Does artistic taste explain CD etc?

[LelaK]

(Update: Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone and I don't understand how anything I said here was offensive. I noticed recently that I love "beauty" and I think I have good taste for art etc, so I was curious how others feel about "beauty". Regarding "Black Is Beautiful" I'm rather sure that it was several black women I read back in the 70s or so who said living in white-dominated society and programming they felt ugly and wished they were white etc. The Black Pride movement wasn't just to educate whites to respect black people, it was also to help blacks themselves to realize their own intrinsic values, despite what the surrounding oppressive society may say. And regarding CDs as weird, I wasn't saying CDs are weird; I was trying to say that society sees CDs as weird and, until we get support from each other, we probably have a tendency to see ourselves that way too. I'm a sensitive person {like many people are}, so, if too many people feel offended by my sharing, I'll go away.)

Questions:
- Is cross-dressing due to artistic taste?
- Is CD done out of love of beauty and urge to express beauty?
- Do humans have an innate sense of what beauty is?
- 18th century men's fashions seem rather feminine; was it because men too know what "beauty" is, but are usually hampered by macho (survival) ideals?
- Are CDs et al going through the same process that blacks went through in the last century?
(I remember reading about some black women saying then that they felt that their bodies were ugly and they hated themselves for not looking like white women. Then the Black Pride movement took hold and the slogan was "Black Is Beautiful". And these black women began to see themselves differently, as truly beautiful.)
- Is the same happening to us, that we're coming to seeing ourselves as beautiful, instead of just weird?
- Is everyone beautiful?

[Debra Russell]

Owe -- too much -- my head hurts.................Debra

[ArleneRaquel]

I just want to be feminine. Btw all people are beautiful in their own way, even my homophobic neighbors. I have no artistic ability whatsoever.

[Dawn cd]

I think that this is an old canard—that the gay or transgendered man is somehow more aesthetic and had a greater love of beauty. Macho men can also have a deep appreciation for beauty. Do we need to list the poet, painters, and composers who were NOT crossdressers? No, if we want to explain our crossdressing, we have to look deeper than our love for beautiful things.

[Kathi Lake]

Artistic taste? I don't know. In my case, it sure isn't artistic talent. I can't draw a stick figure without messing it up. :)

Yes, I have a love of beauty. I believe that the feminine form is one of God's most stunning creations!

While I don't view myself as beautiful, I surely don't view myself as weird. I am a normal, well-adjusted man that happens to like to dress up occasionally. Sure, some may see that statement as an oxymoron, but as for me - living in my own skin - I don't.

Kathi

[Karren H]

I'm an engineer..... therefore I have no artistic talent.......

[kimdl93]

That is a terribly big stretch. Styles change and what was considered feminine in the 18th and 19th Centuries is hardly relevant to today's discussion. There is a basic similarity between civil rights for one group and rights for another. But, to suggest that black women hated themselves is absurd...that slogan was directed at the white society that repressed blacks of both sexes.

But more fundementally, you're presuming we dress the way we do for simply aethetic reasons. Nonsense. If that were the case, we would be perfectly happy wearing men's bikini panties and men's pantyhose . But that's not the driving force for most of us. The driving force is to be dressed as a woman dresses because somewhere inside we feel an affinity towards or a need to express femininity.

[LelaK]

Update: Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone and I don't understand how anything I said here was offensive. I noticed recently that I love "beauty" and I think I have good taste for art etc, so I was curious how others feel about "beauty". Regarding "Black Is Beautiful" I'm rather sure that it was several black women I read back in the 70s or so who said living in white-dominated society and programming they felt ugly and wished they were white etc. The Black Pride movement wasn't just to educate whites to respect black people, it was also to help blacks themselves to realize their own intrinsic values, despite what the surrounding oppressive society may say. And regarding CDs as weird, I wasn't saying CDs are weird; I was trying to say that society sees CDs as weird and, until we get support from each other, we probably have a tendency to see ourselves that way too. I'm a sensitive person {like many people are}, so, if too many people feel offended by my sharing, I'll go away.

[Amy Fakley]

At the core of any artistic endeavor, you'll find an instinctual motivation to abstract some aspect of the reality we all share, and echo it back into that same reality. That is to say, at the center of every artistic pursuit from music, to painting to dance to whatever, is a mirror.

We are not all crossdressers because we're all artists. It's certainly not as simple as that. I think there is a strong parallel though, in terms of thought patterns and motivations.

At the end of the day the only truly knowable thing about crossdressing is that it really has no knowable, universal explanation. Like each of us: it just is. Ourselves in a mirror but different. Art.

[stephNE]

I always thought it did, but now I don't know. I'm an architect and felt that my admiration for women was a part of enjoying all things beautiful and my CDing was a way to emulate them (all women, not one in particular).
Again, please don't any one be offended, no offence was meant.
Karen, my brother is a mechanical enginner and he has told me many times that the only reason people build buildings is to have a place to put HIS mechanical equipment.

[mikiSJ]

I haven't the slightest idea about interior decorating. I can't tell who designed a dress.

I am a CD, not gay and low on the TG spectrum.

But, I really appreciate Mapplethorpe. The way he captured his subject far outweighs what ever repulsion some may feel for his 'style'.

But, I really appreciate Diane Arbus who was able to capture the under life of New York in a strangely quiet and caring manner

But, I really appreciate Ansel Adams and his ability to blend the entire spectrum of light into a black and white impression of nature

But, I really appreciate the Impressionists and their ability to take a street/park/lake scene and pull the essence of the scene onto a canvas

But, I really appreciate Vermeer and his photographic eye and understanding of light and perspective

None of the above has anything to do with my CDing or TG.

[bridget thronton]

I am a software engineering - i see beauty in many engineering artifacts and also can find something to admired in the appearance of most men and women

[kimdl93]

Update: Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone and I don't understand how anything I said here was offensive. I noticed recently that I love "beauty" and I think I have good taste for art etc, so I was curious how others feel about "beauty". Regarding "Black Is Beautiful" I'm rather sure that it was several black women I read back in the 70s or so who said living in white-dominated society and programming they felt ugly and wished they were white etc. The Black Pride movement wasn't just to educate whites to respect black people, it was also to help blacks themselves to realize their own intrinsic values, despite what the surrounding oppressive society may say. And regarding CDs as weird, I wasn't saying CDs are weird; I was trying to say that society sees CDs as weird and, until we get support from each other, we probably have a tendency to see ourselves that way too. I'm a sensitive person {like many people are}, so, if too many people feel offended by my sharing, I'll go away.

Lela, you invited opinions. And in my case, I may not have been gentle enough in expressing it, and if that hurt your feelings, then I am sorry.

I disagreed with most of the things you suggested might "explain" CDing. That's no reason to run away.

[Amy A]

I work professionally as an artist and art is a major part of my life, it certainly contributes hugely to who I am as a person and how I percieve myself. However, I don't see myself that there's a huge link between being artistic and being a crossdresser; I know plenty of artists who are quite macho but can go from kicking lumps out of each other on a football field to admiring subtleties in colour in a painting.

Also, the fineries of the 18th century you refer to would've been worn primarily by the aristocracy, and were more often a show of wealth (I'm no expert this is just my understanding). Your average man of the day would've worn much drabber stuff.

[TonyaV]

Well I am an Architect, and I've always been good at drawing, painting, etc.. I am very picky when it comes to choice of wardrobe and matching outfits. So I don't know if my attention to fashion detail is due to my TG tendencies or my artistic background.

[Angela Campbell]

I am very artistic, I am a good decorator, I am pretty good at fashion too. I don't think it has much to do with this though, but who knows. The same genetics that make me wish to be female may be the same ones who gave me these other gifts too.

[Ressie]

Questions:
- Is cross-dressing due to artistic taste?
- Is CD done out of love of beauty and urge to express beauty?
- Do humans have an innate sense of what beauty is?
- 18th century men's fashions seem rather feminine; was it because men too know what "beauty" is, but are usually hampered by macho (survival) ideals?
- Are CDs et al going through the same process that blacks went through in the last century?
(I remember reading about some black women saying then that they felt that their bodies were ugly and they hated themselves for not looking like white women. Then the Black Pride movement took hold and the slogan was "Black Is Beautiful". And these black women began to see themselves differently, as truly beautiful.)
- Is the same happening to us, that we're coming to seeing ourselves as beautiful, instead of just weird?
- Is everyone beautiful?

No
No
Some do, some don't
It was just a style reflecting that era
Probably not.
Some do, some don't
In God's eyes yes.

Artistic ability could be helpful in applying make up and may increase one's fashion sense, but not necessarily. We all CD for different reasons.

[AllyCDTV]

I am an engineer and have always had an huge interest in the arts. Still, I cannot say I am anything close to being an artist.

I think the question is not so much artistic taste or whether or not you are an artist but does creativity play a role in crossdressing? Engineers may not be artists but we are all creative.

[ReineD]

You invite opinion on several points, so here goes:


I don't think that CDing is tied to artistic expression, although all types of people crossdress including those who are artistic and also people who are perfectionist in their appearance. I've read a few times in this forum that for some CDers it is a form of artistic expression, but I think the desire to express a gender other than birth is much deeper than that.

My SO told me that at one time she was a perfectionist with her appearance, for example she would hate it if one of her press on fingernails should pop off. She felt that when this happened her inner male would shine through and this caused confusion, but I think this was more a form of internalized transphobia (which is understandably common among CDers living in our society), more than anything else.


As to what humans find beautiful, this is a complex topic. I think some of it is informed by familiarity. Generally people embrace that which they are familiar with and fear or shy away from what is not. This is why in marketing circles, it is known there are always a few "early adopters" of any new technology or style and if it takes off then others also begin to see it as beneficial or beautiful and they follow suite. Also, in some cultures for example, elongated necks (http://worthyourweight.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/padung.jpg) or stretched lips (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fo3q-ftIevA/UI54R80jOFI/AAAAAAAAAIE/tIVFKrRl_mY/s1600/68995748_5c3a5b6b02.jpg) are considered beautiful or desirable while in other cultures they are not considered appealing, because they are not familiar.


In terms of what people find beautiful in facial features, there have been studies about this and it turns out that we are attracted to the "average". Apparently we subconsciously average out all the faces we've ever seen, and we notice the departure from this as being NOT beautiful (for example overly wide foreheads, or large noses, or super small chins, etc):

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-12-18/entertainment/17941698_1_facial-attractiveness-average-face-ratios

Here's a cool online demo you can play with, to see for yourself:

http://www.faceresearch.org/demos/average



18th century male fashion was more feminine than today's male standards, but it was still more masculine by their own standards than female fashion. The same differentiation between men and women existed then, as exists now between contemporary men and women, although the gender gap is narrowing in contemporary culture to reflect changing roles of women in our society. You need to examine the differences between genders during the same historical time period rather than compare current standards to older ones.



In terms of CDers going through the same thing now as blacks during the civil rights movement, there are similarities and their are differences. Both groups respectively were/are oppressed and they sought/are seeking to climb out of the oppression. But, blacks were oppressed by having their basic human rights taken away and not having been accorded any human dignity. This is not the case for CDers who live freely in male mode. There is a seeming universal cultural anxiety with people who defy one of the most basic precepts of humanity that has existed throughout time and across most cultures, which is that there are two sexes, male and female. Although our current laws may change to allow freedom of cross-gender expression because we now realize that not everyone fits into the same mold, I do not know if there are enough people interested in cross-gender expression to eventually cause the 95% of people who are not cross-gendered to embrace it fully, even if they come to respect the remaining 5%'s (or 1%'s) freedom of expression.



If you consider yourself more beautiful as a woman than as a man, this indicates that you suffer from a degree of gender dysphoria, in my opinion, even if the GD not sufficient to cause you to want to transition fully. If you have no intention of transitioning, you may be outside the male/female binary in terms of your gender identification.

[Meghan]

Is everyone beautiful?

Yes.

I do believe dressing is an extension of a sense of style. Having a sense of style and wanting to express it is fashion. Oh, I how love fashion...

My wife believes I am channeling my artistic side more and more through makeup and clothes. It's a great vehicle to express it. I feel more artistic now in general because I get to bring that side out. We have an advantage that way :)

Meghan

[Kaz]

Lela... this was a good thread to start! As usual here, good threads get strong opinions/feelings... My immediate answer to all of your OP questions were 'yes'... but then I am coming from my 'place'... But we are a broad bunch here... artists, musicians (artists?), engineers, you name it... so I am increasingly convinced that the desire to CD covers a lot of personality and 'preference' spaces. However, I am sure that our personalities, skills, knowledge and experience 'colour' our approach...

Over the years I have learned to really value the skills, knowledge and experience of people who are just 'not like me'! Now that is where some of the best learning comes from!

So relax, enjoy, share and overall have fun... we might not agree with each other at times, but we respect and value what we all bring to the community!

[MssHyde]

I married an artist, it sure effected my life, she is very visual. she keeps my toe nails painted because she thinks are toes look good together, painted.
she painted the little rose on my foot, as you can see they need redone the polish had been on a long time.

192002

[docrobbysherry]

First, Lela, don't be overly sensitive. There r maybe 3500 active members here and only 50 to 100 active posters. Please throw your ideas and questions out with the confidence that MOST readers will not be offended no matter what u say! The Mods will protect us and u from anything too inflametory.

Many people have said Sherry's pics r a work of art. Yet to me, someone who's taste is in his mouth, I'm only trying to produce pics that please me. Once in awhile I create a photo I find exceptionally striking. Usually, others will like it, too. However, I'm most often struck by photos I consider pretty ordinary while others love them!

Beauty truly IS in the eyes of the beholder!

[Kaz]

OK, just reread the thread... it this is about 'black is beautiful" then apologies for not addressing it. Many of us will scare way from it as it may impinge our 'rules'.

But what the heck... if this is the issue (which it may or may not be), go for it! I never saw ethnicity as artistic, although ethnicity does derive artistic expression... I am a musician... not classical, but rock, blues and jazz mostly... I learn from others... currently experiencing Chinese regional music... awesome!

[Jaymees22]

Dear Lela, Good subject and please don't go away, I think your thought process is beautiful. For my 2 cents I think our feminine side makes us appreciate Art and beauty more than the average person. I do think Docrobbysherry's work is an art form and my pictures of myself to a lesser degree. Everyone is beautiful of course. Oh this is weird on so many levels, but I've never felt this good in my whole life and I'm pretty old. Hugs Jaymee

[Jenniferathome]

... so I was curious how others feel about "beauty".
And regarding CDs as weird, I wasn't saying CDs are weird; I was trying to say that society sees CDs as weird and, until we get support from each other, we probably have a tendency to see ourselves that way too.

Questions:
- Is cross-dressing due to artistic taste?
- Is CD done out of love of beauty and urge to express beauty?
- Is the same happening to us, that we're coming to seeing ourselves as beautiful, instead of just weird?
- Is everyone beautiful?

There was a lot here, but allow me to address the points that I have captured here:
1) Cross dressing IS weird. It does not matter what society thinks. It's weird. I mean even we cross dressers can't get our heads around it.
2) The answer to the rest of the questions is "no." Anyone claiming otherwise is simply deluding themselves and finding an "excuse" for their cross dressing as if this will somehow normalize it.

We don't need excuses to justify our cross dressing. It is. Attempts to justify it only make us look worse.

[Angela Campbell]

Weird? Well maybe that describes me. I am not normal by any means. In this day and age any man who attempts to look like a woman is not normal by societies standards. I think this is why it took so long for me to come to grips with this thing and accept myself. We are all taught throughout life that it is best to conform to the standards set up in our society. Anyone who does not is scorned and hammered back in place. This is why we all are so secretive about it. Whatever reasons we do it for we all know it is not a generally accepted practice and that puts us out of the norm.

Historically artists have been out of the norm as well. Many excuse things an artist does because they are "eclectic" or "strange" but it is this difference from the rest that makes the artist stand out. Many artists - including musicians of which category I fit into - do stand out. Look at the way many performers dress and behave. Same with painters, many dress more expressively than others. The mind of an artist is often one that works just a little differently than most.

[Foxglove]

There was a lot here, but allow me to address the points that I have captured here:
1) Cross dressing IS weird. It does not matter what society thinks. It's weird. I mean even we cross dressers can't get our heads around it.
2) The answer to the rest of the questions is "no." Anyone claiming otherwise is simply deluding themselves and finding an "excuse" for their cross dressing as if this will somehow normalize it.

We don't need excuses to justify our cross dressing. It is. Attempts to justify it only make us look worse.

I'd go along with this, Jennifer. It doesn't bother me if people think I'm strange. I think I'm strange.

And I'd also agree about looking for an "excuse". I'd like to know the reason, but I don't need an excuse. It's simply the way I am. Why I am the way I am is a question I'd like an answer for, but the fact remains it's the way I'm made. Nuff said.

Annabelle