You either DO or you DON'T.

[Wildaboutheels]

Know any females [real live GGs] with an "unfemale" walk OR voice? Maybe both. I certainly hope you've never wondered if... just maybe... they are really a CDing male?

And the way someone walks might be a little more subjective than the "sound" of a female voice perhaps?

[Veronnie2]

I have to chuckle here, My daughter has a raspy type, sort of unfemminine voice and my voice is actually softer and more femme sounding. She is all girl and has the body I would love to have, but that voice just drives me nuts. Veronnie2

[JenniferUK]

My sister is full of piercings and to my knowledge has never worn a skirt. I think we got the wrong genes lol

J

[Kate Simmons]

I know quite a few women who have deep voices as well as some who walk like men. This is why to me everyone is an individual.:)

[Beverley Sims]

I get by better than some girls so deportment is about 70% confidence 80% and vouce 30%, so I live with that.

[Lorileah]

There are so many ways women walk I wonder what exactly you mean here. I don't know any (?) women who walk like what people here describe as a woman's walk. You know the boom...thrust...boom...thrust hip sway. I see women walk like they are light on their feet and some who look like they are stomping bugs.

As far as voice...I would love to sound like Lauren Bacall or Patricia Neal. Even Katheryn Hepburn. I would take that over the squeaky Minnie mouse voices that seem to fill today's pop rock songs

[MicheleCooper]

There are so many ways women walk I wonder what exactly you mean here. I don't know any (?) women who walk like what people here describe as a woman's walk. You know the boom...thrust...boom...thrust hip sway. I see women walk like they are light on their feet and some who look like they are stomping bugs.



Ugh!! I work in a real estate office and one women in her late 40s who must have just learned how to walk in heels, but she walks like a line backer of the Pittsburgh Steelers. Not wearing heels she either sounds like an elephant in combat boots or does the lazy walk (when they do not pick up their feet and make that scuffing noise with their shoes - rather hear a child scream bloody murder than to hear that).

[sometimes_miss]

As some of us get old and develop arthritis, we all kind of walk the same way; slowly, often with a limp. Male or female, you can tell we're hurting.

[Foxglove]

There are so many ways women walk I wonder what exactly you mean here.

Right. One of the hottest girls I ever knew walked like a duck. When she was walking down the hall in school, the guys would be going, "Quack! Quack!"
Didn't change their feelings for her, though. And she knew that. Which is why she never took offense.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have known a number of women with deep, raspy voices (sometimes caused by smoking unfortunately.) However, they still sound female because of their enunciation, language they use, gestures they use while talking etc.

[linda allen]

I dated a woman for a year or so who had a deep voice and walked like a man. She was a relatively small female and I can vouch for the fact that she was all female and not a crossdresser.

We all come in different sizes and shapes, high and low voices, and different mannerisms.

[Wildaboutheels]

It's starting to appear that some people might oughta be a little more carerful about "clocking other CDers" out in the RW perhaps...

[JamieQ]

I been really watching 40+ men and women walk. Sometimes I can barely tell a difference, if at all. Then some have a definite woman's walk. What i notice most is that it seems like women swing thier arms more than men.The younger girls seem to really get the hind end swinging alot. For girls, is it mainly genetics (girl's center of gravity), conditioning or a combination of both? Im going with the combination scenario, but just a guess.

Voice, thats another thing. Yet I believe "most" women sound like women there are quite a few who have a quite masculine voice. I figure that was from hormone imbalances, but again its just a guess.

[ReineD]

Wilde, you're engaging in stereotypes.

Click on the link below, then click on the "lines" radio button at the bottom so you can better see the walk. Now slide the top slider all the way to the right. This is a very feminine walk, but it certainly is not typical. If this is what you have in mind, then it does not surprise me that you might think average woman's walk is "unfemale". :p

http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html

Most men and women walk somewhere close to the middle, with many men slightly to the left, and many women slightly to the right.

As to the voice, there's a huge range and a woman who smokes will have a husky voice, but like anything else, what we hear is informed by what we see. If the other gender cues align, and the voice is mid-range, then this person's gender will not come into question.

[LelaK]

I sound different in my head from what I sound like on a tape recorder. So I don't know if this is true for others who would hear me, but I think I can sound like Carol Channing without difficulty. It seems to help to have a big smile while impersonating her voice. I've never asked anyone to listen to me talk like her, but I love it.

[I Am Paula]

My former gardiner was a very butch lesbian. She walked like John Wayne, and talked like Tom Waits. Card carrying vagina owner. Could haul a wheelbarrow full of rocks up the stairs. Sometimes we don't need to know any more.

[sissystephanie]

I know quite a few women who have deep voices as well as some who walk like men. This is why to me everyone is an individual.:)

I have to totally agree with Kate! I have a deep male voice myself, but I have known a number of women who had even deeper voices!! And I have also known many women who walked like a man. But who really cares?

[ReineD]

My former gardiner was a very butch lesbian. She walked like John Wayne, and talked like Tom Waits. Card carrying vagina owner. Could haul a wheelbarrow full of rocks up the stairs. Sometimes we don't need to know any more.

She may have been F2M, and would have been very happy to know that you thought she was masculine. I've met several masculine women (they really do not like any semblance of femininity within themselves) who at one point in their lives had started down the F2M path but, because they did not want to leave their lesbian communities, decided instead to honor both: their female bodies (by not getting mastectomies or penile implants), and their inner masculinity. This takes a lot of courage, in my opinion.

[shayleetv]

When my daughter was in the sixth grade she had a friend whose mother was not very feminine looking. She had broad shoulders and narrow hips and her waist was the same size as her hips. Her voice was lovely and very feminine. When she walked she looked like "Yosemity Sam" the cartoon. Her daughter became the beauty queen for the city and was first runner up in the Miss Utah pageant. I guess she didn't inherit her mother's genes. Her mother was the most masculine looking woman I have ever known. Mother Nature sometimes has a mean sense of humor, women who look like men and men who look like women with their trying to do so.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Ill just drop this in , you ever think about us we dont come .....standred issue,..... we are so mixed up youll have more probs trying to figger us out,, who are we,, intersexed of cause.

youll see me as male on first look yet youll see our walk is different manirsims our demeaner how we interact with others is that with male as well as female....yes,Mam,

I dare you to try & nail us down pat, it wont work so would you say oh look a dresser, or trans, well sorry i dont fit ether, ,

Oh, hi how are you im pretty good thank you & you, well yes its a lovely day , oh yes for sure, are you a ...... well no im intersexed....., OH....... ooops, see what happens, you thought i was ...... well im not,

yet there are many features that apper the same, but ...but .... you look so male apart from my breasts please stop looking at me there,.

Then again i dress in overalls do building work, oh a male both ears with earrings still have breasts, you get the point ...a....& my friends still call me noeleena......they got that right, no matter what i wear,

...noeleena...

[Rogina B]

I just worked the River CityGLBT Pride Festival for my UU church.8 hrs of people watching from our booth. No one knows for sure what someone has in their panties...and a person is a person,no matter what!

[linda allen]

I'll add that I once worked with a woman who had such a nice sexy walk, that I would sometimes send her to fetch something just so I could watch her walk away. :heehee:

[Sharon B.]

Know one that her Adams apple stands out more than mine.

[Jennifer B]

I know a Woman who has a large Adams apple, large hands, she's tall, has no chest, no hips, skinny backside, quite a jaw and talks with a fairly resonant voice. She's a lovely lady very stylish. After I'd met her a few times, I was very nearly convinced that she was a crossdresser. There were so many "clues". So much of her seemed so Male.
Then I met her husband and two kids and they discussed trying for another baby. So I shut up. Women seem to come in so many different forms, it's impossible to tell and in this case I was seeing what I perhaps wanted to see.

[ReineD]

Everyone is dissecting masculine-looking women that they know or have seen. I'm a culprit too, since I attempted earlier to describe some former F2Ms that I've met in recent years. I did this to try to point out we are not all born with unambiguous gender identities or physical conditions. But I did not clarify my point, so I will now.

Over the years, there have been multiple threads about how masculine some GGs are and whether the OPs say it out loud or not, the intent is to imply that (some) CDers are more feminine than even some GGs. Actually, members do say this out loud quite frequently in this forum.

Everyone here understands that not only are there people who enjoy presenting in the gender opposite than birth, there are also people who have ambiguous or opposite gender identities; they either feel a mix of feminine and masculine attributes, or they feel they were born in the wrong body. In addition to this there are many people who have various biological intersex conditions. The physically masculine looking women I see described here, with adam's apples, no hips, small breasts, large hands, etc, sound as if they may have one of the following intersex conditions:

Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/cah) (CAH)
Turner Syndrome (http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/turner)
Progestin Induced Virilization (http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/progestin)
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/ais) (AIS)

Here is a frequency chart for people who are not XX, not XY, or who are born with various intersex conditions:
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

I don't know if ISNA lists all the possible intersex conditions, or if there are more. But, yes, there are intersex women who look masculine, intersex men who look feminine, just as there are people born with a number of other physical anomalies. So should this be any news to anyone here?

[Wildaboutheels]

Could it be that the entire "thrust" of this thread is to maybe get PEOPLE to STOP looking at or watching other PEOPLE AND MAKING SILLY ASSUMPTIONS simply because of what they are wearing or how they walk or stand or talk? What you see is not necessarily what you might get as for what is on the inside. The spectrum of variety is endless.

Unless you have an actual conversation with another "uncommon" person and they TELL you how they identify themselves, you can't know for sure. People here keep claiming over and over how good they might be at spotting other CDers possibly gives the [already scared enough] rookies the impression that Joe Doe public is looking to bust CDers which simply is NOT true.

[ReineD]

I see what you're saying, Wilde, but the responses have been more about describing how masculine some women look ... in detail. Masculine GGs are a rather common theme in this forum and even when members don't say outright they look more feminine than these GGs, the comments still feel like a comparison.

As to not knowing someone's gender unless they tell you, I disagree with this. Gender is apparent for most people. Unless a birth male has been on HRT for awhile and has had FFS, generally you can tell especially when there is a direct interaction. I've only once been taken by surprise, when a young transitioned TS (in the ladies room) came right out and told me she was a birth male. I never would have guessed. She was about 5' 6" and had transitioned young. Most transitioning TSs go for FFS, and there is a reason for this. They know that male facial bone structure is different than a birth female's, and they correct this. Also, even if a GG doesn't spend any time on makeup, hair, stylish clothes, and she has a rather stocky body, I can still tell that she is female. Have there been women who looked so masculine that I haven't immediately known their gender? Yes, I'm sure there must have been (I don't remember though), but even then, there might have been a physical reason as I mentioned earlier.

I dunno. I just think it is offensive when CDers (or anyone else for that matter) say how masculine GGs look. It's like sitting on the sidelines at a Special Olympics and making comments about everyone's disabilities.

[Rogina B]

And in New England and across America,there is a "breed" of women "that get it done",no matter the physical task.These people give little thought to their femininity as they go about their tasks. They develop muscles from hard work,and often their complexion suffers from the exposure to the elements.Some of them don't want to soak in a bubble bath..But what they do have,is female genitalia inside their workclothes!

[Jennifer B]

I don't know if ISNA lists all the possible intersex conditions, or if there are more. But, yes, there are intersex women who look masculine, intersex men who look feminine, just as there are people born with a number of other physical anomalies. So should this be any news to anyone here?

Agreed.


Could it be that the entire "thrust" of this thread is to maybe get PEOPLE to STOP looking at or watching other PEOPLE AND MAKING SILLY ASSUMPTIONS...

Quite.

But I also agree that...


Gender is apparent for most people.

The point I'm trying to illustrate, is that consciously or unconsciously we all project our biases to some degree. So whilst to anyone else the Woman I talked about would never be looked on as anything other than a GG. For most people her gender was apparent. I thought otherwise until I realised (or was forced to realise) that I was being judgmental and from a biased perspective.

All Women are different and sometimes we see what we want to see.