and Mother both in their 50's
and a CD in her late 20 or early 30's.
She always wears jeans, sometimes cut offs, a light top, and you can definitely
see the bra lines, and if you look carefully the forms in side them.
I think I am the only one that noticed the manly facial features in her face and the large feet
for a girl. She always wears flats as she is over 6' high. I think it is great that she got her
family to be OK with going out with her. And I wish her the best of luck.
I guess I am a little envy of her being able to go out anytime she wants to.
Rader

[Pexetta]

Out grocery shopping last week I became irritated because a tall woman was blocking my access to the washing powder. Then I thought, 'That's interesting, she's wearing the same shoes as the sister I noticed in this same shop two weeks ago. Perhaps they weren't such a bad choice after all.' Then I realised that she was the same person.

So for me at least, I'm only good at noticing fellow travellers when I'm actively looking out for them. The rest of the time, when I'm not particularly concerned about putting people into a gender category - like when they're in my way - my brain makes a quick decision so it can get on with the important business of wishing they'd move. Even when it's previously classed them as a sister.

[ReineD]

Wow, Pexetta, I'm impressed that you can remember a pair of shoes that a stranger wore two weeks ago. I can't even remember what I wore yesterday. :p

[Pexetta]

Wow, Pexetta, I'm impressed that you can remember a pair of shoes that a stranger wore two weeks ago. I can't even remember what I wore yesterday. :p

I'm constantly on the lookout for any item of clothing that can be considered ambiguous and could be adopted for my real world look. If it falls into that category, I remember it.

[ReineD]

I'm constantly on the lookout for any item of clothing that can be considered ambiguous and could be adopted for my real world look. If it falls into that category, I remember it.

LOL. I hear you. I tend to remember uncomfortable discussions with my SO, almost word for word, much to her chagrin. :p

This wasn't a criticism, just a reminder that we all have a wonderful memory for things that are important to us. :hugs:

[STACY B]

I'm going to bring out this older thread instead of starting a new one . But I am not 100% postive but I swear I saw a sister the super wally mart this morning ? She had on a killer skirt an long coat an knee high boots at the self check out counter . I saw her walk by an I watched her walk away down the row an when I went to check out she was at the self check but I was behind her . She had the phone up to her ear an I couldn't hear her talking ,,A tactic we all know so well to cover the face !! LOL But if she was one of us I tell her as far as what I saw she look great . Thats the trick with cold weather you can layer lots of clothes an it makes it harder to really see good . I just thought I would fire up this thread !

[Lorileah]

But I am not 100% postive but I swear I saw a sister the super wally mart this morning ? She had on a killer skirt an long coat an knee high boots

Wow I saw her at Target at lunch! Who I saw looked great and she was with her SO and a small child. Taller than I am...great look, flawless makeup...baritone voice...and confident.

[STACY B]

Wow I saw her at Target at lunch! Who I saw looked great and she was with her SO and a small child. Taller than I am...great look, flawless makeup...baritone voice...and confident.



No ,,, If I had seen you ,,, You would be the first to know ,,, Cuz I would have given you an Big hug an Maybe a Kiss ,,,That's the way us Don't care Sisstahs ROLL !!! LOL

[Bonnie84]

I know we've seen a number of crossdressers while at work. I work armed security for the feds, and there just seems to be a fair number of TG folk in the area, and we're not even near Dupont Circle. There's always a few where it's "too close to call." But there have been some fully confirmed, as we have to check IDs of those parking in our garage. In those cases we know it's a male (Legally speaking) in a skirt.

I also remember riding the Metro home one afternoon and there was a rather young CD on the train. If she wasn't on the phone I probably would have congratulated her. She surely has more guts than I do. I know I couldn't do something like that alone and certainly not in the middle of the day in broad day light.

[KimberlyJean]

Stacy, wasn't me. But I think I saw a sister today, it was just how she was dressed and the way she acted that made me think she was one of us. She was wearing 4" heels, lace tights, black pencil skirt and a red top/jacket. She was going into a salon off of Pass road.

[Silmaril]

I have a much better gay-dar than my SO. We've discussed this. :p I'm also quite adept at reading gender cues accurately ... there is a range in people's abilities to read things.

While I have to give the nod to WildAboutHeels point that it's difficult to claim 100% certainty just by looking, I also agree with Reine's point that some people are more intuitive. I would be the anti-example to her theory that CDs tend to be less discerning: I find I am typically much more tuned in than most people I know, and I attribute it to my empathy as an insider.

I have spotted sisters out and about numerous times. Interestingly, the only ones I can say I am 100% certain about are those who were clearly so self conscious about being out in public that they drew my attention: looking around too much, altering their course awkwardly to avoid encountering people, etc. It was instructive for me: move with confidence, and no matter how much you may be feeling it, don't allow your sense of fear to direct your actions.

...which may be good advice for life in general, now that I see it in type. :battingeyelashes:

[LadyPilot]

In all my life I have never noticed a crossdresser or transsexual person. Not out and about in town, not in bars or clubs. I guess people pass more often than they think :)
Me neither! Although I would really like too. And yes, I am always looking at people I do enjoy seeing women wearing nylons and I love seeing bra outlines through clothing. Nonetheless, I beleive that I would be so openminded towards anyone, something that my wife has taught me and I love her for it!

[Ressie]

I've been suspicious of a few women I've seen while shopping but after further observation I find that they are real GGs indeed! I would never try using the Crocodile Dundee test! Ouch! Dainty hands are the first indicator.

[STACY B]

I've been suspicious of a few women I've seen while shopping but after further observation I find that they are real GGs indeed! I would never try using the Crocodile Dundee test! Ouch! Dainty hands are the first indicator.



Maybe I should not say this might start a Poo--Poo -- storm ,, But what could you say ? I mean CDs are so Dam Spooky anyway ,, Cuz for the most part they don't want to be outed ,,Because if they did they would really be some kind of TS--TG--Or other gender bender that didn't care . Some CDs won't mind but they are the FEW !! I know what I would say ,,, WOW You sure look great !! An treat her just like a Lady no matter how she looked to everyone else !

[Julie Gaum]

I only know of one I was sure about because it was so obvious (Commented on that event in an old post) but today was interesting and confusing. I was waiting in the car dealer's lounge for my car to be serviced. Bought a bite to eat so, naturally, was looking at other car owners. A "lady" sat down to wait. She had no makeup on or earrings and her hair was much shorter than mine and with a bald spot. I would guess about 75 years old. Did wear a lady's wrist watch and one ring. Wore tan pants not tight and an old female shirt of sorts. Longish face (not feminine features) and wrinkled as were her hands. About 5 feet 7 inches of about 160 pounds but no gut in evidence. I had to believe she was a GG because, and this will make someone mad, if she were a CD she would likely have tried to pass while this woman did nothing to at least attempt to look female. When her name was called she got up quickly (sandles, no nail polish) and I heard her answer the call in a high voice. Her walk wasn't a waddle. I thought to myself "D--n, would a CD ever present herself so badly?" Did make the time go faster. Point of story? Even females can be hard to spot.
Julie

[Jana]

That's a good question, Carly. I'm always looking, but to this day, I've never seen anyone else in public. Ever!

[I Am Paula]

I drive thru' the campus of a HUGE university almost daily (it is the downtown core). There seem to be quite a few trans folks, and a lot of people just letting their freak flag fly. I'm glad to see they are so accepted. I see guys with beards and leather jackets wearing pleated skirts, fishnets, and heels. The next generation is going to be alot less uptight. The town is so accepting it doesn't need a gay bar, everybody just hangs out together.-Celeste

[Sometimes Steffi]

I'm pretty sure that I saw one in the mall in Minneapolis when I was there. She was kind ov overdressed for the mall, and somewhat unsteady (or un feminine) on her heals.

I also saw several the second time I went to the Renn Fest.

But I'd never approach them. It's like assuming a woman is pregnant. Being wrong would be terribly embarrassing for both of you.

What I've seen much more often is women presenting as female that appear to have some male characteristics, like a square jaw or overly muscular biceps or calves. Sometimes it's something inate that I can't verbalize, but I can visualize.

[Ressie]

Years ago I came face to face with a CD in the women's dept. Standing about 12 feet away I looked right at her and knew. I looked away (because staring is rude) and within seconds when I looked up she was gone. Never to be seen again, she knew I read her and I assume she was frightened.

The last CD I spotted while shopping walked with such confidence that hardly anyone would have thought.

[kristinacd55]

I take a class on learning how to do tax returns at a mall and was in class Thursday morning at a nearby mall. Next door is a massage/nail place and I look up and whoop there she is! All done up in boots and a nice outfit with her wig nicely done as well. So, I recognized her right away.

[JamieQ]

Yes, today in a "Dollar type" store. At first I did not notice anything but a good looking, super skinny woman in a real short dress and black boots. After a few seconds I figure her out but she looked really good. The dress was way to short, way too much of bare legs showing and a man voice at the cashier. If not for that first two...I think the thought might not have even came across my mind. I probably wear my skirts a bit too short too for my age.

[linda allen]

It's funny that this thread should be near the top again today. Yesterday I was out shopping and I saw what could well have been a crossdresser walking across the parking lot towards her car. The problem was, I only got a short glance at her and I'm not one to turn around and follow someone, male or female so I can't be sure.

In the short look I got at her, there was nothing specific saying "crossdresser", it was just the general package didn't look quite right. If she had been standing still, I might have been able to make a better judgment.

That, of course, is why I try to keep moving if I'm out.