Whats with the guilt

[prescilla]

Hi girls having a bad day.
Recently got the final parcel. Now I have my new heels,choice of 2 new dresses and all the sexy stuff. Can anyone explain why what was to be a great night turns into another period of self disgust. After so many years it still happens. At least I have sense enough to hold on to my purchases after many costly purges. I live alone and have freedom to dress as I wish, so what is my problem.

Love Prescilla

[ChelseaErtel]

I used to have the guilt until I accepted I was a CDer. I later realized after therapy that I was TS, but that doesn't matter.

You are expressing yourself. I assume its not sexual, it never was with me so if it is then I guess that's another issue, but I would say not a problem. What is your motivation to dress? How does it make you feel? You will have to figure out these questions among others to find out who you are (that is if you don't know) and accept that person. Acceptance is very important for your mental and physical health. Once you do that, you will have great nights with out guilt and disgust.

Don't be guilty, don't hate yourself. Accept who you are and embrace that person. Seek therapy if it's getting you down, because I am not a psychologist and I venture to say most on this form are not either and we can only give you our perspectives on the little information given.

You are not alone, I bet most of us when through those feelings in the past as well.

Take care my friend.

[AmyGaleRT]

I'm not sure, Prescilla. It might just be that you still have trouble accepting yourself in the role of a crossdresser, or accepting the feminine part of yourself that causes you to want to wear the dresses and heels.

It takes some of us a while to come to grips with these feelings. Mine didn't really solidify until after my ex-wife and I divorced and she left overseas, and I started moving beyond my previous experiences with dressing (which were almost exclusively in nightgowns) and acquiring a better-rounded feminine wardrobe. I knew then that there was part of me that felt absolutely at home when en femme. It wasn't sufficient to think of myself as a transsexual, but it was enough that I could accept the labels "crossdresser" and even "transgendered." The Native Americans have a lovely term for it, too..."two-spirited." That's me right there, my male self and Amy, two and yet one.

Don't be disgusted with yourself...look at it this way: You have been given a gift, a part of yourself that most men don't have or don't acknowledge. Embrace it. Revel in it. Put on your femme finery, then sit back, relax, and let the warm feeling of femininity envelop you, much as it does me. See the world through your femmeself's eyes; look at the women around you and admire their fashion sense (and maybe get some new ideas!), window-shop and imagine yourself in the pretty clothes you see on display. Make the most of the gift you have been given.

I wish you well on this incredible journey, sister. :hugs:

- Amy

[Kathy4ever]

I don't know what you feel guilty for. If you aren't sneaking around on someone then you should be free to be yourself. Enjoy yourself and treasure the items you have purchased. If it is sexual then that could be some inner conflict showing up. I know at the beginning that was an issue with me. I didn't want this to be for sexual gratification but for it to be a normal occurance. Now don't get me wrong in that I really enjoy the presentation and the look but after all this time have the ability not to wet my panties like i would when I was younger. It has begun to feel more normal now. Maybe you just got dress more often my if opion counts. I wish you luck in your journey and just relax and enjoy. Stop thinking so much.

[bimini1]

Well for me the latest has once again occured this weekend with transphobic relatives around the thanksgiving dinner table. You would think I could come down here just once and not have to go thru listening to their ignorant religious-based boneheaded garbage but nooooooo.
It causes me to lose any hope there is just no way out of it other than another frugal attempt to quit. There is nothing. No hope. Just nothing. Sad that I would let them get me like this but after a while I just break down.

[Kaz]

Hi Prescilla,

I have come to accept that these 'guilt' moments come, but they also go. Life is a paradox and very few of us are in a permanent state of happiness. CDing brings moments of unbelievably intense satisfaction and a feeling of well-being, so I guess there has to be a dark side too. :sad:

For me it is also a feeling very much like guilt. You just spent a load of money on stuff that has no other purpose in life other than to indulge this side of you! Another way of looking at it is that you are looking after and treating Prescilla. She won't go away. So I decided a long time ago to nurture Kaz, and this forum has been (and still is) a major part in that. When I buy her something, I know that I am looking after her - as long as she doesn't get greedy and take too much! :heehee:

Now that sounds like a split personality, but it isn't. We are part of the same person, but I need to express this side of me and this is how I rationalise it I guess. The guilt is still there at times, but I can deal with it better these days! Just don't throw anything out! And when the urge isn't there don't force it... have a 'guy' day. I have had loads of times when I have planned for a special time as Kaz only to find that on the day I had flipped to the 'dark side'... "what am I doing here?", "am I going mad?", "why did I buy this?".

It's all part of who we are I am afraid :hugs::hugs:

[prescilla]

Hi Chelsea
CDing for me is a peaceful side of myself. But even after almost 50 years I have never been able to rid myself of the guilt and self disgust.I appreciate your advice but maybe I have left things too late to consider psychology.
Things will get get better, and girl you should see the new heels " hot".

Thankyou Prescilla

[Beth Wilde]

Hi Prescilla,
The guilty feeling can come from a lot of sources. As you are alone and free to dress it isn't about hiding. Can I suggest that maybe for you, like so many others, it's the fact that what you are doing is regarded by society as "not normal"? I realise that this should not and does not matter but for a lot of people it goes against the grain of what you learn as you grow up. Is there a point at which you suddenly become disgusted (post pleasure perhaps) or does it slowly come on as you spend time dressed? Again, a lot of what we learn or at least inadvertently absorb as we grow up tells us that we are doing something "not normal".

The feelings can be defeated, I certainly couldn't care less about normal, I'm happy!! Breaking no laws and hurting nobody so why should I feel guilty?
There are people who get their kicks hurting others or doing hideous things to children, animals etc! Leave the guilty feelings to them, they should damn well be feeling them!!

To quote Kathy's signature, life is too short not to be happy!

[ChelseaErtel]

Hi Chelsea
CDing for me is a peaceful side of myself. But even after almost 50 years I have never been able to rid myself of the guilt and self disgust.I appreciate your advice but maybe I have left things too late to consider psychology.


I sought help when I was 52 and just told my wife I'm TS. It's not too late. It's never to late to feel good about yourself and live a guilt free life.

Accept yourself and I believe we are all better humans because of our gender blending. This form will help too, I took great comfort here when I began reading then even more comfort when I joined.

[Kaz]

Prescilla, things will get definitely get better! Take a hot bath and pamper yourself... you will feel like a new woman! And don't forget to take a pic of the heels - to share with us! :hugs:
And as the Mamas and Papas sang.... the darkest hour is just before dawn!

[Raychel]

Until you truely accept yourself the guilt feeling will be there. I went thru this for a very long time. But that has all past and I can just enjoy being the person I am.
And you know, if someone unexpected should walk in the door right now, I really would not care all that much. Live is too short, enjoy it.

[Sharon B.]

Know how you feel I live alone also but still have guilt feelings when I am dressed, I think my problem is I have merged my two sides into one yet and don't know when I will.
My feminine side would prefer to live in the city and my male side enjoys living in the country. Right now my male side has won but still enjoy dressing as a woman whenever I can and driving a big 4X4 truck. My feminine side would prefer something smaller and easy on gas but that has happen either.

[Rebecca W.]

Dear Prescilla,

You are not alone in the guilty feelings and self disgust. I went against my male ego and purchased several outfits last night. There is no easy way to figure out who we need to be or how we can express our desire to be a woman sometimes. I went out shopping in a busy mall last night wearing super tight women's jeans with tights, no socks and I felt great. I am trying to break out of my self imposed "shell" to be what I want to be and be happy with it. Purges are only a temporary fix and then the desire will come back, it always comes back, trust me.

We are all here to listen and to offer any assistance to allow you to express your true inner self. I enjoy being on here for that reason.

Have a Great Day!

[Cheryl T]

It's a matter of self-doubt and years of feeling "different".
I went through those periods (too many of them) where I would buy an outfit and dress and love the moment only to feel so guilty and strange at the end. Then swearing to never do it again, I purged only to have regret for having spent and wasted all the time and money.
Then comes the desire again...and the roller coaster climbs to the top.

Finally I accepted myself and who I am...and this is a big part of me that can be satisfied no other way. Now there are no more regrets, no more purges, no more guilt...just ME.
We must reach that point of accepting who we are to place all those other feelings in the trash instead of the items we love and need to express who we are.

[Angela Campbell]

For me the guilt went away when I finally came to the conclusion that this is something I was born with, I didn't ask for, and I cannot change. I simply will not feel guilty for something that is not my fault. I accepted the fact that I am like this.

[suzy1]

It doesn’t matter what you do in this life as long as you are not hurting anyone else doing it in my opinion.
You are not hurting anyone are you Prescilla?

All the comments posted here are very sensible. I can’t add anything. But I can wish you well in stopping all that self disgust!:eek:

[Lorileah]

Easy answer, you feel guilty because you were TOLD you were guilty. Someone else decided years ago that you should fit their idea of life and you were taught that. Somethings you are taught are wrong, we have proven this over and over again. The sun does not revolve around the earth. All people are equal, no one was "made" less human. Twinkies don't last forever.

Everyone else has already said it, accept who you are and you won't be guilty. As long as you believe you are somehow "less" you will keep feeling "less". Look in the mirror, is that a bad person? Nope. Don't let the naysayers win.

[Annie M]

Just wrote in another thread the I felt guilty that my Dad spent his time at the bar, I suppose I always felt it was because I was not the son he was wanted. Probably not the case but that's how I felt, guilty. Also noted that wearing dresses and looking in the mirror I always felt wonderful. Guilt is a very long road to travel in the dark.

[Gaby2]

Hi Chelsea, try not to feel guilty about CDing.
At least you've learned not to wastefully purge!
You can CD as often and for whatever reason you choose!
I'm sure it's only a question of time - at least it has been for me - and in many areas of life.

Sure I continue to have feelings of "guilt" too - but I try to recognize them in good time and do my best to let them harmlessly pass by!
Be good to yourself - tell yourself that you are beautiful, whether dressed or not.
Believe in yourself!

THinking of you... enjoying your new heels!
:hugs:Gaby

[Foxglove]

Easy answer, you feel guilty because you were TOLD you were guilty.

You know, Lorileah, I'm not entirely sure of this. Feelings of guilt seem almost universal among us. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't instinctive in us: "I'm a boy! Why should I want to be a girl?" or "I'm a girl! Why should I want to be a boy?" Were absolutely all of us told we should feel guilty?

Well, I don't know. And I don't want to argue the case because I can't prove it. I'm not even sure it's right. It's just something I wonder about.

But, Prescilla, I can tell you this: in recent months I wanted to come out of the closet and live as myself in my little town. But I hesitated for the longest time because I was afraid of the reaction I'd get, and also because of guilt. Guilt is very tenacious. It's hard to shake. It's easy to convince the mind that there's nothing to be ashamed of, but the heart doesn't come around so easily.

For the longest while I was telling myself, "You're crazy! If you think you can walk around this little town dressed as a woman, you're crazy. They're not going to let you get away with that." I eventually realized I was trying to foist off on the people of this town the guilt I was still feeling within me. Guilt is such a crazy feeling: if some other transperson was out, I was delighted about that. "But not me! Oh, no, I couldn't do that myself. It's just not me. They may be that sort of person--and of course there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm not that sort myself." In other words, I wasn't even sure what I was thinking any more. I was getting seriously incoherent.

Anyway, I finally got out, and to my great surprise I found that the people of this town had a far easier time accepting me than I did. They were OK with it. It's got to the point now that a trip into town for shopping, the library, whatever, has become routine. Nothing in particular to report. I just get dressed, grab my purse and step out the door like I've been doing it all my life.

And do you know what? I still feel a bit guilty at times. Is that crazy? Guilt is an amazing thing.

I always quote Nietzsche in this sort of situation: "You don't want your chain to let you go? Then by all means, bite it."

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Eryn]

For years and years we have been indoctrinated with the idea that wearing femme things is bad. Our bodies have a physiological response to things we think are bad which is something that helps us to survive. We cannot, however, distinguish between things that are bad because they are physically dangerous (crossing the street against the lights) and things that are bad because they are socially dangerous (crossdressing).

Unfortunately, the intellectual certainty that CDing is an acceptable activity has to go up against the impact of the life-long indoctrination that we received so every once in a while the guilt monster pays us a visit. Luckily, we can learn so each time the monster's visit will be shorter unless we encourage it to stay on by engaging in negative actions such as purging, hiding, etc.

[Foxglove]

Our bodies have a physiological response to things we think are bad which is something that helps us to survive. We cannot, however, distinguish between things that are bad because they are physically dangerous (crossing the street against the lights) and things that are bad because they are socially dangerous (crossdressing).


That's a very interesting idea, Eryn. Certainly something to think about. If my parents had found out what I was, it certainly would have been a danger to my survival.

Annabelle

[MssHyde]

Hi girls having a bad day.
Recently got the final parcel. Now I have my new heels,choice of 2 new dresses and all the sexy stuff. Can anyone explain why what was to be a great night turns into another period of self disgust. After so many years it still happens. At least I have sense enough to hold on to my purchases after many costly purges. I live alone and have freedom to dress as I wish, so what is my problem.

Love Prescilla

I'm driven to dress, but it does not satisfy, it does not bring on lasting happiness for me.

if my wife would get in involved if excepting it would be fun.

I get tired of being alone with it. (I think your there too)

it takes so long to get ready, its such a let down putting things away, taking everything off and weighing what did i get out of it.

I'd be happier if it wasn't like smoke in mirrors to look like a woman.

so I guess I don't have the answers, every thing we do we have to make a choice,
it's so very hard to make the right one, for the long haul.

I wish you the best

[Barbara Ella]

I know the guilt is there, and I know it can dissapate when you truly accept who you are, it did for me also. You have read the reasons as put forth here, and all of them are valid, and all are working together, making it very difficult to get rid of. When you do get down, pamper yourself a little. Best of luck to you.

Barbara

[suzy1]

Question, can intellect overcome guilt?

In other words can we use our intellect, our intelligence, our common sense to get rid of this illogical guilt if we really want to? I think we can.
If we say to ourselves that we can’t, that we are to ‘indoctrinated’ then we are underestimating ourselves. We are giving in to it.
This guilt is illogical although explainable and understandable. But are you going to let it rule you or are you going to do something about it.

It’s your life.

[Foxglove]

Question, can intellect overcome guilt?


Speaking from my own experience, I don't think so. But the intellect can get you to a place where you can overcome your guilt. I think that mind and heart need to work together.

The mind can explain to the heart over and over why guilt is wrong, but I believe eventually the heart has to do the real work. By listening to the mind, it opens itself to the world, to new experiences and finally to healing.

I think in a lot of matters it's the mind that's right, but it's too much of a blunt instrument. The heart needs time, patience and subtlety.

Finally, though, I think lots of people underestimate the importance of the mind. The heart isn't always right. In fact, it can quite often lead us badly astray. The mind can help to bring it back in line. As I said, I think the mind and heart need to work together.

Annabelle

[Diversity]

Hi Prescilla,
I believe this is happening to you because you haven't fully embraced the self-acceptance of who you really are. Once that happens you can move on without the guilty feelings. You are not alone in these feelings. In the past, I often had the same guilty feelings and did not understand why I was doing this CD thing. I threw out clothes I purchased only to find time and time again that I needed to buy more to satisfy the feelings I was having in wanting to CD once again. This went on for years.
Finally, this past August, I found the strength to tell my wife that I liked wearing women's clothing. I told her that I tried to suppress these feelings over and over, but at this stage of my life, I came to a decision to 'be who I am and accept myself for who I am as a whole person'.
The long and the short of it, is that once you look yourself in the mirror and fully accept yourself, and tell yourself that it is not bad, it is not wrong, it is just a part of your inner being which you are happy to express. You must throw away the demands and expectations of societal norms, emotionally. Then you must adapt to them in a manner which makes you feel comfortable. As time goes on, you will challenge yourself in various ways, privately or in public, until you reach a balance of self acceptance as a man and as a woman.
I am doing this now, and I am truly at place of acceptance, but have not reached the place of true balance. This will come in time. For now I am enjoying my journey, and I hope that by sharing this with you, you will see that you are not alone, and will gain strength toward self acceptance and fulfillment. Good luck to you, Prescilla. We are all here to help one another. Just relax, and enjoy your own special journey.
Di

[suzy1]

Speaking from my own experience, I don't think so. But the intellect can get you to a place where you can overcome your guilt. I think that mind and heart need to work together.

The mind can explain to the heart over and over why guilt is wrong, but I believe eventually the heart has to do the real work. By listening to the mind, it opens itself to the world, to new experiences and finally to healing.

I think in a lot of matters it's the mind that's right, but it's too much of a blunt instrument. The heart needs time, patience and subtlety.

Finally, though, I think lots of people underestimate the importance of the mind. The heart isn't always right. In fact, it can quite often lead us badly astray. The mind can help to bring it back in line. As I said, I think the mind and heart need to work together.

Annabelle

We can’t agree on everything Annabelle but that’s what makes life interesting sometimes.
I think I would replace the heart in the equation with ‘strength of character’
The heart will follow automatically.

Your friend Suzy :)

[sometimes_miss]

Can anyone explain why what was to be a great night turns into another period of self disgust.
For me, it was the inability to be 'man enough' to hold back the urge to dress up as a girl. I 'wasn't strong enough', or 'man enough', to NOT do it, which made me feel like a failure. Eventually, I understood that there was no point to 'not dressing', because I wasn't hurting anyone, and I should be free to do whatever I want in my own home. Yes, I still sometimes feel a pang of guilt about wanting to be a girl, but it's seldom and infrequent.

[Angela Campbell]

I have no guilt about wanting to be a girl. I also want to be rich and have no guilt about that either. I will probably never be either but that's ok too. Now, can intellect overcome guilt? Yes of course it can. What do you think a therapist does when he or she helps you? They are using reason to help you overcome guilt, among other things.

[kimdl93]

Easy answer, you feel guilty because you were TOLD you were guilty. Someone else decided years ago that you should fit their idea of life and you were taught that. Somethings you are taught are wrong, we have proven this over and over again. The sun does not revolve around the earth. All people are equal, no one was "made" less human. Twinkies don't last forever.

Everyone else has already said it, accept who you are and you won't be guilty. As long as you believe you are somehow "less" you will keep feeling "less". Look in the mirror, is that a bad person? Nope. Don't let the naysayers win.

So much of what we 'feel' is imposed on us by others. These imposed feelings of guilt are lies. The truth can be found only after you abandon feelings of guilt for simply being yourself in all that you are.

[Julie Gaum]

Most of us have experienced guilt during our journey. Before the Internet it was much worse as we felt all alone in the universe with nobody to tell us not to feel guilt for we were the "New Normal" and didn't know it. From the posts above that guily usually will go away --- some take longer to come to terms with who they are. Of course there are those who at an early age knew they wanted to be or believed they were female so there was no guilty thoughts involved. But I'm most concerned with the post by bimini1 who nobody addressed. She wrote that due to her parents she has given up and "there is no hope". That scares me for we all know that one can never escape in our life time. So for Bimini I'd like to tell a true story that you might be able to relate to: I have two very well educated cousins (one graduated college with honors at 17 and the other at 18). Both of their mothers were born in the States. Both mothers told their daughters when they were in their teens that masturbating was very wrong. Both girls obeyed their mothers but married by age 20. Both husbands died --- one after 55 years of marriage and 2 children and the other after 48 years in wedlock and 3 children. After 8 years alone thay both found partners of their own age but neither ever dared to masturbate even years after their mothers died! I would agree with suzzy that intellect should trump guilt but it never did with my two cousins and unless Bimini can realize that ignorance and superstition will ruin her life she too will follow suit for no good reason.
Julie

[Audrey34]

Can anyone explain why what was to be a great night turns into another period of self disgust. After so many years it still happens. At least I have sense enough to hold on to my purchases after many costly purges. I live alone and have freedom to dress as I wish, so what is my problem.


Hi Prescilla,
I think I understand a bit about the guilt. For me it's the culture I grew up in. Boys aren't supposed to do stuff like "dressing up like girls" and all. The other ladies are right in that by accepting yourself and the fact that you dress will most likely help you in the long run. I still deal with that guilt from time to time. In the end I have to say "screw it". I'm not hurting anyone, I'm having fun, it's my money and I'll spend it any way I want to. Hope that helps, hon!
-Audrey

[Lorileah]

You know, Lorileah, I'm not entirely sure of this. Feelings of guilt seem almost universal among us. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't instinctive in us: "I'm a boy! Why should I want to be a girl?" or "I'm a girl! Why should I want to be a boy?" Were absolutely all of us told we should feel guilty?


I will argue this from a biological/genetic aspect. The ONLY thing a boy or girl should feel without societal pressure or indoctrination is the will to reproduce as the sex they are. Everything else is taught. When you are born you have no concept of being male or female. Hormonal changes would make you want to bear children or implant them The rest is learned behaviors.

Wearing a dress is taught in Western society as being a thing girls do. Now that in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but society has also taught us that females are lower than males in society, thus any male who enjoys something considered (by society again) as feminine or female must be "less" that a dominant male.

Guilt, also, is a learned societal response. You are guilty and thus made to feel bad when you violate a societal "norm". Classic here is masturbation. In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with it. BUT you are told that you should not do it "because". So children, in most Western societies again, are conflicted by the pleasure and the corresponding guilt they are told to feel. You can make a real good correlation with cross dressing on that but that is another thread.

Let's look at this logically. WHY are dresses (or anything we wear) inherently the realm of a male or female? Is there a biological mechanism that says "skirts are for females because they need to wear them to a) survive, b) reproduce"? As living beings we have just those two things that are required. You need to survive and technically you only need survive long enough to reproduce. Nothing more. Put a pink collar on a male dog and is he less male? No. Does he feel shame? Not until you make him feel shame and he does not understand why. It is a collar. If it has spikes it does not make him tougher, if it has rhinestones it does not make him weaker. But you say "oh you are a bad dog, wearing a girls collar" in the right tone and he will cower. It is an inferred and learned response.

To get even deeper here, things that are pleasurable are often associated with guilt and that was inferred and pressed on society by (wait for it) religion. Certain religions LOVE to make everyone feel that pleasure in any manner is bad. Why? Who knows? Mostly because if you are happy you are less likely to want to worship someone who promises things will get better...after you die.

Who made up the rules that certain clothing is male or female? Society (and even more so those who are in charge and want to remain in charge). In this case that was always a MALE role. Think about it. Why are skirts advantageous for others to wear for males? It makes it harder to do things that 100 years ago were required to survive. THus, the male is needed to do things that they have made more difficult for someone wearing a skirt to do. You will find it difficult to do physical things in a skirt without showing your privates (which of course is another societal no no...we all got em, we all want them, but DON'T show them).

The guilt you (we) feel when dressing or afterwards is learned, not innate. It is very much an offshoot of society and specifically imparted upon you by those who seek to keep certain segments of the rest of society in a lower status. You may argue which segment of society has made it worse, power or religion (wait that was redundant wasn't it?). But it is a learned response.

[Foxglove]

I will argue this from a biological/genetic aspect.

OK, Lorileah. I didn't really want to argue this, but if you do, OK, I'll have a go. I'd just ask you to bear this in mind: I'm not absolutely convinced that what I'm saying here is true. Let's just say that I'm not convinced it's untrue. It's something I want to keep my mind open about.


The ONLY thing a boy or girl should feel without societal pressure or indoctrination is the will to reproduce as the sex they are. Everything else is taught.

Yes, but you see, if you're saying that we are taught to feel guilty and ashamed, whereas I'm wondering if guilt and shame might not be at least partly instinctive in us, here you're making a point in favor of my case. Is it not possible that boys and girls instinctively feel they have a role in life--and I'm not talking about a societal role, but a biological one: a role to reproduce and look after your children, e.g.?


Our bodies have a physiological response to things we think are bad which is something that helps us to survive. We cannot, however, distinguish between things that are bad because they are physically dangerous (crossing the street against the lights) and things that are bad because they are socially dangerous (crossdressing).


And here Eryn's giving another reason as to why we might instinctively feel uneasy about what we're doing. When a boy puts on a dress, he knows he's doing something that sets him apart from everybody else. He could feel that's a dangerous thing to do.


When you are born you have no concept of being male or female.

True, but you quickly acquire it--and without having to be taught it. I've read that it's been shown that within a few months a baby learns to distinguish "Mommy" from "Daddy". We learn for ourselves to perceive differences between the sexes.


Wearing a dress is taught in Western society as being a thing girls do. Now that in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but society has also taught us that females are lower than males in society, thus any male who enjoys something considered (by society again) as feminine or female must be "less" that a dominant male.

Sorry, Lorileah, this is something that is said over and over and over and over again on this forum, and I don't buy it. Growing up in the 50's and 60's, I was never taught that women were beneath me. It's something that I never believed or felt within me. I may have had bad attitudes about women in various ways, but believing that they were inferior to me wasn't one of them. It wasn't part of my culture. The notion that ethnic minorities were beneath me was. But not women.

And I really wonder how many people on this forum grew up believing that women were beneath them. I'm not the oldest person on this forum by any means, but I'd be older than most. The inferiority of women wasn't a part of my culture, and I wonder for how of our members it was. Yes, you can say that "society" may have tried to teach us that, the idea was out there, but people don't necessarily swallow absolutely everything that society tries to teach us. E.g., the Catholic heirarchy may insist that shops opening on Sunday is wrong, but if people want to shop on Sunday (which they do), they simply ignore the heirarchy.

Finally, if we accept the notion that CDing guys are frowned on because they're "lowering themselves", then transguys should be admired because they're moving up. Yet transguys also have huge problems gaining acceptance from society. I don't think it has anything at all to do with moving up or down: I think it's simply the case that cispeople don't really like transpeople because we're weird.


Guilt, also, is a learned societal response. You are guilty and thus made to feel bad when you violate a societal "norm". Classic here is masturbation. In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with it. BUT you are told that you should not do it "because". So children, in most Western societies again, are conflicted by the pleasure and the corresponding guilt they are told to feel. You can make a real good correlation with cross dressing on that but that is another thread.

I'm not sure of this, either. E.g., my parents never taught me it was wrong to masturbate. I suppose they thought I'd never figure that out. It's one of the few things they never warned me about. Even so, I always felt guilty about masturbating. If we're into sheer speculation here (and that's all I'm doing) wouldn't it be easy to find a reason for a boy instinctively finding a reason to feel guilty about masturbating? "I shouldn't be wasting this. I should be using it to get a woman pregnant."


Let's look at this logically. WHY are dresses (or anything we wear) inherently the realm of a male or female? Is there a biological mechanism that says "skirts are for females because they need to wear them to a) survive, b) reproduce"? As living beings we have just those two things that are required. You need to survive and technically you only need survive long enough to reproduce. Nothing more. Put a pink collar on a male dog and is he less male? No. Does he feel shame? Not until you make him feel shame and he does not understand why. It is a collar. If it has spikes it does not make him tougher, if it has rhinestones it does not make him weaker. But you say "oh you are a bad dog, wearing a girls collar" in the right tone and he will cower. It is an inferred and learned response.

To get even deeper here, things that are pleasurable are often associated with guilt and that was inferred and pressed on society by (wait for it) religion. Certain religions LOVE to make everyone feel that pleasure in any manner is bad. Why? Who knows? Mostly because if you are happy you are less likely to want to worship someone who promises things will get better...after you die.

Who made up the rules that certain clothing is male or female? Society (and even more so those who are in charge and want to remain in charge). In this case that was always a MALE role. Think about it. Why are skirts advantageous for others to wear for males? It makes it harder to do things that 100 years ago were required to survive. THus, the male is needed to do things that they have made more difficult for someone wearing a skirt to do. You will find it difficult to do physical things in a skirt without showing your privates (which of course is another societal no no...we all got em, we all want them, but DON'T show them).

The guilt you (we) feel when dressing or afterwards is learned, not innate. It is very much an offshoot of society and specifically imparted upon you by those who seek to keep certain segments of the rest of society in a lower status. You may argue which segment of society has made it worse, power or religion (wait that was redundant wasn't it?). But it is a learned response.

Finally, all the rest of this is simply irrelevant to me--and maybe to lots of other people as well. The idea that anything pleasurable is sinful is something that I grew up with, but it wouldn't have anything to do with my CDing. I wasn't doing it for pleasure. The idea that clothing can be functional, that it can help those in power remain in power--OK, I won't argue with that, but that never entered into my thinking. When I was a young and burgeoning CDer, I wasn't old enough to think about who was in charge and what I needed to do to be a part of that group.

No, I was doing what I was doing because I wanted to be female. And in that fact alone I believe there's plenty of reason to feel guilt and shame for reasons I've given above. For me CDing isn't about clothes. It's about wanting to be and to be perceived as female. That's why when I dress I always give myself the works. Without makeup, e.g., I look awful. Makeup makes a huge difference for me. So I always take the time to do it.

Basically, what you're doing here is giving some good "intellectual" arguments as to why we feel guilt and shame. For the most part, I'd more or less go along with what you're saying. All I'm saying here is that I'm not convinced that's all there is to it. I think that we could have some very deep, biological reasons for feeling uneasy about ourselves. Again, I'm not insisting I'm right about this. It's something I wonder about, and I'm not yet convinced that it's entirely wrong.

Annabelle

[Nichola]

I used to feel guilt & shame for the way I am & it took me a long time to get past that.
I do still struggle sometimes though.

In my case, maybe it's down to how I was brought up. My parents, especially my father was not tolerant to say the least & wasn't shy about imposing his views.
I guess I was scared to disappoint them & became very introverted about who I was, so when I dressed it became my guilty secret.
The guilt feelings associated with dressing continued for years, until I finally accepted it's just the way I am.

I hope you can get past these feelings & be more comfortable with it, I know it's not easy.
Good luck.

[Rogina B]

You aren't doing anything wrong by wearing clothes and feeling feminine...Life is way to short to feel guilty about that!You'll have the clothes on in a day or two..

[Nikki_C]

No reason to feel guilty. Society is slowly come to accept individualism and self expression. I have great hope for the future!

Think of it this way, it was not acceptable for women to wear pants/trousers until the mid 20th century in the US (not so sure about the rest of the world).
Maybe in another 50 years, it will be a common place that men wear dresses.

[Stephanie47]

I went back through your posts and noticed you are 58. I suspect you are going through a period of self examination. As we age it seems we start to think about "What could have been." Self examination of the effect of cross dressing may have had on your life is totally normal. There may have been decisions you made one way over another because you're a cross dresser. I suspect you may be examining other choices you made that do not concern cross dressing.

Since you are single there is no reason for you to hide from yourself. Accept who you are. I accepted who I am a long time ago. Sure, life would have been a lot less complicated, if I was not a cross dresser. But, alas, I am. Enjoy the peace and tranquility it brings you.

[Lorileah]

And here Eryn's giving another reason as to why we might instinctively feel uneasy about what we're doing. When a boy puts on a dress, he knows he's doing something that sets him apart from everybody else. He could feel that's a dangerous thing to do. In what manner? How would dressing make you feel (without having societal pressure) in danger? You could trip on your high heels?



I've read that it's been shown that within a few months a baby learns to distinguish "Mommy" from "Daddy". We learn for ourselves to perceive differences between the sexes. Gee you just made an argument against same sex adoption or having children at all. I hope this doesn't get out of the forum, ammunition like that could set back the whole movement :heehee:


But to the crux of this reply

Sorry, Lorileah, this is something that is said over and over and over and over again on this forum, and I don't buy it. Growing up in the 50's and 60's, I was never taught that women were beneath me. It's something that I never believed or felt within me. I may have had bad attitudes about women in various ways, but believing that they were inferior to me wasn't one of them. It wasn't part of my culture. The notion that ethnic minorities were beneath me was. But not women. and the following paragraphs are really not the point. What YOU or I feel about societal hierarchy is not important. We are a minority in many ways. How those in power perceived or represented others to the masses is the point. You talk about being older, and like you I am in that area, but if you look closely, the younger people all around have less guilt and more acceptance of many things. This is because us old geezers have learned to teach our children that certain mores are NOT right. But the OP is in our generation where having learned opinions about things was the common ideal. And it was power that drove these things. Women (and again I am with you that I have never seen women as lesser than men) were kept in a lower status by men for hundreds of years. They did this with many controls. How you could dress was one of them. Hopefully this will not recur as we have evolved now to know better.

Still guilt is a human learned emotion. Guilt is taught in different societies as different things. Some societies have no qualms about killing. Other have strict rules. Animals don't sit back and share food or feel bad if they eat it all. Yet we have been taught to share and if we have a "lion's" share we are guilty (I just had to say that :)). Stealing a cookie, you are taught to feel badly, even though no one was harmed in the act. Guilt is a learned emotion. You really don't feel guilty stepping in front of a moving car, you may feel stupid, lucky, angry, but guilty? I feel guilty when I win a sporting event and I shouldn't, but I worry about how badly the loser feels. Thus as you can see I would never be a great professional athlete. But that was a learned emotion. In real life, you should want to best the others. Maybe it is an extension of my being taught that having pleasure is bad. Because I really like winning


I'm not sure of this, either. E.g., my parents never taught me it was wrong to masturbate. I suppose they thought I'd never figure that out. It's one of the few things they never warned me about. Even so, I always felt guilty about masturbating. Maybe not your parents but the local clergy or your peers? Learning doesn't always have to be parental. But I would venture that somewhere along the line someone; parent, uncle, brother, the clergy, a teacher...someone you held in high esteem, told you that dresses on boys were bad. And then you felt pleasure and that triggered guilt. Being TS you may have had a different pleasure than many here felt. Theirs was a sexual thrill, yours was "it just feels right".




Basically, what you're doing here is giving some good "intellectual" arguments as to why we feel guilt and shame. For the most part, I'd more or less go along with what you're saying. All I'm saying here is that I'm not convinced that's all there is to it. I think that we could have some very deep, biological reasons for feeling uneasy about ourselves. Again, I'm not insisting I'm right about this. It's something I wonder about, and I'm not yet convinced that it's entirely wrong.

Annabelle

And that is why we have philosophy. Does a tree fall in the woods and does the pope care? :) Having these discussions will make us higher beings in the next life (sorry had to link this to another thread in the forum...:)). Since this thread is realistically preaching to the choir on this forum, the answers have all been "you are not guilty" (by this jury of your peers). However, if you posted this on the Guns and Ammo forum, you would get a totally different set of answers. We should not feel guilty, even if I give in to the fact that guilt has a place in society, for this because it harms no one. It makes you happier with yourself and does not take air or food or life from another being. So why should it make you feel guilty?

So to the OP (and then I will allow Annabelle the final word in our discussion or we can take it to a new thread?) you should not feel guilty. As many have said you are normal and the act itself really has no bearing on society. It makes you happy and it harms no one. :)

[ClosetED]

There are many interesting posts as to possible reasons why YOU feel guilt, but only you can know why. Since you are living alone (not clear if always single or just currently apart from someone) at your age, you could feel guilty that crossdressing has been the reason. You could feel guilty about the money spent, but most can buy things within a limited budget. The most common guess was your belief in societal norms being "right" and you are therefore "wrong" by not following them. But norms have changed over the years. Silk stockings were made for men. Who wore the wigs in the 1700s? If you relieve your stress by eventual sexual self-gratification, then you may be feeling guilt over that. But the 27,000 people who have joined this forum would tell you to not feel guilty but accept who you are and enjoy life.

[Foxglove]

OK, Lorileah, I'll have the last word, and then you can have the final word if you want it.


Our bodies have a physiological response to things we think are bad which is something that helps us to survive. We cannot, however, distinguish between things that are bad because they are physically dangerous (crossing the street against the lights) and things that are bad because they are socially dangerous (crossdressing).



In what manner? How would dressing make you feel (without having societal pressure) in danger? You could trip on your high heels?

No, fears don't have to be specific (or that trivialized). They can be vague and general. A lot of them are. The simple fact that you've set yourself apart, put yourself in a small minority can be frightening. A lot of people live their entire lives trying to make sure they're smack-dab in the mainstream.

So when you set yourself apart, you can be afraid. And that can make you feel you've done wrong. And that can make you feel guilty.



True, but you quickly acquire it--and without having to be taught it. I've read that it's been shown that within a few months a baby learns to distinguish "Mommy" from "Daddy". We learn for ourselves to perceive differences between the sexes.


Gee you just made an argument against same sex adoption or having children at all. I hope this doesn't get out of the forum, ammunition like that could set back the whole movement :heehee:

I was trying to be serious. What you're saying here doesn't follow at all. The point of this study was to show that babies can distinguish between the sexes at a very early age. It doesn't follow from that the a child must have "Mommy" and "Daddy" in his/her life. That's a non-sequitur.




But to the crux of this reply
and the following paragraphs are really not the point. What YOU or I feel about societal hierarchy is not important. We are a minority in many ways. How those in power perceived or represented others to the masses is the point. You talk about being older, and like you I am in that area, but if you look closely, the younger people all around have less guilt and more acceptance of many things. This is because us old geezers have learned to teach our children that certain mores are NOT right. But the OP is in our generation where having learned opinions about things was the common ideal. And it was power that drove these things. Women (and again I am with you that I have never seen women as lesser than men) were kept in a lower status by men for hundreds of years. They did this with many controls. How you could dress was one of them. Hopefully this will not recur as we have evolved now to know better.

I'm not really sure what all this is about. You're saying that we older people have taught our children better. Well, OK. But that's kind of what I was saying. I don't think many people in the Western world view women as inferior any more. And you say that women were kept in a lower status for hundreds of years. OK. But I'm talking about now.

We're saying that CDing among men is seen as wrong because men are demeaning themselves by trying to look like inferior creatures (women). But how can that be the case if we're agreeing that women aren't seen as inferior any more? Whatever about the past, that's not the situation these days.

The real problem with this argument is that we're simply assuming that this is what people think: CDing among men is frowned upon because men are seen as lowering themselves. To begin with, how do we know that's what people actually think? I've never seen any studies that show people think that way.

As I said, this idea is very popular on this forum, but nobody on this forum has ever provided a study that showed that's what people think. We're simply assuming that they do.

This kind of thing is very commonly done: people think they can know what other people are thinking. I just had an argument with a Christian who believes that people are trans by choice. I told him the contrary, but he somehow thinks he knows better than we do what's going on inside us.

You can't read people's minds. If you want to know what they're thinking, you have to ask them. In this case, we need a study asking people, "Do you despise transpeople, and if so, why?" Then look at the reasons given by those who say "Yes". If lots of them are saying, "It's because men are lowering themselves, etc.," then we know what they're thinking. Until then we're simply working with an unfounded assumption.

And we also need to ascertain that society does actually view women as inferior to men. We should remember that half of society is women. How many of them view themselves as inferior to men?

In other words, I don't buy this view because I don't think anybody's ever proven it. I think people on this forum are simply assuming it's true because it seems logical. But what's logical is often wrong.

What we're arguing is this. You're saying that society teaches us to feel guilty. I think that's often the case, but I'm not sure it always is. I'm going by my own experience.

I put on a dress when I was 4. My dad jumped all over me for that. I was taught to feel guilty. But that's not the only thing my dad tried to drill into me. One of the biggies was religion. We went to church every Sunday, we had the Bible in the house, etc., etc. Yet when I was about 15, all of a sudden my faith slipped away. And I never felt guilty about that.

And society tried to teach me lots of other things that I never paid much attention to. I don't own a car, I don't own a TV, I don't read the papers, I don't measure myself by how much I own, etc. I'm an individualist in a lot of ways, and I don't feel any guilt at all about that and never have.

So why have I always felt so much guilt about this one thing (TGism) when I never felt any guilt about anything else my family or society tried to drum into me? Where is that guilt coming from? I think it's coming from me--and trying to say that it's coming from society, in my case, I think is a cop-out. I never wanted to deal with it, so I blame it on somebody else. I dealt with a lot of other things. I could have dealt with this one if I wanted to.

Is this just me, or would it be true of lots of other transpeople? I don't know. To get an answer to that you'd have to do a lot of serious digging into a lot of personal psychologies, and that wouldn't be easy to do.

So this is a possibility I'm raising. I don't claim it to be a universal truth. Maybe I'll think about it some more.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Nathalie Antoinette]

The journey to self acceptance is sometimes a tough one. The fact that you are aware of your feelings, and how you tend to react to them, is a huge step forward. When we're self-aware, we can learn from our past behaviors and make choices that move us in a different, more positive directions.

[AlexisRaeMoon]

I'll add my thoughts, since this is a topic that is very close to me. I posted another thread about the paranoia I felt it bringing my stuff on a work trip. I'm glad I did. I dressed the first night, looked in the mirror and couldn't stop smiling. Eventually, I decided I should go to bed, and I tried to sleep in my bra and panties. After an hour of fitful sleep, I got up and satisfied the sexual urge, and went back to sleep. A few hours later I woke to paranoid thoughts and guilt. It felt like a panic attack. I started thinking about finding a goodwill box to drop my stuff in. But...it felt so great the night before! So I got up and got dressed. I instantly felt better. I'm know on my third night in a row dressed up, my longest stretch ever. I came really close to a purge again, but experience has see me through this time. I sure the guilt will return but each time I'm better prepare to deal with it. I am on this path with you and wish you the best of luck.
Arianna

[Diversity]

Hi Prescilla,
Not sure why you are having the guilts, especially with the freedom you have to be yourself. Perhaps you should consider talking with a friend or seeing a therapist to get a better insight as to what may be causing the guilty feelings you are having. I wish you well with this and hope you are able to find the inner peace you are seeking.
Di

[becky77]

It's a matter of self-doubt and years of feeling "different".
I went through those periods (too many of them) where I would buy an outfit and dress and love the moment only to feel so guilty and strange at the end. Then swearing to never do it again, I purged only to have regret for having spent and wasted all the time and money.
Then comes the desire again...and the roller coaster climbs to the top.

Finally I accepted myself and who I am...and this is a big part of me that can be satisfied no other way. Now there are no more regrets, no more purges, no more guilt...just ME.
We must reach that point of accepting who we are to place all those other feelings in the trash instead of the items we love and need to express who we are.

So very true for me also, once I accepted who I was rather than keep punishing myself the guilt just drifted away. It took some therapy and this forum helps a lot, knowing there are so many people like me gives me strength, it's obviously not that uncommon to be transgendered. There came a point when I stopped treating it like another part of me, almost thinking of it like a split personality and now I just think it's me, all of it makes the person I am and i'm not apologising for myself anymore.

Personally I think it's never too late for some therapy, is it not worth it if it can potentially help deal with your negative feelings?

[Beverley Sims]

I think you have to accept who you are and embrace it without feeling you are an oddity.
You are not, so go and start enjoying yourself and read up on others good times and getting out.

[darla_g]

I think a lot of people experience guilt sometime in their life over crossdressing. Until one accepts their own need for dressing perhaps with some reasonable bounds they will experience it. You need to sort it out yourself before a SO ever accepts it.

[CassandraSmith]

Hi girls having a bad day.
Recently got the final parcel. Now I have my new heels,choice of 2 new dresses and all the sexy stuff. Can anyone explain why what was to be a great night turns into another period of self disgust. After so many years it still happens. At least I have sense enough to hold on to my purchases after many costly purges. I live alone and have freedom to dress as I wish, so what is my problem.

Love Prescilla

What is the guilt based on? Our generation is particularly guilt-ridden over this activity but I think that the new one is much less so. They have so many choices!

[Michelle (Oz)]

Question, can intellect overcome guilt?

I see it as my intellect that used to cause my guilt. I still think about my outings dressed when in male mode and wonder about why I do it, why take the risks, why expose myself to potential (but never suffered) ridicule.

The need to dress is so much deeper than our intellect - it is a fundmental part of our being. It is who we are. So our intellect just needs to accept that its view of the 'norm' just won't work for us.

[suzy1]

I see it as my intellect that used to cause my guilt. I still think about my outings dressed when in male mode and wonder about why I do it, why take the risks, why expose myself to potential (but never suffered) ridicule.

The need to dress is so much deeper than our intellect - it is a fundmental part of our being. It is who we are. So our intellect just needs to accept that its view of the 'norm' just won't work for us.



What I ment was, we can use our intellect [our intelligence] to recognise that we have nothing to feel guilty about by crossdressing.
Guilt is something we [should] feel when we do something wrong, steal, lie, cheat, and so on.

What is normal Michelle? Are you saying I am not normal? No, I am normal, just different from other normal people that don’t crossdress.

If you feel guilt then you believe that what you do is somehow wrong. You are not using your intellect to help you to recognise that you are not doing anything wrong.

Hope that makes sense,

SUZY

[Michelle (Oz)]

I understand your explanation Suzy and your point of view. Mine is a different point and goes to the heart of why I believe some feel guilt at dressing.

My intellect has been conditioned to think as a male over many years. Dressing as a female therefore seemed wrong to my intellect, i.e. challenges my view of the 'norm' as agreed by society. It is recognition of my deeper need to dress that gives me the release from guilt and the freedom to express myself.

[Amanda M]

There are two words in the English language which are much over-used -they are "should" and "must". Often used by our peers to encourage us to conform.

You have read a lot advice in relation to your original posting, but that advice comes from people who have a vested interest in their opinions, naturally enough. Otherwise, like me, they would not be on this forum.

What I suggest is that you would benefit greatly from discussing this with a therapist who is non-judgmental and "outside" of your dilemma.I'm sure that a clear, oprn and unbiased discussion would really help you deal with this. Nobody can tell you what to do - the best anyone can do is to help you find options and help you decide what is best for you.

Best, Amanda.

[adrienner99]

I think it is very hard for most of us to shed the guilt. We did, after all, grow up male. And from birth were pressured to be tough, confrontational, to fight, and that anything effeminate was weakness...It was all BS--just someone else's projections of what we were "supposed" to be. But we were young, and we bought into it. We had to survive in the male world. There may be no need for us to feel guilt as we put on lipstick and perfume and high heels--but I think most of us do anyway.