Why Women Don't Crossdress (IMHO)

[Sarasometimes]

In my corner of the world, when women dresses in a menswear suit and full makeup or throws on her boyfriend's shirt over jeeans and skips the makeup she is readily accepted and even complemented on her choices. Later that night she can put on an LBD and heels and get a similar response. When she gets home she can change into women's panties that are dead ringers for a guys tighty whities and all is good with the world.
As a hetero crossdresser I have no interest in changing gender or living 24/7 all I want is the ability to express my feminine side in dress in NE USA without being looked down upon as wmoen in my region can currently do.
Since this isn't an option I choose to present as a woman and go where the greatest tolerance is found (ie a salon or store where simply being a customer gets me acceptance to my face).
So I have concluded, just recently that if i was met with the same acceptance as GG's get when they cross gender lines, I would simply do the same. I would just, one day wear a skirt and v neck with mascara and lipgloss and that night put on my men's jeans and a tee shirt and chapstick. Oh to dream!

[Melissa73]

oh i agree! i wish like you, i could just throw on a skirt and run to the store or something. Or just shop! I dont wanna change who i am. I am a guy... a guy who loves skirts and dresses and panties and bras. u ever need a friend, im here......

hugs michelle

[linda allen]

Just be glad you don't live in the jungles of Africa or South America where people run around almost naked. How would you crossdress in a culture where women are normally seen topless?

[Kate Simmons]

The answer is simple Hon. Women are not considered CDers when they wear guy stuff because they are women. They do CD when getting dolled up to the "nines", however as that is not their normal everyday thing. Even Cassandra Peterson said once that when she is Elvira, she considers herself to be "in drag". Kind of a "sticky wicket" really. :heehee::battingeyelashes::)

[Karren H]

...........want is the ability to express my feminine side in dress in NE USA without being looked down upon as women in my region can currently do.


In the northeast...... Women are being looked down upon or they are looking down on you?

[Sarasometimes]

In the northeast...... Women are being looked down upon or they are looking down on you?

In the NE a guy simply wearing a skirt but otherwise looking like a guy is looked down upon. No women aren't looked down upon in the NE.

[Alice Torn]

Kate, Brilliant. I never considered that, it is like or is crosssdressing, when women dress to the nines! It is so rare, that i suppose that would be true of most of them!

[Alicew]

Ill throw my tuppence into the ring too then .women dont CD because they dont need to they wear whatever they want to wear with no other pre concieved reason than comfort simple as.
Men on the other hand crossdress for an infinite number of reasons usually unknown to themselves why they do it themselves,happiness ,piece of mind ,the thrill of it but i doubt its just for comfort other wise we too would just wear our own clothes too.

As to actually wearing the clothes a few more generations down the line clothes will most likely be unisex or so radically different that the current glamour clothes dissapear alltogether,i see it even now teenage boys growing up look just like the teenage girls the gender divide is slowly crumbling ,prehaps natural evolution or just the number of hormones we flood the planets water sources with taking their toll.

As to the ridicule of wearing the other clothes in public untill its the societal norm or we all fall out the closset you just have to deal with it or live in the closet im afraid, people just dont understand the why of our need to do it and probably never will,after coming out to my mom she still says the most awfull things to me about my feelings just by simply not understanding it even after explaining it many many times over,its just not something muggles have to EVER consider or think about in their normal lives.

[kellycan27]

Just be glad you don't live in the jungles of Africa or South America where people run around almost naked. How would you crossdress in a culture where women are normally seen topless?

When in Rome? .....

[Kate Simmons]

Just bear in mind also that other than some sense of "societal propriety" for the genders, the clothing we wear is really moot and should be according to personal choice rather than custom.:)

[Alicew]

Just bear in mind also that other than some sense of "societal propriety" for the genders, the clothing we wear is really moot and should be according to personal choice rather than custom.:)

Except women who as a default see crossdressing as a sexual fetish activity.

[5150 Girl]

We live in a male dominated society. (for now anyway and it's getting better) When a woman does somthing manly, we see her as just trying to compete. however on the other side of the coin, there is this gender privlage thing. Men are expected to be men, brave and strong! No sissy stuff!!!!
One day however, as more of us becoe brave enough to come out, and break the steriotypical gender roles, we will become more acepted. Not to sound like a broken record, but THE MORE COMMON PLACE WE MAKE OURSEVLVES, THE MORE COMMON PLACE WE'LL BECOME!!!
I've used this analogy before,,, I live in a backwater community. Back in the late 70's there were very few people of color in town, and the one's that were here mostly kept to themselvs. I remember the first time I say a balck man. I was almost in tears with fear. (I was little more than a toddler) But, as time went on, and more blacks came to our comunity, and started to ventre out of "the 8th ward" as we called it, I got used to seeing them, and today it's no big deal at all.

[Kimberlyfaye]

I would agree with Kate. I would add from my point of view, clothing doesn't make the person. Sure it looks nice but inside we're more than just what we're wearing. One day maybe everyone will be able to wear whatever they want and there wont be any more gender defined clothing. Women have been fighting for equal rights for years and it seems now they have caught up in some ways and overtaken us in others. This post for example. Women can wear anything they like from male or female ranges and she is totally accepted. I've noticed too that some of those barriers have started to fall. It might take a few more years or even a lot more. But one day a dress will be unisex.

I'll join the fight girls. I know some of you are in the closet and happy to be there but those who aren't, I'm with you. We need to stand up and be accepted for who we are not what we wear.

Here's to the future :)

[Wildaboutheels]

NO ONE can read minds. So claiming to know what "society" thinks and/or will "accept" is foolish. Claiming it over and over still won't make it true. No matter how many people here claim it. There are way too many people here who have been going out for years wearing an article or two or three of obviously women's clothing items making no attempt to pass themselves off as women who have NEVER had a problem.

Crossdressing is a "turn on" in many various ways for most men, obviously mentally as well as physically unless one were to believe that most participants at this Forum are lying. Mostly because men are VISUAL creatures. Women for the most part, ARE NOT VISUAL CREATURES which is why so few crossdress.

I'd be willing to bet that blind male CDers are about as common as purple kangaroos.

[Lady Catherine]

I would love to be able to put on a skirt and some nice boots with a t-shirt and go out without having to put up with all the bullshit. I also like to dress all the way on occation. Really wish we could us be us without prejudice. Maybe my grandkids will be able to. Peace all.

[kellycan27]

Because they don't wish to appear to be men?

[Marlana]

I agree that it would be nice if we as cd's could go out and not be frowned upon by the general public. Times are changing, but until we actually go out in mass quantities, people will always be frowning on us. It's a status thing ya know. It sucks. I would love to be able to throw on a skirt and go to work, but I would be laughed out of the place and my boss would tell me to go home and change.

[Daisy41]

Women don't cross dress because... oh wait, we have a whole FtM section these forums. In all fairness, I think women don't cross dress simply because they don't want to. A lot of "male" clothing they can get away with doesn't give them the appearance of a male body. Where as a lot us will cd to present the illusion of being female. Obviously, not all of us are trying to pass and simply want to wear what we want to wear, but I think we might be kidding ourselves to think that a woman wearing a guy's button up shirt has the same affect of a guy wearing a blouse.

[Moxie]

Even if we women couldn't wear what we wanted, I very much doubt that crossdressing would exist like it does with men. Look back a few decades and compare!

We don't covet the outward appearance of men like you do women. Instead, we envy your power or status and work to have this for ourselves. Many women DO have this, and they did it without growing moustaches and packing their pantsuits.

If you want the public to see this as a clothing choice then dress without the props! Otherwise, embrace the confusion because even after reading many pages of this forum, I still find this one of the strangest human traits I've encountered, and I've since realized so do many of you.

If we can't understand it, how will Joe Public??

[mistunderstood]

Want to know why we FTM's can dress how we want? WE TRY TO BLEND IN. We do not try to out dress other men around us. We do not try to dress in a style from the past. We study what other guys wear. we are realistic about what works to make us appear male.
Yes we can wear men's clothes and no one cares but in the trans community and lesbian community we are sell outs and not wanted so life is not all roses for us either.

[Jamie001]

Because they don't wish to appear to be men?

Kelly,

I believe that you are partially correct, however there is another issues that need to be pointed-out. Assume that a man decides to wear a skirt to work while appearing as a man. No fake boobs or other accoutrements that crossdressers normally add to appear as a woman. So essentially, we have a man in a dress. It is almost certain that he will be disciplined and sent home from work for improper attire. On the other hand, if a woman were to wear a man's suit and tie to work, I can guarantee you that she would not be disciplined and sent home. She may even be complimented on her alternative fashion choice. I believe that this is the double-standard that is reality today.


but I think we might be kidding ourselves to think that a woman wearing a guy's button up shirt has the same affect of a guy wearing a blouse.

Why, please explain? I don't understand.

[Eryn]

Want to know why we FTM's can dress how we want? WE TRY TO BLEND IN.

In fairness, quite a few MtFs do exactly the same thing but of course we don't stand out either. I don't consider myself a sell-out at all. I'm doing exactly what I want to do and if someone else doesn't like it that is their problem, not mine. They are free to do whatever they want too!

This topic gets rehashed frequently. There is certainly an interesting asymmetry in the MTF versus FTM demographics but nobody I've seen has really presented a definitive and plausable explanation for the lopsided numbers.

[Kate T]

If you want the public to see this as a clothing choice then dress without the props! Otherwise, embrace the confusion because even after reading many pages of this forum, I still find this one of the strangest human traits I've encountered, and I've since realized so do many of you.

If we can't understand it, how will Joe Public??

Doormat is correct, for a majority it is not about "clothing choice" and "skirts are comfortable" blah blah but expressing a gender. That is why so many CD's dress with the props, even when not going out in public. It is more about self image than anything else in my opinion.



I believe that you are partially correct, however there is another issues that need to be pointed-out. Assume that a man decides to wear a skirt to work while appearing as a man. No fake boobs or other accoutrements that crossdressers normally add to appear as a woman. So essentially, we have a man in a dress. It is almost certain that he will be disciplined and sent home from work for improper attire. On the other hand, if a woman were to wear a man's suit and tie to work, I can guarantee you that she would not be disciplined and sent home. She may even be complimented on her alternative fashion choice. I believe that this is the double-standard that is reality today.

********. Sorry. Women probably actually have MORE pressure on them to dress in a particular way or particular attire for work. I would be willing to bet money that if a woman turned up for work to an office job or say sales assistant without makeup and wearing mens shorts, unshaven legs and a mens shirt that they would be asked to see the manager for a discussion at their coffee break.

[ReineD]

The answer is simple Hon. Women are not considered CDers when they wear guy stuff because they are women. They do CD when getting dolled up to the "nines", however as that is not their normal everyday thing.

AAAGGGRRRR! WE'RE NOT WEARING GUY STUFF!!! And the rest of your statement is so entrenched in CD mindspeak that it blows my mind. :D

I hope you were kidding, ... but I wonder if your joke hides your true opinion? :)

I've come to the conclusion that those of you who keep insisting that women wear men's clothes when they wear pant suits have absolutely no eye for detail, and frankly, I wonder how effective you are at presenting as women with such a pronounced lack of discernment.

Look at what this suit does for this woman's body. It is actually cut to accommodate her Breasts, Waist, and Hips! lol Use the roll-over zoom and also look at her figure from the back:

http://www.dillards.com/product/Tahari-by-ASL-Pinstripe-2Piece-Pant-Suit_301_-1_301_503356364?df=03771196_zi_black_white

Now look at the shape of this man's suit, and look at him from behind too. This suit is not cut to accommodate a woman's body. Can you all not see the difference?

http://www1.macys.com/shop/product/michael-by-michael-kors-suit-charcoal-stripe?ID=702030&CategoryID=22610#fn=sp%3D1%26spc%3D77%26ruleId%3D6 6%26slotId%3D10

And the other huge difference is that the average woman who wears the pant suit above will not even think about wearing the suit that is cut for a man's body, plus the man's shirt, tie, men's socks and shoes (unless he is FtM), packing, binding, wearing shoulder pads sufficient to have a man's shoulders, pumping iron to get his biceps, getting a man's haircut, a man's watch, a man's wedding band, and finding ways to appear as if there is beard growth.

CDers, on the other hand, wear wigs, makeup, bras, forms, hip pads, waist cinchers, women's shoes, hose, perfume, jewelry, and purses.

It's OK, you're all allowed to do this, but please stop saying that women are wearing men's things. :p

[Eryn]

While mentioning that women's items are cut to fit their bodies I am sometimes rather surprised to find that a lot of women's clothes seem to be cut to fit my "mannish" figure. My figure, such that it is, seems to be closer to those department store mannequins than the mannequins are to normally proportioned GGs.

I was out looking for a holiday dress and found one that looked great on me. I'm 6'2", 170, size 12, have a modest 38B bustline, and not much of a defined waist. I don't wear hip padding, but the dress fit like it was tailored and I don't see how a woman with larger hips could have fit into it. I seem to run into a lot of clothes cut this way and can see why some GGs lament that good-fitting clothes are difficult for them to find.

[ReineD]

My SO finds it much easier to get dresses to fit, than two piece outfits or even pyjama sets, which I think is common for CDers. She has to buy a top that is one or two sizes larger than the bottom, even when she wears her breast forms and hip pads, and this is to accommodate her shoulders. If she didn't wear any breast forms though, even the dresses wouldn't hang correctly. And she is not heavy.

With the dresses, I think that clothing manufacturers must accommodate a wide variety of women's shapes and heights, and many are designed to be fairly flexible. I personally prefer a tailored fit and so there are a few brand names that I try to stick to that I know will fit me like a glove. If the dress is tailored I have a hard time finding one that is long bodied enough (the waist of the dress is always too high on me) and I fare better when I find sizes for tall women, same as in one piece bathing suits.

[Sara Jessica]

There are certain things which are givens...


Women happen to have more fashion choices.
99.whatever percent of men are all good with not having the fashion choices that women have.
Women who choose to wear stuff other than dresses, high heels, lacey lingerie, hosiery daily, etc. are in no way any less of a woman by virtue of their fashion selection. Most can rock the uber-casual jeans & a top and remain unmistakably feminine.
Women exercising their wide variety of fashion choices are in no way "crossdressing" in a classic sense.



There is certainly an interesting asymmetry in the MTF versus FTM demographics but nobody I've seen has really presented a definitive and plausable explanation for the lopsided numbers.

I'll give it a try.

Roll with me on this one. This is based on something that I heard many years ago and I have NOTHING to back it up other than a reasonable interpretation of the numbers of such things we see in society.

This also takes a leap of faith when it comes to lumping in the TG experience (whether fetish to full-on CD'ing and even TS) with other things that might be considered afflictions or worse. Please know that I do not believe any of us suffers from being TG from the POV of it being an affliction. But this does assume that our TG nature is just that for many of us...nature, rather than a learned behavior.

OK, here goes...and yes, I'm going to try to keep it overly-simplistic.

In the development of the human embryo, if things stay the course we have a female. If a switch of some sort if flipped, then we have a male. It is this process which can be fraught with the potential for issues.

If one measures the things society considers to be outlier behavior, whether deviant from the norm or outright abhorrent, these things are usually more common among males. Not impossible for females but simply less likely.

Accepting a "nature" component and putting this into the context of TG, it would then make sense that this might explain the difference of MTF versus FTM demographics, that issues in our collective development make it more likely for males to demonstrate this propensity than females.

However, it would take a higher leap of faith and perhaps many more assumptions (including bringing in societal implications) to explain the distribution of CD versus TS within the respective communities.

[missmars]

because woman is less varous than man. there are more genious man and mor fool man than woman.

[Jenniferathome]

In my corner of the world, when women dresses in a menswear suit and full makeup or throws on her boyfriend's shirt over jeeans and skips the makeup she is readily accepted and even complemented on her choices. Later that night she can put on an LBD and heels and get a similar response. When she gets home she can change into women's panties that are dead ringers for a guys tighty whities and all is good with the world.

Man, this lament never stops. First, women do not, ever, wear a "menswear" suit. They wear tailored suits for women. While they may have a hint of similarity to the male version, they are unmistakenly feminine. I have never seen a woman out and about in her boyfriend's shirt. They just don't fit right! They are not crossdressing.

[linda allen]

Where I used to work, most of the workers were male. The uniforms were "male" uniforms and if a female worker wanted a uniform, she was told to try on the male uniforms and select whatever fit the best. Later, they contracted for "female" tailored uniforms as well. Still pants and shirts though.

[Angela Campbell]

It wasn't that long ago that women were not normally wearing pants at all. Dresses or skirts only. A woman was frowned upon if she did and considered abnormal. As more and more women began to wear these "men only" articles of clothing, and became more accepted with doing so the manufacturers of the clothes began to taylor the pants and other clothes for a female body. A woman doing so wore pants or jeans that were made for a man. So in a sense it started with women crossdressing and because of many doing so it became accepted. The difference is that when women did it they were not attempting to look like a man at all. When a man crossdresses he does try to look like a woman. Also remember that with many men crossdressing begins as a sexual thrill, or if not at the beginning (if started very young) it many times becomes a sexual thing. I have not heard of woman wearing tidy whiteys because it gives them a sexual thrill.

Face it. Women are allowed more leeway with experimentation in their looks and clothes than are men. A woman can wear a pair of mens jeans and tennis shoes and it is ok by all, while a man can never wear a bit of lace or a pair of pumps without someone thinking something is odd about it.

[LilSissyStevie]

The real reason that women don't crossdress is that it is culturally impossible. There is nothing that women could wear, outside of maybe a jock strap, that would raise any eyebrows. I can think of lots of examples of women wearing clothes from the men's department yet no one (including me) would consider them crossdressers.

My mother is a member of a very liberal congregation of Methodists. I met the female minister a few years ago when my step father died. When I met her she was wearing wingtip shoes, Docker slacks, alligator polo shirt, a belt from the men's department, wallet in her back pocket, and her hair was cut very short. Yet no one who saw her would think "crossdresser", they would probably think "lesbian" and they would be correct in this case. Although all her clothes were from the men's department, there was no mistaking that she was a woman. However, if a man were to wear just a skirt while making no effort to present as a woman, he would still be considered a crossdresser.

Arguing that women's jeans, for instance, are made for women is kind of disingenuous. When I was a teenager, there was no such thing as women's Levi's so girls bought "men's" Levi's to fit their hips and bunched them at the waist with a belt. There was no such thing as women's jeans until the '70s when the evil capitalists figured out there was a market for them. Even in those days, no one thought that girls wearing men's jeans were crossdressers. But you would not believe the crap I got for just having long hair. I'm literally lucky to be alive today.

In our culture, as it stands today, there are only two gendered clothing styles: female and unisex. I don't know why there is so much denial about this fact. Women can wear either style or a little of each but men can only wear the unisex style without drawing negative attention. There really isn't any such thing as menswear anymore. This was obvious to me a couple of years ago when Anne Hathaway did a skit at the Oscars wearing a tux and no one got the "joke" until James Franco came out in a dress - ha ha. Do I fret about the unfairness of it all? No!

I don't really have a dog in this fight since I relate more to drag queens than the typical female wannabe crossdresser. I don't worry about what the "average" woman wears. If all women decided today to wear only the unisex style, it wouldn't affect me one bit. In 1969 I participated in a student strike at my high school in part protesting the ban on girls wearing jeans (also the ban on long hair for boys and the ban on blacks having afros - we won.) Women should wear what they like. I wear what I like and what I like is considered by our culture to be ultra feminine. It doesn't matter to me that most women wouldn't be caught dead dressed like me when I'm "crossdressed" and I don't try very hard to dress like them.

Another way to look at it is that because I'm a male, I CAN crossdress, women can't.:tongueout

[Anita_2]

I think women are CD allso but it is normal in this fashion for women to wear socks and jeans but it is not normal for man to wear stockings and skirt - why it is so I dont untherstand??? Anyone nows answer?

[jennifer24]

I agree that it would be nice if we as cd's could go out and not be frowned upon by the general public. Times are changing, but until we actually go out in mass quantities, people will always be frowning on us. It's a status thing ya know. It sucks. I would love to be able to throw on a skirt and go to work, but I would be laughed out of the place and my boss would tell me to go home and change.

I agree with you Marlana, it would be nice to not be frowned upon by others, its the sociaty we live in but things are starting to change, we have came along way with more bridges to cross but I can see in the for seeable future that these issues will not even come up.
Aand it is all a numbers thing, the more we out the more we will be excepted and eventally we become the norm.
I will also join the fight too.

[Terri]

When in Rome? .....

Ilike our wat of thinking Kelly!

[raksha GG]

For those who say women don't crossdress - I used to know a lovely lady, she was in her late 60's/early 70's, single and had been born and raised in the same small village in the Home Counties. She always wore a man's suit, shirt, hat and shoes. Not tailored for a woman - a MAN's suit. The villagers accepted her for who she was, and she was protected by then to a certain extent. She was my first knowledge of a crossdresser (apart from the Dame in Pantomime)


I think women are CD allso but it is normal in this fashion for women to wear socks and jeans but it is not normal for man to wear stockings and skirt - why it is so I dont untherstand??? Anyone nows answer?
I'd suggest it's to do with being 'ready and able' - a man could jump and leap and climb and ride in clothing which seperated the legs (only very recently known as trousers), a woman was far more restricted (and that was how men liked it) it also kept her female form hidden

[Anita_2]

I'd suggest it's to do with being 'ready and able' - a man could jump and leap and climb and ride in clothing which seperated the legs (only very recently known as trousers), a woman was far more restricted (and that was how men liked it) it also kept her female form hidden

Yes but that was good reason – later excuse for CD - in princip lot of women is CD – I now a few which are always wearing trousers and socks (man socks) with veery little makeup but no one has no any comment for that, I think they are more CD orientation.

[ReineD]

... with veery little makeup but no one has no any comment for that, I think they are more CD orientation.

Women are not born with makeup on and they are changing their natural appearance by wearing it. It is widely, inexpensively manufactured today in a plethora of products and colors, and in my opinion the average woman buys into the false ideal that she needs the makeup to hide her flaws or enhance certain of her natural features, in order to attain the same level of facial perfection that models or actresses have. But, it is very much a false ideal constructed by the fashion industry. In my opinion.

The most beautiful women need very little makeup at all. And the most secure women, do not feel the need to wear it all the time. This does not mean that they wish to present as men and it is a mistake to believe that women who don't wear makeup are more "CD oriented".

This woman, who was a child model and has been a style and beauty editor, explains it better than me:

http://www.xojane.com/beauty/why-i-dont-wear-tons-makeup-even-though-thats-what-men-prefer

[Eryn]

I find an article about not wearing makeup rather ironic when the author, in the second sentence, says "I rarely leave the house without mascara and blush." Most women in my circle of observation, limit their everyday makeup to lipstick only.

That said, I don't think that there is any mass conspiracy on the part of the fashion industry to force women to wear makeup. Women are themselves a willing part of the formula, because they make the decision to buy the products. If the fashion industry really had that much unilateral power then why aren't they pushing cosmetics to men? After all, that represents a vast untapped market and there are plenty of willing spokesmen out there, male entertainment personalities who themselves wear theatrical makeup.

[Jenniferathome]

AAAGGGRRRR! WE'RE NOT WEARING GUY STUFF!!! And the rest of your statement is so entrenched in CD mindspeak that it blows my mind. :D. ........

CDers, on the other hand, wear wigs, makeup, bras, forms, hip pads, waist cinchers, women's shoes, hose, perfume, jewelry, and purses.

It's OK, you're all allowed to do this, but please stop saying that women are wearing men's things. :p

They ain't going to understand. The ability of the crossdresser to deny reality is astounding. Maybe there is a different way to think about crossdressing: you are not crossdressing if there is no emotional attachment to the act and visa versa. Think about that.... It works.

[Jamie001]

AAAGGGRRRR! WE'RE NOT WEARING GUY STUFF!!!

Reine,

It is true that women wear guy's stuff including Boyfriend Jeans, Boyfriend Shoes, men's watches, neckties, men's jackets and many other men's items but that do it as women. They don't attempt to deceive folks into thinking that they are men. It is exactly the same as when I wear capri pants, women's sandals, and toenail polish because I don't attempt to deceive folks into thinking I'm a woman. I'm just a feminine guy that likes to wear women's fashion. Several years ago there was an article in the New York Times about women wearing large men's high-end watches like men's Rolexes. The article encouraged women to do this. Also, if you read women's magazines such as Cosmo, Elle, etc, there have been many articles over the last 5 years about how to raid your husband's/boyfriend's closet and incorporate male items into your wardrobe. Please do some checking and you will confirm what I'm telling you. Crossing the gender barrier of fashion is encourage for women. As someone here stated, there are two categories of clothing: 1. Women's Clothing and Unisex Clothing. Men are only permitted to wear unisex clothing. :straightface:

[Gaz]

Man, this lament never stops. First, women do not, ever, wear a "menswear" suit. They wear tailored suits for women. While they may have a hint of similarity to the male version, they are unmistakenly feminine. I have never seen a woman out and about in her boyfriend's shirt. They just don't fit right! They are not crossdressing.

Not always. My wife has (in her words) "gigantic humongous mongoloid feet" that she has a hard time finding comfortable shoes in. (She's WAY overstating it, she's a 9.5-10, and prefers wide widths) and has often bought "men's" tennis shoes because she finds them more comfortable. Similarly, when we were dating, if she stayed over at my place, she would snag a t-shirt and pair of boxers from my drawer, and wear those around my apartment before bed. Without asking, thinking nothing of it, and without me batting an eyelid.

Now imagine if the tables were turned. If a 20-something guy were dating a girl, stayed over at her place, and came out of her bedroom wearing one of her camis and pair of her panties? Methinks an eyebrow would be batted. (Hell, methinks a head would be batted!)

Also worth bearing in mind that not too long ago, a woman in a t-shirt and jeans - be it cut for her or not - was frowned upon. And high heels, remember, were originally made for and worn by men, in the court of Louis XIV.

The difference, I think, is that women got sick of being stereotyped and pigeon-holed, and decided en masse that enough was enough. If they wanted to wear jeans and a t-shirt, not wear a bra, or wear a suit and tie to work, then men had no bloody right to tell them otherwise. And they were 100% right. The urge for women to wear more masculine clothes wasn't borne out of an urge to be masculine, but from an urge to be equal. But no mistake, the women at the forefront of this movement were indeed crossdressing. Those tailored suits for women you speak of didn't appear from nowhere, they appeared much later because enterprising young businesses realized this was here to stay, saw a need for such a thing, and filled it. Were men to do the same - rise up and demand equality - then I think the result wouldn't be acceptance of men in women's clothing, it would result in a whole new line of heels, skirts, and dresses designed specifically for men.

But then it wouldn't be crossdressing anymore, just as women wearing a pant suit from Ann Taylor isn't.

[ReineD]

That said, I don't think that there is any mass conspiracy on the part of the fashion industry to force women to wear makeup. Women are themselves a willing part of the formula, because they make the decision to buy the products.

You're correct, we're part of the problem, myself included. I buy into it just like everyone else. My SO and I went out tonight and I put on foundation, blush, I filled in my brows with eye shadow, a touch of eyeshadow on my lids, mascara, lip liner & lipstick.

We're all products of our environment, an environment that tells us that we are prettier if we alter our looks by wearing makeup. My objection is, why can't we be pretty enough without painting our faces? Who decides that women look better with makeup?

Years ago I saw a talk show, I can't remember if it was Oprah or Dr. Phil. The topic was women who feel they are not "good enough" when they go out without makeup. Or they feel naked without it. This was sad indeed. I'm not saying that every woman falls prey to this, but there are a lot who do and the wearing of makeup is so much a part of our culture that few women (in my opinion) ever stop to think about how unnatural it really is to wear makeup. We just put it on without questioning it, maybe not to run to the grocery store, but certain when we go out like I did tonight. And then we have members in this forum who believe that we are masculine when we DON'T wear it, which is absurd if you stop to consider that we are not feminine enough when we are in our natural states.

The woman who's blog I linked to - there are many voices that echo her concerns. She was not saying to not put on makeup at all, just that it's OK if a woman chooses to not wear any sometimes and when she does choose to buy a product, she needn't become a victim to all the marketing hype.

It's not just the makeup. It's the idea that we need to have a certain type of body, a certain size of breasts, etc, in order to meet the beauty "ideal". I've been blessed with height and good proportions without having to work at it much and all my life some friends have said how they wished they had a body like mine. I can't tell you how sad this makes me, because in my eyes each and every one of these women is beautiful just the way she is. By what standards do these women compare themselves to? It is my opinion that they subconsciously compare themselves to the thousands upon thousands images of ideal beauty they've seen throughout their lives in magazines, catalogs, on TV, the cinema, the same media that shows women with perfect hair, perfect teeth, perfect makeup, perfect clothes, ideal figures. And it begins with the Barbie doll. LOL

OK. Sorry for the rant. When I talk to my friends about this, they all agree. I'll get off the soapbox now. I don't expect to convince anyone here, and that's OK. :)

[Anita_2]

Women are not born with makeup on and they are changing their natural appearance by wearing it. It is widely, inexpensively manufactured today in a plethora of products and colors, and in my opinion the average woman buys into the false ideal that she needs the makeup to hide her flaws or enhance certain of her natural features, in order to attain the same level of facial perfection that models or actresses have. But, it is very much a false ideal constructed by the fashion industry. In my opinion.

The most beautiful women need very little makeup at all. And the most secure women, do not feel the need to wear it all the time. This does not mean that they wish to present as men and it is a mistake to believe that women who don't wear makeup are more "CD oriented".

This woman, who was a child model and has been a style and beauty editor, explains it better than me:

http://www.xojane.com/beauty/why-i-dont-wear-tons-makeup-even-though-thats-what-men-prefer


I think you have not understand me well (maybe is problem in my English I have no practice in conversation for a years) my idea was to say:
1.Women can dress what they wont and what they feel pleasurable in – no one will tell that they are CD.
2.Women must not be representative dressed as women by tradition (I think skirt an make up) and no one will tell that she is CD or lesbian.
That is reason why there is no women CD – no one in this days is putting barriers in womans dressing and if women have CD orientation she can realize it with any problem even she must not know that it is CD orientation.

For mans part of communities the rules in dressing are strictly set – as it was for women 100 years ago.

[WifeofWrenchette]

I haven't worn makeup in at least 20 years. I don't and haven't worn a bra in the last 10 years. I hate make up and I hate bras, pantyhose, and dresses. I wear shorts and tee shirts or pants on occasion. They are ladies clothes bought in the ladies section. I consider myself feminine. Perhaps others look down upon on me not wearing the accoutrements of females, but I look at it at as their problem, not mine.

[Anita_2]

I haven't worn makeup in at least 20 years. I don't and haven't worn a bra in the last 10 years. I hate make up and I hate bras, pantyhose, and dresses. I wear shorts and tee shirts or pants on occasion. They are ladies clothes bought in the ladies section. I consider myself feminine. Perhaps others look down upon on me not wearing the accoutrements of females, but I look at it at as their problem, not mine.

Thank you that is what I want to tell - standard for womens dressing is another and no one cares what it is. May be if one day we have make up, bras, pantyhose, and dresses on mans clothes department somebody will ask "Why there is no more CDs?"

[Sandra]

I haven't worn makeup in at least 20 years. I don't and haven't worn a bra in the last 10 years. I hate make up and I hate bras, pantyhose, and dresses. I wear shorts and tee shirts or pants on occasion. They are ladies clothes bought in the ladies section. I consider myself feminine. Perhaps others look down upon on me not wearing the accoutrements of females, but I look at it at as their problem, not mine.


Well said :clap::clap::clap:

[Sara Jessica]

It is true that women wear guy's stuff including Boyfriend Jeans, Boyfriend Shoes, men's watches, neckties, men's jackets and many other men's items but that do it as women. They don't attempt to deceive folks into thinking that they are men.

More often than not, these styles are inspired by menswear as part of some sort of a fashion movement. The shoe thing is really "in" right now with heels sporting features you'd normally see on men's wingtips and stuff like that. Not really my thing when I'm looking for heels and I'm guessing it will be a fleeting fad this season that will not stand the test of time.

"Boyfriend Jeans" are simply another cut of denim that works better for some women's figures. They come in all shapes and sizes just like we do. Men's watches? This trend has been around for quite a while but again, it's not about a woman running out to buy a "man's" watch. Instead, you see watch faces that have grown larger over the years. A woman is no longer relegated to the small nickel-sized watch face, she has choices. "Boyshort" panties? Shaped a bit like "tighty whities" but more often than not, unmistakably feminine in materials (ie - lace).

I have yet to encounter any sort of visible trend among women in general to co-op components of a man's wardrobe as their own other than inspiration as I talk about above. Even when I see a woman who I perceive as being a lesbian with more of a butch presentation (which is more of a gender statement rather than one which is fashion forward), I don't pick apart her clothes to see if "oooh, she might be wearing man clothing". I assume it's women's, perhaps plain, but it's really a non-issue to me when it comes to perception.


It is exactly the same as when I wear capri pants, women's sandals, and toenail polish because I don't attempt to deceive folks into thinking I'm a woman. I'm just a feminine guy that likes to wear women's fashion.

Don't get me wrong Jamie, I think I totally get where you are coming from. But by the same token, and I'm simply being honest here, I would perceive you the same as the butch lesbian described above, likely as a gay man...and I'm supposedly enlightened about this TG thing. Your presentation as described is not fashion-forward and blazing a trail for males everywhere to admire, follow & emulate. Instead, it will be perceived as being outlier by most people out there.


OK. Sorry for the rant. When I talk to my friends about this, they all agree. I'll get off the soapbox now. I don't expect to convince anyone here, and that's OK. :)

You're among friends Reine, and some of us get it.


I haven't worn makeup in at least 20 years. I don't and haven't worn a bra in the last 10 years. I hate make up and I hate bras, pantyhose, and dresses. I wear shorts and tee shirts or pants on occasion. They are ladies clothes bought in the ladies section. I consider myself feminine. Perhaps others look down upon on me not wearing the accoutrements of females, but I look at it at as their problem, not mine.

You are unmistakably feminine despite the accoutrements (or lack thereof) by virtue of the fact you are a woman.

It must drive you crazy to see some of the discussions here on those things you steer clear of. I know some women who have been able to wrap their head around the TG thing and then can fall back on some of the more superficial aspects and kind of "get it". I'm sure you do to but still, I can imagine you rolling your eyes a fair amount!!!


Thank you that is what I want to tell - standard for womens dressing is another and no one cares what it is. May be if one day we have make up, bras, pantyhose, and dresses on mans clothes department somebody will ask "Why there is no more CDs?"

Don't worry, I'm pretty confident in saying that what you describe is NEVER going to happen.

[sometimes_miss]

Women can and do crossdress. It's just that, nobody notices when they do, because they're been commandeering their boyfriends/husbands/brothers clothing for decades.

[Kassandra56]

It wasn't that long ago that women were not normally wearing pants at all. Dresses or skirts only. A woman was frowned upon if she did and considered abnormal.

I was hoping someone would raise this point because it's 100% true. Women wore male clothes back then to make a statement, it was all part of the movement to be accepted as equals to men and gain their freedom. There are probably many on this forum who are not old enough to remember the events of this period in time but a woman wearing pants was considered very rebellious. I can remember walking in our town with my mother and she was shocked at such as sight, a few years later she two was wearing pants but they were cut for women and sold as such.

I agree with much of what has been said. Women are not cross-dressing they are wearing the fashion of the day. The fashion market like every other business is about making money, if there becomes a market for male skirts they will make them and market them as such but I doubt that will be in my lifetime. Therefore as I like to wear dresses, skirts etc. I buy clothes made for women and I'm considered a cross-dresser, my wife on the other hand wears pants, shirts etc. made for women and therefore is not a cross-dresser. I think even if male skirts were to become common I would still buy the female versions because the material, colors and style of the male versions would not be what I would want to wear, so even then I would still be a cross-dresser.

[Angela Campbell]

Women wore male clothes back then to make a statement, it was all part of the movement to be accepted as equals to men and gain their freedom.

Although this is true I am amused because to me they have always been more than equals to us. They represent what we all should aspire to be. They were brave enough to submit themselves to the wrath of breaking societys rules and now have the freedom to dress as they choose. But we dress for different reasons.

[Anita_2]

You are unmistakably feminine despite the accoutrements (or lack thereof) by virtue of the fact you are a woman.

It must drive you crazy to see some of the discussions here on those things you steer clear of. I know some women who have been able to wrap their head around the TG thing and then can fall back on some of the more superficial aspects and kind of "get it". I'm sure you do to but still, I can imagine you rolling your eyes a fair amount!!!



Don't worry, I'm pretty confident in saying that what you describe is NEVER going to happen.

OK I agree with you at all special in this answers. But what is a problem or where is a problem??? For me problem is in head few hundred years ago the thights has been specialy for man and for woman only stockings at 17 cent. womens started with thights in this days .... they have all .....

Also for all GG no one has told that you are CD only because you are wearing pants and you are not using make up. I like women in suspender belt and stockings and that is sexy for me. But you have more choice in dressing so womens CD are not marked or we can not see it easy. But for all GG which are wondering why some man is CD and they are thinking womens are not – question “what you are doing on this site?”

[Jamie001]

Don't get me wrong Jamie, I think I totally get where you are coming from. But by the same token, and I'm simply being honest here, I would perceive you the same as the butch lesbian described above, likely as a gay man...and I'm supposedly enlightened about this TG thing. Your presentation as described is not fashion-forward and blazing a trail for males everywhere to admire, follow & emulate. Instead, it will be perceived as being outlier by most people out there.


Sara Jessica,

I fail to understand why you would perceive me as a gay man. That really doesn't make sense. If you have any gay friends or have ever visited a gay bar, you would know that gay men tend to dress like men, in men's clothing. A gay man would be wearing an Armani Suit rather than being dressed in feminine attire. I really would have thought that you would perceive me as someone that is "gender enhanced" or that has an alternative gender presentation. Gender Queer or a Gender F***.

[Tamara Croft]

It wasn't that long ago that women were not normally wearing pants at all.

It wasn't? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920s_in_fashion I think you find it was a very long time ago. I am so fed up with reading that women are CD'ing for wearing pants/trousers... even though they bought them from THE WOMANS SECTION!! Women have been wearing pants/trousers since the 1920's, get over it.... :rolleyes:

[Anita_2]

It wasn't? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920s_in_fashion I think you find it was a very long time ago. I am so fed up with reading that women are CD'ing for wearing pants/trousers... even though they bought them from THE WOMANS SECTION!! Women have been wearing pants/trousers since the 1920's, get over it.... :rolleyes:

With my respect I think you missed point at all!

[Sara Jessica]

Sara Jessica,

I fail to understand why you would perceive me as a gay man. That really doesn't make sense. If you have any gay friends or have ever visited a gay bar, you would know that gay men tend to dress like men, in men's clothing. A gay man would be wearing an Armani Suit rather than being dressed in feminine attire. I really would have thought that you would perceive me as someone that is "gender enhanced" or that has an alternative gender presentation. Gender Queer or a Gender F***.

OK, I see where I was unclear.

Just as the woman who I might perceive as being lesbian might be making more of a gender statement by virtue of her mode of dress, I'm still perceiving her as a lesbian first with gender coming immediately thereafter.

So if I ran into you presenting as you describe, I would likely default to gay male and then see the gender statement immediately thereafter as well.

I really wouldn't see either of you as crossdressers in a classic sense as my first or second impression.

Now here's a kicker. If I encountered a full-on crossdresser, a male presenting as female, my first impression would be straight-dude-crossdresser. But the average Muggle is going to default to "gay male" despite the valid reasons you have described as to why that wouldn't necessarily be the case.

Confused? I am too!!! :)

[Tamara Croft]

With my respect I think you missed point at all! And with all due respect, I wasn't posting to the OP, I was replying to the quote I quoted... so I didn't miss any point whatsoever tyvm!

[Anita_2]

And with all due respect, I wasn't posting to the OP, I was replying to the quote I quoted... so I didn't miss any point whatsoever tyvm!

Sorry if something in my answer make you angry.

[Gaz]

Women have been wearing pants/trousers since the 1920's, get over it.... :rolleyes:

Will all due respect, I think in the grand scheme of things, less than 100 years over the scope of the advent of human civilization is probably "not long ago." Also, the 1920s were in the heart of the womens' suffrage movement, and very much a period when women weren't wearing pants because they were trying to express their masculine side, but more of a statement of "how dare you suppress my rights."

It is true that at one point in history, the notion of women in pants was just as frowned upon by society as men in dresses are today. It might not be recent at this point, and it's completely correct to say that a pantsuit that a woman buys for work is an item of clothing cut and made for women and isn't crossdressing. But at one point, women who were at the very forefront of "Bugger this, I want to wear pants" broke from social convention, and wore male clothing as an expression of equality.

I absolutely agree that women who buy "male-styled" clothes that are purchased from the womens' section certainly don't qualify as FtM CDing. But I can't see how anyone can the fact that when a girlfriend or wife decides to wear an item of clothing from their boyfriend/husband - be it a t-shirt and pair of boxers to sleep in, or wearing a sports jersey or dress shirt after a shower, it is absolutely NO different than if the opposite were true. When a woman does this, she is wearing an item of clothing that is designed, cut, and sold specifically for men, and that is NO different than if I were to wear one of my wife's cami/panty sets to bed, or if I slipped into one of her nighties having gotten out of the shower. The only difference is that one is socially acceptable, and one is not.

That, I think, is where the OP is going with this thread, and is arguing that there is indeed a double standard.

[Jamie001]

OK, I see where I was unclear.

Just as the woman who I might perceive as being lesbian might be making more of a gender statement by virtue of her mode of dress, I'm still perceiving her as a lesbian first with gender coming immediately thereafter.

So if I ran into you presenting as you describe, I would likely default to gay male and then see the gender statement immediately thereafter as well.

I really wouldn't see either of you as crossdressers in a classic sense as my first or second impression.

Now here's a kicker. If I encountered a full-on crossdresser, a male presenting as female, my first impression would be straight-dude-crossdresser. But the average Muggle is going to default to "gay male" despite the valid reasons you have described as to why that wouldn't necessarily be the case.

Confused? I am too!!! :)

It makes sense to me that the general public would react to any male that deviates from the men's uniform of pants, shirt, and fugly clunky shoes as being gay. They have been taught since they were little children that men don't deviate from the standard men's uniform or there will be hell to pay. On the other hand, you as a transgendered individual should realize that gender is a continuum and that there are many forms of presentation along that continuum and that they are completely unrelated to sexuality. How many hundreds of times has that been discussed on this site? I don't believe that you have ever been to a gay bar or have any gay friends or you would realize that they are not into crossdressing or mixing feminine items into their presentation. If fact, the majority of gay folks don't understand men that incorporate feminine items into their presentation either as a Gender Queer or as a full-on crossdresser. They want men to look like men, otherwise they would be attracted to and date women.

[Eryn]

Folks, there was no point of sea change where women suddenly started to wear trousers. In the 19th Century West women often wore trousers simply out of practicality for their daily activities. There were certainly some FTM CDers in that era like Charley Parkhurst, but then, like today, most women did what they had to do to get on with their business without any pretense of being male. Herding cattle in windy Wyoming was not done on a side-saddle, but astride!

[Grace85]

This is a sentiment my SO expresses frequently. Also living in the Northeast US, I think it mainly comes down to the fact that there is a much wider array of clothes that are acceptable for women than for men. A woman wearing a suit that's a men's cut will draw looks and sometimes homophobic slurs, but other than that there are not a lot of garments out there that are not close enough to a "female" style that they'd be noticed.

[sissystephanie]

Women do crossdress, some of them quite often. But also a lot of their clothes are made to look like those of men. My own late wife used to buy some men's clothes because she liked the way they looked. When she was alive she used to do my makeup and fix my wig so that I could go out as Stephanie. She died 7 years ago, and I decided to go out as Stephanie without makeup or a wig. So I go out as a guy in feminine clothes! Sure I get some looks, but I have never heard one single comment about what I am wearing. Other than being asked where I bought the skirt, dress, or top that I am wearing. The vast majority of people simply don't care!! Of course, if you dress to be noticed that is different. I dress to blend in, and apparently I do.

[Sara Jessica]

It makes sense to me that the general public would react to any male that deviates from the men's uniform of pants, shirt, and fugly clunky shoes as being gay. They have been taught since they were little children that men don't deviate from the standard men's uniform or there will be hell to pay. On the other hand, you as a transgendered individual should realize that gender is a continuum and that there are many forms of presentation along that continuum and that they are completely unrelated to sexuality. How many hundreds of times has that been discussed on this site? I don't believe that you have ever been to a gay bar or have any gay friends or you would realize that they are not into crossdressing or mixing feminine items into their presentation. If fact, the majority of gay folks don't understand men that incorporate feminine items into their presentation either as a Gender Queer or as a full-on crossdresser. They want men to look like men, otherwise they would be attracted to and date women.

Jamie, don't sweat it. Your hetero-flexible wardrobe and way of life is safe and sound.

Yes, I of all peeps should and do in fact understand the differences and like I said, at the end of the day I'm sure I would. But why should one's first impression of someone presenting as you do be any different than a first impression of a woman presenting in mannish clothing? It happens that when I encounter the aforementioned (presumed) lesbian, my internal sense says just that...lesbian. I'm guessing it would be the same exact thing with someone presenting like you do. Then again, I have never once encountered a mixed presentation male in the real world so I cannot say for certain what I would think. I'm just guessing.

And by the way, I happened to be in a gay bar about a week ago so I've been around the block a time or two. I was having too much fun with my friends to notice what everyone was wearing, particularly the gay dudes who were there.

[ReineD]

Women can and do crossdress. It's just that, nobody notices when they do, because they're been commandeering their boyfriends/husbands/brothers clothing for decades.

What does crossdressing mean to you? Maybe we have different definitions. :p

To me, it is more than just putting on one or two opposite-gendered items of clothing (like a woman who wears a fashion tie, or a man who paints his nails and wears capris) while at the same time unmistakenly and in all other aspects, presenting as one's birth gender. Crossdressing, the way it is presented in this forum (and in your avatar), is the complete adoption of the opposite sex "look", combined with an attempt at presenting as the opposite sex. Other than the few FtMs that I know who present full-on as men, I know no genetic women who do this. The vast majority of the women that I know, are presenting as women.




I absolutely agree that women who buy "male-styled" clothes that are purchased from the womens' section certainly don't qualify as FtM CDing.

But that's the whole point! Why are you saying that pants are "male-styled? This is no longer true. Pants are either female-styled when sold in women's stores, OR male-styled when sold in men's stores.

Even when you state your opinion that women who wear pants are not crossdressing, why are you adhering to terms that might have been used in the first half of last century? By your logic, I could say that lace, brocade, leggings, long curly hair, and red bucked shoes are "male-styled" if I still consider Louis XIV styles to be current! lol

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Louis_XIV_of_France.jpg/540px-Louis_XIV_of_France.jpg

We really do need to stop referring to a contemporary woman's mode of dress as being "male" anything.

[Diversity]

You're so right Sara! Many of us feel exactly the way you are feeling. I am now overcoming my own hesitations and am becoming more outgoing about this. I am going to continue on and on and on to gain the courage to dress the way I want to dress when I feel it is appropriate to do so (as I know my children would never understand, and I don't want to lose their respect). My wife is accepting, as long as she does not see it. Hopefully in time this will change. If it doesn't then I will respect this. However, what I am going to do is get to the point that I can go out in public someday, dressed as I wish. It's a ways off, but the day will come!
Keep powering on - you're not alone! Good luck to you!
Di

[Anita_2]

Will all due respect, I think in the grand scheme of things, less than 100 years over the scope of the advent of human civilization is probably "not long ago." Also, the 1920s were in the heart of the womens' suffrage movement, and very much a period when women weren't wearing pants because they were trying to express their masculine side, but more of a statement of "how dare you suppress my rights."

It is true that at one point in history, the notion of women in pants was just as frowned upon by society as men in dresses are today. It might not be recent at this point, and it's completely correct to say that a pantsuit that a woman buys for work is an item of clothing cut and made for women and isn't crossdressing. But at one point, women who were at the very forefront of "Bugger this, I want to wear pants" broke from social convention, and wore male clothing as an expression of equality.

I absolutely agree that women who buy "male-styled" clothes that are purchased from the womens' section certainly don't qualify as FtM CDing. But I can't see how anyone can the fact that when a girlfriend or wife decides to wear an item of clothing from their boyfriend/husband - be it a t-shirt and pair of boxers to sleep in, or wearing a sports jersey or dress shirt after a shower, it is absolutely NO different than if the opposite were true. When a woman does this, she is wearing an item of clothing that is designed, cut, and sold specifically for men, and that is NO different than if I were to wear one of my wife's cami/panty sets to bed, or if I slipped into one of her nighties having gotten out of the shower. The only difference is that one is socially acceptable, and one is not.

That, I think, is where the OP is going with this thread, and is arguing that there is indeed a double standard.

I agree and that is what I wont to tell


Women do crossdress, some of them quite often. But also a lot of their clothes are made to look like those of men. My own late wife used to buy some men's clothes because she liked the way they looked. When she was alive she used to do my makeup and fix my wig so that I could go out as Stephanie. She died 7 years ago, and I decided to go out as Stephanie without makeup or a wig. So I go out as a guy in feminine clothes! Sure I get some looks, but I have never heard one single comment about what I am wearing. Other than being asked where I bought the skirt, dress, or top that I am wearing. The vast majority of people simply don't care!! Of course, if you dress to be noticed that is different. I dress to blend in, and apparently I do.

Very nice but where are you living in some republic from future where everybody is free to expres what like?? Realy very nice if your expirience is such.

[sissystephanie]

Anita, I live in the state of Georgia in the U.S.A. This state is generally considered to be a real Redneck state. But as I said, the majority of people don't care how you dress, unless you are really in the extreme! Although I am actually 80 years old, I dress like a woman in her late 40's or early 50's. and I act like I belong in those clothes. BTW, I have been many places in the U.S.A. crossdressed while appearing as a man. I have also been to London, Paris, and Rome!!

[Anita_2]

Anita, I live in the state of Georgia in the U.S.A. This state is generally considered to be a real Redneck state. But as I said, the majority of people don't care how you dress, unless you are really in the extreme! Although I am actually 80 years old, I dress like a woman in her late 40's or early 50's. and I act like I belong in those clothes. BTW, I have been many places in the U.S.A. crossdressed while appearing as a man. I have also been to London, Paris, and Rome!!

Sorry I realy dont understand word "Redneck" - I have been also in London, Paris, Rome but in male mode. With my expirience that depends of part of city. But I am living in south Europe and everybody are accepting me as ex soldier, diver, biker and programmer - but to go out in skirt ... I think I will lose all business partners :)

[Shananigans]

I think my skinny jeans have like a 2 inch crotchal area...I'm not even sure a zipper is necessary. It could be argued that these pants that I wear have some ancestry to male fashion...but I'd be quite impressed to see a guy fit into these things. I think it can be assured that I'm not crossdressing.

When I see MtF CDs, I usually see someone trying to obtain the look of a woman...from wigs, hose, heels nail polish...sometimes, prosthetics. I think CDing has a lot to do with the intention behind it. If a GG is wearing male clothes with the intention of looking like a man, she's a CD. If a man, likes to wear girl pants just because he likes them...he's not CDing. In Alabama, it's getting to be pretty common to see guys wearing girl pants...especially, younger guys. But, I might be a little concerned for future fertility if I saw any of them in my style of pants...actually, that would be my first thought and not "OMG CD!" Also, if you fall into the camp where some people get really sexually excited about wearing female clothes, you are probably doing it with a different intention than me buying a pair of slacks. Sometimes, when I'm dressed all sexy, I feel sexy and come on more strongly to my SO...but, I've never actually felt like a sexual excitement over wearing certain clothing. So, again, there might be different intentions...and, not everyone has the same intentions. But, generally, if you are actually trying to look or pass as the opposite sex...or, if you have a sexual connection to clothing of the opposite sex that in general most other people don't experience...then, you are probably doing it for a differen reason than your average GG who thinks she's being cool by buying into the androgynous trend.

Also, side note...anything unisex should basically just be relabeled as "designed in such a way that it looks like crap on everyone." I am the current victim of unisex scrubs and polos lol...I look somewhat hilarious because of the bagginess in the shoulder and waits...not to mentions the 1 million inch inseam that holds nothing. I might start storing spare change there.

Wear what you like. You may or may not be considered a crossdresser in the very near future if it's just because you like skirts. People have a pretty good idea of what a TG person is over someone who just dresses different from everyone else. I'd refer back to your intentions...and, if it's just a style preference, start considering yourself written out of the "crossdresser camp" in a few years. Times 'a' changin...

[Sarasometimes]

AAAGGGRRRR! WE'RE NOT WEARING GUY STUFF!!! And the rest of your statement is so entrenched in CD mindspeak that it blows my mind. :D

I hope you were kidding, ... but I wonder if your joke hides your true opinion? :)

I've come to the conclusion that those of you who keep insisting that women wear men's clothes when they wear pant suits have absolutely no eye for detail, and frankly, I wonder how effective you are at presenting as women with such a pronounced lack of discernment.

Look at what this suit does for this woman's body. It is actually cut to accommodate her Breasts, Waist, and Hips! lol Use the roll-over zoom and also look at her figure from the back:

http://www.dillards.com/product/Tahari-by-ASL-Pinstripe-2Piece-Pant-Suit_301_-1_301_503356364?df=03771196_zi_black_white

Now look at the shape of this man's suit, and look at him from behind too. This suit is not cut to accommodate a woman's body. Can you all not see the difference?

http://www1.macys.com/shop/product/michael-by-michael-kors-suit-charcoal-stripe?ID=702030&CategoryID=22610#fn=sp%3D1%26spc%3D77%26ruleId%3D6 6%26slotId%3D10

And the other huge difference is that the average woman who wears the pant suit above will not even think about wearing the suit that is cut for a man's body, plus the man's shirt, tie, men's socks and shoes (unless he is FtM), packing, binding, wearing shoulder pads sufficient to have a man's shoulders, pumping iron to get his biceps, getting a man's haircut, a man's watch, a man's wedding band, and finding ways to appear as if there is beard growth.

CDers, on the other hand, wear wigs, makeup, bras, forms, hip pads, waist cinchers, women's shoes, hose, perfume, jewelry, and purses.

It's OK, you're all allowed to do this, but please stop saying that women are wearing men's things. :p

ReineD, thanks for wieghing in.

You are somewhat correct , certainly the way those pantsuits are cut but my point is that by it simply being a pantsuit it has a masculine characteristic. Women's blazers do have shoulder pads??
The existence of menswear this in the women's departments offer GG's the option to express thier gender expression but men currently don't have that same option.
Where can we find men's clothing that looks feminine? I have looked high and low in many Men's Departments for "My girlfriends blouse, cardigan, jeans..." In men's shoes they all look masculine but in Women's there are motorcycle boots, cowboy boots, army boots, Wingtipped flats and heels...Women's eyewear are men's frames of the past.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=women%27s+eyeglasses&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbo=d&biw=902&bih=668&tbm=isch&tbnid=NKfQreZ1_qf92M:&imgrefurl=http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Wholesale-2011-fashion-straw-sun-hat-summer-flat-roofed-hat-with-bowknot-lady-s-travel-hats/435187005.html&docid=rEQH9gA7Fue8bM&imgurl=http://img.alibaba.com/wsphoto/v0/404506388/Wholesale-fashion-cheap-women-ladies-glass-frame-students-plastic-resin-eyeglasses-clear-lens-wayfarer-glasses-accept.jpg&w=310&h=310&ei=HEumUIiqO8mt0AHj7YGQDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=630&vpy=288&dur=94&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=36&ty=95&sig=116651180367096678280&page=5&tbnh=163&tbnw=164&start=76&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:76,i:397

I have a very strong perscription so I need small frames. I picked out a pair of simple wire framed glasses with no detailing, from the lady's side of the shop and 3 different salespeople asked me if I knew they were women's frames.

My contention is that women can express their masculine feeling through clothes and be embraced and the same is not true for males. Women can express thier desires to do masculine things and be encouraged but not the other way around at this point in time.

Which of these sentences is more likely in NE USA today:
A young women expresses the desire to be a welder and shares this publicly and she encouraged to do it by most. A young man expresses a desire to be a dental hygenist and is encouraged to do it by most.

My whole point is that for me, I believe that the societal norms of where I live are the main reason I go out and try to blend/pass instead of just wearing my ballet flat styled shoes from Kohl's men's shoe department. Oh yeah and also because those shoes don't exist.

To those who say go out and make it the norm, not all of us can do that. I feel it would be unfair for me to expose my family to the social reaction of being an activist. My hat goes off to those who can and do!

[Sarasometimes]

Man, this lament never stops. First, women do not, ever, wear a "menswear" suit. They wear tailored suits for women. While they may have a hint of similarity to the male version, they are unmistakenly feminine. I have never seen a woman out and about in her boyfriend's shirt. They just don't fit right! They are not crossdressing.

I strongly dissagree Jennifer with your about "Menswear" suit comment. Often times menswear is in the name of the item!!! Sure, it is a women's suit, but it clearly has masculine lines. There are numerous "My boyfriends.... that allow the wearer to let those around her know she wishes to express some masculinity. There is no counterpart for men. I do agree with your last comment and that is, in fact, the Title of this thread! So we agree on atleast half of this topic.
As far as this Lament never stopping, there are also Laments from GG's that never stop either, such as "If men had to go through childbirth there would be any babies born...

[Jamie001]

I strongly dissagree Jennifer with your about "Menswear" suit comment. Often times menswear is in the name of the item!!! Sure, it is a women's suit, but it clearly has masculine lines. There are numerous "My boyfriends.... that allow the wearer to let those around her know she wishes to express some masculinity. There is no counterpart for men. I do agree with your last comment and that is, in fact, the Title of this thread! So we agree on atleast half of this topic.
As far as this Lament never stopping, there are also Laments from GG's that never stop either, such as "If men had to go through childbirth there would be any babies born...

As someone posted here in another thread, there are only two types of clothing:

1. Women's

and

2. Unisex

Notice there is no men's clothing. That is the reason that it is impossible for women to crossdress. On the other hand, if a man wears women's clothing, he is considered to be a crossdresser.

Does this make sense to everyone or do I have it wrong? Thoughts?

[Courtneigh]

So true...sadly ! But still true. Why dress codes should determine our inner being as per society...

[ReineD]

Where can we find men's clothing that looks feminine?

There's the flaw in your argument. You want to look feminine, while women who wear jeans do not look masculine. If you want to compare apples to apples, this looks as feminine on men, as women's pant suits and women's jeans look masculine on women:

http://www.backpacker.com/media/originals/26460-kilt_1.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JnkxTFZaeWE/S969YYSvz-I/AAAAAAAAEYw/07Ka9AAU7qk/s1600/kilts3.jpg
http://www.kiltsbybuck.com/Mike1.png
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/221/472724263_245e452547.jpg

Granted, the above styles are not widely adopted by men in our society, but I can guarantee you that when a man walks around wearing an obviously male garment that is not pants (just like women who wear obviously female garments that are not skirts), he will not be seen as gay or effeminate, or any other way that a Cder is generally perceived when he is dressed if he is read, just like women who wear jeans are not seen as masculine by anyone who is not a CDer. :p

Isn't the whole point of the argument that men who look feminine are not accepted? Well, you CAN wear a skirt and not look feminine provided you don't shave your legs and you wear male shoes and tops, if you just want to wear skirts, in exactly the same way that women wear pants but have enough other female gender cues to not look masculine.

But I guarantee you, that the above looks would not satisfy CDers in this forum. So again, apples to oranges.


Edit
My point with all of this is, if you and others want to look feminine, please go ahead and do this. You have a right to express who you feel you are. But, please stop trying to switch the tables and compare yourselves to women who do not attempt to look masculine. If CDers feel that women look masculine unless they dress in styles that are 50 years old, then I'm suggesting it is the CDers whose views are skewed, and not the rest of society, and you need to work on catching up. You are cross-dressers who cross the gender lines in terms of overall appearance (not just a skirt), so you should just own it!

[Eryn]

To quote Dr. Phil McGraw...

Considering his terrible attitude toward crossdessers quoting this entertainer doesn't have any credibility here.

Still, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[Wildaboutheels]

It's really easy to NOT accept the truth when one refuses to pull their head from the sand.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see".

While "society" might be an awfully convenient excuse for not wearing WHATEVER CLOTHING you want to wear, the person you see in the mirror is in fact, the ONLY reason one cannot wear anything they want. [at least when they are not at work]

[Kate T]

Edit
My point with all of this is, if you and others want to look feminine, please go ahead and do this. You have a right to express who you feel you are. But, please stop trying to switch the tables and compare yourselves to women who do not attempt to look masculine. If CDers feel that women look masculine unless they dress in styles that are 50 years old, then I'm suggesting it is the CDers whose views are skewed, and not the rest of society, and you need to work on catching up. You are cross-dressers who cross the gender lines in terms of overall appearance (not just a skirt), so you should just own it!

Agreed. Grow up, take a good hard look in the mirror, and own it. Take responsibility for your own actions and stop trying to justify them by pointing and saying "but they do it why can't I". That is a childs argument.

[Jamie001]

Please see the following article regarding men's wear for women:

http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/27/runway-looks-what-to-wear-forbes-woman-style-fashion-brands.html

Here is an article that describes how to integrate men's clothing for a "Tomboy Look".

http://www.refinery29.com/mens-fashion-for-women

Why don't we see articles in men's magazines that describe how to integrate items from women's fashion to obtain a "JaneGirl Look"? I can find dozens of articles in women's magazines that describe how women can integrate men's clothing, but I can't even find one article in a men's magazine about how a man can integrate women's clothing.

[Jamie Ann]

In my corner of the world, when women dresses in a menswear suit and full makeup or throws on her boyfriend's shirt over jeeans and skips the makeup she is readily accepted and even complemented on her choices. Later that night she can put on an LBD and heels and get a similar response. When she gets home she can change into women's panties that are dead ringers for a guys tighty whities and all is good with the world.
As a hetero crossdresser I have no interest in changing gender or living 24/7 all I want is the ability to express my feminine side in dress in NE USA without being looked down upon as wmoen in my region can currently do.

Crossdressing, by any reasonable definition, means wearing clothing that in the wearer’s culture is widely believed to be associated with the other sex. Nothing more; nothing less. When some women (on this forum and elsewhere) insist that they are not crossdressing when they wear clothing that in their culture is widely believed to be associated with men, they are ignoring or misinterpreting this straightforward definition of crossdressing. They ARE crossdressing! I don’t mean that as a criticism; it is simply a fact according to the evidence and the conventional definition.

What they are trying to say is that they are not transgender — they are not “trying to be men.” What that ignores (even though I believe most of them) is that most MtF crossdressers are not “trying to be women.” Transsexual women who are MtF ARE women — they’re not merely trying to be women — they ARE women, legally and otherwise. Their birth certificates and passports list their sex as “female.” Part-time crossdressers are not “trying to be women.” We are trying to enjoy some feminine feelings, but we accept our male selves, too.

I think it’s unfair that female crossdressers are more widely accepted than male crossdressers; however, let me add that about 70% of American women (according to research results presented at the recent SCC) believe that crossdressers should be accepted in society. About 49% of American men believe that. We are not as accepted as we would like to be, but we simply have to keep at it and win over larger and larger percentages of adult society. It is unfair that women crossdressers are more accepted than men crossdressers, but let’s keep our eyes on the positive, which is that we are making progress!

[ReineD]

When some women (on this forum and elsewhere) insist that they are not crossdressing when they wear clothing that in their culture is widely believed to be associated with men, they are ignoring or misinterpreting this straightforward definition of crossdressing. They ARE crossdressing!

Um, no. Your "wide" belief is held by crossdressers only. Really. If I should ask any of the people that I know whether I (and millions of other women like myself) am crossdressed when I wear my black cords, 3 inch suede ankle boots, and my light blue linen shirt (which is beautifully tailored, BTW, from Pure (http://www.purecollection.com/.Laundered-Linen-Shirt_LW-177.htm)), they would laugh. Even my SO shakes her head in amazement at the assertion that I am crossdressed when I don't show my legs. lol

Edit - It's a matter of logic. In any given culture, if a style is widely, and I mean UNIVERSALLY worn by women, it has become unmistakably associated with women. So how can the wearing of this style cross any gender presentation barriers to the point of being considered crossdressing?

[Tara D. Rose]

Considering his terrible attitude toward crossdessers quoting this entertainer doesn't have any credibility here.

Still, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Eryn, Dr. Phil is not an entertainer. Dr. Phil McGraw graduated in 1975 from Midwestern State University with a Bachelor of Arts in psychology. He went on to earn a Master of Arts in experimental psychology in 1976, and a Doctor of Philosophy in clinical psychology in 1979 at the University of North Texas. So he got his start on television by being a professional psychologist that Oprah depended upon so many times. After taking a liking to him, Oprah got him his own show.

And now his millions roll in. But he is highly educated in his field. I don't know his stand on cross dressers. But he is right about when a family member gets so into your life and tries to break you down in every way. And when a family member brings you such grief and pain with constant criticizing of who you are, and they are never happy with anything that you do or say, one must distant themselves from that family member, at least for a while. It's not just Psychiatrist that say this, but family counselors, pastors, will give the same advice. Just because someone is kin to you, does not mean we are obligated to allow them to put us down every time we talk to them.

Of the loving people that are kin to us, doesn't give them a free ticket to ride our backs with constant bigotry, criticism, filled with ill thought shame to bring us down, and hurt us. If that's the way some of our kinfolks feel, then we are under no obligation to allow those family member's to be in our lives if all they offer to us is pain and criticism.

If I never knew who Dr. Phil was, I would be of the same opinion. But he is not an entertainer; he is and was a professional long before we joined this site.
Yes I do know this may be getting off topic, but someone needs to speak the truth.

[Sarasometimes]

There's the flaw in your argument. You want to look feminine, while women who wear jeans do not look masculine. If you want to compare apples to apples, this looks as feminine on men, as women's pant suits and women's jeans look masculine on women:

http://www.backpacker.com/media/originals/26460-kilt_1.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JnkxTFZaeWE/S969YYSvz-I/AAAAAAAAEYw/07Ka9AAU7qk/s1600/kilts3.jpg
http://www.kiltsbybuck.com/Mike1.png
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/221/472724263_245e452547.jpg

Granted, the above styles are not widely adopted by men in our society, but I can guarantee you that when a man walks around wearing an obviously male garment that is not pants (just like women who wear obviously female garments that are not skirts), he will not be seen as gay or effeminate, or any other way that a Cder is generally perceived when he is dressed if he is read, just like women who wear jeans are not seen as masculine by anyone who is not a CDer. :p

Isn't the whole point of the argument that men who look feminine are not accepted? Well, you CAN wear a skirt and not look feminine provided you don't shave your legs and you wear male shoes and tops, if you just want to wear skirts, in exactly the same way that women wear pants but have enough other female gender cues to not look masculine.

But I guarantee you, that the above looks would not satisfy CDers in this forum. So again, apples to oranges.


Edit
My point with all of this is, if you and others want to look feminine, please go ahead and do this. You have a right to express who you feel you are. But, please stop trying to switch the tables and compare yourselves to women who do not attempt to look masculine. If CDers feel that women look masculine unless they dress in styles that are 50 years old, then I'm suggesting it is the CDers whose views are skewed, and not the rest of society, and you need to work on catching up. You are cross-dressers who cross the gender lines in terms of overall appearance (not just a skirt), so you should just own it!

I find your statement "he will not be seen as gay or effeminate" very interesting and i agree with this in its context but lets look at this further. Why is a male who does express femininity ever thoguht to be gay? One is gender e xpression and the other is sexual preference. So far as wearing a kilt being the solution, this, by your own words isn't feminine and if i want to convey a femnine air/feel to my appearance i will be viewed as affeminate/gay and a women doing the same will not.


I disagree with your last paragraph. Just to be sure I understand your view:. It sonds to me that you believe that when a women buys a pair of winged-tipped women's flats she is trying to convey a feminine look. When she wears a boyfriends shirt in women's she is trying to convey a feminine look. How can that be? As my OP states Women don't Crossdress because they are free to express those masculine feeling and the desire to be a bit masculine. If this weren't true there would be the same opportunities for males and there simply aren't! As one of my other post asked, what store can I shop in that sells a men's equivalent to My Girlfriend's Cardigan, jeans, shirt? Answer I can't. CDing is in large part a gender EXPRESSION related activity,/need not a gender identitiy need.

I think you need to admit that it is acceptable for women to express thier masculine feelings and it isn't acceptable for men to express feminine feelings. My argument in a nutshell. A female who is in the middle of the gender contiuum can just let people know that is who she is. While a male found there is, as best misunderstood.
Also, when I was much younger (around early 1970's) my sister would buy many of her clothes, tops and jeans in the men's department because she was tall. No one questioned this.


Reined, thanks for participating, maybe you may change your view.

[Jamie001]

As my OP states Women don't Crossdress because they are free to express those masculine feeling and the desire to be a bit masculine. If this weren't true there would be the same opportunities for males and there simply aren't! As one of my other post asked, what store can I shop in that sells a men's equivalent to My Girlfriend's Cardigan, jeans, shirt? Answer I can't. CDing is in large part a gender EXPRESSION related activity.

I think you need to admit that it is acceptable for women to express thier masculine feelings and it isn't acceptable for men to express feminine feelings. My argument in a nutshell. A female who is in the middle of the gender contiuum can just let people know that is who she is. While a male found there is, as best misunderstood.
Reined, thanks for participating, maybe you may change your view.

You are correct that girls/women are encouraged to express their masculine side and this fact is widely confirmed and acknowledged in the psychological community that specializes in gender identity. Just do some googling and you will find this to be true. Also note that there is no such thing as the male equivalent of a TomBoy, because society doesn't want feminine males!! It is really that simply. Women simply have a lot more latitude regarding gender expression. This fact can be verified by doing some simple research. When a male equivalent of the TomBoy is accepted by society, we will know that we have achieved equality.

[Sara Jessica]

You are correct that girls/women are encouraged to express their masculine side and this fact is widely confirmed and acknowledged in the psychological community that specializes in gender identity. Just do some googling and you will find this to be true.

Of course, because we all know that to find truth, all you need is Google.


Also note that there is no such thing as the male equivalent of a TomBoy, because society doesn't want or feminine males!! It is really that simply. Women simply have a lot more latitude regarding gender expression. This fact can be verified by doing some simple research. When a male equivalent of the TomBoy is accepted by society, we will know that we have achieved equality.

Sure there is a male equivalent, it's just that the names for it aren't very nice.


I can't believe the life this thread has taken on. Is it that hard to understand that generally speaking, women do not crossdress???

[Jamie001]

I can't believe the life this thread has taken on. Is it that hard to understand that generally speaking, women do not crossdress???

Women do crossdress. It is just so accepted by society that most folks don't even notice.

[DonniDarkness]

As one of my other post asked, what store can I shop in that sells a men's equivalent to My Girlfriend's Cardigan, jeans, shirt? Answer I can't.

Ummm, Do you even shop for guys clothes?.....I own MENS skinny jeans, MENS Cardis in Femmed cuts......Ever seen a Deep V Tshirt?......Hell i even own a pair of Black on Black Chuck Taylors that look ridiculously similar to a pair of Keds. I have shirts with frilly cuffs of the ends of the sleeves that are made for MEN

Dillards
Kohls
Ross
Burlington Coat Factory
MENS WAREHOUSE


Your view is jaded by your own internal dialog. You are arguing about things already freely available to you in fashion. Yet your using excuses as to why you cant wear what you want to. Fear is ruling your LIFE


I think you need to admit that it is acceptable for women to express thier masculine feelings and it isn't acceptable for men to express feminine feelings. My argument in a nutshell..... is Incredibly jaded and filled with angry self doubt

You forgot to finish that sentence......


As my OP states Women don't Crossdress because they are free to express those masculine feeling and the desire to be a bit masculine.

My wife just walked out the door wearing a belt with Bullet shells all the way around it.....why she likes it? she says "Because it makes me feel tough".....You want to know why she is free to express those feelings on fashion?.......Because she doesnt give a crap about what people think about it. True Story...


Why is a male who does express femininity ever thoguht to be gay?

Because gay men have way more courage about coming out than Crossdressers do. Its the context of this statement that i have a problem with, the way you use it shows you have a serious complex about being thought of as Gay....Whats so wrong with other people assuming something untrue....like your saying being thought of as Gay has some sort of shame provided along with it.

I wear girl jeans everyday...tank top.....girly tattoos....long hair...thin eyebrows.....Let them think what they want.....Of couse they may be pleasantly surprised to see me kiss my gorgeous wife....or dissapointed if they made incorrect assumptions about my attire.


my sister would buy many of her clothes, tops and jeans in the men's department because she was tall. No one questioned this.


I shop wherever i want too. You should take notes from your sister

I dont understand the incessant need for CD's to blame the women in the world for their own lack of courage or conviction. Threads like this just Blame Others for why they personally cant get over their own fears.

Wake up Sara,

-Donni-

[Sarasometimes]

Ummm, Do you even shop for guys clothes?.....I own MENS skinny jeans, MENS Cardis in Femmed cuts......Ever seen a Deep V Tshirt?......Hell i even own a pair of Black on Black Chuck Taylors that look ridiculously similar to a pair of Keds. I have shirts with frilly cuffs of the ends of the sleeves that are made for MEN

Dillards
Kohls
Ross
Burlington Coat Factory
MENS WAREHOUSE


Your view is jaded by your own internal dialog. You are arguing about things already freely available to you in fashion. Yet your using excuses as to why you cant wear what you want to. Fear is ruling your LIFE



You forgot to finish that sentence......



My wife just walked out the door wearing a belt with Bullet shells all the way around it.....why she likes it? she says "Because it makes me feel tough".....You want to know why she is free to express those feelings on fashion?.......Because she doesnt give a crap about what people think about it. True Story...



Because gay men have way more courage about coming out than Crossdressers do. Its the context of this statement that i have a problem with, the way you use it shows you have a serious complex about being thought of as Gay....Whats so wrong with other people assuming something untrue....like your saying being thought of as Gay has some sort of shame provided along with it.

I wear girl jeans everyday...tank top.....girly tattoos....long hair...thin eyebrows.....Let them think what they want.....Of couse they may be pleasantly surprised to see me kiss my gorgeous wife....or dissapointed if they made incorrect assumptions about my attire.



I shop wherever i want too. You should take notes from your sister

I dont understand the incessant need for CD's to blame the women in the world for their own lack of courage or conviction. Threads like this just Blame Others for why they personally cant get over their own fears.

Wake up Sara,

-Donni-
I find your post to be offensive and rude, usually a sign of a lack of education/upbringing, but I'll respond anyway.

First off your Wife does care very much about what other people think. You admit that in your story. "Because it makes me feel tough" how? By looking tough to others. Hence she cares what others think.

If you read my posts and comprehended them (means understood them) I'm not blaming anyone. None of my posts mentioned blame or pointed out fault. I'm simply sharing my view about the current culture I live in. In your avatar you appear, a generation or two younger than I, so our culture's view toward you is different. You probably don't have a grasp of that but it does.

You quoted my comment about being thought of as gay. This is a misunderstanding of who I am and what i wish to convey, which doesn't please me. Few people wish to be misunderstood. That is why I mentioned it. You seem to think you have it all figured out but I have my doubts. Are you familiar with Maslow's Hierachy of Needs concept, if not look it up. Also for a person who has me all figured out as someone without courage or conviction without ever meeting me, should be smart enough not to smoke cigarettes.

Also smarty pants, you are is shortened by you're not your. Examples; You're shortening your life by smoking cigarettes. Maybe now that you have me all figured out you can take a grammar class.

[DonniDarkness]

I havnt responded to your thread since youve "donned us with your experience in being a cynical asshat" because at the end of the day.... youve got 20+ years on me and you still havnt figured out how to own your life....Your just arguing to be right, and blaming other people for disagreeing with your convoluted perspective on why women dont crossdress.

So because im calling you out on being rude to the others around you, you feel so inclined to insult my intelligence and upbringing. Hold on a second, my disillusioned friend......from my perspective youve wasted your whole life in the closet.....all because "Times were different then"... Sounds like a damn excuse to me. There were courageous crossdressers from Your ERA, who have been out for many many years. Its your upbringing that should be coming into question....because it has facilitated your grip on fear for your entire life.......

I realize that your arguing to argue but how does me smoking cigarettes have anything to do with my courage and conviction about who i am as a crossdresser.
Sure its a poor choice, it shortens my life, but has nothing to do with how educated or uneducated you may think i am. Its a choice, and its mine to make. Futhermore its not a cigarette, its a cigar in my profile pic, but i shouldnt have to tell you that since your so damn educated.

No matter how well you articulate yourself through words it will never hide the insecurities you have within yourself. We see it. Im calling you out on it. Deal with it.

Grammar class...really? Go choke on your own sense of self importance......Sit around and stew on it for a bit.....when you have something worthwhile and meaningful to say, the younger generation may take a call from the senior center......

Spell that,
-Donni-

[ReineD]

Why is a male who does express femininity ever thoguht to be gay? One is gender e xpression and the other is sexual preference. So far as wearing a kilt being the solution, this, by your own words isn't feminine and if i want to convey a femnine air/feel to my appearance i will be viewed as affeminate/gay and a women doing the same will not.

Obviously I don't look at it this way since I know better through my involvement with my SO and in this forum. I'm saying that most people who know nothing about the motives for cross-gender expression still do conflate gender with sexuality. Unfortunately, it is still very much a common belief out there that men who want to be pretty with delicate clothes, makeup, forms, etc (which is a lot more than wearing a utility kilt as in my links), do so because they want to attract other men, since men are indeed attracted by these things.



It sonds to me that you believe that when a women buys a pair of winged-tipped women's flats she is trying to convey a feminine look. When she wears a boyfriends shirt in women's she is trying to convey a feminine look. How can that be?

Because she is wearing what is currently considered fashionable for women, and she is not trying to manipulate her other gender cues (hair style, binding breasts, thickening her eyebrows, making it look as if she has facial hair growth), in order to pass herself off as a man.




I think you need to admit that it is acceptable for women to express thier masculine feelings and it isn't acceptable for men to express feminine feelings.

Any woman's feelings, (unless he is F2M), are feminine whether she is logical, competitive, aggressive, or whatever. There is not a division of human qualities into strictly male and female camps. Likewise, a man who is nurturing, compassionate, etc, is still masculine.

I do agree that women have more flexibility in their wardrobes, all within the realm of clothes that are accepted in our current time and culture for women. Men can do the same too if they want, by wearing the male utility kilts or by going for zanier shirt colors, or choosing soft angora sweaters or silky briefs if they like soft fabrics, all within the realm of what is considered in our current time and culture, appropriate clothes for men.

Actually, the younger generation has adopted this quite well. Go on any campus and you will see males and females dress in much the same way, with jeans, Tshirts, vests, similar looking sneakers, etc. These are not "male" clothes, they are "universal" clothes. They narrowed the gender gap in their clothing styles so they do wear clothing that I consider to be androgynous, since they are worn with equal freedom by both men and women. :) It is not the clothes that define their genders so much, as the way they present themselves, which is naturally: neither gender attempts to alter their body shapes and facial features in order to pass themselves off to look like members of the opposite sex.

[Jamie001]

I do agree that women have more flexibility in their wardrobes, all within the realm of clothes that are accepted in our current time and culture for women. Men can do the same too if they want, by wearing the male utility kilts or by going for zanier shirt colors, or choosing soft angora sweaters or silky briefs if they like soft fabrics, all within the realm of what is considered in our current time and culture, appropriate clothes for men.


Reine,
Male Utility Kilts are not a good example since they are designed to be worn by males. Your example has a man wearing rather edgy male fashion. Why not use the example of a man wearing a skirt that was purchased in the women's department just like many women purchase jeans in the men's department? If men wearing women's clothing and expressing feminine attributes were accepted by society, then a non-derogatory term would exist for men that are the opposite of a TomBoy. As you know, a non-derogatory term for feminine men does not exist. This is enough evidence that a double-standard exists regarding crossdressing and feminine expression by males.

[ReineD]

Reine,
Male Utility Kilts are not a good example since they are designed to be worn by males.

EXACTLY!!! :D :D :D

Just like the jeans and pant suits, shirts, etc, that women wear are designed to be worn by women! I do not know any woman who buys her stuff from men's stores. Not my friends, not my neighbors, not the women I see at the mall buying things in the women's departments ...

How many women in these random pics do you think are wearing clothing purchased in men's stores? Honestly.

http://liberalthought.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/crowds.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_op1SwnxZbbM/TN7zguQFtSI/AAAAAAAAFe4/ZHFOtWbSFAE/s1600/CrowdCheering.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Wtzxuqjk_vw/Tb4kufZNOcI/AAAAAAAAE50/ktPhkA2oPmE/s1600/women%2527s+conf.jpg
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icwales2/jun2011/9/8/the-crowds-turn-out-for-ladies-day-at-ffos-las-518638102.jpg
http://www.amritapuri.org/images/2001/01/crowds-women.jpg
http://image1.masterfile.com/em_w/01/55/98/614-01559895w.jpg

[Sarasometimes]

EXACTLY!!! :D :D :D

Just like the jeans and pant suits, shirts, etc, that women wear are designed to be worn by women! I do not know any woman who buys her stuff from men's stores. Not my friends, not my neighbors, not the women I see at the mall buying things in the women's departments ...

How many women in these random pics do you think are wearing clothing purchased in men's stores? Honestly.

http://liberalthought.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/crowds.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_op1SwnxZbbM/TN7zguQFtSI/AAAAAAAAFe4/ZHFOtWbSFAE/s1600/CrowdCheering.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Wtzxuqjk_vw/Tb4kufZNOcI/AAAAAAAAE50/ktPhkA2oPmE/s1600/women%2527s+conf.jpg
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icwales2/jun2011/9/8/the-crowds-turn-out-for-ladies-day-at-ffos-las-518638102.jpg
http://www.amritapuri.org/images/2001/01/crowds-women.jpg
http://image1.masterfile.com/em_w/01/55/98/614-01559895w.jpg

Reined, I think we may actually agree in large part.

You agree that women don't crossdress, which is in my title, correct?

You agree that women can find in their own stores fashionable and accepted clothes and shoes with a typically masculine feature to them (ie. wing tips), Right?

I think the sticking point my be the freedom of expression question. Explain why it is that when a women chooses a women's garment with masculine features or detailing (now mind you she could pick a item that is very feminine in design) she is doing so despite those features? To me this is so clear. I have even asked GG's about this and they have agreed.

As far as those random photos, I would bet there are quite a few. Most athletic tees and sweatshirts are only found in the men's department (like NCAA, NFL...) Sure no one thinks this because it is ok by society. Yes I know that wasn't always the case and that but it is now and that is my simple point.

Males who choose to go out enfemme (I do this) are crossdressing as would be the case if a GG did the opposite. I do it to express my femininity. A GG can use other avenues to express her masculinity (ie those wing-tips, army boots. Neither scream femininity.

I have enjoyed this exchange with you and hopefully others here can see that two intelligent people, of differing views can argue without insulting anyone.

[Nigella]

Why do members insist in arguing in a thread that is not their property, it is disrespectful to both the OP and other members who have contributed.

Thread closed