Are we foreigners in Ladyland?

[Jaymees22]

I feel we want to appear as women but don't really know their language. It's like moving to a new country, you can learn the language but you will always have an accent, they will ask where are you from. I believe people who have had to move to a different country as adults will still think and dream in their original language. So I think I still think as a man even though I strive to look like a woman. Some threads here seem to bear this out, such as solving an appearance issue usually has a male type solution (ie:fishing line to hide pierced ears, using tape in unusual ways etc.) Any thoughts? Jaymee

[RADER]

You have a good point their, I guess that since we where born as a man, we might always think
like a man. Some here have transition to being a women, either in just dress, or in physical
appearance by surgery. But I wonder if that is enough to change the way the mind works.
Many say they are born into the wrong body, I totally respect their beliefs.
Does anyone really know what the other sex feels like inside their mind. That is the $ 64,000.00
Question. Maybe we have some hidden talent, we can think like a man, and a woman both at
the same time. I would like to think so, even if it is only for short periods of time.
Rader

[Kaz]

Yeah... a really good point! I think like I think I guess. I do know that I think differently from most men I have come across in the workplace, although in my musician world I have loads in common with everyone I meet! Have always had more girl friends than male friends though and prefer female company... but do I think like a female? I guess not! :) I wish!

[suzy1]

It’s the old question, how do we know how a female thinks if we are not a female.
But what if we are transgender. What if something in our minds or in our make up is female? Then we think as a female. Or do we?

On the other hand does it really matter?
Personally I don’t think it’s important as I am me and I am happy with that.
So do we bang our heads against the wall worrying about it or just get on with it and be happy.

Me? Im happy with being Suzy. It feels so right!

[Persephone]

Complex question, Jaymee!

Perhaps you have to begin with some other, earlier, questions. Do all men think alike? Do all women? Or is the appearance of a huge chasm between the two sexes really artificial?

Although there appear to be statistical differences in both brain hardware and software we really aren't PC vs. Apple with two distinctly different chipsets and operating systems, instead, each human being has a unique chipset and a unique operating system and, frankly, it is amazing that we can load common software at all.

There are not really two completely separated statistical curves, one for "man" and one for "woman," but, rather, two overlapping curves.


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/sandylewiscares/OverlappingGaussCurves.gif

So while men trend toward one side women trend toward another, but there is really a great deal of overlap.

And then there is the amazing ability to modify the brain, both hardware and software, through environment.

I used to live almost completely in "guy world" as a closet crossdresser. Over the years I've moved more and more into "girl world." My movements and gestures, the way I walk, stand, and sit, are no longer something I have to think about, they're automatic.

When I'm out in public I no longer nod to men but automatically smile when I make eye contact with other women. I don't have to think about it.

But more importantly, I seem to get along with my GG friends as "just one of the girls." One tiny example is that I no longer tell long guy jokes, but I still have my ability to generate humor -- girl humor.

Is falling into place and feeling at home really "thinking like a woman?" I don't completely think so, but I do know that, like Elphaba, the "Wicked Witch" in the musical Wicked, "Who can say if I've been changed for the better? But because I knew you I have been changed for good." (Click here for complete lyrics) (http://www.metrolyrics.com/for-good-lyrics-wicked.html).

Hugs,
Persephone.

[sometimes_miss]

Again, comes the question of what is it to 'think like a woman'. Rather than go through the whole thing all over again, I'll simply point you all to books by Barbara and Allan Pease, which will give you a beginner's look, and if you want to know more, go to the references in the back of the books and read further. Men and women DO think, interpret, and react to the world differently. It's not simply based on thinking about certain male or female related subjects. Here you go:
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Listen-Women-Cant-Read/dp/0767907639/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353099857&sr=1-3&keywords=pease

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Women-Always-Shoes/dp/0767916107/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353099857&sr=1-4&keywords=pease

http://www.amazon.com/Why-Want-Women-Need-Love/dp/030759159X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353099857&sr=1-2&keywords=pease

[Kate Simmons]

The language of women is one of caring, sharing and love. Once you master those traits, you are a step closer to being there. Of course women also have wonderful intrinsic abilities we can't even begin to copy. That's why they are women.;):battingeyelashes::)

[Jorja]

If you are just dressing one day every now and then, you don't stand a snowballs chance of coming close to knowing the language. If you live it 24/7 you can be so close to perfect it can be really hard to tell. Like anything else, it takes practice, practice, practice and more practice.

[suchacutie]

This is where a GG friend/SO can be invaluable. Boys and girls grow up in different worlds, some of which is genetic and some of which is environmental. Some of the differences are obvious, such as clothing and makeup (and all the language associated with them). Others are much more subtle such as the use of language and the process by which issues are solved.

Reading about these differences is a good start, and talking about them with a GG is the ultimate! BTW, it's my opinion that our understanding of being a woman "organizationally" is a tremendous advantage in an interpersonal relationship with a GG. Just take a look at the books generally entitled "Porn for Women" (and no, there is no male-type porn in them!). These books talk about men understanding what endears women to each other, and they act accordingly. Since this is what we want to do, it is to our great advantage to learn all we can and then incorporate that knowledge into our lives.

[brenne]

I feel we want to appear as women but don't really know their language. It's like moving to a new country, you can learn the language but you will always have an accent, they will ask where are you from. I believe people who have had to move to a different country as adults will still think and dream in their original language. So I think I still think as a man even though I strive to look like a woman. Some threads here seem to bear this out, such as solving an appearance issue usually has a male type solution (ie:fishing line to hide pierced ears, using tape in unusual ways etc.) Any thoughts? Jaymee

It is nice when you have natives help with the lingo

[Georgina]

Being a foreigner ain't so bad when you aren't a permanent resident.

[Silmaril]

What an interesting idea! "Foreigners in Lady Land." I think, for myself, that in many ways I've largely been a foreigner in Gentleman Land for most of my life. There are numerous ways I have always stood apart from the average guy; I'd say in many ways I actually blend in vastly better in Lady Land. The key limiting factor that keeps me from acquiring citizenship is the visual component: not just the physical, but the mannerisms. No matter how well I blend mentally, conversationally, emotionally, and all those other cerebral things (even speech sometimes!), my physical appearance and male-dominated mannerisms leave me constantly vulnerable to the Lady-Land Department Immigration. Thank God they haven't yet figured out how to build a wall to keep me out...

[Angela Campbell]

Well I was never really accepted in the man club either. Growing up I was too small, too weak, and mostly called a sissy.

[Kate Simmons]

Well I was never really accepted in the man club either. Growing up I was too small, too weak, and mostly called a sissy.Pretty much Hon. They took away my "man card" a long time ago. Now I'm just a person. Go figure!:heehee::)

[kimdl93]

I'd avoid the presumption that there is male think and female think. Its true, a cat may never think like a dog, but We're the same species, so differences in thought between male and females are part of the mental wiring and part experience. Those of us who are transgendered, and I use that term as an umbrella that covers most members here, are probably wired a little differently than a stereotypical male. In other words, our brains, out thoughts, are more like those of a woman, with some variation amongst us for certain.

So, I basically reject the notion that I can't think like a woman. The fact is, To some extent, i can't not think like a woman.

[suzy1]

I'd avoid the presumption that there is male think and female think. Its true, a cat may never think like a dog, but We're the same species, so differences in thought between male and females are part of the mental wiring and part experience. Those of us who are transgendered, and I use that term as an umbrella that covers most members here, are probably wired a little differently than a stereotypical male. In other words, our brains, out thoughts, are more like those of a woman, with some variation amongst us for certain.

So, I basically reject the notion that I can't think like a woman. The fact is, To some extent, i can't not think like a woman.



Thank you Kim. I think that is a very good argument. I personally think you are right. [Great minds think alike?]:)

I have always believed this to be true. Proving it however is a different thing, not that it matters to me.

[Sheren Kelly]

In an earlier thread, someone brought up the concept of native vs. naturalized citizenship in the world of women. Having been raised in the male world, we can never expect to be a native, however if we work at it, perhaps we can be accepted as naturalized ladys. if we are not dedicated to living full time, perhaps we can at least get a tourist visa.

[Beverley Sims]

I think you have a valid point here, and you could be right. :)

[Foxglove]

Having grown up male, my thought is completely masculine. This morning, e.g., I put on my panties, tights, bra, top, skirt, little suede boots, coat and hat. Then I grabbed my purse and headed for the supermarket--and felt perfectly natural doing it.

Being trans, I think I think trans. How does a man think? How does a woman think? Which man are we talking about? Which woman?

I think I've always thought like Annabelle. It's just that these days I'm giving her the freedom to act on her thought. Does this make me a woman? I don't think so, but how would I know? I've always been me, always had my own way of thinking (and I've met few people in this world who could take it for long). I'm going with it these days. My thought hasn't changed. I'm just acting on it, that's all.

[Jaymees22]

Hi Thanks for your replies, some were so in depth. It gives me something to think about. Some people said they feel like they are in a small area between men and women, I think thats how I feel right now, in our own unique spot in the world. I know I'm feeling the best I've ever felt and thats a good thing I hope it lasts!! Hugs Jaymee

[Karren H]

I remember when we lived in West Virginia..... didn't matter how long you lived there.... you were always considered a foreigner....

[BillieJoEllen]

I have had to fight female thoughts and attitudes ever since I was a young child. They came naturally to me. My father wanted a 'macho' boy and I had to struggle hard to project that image to him. He never would have accepted a TS as a child of his. So today a lot of my thoughts and attitudes have been buried deeply unless I willingly let them out of the closet. I wish I had just one person I could talk to about all this. My wife doesn't understand either and desparately wants me 'cured'.

[Angela Campbell]

In my case I naturally swing more to the female side of things, At least as far as I can remember. However due to the constraints of the male dominated society in school and young adulthood, I was forced to comply with the common definition of a male. I have experiences that shifted me more towards the male side due to conditioning but my female side is always there in the background. I usually feel like an imposter, or maybe an actor playing a role when in male mode. I was taught how a male should behave and the results of not doing so can be severe, so I ;learned well how to hide my femininity. It was difficult in childhood and my teen years to do so. All the boys wanted to play sports, liked talking about cars, did boy things, and I was interested in playing with dolls, sewing, cooking, art, the more pleasant things. I was smaller and weaker then the boys and was often ridiculed because I just didn't have the strength or stamina they had. So I guess now I am a little of both sides. I would prefer the female side but must at times conform and pretend to be a full man.

I feel like I am cured when I look like and act like a woman. Some birth defects have no cure. What cannot be remedied must be endured.

[Wonderwho]

The real question here is why is it that there needs to be a difference between the two worlds. Ladyland and Mensworld?
Should it be that hard to meet with the "guys" and have a few drinks and talk sports or football, then stop buy the hair salon and talk with the "girls".
I sat with some GG's that I know today and we all talked about the upcoming deer hunting weekend. There are better hunters than their husbands but I have seen all of them dressed to go out and they are allare real women. It is a sorry state that we as CDers have to find a little world to exist in that fits the vacent place between Men and Women.
Have a great Thanksgiving everyone, be thankfull for the freedom to wear what you want almost anytime you want!
My best to all, Wonderwho

[IngeInCO]

The real question here is why is it that there needs to be a difference between the two worlds. Ladyland and Mensworld?
Should it be that hard to meet with the "guys" and have a few drinks and talk sports or football, then stop buy the hair salon and talk with the "girls".
I sat with some GG's that I know today and we all talked about the upcoming deer hunting weekend. There are better hunters than their husbands but I have seen all of them dressed to go out and they are allare real women. It is a sorry state that we as CDers have to find a little world to exist in that fits the vacent place between Men and Women.
Have a great Thanksgiving everyone, be thankfull for the freedom to wear what you want almost anytime you want!
My best to all, Wonderwho

That is a great take on life wonder! I always joke with my wife that I'm then only dude that flips between football, Foodnetwork and What Not To Wear on a lazy Saturday.

[thewife/soon2bex]

As a gg I just wanted to add my perspective. Other then those that they should have been born a women, I don't believe that a man could ever truly know what it is like to be a women. Our genetic makeup is drastically different then a male. Just like, I know as a women I will never be able to feel as a man even if I decided to take the extreme route. Nor would I want to. There is a beauty in the woman as well as their being a strength in a man that neither can replicate. I believe a woman approaches life in a different and unique way just as a man approaches life. I beleive that just as the clothes do not make the man, they also do not make the woman. They also do not make them the opposite sex. I believe that no matter how I try to fool myself that if I put on jeans or mens clothes I can NEVER be a man. The same holds true for the man who puts on an article of womans clothes. Just my thoughts

[suzy1]

As a gg I just wanted to add my perspective. Other then those that they should have been born a women, I don't believe that a man could ever truly know what it is like to be a women. Our genetic makeup is drastically different then a male. Just like, I know as a women I will never be able to feel as a man even if I decided to take the extreme route. Nor would I want to. There is a beauty in the woman as well as their being a strength in a man that neither can replicate. I believe a woman approaches life in a different and unique way just as a man approaches life. I beleive that just as the clothes do not make the man, they also do not make the woman. They also do not make them the opposite sex. I believe that no matter how I try to fool myself that if I put on jeans or mens clothes I can NEVER be a man. The same holds true for the man who puts on an article of womans clothes. Just my thoughts




Your theory is just as good as my theory but who is right? Does it really matter? We will never know until we know how to transplant a female brain into a male body, But hang on, that won’t work will it!
Can’t we just let this go and get on with life. [And lighten up a bit too] I feel feminine. I am happy. Good enough for me.:)

SUZY

[Wonderwho]

Thewife/soontobex
That is the best statement yet. To become a different sex one would have to unlearn the whole learned ideals and process of thinking that that sex had grown up with.If at birth your child was male and then raised as female there would be a better chance that that child would gain the insight that is needed to become the new sex. The same in the other aspect, female raised as male. There is still the full genetic concept that will fall into place, learned and genetic concepts and thought patterns will conflict.
We as a the claimed, higer thinking, creature on this planet should be able to accept the connection between male and female
and also the seperation line that is just where CDers and others exist.
I am the man in a dress who by genitic design or learned behivor will have to exist on the line between two worlds. I will do my best to accept both sides in their whole and still not loose the person that I am inside.
I have cut a hole in wall behind the closet I exist in and am slowly making it bigger.
The best to all,
Wonderwho

[ReineD]

I feel we want to appear as women but don't really know their language.

I think that women are more able than men (on average) to dismiss gender differences especially today, now that we've evolved since the 1950s. :) I think that men in general are more unforgiving of other men whom they perceive are crossing the gender line, than are women. It is a puzzle to me as to why men feel they need to posture so much, at least in the locker rooms.

I may be odd, but I know that I have never looked at men as being "foreigners" even as a teenager. This does not mean that I see them as women, but that I have always believed they were capable of experiencing the full spectrum of human emotion. All my life I've had close male friends who were not trans nor were they gay, with whom I was able to talk about anything except perhaps basic biological functions. But, I don't spend a great deal of time discussing basic biological functions with women either.

If there are differences between patterns of thinking, I do not think these are cut in stone. But, maybe men behave differently with each other than they do when they talk one-on-one with women, with whom they feel they can let their guards down and just be themselves.

I love Persephone's bimodal distribution but I think the overlap is wider than it is shown on the diagram especially among the younger generation. My sons have had close relationships with female friends all their lives, whom they consider friends more than potential sexual partners. On the other hand, there are lots of girls whom they think of strictly as potential sexual relationships. :p

[Foxglove]

I think that men in general are more unforgiving of other men whom they perceive are crossing the gender line, than are women.

Reine, this is a commonplace, but do you have any data/statistics on this? I'd really like to see some.

I'm keeping a count of my own experiences. So far I haven't had a single negative reaction from a man. I haven't had one from a woman, either.

I'd really like some hard data before I judge this question for myself. I've been looking for such data, but haven't been able to find any. Pointers in the right direction would be appreciated.

Annabelle

[Gaby2]

As an Irishman in Germany, I enjoy the contrasts, be they language-based or otherwise.
At times they can be frustrating, of course.
This holds true for CDing as well.

The generation aspect is especially interesting for me, Jaymee.
I hope it is not off-topic.
I find it relatively easy to relate to women my own age (and older), enjoying their company and I mimic them somewhat when dressed.

The younger the women, the less this is true for me as a CDer.
Would I like to wear (or do I like wearing) what younger women wear?
Do I speak their language? Do I want to speak it?
I gotta think a little more about this... but I definitely feel (and want/need to be?) more of a foreigner.

:) Gaby

[ReineD]

Reine, this is a commonplace, but do you have any data/statistics on this? I'd really like to see some.

No, I say this only from personal observation. I think that most members here would agree that they would have rather "died", than do anything during their teenage years that their friends might have thought was "gay".

If you didn't feel this way, good for you!! :)

[Foxglove]

I think that most members here would agree that they would have rather "died", than do anything during their teenage years that their friends might have thought was "gay".


I'm not sure I'd disagree with that, either. But your perceptions of others and what they really are can be two different things. And anyway, it was a long time ago that I was a teenager.

Things are changing now, and whatever about attitudes back then, I'm more interested in attitudes now. If we don't have firm data that support the notion that men are less accepting than women, I think for our own sakes we'd be doing better to jettison the notion, or at least put it on hold. How you perceive someone will influence your behavior. Therefore, it's not to your advantage to misperceive someone.

E.g., I think it's a commonly accepted idea among transpeople that it's easier to come out in big cities rather than small towns/rural areas. But in recent times, talking to people who live in big cities here in Ireland, I was given reason to question that notion. It was one thing that encouraged me to come out in this small town I live in. And so far, the results couldn't possibly have been better.

We can hurt ourselves by assuming things that aren't necessarily true.

[It's occurred to me that I might add an example that's especially to the point. Recently when I decided to come out in my town, I decided on my strategy as to how to go about it. Rather than suddenly appearing in town as "Annabelle", I approached some people beforehand--shopkeepers, office supervisors, etc.--to inform them of my decision and see how they'd react.

In all I approached ten people, and to my huge surprise and gratification found them all completely accepting. What it means is that I now have a "core of supporters", and that's made things a lot easier for me. E.g., if the staff in a shop don't like me, what can they say since the boss is on my side? (In fact, I've subsequently found most of the staff in various places friendly enough.)

But of these ten people I approached, seven were men. Now if I'd gone along with the usual assumption that men are less accepting than women, I might have decided not to approach them, and I'd have been hurting myself a great deal. My "Friends of Annabelle" club would be a lot smaller. But I had no reason to be particularly wary of these guys. They're guys I've known for years, very decent, friendly guys, so why assume they'd be less accepting than the women? I had nothing but this assumption, this prejudice, to make me distrust them. I did well to ignore it.]

Annabelle

[Lady Panda]

Her is another spin on things ....There are GF's like me that are "Tomboys " that think and act like guys and yet are just "girly " enough when we want to be considered women. I have always found it easier to be around Guys because I found that many GGs were so superficial. I was the girl that was one of the guys. as my SO used to say .....(we knew each other in high school) she is one of the guys excpt she has boobs.

I think intrinsically women have a natural intuition that is genetic...some is also the way we are groomed to be perceptive to notice details most men overlook...I think this has something to do w th e hardwiring for rearing children. For example a GG who is a mother will perceive that when it is all quiet in the house when children are playing off on their own will "know " I NEED to go see what kind of trouble the kids are getting into because it is too damn quiet in there and they are up to something...I also know this is a learned skill we get from our mothers.

So...it is nature and nurture.

It is like nay other language or culture the more you live in it the more one grows to understand how it all goes.

[suzy1]

For example a GG who is a mother will perceive that when it is all quiet in the house when children are playing off on their own will "know " I NEED to go see what kind of trouble the kids are getting into because it is too damn quiet in there and they are up to something

I baby sit my sisters two children. A three year old boy and a two year old girl.

I always know instinctively when to jump out of my chair and go see what there up to.
So there you are, I new I had a female side to me.:)

[Lady Panda]

I baby sit my sisters two children. A three year old boy and a two year old girl.

I always know instinctively when to jump out of my chair and go see what there up to.
So there you are, I new I had a female side to me.:)

We all have both sides to us all ..some more than others. Some just choose to ignore it other embrace it ....
Good for you to embrace it!!!!!


One thing that I know there have been studies of the brain...Women (GGSs) have the ability to access both hemispheres of the brain simultaneouly, signals travel the brain bridge that connects the both hemispheres of the brain have the signals that transmit and travel freely between the brain halves....Genteic males typically only access and utelize only one hemisphere at a time and have to conciousely have to change gears ....Thinking on this I have wondered if Gay and CDIng men also have this biological ability that is hard wired in their brains. That could be in where that answer lies. That may account for the CDers to be in touch with their fem side and have a better understanding of the feminine mystique.

Hmmm makes one wonder...Things that make you go hmmmm.

[thewife/soon2bex]

Thewife/soontobex
That is the best statement yet. To become a different sex one would have to unlearn the whole learned ideals and process of thinking that that sex had grown up with.If at birth your child was male and then raised as female there would be a better chance that that child would gain the insight that is needed to become the new sex. The same in the other aspect, female raised as male. There is still the full genetic concept that will fall into place, learned and genetic concepts and thought patterns will conflict.
We as a the claimed, higer thinking, creature on this planet should be able to accept the connection between male and female
and also the seperation line that is just where CDers and others exist.
I am the man in a dress who by genitic design or learned behivor will have to exist on the line between two worlds. I will do my best to accept both sides in their whole and still not loose the person that I am inside.
I have cut a hole in wall behind the closet I exist in and am slowly making it bigger.
The best to all,
Wonderwho

First, thank you. But, I think that many of the ideals that a woman or man has is NOT learned. I believe many of the mannerisms and traits are those that are part of who we are when we are created. I believe it is in the DNA. I don't believe - unless some is born with them, that the opposite sex can truly ever become the opposite sex. I believe that is why for many if they were to read some of the posts that are here they would cringe. Hearing a man call another man "she, her or telling them they look awesome as a woman most would cringe". I say this because when I first learned about my stbex and found this site, I was one of them. There are some posts that when i read them the reaction I had at that time was creepy. I am not saying this to be mean. I am saying this to be honest.

I know I will be slammed for this but trust me this is not being said to put anyone's hair in a doo.... But, I am saying this because I know how preposterous this seemed to me in the beginning. I know that through anger, fear, frustration and just pure understanding I have been able to work throuh this. But, I still do not believe that a man can EVER truly be a woman. I do not believe that with all of the intricate parts of being a woman and the DNA makeup of a woman that unless you have each and every last peice of the DNA a man can never truly be a woman and a woman can never truly be a man. This is just my 2 cents and my beliefs. I do however believe that a man or woman can try to feel as the opposite sex in roll play but will never truly understand all.

[Foxglove]

Hi, The Wife!

I've read your posts with interest. I think you're making some good points here.

My own personal take is this--but understand I'm speaking purely for myself. Other transpeople will disagree with me. I myself often feel feminine, but that doesn't mean I consider myself feminine in the GG sense of the word. How could I know what a GG is feeling? How can I know what her experience is and how it's affected her. I can't.

But that doesn't prevent me from feeling feminine on my own terms. I have feelings that GM's don't have. But I don't particularly worry about what is masculine in me or what is feminine. I'm simply me and I call myself "trans" because that seems most accurate to me. I do what's natural to me, and if others want to say that it's not entirely masculine or not entirely feminine, it doesn't matter to me. I don't see any need to measure myself against anybody else. As long as I'm myself, I'm happy.

Annabelle

[Gaby2]

As long as I'm myself, I'm happy.
Annabelle
Very nice, Annabelle.
Congrads on all you've achieved so far - it's truly admirable.
Thanks for your thought-provoking posts, in general - I've read only a fraction, I'm sure...

Who am I though?
Many of us haven't found ourselves yet and I think this is one reason, why a lot of us delve into our childhood in search of "reasons".

In the present, my experience is different to yours, as regards coming out as a CDer to men and women.
The men I've mentioned it to have warned me not to tell too many people, for fear people might start talking about me, and so on...
I suspect the men wouldn't want to be seen dead with me dressed at their side.
We'll see... in due course! :)
The women I've confided in have similar anxieties too, of course... but on a different level.
Their concern revolves more around me and what is best for me, as far as I can tell.
(I am aware of the fact, that I lack that wonderful God-given tool: female intuition.)

Best of all though, I'm delighted that they associate with me as a tentative guest in Ladyland.

:2c:Gaby

[noeleena]

Hi,

There is of cause this difference of an inbuilt desire to have ones own baby, to give birth to . to bond with & suckle , can there be any thing greater than this, i dont know about men though those iv asked would they wont to go through this part of a womans life, most have said,.... no way...... so i asked why not, they cant answer because they are not women to start with,

Even some or most trans can not handle this .

I find it very hard in understanding thier thinking,

Im wired in such a way that says female though im intersexed its part of who i am , i never related to or with men they are so different in many many ways, in fact i hated being around them & this goes back over 55 years, I dont even know how to think like or as a male theres nothing there, i did not have to learn whats it like being a female, it has allways been a part of who i am,

I tryed to understand men worked under them just never had that repore that men have with each other, i did learn enough to get by just never at home with them, I try to get along with them & i spos i do with some just its hard work, when you cant think as they do, any ways thats me,

The wife/ soontobex,

that is quite so, to be a woman or female you have to be born one, & some of us are, i am .even though i have some male to me, thats because of being intersex, or a mix of both .

...noeleena...

[thewife/soon2bex]

Hi,
The wife/ soontobex,

that is quite so, to be a woman or female you have to be born one, & some of us are, i am .even though i have some male to me, thats because of being intersex, or a mix of both .

...noeleena...

This is why I included "unless someone is born with these... (I mistyped and put some) to include those that are born with both.