Passing for CAT's

[Foxglove]

Hi, Guys and Girls! I've found this comment by Reine



To go further, I'm a straight GG. My SO and I don't hold hands in public when we're out dressed and there are two reasons for this. First, is that even today, same sex couples who show mutual public affection garner a lot of attention. If we held hands, people would look at us more closely and this would increase my So's chances of being read. But, just as important, is my desire to not be seen as someone who I am not. I am not a lesbian, in the traditional sense, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to be seen for who I am.

on this thread

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?183850-Why-the-taboo-against-MtF-crossdressing

extremely interesting and timely. For this reason: my son has tentatively offered to take me out on a date. In January there's going to be a concert in the National Concert Hall in Dublin that we'd both like to go to. They're going to perform Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, which we both love. Wouldn't it be so much fun to go en femme? I'm so excited.

I've told my son there's no pressure on him. If he's nervous about this and wants to change his mind, I'll understand. (But I don't think he will. And as for me, I'm not nervous in the least. This is something I wanna and gotta do!)

But Reine's comment reminded me of something I'd already thought about. We always talk about our need to pass and the things we can do to make it easier. But a CAT (a Cisperson Accompanying a Transperson) also needs to pass. If he/she isn't, it could give the whole game away.

So perhaps some of you can come up with some advice (for the benefit of my son and other CAT's) about how to pass.

Reine's comment, I think, establishes one good rule:

Decide on the roles you want to play. E.g., Reine doesn't want to hold hands with her SO when she's dressed because then she (Reine) would be perceived as lesbian, and she doesn't want to be perceived that way. Perfectly understandable.

I think it would make a lot of sense for my son to pretend to be . . . my son. That wouldn't be too great a leap for him. Instead of father and son, we'll be mother and son. If anybody were to look us over, I think that's the natural assumption they'd make--especially given that he's a full 9 inches taller than me.

Then you need to Play your roles well. If he's escorting his mother, he needs to treat her like his mother--e.g., by always holding the door for her. This is something my son doesn't usually do for me when I'm in drab (no flippin' respect for age!). If he gets to the door first, he just goes right on in. But if he were to do that at the concert, it would definitely look very odd.

Be confident. Just as a transperson needs to be confident and natural to pass, a CAT must be the same so as not to draw attention to the two of them.

So these are some things I can think of. Can anybody think of anything else?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[kimdl93]

I keep thinking of that line from the movie Apollo 13...you know, when they jury-rigged a CO2 filter...and Tom hanks character says, "just breathe, gentlemen".

[bridget thronton]

I think mother son at concert should work well (as long as some courtesies are extended - door, coat, refreshments, stair support)

[Sandra]

Flipping heck, he's your son he shouldn't have to play at any role. Your just two people going out for the night.

[Foxglove]

I keep thinking of that line from the movie Apollo 13...you know, when they jury-rigged a CO2 filter...and Tom hanks character says, "just breathe, gentlemen".

Yeah, Kim, ultimately this may be all it comes down to.


Flipping heck, he's your son he shouldn't have to play at any role. Your just two people going out for the night.

I'm not sure it's this simple, Sandra. I speak from personal experience. The first time I went out with a T-girl (I was in drab myself), I was initially uneasy--despite the fact that I'm trans myself. I was afraid everybody would be looking at her and hence they'd be looking at me. I quickly found that that wasn't the case. Nobody was paying any attention to her, so I relaxed.

And I'm trans. Most cispeople haven't a clue what the trans experience is, and so they probably won't know how to approach it. As my son put it to me, he has no problem with me being trans. His problem is that for 27 years he's had a certain image of me, and now all of a sudden he has to change it. That's not easy. Up to now, every time we've been out together I've been in drab. He knows how to go about things like that. No problem. But when he's with a "woman", that's a big change. Normally a guy behaves quite differently around a woman than when he's with another guy (at least we hope that he would). So if he's feeling some uncertainty, I think that's quite understandable. Maybe he won't. Maybe he'll be quite comfortable around me. We'll see.

Annabelle

[Jorja]

Flipping heck, he's your son he shouldn't have to play at any role. Your just two people going out for the night.

Oh come on Sandra, where is your sense of adventure? He could be the incredibly handsome son of a wealthy client and Annabelle could be the cougar wife of a high powered attorney. They both just so happen to love the Symphony so they go while daddy and the attorney do business. :)

[Foxglove]

He could be the incredibly handsome son of a wealthy client and Annabelle could be the cougar wife of a high powered attorney. They both just so happen to love the Symphony so they go while daddy and the attorney do business. :)

I like this scenario, Jorja! I don't think my son would, though. He tends to be the down-to-earth type in most areas of life. His sense of adventure is World of Warcraft.

[Momarie]

Flipping heck, he's your son he shouldn't have to play at any role. Your just two people going out for the night.

Agreed.

Also, not too fond of CAT or CIS.
It's seems like a way to marginalize another.

[Sandra]

Oh come on Sandra, where is your sense of adventure? He could be the incredibly handsome son of a wealthy client and Annabelle could be the cougar wife of a high powered attorney. They both just so happen to love the Symphony so they go while daddy and the attorney do business. :)

Well there is that :D

I guess it's different for a son.....our daughter wasn't any different when she first went out with Nigella, she was just herself and she even said "Dad" and continues to do so.

Whatever you both feel comfy with I hope you have a nice time.

[Sandra1746]

Isn't WOW a role-playing game (I don't play it so I don't know)?
In any case going out dressed in the "wrong (as socially defined) gender" involves a bit of role playing; but out in the real world.

In any case; you should both be OK and have fun if you just relax and 'go with the flow'. Most people around you will either not notice or not care. Dress in an appropriate manner for the occasion and act just like all the other folks there.

Have fun and enjoy,
Sandra1746

[Foxglove]

I guess it's different for a son.....our daughter wasn't any different when she first went out with Nigella, she was just herself and she even said "Dad" and continues to do so.

Whatever you both feel comfy with I hope you have a nice time.

Maybe it is different for a son, or maybe it's just an individual difference. I don't know. And I'm not sure that my son is going to be uncomfortable. He may be perfectly OK with it. But I want to be prepared with a bit of advice in case he is uncomfortable.

Also, I know that I wouldn't be comfortable with him calling me "Dad". Actually, he generally calls me by my given name. Irish kids, even very young ones, quite often call their parents by their given names. You're raising a good point here. He might not be comfortable calling me "Annabelle" or "Mom" or "Mother". That may be something we need to discuss.

I hope all this doesn't become too difficult. I don't want to put him off.


Isn't WOW a role-playing game (I don't play it so I don't know)?
In any case going out dressed in the "wrong (as socially defined) gender" involves a bit of role playing; but out in the real world.

In any case; you should both be OK and have fun if you just relax and 'go with the flow'. Most people around you will either not notice or not care. Dress in an appropriate manner for the occasion and act just like all the other folks there.


Yes, as I understand it, WOW is role-playing. And I certainly feel that I'm playing a totally different role these days.

I haven't been out a whole lot as yet, but I've already seen that relaxing and acting naturally is the best way to go about things.

Maybe he'll be totally OK. Maybe I'm seeing difficulties where there aren't any.

Annabelle

[TxKimberly]

Flipping heck, he's your son he shouldn't have to play at any role. Your just two people going out for the night.

Yepper, Sandra said it perfectly! Oh, and about the expectation that your son should hold the door for yo? I'd let that one go. Frankly, it's a little creepy. If your son wants to open the door for you, then wonderful, but if you insist on it, I think it would be a bit weird.

[docrobbysherry]

Sometimes u get stuck in a role u don't want, Annabelle. No matter who I'm with or what role I wish to portray when I'm out, I'm pretty much stuck with either; ugly old guy in a dress, or scary, fake woman!

Count your lucky stars those of u that have options!

[Lady Catherine]

I just came out to my 25 year old son on Monday (10/29/12) and on Wednesday we went to where he bartends and sat at his bar for a couple hours. I asked him a question and he answered, "Yes, Ma'am." and he'd only known for less then 48 hours at that point. You two should be fine. Just relax and go with the flow.

By the way: my sons remark when I told him? "That's f@#&ing awesome!"

[Foxglove]

Yepper, Sandra said it perfectly! Oh, and about the expectation that your son should hold the door for yo? I'd let that one go. Frankly, it's a little creepy. If your son wants to open the door for you, then wonderful, but if you insist on it, I think it would be a bit weird.

Well, three of you are agree on this point, so maybe there's something to it. But I still have my doubts. We T-girls are always talking about things we need to do to pass--although I myself am not totally concerned about passing, but rather not drawing any more attention to myself than I have to. When I'm on my own, I try to do things to remain as unnoticeable as possible. E.g., this morning when I was out for a walk and met a few people, I pitched my voice a bit higher than normal when I said, "Good morning" to them.

I understand perfectly what you're saying about holding the door. That feels a bit odd to me, too. But think about it: if you saw a small, middle-aged woman holding a door for a big, strong, young lad, wouldn't that look odd? I think that could draw attention to us, and that's what I'd like to avoid. Somebody else here mentioned him helping me with my coat. I personally wouldn't think that necessary. I'm basically trying to think about things that might really look out of place.

I'm not just thinking about myself here. I'm thinking about him. This will be a very new experience for him. It is possible he might be uncomfortable in ways. If so, that wouldn't surprise me in the least. I would like to help put him at ease.


Sometimes u get stuck in a role u don't want, Annabelle. No matter who I'm with or what role I wish to portray when I'm out, I'm pretty much stuck with either; ugly old guy in a dress, or scary, fake woman!

Count your lucky stars those of u that have options!

I'm not complaining, Sherry. I'm delighted to have these options--just as I'm delighted and amazed at the level of acceptance that my son is showing me these days. He's really a great guy, and I have to say, I'm quite overwhelmed.


I just came out to my 25 year old son on Monday (10/29/12) and on Wednesday we went to where he bartends and sat at his bar for a couple hours. I asked him a question and he answered, "Yes, Ma'am." and he'd only known for less then 48 hours at that point. You two should be fine. Just relax and go with the flow.

By the way: my sons remark when I told him? "That's f@#&ing awesome!"

It's really nice to get such acceptance, isn't it, Catherine. When you think of all the people who don't get it from family members, I know how lucky I am.

Annabelle

[Jorja]

Hey, I do want you all to know I was just kidding. If your son doesn't mind going out in public with you the go dressed. Otherwise, just be two people who share a mutual appreciation for the Symphony. Have fun and enjoy the time with your son above all else.

[TxKimberly]

. . . . I understand perfectly what you're saying about holding the door. That feels a bit odd to me, too. But think about it: if you saw a small, middle-aged woman holding a door for a big, strong, young lad, wouldn't that look odd?
. . . .

Annabelle, I still open doors for my wife and for other women, but the reality is that this is not very common these days. If you want to draw attention to yourself, then go ahead and have a young man leaping ahead of you to open doors.
No "act" is going to help you pass. His very presence should probably help, and perhaps if he were to handle most of the speaking. Your being comfortable and confident is what is going to make the most difference to whether you pass or not.

[Foxglove]

Annabelle, I still open doors for my wife and for other women, but the reality is that this is not very common these days. If you want to draw attention to yourself, then go ahead and have a young man leaping ahead of you to open doors.
No "act" is going to help you pass. His very presence should probably help, and perhaps if he were to handle most of the speaking. Your being comfortable and confident is what is going to make the most difference to whether you pass or not.

Hi, Kimberly! One thing this thread has done has made me see that perhaps I'm making too much of this. So it's been a useful thread in this regard.

I haven't been out just a whole lot as yet, but I've learned that the best thing to do is just relax and go about my business. My son hasn't had any experience being out with me, so he probably isn't aware of that. But it occurs to me that if I try to give too much advice or make too many recommendations, it might be counterproductive: it might make him nervous when he wasn't before. So maybe I should tell him what I've already learned--just relax and go about your business--and leave it at that.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[TxKimberly]

. . . But it occurs to me that if I try to give too much advice or make too many recommendations, it might be counterproductive: it might make him nervous when he wasn't before. So maybe I should tell him what I've already learned--just relax and go about your business--and leave it at that. . .

You just hit the nail on the head! Relax and just be who and what you are - parent and child. Dont worry about who might be thinking what - it doesn't matter.
Unless you are one of the very few and incredibly fortunate, some people who interact with you probably will realize what you are. So what? They wont care and neither should you.

Dont worry if he slips up and calls you "Dad" because you are his Dad and have been for his whole life. If you make a big fuss about it, you are gonna make HIM uncomfortable, perhaps to the point where he would no longer consider going anywhere with you. You just need to relax and be grateful that he is willing to step out with you, because many sons wouldn't even consider it.

All you need to worry about is enjoying the show (I'm envious for that by the way!)

Have a great time and let us know how it goes!

[Babeba]

Crystal and I have gone out a couple of times, and to be honest, I wasn't thinking about acting. We are who we are, and there's nothing changed in that regard because she's in a skirt. 'Acting' will probably be stilted and not look natural, and actually draw more attention to yourselves?

There's also one thing I'd like to point out: even if you don't want to hear it in public when you're dressed you are still his Dad, so when you ask him to not say it dressed please make sure you stress that part of it!!

[Foxglove]

You just hit the nail on the head! Relax and just be who and what you are - parent and child. Dont worry about who might be thinking what - it doesn't matter.
Unless you are one of the very few and incredibly fortunate, some people who interact with you probably will realize what you are. So what? They wont care and neither should you.

Dont worry if he slips up and calls you "Dad" because you are his Dad and have been for his whole life. If you make a big fuss about it, you are gonna make HIM uncomfortable, perhaps to the point where he would no longer consider going anywhere with you. You just need to relax and be grateful that he is willing to step out with you, because many sons wouldn't even consider it.

All you need to worry about is enjoying the show (I'm envious for that by the way!)

Have a great time and let us know how it goes!


Crystal and I have gone out a couple of times, and to be honest, I wasn't thinking about acting. We are who we are, and there's nothing changed in that regard because she's in a skirt. 'Acting' will probably be stilted and not look natural, and actually draw more attention to yourselves?

There's also one thing I'd like to point out: even if you don't want to hear it in public when you're dressed you are still his Dad, so when you ask him to not say it dressed please make sure you stress that part of it!!

Thanks, People. I think these two posts are very good.

I started this thread with one thing in mind, and now I've come round to other things. E.g., there are certain things I find it painful to be reminded of. I know it would bother me if he called me "Dad" when I'm dressed. I used to be ashamed of being trans. Now I feel ashamed to be in drab.

Well, that's something for me to deal with. No point in trying to make my son or anybody else deal with it.

I'm coming out of the closet now. I thought that would take care of a lot of problems, and I have no doubt that it will. But I'm beginning to see that it will also probably create new concerns for me. I have to identify them and learn how to approach them.

Annabelle

[TxKimberly]

So when is the big show? We wanna hear about it! ;)

[sandra-leigh]

Every time I read the tittle of this thread, I think, "CAT == Computer Aided Transsexual ?!"

[Jayla]

Every time I read the tittle of this thread, I think, "CAT == Computer Aided Transsexual ?!"

Hah! I guess it reflects what's on your mind.

[Foxglove]

So when is the big show? We wanna hear about it! ;)

The concert's not till January. You have to book well in advance for these things. I'll let you know when the time comes.

The real question for right now is Christmas. My son and I always have the day together. It's going to have to be at his place this year since he'll be back at work the next day. The problem is that he's never seen me dressed. But I'm switched over to full-time now. So we'll see if he's going to want to spend Christmas Day with a "girl". I'm kind of assuming at this point that he won't mind--given that he's invited me to a concert. But that may be something we'll have to discuss. We'll see. It's still a few weeks away.

[suzy1]

I think the first time your son sees you dressed is going to be a big moment in your life as Annabelle.
From what you have told us I think it will be fine but please let us know how it goes when you do show him. Perhaps all the ‘being treated as the woman you are’ by your son will then come naturally to him.
He loves you and that alone should make it O.K.

All the best,

SUZY

[Foxglove]

Aye, Suzy, it's inevitable that he'll see me sooner or later, and that's going to be an awkward moment for both of us. But I think it's something that's simply going to have to happen--unless he decides he never wants to see me again, and he's given no indication that that's going to be the case.

This is why I went to Dublin last week, to discuss with him the decision that I made to go over to full-time. I was afraid how this would affect our relationship, because we've always been very close. I told him that I didn't want this to create a rift between us.

But he seemed to be perfectly at ease with my decision. So I'm hoping that after a bit of initial awkwardness, we'll both be able to accept the situation. I'm looking at the rest of my life now. Will he be able to accept that life for me as I envision it?

A couple of nights ago we were texting each other and I told him that I'd been out on the town, and he didn't seem to have any problem with that. According to him, his chief worry is that I might run into some harassment. In other words, he's OK with what I'm doing. He's only worried about whether others are OK with it.

Those are the vibes I'm getting from him right now. But I've got to be on the alert in case they change. If he starts having problems with the situation, then I'll have to try and think about what I can do about it.

But my initial experiences with my changeover have been nothing but encouraging. It's very early days yet, but there's been nothing to make me think I've made a bad decision here. The last couple of weeks have been the best of my life.

I just got word last night that some people are planning on meeting up in a nearby town on Sunday evening to go to the cinema. For right now, I plan to be there. This is the sort of thing that's been coming my way since I decided to switch over. I've had some really good experiences, and I want more and more and more of them.

But I don't want to cause problems for my son. I need to keep an eye on that.

Annabelle

[ReineD]

I'm not quite sure what my not wanting to play the role of a lesbian has to do with your son having to play a role when he's with you, but my observation is that under no circumstances should a son play the role of being on a date with his parent. lol

If he normally addresses you as "dad", then maybe he could just call you Annabelle for the evening? Why would he have to play a role?

Oh, and BTW, if I were a lesbian, I'd be out and proud! But likely, my SO would still not want to hold hands for the first reason I mentioned in my quote: same-sex couples who show public affection do get stared at by cis-people still. And this would draw undue attention on my SO.

[Foxglove]

Hi, Reine!

I think this word "role" was ill-chosen, and I regret using it now. All I really meant was how one chooses to behave when accompanying someone else. If you don't want to hold hands because of how things might appear to others, I understand that. I was merely concerned about how my son might want to behave around me when we're in public. If he's overtly treating me like a "man", that might be a bit odd.

In any case, my son usually calls me by my given name. I wouldn't be comfortable with that when dressed in public, and I'm not sure that he'd be comfortable calling me "Annabelle". We'll talk about that when the time comes. It has occurred to me that one option might be "A.B." (for "Annabelle"). I'd be OK with that. We'll sort it out.

[ReineD]

Annabelle, it's not a question of caring how things may appear to others, it's a question of being true to who I am. I'm not a lesbian. I don't engage in romantic public displays of affection with other women, whether it is with my SO or my best female friend.

I don't play any roles when I'm out with my SO.



Yepper, Sandra said it perfectly! Oh, and about the expectation that your son should hold the door for yo? I'd let that one go. Frankly, it's a little creepy. If your son wants to open the door for you, then wonderful, but if you insist on it, I think it would be a bit weird.

LOL ... my own sons don't hold the door for me. I tried to teach them, I really did! I remember a few years ago my then 19 year old son and I were walking into a store together and when he motioned to go into the door first, I actually asked him if he ever held doors open for girls. His response: "But you're not a girl, you're my mom!" ... and then he went in ahead of me. :p

[Foxglove]

Annabelle, it's not a question of caring how things may appear to others, it's a question of being true to who I am. I'm not a lesbian. I don't engage in romantic public displays of affection with other women, whether it is with my SO or my best female friend.

I don't play any roles when I'm out with my SO.



I understand this, Reine. In my OP I quoted from one of your posts where you give your reasons, and I'm not questioning them.

It's simply that your post led me to consider my relationship with my son, and that's really what this thread is about. This thread has given me things to think about and I am seeing things in a new light as a result of it.

[ReineD]

Just be yourself and enjoy a wonderful evening with your son! He'll find his way. He'll behave in a way that will feel comfortable for him.

... and I'm jealous. I love the 9th! ... and the 3rd, and the 5th. :)

[Foxglove]

And I think the 8th is frequently overlooked. My son swears by the 6th.

But thanks, if he doesn't change his mind about this, I think we can both have a great time.