A pattern I've been noticing for a long while... (kinda long post)

[WillowWriter]

For a long while now, I've been noticing a pattern between members of this forum, and their S/O. It seems that a common topic is telling their S/O about their dressing, yet they've been married a long while. It's something I can't understand, as two or three months into dating my girlfriend, I told her about it, because if you are hiding things from your loved one, its only gonna get harder and harder to come out, and they could act very differently then if they told them early on. I know its straight up hard to tell someone you love something that they might not like, but if they can't live with it, or even enjoy it, how can we say the truly love us. My girlfriend enjoys my dressing, we have a little fun with it, but I keep in to a minimum, as she's dating a guy, not a girl. Often, members are saying that they wanna dress whenever they want. That's all fine and good, but is it fair to your S/O? I truly don't think so. They fell in love with a man, not a girl. It's something I can't see be fair to our S/O. Between coming out to someone we love, to wanting to dress always, or in moderation, we really need to look at the situation and ask ourselves this: "Is it ultimately fair to her? Do we really have the right to complain about her wanting it around only so much, or not at all?"
My thoughts in the matter, we need to be honest about what we like to do early on, and we can't always be dressed, some situations are different, of course, but we need to consider what our S/O wants and needs. In all aspects of crossdressing, we really should always take every factor into account, as there is a cause and effect to everything. I know for damn sure that I wouldn't choice dressing 24/7 over my loving girlfriend. It isn't fair to her, nor is it to myself. We can't always go around thinking at our own needs are the only in the world, it doesn't work that way.
With this post, I wanted to start a discussion about these patterns I've witnessed around the forum. Agree? Disagree? That's up to you, I'm only saying what I think and feel. Everyone is different after all.

[Stephanie47]

Your analysis maybe fine and good for you young people just starting out in life in 2012. Try getting into the time machine and transporting yourself back to the 1950's or 1960's and the 1970's. You'll get a totally different picture.

[WillowWriter]

Your analysis maybe fine and good for you young people just starting out in life in 2012. Try getting into the time machine and transporting yourself back to the 1950's or 1960's and the 1970's. You'll get a totally different picture.

Yes, I am speaking as a 20 year old, but how can we allow ourselves to hide a huge part of who we are from out S/O? I know I didn't grow up when times were very much harder for the trans world, but the sure doesn't mean I had it easy. I've been beaten up, I have scars on my face, chest, and hands, because I was different than other kids and people around me. People may become more open over time, but the ones who never can, still can very much hurt you. Hiding things like this, it'll lead to much more pain and heartbreak. It's the sad truth.

[Miriam-J]

Stephanie's right, but perhaps not descriptive enough. When we grew up in the "old days", most of us were convinced that (a) we were all alone in our strange interest and (b) no one, and I mean no one, would accept what we were doing. It was a lonely, dangerous world for the crossdresser - and even more difficult for the transgendered.

Thankfully the world has changed a lot in recent decades (as discussed extensively in another recent thread), so there's a lot less excuse for not telling early now. I hope to hear less and less of such concerns ten years from now.

Miriam

[Lorileah]

Stephanie, so what you are saying is being dishonest in the old days was acceptable?

I agree with the OP (No surprise) and I am a child of the late 60's and 70's. However, even though I kept the secret from the world, I didn't hide from the one person who should know you and trust you. And when you do that you are basically saying to your SO "I don't think you can handle this and make a wise decision and show me just how much you really care for me. Thus, I will lie to you. I will lie about the clothes today. I will lie about money later. I will lie about anything I don't think you have the ability to make up you own mind on...Because I am selfish. I want you to tell me what you feel and what you are, but you get the facade."

So getting back to the age part. It is 2012, so why can't you now tell your SO? It isn't the 60's anymore.

[Eryn]

In my case, I didn't really know what this strange fascination was until something prompted me to do some research. That sounds really improbable, but that is the way it was.

[WillowWriter]

Stephanie, so what you are saying is being dishonest in the old days was acceptable?

I agree with the OP (No surprise) and I am a child of the late 60's and 70's. However, even though I kept the secret from the world, I didn't hide from the one person who should know you and trust you. And when you do that you are basically saying to your SO "I don't think you can handle this and make a wise decision and show me just how much you really care for me. Thus, I will lie to you. I will lie about the clothes today. I will lie about money later. I will lie about anything I don't think you have the ability to make up you own mind on...Because I am selfish. I want you to tell me what you feel and what you are, but you get the facade."

So getting back to the age part. It is 2012, so why can't you now tell your SO? It isn't the 60's anymore.

I very much agree with you Lorileah. It's wrong to lie to your loved one, they are the person that should understand you the most in all of the world, and lying to them, doesn't help the case. It only risks many bad events that could happen over years to come.

[GinaD]

Having hidden Gina from my wife for many years until she busted me cold, I realized not revealing Gina to her in the beginning was a big mistake. The painful result was a humilating and painfull divorce. If I could turn back time, I would either reveal Gina as soon as I felt there could be a future with someone and see what happens, or would do what I do now, only have a limited relationship with someone who meets Gina at the beginning. Lying about it, regardless of the social view of CD at the beginning, was a huge mistake.

[Kate Simmons]

A true relationship is based on trust and is also a partnership. Both of these factors should figure in how we proceed with those we love. If either of them are lacking, the relationship will be problematic at best and potentially disastrous.:)

[PretzelGirl]

First, we are all different. But in my shoes, I just can't imagine not being able to tell my wife something. I wanted to marry her because I wanted to share every part of my life with her and I wanted to have her share her's with me. I just don't feel my definition of marriage could be anything different.

[Miriam-J]

First, we are all different. But in my shoes, I just can't imagine not being able to tell my wife something. I wanted to marry her because I wanted to share every part of my life with her and I wanted to have her share her's with me. I just don't feel my definition of marriage could be anything different.
I agree with this entirely, and I certainly feel this way with my current wife of three years. But I wasn't always so wise in my choices, and lived with the first such decision for over 20 years. Unfortunately it appears that many others made less informed choices as well when they were younger and are still bound by those choices.

Miriam

[TeresaL]

Stephany is right about those of us in the fifties who were in denial about TRANSVESTISM. TRANSVESTISM was so shameful that we discriminated and bashed TRANSVESTITES. We, of course were not transvestite, so we went to war and did overcompensating things to prove we were not that much maligned, detestable, perverted, TRANSVESTITE.

I married at twenty three, then at 35, drove into my parking slot at work, slumped over my steering wheel and sobbed my heart out. The most disgraceful feeling overwhelmed me like the dark veil of death. Why? Because I realized that the wretched TRANSVESTITE was me.

[Nicole Erin]

Listen to WilloWriter, she is 20 years old and that is the age when we know everything.

Willow look - I am close to 40 and even 20 years ago the GLBT community was still trying to make ground. Here is one for you -
Look up on youtube 1950's homosexual PSA. There will be a video that is black and white, about 10 minutes long... THAT is what our older sisters had to deal with. GLBT back then and probably even in the 60's and 70's had NO rights. Even in the 80's when I grew up people were afraid of it.

ALSO as far as "owing" someone something, as you age you start to realize that no one owes anyone a damned thing.

I know for the typical person in their early 20's they think they have it all figured out but trust me, you guys have plenty to learn yet.

EDIT - for my older sisters here, I am not claiming to have been around back when a 57 chevy was just another car on the road, I will say I cannot imagine what you all went thru. Even us 80's brats had it rough and I know we had it a little better.

[WillowWriter]

Listen to WilloWriter, she is 20 years old and that is the age when we know everything.

Willow look - I am close to 40 and even 20 years ago the GLBT community was still trying to make ground. Here is one for you -
Look up on youtube 1950's homosexual PSA. There will be a video that is black and white, about 10 minutes long... THAT is what our older sisters had to deal with. GLBT back then and probably even in the 60's and 70's had NO rights. Even in the 80's when I grew up people were afraid of it.

ALSO as far as "owing" someone something, as you age you start to realize that no one owes anyone a damned thing.

I know for the typical person in their early 20's they think they have it all figured out but trust me, you guys have plenty to learn yet.

I'm not claiming at all to know everything, let alone say that crossdressers back in the 50s on should've come out in public as a crossdresser. Please understand that "typical" doesn't mean everyone, and what I'm saying is it's 2012, why can't people start breaking down some walls, and stop lying to the one person they truly love? I'm not saying I know anything, I'm just saying I have my own views of the matter, and I'll say that for almost 21 years of life, I've seen Hell, and plenty of it.

[Tara D. Rose]

Having hidden Gina from my wife for many years until she busted me cold, I realized not revealing Gina to her in the beginning was a big mistake. The painful result was a humilating and painfull divorce. If I could turn back time, I would either reveal Gina as soon as I felt there could be a future with someone and see what happens, or would do what I do now, only have a limited relationship with someone who meets Gina at the beginning. Lying about it, regardless of the social view of CD at the beginning, was a huge mistake.


This post GinaD is a very good example of why some cd's do not tell, even the ones that are on here and do not disclose this side of us to our wives, do read stories like this, and thus, do not tell their wives for the fear of losing them. I can understand that. Some may love and need their wives so much, that yes, they will keep this side of them a secret forever. There are those marriages of 30 plus years or so and the wife doesn't know. Should the cd tell now? Those are the cd's that grew up in the 50's where this was a horrible taboo. These wives in those long term marriages, grew up in that same era where this was a marriage killer.

I agree with the op that it should be disclosed at the beginning of a relationship and or marriage. So when two people get together and are thinking about marriage, why heck yes, it's time to tell, she may leave the cd, and they may not get married. She may tell all of the friends. But at least he was honest, and if she does leave him because of the cd'ing, then he will not have a failed marriage as a result of disclosure. In today's times whether young or old, when a man meets a woman and thinks of becoming married, they have his site and so much other information on this topic to help everyone understand, and so, it is right that the cd disclose the cross dressing especially even more so with so much help to define cross dressing.

Things are different today than those that married in 1959 or 1962. For some cd's that have been married for a long amount of time, in some and not all of these marriages, the husband is the best one to know how the wife will react, especially the long term marriages where they know just how they will respond to almost anything. So the husband doesn't want to lose his wife in some cases, so he never tells. We read of divorces on here a lot by the husband disclosing. If they dress only sometimes and they have a happy marriage and he knows she will want divorce in his heart, should he tell anyway, knowing she will leave.

But this is different to ones meeting these days, yes, tell it all. Tell everything about this to someone new. Even still, she can ruin his life by telling the world. It will be a fact, that after he tell his wife to be, regardless of what she does with it, she will always have something over him. We even read of divorces where the wife has known for years and years, and then gest a divorce for other reasons, but then claim, it is the cross dressing. We have read these many times on here. it works for some and not for others. So I say, yes always tell before marriage, and maybe after marriage, but not in all marriages.
Younger people especially have an advantage in this, for they are more open to diversity and acceptance at 20 to 25 years old than what the 55 plus age group is or grew up.
I'm not disagreeing with anyone here. I just feel that ALWAYS disclose is not ALWAYS the (right,best) thing to do in a long term marriage. Some husbands did tell and lost their wives, then live with regret and pain. Sometimes they disclose and all is well. Sometimes the price of disclosure can cause greater pain than a clear conscience. Just my 2 cents worth.
Peace and Love,Tara

[TeresaL]

What I'm saying is it's 2012, why can't people start breaking down some walls, and stop lying to the one person they truly love?
And that is what most crossdressers in this century do, TODAY they tell.

Gone are the foreboding issues and monikers. Even the name, crossdressers is being used, LGB became LGBT, shrinks stopped using shock treatments and reparative therapies to get us to stop. My latest therapist told me there is nothing wrong with me, and nothing to be cured.

However, I recall in the nineties that transvestite (crossdressing was getting preference at this tme) websites abounded with ideas on how to keep crossdressing without your spouse knowing or finding out. How-to hide your stash, getting a P.O. number, renting a storage locker outside of town, and many things I forgot after all these years. I also recall how many sites that I frequented in the nineties would push for herbals and Internet pharmacies.

Times have changed; I have changed with them

[MissyDuskGG]

I can understand the fear of a man who cd's, losing his wife because of it. So he never tells her for the sake of the marriage, relationship, whatever. But it'll nag at him until it eats him up inside because the urge to dress is strong. He'll think about it constantly. Sometimes, the truth comes out anyway. Even if we try our hardest to prevent it from happening.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Its not a lot different for others = trans or us who are intersex, go back to 1947. im 65.

no info no Drs'or Gps you ....would even .... wont to talk to, let alone say im intersexed,

at age 10 youd be cartered off to the nut house & mark my words no if's or but,, your gone .i know some of the storys of those who went though hell because of those damm idiots , very different for us,

& what would i say any way, forget it, the trend is world wide look at over 100,000 people not just here with 26 000 about, members. youll see why. more like about 200,000 people & even then we have no idear really,

...noeleena...

[Melissa73]

yeah i can understand being open in the beginning, and i know that now! but i was raised in the 80's and caught by family members. And even thought they knew, we treated my dressing as a "secret" never talked about....and mom even said, it was fine to dress in the house, but be careful of going out. there would be people to hurt u. This has stuck with me.....that, and also that there was no internet available, to let me know i was not alone. I thought i was weird, and perverted. for dressing! A fact i told my wife, last month when i came out. Its only now, i realize how tolerate people can be!!!!!

Melissa73

[ReineD]

However, I recall in the nineties that transvestite (crossdressing was getting preference at this tme) websites abounded with ideas on how to keep crossdressing without your spouse knowing or finding out. How-to hide your stash, getting a P.O. number, renting a storage locker outside of town, and many things I forgot after all these years. I also recall how many sites that I frequented in the nineties would push for herbals and Internet pharmacies.

Times have changed; I have changed with them

That's a great point! I joined this forum in 2007 and there were lots of questions about how and where to hide stuff. Tons of them. Today there are just a few. The consensus among the responses in threads about whether to tell the wife or not, is to tell. This was not the case five years ago. And although there are still some small groups in this country who feel they can provide a "cure", I think they are fewer and farther between. The medical profession almost universally prescribes hormones for those who need it.

Gosh, when I first started reading SO support sites, the biggest complaint among GGs was, "Eek, my husband wants to wear panties". And now it's not uncommon to read, "OMG, he wants to transition".

It took Stonewall to propel the gay movement out of the closets, out of the DSM, and into the mainstream, which now is leading to gay marriages and gay adoption! Although there has not been a single, deciding event in the T community, there have been many small news stories about transitioners, beauty pageants here and there, a famous model or two, a sitcom even if it was unsuccessful, that are inching general awareness forward, tiny bit by tiny bit.

Back to Willow Writer, I agree with you that there is no excuse to not tell a SO, especially today with all the information available ... unless of course someone who has been married for 30 years has not told yet, and he feels that telling his wife will wreck his marriage. He should still consider telling but it is not an easy decision to make, not when you're near retirement and are facing the loss of half your assets through divorce, especially in this economy, especially if you don't CD much. Also, in order for this CDer to have told his wife 30 years ago, he would have had to have known WHAT to tell. Twenty or thirty years ago, CDers who liked to put on ladies things in order to masturbate might have thought they had an odd sexual quirk that was sick, perverted, and shameful. They understood nothing about gender identity or gender non-conformity. And it is understandable they would not have wanted to share something so personal and shameful with their SOs especially if they kept trying to stop. But I'm guessing the CDers who had a better handle on it did tell. So we do need to make allowances there.

[Beverley Sims]

I won't call it a selfish attitude amongst some, more like thoughtless.
We all get wrapped up within ourselves and sometimes forget the feelings of others.

[Daisy41]

Why do we speed down the highway? Why do we rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt? Why do we continue to vote for the same congress people we claim are crooked? The point is, we can read up on all the history in the world, but once the experience becomes yours, it's different. I know I read about purging and trying to suppress cross dressing was a common trend and was pretty predictable. I read about marriages that failed and marriages that succeed post revelation. The problem was, this was my life, my future, my wife. I thought I'd be one of the few to successfully purge and remove the urges from my life. A lot of people today may be coming out in their relationships, but the fact of the matter is, when they go forth in a marriage, cross dressing becomes a minor blip in one's life. You're starting a new life, you eventually have kids becoming a part of your family, other things become priority. Once the urge to cross dress comes back, it does so with a vengeance and without warning. We try to hide it because we truly put our S/O's and family first. We want to be the best father in the worlds, the most supportive husbands, we don't want to jeopardize it in any way at all.

And as much as S/O's may accept what we do, it's honestly far from the majority. Coming out to your girlfriend certainly isn't the same as coming out to someone you are obligated to spend the rest of your life with. When you come out, you have to accept the worst possible scenario: your life being ruined. You have to determine if this part of your life that you so unsuccessfully tried suppress is enough to bring it all down into shambles.

Add to that, I wasn't even sure where cross dressing would take me. Before marriage, I just enjoyed wearing dresses around my apartment. I hadn't gone out en femme. In fact, the idea of en femme seemed silly to me. No make up, no wigs. As I got older, the desire to cross dress blossomed into so much more. How was I supposed to know it would go this way?

So while I would love to see more of us come out to our SO's early in the relationship, the fact of the matter is, we don't know where it's going to take us. So many of us would give up our lives for our family and wife. Why would we risk it for something as "silly" as wearing a dress? Unfortunately, for myself, and so many of us, it turns out the desire isn't so much as dressing up as it is expressing a feminine side that has always been locked away. We don't know that until later in life and quite honestly, from what I've read, it's not something we just decide to do. We wake up one day and we see a skirt that we're dying to try on and we're not sure why and it won't go away. So, we continue to make the same mistakes as so many before us.

Either way, I think it's important we push those getting into a relationship to reveal as soon as possible and comfortable. For those who are reluctant, we need to be here for support and offer advice and suggestions.

[Sara Jessica]

Your analysis maybe fine and good for you young people just starting out in life in 2012. Try getting into the time machine and transporting yourself back to the 1950's or 1960's and the 1970's. You'll get a totally different picture.

Every situation is different. I'm a child of the 70's/80's and I disclosed well before I got married. Kind of like going out, it just seemed like the thing to do. Being so alone with my TG nature, perhaps I just needed someone to share it with rather than to stay alone.

[*ROXY*]

Because we're human. There isn't a person alive who is totally open about everything they do and feel all the time or we'd all end up in A&E or therapy.
As wonderful as it is you told your partner that you crossdress it's a bit high and mighty to come on a forum where people are after advice and support and open a thread saying "why don't you tell you partner strait away I can't understand it"
If you're after praise for telling her - good on you! - pat on the back. The pattern you refer is not a pattern, just a common theme, funnily enough it's a massive thing for someone who's kept it secret for such a long time and to do so will often ruin and break down their relationship for obvious reasons. I would say a pattern would be
1) come out to partner
2) go ape **** with the shopping
3) wonder why the brakes have come on
For reference I have told my wife, she's fine with it, I didn't tell her at the beginning like I should but hey, that's the way it panned out.
There I've finished ranting now, nothing more to see here, move along....

[Cheryl T]

Firstly I have to agree with the statement that things today are far different than they were when I was 20. Had things been so open then I would have had a completely different life from then to now.
That being said I attempted to be honest once. Remember now that growing up and discovering this side of me in the 50's was much different. There was no internet, no open discussion of sexuality and those who were "different" were outcasts. I realized I was not alone about 12 years after first feeling "different"...I was 18 then. It was such a relief to know I was not alone. Then came college and a wonderful girl. We were in love and she was everything. I wanted to marry her so it came down to telling her my secret. I felt it would be fine as we told each other everything and she would never hurt me, just as I would never hurt her.
Well....I was wrong. When I told her she called me a "freak". Said she wanted a MAN...not a FREAK!! My world crashed.
Move ahead some years and I'm now in love with someone else. I want to marry her. I CANNOT tell her and risk losing everything again. As much as I wanted to...and sometimes hinted at it...I could not take the risk. It was not lying, deceiving, cheating...it was self-preservation. Then some years into marriage she discovered the secret. We talked and talked and it was rough, but it wasn't the right time. I went back into hiding. Then I reached the point where I couldn't hide anymore and I came out to her. I suppose the years had brought security in our relationship and she was willing to explore this and now she is my biggest supporter.

Sometimes we want to share everything, but circumstances just won't allow it. Had that been now I would have told the first girl right away, maybe things would have gone the same, maybe not...can't worry about that now. It is what it is!

This is a difficult and very individual thing for each of us. We alone can determine when and if the time is right...

[kimdl93]

Lets not be to judgemental about how other people handle their relationships, nor how they may integrate CDing into thier lives. Many people have grown up without having a clear sense of what this phenomenon is and frankly, if they were like me as a young adult, they hoped to suppress it or perhaps make it go away. Its not a matter of dishonesty, but rather a matter of knowledge. Twenty years or more ago, the world was a different place and knowledge as well as attitudes were different. So, I didn't tell my first wife. For that matter I wouldn't have known what to tell her. She eventually teased it out of me and we had some fun with it. But it could have gone differently - she might have been appalled. She wasn't, but don't judge those who quite rightly fear a negative response from their wife or SO.

And as to how we dress and interact with our wives or SOs, thats a matter of mutual consent. If you want to present as male, most of the time, and your GF prefers that - great. But if my wife accepts, maybe even enjoys having me present as female most of the time, and our relationshp works on that basis, then that's ok too. Its incredibly presumptuous to suggest that one size fits all.

[TonyaV]

Please, I am not trying to hijack this thread, but I need to provide a little bit of background in order for my point to make sense.

What if you didn't really know your "condition" early on in life? It's true I played with my mother's shoes and clothes as a child. But I had sisters and no brothers to compare myself to. I played with the neighbor's kids every now and then. Because I was always exposed to females at home, and pampered by my older sister, I could relate to girls at schools, so I hung out with them rather than the boys. I think I was a pretty boy; many men often tried to hit on me, touch me etc (you get the picture). As a result, as a teenager, I had one not-to-appropriate relation with an older guy (in his 20's), all the while I was dating girls. In case you're wondering how I let it go, I had lived overseas where I'd be the one in trouble had I outed him. But, honestly, I also enjoyed the attention he gave me. He treated me better than his own wife. This went on until I was about 15. Fast forward until I am 20 yo. I still run into the man periodically, but the sex had stopped. I wasn't attracted to men - instead I became resentful, even to date, when I shake any man's hand, I don't do well with hugging if it's someone I know (I am very comfortable hugging and kissing women). Another year or so, I moved to the USA to finish school. I liked the new life. No one here knew about my past, especially my deviant affair with the few men I had been with (which usually started somewhat unwillingly - but without much resistance). I had few male friends in college, dated girls, and eventually married at 25, started a family - 3 beautiful kids. It appears that I must have blocked all of of my past, including any 'abnormal feelings.

Now comes the dilemma:
I started dressing in my wife's clothes about 10, maybe 15 years ago (I am now 50). And one Halloween day, I decided to crossdress, while away from home. It was my first outfit, and my first outing. I am not sure how good or bad I looked. I had asked a friend, to whom I confide with, to help me dress. She did, and she accompanied me that night. It was the combination with the newly-discovered feeling of the breeze up my skirt, and the compliments I got at the bar that got me hooked on the "idea". I thoroughly enjoyed myself. After that day, I started paying attention to women's mannerisms, clothes combinations, styles, make-up, and began to build-up my wardrobe, which I stored at a storage facility. At the time, I had thought I was one of very few people who are simply sick and screwed-up. Every now and then, I'd purge. Before long, the urges would come back stronger. Eventually, dressing up became more and more frequent. As things were progressing in the deepest of my soul and being, my head kept telling me I am strong. I can get over it. But I simply was unable to beat it. Before long, I started shaving my legs, my chest, and my underarms. I couldn't have felt better. My wife, although complained about my prickly legs, didn't mind because I told her my leg hair was bothering me on long drives. Few years ago, I joined the Form, and started to learn more about my self. About two years ago, I came out to her. At first, I thought she had accepted it. But soon after, she made it clear - either her or cross-dressing. At that time, I was really enjoying being Tonya, and going out regularly. As I was weighing my options, and was actually leaning toward leaving her. And only few weeks after, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. At that point, everything stopped. I had to take care of her. I couldn't be selfish. She's better now (with gorgeous bigger ones - I am so envious), thank God. As of recently, when I start hinting about it, she's quick to reply "I can't stop you if you want to do it; but I will not stick around. I married a man".

So, to answer the OP question - how could I have known 25 years ago, to tell her. I didn't even know. I don't think I am going to win this battle. Tonya is way too overpowering over me. Should I stay in a marriage, which, with the exception of this secret, is very healthy? By the way, I have not dressed in over two years, and it's tearing up inside. Or, be selfish, leave, and MAYBE be happy?

[Ceri Anne]

Willow, I agree with you, and it is wrong to hide something from your SO. That said, in starting a relationship, there is no excuse for not coming out after a fairly short time, as you di in 3 months. In many of our cases, we had inclinations we didn't understand or knew were taboo, and didn't come out to ourselves until later in life. I've only dressed for almost a year, yet just had my 28th wedding anniversary. Coming out to someone after that long, while it needs to be done is a much more delicate matter with much more at stake. Often this person is not a tolerant person which ups the risk that much more. I believe that is why this is such a hot topic on the boards. How, when, should I, can I just stop dressing, I can't stop now what and so on. Its an internal struggle with possibly tragic consequences. Discussion of this is proabably one of the most important functions of the forum, and even if one is being dishonest to their SO, I think most are trying to find a way to remidie that situation at the same time of figuring out themselves. This is why support from others here is so important.

[GG7irish]

I hope it is ok to post here, but I feel honesty is always best.
I'm in my 40's and so is my SO, we were both raised by parents from WW2 generation. I know the topic is a difficult one.
It all comes down to honest communication. Being lied to no matter what the subject hurts more than what you were lied to about does.

My BF was completley honest and up front at the beginning of our relationship and it is still new to me, and we are starting a wonderful open relationship that I am looking forward to.

My parents were married 54 years, Daddy said nothing is perfect but you can survive anything together if you are open, honest and trust each other with everything. Sadly I did not follow that the first time i was married. I wish you the best.

[DebbieL]

We have several great responses in this thread. The question is very much a valid one. And we have several generations of responses here.

Consider that by 1955, when I was born, the United States had just fought World War II and the Korean War. Many people tried to get out of the draft because they were feminine and didn't think they were physically fit to fight. Many were drafted anyway and turned into medics. Nurses were in short supply, so medics often functioned as LPNs. On the battle-field, medics were the first to be shot. On medical units (MASH) they emptied the bed pans, did the grunt work, and moved the stretchers. Most simply didn't survive.

By 1960, we had the McCarthy witch hunt, and being Red or Pink was considered being a "'Communist". Teachers who didn't conform to gender roles could be fired and black-listed. The treatment for men who wanted to be girls was to try to convince them that this was unnatural and that they should accept their gender, those who resisted were given shock therapy (electric or insulin), which at the time was done without anesthesia, sedatives, or paralytics. The shock therapy was not precise and the shocks were intense and painful. Memory was destroyed. If the shock therapy didn't work, they would move to orbital lobotomy (like in the Fannie Farmer story) driving a spike like an awl or ice-pick through the frontal lobe. If that didn't work, they would do full frontal lobotomy.

If you cross-dressed and you were clocked, you could be arrested immediately. The police would put you in a jail cell with 10-20 other men, wearing your feminine clothes, with no way to defend yourself. In some cases, you would have to "cuff up" having both hands cuffed to the bars of the cell, and then the guards would suddenly have to leave - leaving you exposed and available to any man who wanted to rape you. If you tried to bite them, the cell-mates would knock your teeth out on the bars. You were almost certain to be convicted as a sex offender, and record of your arrest would be made available to family and employers.

In the public schools, boys who were "sissies" were often physically beaten and stoned. The term "Sticks and Stones can break my bones but names can never hurt me" didn't apply here because the "Sissy" label would make you a target for other boys who would use baseball bats, broomsticks, or tree branches 2-3 inches in diameter to beat you. You would be required to play soccer in physical education class, where the boys would trip you and kick the ball into your face, which was then followed by getting kicked in the face, back, and gut by many other boys on the team. When the came was "Touch Football", they would put the sissy across from the meanest guy on the other team, who would take great pleasure in beating the sissy - even if it meant not getting to the quarterback.

In Jr high (7th - 9th grade) boys were required to shower after gym classes. The "Sissies, Fairies, and Queers" were hit with towels rolled into rat-tails and soaked with water. 20-30 boys would do the whipping and the result would be hundreds of welts. Other times, they were pushed up on the lockers and pressed against the tabs as they slid down - leaving 10-20 gashes 1/4 inch deep bleeding. Often, the gym teacher would tell the "Jocks" and "hoods" who to target. Many boys in Junior high in the 1960s would commit suicide or have fatal accidents. I had two cousins, who I knew were transgendered, one gay - who killed themselves. In some cases, they would be chased after school, running in terror into a busy street - where they would be hit by cars.

Many femme boys were assumed to be homosexuals, they couldn't get dates, and were regularly approached by gay boys who wanted to have sex with them. Some of those people ended up dying of AIDS, because in the 1970s, they didn't know about AIDs, and when it was identified, many couldn't afford treatment, others just saw it as a way out. Not a pleasant way to go, but for many transsexuals, the prospect of living as a man was worse than the prospect of dying of aids.

Remember that the Harry Benjamin protocols for diagnosing and treating transgender men wasn't written until 1969, wasn't widely published until 1971, and wasn't accepted until the late 1970s. Even then, the tendency was to push for a minimal diagnosis and try to convince patients that they were just transvestites and should just live their life as men. In many states, cross-dressing and treating transsexuality was still illegal. A CSW or LSW was legally not allowed to discuss these issues and most mental health programs relied almost entirely on the CSW and LSW staff, with psychologists supervising the whole team and a psychiatrist taking the recommendation of the team. The chances of a transsexual or transgender getting into a mental health program and being properly diagnosed was pretty much nil.

Those who survived and still wanted to get married to a woman learned to act more masculine. In some cases, they became almost cartoons of masculinity. Many turned to religion. Many felt that since they had to conform to their male gender role, that women should conform to their gender role. Some would even insist that their dates wear skirts or dresses and would show no interest in any woman who wore pants or shoes that weren't very feminine. In the 1960s and 1970s, the most common ways to meet members of the opposite sex was dance clubs or disco clubs. Even then, gender conformity was important. Women who wore skirts and heels usually got all the free drinks they wanted, and a ride home and back in the morning. Saturday Night Fever made men's fashion more interesting - for about 2 years, but women had trouble telling which boys were just gay and good dancers and which guys were heterosexual.

MTV and the 1980s was an interesting split in contrast. The Boomers were already married, but the slackers were watching Madonna, Sting, David Bowie, and big hair bands. They also had punk. AIDS had made "kink" such as bondage combined with masturbation or other forms of safe sex that did not involve exchange of fluids more popular. Still, the resources available for transgender men were scarce and very difficult to find. There were several magazines on "Sexology", Penthouse Letters, and later Variations, that explored sexual diversity. These magazines were more popular with women, because they had fewer pictures and many more stories, as well as less emphasis on being rich and having lots of "Playboy Toys". Since there were numerous different topics covered in each issue, many women began to explore many different fantasies, but were reluctant to share those fantasies - especially if their husband or boyfriend seemed to be averse to anything too unusual. Transgenders who had years of experience being hurt, rejected, and having their hearts broken when they shared their true nature, often went to extraordinary lengths to hide it.

Many transgender men honestly hoped that once they were married, were having normal sex on a regular basis, and had the responsibilities of husband and father, that they would lose the desire to dress up, to be a girl. Many ended up feeling trapped instead. They loved their wives and children, which made it even harder to accept that they still had these desires to dress, to be feminine. Often, they would start doing it, but after having years of experience in how to do it without being caught by parents, siblings, class-mates, and room-mates, they were masters at hiding it, of deception. Many had adopted masculine personas, practiced talking in a lower voice, and would wear whatever uniform the other men were wearing - whether that was coat and tie with baggy pants or a black T-Shirt and blue jeans. Many even became "Bikers", wearing the leathers and buying Harley Davidson Motorcycles - trying to act almost a cartoon of masculine.

Some continued the deception until the children were fully grown, others were caught or confessed to being transgendered to their wives while their kids were still young. Some women felt so completely deceived that they just wanted out. Others had already grown fed-up with the marriage, the lack of sexual and emotional intimacy (common for a Transgender to withdraw emotionally and sexually when trying to pass as a man - since it's not something they want to do but something they feel they MUST do). Divorce became far more common, and many transgender men found their wives using their dressing to blackmail them into giving them a divorce, a very generous settlement, primary physical custody, and even to revoke or wave visitation rights. The wives often found new boyfriends who they married, since they didn't have to worry about losing Child Support.

Times have changed dramatically in the last 30 years. In the 1990s, the world wide web made it possible to get and share much more information about sexuality, including transgender, cross-dressing, and transsexualism. It was easier to find others who could be supportive. Being gay was no longer enough to get you severely beaten or killed. Many states passed legal civil rights protections or extended their civil rights protections to Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender people. Transgenders were protected because so many transgenders were PERCEIVED as being gay, even if they preferred sexual partners of the opposite of their birth sex. With the Matthew Shepard law, it became a crime, a hate crime, to violently attack someone for being Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, or Transgendered.

Even today, there are fine lines between Cross-dressers, Transgenders, and Transsexuals in terms of legal protection. In many laws, the Transgender person must state that their self-identification is opposite of their birth gender. In theory, a man who considered himself all man, and had no desire to be a woman could be excluded from protection granted by laws protecting transsexuals. Fortunately, it's not legal for someone to ask, since that would be harassment.

Legally, there has been more progress in the last 2 years than in the previous 20 and more in the past 20 than in the past 60 years.

Today, if a man even says "I wish I were a girl" to a therapist, the therapist has to consider that person a transsexual, it is now unethical for a therapist to try and convince or coerce a transsexual into accepting their birth gender. Many cross-dressers have spent decades on the see-saw, wanting more than anything to transition, but not wanting to have to deal with all of the consequences. A cross-dresser might secretly want to be a woman, but he doesn't want to lose his wife, his children, his job, his friends, his church, and the credentials he has spent years or decades to establish if they transition.

One of the problems of trying to get a transgender person to accept their birth gender is that they may give it lip service, but may become self-destructive in the actual practice. This self-destructive behavior could include drinking, recreational drugs, overeating, giving up on exercise, working 18-20 hours/day, avoiding sex, love, intimacy, withdrawing. They may become more apathetic. Many will experience health problems ranging from headaches and backaches to lethargy, depression, or even heart attacks or strokes. Unfortunately, many transgender men struggle either way, trapped in a body and wardrobe they hate, yet too insecure about a positive outcome in transition.

For many of those who try to keep their secret from their wives, whether for a few days or a few decades, asking them to tell the truth to their wives is like asking them to give up every success they have earned in their lives, their wives, jobs, family, friends, standing in church, community, give up their home, their life savings, everything. In my own case, I had to confront the fear that I would end up in a homeless shelter or prison where I would end up being raped regularly - for the rest of my life. I had to meet my sponsor - in a homeless shelter, while dressed as Debbie. Once I confronted that fear, he had me join him for lunch, at the soup kitchen, where I listened to people who had lost all hope and saw no way out of their situation. I realized that I had an education, skills, a positive outlook on life, and (at that time) 10 years clean and sober. Even if my wife left me and I had to pay child support, I could have a life.

I told my wife 2 weeks after we moved in together, but 6 months before we got married. She was very much in love with me, was sick of living with her father who was getting very drunk and angry (though not violent), and her mother who was regularly drinking on prescription medications that shouldn't have been mixed with alcohol. She loved what I did with her sexually and loved that I was so easy to please sexually. She had originally thought I was homosexual and I had originally thought she was a lesbian. She was very masculine and I was very feminine. When I met her, I was wearing a red paisley vest that was tight and showed off my 28 inch waist and 38 inch hips and my 38 inch chest. Not quite 36-24-36, but still a very feminine figure, with clothing to show it off. She was wearing a flannel plaid lumberjack shirt, brown men's work-shoes, and hair that was a bit short and pulled back. Her "Sister" who I knew was not her sister, wore baggy blue jeans, flannel shirt, and had a boy cut hair and men's tennis shoes. I was actually surprised that she wanted to date me. Later, I found out that her first husband was gay. She had been raped and may have initially been interested because I looked gay.

She seemed accepting at first, but very quickly, she wanted me to make a number of dramatic changes, including quit smoking, be compulsively neat, and let her take control of the finances. She seemed to enjoy me sexually - until about 2 weeks after the wedding. After that, she refused to initiate, usually said no if I asked, and if we kissed, would say "I hope you don't think this means we're having sex". When she decided she wanted a baby, the sex was mechanical and lacked passion. After trying for a year, I went to have my fertility checked. She told me the doctor called and told her that everything was normal. She went to her best friend's bachelorette party and according to her diary "got drunk and danced all night, but some of it is a fog" - I knew that she had torn cartelege in her knee, that she could only dance if she had taken a medication which made her act very drunk and very "frisky" - wanting sex even more than I did. I suspect that she had had sex with one of the male dancers at the party. When she came home that Sunday, she told me to dress up, tied me to the bed, ball gagged me, threw the condom I had put on the headboard into the trash, and said "We're not using that, we're making a baby" - then whispered into my ear "you'd better enjoy this, you'll be paying for it for the next 20 years". She had been talking divorce before this, and it was clear what she was saying. My son was born just short of 9 months later.

After that, for the next 7 years I was trapped in a marriage that was mostly platonic, we'd have sex 2-3 times a year - she told her friends "Just so he won't forget what it is he isn't getting". After another night out at a male strip club, and coming home at 4 AM smelling like sex, she took me shopping, spending extra time at my favorite stores - trying to get me in the mood. That night, she told me "It's tonight or six months from now - your choice". We hadn't made love in almost 8 months, so I accepted her offer - the result was my daughter.

When we finally did get divorced, I did have to give up nearly everything. I had rented the house, when she moved out I moved to Denver where I stayed at a "No-Tell Motel" until I found a new job, I started going to gay AA meetings and Biker Meetings (where women were more accepting of Debbie), and more NA meetings. My new employer knew about my dressing and was OK with it, women held many of the top executive positions. I made friends with several women who liked Debbie and one introduced me to a woman who LOVED Debbie, we were together for 2 years. She eventually got an offer she couldn't refuse for marriage involving several million dollars. I then met another woman I dated off and on for 15 years, and finally met my current wife - who was also very interested in Debbie and loves Debbie. She still isn't comfortable with me wanting to transition. If I knew beyond a doubt that I would have a positive outcome, I'd want to transition, but I am very tall, have a low bass voice (which I can feminize passibly when dressed), and at 57 years old, I wouldn't be the young and beautiful woman I've always wanted to be, but instead would be an old lady who would have to do full make-up and wear a wig all the time just to avoid obviously looking like a really ugly drag-queen.

Many who do tell their wives after many years have a hard time being honest with ourselves let alone our wives. When I was 5 years old to 24 years old, if I had been offered the chance to be able to get hormones and live full-time as a woman, I would have snapped it up in a heartbeat and paid any price that did not involve criminal acts. When I moved in with Leslie, and she accepted the dressing (sorta), I told her I could be happy just keeping it at home, that I didn't want or need to transition - and actually believed it. The desire to become a woman never went away, but for a few years anyway, I figured I could just keep it personal and private. When she took a few pairs of my boxer shorts, sewed the crotch shut, and started wearing them as shorts in public, something snapped. I had been shaving my legs, but I shaved them and wore shorts in public, I was tired of the double standard, the emotional castration, the frustration. Had I been honest with her and shared how I had felt for the previous 20 years, she would have left me, but I wonder if I would have been better off. Because we stayed together, I went to more AA and NA meetings - because I could smoke at the meetings. I stayed clean because we both knew that a relapse would probably be fatal. I changed careers and became very successful in the computer industry because I needed to support her and the kids. I went to a couples counselor who helped me find a counselor with gender identity experience, who helped me to transition - until Leslie threatened to have my child visitation revoked permanently.

Had I NOT stayed with Leslie, had I transitioned when I was 20, back in 1980, it would have been more like castration. It would have LOOKED real, but orgasm would have been nearly impossible. I would not have had the computer career, so I would probably have worked in drag shows or dark market (sex trade or drug trade). Given that it was in the 1970s and early 1980s, I probably would have contracted AIDS. I probably would have relapsed. I would have had ZERO legal rights, I could have been arrested just for appearing dressed in public, let alone using EITHER a men's or women's restroom. I might have lived another 4-5 years before I overdosed or somebody killed me.

Part of me wants to go back in time and tell my 24 year old self to RUN - DON'T get involved with my first wife. It also wants to go back and tell my 18 year old self "Tell them you want to be a girl!" - or tell my 19 year old self to tell my girlfriend about my dressing, that I WANTED to be her lesbian lover and let her have her boyfriends on the side. It wants to tell my 18 year old self to tell the kids in my class "Thank you so much for these transvestite magazines, yes I do want to be a girl, or at least "one of the girls"".- would I have been kicked out of school? Would I have ended up with AIDS? or worse?

I'm so glad that it is so much easier for a 20 year old to be honest with his wife or girl-friend. I'm so glad that we have so many more ways to get information, and I'm so glad that we have legal rights that protect us rather than treating us as sex offenders just because we dress differently or because our bodies and minds don't seem to match.

[TeresaL]

Debbie!!! What insight, and a marvelously glorious post. Thank you for sharing and baring the inside of your soul. You do have a psych degree.

[Angela Campbell]

For someone who grew up in the 50's and 60's it was a completely different thing. You would tell nobody...NOBODY!! If you told your soon to be wife...what if she told someone...she might...Then again at that time most of us...I sure was....were in complete denial. I never discussed whether or not I masturbated with a girlfriend or wife either, why? Didn't want her to know and she had no need to know. Did your girlfriend discuss these kind of things with you. In my day they didn't. When I was young a girl didn't even tell her soon to be husband how many men she had slept with...if she had slept with any at all.

Everything Debbie said was true by the way. I experienced some of that.

No it wasn't even a fleeting thought to tell anyone when I was that age. Now I would surely tell before it got to be a serious thing, but I have been married twice and did not tell either one. I am glad I did not. It would not have turned out well at all.

[Jenniferathome]

You can't undo the past. All you can do is try to make it right. I wish I had told my wife sooner, but I didn't. I can't change that. I can be honest now and going forward. I think it I pointless to debate what "should have been done."

[Stephanie47]

Lorileah, you are totally off base. You make the erroneous assumption because a man will not disclose cross dressing to an intended wife or a wife, that he will lie about anything and everything. Your thoughts are very shallow. The way I figure it the vast majority of cross dressers, as one has already stated, over compensate for their cross dressing. That may be the reason for many non approving women who do NOT divorce their partners.

You also make the erroneous assumption my wife of forty plus years does not know I am a cross dresser. She has known for forty years. She does not approve, but, she realizes this is a minute part of my overall being.

When I read these postings I always check on the age of the person. That gives me a lot of insight on why they believe what they believe. Some people have absolutely no sense of history.



Stephanie, so what you are saying is being dishonest in the old days was acceptable?

I agree with the OP (No surprise) and I am a child of the late 60's and 70's. However, even though I kept the secret from the world, I didn't hide from the one person who should know you and trust you. And when you do that you are basically saying to your SO "I don't think you can handle this and make a wise decision and show me just how much you really care for me. Thus, I will lie to you. I will lie about the clothes today. I will lie about money later. I will lie about anything I don't think you have the ability to make up you own mind on...Because I am selfish. I want you to tell me what you feel and what you are, but you get the facade."

So getting back to the age part. It is 2012, so why can't you now tell your SO? It isn't the 60's anymore.

[Eryn]

DebbieL makes some good points, but she paints a dark picture with a very broad brush that does not bear close examination. Implying that the majority of gym teachers or law enforcement officer actively perpetrated violence against boys who were not masculine is just ludicrous. AIDS wasn't even observed in the US until 1981 so it wasn't been a factor during the '70s. Exaggerations and inaccuracies like this make the other assertions in the post questionable.

[Kris Taylor]

A lot of what Tonya describes is what I fear in telling my wife. I hadn't dressed in 2 years, and as TOnya said I had purged a few times and come back to it. I honestly thought being married would be the thing that removed my interest in dressing - my "logic" figured I crossdressed out of lonliness. Suffice to say when a renewed interest reemerged 10-fold I was surprised. I've been married about a year now, but crossdressing has always waxed and waned for me previously. An interest for a few months and then no interest for up to a few years. I am not sure I want to have the big discussion only to have the interest wane again.

In a sense telling her about dressing is like the concern some would have over transitioning that felt the desire to do so - uncertainty of the outcome. I think people mistake concern over the outcome as a lack of conviction when it can just be your personality type and being pragmatic.

[Tina B.]

Today a Young person knows a lot more about what being a CD is, and what it means to be one, back in my day, as a kid, to confess could get you shock treatments to cure you, scary thought for a kid. As a young adult, I was a thought that marrying a good woman would cure you of the desire, so there was no need to tell, if that is all it took to make it all go away. Then after the glow of a new relationship faded, and the desire (need) to dress came back, it was a matter of fear of losing everything that kept me quiet. Finally after fighting the urge for a few years, it was realizing it would never go away, and the hiding the need, and the inter torment it was causing, was worst than the thought of losing everything was, that caused me to come out to my wife. Had I known then, what you know now, I would have told her first, and took my chances. But I didn't. I didn't even know what I was until I was in my twenties, there was not much out there to help figure out that I was not the only one with this strange desire to wear womens clothes, much less that it had a name, how do you tell someone, and make them understand when you have nothing to base Any of it on, and don't understand it yourself.