Confused... [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

GeminaRenee

11-24-2012, 12:02 AM

I'm glad you brought this up...

Personally, the superficial manifestations of femininity are something that I struggle to wrap my mind around. Over the past few years, I was lucky enough to live in a really remote area. One thing that is strongly impressed upon someone living in that setting is the importance of material simplicity. One has only the things that one needs to get by from day to day - and it can be a remarkably freeing notion to realize all the bulls**t that one can live without. In fact, I recall returning to my stateside home after the end of my first year, looking in my closet, and thinking "Why the hell do I have thirty-six shirts hanging in my closet?"

Yet at the same time, I am unable to divorce myself from the idea that expression of my feminine side does not involve owning sexy pairs of high heels, or cute skirts, or about sixty different kinds of lipgloss. In some ways, this is incredibly frustrating for me, realizing that my maleness can be significantly pared down in a material sense, yet I am unable to reconcile that with what I strive for as Kali. So, I really have no answer for you about the superficial aspects of dressing.

But I have to ask, who are you to say that there is no manifestation of femininity in less superficial ways? In my case, there are a lot of ways... I am compassionate, I am a listener, braggadocio bores the hell out of me. I am going to school to be a nurse, largely because I want to help other people. And if you talked to my exes, I think many of them would say that I do have a lot of stereotypically feminine traits. One of my SO's said dating me was like dating a woman in a man's form. Another friend of mine, a lesbian, has said that she inexplicably finds me far more attractive than she has ever found any other man. So who's to say that there aren't many of us out there who do not manifest femininity in more substantial ways?

Guys are ostensibly visual creatures, right? So maybe this is why so many CD's dig that aspect of dressing. It gives us a very visceral way to reach out and touch that part of what is perceived as womanhood that really grinds our gears. Being nurturing or listening is just a very basic part of me - yet it will never ever thrill me the way seeing my foot beautifully arched in a sexy pump will. I wish I could explain it better, but that's all I've got. Hope it makes sense.

In the meantime, though - give us a little more credit than that, k?

Lady Catherine

11-24-2012, 12:03 AM

For me personally, it completes me in a way that perhaps words can not express. I can tell you there is absolutely nothing sexual about it. The clothes don't turn me on, they just make me happy.

Ms. Laura

11-24-2012, 12:05 AM

I don't know that there is a clear answer to your question, unfortunately. Or rather, I know that there is not. The way people feel about crossdressing is as different as the people themselves. Just look at the psych. diagnoses. Everything from low intensity transvestite to transexual with a number of grades in between.

For many it begins as a sexual "thing." I myself don't feel feminine so to speak, but then, what is that? My male self is more feminine than my mother is by your definition. (oy, compassionate?!?) However, when I am "done up" in my girlie clothes, the sense of matching my inner self-image with my outer, brings a sense of calm and happiness that I can't describe, you just have to experience it.

BRANDYJ

11-24-2012, 12:10 AM

For me, I think it's because I like to emulate what I adore, admire, lust after and find visually stimulating not just in a sexual way. Women are God's gift to man.Next it's the feeling of the clothes, especially soft silky nylon, satin and silk. For a short time I can relax and look and feel feminine. Just doing some of the things you mention while dressed in drab male clothes does not bring out the feeling. And I do some of the things you mention. I honestly think that my being a C has helped make me a more loving, gentle man. I am more nurturing than many if not most males, but that does not make me feel feminine. The clothes don't make me more nurturing, but I think I am because the clothes helped me get in touch with my feminine side. Admittedly, sex is a part of it for many. Especially in our young formative years when we were going through puberty and noticing girls and women. That becomes secondary, but never leaves.

I love to ride horses, so I dress the part. I wear jeans, western shirt, boots and a cowboy hat. I'm not going to feel like a cowboy if I was wearing a business suit; or for that matter, if I was dressed femine. So when I want to get in touch with the cowboy in me, I dress the part.

I hope this helps you to understand a little more. And thanks for asking a really good question. Maybe I could have given a shorter answer and that is, I like the way the clothes feel and the way I look.

NathalieX66

11-24-2012, 12:14 AM

DoorMat, you asked some very valid questions.
For me, my dad owned a childrens' clothing store when I was a little kid. The little girls dresses in the store were very adorable, and I had a soft spot for them. There was something about the way little girls are treated and I wanted some of that.
However, dressing as a woman, I want to experience that too. I have been very fortunate to have done so out in public on quite a few occasions, and I find it quite natural and enjoyable....even in the most dress down fashion.
You girls/women are so damn cool that I want to be one too! ...that's just me.
Peace & love,
Nathalie

Ressie

11-24-2012, 12:17 AM

I also feel feminine in plumber's pants as long as there are panties underneath. Really, my take is since we are males we must have the fem clothing to feel feminine and it's pseudo-feminine at least for me. We can only imagine, and since men lack imagination we need some makeup etc. Also compassion isn't exclusively a female trait.

AllieSF

11-24-2012, 12:52 AM

I need the clothes to complete the presentation that I want to make, that of an attractive sharply dressed woman. I am compassionate, kind and all that other stuff. What you mentioned is not only applicable to women, many men have those same characteristics. I don't necessarily feel "girly", actually that is not one of my favorite terms here that is way overused. I feel good dressed as a woman and have no problem feeling the same way when dressed as a guy. So, I need my women's clothes, all those shapers and squeezers to give me a more womanly figure, the accessories, belts, jewelry and purses to reach my goal. I feel that I do a very good job at that. Why I started this and why I continue this I have no idea. But, I enjoy my regular moments dressed and out on the real world doing almost the same things I would do in male mode. I have decided not to fight it nor question it. I embrace it.

AmyGaleRT

11-24-2012, 12:57 AM

Hmm...this is an interesting question!

My personal feeling is that my soul is part-female; the clothing just helps one side or the other to predominate. In drab, I'm a guy with Amy inside; her influence is still there, it's just not as visible. But when I remove that male clothing and slip into femme clothing, I become Amy with a guy inside. It changes my movement, my voice, and other aspects of my persona, and I often feel a warm glow from the expression of femininity. But both aspects of my self are valid, at least to me.

Of course, I also feel that if you ask this question to ten different CDs, you'll probably get ten different answers. :)

- Amy

Beverley Sims

11-24-2012, 01:03 AM

It is all about clothing, disguise and a little theater.
Later in life there is a bit of a change when theater and clothing wear off a bit.
Personality, getting on with life and a female persona set in, that's when you know you are hooked.
This is when the humble CD does feel more feminine inside. :)

noeleena

11-24-2012, 01:06 AM

Hi,

Im a bit different, Im still trying to figger out where i am concerning femininity. i dont think i am . i am a woman who's different ya ya intersexed, yet i dont feel feminine or girly for that matter. clothes yes they are nice yet i wear overalls for work i do does not change who i am . & i still have not got my head around why men wont to dress in our clothes,

So lets go back to 1400 to 1700. men wore skirts dress's as in our group = Renaissance = The S C A. not a issue no prob's at all . lovely colours all dressed up. & looking pretty neat. yet they are men or manly men no fluff there, they are not trying to be like females or women, i know these guys pretty well theres over 100 men & 100 women . & we spend a week every year together thats comeing up soon.

The issue that comes to mind is i dont look feminine to start with, facial features soon tell that story. yet im just a woman. accepted as one, just this is my lack , i know i make up for that in other ways, i never liked the way i looked 55 years ago & nothing ...has... changed, since then or will, the reason i hated my pic being taken.

I prefer takeing the pic's,

so femininity i dont know how to apply that to myself, or even if i can, to me im very plain down to earth working woman.
Yes i get dressed up. & my women friends do the frilly lovely Edwardian clothes, 1900 to 1914, i just stay with quite plain yet nice clothes of the time, i would look wrong out of place & stupid if i tryed to dress as my women friends do.

I know what i look like so dress accordingly, well i hope i do. i do get nice comments so its not all wrong .

So i do struggle with this feminine = femininity.

...noeleena...

Kelli Ca

11-24-2012, 01:21 AM

Why ask only if you actually have a problem with your husbands dressing. Maybe we just prefer something soft and pretty, doesn't mean we aren't compassionate at the same time

Meghan

11-24-2012, 01:30 AM

I have picked up on that here, and it sounds like you're happy to express these qualities in everyday life. So why the clothing at all then? Or am I half right in thinking that there is also a desire for the clothes themselves, making this not JUST about feeling feminine?

Yep, still confused :)

Clothes are part of the experience. Early in the lifecycle, I think makeup and clothes are fun to play with as we find our sense of style and what works for us. More specifically, my wife and I are both extremely attracted to contrast. That's how we found each other. By extension, the more feminine looking garment against a piece of male anatomy creates significant contrast.

In other words, why ease into the world with a nudge here and there? Why not jump in?

It's hard to answer this question because you've directed it at non-ts CD'ers...I am someplace in-between those two so I might not be qualified to answer. If you look at my history, I have only related well to women, I am compassionate and I raised two children pretty much by myself until I met my current wife almost six years ago. Clothes aren't even close to the only or most important part of me. But, they are a fun extension!

Meghan

ReineD

11-24-2012, 02:48 AM

If you're a visual person, maybe comparing all of this to a gradient grayscale can help. In your OP, you separated CDers between just plain CDs, and trans CDs. First, you need to know that the word "trans" means to cross over. To some people (the TSs), it means to permanently cross over (full transition and live full time). To others, it means to dip their toe in and pull it out again (repeatedly), while for still others it means to jump in, swim a little ways, and then come back and climb out again. To people who are not trans at all (the men who do not crossdress) it means to not go near the river, in fact they do not even know it is there.

Anyway, in your eyes (and in many other members' eyes), the spectrum is as follows:

Garden-variety CD => CD with a degree of feminine identity => TS
(White => Gray => Black)

During the 1960s, a researcher (Dr. Harry Benjamin) came up with a six-step gradient describing the needs of birth males who crossdress, from males who just puts on women's clothing for kicks (usually this is purely sexual), to someone who needs to transition. So Benjamin's grayscale looked like this:

White => LightGray => LightMediumGray => DarkMediumGray => DarkGray => Black

But, in reality, the spectrum of differing needs is a full gradient, with a million shades in between the white and black. This means that unless a male is a pure fetishist (has absolutely no desire to dress for any other reason than sexual gratification), there is a degree (to varying intensities according to each individual) to express innate femininity, that non-trans men do not experience. Men who do not crossdress are not on this gradient.

The clothing helps to get in touch with inner femininity, but it is more than just the clothing, it is also transforming the total look with wigs, makeup, breast forms so that the image in the mirror can approximate how the CDer feels inside, even if he is not transsexual and has no wish to alter his body in any way or to live full time as a woman (which would be the black end of the scale).

Here's an older post I made, just so you can see the Jpgs of the gradients:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?174972-Labels-The-Black-Hole-between-CD-and-TS.&p=2853849&viewfull=1#post2853849

Kate T

11-24-2012, 03:07 AM

It is a valid question DM, it particularly seems to be a common source of confusion as GG's early on come to grips with the whole thing.

I know some GG's hate this way of looking at it and turning the question back on you but it can be useful. Do you like to wear something nice when you go out? Something pretty, a nice dress or skirt and top to go out to dinner or maybe to church. Do you always wear plumbing pants / trackie dacks to go out shopping or when you are going to meet friends or family? As a GG you can relatively easily express that side of your personality through clothes on a daily basis in a variety of social interactions. A CD cannot / will not for fear of social isolation and ridicule. Consequently the CD is "forced" to express this element of feminity in a safe environment, i.e. at home, when it may not seem particularly appropriate e.g. wearing heels to do housework. In addition, particularly early on after coming "out" to a spouse a majority of CD's go through one or more "pink fog" phases where it seems like they are trying to do everything feminine all at once. The child in a candy store that goes around tasting everything, even when it is not appropriate or they don't even like it, is also a good analogy. In this context the CD's behaviour seems over the top and rediculous.

However from my experience and reading many of the threads here and elsewhere, typically as the CD "matures" this behaviour tends to settle, they will typically settle into appropriate styles of dress for appropriate occasions, particularly as they gain experience in going out en femme. Even still though, don't you sometimes like to wear a skirt around the house, particularly a comfy old house skirt? Or a favourite top? Your not wearing it for anything "special" or even because you are trying to look deliberately "feminine", because as you rightly point out you can do that easily whatever you are wearing, but just because you like it and you want to.

Another way to look at it is when you wear plumbers pants / tracky dacks or even a nice pair of slacks and buttoned shirt are you trying to be "masculine"? I am guessing that you aren't, you are just wearing them because they are comfy and you like them. Try and turn it around in your head. For me wearing a skirt, particularly around the house, is not a special attempt to "feel" feminine, sometimes it's just cause it is "comfy".

I hope this helps. Yes I am CD, yes my wife knows and has done for around 2 years. Yes, she did ask almost exactly the same questions you are asking. Yes we are still happily married. Yes, I wore some rediculous things, particularly initially after telling my wife (most are now donated to charity shops except for 1 particular black dress that god knows where I would EVER wear it!) and yes, now I tend to be far less "girly" about the whole thing, one of my favourite outfits for just doing general stuff (shopping etc.) is a pair of jeans that I could and do equally wear in either male or female "mode". You are right, feminity is not an outfit, the outfit is just a part of the ways that we express it.

Joanne f

11-24-2012, 04:01 AM

I am not sure what category I come under so not to sure if my input is laved or not , I will agree with you in that there are many other ways to feel or be in touch with your feminine side and as you say a female will be feminine what ever they are wearing but you have to take into account that is their whole part of them so that will shine thought all of the time whatever they are doing or dressed like .
There are some TGs that have the ability to feel feminine in this way and I believe that I am like that as it is always there as part of me but there are a lot of CDs that need a bridge to cross to get to that other side of themselves , they have to physically go from one side of themselves to the other and the only way they can do that is to cross or build this bridge and they do that by the way of dressing the part , they temporary leave one side to reach the other then when it is time they cross back over simply by changing clothes , I must admit I find it difficult to understand a bit as there must be some sort of driving force to make them want to do this and I think that there can be many different reasons why a CD dress's so it can be quite complicated unlike if you are TG where it is just part of you , it is almost like a CD has to escape from something by becoming something else for a short time which is like a sort of therapy if you think about it ( I am not saying that CDs need any type of therapy but just how it acts on you ) so to answer your question yes they do need this bridge in the way of dressing to feel that they have transformed into someone that is feminine and female and leave the other person behind for a while , in one sense I envy them as they have a clear cut plan of action unlike being TG you can just get stuck permanently somewhere half way across that bridge always in no man's or woman's land and then you may need therapy :D or end up like me insane :heehee:

Beth Wilde

11-24-2012, 04:12 AM

A good question indeed...... For me then answer is a simple one:

I really enjoy having a feminine side and I like to express it. I do stereotype the female look with heels and skirts but as a big burly bloke, putting on plumbers pants makes me look like a plumber! To really BE the girly side of myself, I have to dress up/make up and then I can let it all out.

jaleecd

11-24-2012, 05:38 AM

In my experience, I see GG's dress to fit the roll that they are engaged in, jogging suit to jog, golf clothes to golf, slacks or jeans and a tee shirt to shop, or sweats or work out clothes to exercise. They(the GG's) costume to fit the activities they are engaged in. Us cd's wear the garments that are appropiate to the inner urges that we define as feminine to our inner gurl and how it helps to make that feeling a little more real. We can only guess at what a GG's reality is, but as stated above, the clothes and all the other accessories the are associated with women will have a irrestable attraction to be tried and worn as we reach out to acquire a tiny touch of feminine mystique.

ColleenA

11-24-2012, 07:01 AM

One aspect that I haven't seen anyone mention has to do with presentation to others. Obviously if a CDer is going out en femme and interacting with other people, it is safer and more desirable to let the general public assume the person is as female as any other woman. In that sense, then, their femininity does come in part from their "outfit" (to use the term from the OP). And the more distinctly female-specific the clothing, the better the chance for "passing," unlike with ambiguous clothing that offers few gender clues.

Unfortunately, I would not be able to pass as a woman without Hollywood-level costuming and makeup, so none of the above pertains to me. For me, then, a big part of wearing women's clothes (around the house) is that it is simply fun. There are so many wonderful articles of clothing or combinations when assembling outfits that I never get to wear in the context of my daily life as a guy, but which I can revel in as Colleen.

Is this not the magazine-model, Barbie doll version of feminine?

So, yes, I would say it is the Barbie doll version of feminine, but there's nothing wrong with that. In a sense, it does kind of compare to young girls dressing and re-dressing their Barbies in numerous outfits. Or just as they might put on mommy's clothes and pretend to be a grown-up, putting on Colleen's clothes enhances and helps me with the chance to "experience" a different world - being a woman. (Besides which, the mere fact that the clothes I wear belong to ME gives them an extra appeal I was denied when I was a teen and snuck into my sister's closet to put on her clothes.)

What on earth do painted nails, long hair and flouncy skirts have to do with femininity?

You get to take these things for granted, DM, because you have unlimited access to them. For that reason, they can lose any real sense of being special. But for me to whom they are denied, living in a world of assumed and enforced masculinity, they have EVERYTHING to do with gaining entry into that entirely different world of femininity!

For a parallel, think about a 14-year-old who sees their 16-year-old sibling get the keys to the family car - even if it's for something as mundane as going to the store to pick up milk. To that 14-y.o., those keys and that car represent a form of freedom and self-determination that they are still denied. They can only look on with envy as they see their sibling get to be a part of that world. (Meanwhile, for the 16-y.o., finally getting to drive is still huge in its newness. But after enough time, that special quality will wear off and it will simply be one more thing they take for granted, just as I say you do with nail polish, hairstyles and skirts.)

... there are a lot of CDs that need a bridge to cross to get to that other (feminine) side of themselves , they have to physically go from one side of themselves to the other and the only way they can do that is to cross or build this bridge and they do that by the way of dressing the part ...

Thank you for this input, Joanne. I really like the way you said it.

Kate Simmons

11-24-2012, 07:04 AM

It's a close approximation of how they think it feels. For some the only way to reflect that is to dress the part. After awhile if they really "get it", they will realize that it is all about compassion, caring and sharing as you say. That is the part of femininity and womanhood that is the most fulfilling. :)

Fashionista

11-24-2012, 07:18 AM

Not sure whether I am the right one to answer, as I also don't really like my body the way it is (TS). I took on sewing as a hobby and became quite good at it (you don't see a difference between an item I bought and an item I sewed), and I don't require makeup, long hair or painted nails to feel feminine. Still, I use clothing to express that side of me, and try to integrate female items in my male wardrobe. No, that does not mean that I wear female panties underneath my regular men's clothing; it means that I e.g. wear a skirt or heeled boots when I go grocery shopping.

To answer your question: I think that part of what makes crossdressing interesting to the average guy is that it is still forbidden. Some start crossdressing out of curiosity. How does it feel to wear a skirt? Is it really that hard to walk in heels? Many people start crossdressing at a younger age, e.g. by wearing their sisters clothes.

When you are saying that you can feel feminine while wearing plumbing pants, you are feeling feminine because you know you are a woman. If a guy puts on plumbing pants, it makes him even more manly. Crossdressers want to experience the world in the role of a woman, and clothing, long hair, painted nails and makeup are the stereotypical ways to show this. For many, it's a turnon looking at themselves in full drag in the mirror. Someone external will see a guy in a dress, the crossdresser will see a woman - the brain will do the rest to eliminate the love handles or the beard shadow.

Are clothes really that relevant? Well... if you are honest with yourself, yes. If I want to look sharp as a guy, I can put on a smoking. A girl once told me that for her, a guy in a smoking is the ultimate turnon. Ok.
Smokings nowadays have come a long way. They can be black, black with velvet, black with silk, or .. ahem... black. Shoes that fit to a smoking are black dress shoes, maybe patent leather. But ultimately - black.
If I go shopping for a suit for the office, I've got a wide variety of colors to choose from. A colorful black, a joyful grey, a nice brown. Or variations of that: Black with grey stripes, brown with black stripes, etc.
You see where I am going. Men's clothing is totally boring. Women do have more options - from a color perspective, the fabric, the variety of items (dresses, skirts, heels, etc.) and the cut (most of the time more figure hugging).

If I would ask you to not wear heels, skirts, dresses, etc. for a year and just put you in men's clothing, I think you would really want to finally be able to wear something feminine at the end of the year again. You have got the choice, men don't. Most men don't care about this, crossdressers do.

Is this the barbie version? For some, yes. Girls that play with barbie dolls also want to dress up as a princess when they are young. Crossdressers that just start often want to dress up this way - but normally, this stops after a while as this wears off.

Regarding the question to "feel feminine": This is a difficult question. For many crossdressers, they just want to slip into a different role, which is supported by clothing, makeup, etc. - once they are in drag, they feel feminine. I've seen blokes totally changing their behaviour when slipping into their female persona.

When I still went out in drag, I experienced many things that I liked about being a girl. I got compliments about my look, guys flirted with me, I even got invited to drinks. I didn't have to be manly, show everyone how tough I am, that I am the born warrior. For me, this felt relaxing. It felt good - as a guy, you don't get compliments that often just for looking good.

I don't think that all crossdressers are sex maniacs who love girly clothing. Some are, many are not. Whether your husband falls into the one or the other category, you will have to find out.

The one thing that you should know: All crossdressers that I've met so far that were married cared very much about their wife, and were more compassionate about her needs than any other guys I've met that didn't crossdress. While you might not like that you husband crossdresses, you can be sure that he still loves you very much and doesn't want to hurt you by crossdressing.

ChelseaErtel

11-24-2012, 07:38 AM

I am TS, but I asked my therapist why clothing etc. was so important. She said the clothing, makeup, etc were a symbol of being female and symbols are a very important part of being human. Our session was over, so she couldn't go any deeper and I haven't brought it up again.

But, for me if my body was female, the clothing would be less important. As it stands now, having a male body I hate the dressing puts a band aid over the problem and temporarily fixes the wrong body.

I think the symbol aspect is an important factor for CDer as well. But there are so many different CDers that the importance of clothing etc., would in my opinion, will vary. On one side of the spectrum you have the fetish CD and on the other you have the TS. I know I love the feel of the clothing, the level of variance to express yourself - the sheer amount of different styles available, the lovely lingerie .....Man's clothing is far more functional and boring. I love the process of doing my nails, and my makeup. I love the ability to express yourself with the different colors for nails, clothes, and makeup. I love ladies jeans, slacks, long skirts, flouncy skirts, pencil skirts, pleated skirts, .......

This is an excellent post and is the reason I went to a therapist in the first place as I was trying to find out why it was so important. I know you weren't asking TS's, but I think there is some of the same aspects for a CDer as well.

For the non-sexual TG, I view it as how much of our brain is female. For a small percentage, dressing now and then allows them to get in touch with that feminine part, and for a TS its all about having the wrong body for a female brain. And I believe there are TG's for everything in between those two extremes.

I agree that femininity isn't an outfit, but for a man trying to express femininity it's the only way they can express that part. Don't know if I helped or not, but here it is anyway.

Erica Marie

11-24-2012, 07:43 AM

Maybe a different way to look at it is that if society would accept a male in female attire as they would accept you in plumbing attire it may all seem much more normal to you. To alot of people men dressing up is taboo, to us it is being able to express who we truly are.

GaleWarning

11-24-2012, 07:53 AM

I think it is all about choice.

Males have fewer clothing options than females, both in terms of material of manufacture and variety of mixing and matching.

Shirts and polos vs a huge variety of blouses, camis, dresses etc; also boring colours vs vibrant colours.
Trousers vs capris, skirts, leggings ... again in boring colours vs vibrant colours.
Socks vs a huge range of hosiery options!
Men's shoes vs the whole wonderful range of women's footware!

For me, it's not a question of being or feeling or trying to emulate a feminine person (my character is androgynous).
For me it's about freedom to wear whatever I feel like wearing to suit my present mood.
Most of the time, this just can't happen!

Wildaboutheels

11-24-2012, 07:57 AM

Do I try, need or want to be Feminine when I put on some of the "wrong stuff"?

NO. Never in 50 plus years. And no matter how many folks may chime in to say, that's not possible, it won't change anything. It's simply birds and bees 101 for the vast majority of CDers who ARE men. It's no coincidence. And... according to many reports here, there are many other CD sites with an entirely different flavor than this one. Of course I seriously doubt, that most of the men on those other sites have ever felt any shame or guilt but I am also guessing they have zero interest in wearing any female articles of clothing out in public.

Many/most here started out "that way" and kept going and MOST all are surprised how far they have come.

A theme commonly tossed about here on a frequent basis is SRG. Shame, Regret and Guilt. Depending on the level of SRG, is it not a possibility if not LIKELY for some CDers to "progress" as a means of dealing with it? To "progress" into Femininity? The mind can and WILL do all kinds of things to cope with inner turmoil. Why would CDing be any different than anything else?

Essentially for some of us, it's simply clothing.

adrienner99

11-24-2012, 08:04 AM

I once asked GGs here, "What is femininity," and NONE of them mentioned dresses, high heels, perfume, etc. They all mentioned compassion, gentleness, selflessness, strength, confidence, nurturing, etc.

Practically all CDers are compassionate, helpful, generous, kind, etc. in my limited opinion. But for me, femininity, is absolutely, most definitly, without question about the outfit.

Pauline52

11-24-2012, 08:10 AM

I, being a furniture maker and owning my own business have discovered a different aspect of cross dressing. During the day I am a man and at night I am a crossdresser that is out to those that know me. What a releif, most of my clients are women, and don't feel threatened by a crossdresser. That being said, My business has improved 100% and my life is much easier to deal with, to some of their husbands I have opened some doors for them by breaking the ice for them. Now they thank me for opening the doors that wearing panties and all that nice stuff is alright. There are more pantie wearers in the world than we think. Most men don't think that I am a threat to their relationships and also love my furniture I build for their wives. EVERY ONE IS HAPPY!!!!!!!

kimdl93

11-24-2012, 08:34 AM

I puzzled over this question for a while. I agree with those who point out that there are perhaps as many reasons for choosing to dress as there are CDrs. Certainly, emulating women is the motivation for CDrs. And for others, wearing women's clothing simply harmonizes the contents with the cover. But I truly think that the difference is a matter of degree and not kind.

I know im not in the same category as your husband, but for the record, I'm not into frilly, Barbie doll styles. I grew up around practical women who often wore pants and reserved make up, nail polish and jewelry for special occasions. I live and dress the same way.

Alberta_Pat

11-24-2012, 09:44 AM

I thank You for asking the question.

You have received many answers, and each one is valid for the person who gave it. I, personally, am comfortable in the garments produced for both men and women. Clothing is simply clothing.

I enjoy taking the time to portray a woman. It is a comfort to me, even though it is something that happens once a month or so. I do not "feel" a difference in myself regardless of the clothing I am wearing. I am simply Me, and that is all I wish to be.

One thing concerns me as I read this thread though.

This is your "user name". The name "Door Mat" suggests that you feel used, and that you are not "worthy". If this is so, please KNOW that YOU are a valuable person.

GeminaRenee

11-24-2012, 09:51 AM

I've been thinking about this since my first reply... isn't to say that compassion, nurturing, sensitivity, etc. are feminine traits just a bit chauvinistic? You know, women = housewives = mothers = nurturing, sensitive, great at decorating, and so forth? Meanwhile, men are not supposed to be any of those things, and when they are, they often find themselves taking a jape or two from other men for their supposed weakness.

Meanwhile, I think about the men I know, and if I'm fair - plenty of them have some or more of these ostensibly feminine characteristics. Yet, I doubt that too many of them share my love for slingback pumps. So why do women have a monopoly on this set of traits? And in all actuality, if you're honest about it - you have to admit that some women are very much lacking in terms of these qualities.

Wouldn't it be more fair to say that all of those traits are simply human, and that both men or women may possess them?

Cheryl T

11-24-2012, 09:53 AM

You bring up so me interesting points...
First of all, for me this is not an "urge" it is a NEED. The need to express a part of my being that is hidden from view most of the time and by 'dressing' reaches it's full expression, not only for me but for those that see me.

Why do we use clothing to express this...well it would be quite difficult for a nudist to express it without just seeming to be gay. The vocalizations, mannerisms and such would only make him appear effeminate, not appear as a woman which is the intent we have.

As for the "Barbie Doll" image...true, for some that is the path they choose. I'm sure for many if not most it was a path we have walked at some point owing to the presentation of femininity by society as either "Barbie" or sex kitten. Sex sells, just look at any magazine. As for the ultra feminine styling it is promoted even by the women's fashion magazines such as Marie Claire. Look at ads from Macy's, Nordstrom's, Lord & Taylor, Bloomingdale's just to mention a few and what you see is predominantly high fashion.
I know I began with those images in my mind. Wanting to emulate the sexy women of Playboy or the runway. Over time though that was replaced with my own view.
If you traced the timeline you would see "Barbie" at the beginning and your average woman now. Certainly on a Friday or Saturday night if I'm going to an nice restaurant I'm going to wear my most feminine lingerie, zip up a pretty (and slightly sexy) dress and step into my highest heels. But the rest of the week you would find me in a tank top and shorts/capris (in summer), a t-shirt and jeans with sneakers or flats most other times. My hair might be a bit messy or in a pony tail and I certainly don't resemble "Barbie" at all.

Over the years I have grown in my femininity, just as most women have. The prom dresses are gone, the pretty dresses hang waiting for a special occasion to doll up, and my everyday clothing fills my drawers and the laundry hamper. I too can feel equally feminine in plumbers pants as a nice skirt and blouse and I wear what is appropriate for the occasion, but then doesn't every woman do that?? Don't most women enjoy feeling sexy and ultra feminine now and then, yet not relinquish all those feelings simply because they've donned blues jeans?
So how am I different?

Yes, this humble girl does REALLY feel feminine inside. It's not the act of dressing that makes me feel that way, the act of dressing allows others to see how I feel.
It's not about the clothing anymore than my car is needed for me to love driving....

Jenniferathome

11-24-2012, 11:50 AM

Hi DM,

I don't know know about the sex maniac comment, because for me, dressing has nothing to do with sex, but I certainly have a thing for "girly clothing." I do not think we crossdressers, in general, are hiding behind a word like femininity, in order to wear women's clothing. The clothing is simply an outward expression. Most crossdressers prefer skirts and dresses to pants and t-shirts because femininity is an archetype or even an ideal that we identify with clothing, long hair, makeup, etc. we dress and then behave slightly more feminine.

So something bothers me about your sex maniac comment. I am not insulted, just worried about you and your situation. It seems so out of left field, so to say. Please know that us "normal" crossdressers (yes, I still find that funny to write) dress as a stress relief valve or as an outward expression of a part of us we no longer want to hide, but sex is not part of it. That is for the fetish dresser and I have no experience with that. I do realize that you have even less experience. Is this what your husband is showing you?

~Joanne~

11-24-2012, 12:13 PM

I am confused

That's makes two of us, amongst many of us. As crossdressers, some of us are confused as to why we have this desire, or need, to dress or present as women when we know that we are not trying to become a woman. We are confused as to why our choice of clothing is such a big deal when women have unlimited freedom to be who they want, dress as they want, work as they want, say what they want, and act as they want while we are treated as less than human beings and pigeonholed holed into what everyone thinks a man is.

I am confused as to why I have these desires, why I feel as I do, why every time I try to ditch the whole thing, it comes back ten fold. I am confused as to why my SO has had no problems accepting or supporting this what so ever ( though the answer may be because she loves me THAT much that outer appearances do not matter ) I am also confused as to why the greatest scientist and researchers are just as confused as I am about all of it. I am confused as to why they haven't found an answer or made a pill to make millions and "cure" us all.

What really confuses me is to why your here. You seem to be neither accepting nor supportive of your SO and frown down on us, as a community, at every chance you get. This sentence says it in spades:

So does the humble, ordinary CD REALLY feel feminine inside, or do you just say this so that people won't assume you're sex maniacs

I am confused as to why you are trying to lump us all as sex maniacs or make such a bold statement about us in general. Yes, for some, this is a fetish. Nothing wrong with it but it is purely for sexual gratification. For Myself, and others like me, it is not and I am confused as to why it isn't.

I am confused as to how my outlook on life has done a 360 with all of this. I am confused at the inner peace I feel when dressed but the feeling of something missing when I am not. I am confused because transition isn't my goal and I am extremely happy with where things are currently.

I am confused as to why I can't live my life as I see fit without others constantly passing judgement as if they have the sole right or thinking they have the answers when everyone else doesn't.

I am confused too.

Taylor186

11-24-2012, 12:18 PM

Isn't this just another way of asking the unanswerable question, "Why do some men feel the need to crossdress?"

There are plenty of men out there who score high on compassion, helping and nurturing, and have no desire whatsoever to crossdress, and are not considered feminine. On the flip side, I know many natal women who do not score high on those traits and are still considered feminine. A correlation with femininity? Not so much in the 21st century.

GondorRachel

11-24-2012, 12:28 PM

For me personally, I like to think of it is a cosplaying a fictional woman named Rachel. I enjoy wearing costumes, both male and female ones. When cosplayers don a true costume (not for halloween) I think they adopt many of the personality aspects of that character (whatever those may be). It is part performance, part self-expression. Why I do it? I would say that I have a lot of these personality traits and I want a vehicle to amplify those aspects for a while. I don't dress in order to perform (dance monkey dance!), but I end up performing none the less. Wearing women's clothing allows my feminine side to project and many people seem to perceive a woman rather than an effeminate guy (at least my friends pretend to out of politeness). That is where I am now. Did it start out as a sexual thing, yeah, but I get so much more out of it now.

justmetoo

11-24-2012, 12:41 PM

Wouldn't it be more fair to say that all of those traits are simply human, and that both men or women may possess them?

Yes, How are the traits people have mentioned (compassion, etc.) any more or less feminine (or masculine) than certain items of clothing and personal adornment? I think it's more to the point to ask what "femininity" (or "masculinity") is. I'm not sure there is one single "true" answer to that. A lot of it is culturally defined. The cultures most of us live in define femininty/masculinity by certain traits, as well as clothing, activities, etc. But many of the same or very similar traits, clothing, activities, etc., are defined the opposite way in other cultures or times. The better case is when they are defined as suitable for everyone. It would be great if we all (CD's, GG's, etc.) were free to be ourselves and express ourselves as we see fit (barring the harming of others - I'm not talking about the kind of "harm" that others feel because they don't agree with or apporve of our self-expression.)

When it comes down to it we are all (CD's, GG's, etc.) individuals. We are all human beings. And we all fall somewhere along various spectrums. Very little outside of mathematics is strictly binary. Some come close enough to one end or the other of a spectrum to "pass" as fitting the strict binary, but many do not.

Foxglove

11-24-2012, 01:18 PM

Why not surround yourself with feminine energy, do something compassionate, help another person, nurture someone?

Because these traits aren't feminine--they're human. The notion that men aren't compassionate, don't help other people, don't nurture others is just a common prejudice these days. If you take a look at men, it won't be hard to see them doing these things.

E.g., helping other people: firemen, doctors, medical researchers, paramedics, teachers, inventors, rescue teams, mechanics, repairmen, furniture movers, construction workers, computer programmers, architects, engineers, etc., and every man who does "housework"--cutting the grass, doing repairs, maintaining the cars, painting, etc., etc.

You can fill in the rest.

ReineD

11-24-2012, 02:59 PM

Do I try, need or want to be Feminine when I put on some of the "wrong stuff"?

NO. Never in 50 plus years. And no matter how many folks may chime in to say, that's not possible, it won't change anything. It's simply birds and bees 101 for the vast majority of CDers who ARE men.

If most (many?) CDers feel like you do, then I must admit I'm at a loss too, like DM. I'm not disbelieving you, though. I guess I don't understand why, if a CDer does not want to feel feminine, he dresses himself up as femininely as possible, down to the wigs, breast forms, makeup, etc, and then says that women who don't wear skirts and makeup are NOT feminine. Doesn't dressing in a feminine manner make people feel feminine? I think I remember a thread a while back asking members to what degree they dress and very few (if memory serves) said it's just a few items of clothing and nothing else.

And... according to many reports here, there are many other CD sites with an entirely different flavor than this one. Of course I seriously doubt, that most of the men on those other sites have ever felt any shame or guilt but I am also guessing they have zero interest in wearing any female articles of clothing out in public.

I'm curious, what sort of things to they talk about on these other sites? Do the members on those sites wear regular GG clothes or do they wear the sexier variety (lingerie, short skirts, fishnets, stilettos, etc), and do they not wear wigs, makeup, and forms?

AllyCDTV

11-24-2012, 03:32 PM

Why not surround yourself with feminine energy, do something compassionate, help another person, nurture someone? . . .do you just say this so that people won't assume you're sex maniacs, when really you've just got a thing for girly clothing?Compassion, helping another person and nurturing someone sound like human traits to me that have nothing to do with masculinity or femininity. I can only speak for myself regarding being assumed to be a sex maniac but as far as I'm concerned, I don't really give a damn what people who I don't know and don't really care about me, assume about me. For me, it is real simple, I like the way I look when I'm dressed and the feel of a skirt or dress on occasion as oppose to always having to wear pant in my guy mode.

DonniDarkness

11-24-2012, 03:53 PM

Here's my confusion: why do you use clothing to fulfil this urge? Is this not the magazine-model, Barbie doll version of feminine? Why not surround yourself with feminine energy, do something compassionate, help another person, nurture someone? What on earth do painted nails, long hair and flouncy skirts have to do with femininity? I mean, I hear of people 'aligning' their physical appearance to how they feel inside, but really, I find that hard to swallow. Women can feel equally feminine in plumbing pants as they do in flouncy skirts.

Femininity isn't an outfit!

So does the humble, ordinary CD REALLY feel feminine inside, or do you just say this so that people won't assume you're sex maniacs, when really you've just got a thing for girly clothing?

There are quite a few questions here so im going to try and answer them from my experience, understand im not speaking for everyone or trying to pick your post apart.

Your first question: why do you use clothing to fulfil this urge?

The "urge"...I take it you mean this in a non-sexual context. The need comes from having a partial female identity. No matter male we are as CD's there is some level of a female identity there or else we would be using male attire to convey or express our identities/fantasies as such...ie Capt Jack Sparrow....or Neo from the Matrix...

Second question: Is this not the magazine-model, Barbie doll version of feminine?

Yes, we are male. Our perspective of femininity is a visual perspective. Our femme identities reflect this fact. Much in the same way a Drag queens femme identity is a character based on the illusion of stereotypical femininity. We are essentially the same in that manner of speaking, although we identify as male, our femme persona is based on what we visually are attracted(non-sexual context) to. Female Beauty from a male perspective is very powerful to us. To our perspective it holds an empowerment over masculinity.

Third question: Why not surround yourself with feminine energy, do something compassionate, help another person, nurture someone?

We do. Many of us are fathers, loving husbands, and homemakers. Compassion and Nurturing are not solely a female trait, men can be these as well. It is not a stereotypical view of masculinity though. Many of us come here or have support circles geared toward helping others like ourselves.

Fourth question: What on earth do painted nails, long hair and flouncy skirts have to do with femininity?

Its our internal perspective of visual femininity. These objects of clothing or visual symbols of femininity are a way for us to express to others that we feel femme-male internally. Its how we outwardly express our internal identity to others.

Fifth question: So does the humble, ordinary CD REALLY feel feminine inside, or do you just say this so that people won't assume you're sex maniacs, when really you've just got a thing for girly clothing?

I do. I am male, but i do have a soft side to my masculinity that i personally express thru my femme identity. I am also a sexual being, my gender expression and sexuality are quite comfortable with each other. Lots of different aspects of human sexuality are closely tied with visual, emotional, and sensual(touch,feel and smell). The clothing is a way for us to express our gender fluctuation as much as it is a way for us to empower ourselves as sexual beings, no matter which ray of sunshine your sexuality hails from. Personally i find it pleasant to be assumed as a sex maniac, Ive never understood why this was so derogatory. Sexuality is part of humanity. I dont understand the negativity behind the assumption though, so maybe im biased through ignorance.

From me:

Most of us realize that there is much, much more to femininity than just being pretty.
Much in the same way you feel there is much more to being masculine than just being hairy and muscle bound. Crossdressing is just a way for men to convey their internal/mental identities in the middle ground of the gender binary.

Great questions DM,
-Donni-

Eryn

11-24-2012, 04:14 PM

I think that a lot of the attraction to feminine clothing and makeup is the fact that they are totally denied to males. You say that they have nothing to do with your personal sense of femininity but that does not mean that they mean nothing to other GGs. Makeup and nail polish are a pain to apply and to keep looking nice, yet a lot of GGs voluntarily wear them for some reason.

Now, as for myself, I really have no idea of what femininity is. I don't even know what masculinity is! I do admire the female ability to express themselves freely and the most obvious manifestation of that is through clothing and makeup. As I move about more en femme I'm learning that there is a lot more to feminine expression than the obvious and I'm enjoying the learning experience. Women interact in more varied and open ways and at a deeper level than men do. The "Marlboro Man" demeanor that men are supposed to maintain is a prison of both expression and social intimacy with others. I've been given a parole from that prison and I intend to make the most of it.

Tara D. Rose

11-24-2012, 04:55 PM

...Anyway, I read alot here about the "urge" to dress and feel feminine.
Yes, some of us do get the urge to dress in women's clothes.

...Here's my confusion: why do you use clothing to fulfil this urge? ....
This question creates an oxymoron from the previous sentence. It's like saying our knee itches so we scratch it, then why do we scratch our knee when it itches? You say "you can feel equally feminine in plumbing pants as they do in flouncy skirts".
But, if you were a F to M CD, and had a desire to feel masculine, would you feel masculine in a dress and heels?

I've been thinking about this since my first reply... isn't to say that compassion, nurturing, sensitivity, etc. are feminine traits just a bit chauvinistic? You know, women = housewives = mothers = nurturing, sensitive, great at decorating, and so forth? Meanwhile, men are not supposed to be any of those things, and when they are, they often find themselves taking a jape or two from other men for their supposed weakness.

Meanwhile, I think about the men I know, and if I'm fair - plenty of them have some or more of these ostensibly feminine characteristics. Yet, I doubt that too many of them share my love for slingback pumps. So why do women have a monopoly on this set of traits? And in all actuality, if you're honest about it - you have to admit that some women are very much lacking in terms of these qualities.

Wouldn't it be more fair to say that all of those traits are simply human, and that both men or women may possess them?
Amen to all that you have said here. It's really time for totally equality across the board.

Because these traits aren't feminine--they're human. The notion that men aren't compassionate, don't help other people, don't nurture others is just a common prejudice these days. If you take a look at men, it won't be hard to see them doing these things.

E.g., helping other people: firemen, doctors, medical researchers, paramedics, teachers, inventors, rescue teams, mechanics, repairmen, furniture movers, construction workers, computer programmers, architects, engineers, etc., and every man who does "housework"--cutting the grass, doing repairs, maintaining the cars, painting, etc., etc.

You can fill in the rest.
You have also hit the nail on the head. Why does it seem like there is a monopoly on certain traits claimed by one gender or the other? Right now, my imagination is running wild and into overload, like John Lennon's song Imagine. Imagine a society, where ALL traits, emotions, clothes, and activities become no longer those of masculinity or femininity, then masculinity and femininity will then become nonexistent and obsolete.

Though that will never happen, it would be such a sad world that way, for I feel that masculinity and femininity do complement each other and has balance. For all genders to equally share all traits may sound good for all people, but somewhere along the line we have to stop the breaking down of masculinity and femininity, for it may sound like a positive thing and good for a while, but you can have only so much positive and good until it becomes negative and bad. But in reality and in the real world, there are some things that will always be feminine and masculine and I like that. But feelings, emotions, sensitiveness, compassion, caring, etc, belong to humans regardless of gender.

Soriya

11-25-2012, 03:31 AM

Why do you use clothing to fulfil this urge?
Why not surround yourself with feminine energy, do something compassionate, help another person, nurture someone?
What on earth do painted nails, long hair and flouncy skirts have to do with femininity?
Women can feel equally feminine in plumbing pants as they do in flouncy skirts.
Femininity isn't an outfit!
So does the humble, ordinary CD REALLY feel feminine inside,

Hi DM.

I love the questions you ask and quoted the direct questions you asked so I can share my experience and discovery of myself as to why this was the case for 'me'.

Why not surround yourself with feminine energy, do something compassionate, help another person, nurture someone? : Excellent questions. For me, these attributes are natural to me however by expressing those natural emotions that are part of me led to mass amounts of pain through my teenage years. I was bullied very badly because of 'being myself' with these emotions. I was taught by others that these emotions are 'female' and not found in males. Men don't cry, feel empathy, compassion, and so forth in this manner (this is what I believed because of what others said). I subconsciously associated core elements of my personality as 'female' based off what I learned from other people.

What on earth do painted nails, long hair and flouncy skirts have to do with femininity?: For me, it had everything to do with it. Because I subconsciously believed cores pieces of my personality were 'feminine' and because I was inadvertently introduced to 'feminine' clothing at a much younger age well before my belief of my emotions were 'feminine', I subconsciously turned to cross-dressing to feel my natural emotions I believed to be female.

Why do you use clothing to fulfill this urge? : CD'ing was an 'urge' to me because I spent most of my life since my teens trying to suppress the elements of my personality I believed to be 'female'. The longer the gap between dressing, the stronger the 'urge' was for me to CD so I could feel those core elements of my personality I was trying to suppress. Trying to suppress a natural part of oneself is futile. It can't be done IMO and will manifest itself in some other way. For me that was CD'ing because of all the above I have typed. This is why I went through the 'purging' episodes to only go back years later due to the massive 'Urges'. It was never CD'ing I was trying to purge, it was those perceived 'feminine' elements of my personality. On the outside it looked like the typical purging to only go back cycle just about every CD has experienced.

Women can feel equally feminine in plumbing pants as they do in flouncy skirts: I love this point. With the 'ordinary' CD as you described, why is the ratio of MtF CD's so much larger then say FtM CD's? The forums here depict this. The FtM CD section has very few female CD's compared to the masses of male CD's. I personally feel the actual ratio in the world is around 50/50. In general, just about any GG can 'dress down' so to speak with no makeup, hair back or even cut short, jeans, work boots, whatever and largely go unnoticed in society. Perhaps women who have more 'manly' emotions don't face as much pressure as men who have 'feminine' emotions that society teaches as 'feminine'. Ordinary women like this don't have to hide, they can walk out into society and generally be accepted without a second thought no matter how they dress.

Just some food for thought for you. Hope it helps in some way. :)

LunaDarling

11-25-2012, 06:17 AM

first off assuming that cding has anything to do with being a sex maniac is retarded. so is assuming that just because we want to feel feminine by wearing womans clothes means that we dont also practice feminine actions or embrace feminine energy. girls dont have to wear girly clothes, but they do, because they like it. for some reason they are just naturally attracted to it. same for us! has nothing to do with sex. not for me anyways. i didnt choose to feel this way, nor did i develop these urges. feeling feminine in plumber pants probably comes really easy to women, because you are a woman. shit, i can feel masculine in a dress, cus im a dude!

Moxie

11-25-2012, 06:43 AM

Hi all. Thanks for the response!

Anyway, I still have much to read through but I thought I'd better clarify something quickly now as what I wrote obviously read wrong.

I wasn't calling or suggesting anyone was a sex maniac. In fact, it was meant to suggest that the average CDer might say he 'felt feminine' to AVOID being called a sex maniac because you're NOT that, yet Joe Public sees a man in a dress and immediately thinks he's kinky. I was actually trying to figure out whether some of you (like my husband) said you felt feminine to avoid the sex comments because that's not what it's about, yet it's also not about femininity; it's just about the clothes.

But I can see how that might read wrong, and I'm sorry.

Moxie

11-25-2012, 07:02 AM

susan54

11-25-2012, 07:21 AM

This is an interesting slant on a recurrent theme. I am a cross-dresser, and get no sexual kick out of it. I do get a 'buzz' from it, and going out and ACTING as a woman and getting feedback, though the buzz declines with familiarity. Lots of people get a buzz from acting, it is just that my stage is different. Though I love being praised for my womanly walk or my outfit or being called "she" that is feedback on my acting skills and my taste in clothing - at no point do I imagine I am a woman.

My clothes are womanly, elegant, and sometimes expensive. I have had my colours and style done, so that I do this as well as I possibly can. Everyone who likes clothes wants to look as good as possible in them. I don't like pink or frills, or Kath Kitson prints.

Some women almost lust after certain clothes. Are they sexually motivated? Perhaps the wide choice of styles and fabric in womenswear has an attraction that is gender independent. At home I don't wear a wig (ever) and my only make up is a very rare application of lipstick - because I quite like th feel of it on my lips. I always wear a bra and forms with the clothes (and the clothes are never trousers) which is more difficult to explain to myself. Yes, it makes the clothes look better because they were made for this shape, but I admit I like the feel of a bra and boobs.

If I could wear all the clothes (without the bra and forms) as a man, get feedback on how I look,and have my skirt blow in the wind and hear my heels clicking on the pavement, that would go at least 95% of the way to meeting my needs. I would not have to walk like a woman or wear a wig, but neither would I swagger like I do in a kilt - clothes alter the way you move - women often walk more elegantly in a skirt than trousers.

It is not about being feminine. It is about the clothes and looking good in them. Women tell me I look better in skirts and dresses (even as a man) than I do in menswear - maybe some people are a better shape for skirts and dresses, irrespective of gender? Again, this is about clothes more than gender.

When I go out (more and more rarely now) I wear make up and a wig, and behave (and speak) in a womanly way that seems to work. It is interesting to be in this place, but I am just a gender tourist. I love dressing like the locals, smelling like them, acting like them, and love to be taken for one. But I never want to move there permanently or become a citizen.

Women's clothes are FUN. Fun to put together an outfit, and fun to wear. Maybe it is as simple as that.

Moxie

11-25-2012, 07:36 AM

Women's clothes are FUN. Fun to put together an outfit, and fun to wear. Maybe it is as simple as that.

You know, I think this is what I don't read much about here but what my H alwsys says. "it's fun!"

So you really can CD without feeling feminine which means it's not ALWAYS some big deep and meaningful experience and can just be about the clothes.

I still don't get those who do feel feminine yet dress like women. I guess a part of me feels sad that men can't just be who they are without a costume.

Wildaboutheels

11-25-2012, 07:44 AM

Fluffy, I have a sneaky suspicion... and I could be wrong that you and probably MANY other "non accepting" SOs might just maybe have less trouble accepting the CDing behavior if it was ONLY clothes? No forms, nail polish, wigs, makeup, etc. And I do realize you can only answer for yourself as can any other female who wishes to take issue here. You have probably witnessed a common theme at these Forums... "we all have", "we all will", "all Cders will eventually". Amazing that people on such a website as this would make such proclmations over and over. I'm quite sure it makes some folks feel better but it is simply not true any more than "all females love to shop".

It's clear that many/most of the men who have responded here "feel feminine" just from the clothes alone but of course most add many of the other female VISUAL traits. The PRESENTATION that most women use to make themselves more attractive because women must be "attractive" to better compete for men. You'll notice women who already have a guy or partner spend far less time on being "attractive". Why waste all that time and energy if one is no longer competing?

And therein lays the key to the matter the VISUAL - the key to this or the glue that binds. This very site, the most popular topics, the ratio of men CDers to women CDers... all undenaible CONFIRMATION of this.

I'll bet that there are few if any blind CDers. Men's vision has an uncontrollable power or grip on many men's lives. Just look at some of the "brilliant" and or powerful men who have succumbed to a pretty face. Men generally think with their small head because of their vision.

Men cannot help their weakness to their vision anymore than women can help wanting to find a "successful" man. It's Humanity's most basic programming and it has worked well for tens of thousands of years... so it is not liable to change anytime soon.

Moxie

11-25-2012, 08:09 AM

Foxglove

11-25-2012, 09:09 AM

I still don't get those who do feel feminine yet dress like women. I guess a part of me feels sad that men can't just be who they are without a costume.

Speaking purely for myself here, DM, it's because I'm not a man. Never was, although I pretended to be for a long time. I'm trans--and that's something different altogether. People get used to thinking that there's men and women and nobody else. That's wrong. There's more than two choices. There's us.

Why can't I just be who I am? That's what I'm doing these days. I wish I'd been doing it all my life. It's very hard for a cisperson to make this conceptual leap: there's more than two choices in this world. As long as you continue to think of transpeople as just messed-up men or messed-up women, you won't come close to understanding us.

If you're interested in knowing why we want to be what we are, I've just started a thread called, "Why It's Beautiful To Be Trans". Maybe that will tell you something.

Best wishes, Annabelle

Ineke Vashon

11-25-2012, 09:46 AM

Ressie

11-25-2012, 10:19 AM

Second quick reply, and food for thought for those who answered...

A few here picked up on the cliche feminine traits I wrote and honestly, if I hadn't been (still am!) so confused I'd have cringed too! Yes, anyone can be compassionate, nurturing etc and many men are. I just needed to make an obvious point for my question.

But, given all that, I am still confused: Why not just be feminine men? If women alone don't represent femininity, then why bother looking like one at all, if you are NOT a woman inside. Why not help the movement to allow men more freedom of expression by actually looking like men?

Surely, emulating women as though we DO own the right to femininity is in fact taking men's rights backwards??

I don't know about all crossdressers, but I'm not a feminine man. Cross dressing is all about dressing. There are different reasons why men cross dress. For me it's mostly a sexual rush. The feel as well as the look of women's clothing and accessories excites me. I also admire GGs that dress in feminine clothing, wear fem hairstyles etc. I believe there are things from my childhood that did this to me. I enjoy it too much to look for a way to stop.

I really don't have the desire to dress 24/7. I don't want to feel feminine or emulate women all the time. I dress a couple times a week for periods of a couple of hours. After that it's back to men's clothing, because I present to everyone as a man.

I'm assuming that you're really confused with your SO's reason to cross dress. Crossdressing covers a wide spectrum from wearing pantyhose once a year to dressing completely 24/7. But being a feminine man without dressing isn't crossdressing. Some of the answers in this thread may apply to your SO, but maybe not.

justmetoo

11-25-2012, 11:23 AM

Hi DM,
Thanks for your clarifications and for trying to understand.
Fun is a big part of it for me. Playing dressup. The fun doesn't include just the clothes, but also the makeup, wigs, breastforms, etc. Trying to look as good as I can with the whole package. Why should makeup be restricted to GG's? Or certain hairstyles (I use wigs because my own hair is deserting me)? Sometimes it's just fun to get all dolled up and looking pretty, even to the point of looking like a woman. I don't see anything wrong with that.
As for wearing just the clothes, or maybe mixing and matching like women do, on a more regular basis, I would do that in addition to full-on dressing, if I had the courage to go out in public like that. As it is, I do do that at home most evenings and weekends. I'm a very shy and attention-averse person. If I dress fully I can either "fly under the radar" for some (most? I can at least tell myself that) people and/or give them the excuse to "suspend disbelief" and pretend I am what I appear to be. At the very least I can pretend they don't take much notice of me. A lot of pretensions, eh? :lol:
It's also a way of expressing part of who I am that I have to keep hidden away most of the time (or at least that I feel I have to keep hidden; Lately I've become more open with a good few people). But even if I were totally open about this part of me I'm sure I would still have a desire to dress, even to dress "fully". To me that's about freedom of expression. The alternatives are supression (of one's self) and oppression (imposed on one's self by others). Both of those can lead to depression. This is an essential part of who I am, of what makes me me.

I don't know if any of the above helps? Best wishes to you and to your husband! I hope you can reach some level of understanding and be there for each other! :)

Jenniferathome

11-25-2012, 11:57 AM

But, given all that, I am still confused: Why not just be feminine men? If women alone don't represent femininity, then why bother looking like one at all, if you are NOT a woman inside. Why not help the movement to allow men more freedom of expression by actually looking like men.

Hi DM, you are looking for an answer that will never come. As you know, I am a straight, married crossdresser. I am not a woman on the inside. I am a man when in guy mode and I am a man when in girl mode. For a reason no one here will ever be able to explain, I enjoy presenting as a woman sometimes. I firmly believe itis in my genes and in the genes of all crossdressers. It "is" and it is a mystery that will still be confusing when one day the genes is discovered. I do find it interesting that most people can accept a transsexual as long as they are headed toward transition. But it wasn't always that way. Crossdressing is not only about the clothes. It is also about the feeling. It is a package.

Soriya

11-25-2012, 12:18 PM

I still don't get those who do feel feminine yet dress like women. I guess a part of me feels sad that men can't just be who they are without a costume.

I agree 100% as this was the case for me. As I mentioned in my last post in this thread. It's what I subconsciously ran to so I could get back in touch with emotions that are natural to me but believed were bad because I thought only girls had them. It was a huge mind game on myself and I needed to put that 'mask' on to feel it.

I got to thinking last night after my last post and thought of something regarding people not being able to just be themselves and have to wear a mask. Most people do this in some way or form by trying to 'fit' into what society says things should be. Check this out regarding me and a good friend of mine I have known since a year old.

Strip away the fact I am male and she is female. Strip away all that society says men and women should be. Looking at the two of us growing up without any of that, it could be considered and was often said her and I were like twins in our personality. We always were and are 'best friends' to this day and as kids we liked all the same things but overall, she was called the 'Tom Boy'.

Her: Liked and played sports with all the kids, even loved tackle football! She was the only girl in the group of kids we grew up in and did everything typical 'boys' do. Teenage years her body matured in a 'non-femine' way. She tended to be heavier and add in the fact she didn't like makeup and didn't dress feminine in high school led to countless amounts of abuse. being simply a 'tomboy' led to kids calling her butch and even a man even though her face or body had no male characteristics. I even heard family members say they thought she was gay. She wasn't and liked boys just as much as any straight girl. Add in she never had a boyfriend until her early 20's fueled that speculation from society.

Me. In my teens my body matured much slower then the average person and always looked younger then the rest. I was always one of the shortest kids in my grade which led me to endure countless amount of abuse. I was called gay, a sissy, a girl, and didn't have a GF until my early 20's. I liked girls just as much as the straight boy does but never had the confidence to approach one because of all the bullying which fueled the speculation of others that I was a closet homosexual. My own mother even admitted she wondered at times if I was in my teens!

For both her and I it all led to us trying to 'fit' into societies version of what men and women are supposed to be like thus wearing a 'mask'. Perhaps in her case, she didn't have to use CD'ing in secret to be comfortable with her 'male' defined emotions because wearing jeans, t-shirts, and no makeup is so common out and about. In my case with using CD'ing as a way to be comfortable with my perceived 'female' emotions, it had to be done in secret because of the amount of abuse I would have taken otherwise. Mind you, I never wanted to go past the secrecy of it, I was fine dressing as men do.

The paradox for me was I was wearing a mask as a man by suppressing certain emotions then putting on another mask in secrecy to feel those emotions which was only suppressing the 'male' emotions. I was switching from mask to mask and never being just me.

Imagine how mentally exhausting that is.

TxKimberly

11-25-2012, 12:30 PM

Violetgray

11-25-2012, 02:15 PM

MelanieB

11-25-2012, 03:38 PM

Hi DM, you are looking for an answer that will never come. As you know, I am a straight, married crossdresser. I am not a woman on the inside. I am a man when in guy mode and I am a man when in girl mode. For a reason no one here will ever be able to explain, I enjoy presenting as a woman sometimes. I firmly believe itis in my genes and in the genes of all crossdressers. It "is" and it is a mystery that will still be confusing when one day the genes is discovered. I do find it interesting that most people can accept a transsexual as long as they are headed toward transition. But it wasn't always that way. Crossdressing is not only about the clothes. It is also about the feeling. It is a package.

Hi DM. My first memories of my crossdressing start from around the age of 5 or 6 years old.
Many children in this age group play dress up as cowboys, soldiers doctors nurses astronauts or whatever. Just about all of these children grow up and grow out of these dressing up games as new interests arise and are presented to them.
For my part I never at any stage thought I was "playing" dress up in any of of these ways, my desire to wear female clothing, in my case my mothers to start with, was something else......there was simply a desire to do so.... Something drew me to it!!

Anyway I have now been doing this strange thing for 50 plus years and still haven't grown out of it. I honestly don't think it is just about the clothes...not sure if its about feeling feminine (whatever that would feel like)......I just simply have never felt the need to question it or look for answers to something that has clearly been a part of me all of my life and probably always will be!!

I've always been a compassionate nurturing animal loving softie at heart and so these are not qualities I need to seek out through dressing feminine, however, when I am dressed I do find some of the aggressive side of my drab male mode that I carry around on a daily basis does waft away into the ether somehow leaving me feeling a much more relaxed character that I actually prefer to be.

As Jennifer says I think its in my genes and is here to stay.

Soriya

11-25-2012, 03:47 PM

Well, the way I figure it, you're making a serious mistake - you are trying to apply logic to something that has nothing what-so-ever to do with logic and reason.

To put things into perspective, and perhaps to give my post some credibility, I will tell you that I am an engineer by trade, and for more than 30 years I have made a living by being able to apply logic as needed to troubleshoot and repair complex systems. Even with that back ground and training, I'm going to tell you that this has nothing to do with logic, and you will drive yourself absolutely bat-shit crazy trying to force it to fit.

This just is what it is, and it really aint all that complicated. Most of us like pretty clothes, and most of us like to 'be" as pretty as we can. It makes us feel happy. Whether you are speaking of a TS who perhaps feels a bit more complete when seeing her outside so clearly and unambiguously matching her inside, or a CD who simply feels happier when pretty. It just is, and it needs no logical explanation, nor does it provide one - even to those of us that share the "affliction".

Don't waste your time and energy looking for the logic in it, because there isn't any. The only real question at this point is, can you accept it? Understanding it or not, having a clue why we do it or not, can you accept it?

Kimberly,

I absolutely mean no disrespect but, your engineering background with complex systems is easy IMO to apply logic too when you have the training to do so. These systems as complex as they may be are all 'black and white' in how they should work. There is no 'emotion' to them. Being a computer technician for many years now, the logic you mention is the same as all 'emotionless' systems'. They are built with specific ways they need to function. Understanding how they are supposed to work makes it a lot easier to apply logic to troubleshoot them when something goes wrong. The first step in troubleshooting these systems is to go back to when the last time it worked correctly and what occurred at the time so logic can be applied in figuring out what caused it to malfunction.

The same logic can be applied to any issue a human experiences. Same troubleshooting steps with starting when was the last time 'it worked' and what occurred around the time the issue started. What makes it far for more complex they any mechanical, man made system is the emotional factor involved thus making it far more difficult to figure out.

IMO the human mind is the most complex system of all. There is a reason for everything. Even if 'it just is' is correct, there is still a reason why it 'just is'.

BTW, I am not saying CD'ing itself is a problem or issue, just paraphrasing to compare to mechanical systems. :)

Violetgray

11-25-2012, 03:56 PM

Kimberly,

I absolutely mean no disrespect but, your engineering background with complex systems is easy IMO to apply logic too when you have the training to do so. These systems as complex as they may be are all 'black and white' in how they should work. There is no 'emotion' to them. Being a computer technician for many years now, the logic you mention is the same as all 'emotionless' systems'. They are built with specific ways they need to function. Understanding how they are supposed to work makes it a lot easier to apply logic to troubleshoot them when something goes wrong. The first step in troubleshooting these systems is to go back to when the last time it worked correctly and what occurred at the time so logic can be applied in figuring out what caused it to malfunction.

The same logic can be applied to any issue a human experiences. Same troubleshooting steps with starting when was the last time 'it worked' and what occurred around the time the issue started. What makes it far for more complex they any mechanical, man made system is the emotional factor involved thus making it far more difficult to figure out.

IMO the human mind is the most complex system of all. There is a reason for everything. Even if 'it just is' is correct, there is still a reason why it 'just is'.

BTW, I am not saying CD'ing itself is a problem or issue, just paraphrasing to compare to mechanical systems. :)

While yes, there are sciences of the mind just as there are sciences of the world around us, I would not say that this is one of them. There are not a lot of variables to cd'ing, just "Does this make me feel good? (yes/no)" I would compare this to trying to reason out why someone who likes the taste of chocolate can't just stop liking the taste of chocolate.

StacyC

11-25-2012, 04:05 PM

Why do I like vanilla ice cream?

I just do. And when I am craving vanilla ice cream, chocolate or mint just won't do it for me.

Simple as that.

Fiona K

11-25-2012, 04:07 PM

Leaving aside the unintentional misogyny, I think the gender binary in which most here have been raised has a lot to answer for.

Compassionate men exist, just as cold, unempathetic women do.... with all points in between.
And it's my firm belief that any CD/TV is trans, maybe not in the same place on the spectrum as TS people but never the less still a transgender person.

Given this; most, in my experience are not driven by sexuality, though some are. Our femininity may only manifest itself when dressed, or not. For some the clothes are enough but for many the full package, including attempting (though not necessarily succeeding) to pass is very important. Still others want to go clubbing or just to a museum or the favourite of many, shopping.

The drivers are as varied as the individuals, we can't be easily pushed into one box or another.

The questions for any SO are understandable, my wife has asked them too. Even stating once that if the clothes were all it was then she'd accept it as just fetish. The seriousness with which many of us treat who and what we are disabused her of that notion.

There is little or no logic, even less real research and a hell of a lot of societal baggage that colours attitudes to us. Someday it may change but not anytime soon.

TxKimberly

11-25-2012, 04:33 PM

I absolutely mean no disrespect but. . . .

Not sure why you started your post off with that since I think we are agreeing? That was my whole point in talking about the engineering systems - logic applies to these. Logic does not really apply to the situation of most of us though - logic has little or nothing to do with being transgender, be it cross dresser or transsexual, or somewhere in the middle.

PS - You never had to worry about offending me, because about the only thing that offends me is someone intentionally setting out to offend me. LOL

PPS - Do you have any idea how many people just dont get the "go back to when the last time it worked correctly and what occurred at the time so logic can be applied in figuring out what caused it to malfunction" concept, and this includes some of my co-workers?! On several service calls I will ask a customer "Did you do anything to the machine between the time that it worked and the time that it failed?" Then they tell me "Yes, I took this apart to do PM?" Invariable I go that part and find it unplugged or not put back together right. Why they didn't think to check this before they paid me a fortune to come out, I'll never know . . .

Eryn

11-25-2012, 04:42 PM

On several service calls I will ask a customer "Did you do anything to the machine between the time that it worked and the time that it failed?" Then they tell me "Yes, I took this apart to do PM?" Invariable I go that part and find it unplugged or not put back together right. Why they didn't think to check this before they paid me a fortune to come out, I'll never know . . .

This part brought back memories of a place where I worked where the engineers were forbidden to touch any part of the xerox machine except for the operating controls. If it jammed we had to get a secretary or clerk to fix it. Seems that if they let the engineers open the machine they'd end up with the machine disassembled and an even larger repair bill!

Now, as far as CDing goes, my engineering logic just can't grasp it. There's no discernable pattern or functional procedure to get hold of so I just set that part of my personality aside and let the rest of me enjoy myself.

sometimes_miss

11-25-2012, 04:48 PM

Femininity isn't an outfit!
No, it isn't. But dressing in stereotypically female clothing helps me feel like the girl I thought I was supposed to be. I don't feel 'right' when I'm dressed as a guy. It simply feels like the wrong outfit. Best analagy is this: Pretend you're at a formal function. Everyone else is dressed in tuxedos and evening gowns. But you're in a bathing suit. Even if it's a gender appropriate bathing suit, you're just going to feel somewhat uncomfortable. That's how I feel when dressed as a guy. It just doesn't feel right. It feels like a costume, like I'm pretending to be something I'm not. Exactly the opposite of how a normal male feels, a normal male would feel out of place if dressed entirely in female attire. Does that help explain why I'm almost always dressed as a girl?

Angela Campbell

11-25-2012, 05:00 PM

Now, as far as CDing goes, my engineering logic just can't grasp it. There's no discernable pattern or functional procedure to get hold of so I just set that part of my personality aside and let the rest of me enjoy myself.

You just haven't disassembled it far enough yet! I too am an engineer.

Soriya

11-25-2012, 05:30 PM

Not sure why you started your post off with that since I think we are agreeing?
logic has little or nothing to do with being transgender, be it cross dresser or transsexual, or somewhere in the middle.
PPS - Do you have any idea how many people just dont get the "go back to when the last time it worked correctly and what occurred at the time so logic can be applied in figuring out what caused it to malfunction" concept, and this includes some of my co-workers?!

Hiya Kim!

I started my reply that way because it's way to easy for people to get the wrong idea when reading just words. How often do we see that with email in the corporate world? LOL. It was simply a courtesy jesture since I don't know you. :)

I agree logic itself has nothing to do with TS, TG, CD, or anything. I was referring to how the same principles of using logic like we do with troubleshooting things does work with anything. In the case of a TS for example. All the mental work they have to put in before they can transition is by using logic. Is there a logical explanation of why they feel they are born as the wrong sex. Yes! It's just not 'scientifically' defined yet. Recent studies are pointing to the makeup of chromosomes and certain brain configurations in a TS but nothing is conclusive. We live in a society that defines things by fact, facts that can be 'physically' explained. If there isn't any hard data, it's left largely to debate.

I believe the same for CD'ing. I never knew why I did it and being I have always been one who wants to why something is what it is, it drove me 'bat-shit crazy' as you call it. I went back into my past for everything to find out why I react to certain situations like I did that made no sense. Someone would say something or act a certain way that would cause me to get upset, angry, whatever. The question was why do I get upset or angry of something so insignificant. By going back through my life with a clear open mind, I could see where those reactions came from, always from a single event early on in life. So as I got older, any situation that resembled that first even would automatically trigger me to react in an irrational way. By not understanding the entire situation, which I don't think most young children can do, my belief system was built purely off my feelings as a kid.

The more I looked at all the negative situations this way and learned all sides of the story, I stopped acting irrational to current situations for no apparent reason. Let's just call it a non-engineering logic. I then used that 'non-engineering' logic I used with all the other events of my life and went back and figured out why I started CD'ing. It took a lot of work and time to get through but was well worth the effort. I have no questions anymore why I CD'd or where it came from.

Because there is no statical data I can apply to what I did to figure it out, some may say I just found a convenient way to be OK with it all. That's OK if someone else thinks that, it worked for 'me' and that's what matters. :)

Oh and don't I know it in the I.T. world. We could share 'End User' stories all day long and laugh our asses off!

LunaDarling

11-25-2012, 06:48 PM

You know, I think this is what I don't read much about here but what my H alwsys says. "it's fun!"

So you really can CD without feeling feminine which means it's not ALWAYS some big deep and meaningful experience and can just be about the clothes.

I still don't get those who do feel feminine yet dress like women. I guess a part of me feels sad that men can't just be who they are without a costume.

what makes a man in feminine clothes a costume? why should females own the rights to these specific styles of clothes? human gender standards are entirely co-created and hold only as much meaning as you give them. many cultures have no qualms with CDing and are very supportive of those choices. these reactions are completely mentally based and formed on the foundations of other priorities and preconceived notions. femininity has nothing to do with clothes, as masculinity has nothing to do with aggression. yes these are present in our gender culture, but they very easily could not be. femininity is to feel, nurture, support, encourage. masculinity is to do, protect, provide, solve. i believe that i can encompass all these traits because they dont have to be restricted to gender. individuals are the ones that decide to reject the other genders more default feelings as foreign or unnatural, when in reality, we are all humans who think and feel and act almost identically. its our fear that divides us. you dont have to understand someone or agree with them to accept them, or love them, or care for them. sorry if a came across harsh at all. its kinda an important topic to me... :)

Fiona K

11-26-2012, 03:28 PM

Another thought, for the point of view of a wife I advise reading "My Husband Betty" by Helen Boyd. The answers aren't complete but you will get some insight from Helen's work.

ReineD

11-26-2012, 03:57 PM

So you really can CD without feeling feminine which means it's not ALWAYS some big deep and meaningful experience and can just be about the clothes.

Yes, it can be fun but I think it is deeper than just liking the clothes.

When I first asked my SO "Why?", he told me it is as difficult as explaining why I might prefer butterscotch pie over apple pie, since how does one explain a preference for the way some foods trigger your taste buds.

So, maybe a better question than "Why" might be, "What do you get out of it, exactly?"

A lot of people in this thread have said, "It's just fun! It's an art form, I'm on stage, I enjoy the clothes, it's relaxing, etc".

To compare this to my love of butterscotch pie, I love eating it too ... but the difference is that I don't crave it. I don't need to eat it every week. Despite the fact that it is one of my favorite deserts, I do not eat it unless I happen to see it on a restaurant menu and even then, if I'm no longer hungry after my meal I will not order it. This is not what CDers do. CDers actively seek to crossdress on a regular basis, despite the potential negative outcomes that result from doing this in a society that does not accept the CDing easily, and even despite wives who are sorely against this. And if they do not crossdress, it affects their moods whether they become resentful or depressed.

So. There is a substantial payload other than "It's just fun, relaxing, I enjoy the clothes".

And since women's things are a great deal more feminine than men's things, it's not a stretch to say that the lure of being feminine (in comparison to guy mode) is powerful indeed, whether the roots all those years ago were sexual or not. This then begs the question as to WHY. Why is the lure of appearing feminine (compared to the guy self) so damn powerful, as to risk being found out and risk unhappiness in the marriage?

People can call it what they will, being "trans" or "not trans", "TG" or not "TG", "fetish" or "not fetish", whatever, it doesn't matter. But, the need to present in a feminine manner is deep indeed and it is complex, even if a person has no wish to ever transition.

JenniferMBlack

11-26-2012, 04:27 PM

I can't answer this because it is all about the clothes for me.

susan54

11-26-2012, 05:08 PM

Ha. ReineD does it again.

Firstly, her food analogy. Some people are addicted to chocolate or ice cream. Sometimes they just HAVE to have it. Usually these people are women.

Reine has not replied to my point that the clothes have an attraction in their own right, and there are a lot of women who have an uncontrollable urge to wear certain women's clothes. Some (but only some) cross-dressers feel the same way about them. Maybe it isn't that they are women's clothes, but that they are lovely CLOTHES. I feel I can look good in them without the make-up, wig or boobs, but admit I prefer to have the boobs (I only use the other twop to blend in when I go out in a skirt or dress). Sheer tights look better without leg hair, sleeveless tops or dresses look better without armpit hair. I admit I like to wear perfume, but again this smells nice in its own right. So you can take the clothes a very long way as a man without having to adopt anything that is genuinely feminine.

The first women to wear trousers had to endure abuse about dressing as men. No one sane would make that allegation now. I remain confident that 95% of my desire/need/obsession with womenswear is not actually gender related - it is a desire for stuff that is lovely to wear in its own right. Reine would have to admit that silky fabrics are lovely against the skin, heels make legs (whatever gender) look better, cotton dresses are cool in summer, and so on. Agreed, the bra and boobs are difficult - I am working in that one!

When I get home I like to have a shower and change into skirt or dress. I now spend so much time in these clothes I have forgotten what it is like to have an overpowering NEED to do so - now I am doing it because I can, and the thought of being in a skirt after work is pleasant partly because I am no longer at work. It is thus becoming hard to separate the skirt wearing from LIFE. No one else is affected by this, and my lifestyle involves a lot of solitary time anyway, so I might as well spend this in clothes I find nice to wear. There are lots of things I do that are great that do not involve being dressed in anything thought of as feminine, and these are so good that they distract me completely from thoughts of how much more nicely I could be dressed.

I am not only entirely heterosexual, but I love the company of women. I am masculine but not macho, and I am self-confident as a man (or out in public acting as a woman), and I m successful in my career. I love being male and would never want to become a woman - unless I could do so for a week or so as an experiment.

It is interesting to debate these issues but DM should realise that there are many, many different reasons why some men wear women's clothes. Those who claim it is just a stage on a journey to a gender re-assignment, or those who assert that to do this properly you HAVE to wear women's trousers sometimes are not speaking for us. Let us all do our own thing without telling us what to do and rejoice in our own differences as well as those between the genders.

So - acting is fun, and the more the part differs from you, the greater the fun. And clothes have an attraction independent of the gender they are usually assigned to. Two facets of a many-sided issue.

Jamie_CD

11-26-2012, 06:12 PM

Glad to know I'm not the only quant trying, unsuccessfully, to apply logic to this :)

For what it's worth, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the visual definition of femininity as described by DM was largely created by men - one could argue that we are simply trying to embrace femininity as we have been conditioned to view it.

NicoleScott

11-26-2012, 06:47 PM

I sure don't know why I am like this - maybe something clicked in my brain as a child. But from an early age (4 or 5) I was drawn to pretty women and what they wore. The best way I can explain it (for me) is that for those things that visually distinguish women from men are things I like, and the more they are exaggerated, the more "feminine" I considered it. Women had pretty, long hair. Women wore makeup, with accentuated eyes and lips. Women wore skirts and dresses, showing their legs, with assistance from high heels. etc etc etc Throughout the years I discovered that the more exaggerated the look, the more exciting it was for me. The highest heels, shortest skirts, heaviest makeup, monster eyelashes, dark red lips, long painted nails, everything over-the-top. That's how I transform when I do. I'm just a guy that likes to dressup occasionally (more in the past than now, due to changes in opportunity) and while I kind of "feel feminine" when I make up and dress, I know that it's just fantasy and don't really have a feminine internal identity. Quite the opposite, I think. It's the guy in me that likes to see that girl in the mirror. He likes how she looks, and she makes up and dresses to please him.
Sometimes it is just about the clothes.

Amy Fakley

11-26-2012, 06:58 PM

this is a simply amazing thread.

the question stumped me for a minute ... I can honestly say this is one of the few questions I've seen asked that I literally never thought through before (and I've done waaay too much thinking on the matter). Why do we associate clothing and appearance so strongly with the essence of femininity, especially when it's really obvious that physical appearance is so often divorced from who we are on the inside?

I think this is the best quote I've seen so far in this thread:

I think that perhaps you are making this more complicated than it is. All people want to feel attractive. For some men, that means being able to look into a mirror and seeing someone pretty staring back at them. Have you ever felt beautiful, or even sexy? It's a great feeling, and surely you can understand why someone would want to feel that way?

That's it in a nutshell. You take a cis-dude, get him all made up the way the best of us do in the picture gallery on here, and that dude will not be like "oh my god, I love myself this way". I'd venture to guess he'd have a bit of revulsion at his reflection in the mirror. He'd feel feel a strong disconnect between who he actually is, and what he looks like. He'd be painfully aware that he was "wearing a costume".

Now take one of us in the same situation, and it's the opposite reaction. Many of us don't feel like we're wearing a costume, we feel connected to ourselves in that scenario.

JohnnieCD

11-26-2012, 07:17 PM

in many of the animal kingdom, the males have the bright colors and flowing manes.....maybe mankind got it backwards.

Melissa_59

11-26-2012, 07:42 PM

Women can feel equally feminine in plumbing pants as they do in flouncy skirts.

Femininity isn't an outfit!

Sure, but women in plumbing pants or overalls are about as likely to be "attractive" as a walrus in a bikini. I think it was Twain that said "The clothes make the man", and I think that's equally important for women. You can feel feminine as Audrey Hepburn while wearing Battle Dress Uniform while out in the bush, but you'll look mostly like just another Marine. When a woman puts on a skirt, it's a transformation in the eyes of others - and from many women I've talked to, in themselves as well. If that wasn't true, then why on earth would any woman spend an hour and a half (or more) getting themselves all dressed up and made up, when they're feeling perfectly fine and feminine in their overalls and wellingtons? Why not just run around in something Omar the Tentmaker came up with? It's bound to be more comfortable and easier to deal with.

When one of us looks at themselves in the mirror and sees something that is more consistent with what what we feel on the inside, we just feel better about ourselves.

Anyway - that's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth.

~Melissa

Soriya

11-26-2012, 07:48 PM

Have you ever felt beautiful, or even sexy? It's a great feeling, and surely you can understand why someone would want to feel that way?

we feel connected to ourselves in that scenario.

This was a huge thing for me that I discovered when I started dressing a few years ago to figure it out. My avatar is a cam picture. When I first saw myself made up on cam like that, it was so much more intense then seeing myself made up int he mirror. I couldn't stop looking and couldn't believe it was me. I Felt 'beautiful'! After a few weeks of playing around with different looks and such I started to get bothered by it in a creepy way. I said to myself at one point,

"Man, I am attracted to myself, I would date me in a heart beat!!!!!"

In fact, I even felt like I was looking at the most beautiful woman I had ever saw. I have no doubt if I wasn't on a mission to figure out what it all meant and was still confused like early in my life, I could have easily ran with the idea that I was supposed to be a girl and progress down the line in effort to achieve that feeling more but that wasn't the case. As I sat there thinking that, my self questions began and shifted to why don't I feel beautiful as in male mode. I then ran a simple test. I took that avatar shot then after I went back to male mode, I took the same exact picture with pose and smile as me. I put them side by side in Photoshop and saw it clear as day.

I loved the Soriya pic but hated the male pic. Everything was the same except the appearance. This lead to more comparisons. I have been told countless times by women that I am handsome, have a great body, have all the intangibles physically what most women like and coupled with my personality was referred to often as 'a diamond in the ruff' among men. Huge clue: I didn't believe them! I have posted pictures of Soriya before and have gotten a lot of great comments but, I believed them!

I had already figured out I wasn't TS from learning all about my TS friends journey so it became clear that all the happiness I felt from CD'ing was the happiness that was missing as my true self. Because all the bullying I went through in my life I 'learned' to hate myself. Soriya physically represented what I had lost through my life as a boy.

Long story short, the objective for me was to merge the two personalities back together and 2+ years later, I am still working on it. I used to answer the question of 'Do I love myself' with a 'No' and as time went on would eventually say 'Not yet, but I don't hate myself anymore' but I was wrong, I was looking at it the wrong way.

The fact I took on the task to figure this all out is an act of loving myself. If I didn't love myself, I would have given up. :)

irene9999

11-26-2012, 07:49 PM

For me it's always been about looking feminine because I feel like there's a part of me that is like that inside me, the clothes are just a way to express that. I just really enjoy the whole act of "dressing up"; if you think about it, most GGs do "dress up"once in a while instead of wearing jeans/shirt, etc and I guess my crossdressing is my way doing the same thing in my own way.

ReineD

11-27-2012, 12:24 AM

Reine has not replied to my point that the clothes have an attraction in their own right, and there are a lot of women who have an uncontrollable urge to wear certain women's clothes. Some (but only some) cross-dressers feel the same way about them. Maybe it isn't that they are women's clothes, but that they are lovely CLOTHES. I feel I can look good in them without the make-up, wig or boobs, but admit I prefer to have the boobs (I only use the other twop to blend in when I go out in a skirt or dress). Sheer tights look better without leg hair, sleeveless tops or dresses look better without armpit hair. I admit I like to wear perfume, but again this smells nice in its own right. So you can take the clothes a very long way as a man without having to adopt anything that is genuinely feminine.

Sorry, Susan, I hadn't realized you were addressing your comment to me. :p

Well, if some women have uncontrollable urges to wear certain things, then I'd say they're right up there with the CDers! :D ... but, I don't know any women like this though, not compared to the volume of CDers who frequent this forum. And if you like women's clothes because they are lovely, and not because they are feminine, and if you like to wear breast forms, if you prefer shaving your body because you feel that it looks better with the clothes than not shaved, if you love the scent of women's perfume, and all of these are preferences in their own right without having anything to do with being feminine, ... then I'd say that life is a journey, and more will unfold to you as you meander through it. :)

Badtranny

11-27-2012, 01:47 AM

I'll tell ya what I think Door. Can I call you door? ;-)

I think an awful lot of CDrs (not ALL) get dressed up like a woman because they want to possess femininity in a way that is no longer allowed. They own the woman in the mirror wholly and completely. They can pose her however they want with no repercussions and they can play with her whenever they want with no negotiation. Many of them have no interest in going out because they have no interest in sharing their creation. They only fantasize about men because another man's interest validates their own interest in "their" girl. The one that they own completely.

So many of these men are filled with fear. They are afraid of people in general and they don't feel comfortable in social situations so they are probably loners with only a small circle of friends. It's telling that so many of them are social conservatives because a longing for a simpler time fits right in with my theory. Many of them are senior citizens who remember a time when women were not so independent and difficult to control. Cross dressing lets them revive their childhood memories of women wearing skirts and bullet bras, instead of pants and blazers with shoulder pads.

It makes sense for at least some of them, yes?

Lisa Gerrie

11-27-2012, 02:11 AM

Doormat, you're a GG so imagine yourself dressed as a man, underwear, shoes, and all. No makeup or jewelry. Your breasts are taped down, and you have an artificial penis in your boxers. Your legs and armpits are hairy, and your head is shaved.

It might not make you feel masculine, but how feminine would you feel?

ColleenA

11-27-2012, 02:17 AM

in many of the animal kingdom, the males have the bright colors and flowing manes.....maybe mankind got it backwards.

Humanity started to get it backwards when the mirror was invented. There is still plenty that occurs in man/woman interactions that parallels courting/mating rituals throughout the animal kingdom. Female attraction to bright colors and flowing manes, though, has in many ways been dropped in male courting behavior (that has varied immensely, however, from culture to culture and from age to age). Don't ask me why men have dropped that ball; I wouldn't be surprised if laziness is somehow a part of it.

In its place, then, women have responded to their evolutionarily driven attraction by developing their own behaviors to satisfy it. Through the use of mirrors, women can adorn themselves with colorful clothing and an endless variety of hairstyles - as well as makeup, jewelry, and any number of other accessories. At that point, "They own the woman in the mirror wholly and completely. They can pose her however they want with no repercussions and they can play with her whenever they want with no negotiation." (The previous two sentences blatantly plagiarized from Melissa two posts prior.)

Women's responsiveness to male preening and their search for "worthy" mates, a la courting behavior, is still evident at times, such as the way so many women respond to a man in uniform (i.e. soldiers and police officers).

MaryAnn40c

11-27-2012, 02:21 AM

I wear women's clothes all the time....jeans,shoes(runners) shirts... and really no one really knows the differance. I wear dress pants with nylons and people don't know what I am wearing...they say I have lost weight.

docrobbysherry

11-27-2012, 02:22 AM

Hope I'm not too late to add my 2 cents, GGDoor? Personally, I believe you may be over thinking the whole thing! Maybe it IS just about the clothes and how we look!?

For MANY of us, looking female IS EVERYTHING! The guy dressers here r like most guys, very visual. For me, seein' Barbie in my mirror is very exciting, arousing, and VERY SATISFYING!

"Feeling fem"? I can do the "fem" things u described, and all/any others u can think of, for the rest of my life and not feel fem for 1 second! However, striding in hi heels, nylons swishing as my legs touch, lip stick on my wine glass, and brushing my wig out of my face r some of the many things that DO make me feel fem. Even if it's only for a moment.

I'm clearly not TS, simply a CD. Why am I compelled to dress? And, for so many years? Like Reine said, maybe there's more to this than I understand. But, so far, I only know it's more fun than anything else I can do at my age. And, hanging with other CD/TG/TSs is much more stimulating and satisfying than talking about women, cars, and sports with my vanilla pals!

Vickie_CDTV

11-27-2012, 02:58 AM

I'll bet that there are few if any blind CDers. Men's vision has an uncontrollable power or grip on many men's lives. Just look at some of the "brilliant" and or powerful men who have succumbed to a pretty face. Men generally think with their small head because of their vision.

There are, in fact, blind dressers, but it is still keeping with male sexuality in a sense. I knew one who did not wear a wig or makeup, there was not a visual component, but did wear lingerie, and especially old fashioned nylons (the 100% nylon kind.) Instead of the image being the turn on, it was the irresistible feel of the clothes that drew him in. He remember the feel of nylons when he was growing up (running into the legs of women as a child and feeling them), and it stuck with him into adulthood.

It is visual for many of course, but one can't discount the appeal of the feel of the clothes. Men are also very tactile as well.

ColleenA

11-27-2012, 04:09 AM

Dori, in post #50, you wrote:

I am still confused: Why not just be feminine men? If women alone don't represent femininity, then why bother looking like one at all, if you are NOT a woman inside.

I just came across a great statement in the Transsexual Forum. In the thread “Are you a ‘tweener?’ ” someone says,

Yes I guess I am two people - since I won't allow my male self to be girlie, I guess I need to be two people.

With this in mind, Dori, I can answer your question "Why not just be feminine men?" pretty simply: It is dangerous, possibly even lethal, in male society to be perceived as feminine, as girly.

If a man displays feminine behaviors overtly, he is readily targeted as weak and quite often as homosexual, something which still is verboten most places. Bullies of all ages and others that I call "alpha wannabes" will hate and pick on someone they think is gay. The male world I am a part of is harsh. It can be a bitch (or should that be "bast***"?) to negotiate your way through.

So, while I have nothing against gays - I support rights such as workplace protections and same-sex marriage - I am not gay and hope people don't think I am. This is not to say that I'm paranoid about such a perception, but I am not a "macho dude" type. (Wait a minute, how many of them are gay, but try to mask it through an exaggerated masculinity?) No, I'm just one average guy - an overweight bookworm who is somewhat nerdy and not at all into cars or sports. The issue for me is not that I won't "allow" myself to be girly in public, as that post says, though. I'm just not highly masculine by society's standards, though I am masculine enough by default that I don't get hassled.

Meanwhile, I am attracted to women and have something of a fetish for bras. However, I didn't develop many social skills to be good at interacting with women except as friends. (To again plagiarize from Melissa a few posts back, I am a "loner with only a small circle of friends.") As a teen, my attraction to women went unsatisfied as I had no success at dating and relationships. It seems then that I turned that attraction inwardly, first by trying on my sister's bras, then moving on to other clothing of hers.

I will admit that one reason I dress up is for arousal purposes. But once the clothes are on, once I have produced this image of myself as female, there are other reasons to stay in the clothes - they look nice, they feel nice (nothing in a man's wardrobe feels anything like a bra! or like nylons, or knee-high boots, and nothing men wear allows the feel of a breeze up your skirt; well, maybe a kilt, but I've never worn one), they are a wonderful contrast to what I normally get to wear - but mostly it's fun to let this part of me run free.

And it is part of me. I have a desire to experience a form of femininity. That much is integrated in my head, even if it is not integrated into my daily life (except at home). So like the post I quoted, I guess I need to be two people: my main self, my male self, which is who I am as I maneuver through the world, a world that has bullies and others who are ready to tear others down in an attempt to build themselves up, and my second self. BTW, that second self did not even have a name until I was about 45 and was joining another site for CDers. So while Colleen may have been born when I was in 7th grade, she was not named until 2004. Colleen, who yearns to be soft and pretty and slim - and accepted and loved for who she is.

Foxglove

11-27-2012, 04:24 AM

Why not just be feminine men? If women alone don't represent femininity, then why bother looking like one at all, if you are NOT a woman inside. Why not help the movement to allow men more freedom of expression by actually looking like men?

Surely, emulating women as though we DO own the right to femininity is in fact taking men's rights backwards??

DM, as you know, transpeople are different, so I can only speak for myself. I don't want to look like a feminine man. I want to look feminine. That's because inside I'd prefer to be a woman, not a male of any sort. If men want to look more feminine, that's OK with me, but it means nothing to me. I don't want to be a man of any sort.

I myself am not trying to emulate women. I'm trans, and my femininity is of the trans sort, not your sort. Every GG has her own definition of femininity, and I can also have mine. My brand of femininity might not strike you as feminine, but again that's OK. I'm doing my own thing here and not trying to measure myself against anybody else. I've got nothing against men's rights, but that's not my cause. I'm into trans rights, because I'm trans, not a man.

As long as you see transpeople as men and women, you won't completely understand us. Some MTF's on this forum identify as men, but not all of us do. I personally don't identify as man or woman. I'm trans.

Annabelle

GabbiSophia

11-27-2012, 04:25 AM

I think that perhaps you are making this more complicated than it is. All people want to feel attractive. For some men, that means being able to look into a mirror and seeing someone pretty staring back at them. Have you ever felt beautiful, or even sexy? It's a great feeling, and surely you can understand why someone would want to feel that way?

this is a great way of saying it. I feel the outward expression of the inner thought is what I like. The thought that I can be feminine and look female in all clothes would be very helpfull. The fact is though that those outfits pronouce to everyone "hey i am female" and that is sexy in and of itself.

susan54

11-27-2012, 02:48 PM

Apologies to ReineD. I didn't intend to single you out, but your observations are often the most challenging on this Forum and thus more worthy of debate!

I may have argued myself into a corner re the femininity thing - I would have to admit it looks like I must feel feminine and maybe part of me does, but it doesn't register with me as something I am aiming when I am at home, and when I go out fully dressed (I often venture out as a man in a skirt and women's top and shoes) it is important that I appear feminine (rather than female) to others. In fact the people (women) I interact with know I am a man, and give me wonderful feedback (which is often but not always favourable) so that with the wider public my ACT looks good. A man looks better acting as a woman if he comes across as well-dressed, elegant and(yes) feminine, but it is still an ACT.

I do know women who obsess about clothes. The most extreme examples have very little hinterlandso they are not people whose company I would seek, but some of the intelligent, well educated women I choose to associate with have a strong interest in clothes and like to look good.

I thought of a male example of beautiful, taboo clothes. Many men would love to wear a Nazi officer's uniform, and strut around in jackboots, taking in a dodgy German accent. And society would disapprove - strongly - because of what the uniform stands for. I knew a man who owned a genuine Gestapo coat, which was a beautiful garment, and he found it amusing that certain people avoided him in the street. I bet anyone who had encountered that coat for real didn't find it amusing. There was a UK TV comedy about the French Resistance, complete with evil Nazi officers (and quite a lot of cross-dressing!). Initially there was a lot of criticism, but it was so funny it became accepted. It was obvious that the ones having the most fun were those in the Nazi uniforms. Incidentally, the hero was cafe owner called ...Rene. But my point is that there are men who will wear beautiful MALE clothes that risk offending society, and not all those wearing the Nazi uniform are on television.

I remain confident that many aspects of how women dress have an attraction all of their own, and that it is simply that many of us find these clothes attractive, sometimes to a fairly obsessive level. Perhaps the obsessive element is because of their taboo nature? Or perhaps not.

I don't feel the clothes are part of a journey. I have arrived. I have done everything I wanted to in these clothes and can't think of any new challenges. I now go out in them less, and have cut down a lot on purchases - I have enough. But I spend most of my free time in a skirt or dress.

I do not pretend to understand all of my behaviour - some of it makes no sense. But I do know that when I go out acting as a woman,I always think of myself as male, to the extent of flirting with women (who flirt back despite my appearance). But we cross-dressers like the clothes for a wide range of reasons.

sterling12

11-27-2012, 04:50 PM

Ah, but I have certainly known GG "Girlie-Girls" who enjoyed all of the clothing, all of the accessories, in addition to all of the other aspects of feeling feminine. I grant you that in today's world they are in the minority, but they are certainly out there! if you ask them, they will tell you: "It makes me feel sexier, more feminine!"

A simple "reason" for many transgendered males responding to what you would probably deem to be a "clothing fetish." When we were growing up, (at least many of us) our mothers, and most of the women around us were very feminine in their dress. Being "girlie-girl" was The Norm, and women embraced that philosophy. NEVER did I see my Mother go out of The House without makeup on, wearing earrings, her nails polished, in a dress, and usually wearing a full compliment of undergarments, including hose, and girdle. She would have felt "underdressed" if she didn't dress that way, and she was in a 99% majority!

Since many of us identify with Mothers, or Aunts, or Grandmothers, I would reckon we still cling to this idealized form of Womanhood. It feels good, once you try it, and it is certainly "different" than the usual mode of female dress we have today. I have often said to my TG Peers: "Hey, if blending is about wearing Polypants, and a shapeless top 24/7, I'd just as soon walk away. I think we need an extra "boost" to feel more feminine. But, I also find most of today's women enjoy occasionally "dressing up." they just don't want to do it all the time. Maybe, they sometimes need a boost too?

So, be a bit more tolerant of our foibles. Perhaps We are creatures of past experiences, perhaps we are still "experimenting," and enjoying ultra-femme? Would you be that shocked by some Gal down at The Office who tended to be very "dressy" most of the time? I can't imagine you would be that shocked or condemning. Much like you would "indulge" her, cut that same sort of slack for The Crossdresser in your life.

Peace and Love, Joanie

Kaz

11-27-2012, 06:01 PM

Hi DM... DoorMat... difficult name to conjure with I am afraid, but it conveys feeling :)

I am coming in late in the day, I am afraid, but it is such a brilliant thread... I was reading it yesterday, but just as I thought 'I'll say this'... it took another twist!

I hope this is helping you. Get us going and we will tell you everything! What I am getting from this thread is the overarching confused/complex nature of this CD thing. One of the big reasons we are here and why I stay is that we are still trying to figure it out (apart from the fact that this is a great group of people to hang out with!).

I realised ages ago that it wasn't just the clothes. That was a shake up! So then I went through the 'wanting to feel feminine' thing.. which is true... but my rationality caused me to accept that I could never feel truly feminine... I am configured the wrong way. This is the one biggy that I will always be denied. So then I started to accept me as me.

Now I have never been a 'man's man'... I spent years in a sales environment living a daily nightmare of pretending to be one of the guys. It wasn't that bad, but bad enough... since then I have had more 'fun' employment, but I still dress in the 'uniform' in which men are expected to dress. Suits and ties, jeans, T-shirts and checky shirts, etc.. men's men tend to behave as pack animals - you have to conform or you are not part of the pack.

Now I know that many 'men' out there don't 'conform' and have great lives as individualistic people... great job if you can get it! In my current role, I can do this a lot more, but unfortunately I now have a 'history' and I am a professional, so I have to be careful about how I exercise my freedoms.

This is why many here post about women being able to wear what they want etc... the sentiment is probably based on the frustration of being locked into male dress codes, but it always comes out wrong. But... on femininity, I know many women who look great in boiler suits, even brown paper bags! Their femininity shines through! Put them in a men's suit etc... and it still will... because they are women.

When I wear women's clothes, I love lots of things about it... sometimes it is just 'me'... I feel right. I cannot explain it, it just feels like I am at one with the world. At other times, I still feel like the real me (I will avoid using the term feminine, because I think it is more complex than that) wearing my male gear. If I have to wear male gear though I feel better if I can wear some 'womenswear' somewhere, just to remind me of who I am. So today at work I wore some black tights/pantyhose under my normal male attire and having got back, changed I am now sat again with black tight under normal guy gear (yeah... it's cold here!). I mixed with my wife and one of my daughters and so didn't get changed to 'femme' stuff, as we call it. Too tired... but typing this now I feel like 'me'. I could be wearing stockings and a dress and still be feeling the same.

I am not sure if this is coming out right, it just a discursive from the heart based on the thread. And now for the killer punch...

When I go for it... full make-up, wig, the works... words cannot describe the feeling I get... I 'see' me as I might be, as a woman - and that is just so compelling. I don't have the opportunity to do this that often, so when I do I take photos if I can to capture the moment. Those photos mean a lot to me.

So... am I trying to be a woman? Do I need to wear women's clothes to feel feminine... These are not questions I can answer. If I were 30 years younger I might have considered full TS stuff. There have been times over my life and there certainly were in my early adolescence when I desperately wanted to be a girl/woman. But I kinda dealt with all that and got on with things.

I am still married, I have three grown up daughters and one granddaughter. I have been a resourceful and loving husband and father and my family mean the world to me. I am a highly respected professional and a pretty mean guitar player currently in two gigging bands.

I also am a crossdresser... always have been, always will be. I know it will never go away. I wish it would, but I don't want it to. Feeling like 'me' is a great feeling, and very empowering. But this 'me' likes to let my full on feminine side out sometimes... and I call that expression Kaz. When 'she' is dressed in women's clothes, I feel great! When I am dressed in my usual stuff, she is still there, and I am still me. I don't need the clothes anymore... but they are fun!

So... it must be very puzzling DM... It sure is for me. My wife cannot accept it. She accepts that I do what I do, but she won't discuss it etc.. So I should give up maybe? If it were that simple, I just might..... but it isn't... I have tried before!

Wildaboutheels

11-27-2012, 08:07 PM

Fluffy, I find it odd that so few people ever mention it at these Forums so I will. POWER. One possible contributing factor for your SO [or any guy] to CD [even if it might or might not be comepletely unconscious] Power by the simple virtue of being female [at least once a female gets into her teens] and is far better able to "manipulate" males into "helping" her out in some fashion than a male would be able to "manipulate" any females. I certainly hope you agree? Being a male, I can tell you that a lil smile here or a lil wiggle there by an attractive woman probably affects us males far different than most females. It's that silly male VISION "weakness" thing that so many men are susceptible to.

Of course this is undoubtedly going to work a whole lot better if the woman is "attractive". The more attractive she can make herself the greater her power and I think that can go on till the woman grows old and dies. EVERYWHERE you look, the evidence is overwhelming. Women have so many more choices in clothes and spend all that time and effort on hair and makeup because it increases their odds with more men. IT DOES NOT WORK THE SAME WAY FOR MEN. Which is the reason that men do not have such a diverse selection of clothing as women and why it is NOT necessary for men to spend so much time [so they don't] on their outward appearance. The more ATTRACTIVE a woman is the more power she has. But simply being female gives her some power unless she is very "unattractive" for some reason. And YES, we are only talking about the wrapping here and not the person inside but an attractive woman will have more/better chances of being approached by and having a conversation with a guy which is the only way to begin to unravel the person inside. Her odds are better, plain and simple of finding a "good/better" mate.

Name 5 supermodel females.

Now name 5 supermodel males. How about 1 supermodel male? Women just do not care that much about a guy's looks, plain and simple REALITY.

How many actresses or female singers/entertainers can you name that are "quite" overweight and/or unattractive? Compare that to males of the same variety. The evidence is overwhelming. Yes, women "have to" spend all that time and energy on their appearance but they get "power" from their presentation. IF women received no benefits, they would not do it. True or false? Some women can sail through life or at least a long way on looks alone? How many guys do you think could do it?

I think most all Humans enjoy compliments no matter how, where or why they get them. Females are far more likely to receive compliments than men.

One last thing. I'll bet few if any GGs have never been envious of another woman's looks OR witnessed or thought that a woman somewhere, probably got her job [whatever it might be] because of her looks and not her talent or the person inside?

Taylor186

11-27-2012, 09:06 PM

I have to disagree with almost everything in the post just above this one.

I'm not going take it blow by blow, but make no mistake: everyone (99%+) on this planet lives in a patriarchal society. If you want to emulate the gender that has the power you will emulate a man.

Moxie

11-27-2012, 11:26 PM

This has been some very interesting reading!

It struck a real chord with me too, when it was mentioned that maybe some CDers dress to create the perfect woman they can control etc. My H has said not exactly this, but he's hinted that he visually appreciates his female appearance as a guy would, as though he's looking at himself AS A GUY. I found this hugely confusing when he first tried to explain it, but the answers here have really helped.

My H was also a very quiet boy, shy and with low confidence. I believe he was also bullied. As a man he's none of this and is actually very charming, handsome etc, and I'm pretty sure he does realize this now! lol. But that shy boy still exists inside? He must, as he's still trying to recreate that perfect woman he maybe could never have way back then? Of course, this part is hard for a wife to hear. I still turn a head or two and really, shouldn't my presence be enough?

Confusing thing, this CD!

I have also pondered the animal theory before too. Most other species have very pretty males! Why are human women the ones wearing all this adornment? It's interesting to think that maybe we picked up the slack from when men stopped looking pretty?

Lots to ponder. And yes, some of us wives DO ponder this stuff...A LOT. Believe it or not, but on my other board that I frequent, the wives aren't all bitching and crying about their CDH's, nor are they blindly accepting. (though there are one or two who bitch and cry, lol). MOST are trying to figure out the logic, science and reason behind their partners dressing. Yes, that's right. We women discuss endlessly about what on earth our H's are doing, we share reasons, research, stories, we tear our hair out at WHY a rational man would do this, and we do this over and over again until our heads hurt. We women can be really quite focused when something is bothering us, just so you know. :)

So thanks again to everyone who is helping me through this. My head clears a little more everyday, even if I'm still as confused as when I started! Perhaps I'm slowly accepting there are as many answers to my questions as there are crossdressers and it's just one of life's little mysteries.

Okay, maybe I haven't accepted that yet, but I'm working on it!

docrobbysherry

11-28-2012, 12:21 AM

"-------Yes, that's right. We women discuss endlessly about what on earth our H's are doing, we share reasons, research, stories, we tear our hair out at WHY a rational man would do this, and we do this over and over again until our heads hurt.-----------", Doormat.

When u figure out the answer to THAT question, please pass it along! I'm one of those rational planners u mention. Everything I do and have done is/was carefully thot out, planned, and each plan followed to satisfactory conclusion. No compulsive behavior in my entire family.

And then, suddenly out of the blue, I began dressing later in life. I don't know why. It makes no sense at all. At my age especially! And, I don't seem to be able to stop. Instead, it seems to keep ramping up!

How do expect to find the "answers" when some of us dressers don't even understand many of the questions?

justmetoo

11-28-2012, 12:23 AM

Good to hear some of this is helping, DM! I think it's good to ask questions. I know I have been asking myself a lot of these questions for decades, and I still don't have all the answers (not even sure I have any of them. LOL). That's something for all of us, CDs and SOs/loved ones of CDs, to keep in mind - many of us CDs have had years and even decades of very personal struggle and soul-searching with this stuff. Many of you have not, or maybe at most only ever thought of it in passing and/or from a distance. Seems to me it can help if we can share the burden, as it were (although I feel it's more of a gift than a burden in some ways).

Eryn

11-28-2012, 12:31 AM

And therein lays the key to the matter the VISUAL...

I'll bet that there are few if any blind CDers.

I recently sat next to a lovely blind CDer at a group dinner so that number is not zero.

Kate T

11-28-2012, 01:35 AM

"real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance" - Confucious
To be honest DM, the more answers I have, about anything, the more questions I end up posing. That is not to say that the questions and answers are not worth seeking, just that life is a journey of experience and seeking of knowledge. If we knew everything then what would be the point?
DM, yes you are enough and more for your husband. Personally I don't think he is trying to recreate the "perfect woman" he could never have in himself. If this was an issue it would make more sense for him to ask you to undergo plastic surgery to create the perfectly "desirable" woman. If your husband does find the act of dressing and thought of himself as a female arousing then look up autogynephilia on these boards and the internet, it is not uncommon (I suspect very common in CD's) though the degree to which it is experienced is quite variable.

The comment by your husband that the clothes are FUN I would agree is true, at least for me. BUT you need to define a little more closely what is meant by fun. It is not fun in terms of a guy in drag at a bucks party, where it is all a big joke. It is fun in terms of going out, being validated and even admired and having a good time, not in a sexual manner but in the way that you DM may admire a good friend and the dress they wore to a party last month or whenever. The fun requires acceptance, and that requires the CD to be generally at least passably feminine.

One last thing DM. Some things just are. Whilst experience may have some mild impact on gender identity there is a mountain of evidence now that gender identity is in all likelihood established at or before birth (though I don't quite buy the genetics argument, and I know a fair bit about genetics and breeding in a variety of animal species). I do agree with Jen and a few others, I suspect the answers you seek do not exist. The questions are still worth asking, often though more for the things that you find are NOT true (e.g. that all CD's MUST want to transition and be women).

Jane P

11-28-2012, 02:16 AM

This has been some very interesting reading!

Confusing thing, this CD!

I have also pondered the animal theory before too. Most other species have very pretty males! Why are human women the ones wearing all this adornment? It's interesting to think that maybe we picked up the slack from when men stopped looking pretty?

Lots to ponder. And yes, some of us wives DO ponder this stuff...A LOT. Believe it or not, but on my other board that I frequent, the wives aren't all bitching and crying about their CDH's, nor are they blindly accepting. (though there are one or two who bitch and cry, lol). MOST are trying to figure out the logic, science and reason behind their partners dressing. Yes, that's right. We women discuss endlessly about what on earth our H's are doing, we share reasons, research, stories, we tear our hair out at WHY a rational man would do this, and we do this over and over again until our heads hurt. We women can be really quite focused when something is bothering us, just so you know. :)

So thanks again to everyone who is helping me through this. My head clears a little more everyday, even if I'm still as confused as when I started! Perhaps I'm slowly accepting there are as many answers to my questions as there are crossdressers and it's just one of life's little mysteries.

Okay, maybe I haven't accepted that yet, but I'm working on it!

S##T , maybe I really am a woman trapped in a mans body because I keep questioning these things about myself too and most of the time it drives me (almost)crazy. I am joking about the being trapped part but not about trying to understand or accept this being part of what makes me me. Good luck in figuring it out DM and if you do , please ,please let me know.

I really do appreciate you trying to understand and wish you and your H all the best.

Jenniferathome

11-28-2012, 10:58 AM

... we share reasons, research, stories, we tear our hair out at WHY a rational man would do this, .....

You're not going to have any hair left! What might explain one story will not fit the next. Stay positive and keep laughing at it.

Jenniferathome

11-28-2012, 11:04 AM

POWER. One possible contributing factor for your SO [or any guy] to CD [even if it might or might not be comepletely unconscious] Power by the simple virtue of being female [at least once a female gets into her teens] and is far better able to "manipulate" males into "helping" her out in some fashion than a male would be able to "manipulate" any females.

Wow! What a nonsense argument. I want the 20seconds of my life back from reading this. So your thesis is that I have no control over myself as a man. Women manipulate me? And your proof is that you can name more female super models than male? Astounding. Only the weak are manipulated and they come in both sexes.

AnneB1nderful

11-28-2012, 01:50 PM

...I have been told countless times by women that I am handsome, have a great body, have all the intangibles physically what most women like and coupled with my personality was referred to often as 'a diamond in the ruff' among men. Huge clue: I didn't believe them! I have posted pictures of Soriya before and have gotten a lot of great comments but, I believed them!

I had already figured out I wasn't TS from learning all about my TS friends journey so it became clear that all the happiness I felt from CD'ing was the happiness that was missing as my true self. Because all the bullying I went through in my life I 'learned' to hate myself. Soriya physically represented what I had lost through my life as a boy.

Long story short, the objective for me was to merge the two personalities back together and 2+ years later, I am still working on it. I used to answer the question of 'Do I love myself' with a 'No' and as time went on would eventually say 'Not yet, but I don't hate myself anymore' but I was wrong, I was looking at it the wrong way.

The fact I took on the task to figure this all out is an act of loving myself. If I didn't love myself, I would have given up. :)

Soriya,

I can relate to almost everything you posted here. Although I was not picked on much and never hated myself. But, I like myself so much better en femme. It feels more like who I'm supposed to be. At the same time, I get fulfillment from being a man for my family (father, grandpa, brother, son, uncle...). I cannot give that up.That's part of who I am.

Living and Loving in God's Grace,
Anne