Misunderstanding Transsexualism

[Kathryn Martin]

“Sorry but a TG [meaning TS]is just a GUY that crossdresses and decides to cut his male parts off and make a "FAKE" vagina and take female hormones. At the end of the day you are still a guy. It's the whole thing of putting lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig. “ Posted on this forum

“ ….if a 21 year old women for significant medical reasons requested a hysterectomy, everything would be done to prevent her from doing so. Women of that age should not be rendered infertile unless catastrophic illness requires it.” Director of Billing, Nova Scotia Health Services
At first blush these two statements have nothing in common. They appear entirely unrelated.


The background on which these statements were made is that both in the first and the second statement the person spoken about is transsexual. In both instances they were made to justify a viewpoint that denies the reality of a transsexual condition. In both cases the term “transgender” was used to shift the focus from biological sex to gender. The second statement was used to deny billing coverage for a fully transitioned FtM transsexual who required a hysterectomy for medical reasons.


At the heart of the most devastating misunderstanding of transsexuality is this denial of my reality and the reality of this comparatively small number of individuals within the population who are in fact transsexuals. In the new version of the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) the authors have for the first time created an exit point for transsexual individuals. It is now recognized that once transition and at least one surgery (penectomy, vaginoplasty in a natal male, mastectomy, phalloplasty in a natal female) or consistent cross-sex hormone treatment (for instance in cases of denial of surgery for medical reasons) has been achieved transsexuals are considered healed. One of the following must be found to allow for a diagnosis:


· a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]


· a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender



· a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)


together with one of the other criteria. In addition the following two conditions must be found:


a. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration;


b. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, or with a significantly increased risk of suffering, such as distress or disability


Coming back to the two statements above, they both illustrate a complete ignorance of the condition, and an ill informed or deliberate and therefore malevolent denial of the nature of the condition.



Politically, this expressed in the “transgender” movement as the “we are all the same” theory which is built on the conflation of sex and gender. They say that because “if I say I am a woman than it is true and needs to be respected” no matter what the actual status of the person is they are entitled to the same protection as woman, either cis-gendered or women with a transsexual history. The result is in fact “women” with penises in the changing rooms of sports facilities that have penises. This was recently the case with Coleen Francis (http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/transgender-woman-told-leave-womens-locker-room/nSWT4/) who is transgendered on a low dose patch no surgery (that is she has a penis) and missing regular and frequent sex as she explained here (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1Apd7sDrKQwJ:www.okcupid.com/profile/faeraven%3Fcf%3Dregular+faeraven+okcupid&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari).
Roseanne Barr twittered that ”if she has a penis she is not allowed in” and has been viciously attacked by the Transgender Movement for being “transphobic”. One of the most bizarre responses was : “A penis attached to a man in a women's bathroom is extremely different than a penis attached to a woman. Get over yourself.”

It is for this reason that most transsexuals do not belong to the transgender umbrella and take steps to explain why they have no interest in being part of this umbrella.


We are not transgender and our condition is not gender related. We have an innate birth gender which has not changed and our incongruent bodies have been brought into alignment with our gender.

[Inna]

Not an easy task at hand to awaken the societal hierarchy to yet another, new point of view.

Also, the criterion for absoluteness is quite vast, in certain aspects it is in my opinion almost unsolvable. Great example is the gym scene with non-transitioned yet transitioning Twoman.
In my perspective, she has no place in the womans side of gym unless she can conceal the parts which are somewhat off putting to another woman, just simply out of respect. I have a lot of extremely respectful loving and understanding GG friends. They always treat me like one of the GGs I am. But if we did go to the showers together I seriously doubt that they would be nonchalant about it, and it would definitely be somewhat at least slightly touchy subject. "Oh my, get it???? TOUCHY"

Hands down though, transexuality is curable, after which person finally gains balance of self, congruity of body and mind.

As I have updated my website to reflect my newly found understanding, even though it speaks to Transwoman around the world, now on the front page it welcomes everyone with the heading "NEWWOMAN" as in renewed, reborn, yet woman just the same. But I am also making a point in keeping the NEW separate and fainter then WOMAN, well pronounced, strong, direct!

As to transgender, I suppose the term became mainstream because it focuses on gender and that even though transsexuals gender is innate and what changes is their bodies, still, gender is at core of expression. We transition our bodies to reflect correct gender we already are and not the sexual preference which ever that may be.
Transgender is also much friendlier word since it doesn't allude to sexuality, and unfortunately society at large takes in the information at face value. So transsexual means sexual and transgender means gender.

Long ways to go, but don't forget, long ways we had forged so far!!!!!

[KellyJameson]

This is a subject that weighs heavily on my mind.

I do not think of crossdressers commiting suicide because they crossdress but I do of transsexuals and transmen due to the experience and consequences of being MtF or FtM.

There are so many obstacles preventing people from arriving to an understanding and resolution and often before this happens they have destroyed themselves in one way or another.

The concept of the umbrella for me is meaningless but it does possibly serve as temporary protection for transsexuals who are still moving toward self understanding and self acceptance.

There is a great deal of fear and confusion a person often must work through and for some peope they must move sideways toward the truth because to confront it directly is just to terrifying.

Also resources are different from person to person, some have money and a family that supports them but many have nothing and are often homeless with terrible past trauma from abuse.

My first concern is to protect my own kind because I have the empathy and compassion that comes from having "been there done that" and know how fragile a transsexuals existence is.

Hate, ignorance and cruelty have been with us since the beginning of time but if we dissociate ourselves from others we will not be able to discover are own that are hidden in those others who are deserving of our protection.

If we build walls around us we may keep those who have a right to and need of entry from finding the door.

Within the crossdressers section there are distinct "flavors" of crossdressers but every once in a while I read someones words and think they need to be spending time in the transsexuals section because you can feel their pain and how lost they are.

This goes beyond shame and embarrassment because they have may have moral qualms about their behavior experiencing it as a possible perversion.

I had followed the thread with interest in the example you have used and it is clear to me this person feels shame in their crossdressing and this shame was being projected onto you shown by their concern about what others think. If there was no shame there would be no concern and so no attack on others. Crossdressers who accept their crossdressing have no shame so no need to use insults but will defend their right to crossdress rationally.

Crossdressing done by men is about escape from being men into the world of the feminine but always this is done from a males perspective so it is femininity with a twist but regardless they are leaving one place in their minds to go to another place in their minds but they still live with a sense of the self and identity they were born with that was socially complemented and supported.

They leave one self for another and than back again but there is no desperate search for a unknown and unexperienced self.

They do not experience the existential crisis of non existence that in my opinion follows living but never being born because you were born without a body to live through so were prevented by self (as body) and society of ever experiencing and becoming self as a whole person (holistic)

You stay numb without ability of becoming fully self actualized.

The pain of crossdressing is completely different than the pain a transsexual experiences and it is in this pain where the truth lives.

There is a craziness, a type of intensity that is a unique form of suffering that the transsexual experiences that is absent in the crossdresser but it takes time to identify it because many expressions of pain appear to be caused by the same thing.

This intensity may be explosive or it may be quiet and hidden but it is still the same thing expressed in two different ways, it comes from the same source.

I think we have to be very careful not to leave anyone out in the cold alone with this pain or we will all have blood on our hands.

[ReneeT]

OK - as a TS woman and the parent of a cis daughter, i have a real problem with a penis being in a female locker room, no matter who it is attached to. Colleen Francis is being selfish and inconsiderate to use a gendered public venue in this fashion. While we are right to ask for and expect consideration from society, we owe it to them as well. Colleen Francis gives me a bad name.

[docrobbysherry]

Well reasoned, Inna! Even I can sense a difference in the terms; transsexual and transgender. Tho they may technically mean the same thing?

[melissaK]

OK - as a TS woman and the parent of a cis daughter, i have a real problem with a penis being in a female locker room, no matter who it is attached to. . . . . While we are right to ask for and expect consideration from society, we owe it to them as well. . . . .

Yes, Renee I agree with you. I thought I might be joining you in arguing on a slippery slope that leads to "separate but equal" - which in the area of race is considered actionable discrimination. But unisex restrooms are not the norm in our country, we are conditioned against it. It is an area where Constitutional protections against gender based discrimination are ignored and "separate but equal" still prevails. And the rest rooms are seldom ever equal. (Think lines at woman's room vs lines at men's room at any sporting or concert arena). But I also think there is zero support to move all restrooms to unisex restrooms.

While logical purism says we should demand equality in restrooms, our Republic is not politically structured for this to happen. This is a situation where pragmatism has the floor. The Colleen's need to channel energies where they are going to pay off. I think the better approach is to ask for gender neutral, one at a time user, specialty restrooms. It most certainly is a compromise, but perhaps its one of necessity, like in the area of handicapped access - ADA - issues. Handicapped persons want the "same" access as a non-handicapped persons, but often we gotta do it different. And maybe for those of us with incomplete transitions, that's what we have to do, we gotta do it different.

[max]

Well reasoned, Inna! Even I can sense a difference in the terms; transsexual and transgender. Tho they may technically mean the same thing?

You've been here five years and you think transsexual is synonymous with transgender? Surely you jest Sherry!

[Badtranny]

Oh Kat, our pet topic yes?

I hope this thread doesn't get overrun with non-transitoners, they seem to be a sensitive lot lately.

Anyhoo, I think you may be surprised that I don't disagree with you. This Coleen broad is indeed giving us pre-ops a bad name and I'm not sure what should be done about it. I am also a fully transitioned legal female who has yet to get the final cut and there is no way in stinky hell that I would let my castrated pickle dangle freely in a ladies locker room. Even people who know I'm trans already assume that little issue has been resolved and the only people who know the truth are my close friends, people on this forum, and the dudes who have sex with me.

Intellectually I understand the legal rule and why she's allowed in women's spaces but since I am only human I do have to admit that it creeps me out when a pre-op T-girl who admittedly likes women, wants to literally hang out in women's locker rooms. What do we do with people like that? I don't know but it sure makes a hell of an argument for SRS as the delineation.

[Kathryn Martin]

Oh Kat, our pet topic yes?

Just to clarify, Misty, I have no animosity towards transgender or gender variant persons. In fact, I believe that if we were to recognize the nature of that condition there would be much that could be done to alleviate the condition.

My OP was about the pervasive denial or ignorance in society that uses our bodies as a weapon against us. As you can see from both quotes above the issue is the assignment of gender based on sex. In the end this means that we are viewed as men in women's bodies or women in men's bodies as the case may be post op. This is the devastating result of this misunderstanding.

Politically, this misunderstanding has been used by the transgender umbrella movement to say: "we are all the same" and pointed to us saying if these men in women's bodies are given privileges to women's spaces which you cannot deny us (men expressing femininity) because? "we are all the same". That is why I keep pointing out the difference and am trying to educate people on this difference. We are the only ones that get hurt by this misunderstanding.

[Pink Person]

On the one hand you want people to believe that transsexuals are born, not made. On the other hand you suggest that transsexuals are not real unless they are made in an operating room. If you had a third hand then you might be able to present a position that wasn't self-defeating.

If there are only two kinds of people in the world then you are neither of them. Congratulations, I guess.

P.S. Sex is a specific gender characteristic. Gender is a general formal and functional characteristic that includes specific sex attributes. They are not the same thing but are related to each other in the sense that the meaning of one term is included in the larger meaning of the other term. For example, femaleness is a feminine quality. Femininity is not necessarily a female quality.

[Inna]

WOW! Pink, common, I so thought that your intellectual capacity would disallow such speculation.

Transsexual individual is transsexual, simply because he or she is born with birth defect of non-congruence between innate gender marker and bodies external expression. In laymen terms "screwed-up".

Then the task at hand, on one hand, is to achieve congruence, how do we do it? Well the easiest would be to make brain think he or she really is who they appear to be, well it had been tried, the result......not so good.
Then on the other hand body modification is performed and VOILE! she is she and he is he, visually, semi functionally less the birthing part in M2F.

On the third hand my friend, once the CORRECTIVE SURGERY had been performed, such person now is NO LONGER transexual, but a member of one of the gender groups.

So, on the forth hand, to give you some insight, transexuals are not made, human beings are born with a TRANSSEXALITY ILLNESS, then they are cured of it by CORRECTIVE INTERVENTION!

Still boggles my mind that on this here forum we must explain..............................are you really surprised why society has such a hard time?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[EnglishRose]

Ah, so again we are fighting within. As far as I'm aware, Colleen for one was NOT dangling anything around. Her non-cis-normativity with regard to her looks seems to be what triggered someone to say "that's a man!" and several women who use those facilities have come out in support of her.

What the hell do you expect other full-time transsexual women to do? Use the mens' room?!

[IamSara]

As someone who is just coming to terms with her transsexualism, I agree with Renee that out of courtesy to the other women in a locker room I would not go into it. Until I am as Inna so aptly put it I am woman not Transsexual. One thing I have learned from being in therapy for the last 8 months and reading not only on this forum but everything I can get my hands on is that there is a huge difference between transgender and transsexual. I am no where as schooled as you ladies are in this as I am still struggling just to understand myself and still trying to understand the "screwed up" condition of my mind and body. I spend much of my free time studying us and to some extent it just confuses me more. I can understand how the "general" public has a hard time understanding, let alone accepting us.

So Kathryn thanks for starting this thread I learn a lot from you all both good and bad and appreciate it very MUCH.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If there are only two kinds of people in the world then you are neither of them. Congratulations, I guess.................

P.S. Sex is a specific gender characteristic. Gender is a general formal and functional characteristic that includes specific sex attributes. They are not the same thing but are related to each other in the sense that the meaning of one term is included in the larger meaning of the other term. For example, femaleness is a feminine quality. Femininity is not necessarily a female quality.

Actually there are two types of people in the world...people that think there are two types of people, and people that don't think are two types of people...ahem

Pink in your last line, the thing that strikes me as relevant is that having a DICK is male quality , not a masculine quality... this is ESPECIALLY true if you ENJOY using it....if you actively want to keep it...

Being born with a penis doesn't make you a male...transsexual women are born with penises obviously..

if you want to transition and keep your penis, it raises some common sense issues...and if coleen francis had any common sense at all, he/she would stay out the women's locker room...

I don't believe in the idea of "true" transsexuals, but i do beleive there are people that are ts and people that are not ts.....in other words there are men and women

gender queer people are faced with a unique problem...they are forced to pick a gender to "live" in, and the other gender is expressed but not lived.....its just the way it is...we are biogically set to m/f, we socially, culturally, INSTINCTIVELY live as m/f...its just the way it is... no amount of education or legal rights is going to change that..

gender impacts important things like legality of marraige and insurance coverage, and it impacts totally unimportant things like using a locker room access (only an AXXhole would make such a big deal over this)... sometimes common sense is all you need to know "what's what".....

[Stephenie S]

Please don't dangle your penis in my locker room!

OK. I do feel this way. Heck, I got freaked out when I found a urinal in a unisex bathroom in a convenience store.

That said, I have been in many women's locker rooms and let me explain. Nobody dangles anything in women's locker rooms. I have never seen any other woman's privates in a locker room and no women has ever seen mine. Women are private. We dress, shower, and use the toilet in private! If you dangle ANYthing in my face in a women's locker room I'm gonna turn around and look somewhere else PDQ. I regularly go to the gym with my BFF and we keep our eyes elsewhere. We shower in our bathing suits and there is a curtain on the cubicle.

Is this anything like the restroom debacle? I have NO idea if the women in the cubicle next to mine has a penis or not and I don't want to know.

Saying a man has no business in a women's locker room is fraught with definition difficulty. What IS a man? Says who?

Keep your business private and I don't care.

Stephie

[ReneeT]

Yes, Renee I agree with you. I thought I might be joining you in arguing on a slippery slope that leads to "separate but equal" - which in the area of race is considered actionable discrimination. But unisex restrooms are not the norm in our country, we are conditioned against it. It is an area where Constitutional protections against gender based discrimination are ignored and "separate but equal" still prevails. And the rest rooms are seldom ever equal. (Think lines at woman's room vs lines at men's room at any sporting or concert arena). But I also think there is zero support to move all restrooms to unisex restrooms.

While logical purism says we should demand equality in restrooms, our Republic is not politically structured for this to happen. This is a situation where pragmatism has the floor. The Colleen's need to channel energies where they are going to pay off. I think the better approach is to ask for gender neutral, one at a time user, specialty restrooms. It most certainly is a compromise, but perhaps its one of necessity, like in the area of handicapped access - ADA - issues. Handicapped persons want the "same" access as a non-handicapped persons, but often we gotta do it different. And maybe for those of us with incomplete transitions, that's what we have to do, we gotta do it different.

Melissa, I am not referring to restrooms, which allow for privacy. As a TS woman who has not yet had GRS, my penis and I use female restrooms all the time. I am specifically referring locker rooms, where privacy is difficult, if not impossible, to secure


You've been here five years and you think transsexual is synonymous with transgender? Surely you jest Sherry!

You've been here 4 months and you make comments like that?

If you spend a bit of time researching the topic you will find that there is much confusion over the use of the term "transgender". The most common use isas an umbrella term for all individuals whose gender identity does not match their chromosomal gender. It is also used, less commonly, to refer to those who are not cis-gender but not TS. This is a field that until recently has not had much attention and the terminology is evolving. So give Sherry a break!

[Michelle.M]

Kathryn, as usual you've eloquently expressed some very thought-provoking ideas! I always love reading what you have to say. If I may add my comments -


In both instances they were made to justify a viewpoint that denies the reality of a transsexual condition.

You've just put your finger directly on the wound! THIS is the fundamental point to be wrestled with in the discussion of transsexuality. Either the "transsexual condition" is a valid condition or it is not.

The LGB community successfully fought this battle (and continues to do so) in making the point that being gay or lesbian is innate. The only way a critic can justify anti-gay bias and discrimination is to assert that it's merely a lifestyle choice and nothing more.

Same for us. If our gender transition is just something we DO instead of something we ARE then medical coverage can be easily denied, and those denying the claim can do so with a clear conscience. If it's innate, then that changes the paradigm drastically. If it's a medical issue then judges, clergy and medical insurance company accountants are simply unqualified to make an assessment.


In both cases the term “transgender” was used to shift the focus from biological sex to gender.

I respectfully submit that you've got it backwards. "Sex" is all about what's between your legs. "Gender" is all about what's between your ears. This gets conflated because "sex" fits in a driver's license and a passport much more easily.

But the argument being made in these quotes is still focused on sex. That's why the discussion of body parts is valid (whether the decision is or not). Body parts can be rearranged, but the innate gender identity of a person cannot.


Coming back to the two statements above, they both illustrate a complete ignorance of the condition, and an ill informed or deliberate and therefore malevolent denial of the nature of the condition.

Ignorant, yes. Malevolent? Hmmm . . . probably not. Oh, there are definitely malevolent forces at work that are aggressively pursuing a campaign of not only denying us equality but in even denying our existence.

But not all badness is equal. There are different classes of enemies with different agendas, different tactics and different goals. Being able to identify the players helps to determine the most effective countermeasures to use.


Politically, this expressed in the “transgender” movement as the “we are all the same” theory which is built on the conflation of sex and gender.

Maybe. I'll respectfully acknowledge that you make that distinction, and if you find this helpful I'm behind you all the way. For me (and I stress that this is not to be construed as universally applicable) it's a distinction without a difference, or at least not one worth worrying about. If we are all the same we are so not because of body parts and the decisions we make with respect to them but because we share the same struggle.

Whenever I'd be serving in a combat zone we'd remind ourselves that an enemy combatant neither knows nor cares that one soldier is an infantry soldier with a rifle but the other is a company clerk with a typewriter. They both look the same, bleed the same and die the same. The bullet does not differentiate.


Roseanne Barr twittered that ”if she has a penis she is not allowed in” and has been viciously attacked by the Transgender Movement for being “transphobic”. One of the most bizarre responses was : “A penis attached to a man in a women's bathroom is extremely different than a penis attached to a woman. Get over yourself.”

I've only marginally followed Roseanne Barr's rants, so I assume the part in boldface type is her quote?

In a sense, she's right. Using her words as a litmus test, when do we ever hear of a man with a penis entering a women's bathroom? Accidentally, perhaps, or if he's drunk and doesn't know where he's going. But intentionally? No instance if that I know of. And using her words as the test, then that makes me a woman with a penis attached (for now, anyway). SHE can get over THAT!


It is for this reason that most transsexuals do not belong to the transgender umbrella and take steps to explain why they have no interest in being part of this umbrella.

Um . . . sorry, I'm really not at all interested in signing up as a soldier for the TS Liberation Front. Not that I'm just dying to be part of any umbrella or category or group or club (well, maybe, if they have good snacks and don't take attendance), but it just goes back to that distinction without a significant difference.

If we're stressing the innate birth gender difference (as opposed to the mere gender expression that can be removed and put back into the dresser drawer at the end of the day) then the point is valid - in my doctor's office, when I go get my driver's license, when I'm being denied employment. It's what I AM, not something I DO.

But if we're talking about the same general antipathy and hate we experience for just being different, than being under the umbrella is a very good thing. Even better if we're part of the LGBT (and Q, I, Q, A and everything else that follows) alphabet soup. There's strength in numbers. Roughly 1 percent of the population identifies as transgender - and what percentage of that minuscule slice is transsexual? Half? A third? Maybe even less?

On our own we have nothing but the pride of our distinction. Standing alone makes sense when we have a unique viewpoint, but not when we want to effect meaningful change.


We are not transgender

Despite all I've said I really do see your point, but like it or not until there is a better word that is more useful we're stuck with that word. Remember, not all of these words are designed to oppress us. In many cases they are merely handles that the people who are trying to help us can hold on to while we sort things out.

[Inna]

Hmmmm, yet another issue at hand within this multicolored thread. Restroom use by an obviously male looking pretransitioner or slow transitioner.

Argued continiously, I think that society, however much we despite its rigidity, has the right to demand that at least non visually intrusive presentation needs to be present.

This question is almost unanswerable, as the multitude of presentation and attitude is present. I certainly wouldn't want to put women at large through intrusive encounter in the womans bathroom with a fetishistic crossdresser right there and then. It surely would be viewed as trespassing and rightfully so.
How about transsexual woman in the midst of transition not yet a woman but also not a man anymore.......I simply don't know!

But I know this, as I was going through transition as I have stated in another thread before, I let the society to decide my place within it. And until the moment almost everyone called me maam I decided that time is now, but truth be told, the moment right before this decision was rather unnerving!

[Aprilrain]

Those of us with passing privilege would do well to remind ourselves that there was a time when we didn't have passing privilege. Those of us who have had surgery (whatever that maybe) would do well to remind ourselves that there was a time before our surgery. I do not believe Colleen was wagging her dangler around in the woman's locker room, instead she simply does not pass well and some bratty teeny boppers called her out on it. What is alarming (or at least should be!) are many of the hate filled comments from people who no nothing and do not care to know anything about transsexualism. That, folks, is what we are up against. The nuances of the meanings of esoteric words like transgender versus transsexual are lost on the general population who is more likely to choose the words FREAK or IT to describe a TS or a TG.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

April I hear you on passing priviledge...that is a tough issue...but read more about this person

..this is more than that... she is identifying as ts but is also openly male and is actively seeking partners to be male with...whether she identifies as a tg or ts is not the point...she cannot gloss over the maleness of her life..

i realize there is politically correct terminology blah blah...but read about this person...in your gut do you think she is anything like you???

then follow on and consider the implications of her claim that she is like you...

i realize labels are tough..there are grey areas... but this doesn't seem like one......

a women's locker room ?? really?? that's what we're talking about?? how can anyone possibly justify a person with a penis that is on okcupid aggressively looking for sex partners 18-60 being in a locker room that has young girls...

i am far far away from the militant of ts dogma I see on lots of sites, but this one is a no brainer and it shines a very messy light on the broader community because when this person goes against all common sense, and gets obnoxious over things that 90%+ of people are on the other side of (including most of us), it makes us all look like a bunch of fools with no common sense...

[Badtranny]

OMG I love this thread and if the circumstances were twisted just a bit, I might be saying the exact same things as April. ...and I mean the exact words and everything. Probably even the same punctuation.

HOWEVER, as the lovely and talented Kaitlyn points out, the subject is not an ideal representative for the transitioning community. I am not anti-penis, but I can guarantee you that if I were to find myself half naked with women who do NOT know my history, they would NOT see my tiny dangler.

If somebody were to surmise from my overall appearance that I was a 'man", a quick check of my ID would show otherwise. There is no question that I would be allowed in a ladies locker room. After that it is incumbent on me to do as the Romans do.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i can't argue with you Bad....heh

Sometimes there is no common sense... i guess if our friend Coleen pulled out female id its hard to argue the side i mentioned.. but it still bothers me that a person that is just so aggresively pursuing male sexuality represents me in any way...

its not that coleen likes girls...some gals like gals too..lol...

it may be unfair, but this person seems to be the type that would go into the ladies room and loudly complain that it has no urinals ...

[Aprilrain]

I agree that there is indeed a difference between those who identify somewhere in the middle and wish to live in 2 genders and the rest of us who are TS. Colleen may, in fact, be a creep but what I gather from the story is that in this particular instance she was minding her own business and just doesn't pass well. Regardless of the facts of the rest of her life this instance seems to me to be a matter of passing privilege. Thats just my take on that particular story.

I haven't had SRS and I use the woman's locker room at my gym. I have even on occasion showered there. At no time was I disrobed in public I went into a private shower stall and did my thing. I see no reason why being pre op should keep one out of a locker room. Things could be trickier for a F2M since men's locker rooms are more likely to have open showers and dudes do tend to cruise around naked or in their tighty whities.

[angpai30]

In most instances one would think that Equality would mean 50/50, but what does Equality really mean? It means the replacement of either a loss or gain on either side. In most instances the brand of Equality has been lessened over the years as the popularity of demand and receive is being taken for a ride on the honky tonk. I would like Equality as much as the next person, but in order for some machines to run the balance of refill and and fuel usages does not always match, which in these instances it is equal to what it takes to make the machine run well. Finding a balance between being transsexual and being a cis woman has not balanced out yet due to a few bubbles in the system as the fuel gauge hasn't quite been modified enough to read irregularities and in most instances of even reading the regularities in system fuel usage. So what is the point of fighting over who got to use the bathroom and who didn't? Yes, I feel for the person which is being discussed and I myself use the womens restroom. I only use it when I'm not a work, but if someone were to do that to me or find out that I was once a man or even partially still a man in the restroom I would freak and probably never go to that particular establishment again, but we all have to be at our best when using such facilites like the womens restroom because if we let our guard down just for a moment then all could go to hell and we may never recover. IMO the "Sex" of one person isn't decided until self realization and actualization is taken into account. Most try to present in a feminine manner that would allow them to enter without harrasment, but there are those who would not present and just try to be and some can't pass at all. I know one such transsexual and she is an amazing person, but to be honest she doesn't shave all that often unless she has to go to work and she's not overly feminine. She is more masculine than anything and a little over weight, yet she is still transitioning. She recently told me she is having doubts about transitioning and I accept that answer, I use her as an example because most of the time she gets sir, he or him and she hates it and the only time she gets her, she or maam is when she is with me. I am not the reason to why she get's maamed, but I make sure she looks the part when she is with me before I'll even go out with her because I don't want to be read as a man in a dress. If she has a beard I refuse to do anything with her till she shaves that darn thing off and puts on a little makeup because I want her to care about her appearance and be read as a woman. She has tried to use the womens restroom several times and in the process has been asked to leave the facility afterward. I was talking to an associate in whom I work with; an elderly lady in her 60's I think and we were talking about gay marriage. She is under the impression that Marriage is so sacred that by being gay and married ruins the sacredness of marriage because it is no longer sacred, but put on the chopping block because of the different kinds of marriages like having other partners while married, having sex with a man in general yada yada yada. Most view us using the restroom the same way. Womens is for "Women" and Mens is for "Men" and it is a sacred place to go, but being defiled by a transsexual woman walking in and pretending to be one of them. As my sister stated not to long ago "What boy doesn't like to talk about bodily function" I told her that I didn't and she yelled at me saying "Yeah, well you are nothing more than a man "pretending" to be a woman." She apologized later and we actually had a pretty good conversation about me being transsexual and how she will always love me as I have decided to transition. Its like our sacred places at home... those places we don't like anyone else to go but ourselves. Our office, Our Chair, Our whatever. How would we feel if someone dressed up as another me and sat down in "My" chair? I wouldn't simply just go out and buy a new chair... I would try to get the other person out of my chair so I could sit down or possibly sit down somewhere else.
I am not sure how on topic I am or even if I am on topic or if it has anything to do with the topic, I just woke up!! LoL!

Angela

[Marleena]

Thanks for posting this Kathryn. I just hope some non-TS members take the time to read your post too.

[Kathryn Martin]

Being born with a penis doesn't make you a male...transsexual women are born with penises obviously..

if you want to transition and keep your penis, it raises some common sense issues...

gender queer people are faced with a unique problem...they are forced to pick a gender to "live" in, and the other gender is expressed but not lived.....its just the way it is...we are biogically set to m/f, we socially, culturally, INSTINCTIVELY live as m/f...its just the way it is... no amount of education or legal rights is going to change that..

It also raises the question whether you are transsexual or gender variant. If you accept the premise that "a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]" and " · a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender" is the foundation of this condition then you have your starting point. If you also accept that hand in hand with these factors comes the need to achieve closest approximation of your target sex (remember sex characteristics) then a desire to express a gender other than the one you are born with is by definition gender variant. The desire and/or action to change your sex characteristics is the dividing line.

In this sense gender queer people are by definition gender variant and face the additional challenge of finding themselves in a world that cannot grasp that being neither gender is an acceptable place to be. In many ways this condition is in my view one of the most difficult ones to be.




HOWEVER, as the lovely and talented Kaitlyn points out, the subject is not an ideal representative for the transitioning community.

If somebody were to surmise from my overall appearance that I was a 'man", a quick check of my ID would show otherwise. There is no question that I would be allowed in a ladies locker room. After that it is incumbent on me to do as the Romans do.

I think you discount the fact that the transitioning community is on it's way by definition. Barriers to surgery exist but if you do not need to bring your body into alignment then by definition you are not trans - sexual (again sex characteristics) but seek to express yourself beyond your gender, hence gender variant or trans gender.

Politically, of course the trans-gender community has achieved rights that allow "women" with penises into women only spaces creating such situations as the Coleen Francis matter. Which, in my view, is just cah-reepy.


I respectfully submit that you've got it backwards. "Sex" is all about what's between your legs. "Gender" is all about what's between your ears. This gets conflated because "sex" fits in a driver's license and a passport much more easily.

But the argument being made in these quotes is still focused on sex. That's why the discussion of body parts is valid (whether the decision is or not). Body parts can be rearranged, but the innate gender identity of a person cannot.



Michelle, the reason for me saying what I said was that in all these cases the notion of "transgender" is used to focus on "it's all in your head, man" and that "expression" is the foundation of our condition. This is of course completely wrong. What is at issue is that our reproductive physiology belies who we are, that why it needs to be fixed.

The highlighted text was in response to Roseanne Barrs tweet. It is exceptionally bizarre to say: If the penis is attached to a man it's creepy and different than a penis attached to a woman which makes it a civil right. Really....?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i hear you april, and reading your posts i come over more to your side ... if you can't pull off looking more female without raising eyebrows, it raises issues that make life harder

but part of me still says if you really want to use a women's locker room that badly, then you gotta close the deal and change your body....otherwise its your problem, not everybody elses

The women's locker room is one place where exposing a woman's body IS the gender specific behaviour that is going on...

[Kathryn Martin]

While my reference to Coleen Francis was just an illustration of how transgender rights can go wrong, I am very alive to the issue of passing privilege and being pre-op. After all I am barely seven month post op. My understanding was that she attended the sauna nekkid and that it was there that the issue arose.

As you said in the other thread it is an issue of discretion. While I agree that the conversation about the differences between transsexualism and gender variance is somewhat esoteric for most cis-gendered people, it is nevertheless one that should be had. More importantly it is a matter about which the public must be educated because proper understanding of the nature of transsexualism and gender variance is fundamental to obtaining health care for each. In the US these issues may not be as significant as public funding for trans health care is not a great concern (although you can always hope) but here in Canada in most provinces this is an open issue. To address the health care concerns of both transsexuals and gender variant persons governments have to understand what they are supposed to provide. Likewise, balanced legal protections for transsexuals and gender variant persons must be implemented and in order to strike an appropriate balance you must again deal with the conditions specifically. The transgender umbrella movement has in fact stood in the way to achieve this.

I agree with you that what we are dealing with at present is horrendous. I could provide example over example from my profession, my clients, myself of how people have been impacted by a confused, often misogynist and malevolent public reaction to people that don't fit the normal bill. But that is not the point. The point is that if we don't educate others about us, gender variant and gender queer persons who will? Since I am not stealth for a variety of reasons, speaking to a better understanding of transsexuals and gender variant persons has become my pay forward for both us and gender variant persons in the most public way.

Too often we forget that insistence on our individual rights, such as the use of a women's changing room and sauna, because we are legally right to do so takes nothing away from the public backlash that you saw in the comment section to the piece about Coleen. In doing so we can harm all of us and others within the public. The most obvious example is calling us IT or FREAKS. Don't forget Coleen likes his sex with a penis, sitting in a sauna with 16 year old girls exposed. If you use the criterion of discretion this should never have happened.




Those of us with passing privilege would do well to remind ourselves that there was a time when we didn't have passing privilege. Those of us who have had surgery (whatever that maybe) would do well to remind ourselves that there was a time before our surgery. I do not believe Colleen was wagging her dangler around in the woman's locker room, instead she simply does not pass well and some bratty teeny boppers called her out on it. What is alarming (or at least should be!) are many of the hate filled comments from people who no nothing and do not care to know anything about transsexualism. That, folks, is what we are up against. The nuances of the meanings of esoteric words like transgender versus transsexual are lost on the general population who is more likely to choose the words FREAK or IT to describe a TS or a TG.

[Pexetta]

Surely though the Roseanne Barr/'won't someone please think of the children?' position would also demand that all gay women be excluded from women's changing rooms?

[Badtranny]

Surely though the Roseanne Barr/'won't someone please think of the children?' position would also demand that all gay women be excluded from women's changing rooms?

No no no, please don't equate someone with a lifetime of testosterone poisoning and a working set of wedding tackle with a gay woman. I don't care how you FEEL in your heart, if you are a genetic male, you have an awful lot of work to do before you can claim your place among lesbians.

[EnglishRose]

I may have had it wrong and she was fully exposed in said changing room. That kind of thing, yes it certainly can set back our rights. :/

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Surely though the Roseanne Barr/'won't someone please think of the children?' position would also demand that all gay women be excluded from women's changing rooms?

This assumes sex and gender are the same thing. And its the mistake so many people make and gets transsexualism lumped with all kinds of things

[Xrys]

I find this incident to be verry upsetting. This is going to add gallons of fule to the fire we are already fighting against, and why? Because sume knucklehead with a low dose patch doesn't have the common sense to put a towel over her junk while she is in the womens sauna at a college gym. From what i have gathered, she could have been leagaly charged with indecent exposure, and in a lockeroom with minors. Just more proof that every group of people with something in common has it's idiots that makes things harder for every one else in that group.

Sorry for the rant, should have given myself a little more time to cool off, but my inner bitch had to make the point. Personaly, I dont care what happens for public restrooms, or lockerrooms, or saunas. I never had much use for a sauna in Arizona, I do all my exercisises at home, and I Never use public restrooms. But, this is still going to make a bad name for the rest of us, and that sucks.

[ReineD]

In this sense gender queer people are by definition gender variant and face the additional challenge of finding themselves in a world that cannot grasp that being neither gender is an acceptable place to be. In many ways this condition is in my view one of the most difficult ones to be.

Thank you. :)

The issue then, is how to convince the Colleens that they are gender variant and not transwomen, as long as they have the desire to keep and use their penises. How do you teach anyone the very difficult concept of non-conforming gender in a world where everyone is forced to choose one or the other? The Colleens know they do not identify as male. Does this then default to identifying as female, since they have a strong desire to live full time? Why is it that Colleen's definition of being female is different than a transwoman who never has or who has ceased to view her penis as a commodity? I don't have an answer for this.


While I agree that the conversation about the differences between transsexualism and gender variance is somewhat esoteric for most cis-gendered people, it is nevertheless one that should be had. More importantly it is a matter about which the public must be educated because proper understanding of the nature of transsexualism and gender variance is fundamental to obtaining health care for each.

A conversation about the differences between transsexualism and gender variance with the public will not yield results as long as gender variants and transsexuals both say they are transsexual. There is no issue with gender variants who understand and accept their need to be feminine well enough to know they are not transsexual even though they may wish to live as women.

Are there any clinical studies that differentiate between transwomen and gender variants?

-----------------------

We're referring to Colleen quite a bit, and so I thought I'd quote her words from her OkCupid profile:


I guess for description sake I have to say I am a transwoman. I don't use that "label" though; truly I identify as "just a girl." I'm legally recognized as female, and have been for a coupls of years. (I still haven't gotten the plumbing remodeled, but it will happen somewhere down the road.)


Giving oral sex, kisses, nibbling, and lots of caressing and touch make me a happy girl. I've never, even when I was living as a male, been a "genitally focused" person sexually. I feel sex in every pore of my body and have a thousand and one erogenous zones!

Not quite sure what "not genitally focused" means though, in the context of her past male life. Maybe she doesn't use her penis after all?

[Kathryn Martin]

By way of an update here is an article (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/11/washington-college-oks-exposure-of-young-girls-to-transgender-male-in-locker-room/) on Coleen Francis dated yesterday.

[Inna]

Clear case of self righteousness! TG non-op decides to expose genitals to a young girls crowd because she can, Common people, what is wrong with this picture. If I have found my self in women's locker rooms, even after srs, would I really go for the unveiling ceremony there, NO, I am sure that most women do not either. As I regretfully remember from my former life as a bloke, I was a bodyBuilder and gym was my second home, but even there I would put the towel around my waist, simply out of decency and would briefly expose my privates only for the clothes change. IT IS A DECENCY ISSUE, not human rights or transgender rights.
This TG stinks, however, I wasn't there and do not know of exact circumstances, perhaps some of it is simply a hype, who knows?

[Aprilrain]

If this is true it shows a clear lack or respect and common decency on Colleens part

[EnglishRose]

I have it on good authority that she is a naturist, so the stories may be dead on here.

[arbon]

A thread came up on Coleen Francis on another forum I am on that is not a tg related site but for political discussion - I was surprised by it. :-/ people don't have nice things to say, depressing, and the comments in the article the op linked to :(

[juno]

Personally, I think the world would be better if we were all comfortable sharing unisex everything. The world is not that way, so everyone needs to respect everyone else with common sense. A person forcing their values onto other people does not promote progress. It just makes the other people dislike or even hate them.

[Kathryn Martin]

Here is the last in the Coleen saga, the Police Report (http://www.adfmedia.org/files/EvergreenPoliceReport.pdf)

[ReneeT]

Here is the last in the Coleen saga, the Police Report (http://www.adfmedia.org/files/EvergreenPoliceReport.pdf)

This is absolute crap. 2 days in a row, in a locker room, dangling male genitalia about for all to see. This individual is trying to make a statement. In the sauna two days in a row?????? Really????? This person is a sexual predator until proven otherwise. This person casts a terrible shadow over us all and reinforces the public perception that guys pretend to be ts so they can molest women. If you are going to display your 45 year old naked body in a womens locker room, there better not be a dick there. If this person got its ass kicked for this I would really have to try hard to fire up my moral outrage. This person is stupid. Period.

I apologize for the rant, but really.......

[ReneeT]

By way of an update here is an article (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/11/washington-college-oks-exposure-of-young-girls-to-transgender-male-in-locker-room/) on Coleen Francis dated yesterday.

Here is a comment following the blog post: "What a selfish, self-centered, narcissistic *******. He doesn’t give a rip about what he’s doing to little people. It’s all about him" I couldn't agree more.

[melissaK]

I don't know about the sexual predator label for Colleen, i should read the PR i guess. I thought "sex predator" is a category reserved for rapists or adults with interests in children. But it points up a problem for incompletely transitioned TS or plain TG, who venture into age unrestricted places because we protect children far more stridently than adults.

Cross gendered adults in age unrestricted locker rooms, dressing rooms and rest rooms raises eyebrows and others are quick to speculate about pedophilia motives. I agree it ignores the risk same sex predators present, (think Sandusky) but it is still how cross gendered adults in the other genders undressing areas are viewed. Cross gendered adults around children in a place where clothes are removed or sometimes removed, is not culturally accepted in this country (Europe may differ, I don't live there or know). There's no bright line and TG and TS need to be careful in pushing an unpopular position.

I disprove of Colleens antics. I am sorry we incompletely transitioned TS or TG don't get full rights to cross gender boundaries in every case - even with some Constitutional protections in some states. But we are up against deeply ingrained cultural rules resulting from experience, and from a need to protect the most vulnerable - children. When it comes to our rights vs children's, children win.

[Babeba]

From the sounds of one article I found, there is a second, smaller change room which the swim teams have been using to change, etc. in.

Now, speaking as someone with severe allergies, and a long history of issues with locker rooms and public restrooms - as a person with a difference, it is OUR responsibility to make sure that we take care of both ourselves and others. I wouldn't dream of telling other women they couldn't use their shampoo, deodorant or body wash in the locker room; I make sure there is a place where I am separated from that and safe. My right to breathe is more important than their 'right' to waft off crazy synthetically derived odours, but let's be realistic: it is far easier to move one person than thirty. The same goes for people facing issues which are Not immediately life threatening. I can guarantee that saunas still work when there are clothes on, and that there are other saunas in town not attached to a women's change rooms.

If Colleen did what 95% of us do in changing rooms and changed then left, that wouldn't have caused any issues at all. But two days of hanging out (literally) at the same time that minors and young kids just HAPPEN to be there? Uhm, hello red flags!

[Saffron]

Sorry I don't get it, why people are so afraid of the human body? To see a naked body it's only a natural thing, what's wrong in it?

Kids have to be protected... From puritanism.

And then the sexism of the situation. I'm pretty sure that if boys where in a locker with an adult woman naked nobody would say a thing.

Common, this days we are perfectly aware of homosexuals, cisgenders, transsexuals, etc.

Our current binary system is so broken , that's the real problem, not a poor woman trying to not be pushed out from society.

You know, rosa parks could also had changed her seat... That's not the solution.

[Alicew]

Sorry I don't get it, why people are so afraid of the human body? To see a naked body it's only a natural thing, what's wrong in it?

Kids have to be protected... From puritanism.

And then the sexism of the situation. I'm pretty sure that if boys where in a locker with an adult woman naked nobody would say a thing.

Common, this days we are perfectly aware of homosexuals, cisgenders, transsexuals, etc.

Our current binary system is so broken , that's the real problem, not a poor woman trying to not be pushed out from society.

You know, rosa parks could also had changed her seat... That's not the solution.

Think your over thinking it saffron its not about her right to enter public places its her distinct lack off any form of common sense or common decency.
No naked women should appear infront of young boys for the exact same reason a naked man shouldnt appear infront of young girls,simple common decency .
For a self proclaimed agressively same sex seeking TS women to flaunt her self to other women and young girls has to be seen for what it is ,actively cruising for sex its not about her right to appear naked she can do that where ever she wants but would have to face the law on indecency,not do it on a public stage and hide behind the anti-discrimination law while trawling for kicks.
Shes setting back the entire movement and shining a very bad light on trans people as a whole by being stupid.

[Kathryn Martin]

Sorry I don't get it, why people are so afraid of the human body? To see a naked body it's only a natural thing, what's wrong in it?

While there is certainly some religious puritanism going on with the public reaction, seeing a naked body is not the issue. There are places in this world where you can pursue your freedom. The issue is whether imposing your nakedness on those who prefer not to be exposed to such sights is appropriate. Indecency laws have been put into place precisely to prevent this. The locker room was a public female only space. It brings into stark relief what I referred to above. Unless you are post-op you must use extreme discretion in managing situations such as this. I predict the result of this incident is that the courts will define what female only means. There are competing interests at stake and the interest of protecting a adolescent public will rank before women with penises.


Kids have to be protected... From puritanism. If you had any notion about developmental stages of growing up you would realize that during the age of 9 to about 18 all children develop a very high level of self consciousness about their bodies and feel full of shame about being seen or exposed to naked bodies. This is not puritanism. One of the sixteen year old girls complained that there was a naked man in the sauna. Don't think this was about the naked man only, it was being in a situation where this girl was exposed to someone she did not feel safe around - hence a strange man as she reported.

Besides you are imposing an adult standard where it is not appropriate


And then the sexism of the situation. I'm pretty sure that if boys where in a locker with an adult woman naked nobody would say a thing.

If a woman showed up in a boys locker room naked it would be the same and should be dealt with accordingly.


Common, this days we are perfectly aware of homosexuals, cisgenders, transsexuals, etc.

As if this had anything to do with anything.


Our current binary system is so broken , that's the real problem, not a poor woman trying to not be pushed out from society.

This is no poor woman. The entire incident shows that this man in fact did what he God damn well pleased without a shred of consideration for either the situation or those that he would affect. He could have for modesty worn a bikini bottom or covered up with a towel. The truth was that he repeatedly went to the sauna and exposed himself by reclining and opening his legs. This is documented.

The binary system is not broken in any way. What is broken is the expectation that the extreme ends of the binary are the paradigm for what women and men should be like.



You know, rosa parks could also had changed her seat... That's not the solution.

This analogy is of course completely off the mark and in complete disregard of the nature of race and transsexuality, it is in effect an empty argument. In fact this remark is just as off the cuff as either of the statements referred to above designed to deny the crucial differentiation between gender variance and transsexualism. It is easy to make such remarks. It is much harder to really develop an understanding of reality and speak about that comprehensively. It might involve some real work.

[Babeba]

Rosa Parks wasn't setting out to be Rosa Parks when she declined to give up her seat. Rosa parks was tired at the end of a long day and was sitting in the first damn seat she had available. I would say 98% of the people comparing themselves with Ms. Parks are far more self righteous than she was.

Maybe someday in North America, it will just be expected that all genders share the same changing space. Someday that will be totally fine and the norm. As things stand today, there are a LOT of people (especially parents) for whom a genetically male person with functioning male genitalia having reason to spend a great deal of time loitering naked around their teenage daughters is a worst case scenario... Especially one who self defines as kinky, into BDSM (which is often about unequal power relationships) and raves about having sex with much younger women.

I'm not saying that transwomen are not women. Nor that they should be discriminated against when they are using facilities. But, there is a HUGE difference between actions required to use a facility and using a specifically 'female only' public space with a penis and testicles out on display.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Babeba has it right..

protecting rights is one thing...but disregarding others is not the way to do it...and whether 100% agree or not, the VAST majority of people understand lines of common decency and crossiing those lines for personal gain is something i do not support..

It is not a civil rights issue whether a person can sit naked in a sauna or not...

The discussion of whether Coleen is transsexual or not is a sideshow to the real problem...which is that she is a poor example for what most of us care about...she doesnt represent caring and thoughtful people.. and her choices reflect incredibly poorly on us

[Badtranny]

I would say 98% of the people comparing themselves with Ms. Parks are far more self righteous than she was.

Oh snap! What a beautiful quote. I'm not saying that I'm gonna steal it, but I'm not gonna say I ain't. ;-)


I'm not saying that transwomen are not women. Nor that they should be discriminated against when they are using facilities. But, there is a HUGE difference between actions required to use a facility and using a specifically 'female only' public space with a penis and testicles out on display.

Damn girl, you sound exactly like me! I love it!

Speaking as an actual real life trans woman with a legal female identity, and a decent mostly passable presentation, WITH a penis (no testicles though) I agree with this position 100%. I may be ambivalent about my genitals, and I have even argued on the side of the girls who want to keep it (I could go either way) but I am absolutely NOT proud of my pickle in any way. I have no desire to show it off and sometimes I'm even embarrassed to admit I still have it. This is how I feel, so my opinion is colored by those feelings, but anybody who eschews discretion to the point of somebody being offended is either extremely unlucky or just a tiny bit proud of their equipment.

Either way, the law doesn't allow us to be assholes, the law allows us to be allowed and some of us want to use that allowance to EXPAND our access and freedom. Unfortunately others of us, want to stop progress dead in it's tracks in order to prove a point about what THEY think the law should allow. I'm all for individuality and political correctness makes me cringe, but when can we as a community stand up and say "this is over the line and this does not represent what we're fighting for"?

The straights and squares are already afraid of the kinks and queers so why in the world would we want to start lobbing softballs at them?