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DebbieL
11-15-2012, 04:14 PM
For the transgendered and transsexual community, that can be a really tricky question.

Kinsey suggested that there was a ranking from 1 through 6, 1 being someone who was only attracted to members of the opposite sex and never even had fantasies about having sexual intimacy of any kind with anyone of the same sex, and 6 being someone who was totally homosexual and never had desires to have any type of sexual intimacy with a member of the opposite sex. Furthermore, the distribution seems to be more of an inverse bell curve, with many people being mostly or entirely heterosexual and a smaller but significant number being mostly or entirely homosexual. However, because Kinsey and his team took detailed sexual histories including both fantasies and practices, as well as repressed fantasies, they found that many who practiced lifestyles that were almost entirely heterosexual or homosexual also felt pressure to be one or the other. Many of those who were bisexual to any significant degree (2-5 on Kinsey's scale) often felt that they had to be monogamous and therefore had to choose one or the other.

Kinsey's research also showed that many bisexuals met different needs with each gender. For example, bisexual women might behave heterosexually, but would enjoy social and sensual intimacy with a woman, even though it didn't lead to sex. Conversely, men might find physical intimacy in the form of certain sports such as wrestling or they might find social intimacy with men, but would enjoy only be sexually involved with women.

Other studies have looked at the types of men and women that the subject was attracted to. For example, some "heterosexual" men were attracted to masculine women such as Kathrine Hepburn, while some women were more attracted to very feminine men. Conversely, some men, when given images of only very heavy set women and very buff handsome men, would be more attracted to the men than the women. They might even be a 1 on Kinsey's scale, but might go for a drag queen, a chippendale's boy, or a feminine boy more than they would go for Rosie O'Donnel, Rosanne Barr, or Ethel Merman..

When you add the complication of gender identity things get even more interesting. For example, some cross-dressers love dressing up and are even aroused when they dress up, but would only be able to perform sexually when dressed as a man or when both partners are completely naked. At the other end of the spectrum would be those who have very little desire for sexual intercourse and may have very little desire to make love while dressed as a man or while fully naked. Their true preference is to make love dressed as a woman, with a partner who will treat them as a woman. They may even prefer toys or masturbation while their male parts are completely covered, and would prefer that their partner was also dressed as a woman and preferred to please her with toys, hands, and mouth rather than trying to use his penis. These would be "male lesbians".

When you start to look at activities, some men might enjoy female domination, including punishment and "pegging" (strap-ons) or other forms of anal penetration. Visually, they are looking at a woman, but they want the woman to act more like a masculine personality. Conversely, many women enjoy being able to be the aggressive masculine partner and "be in charge of it" with a male who is more submissive and feminine. Homosexual relationships can be equally complicated, with femme women who like butch women, and butch men who like femme boys or even transgenders and transsexuals.

When you begin to try to map the sexual preferences and sexual identities of two partners together, the picture gets even more blurry and convoluted. You could have male and female lesbians and male and female homosexuals, or even a heterosexual couple where gender roles are pretty much reversed.

Some of these variations in preference and identity may be a result of delaying sexual relations. A boy or girl who is having sexual fantasies for 6-12 years before finding a sexual partner with whom they can have regular mutually satisfying sex (such as marriage) can explore a wide range of variations and options. For example, I got interested in B&D when I purchased magazines with women in pretty corsets, heels, and stockings. The written articles that matched the pictures were those of female domination, bondage and submission. It got added to other preferences. Sometimes a partner will introduce us to something new and we like it. My first experience of anal penetration was when my wife was trying to freak me out and make me not want sex. It backfired, I found I enjoyed it. There were times when a partner would tie me up and really act psycho - and I was amazed at how turned on I was when I was experiencing real fear and being aroused at the same time.

In many cultures, boys and girls are paired up in their teens, in arranged marriages. There is often an older person who help train the couple. First they are taught to interact with each other socially, to talk to each other, even to fight with each other. Then they are taught how to make love to each other, and are encouraged to explore a wide variety of sexuality and sensuality, they are taught to focus on mutual satisfaction. Most of these arranged and supported marriages last a lifetime and sexual intimacy continues even after sexual intercourse is no longer practical or possible.

In the United States, boys and girls are taught to be ashamed of their sexual desires, they aren't even allowed to talk about them. They get no formal training other than the most basic mechanics and minimal training in birth control and preventing STDs. Many males have their first experiences with prostitutes, who just want to get get the money and get them off as fast as possible so they can move on to the next one. Many women have their first experience under duress, they may be acquaintance raped, sexually molested by an older adult, or pressured, some are even violently raped as their first experience. For other women, especially those whose first experience is with a boy who has only done it with prostitutes - the experience can be very disappointing. He's been "trained" to go off as quickly as possible, which means that she's barely even warmed up and he's done. Often people don't seriously explore their sexuality, sexual preferences and sexual identities mutually - until they go to see a marriage counselor - who often finds that they have each formed very strong sexual identities and sexual preferences that are incompatible with each other. Some couples can take turns pleasing each other, others go to an "Open Marriage" and far too often, the result is divorce. In the United States, 75% of all children born in the United States will not be living with both of their birth parents by the time they graduate from high school.

One of the great tragedies of American Sexuality (and probably European and Middle-eastern sexuality as well), is that there is so much secrecy and shame around even TALKING about sexual preferences, sexual desires, and sexual identities. If we were able to honestly and authentically share our sexual preferences, desires, and identities publicly with 10-20 people, and let them share that information with others, it would be more like "This is what's on the menu and what am I hungry for" rather than "I can't tell her about my dressing because she'll leave me if I do, while she's saying "I can't tell him I think he'd make a cute girl, because he would leave me if I did".

Back in the 1980s, they used to have "The Hankie Code" - which started out in gay bars because getting matched up with compatible partners was so complicated. It moved over to the straight scene for a while, but the problem was that in heterosexual environments, people kept lying about who they were - because they wanted the widest number of options. Wearing a purple hankie (tranvestite or transgender) was as bad a wearing a dress. Jewelry such as slave bracelets and ankle bracelets turned into hot fashion and suddenly kinky guys were picking up girls in ankle bracelets only to find out that she was "Vanilla".

Unfortunately, many of the sites that encourage sexual authenticity - are also populated with many professionals. It gets really strange when you have two professionals trying to negotiate the deal, only to figure out that neither is going to pay and both were only into it for the money.

Gaz
11-15-2012, 04:22 PM
Interesting post Debbie. Have to say, it's something of an eyebrow raiser to wonder if my love of sports is actually masking homosexual tendencies that I'm subconsciously repressing because of perceived social stigma. (That said, I think it's probably a case of me just loving to chase a ball around. I meant a SOCCER ball, STOP GIGGLING!!)


Conversely, some men, when given images of only very heavy set women and very buff handsome men, would be more attracted to the men than the women. They might even be a 1 on Kinsey's scale, but might go for a drag queen, a chippendale's boy, or a feminine boy more than they would go for Rosie O'Donnel, Rosanne Barr, or Ethel Merman.

Please tell me there's a third option!! ;)

Laura912
11-15-2012, 05:54 PM
Third option: cold shower and good bourbon.

Stephanie Miller
11-15-2012, 07:10 PM
Nope. Sorry Debbie. Been at the office since 3:00 A.M. So a post like this either comes with Cliff Notes or I'm a gonner after 5:00

ReineD
11-15-2012, 07:11 PM
Overall, I'm not sure what is your point. Our planet is populated with a wide variety of people who have a wide variety of backgrounds and life circumstances, each of whom are attracted to an equally wide variety of other people, more than can possibly be listed in just one post, whether they are same-sex attracted or not.

If a GM is attracted to women, no matter what female body type he is attracted to, then he is hetero. If he is attracted to men, then he is gay (or bi if he is attracted to both) unless he is TS and falls in the small percentage of TSs who feel they were born in the wrong bodies to the point where living as a man is impossible.

Further, to try to label any GG who presents as a GG "masculine", or any GM who presents as a GM "feminine" without looking at individual cases and simply because their looks or preferences may not conform to your stereotypes is false simply because of the very wide variety of people that exists across all cultures and socio-economic backgrounds. Where's the cutoff line between feminine and masculine and is it the same for everyone?

I especially disagree with this point:



Kinsey's research also showed that many bisexuals met different needs with each gender. For example, bisexual women might behave heterosexually, but would enjoy social and sensual intimacy with a woman, even though it didn't lead to sex. Conversely, men might find physical intimacy in the form of certain sports such as wrestling or they might find social intimacy with men, but would enjoy only be sexually involved with women.

You can't reduce everything to sexual attraction. You're describing natural, close friendship here. I have many close emotional bonds with women that I also hug, and I am not bisexual.

docrobbysherry
11-15-2012, 08:42 PM
Thank u, Reine! I think u covered everything perfectly! U simple SHOULDN'T generalize about things that r this complicated and individualized!

flatlander_48
11-15-2012, 10:23 PM
I think what many people have come to realize is that there are many more shades and variations than they originally thought. It's not a simple proposition to figure it out, but it's not impossible. That said, I do believe that the degree of sexual repression in western societies does us no good. Not dealing with something doesn't make it go away.

Shari
11-16-2012, 07:05 AM
Thanks Debbie, for the detailed post. I'm sure a lot of work went into that.
I think I fully understand human sexuality now
:eek:

Angela Campbell
11-16-2012, 09:23 AM
It boils down to what someone likes. I like ketchup and mayonaise on a hamburger, some like mustard only, some do not even like hamburgers at all. Some days I do not want a hamburger and want a taco instead. Sexual preference is the same. You like what you like and that can change at times.

Jana
11-16-2012, 09:39 AM
I agree with Reine. I'm not sure I got your point. You start the narrative talking about Kinsey, then bisexuality, then sexuality in America, then your own fetichistic experiences, and finish with a cute joke, which albeit funny, felt a bit disconnected. I'm here scratching my head... maybe I'm just not well-read enough to see the light you see.

Beverley Sims
11-16-2012, 09:56 AM
Your post looks interesting, I need a summary sheet so as I can be led to the pointers tho.
I am sending it back to you for revision. :)

Tiffany Grace
11-16-2012, 10:27 AM
great thread

thank you

Nikki_C
11-16-2012, 01:44 PM
Wow... Some really deep thoughts. Gonna have to read it again and digest it a bit.

Tracii G
11-16-2012, 01:53 PM
Kinsey was discounted on a lot of his findings over the years so most publications consider him a quack or a nut bag.
He had a huge following in the 60's.

Jamie Ann
11-16-2012, 05:02 PM
For the transgendered and transsexual community, that can be a really tricky question.

Kinsey suggested that there was a ranking from 1 through 6, 1 being someone who was only attracted to members of the opposite sex and never even had fantasies about having sexual intimacy of any kind with anyone of the same sex, and 6 being someone who was totally homosexual and never had desires to have any type of sexual intimacy with a member of the opposite sex. Furthermore, the distribution seems to be more of an inverse bell curve, with many people being mostly or entirely heterosexual and a smaller but significant number being mostly or entirely homosexual. However, because Kinsey and his team took detailed sexual histories including both fantasies and practices, as well as repressed fantasies, they found that many who practiced lifestyles that were almost entirely heterosexual or homosexual also felt pressure to be one or the other. Many of those who were bisexual to any significant degree (2-5 on Kinsey's scale) often felt that they had to be monogamous and therefore had to choose one or the other.
...

In the United States, boys and girls are taught to be ashamed of their sexual desires, they aren't even allowed to talk about them. They get no formal training other than the most basic mechanics and minimal training in birth control and preventing STDs. Many males have their first experiences with prostitutes, who just want to get get the money and get them off as fast as possible so they can move on to the next one. Many women have their first experience under duress, they may be acquaintance raped, sexually molested by an older adult, or pressured, some are even violently raped as their first experience. For other women, especially those whose first experience is with a boy who has only done it with prostitutes - the experience can be very disappointing. He's been "trained" to go off as quickly as possible, which means that she's barely even warmed up and he's done. Often people don't seriously explore their sexuality, sexual preferences and sexual identities mutually - until they go to see a marriage counselor - who often finds that they have each formed very strong sexual identities and sexual preferences that are incompatible with each other. Some couples can take turns pleasing each other, others go to an "Open Marriage" and far too often, the result is divorce. In the United States, 75% of all children born in the United States will not be living with both of their birth parents by the time they graduate from high school.

One of the great tragedies of American Sexuality (and probably European and Middle-eastern sexuality as well), is that there is so much secrecy and shame around even TALKING about sexual preferences, sexual desires, and sexual identities. If we were able to honestly and authentically share our sexual preferences, desires, and identities publicly with 10-20 people, and let them share that information with others, it would be more like "This is what's on the menu and what am I hungry for" rather than "I can't tell her about my dressing because she'll leave me if I do, while she's saying "I can't tell him I think he'd make a cute girl, because he would leave me if I did".

This is an excellent post. Thanks! One could quibble with little parts of it (such as Kinsey's scheme), but I have no quibble about the essential points you make. Part of the importance of Kinsey's scheme was to challenge the dichotomous conception of sexuality. There is other work that adds additional credence to that challenge.

Cultures and subcultures across the world differ considerably in how they conceptualize gender and sexuality; the ways in which interpretations of the same bodily events differ cross-culturally are great. In some cultures, exclusive homosexuality is viewed as something different from occasional same-sex intimacy. A classic investigation by Ford and Beach (see the reference below) published in 1951 reported evidence that homosexual behavior (as understood in the US) was accepted in 49 of the 76 cultures for which the relevant data were available. In many of them, behavior that most people in the US would consider “homosexual” is understood as something else.

The other two references given below demonstrate that non-heterosexual behavior is quite common in the US, even though most of those who engage in it swear that they are totally heterosexual. Authenticity takes a back seat to ideas most people in the US think are more important than being authentic!

• Clellan S. Ford and Frank A. Beach. Patterns of Sexual Behavior. New York: Harper & Row. 1951.
• Debby Herbenick et al. 2010. “Sexual Behavior in the United States: Results from a National Probability Sample of Men and Women Ages 14-94.” Journal of Sexual Medicine (July Issue).
• J. A. Cerny and Erick Janssen. 2011. “Patterns of Sexual Arousal in Homosexual, Bisexual, and Heterosexual Men.” Archives of Sexual Behavior(March issue).