Deliberately "NOT" passing.

[UNDERDRESSER]

I know that some of you don't try to pass. I've been contemplating going out crossdressed, but not trying to pass. In my case, I'm planning on starting out with a kilt, and finding what sort of response I get. Note, I'm planning on a hiking kilt, it's fairly obviously not a traditional kilt, but the cut and fit are distinctly different from a regular skirt. If I can deal with the reactions I get from that, i'm planning on a skirt, somewhat utilitarian, pockets, wash and wear type of thing, "hiking" skirt if you will. I'm not going to wear breast forms, or a wig, I might wear something unconventional as a top, maybe an embroidered Indian style tunic. I'd also like to wear opaque stockings, leggings, or thigh highs. The point is, I just want to be able to wear a different form of clothing, but not mimic the look of a female.

How many of you do this? How many of you do the whole thing, in respect to clothing, but don't try to hide the fact you're male? i.e. stubble, beard, etc.

[ArleneRaquel]

Never, never, never. I may not " pass " as often that I would like, but always wear female hair, and conceal as much as I can with foundation and concealer.

[Cristi]

I own a few kilts and have worn them quite often. (two 'hiking' kilts of a more traditional tartan material, and two 'utilikilts'.) Strangely, I get more attention (that I notice) when wearing a kilt than I do when fully dressed as a woman! But in no way has it been bad. I've done quite a bit of hiking and camping in a kilt, and also wear one often for yard work. I've never gotten a negative reaction.

I've considered, when the temperature starts going down, adding tights under the kilt, but don't know if that would be crossing a line as far as acceptance goes. I DO, however, have nice wool knee socks that look great with it! :)

I've always got my eye out for a nice top to go with the kilt (so far I've just worn a tshirt). Something like a loose fitting linen top would be nice, but I'd avoid going too 'feminine' with it.

[justmetoo]

To the OP - that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do and i think it would be great if more guys did that. It could help break down some barriers and give more people more options. That said, so far when I've gone out I've dressed to not stand out, to blend in as much as i can. And I do enjoy the hair, makeup, etc. The whole "femme' package as it were. Freedom of expression should apply to everyone, whether that's someone fully crossdressed to appear as the "opposite' gender, partially dresssed and not trying to "pass", dressed as their own gender/birth sex, etc. As long as it's not obscene and doesn't hurt anyone it's all good. :)
Good luck to you! I hope you don't "pass"! :D

[MonctonGirl]

A man going out in women's clothing and not attempting to pass is making one of the following two statements:

1. I am doing this for a joke. ( And people will joke with you or give you a hard time in that spirit )

or

2. I have anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment and am deliberately seeking to bother people with my presence and seeking negative reactions and you can expect confrontation from me because I am insane and don't know it...best to avoid me like a plague


Going out in a kilt - lots of Scots & Brits do it - but they have an appropriate top garment ( eg Blazer ) and socks. You will not get reactions from the kilt with which you can gauge reaction to full-femme.

EDIT:

I've thought alot about what you wrote - maybe you feel it's "baby steps" for your coming out
but I think it is baby steps in the wrong direction and you may be too confused to see that doing it
"half-assed" and failing on purpose is worse than trying your best and worrying about passing.

You may be so afraid to fail that you are inclined to go that way to feel safe and not feel rejection
from trying your hardest to look feminine and not succeeding. Maybe you just need some help
from someone who can pick out a good outfit and do you makeup and consult on hair, etc.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Well im a Scot & could have worn a kilt many years ago. & nothing would have been said many of our people with in our regeon are Scots, im allso a Sottish member of our Soc,

as a woman ill be wearing for our Scottish week end a cream long skirt a cream blouse & a tartan sash plus my bonnet known as a Glengarry with the tartan around it with a tassal on the top., most of us with in our Edwardian group are women , we do have about 5 men who come & they dress quite smart as well.

I would like to say had you lived here in New Zealand in the south isl youd be more wellcome as to wearing kilts or even a skirt as a male it would not be strange .

I on the other hand am a woman so for me being accepted is quite easy yet i dont show the facial features of a woman nore can i , mind you a lot of work & talking plus being interviewed for T V & papers helped me, in being accepted,

Mind you , youd have ta have an acsent to pass here, a right southern roll your rrrrrr.s he he ... ill let ya off if ya do come over, Aye. my family comes from Kilmarnock , Scotland, & with the name of Loch-head. means Head of the Loch.

Id say youll not be able to say it correctly though, its similar to the plane commany lockheed, said like Lo- heed you miss the ch out, oh well history lesson over,

...noeleena...

[ReineD]

We don't often see men who wear skirts, but I quite like the look. I think it looks rather rugged, if it's done right, and if the guy has a lot of self-assurance. I guess the deciding factor is no attempt at having feminine legs, with shoes that are unmistakably male. I've posted pics in many threads, but here are a few more:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_glFJiPFcSvQ/SSF-bWrzWlI/AAAAAAAAANQ/mn3cIGh6U5Y/s1600-h/Marc-Jacobs-skirt.jpg
http://owlposse.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/menskirtBostonCom.jpg
http://colleenanderson.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/skirts2.jpg
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2009/05/3108266520_42a9fdae22.jpg
http://www.northwestcoin.ca/irenat01.jpg
http://www.dividedbytruth.org/images/sissy_in_skirt.jpg

I think these looks would raise a different kind of eyebrow:

http://realmenhavespoken.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/menskirt1.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTiEVyqGBxvdWSR_u3MpOAxWIwtvVT4B lASLl1ovYQbMgA0XqXx8fAGC-pT
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jwwhKpc9BNQ/T5GJ_WiPLLI/AAAAAAAAASk/yITnYZ6yRJ8/s640/P1030521.JPG
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000362711/polls_man_in_skirt_3738_747683_answer_3_xlarge.jpe g

The first group portrays men who are not attempting to cross-dress or look feminine, but who are attempting to redefine men's styles. The men in the second group are still presenting as men, but they do cross into the feminine realm with the way they've put their look together. I think that people would be confused by this in a different way than they would be, just seeing some guy who wears something that looks like a kilt.


But, if you live in a conservative area, be prepared to raise eyebrows just the same:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/talendor/skirt400.jpg

[susan54]

I frequently wear skirts in public as a man. Usually this is for comfort in very hot weather - you need something that wafts in the breeze. I de-hair my legs and wear chunky sandals (my toes have very conspicuous Minx on them) and I get very few reactions, none of them negative (most of them are versions of "Wow" from both genders or "I love the skirt" from women). In cooler conditions I wear opaque tights and usually ballet type pumps but occasionally heels with fairly robust heels (slender heels would look too feminine). My legs look good, so WTH.

I have a kilt but do not wear it at present due to the hair-free legs. Wearing a kilt makes you feel very masculine, and you end up walking with a swagger. But you DO get comments wearing a kilt, especially in England! If it winds 'em up this is encouragement to wear it more frequently in England.

[willnotwill]

This is exactly the kind of animosity I was concerned about when joining this forum. I am not a wannabe woman. I'm a guy in a dress (or whatever).
MonctonGirls divisive comments are not helpful. True TVism is neither a joke nor an anti-social personality disorder. The intent is not to annoy people. And frankly, unless you show up in church or some formal situation, you're unlikely to do so any more than the gg dressed as a **** or your typical "people of Wal*Mart attire.

[Jamie001]

a man going out in women's clothing and not attempting to pass is making one of the following two statements:

1. I am doing this for a joke. ( and people will joke with you or give you a hard time in that spirit )

or

2. I have anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment and am deliberately seeking to bother people with my presence and seeking negative reactions and you can expect confrontation from me because i am insane and don't know it...best to avoid me like a plague


going out in a kilt - lots of scots & brits do it - but they have an appropriate top garment ( eg blazer ) and socks. You will not get reactions from the kilt with which you can gauge reaction to full-femme.

Edit:

I've thought alot about what you wrote - maybe you feel it's "baby steps" for your coming out
but i think it is baby steps in the wrong direction and you may be too confused to see that doing it
"half-assed" and failing on purpose is worse than trying your best and worrying about passing.

You may be so afraid to fail that you are inclined to go that way to feel safe and not feel rejection
from trying your hardest to look feminine and not succeeding. Maybe you just need some help
from someone who can pick out a good outfit and do you makeup and consult on hair, etc.

i am very insulted by this post!! :eek::brolleyes:

There are some members such as myself that are feminine males and we incorporate feminine items into our everyday presentation. We don't pass, nor do we feel the need to pass. To insinuate that we have some type of personality disorder is downright insulting!!!


We don't often see men who wear skirts, but I quite like the look. I think it looks rather rugged, if it's done right, and if the guy has a lot of self-assurance. I guess the deciding factor is no attempt at having feminine legs, with shoes that are unmistakably male. I've posted pics in many threads, but here are a few more:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_glFJiPFcSvQ/SSF-bWrzWlI/AAAAAAAAANQ/mn3cIGh6U5Y/s1600-h/Marc-Jacobs-skirt.jpg
http://owlposse.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/menskirtBostonCom.jpg
http://colleenanderson.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/skirts2.jpg
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2009/05/3108266520_42a9fdae22.jpg
http://www.northwestcoin.ca/irenat01.jpg
http://www.dividedbytruth.org/images/sissy_in_skirt.jpg

I think these looks would raise a different kind of eyebrow:

http://realmenhavespoken.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/menskirt1.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTiEVyqGBxvdWSR_u3MpOAxWIwtvVT4B lASLl1ovYQbMgA0XqXx8fAGC-pT
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jwwhKpc9BNQ/T5GJ_WiPLLI/AAAAAAAAASk/yITnYZ6yRJ8/s640/P1030521.JPG
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000362711/polls_man_in_skirt_3738_747683_answer_3_xlarge.jpe g

The first group portrays men who are not attempting to cross-dress or look feminine, but who are attempting to redefine men's styles. The men in the second group are still presenting as men, but they do cross into the feminine realm with the way they've put their look together. I think that people would be confused by this in a different way than they would be, just seeing some guy who wears something that looks like a kilt.


But, if you live in a conservative area, be prepared to raise eyebrows just the same:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/talendor/skirt400.jpg

Reine,

The idea is not not look completely male by adding feminine items such as skirts and shoes. Not all men want to look rugged. Where does this notion come from? Some men want the freedom to look both masculine and feminine at the same time! The idea is to break-down barriers regarding what is acceptable for males and females by blending, much like women have done in their incorporation of many male fashion items (see articles in Cosmo and other magazines over the last 10 years).


This is exactly the kind of animosity I was concerned about when joining this forum. I am not a wannabe woman. I'm a guy in a dress (or whatever).
MonctonGirls divisive comments are not helpful. True TVism is neither a joke nor an anti-social personality disorder. The intent is not to annoy people. And frankly, unless you show up in church or some formal situation, you're unlikely to do so any more than the gg dressed as a **** or your typical "people of Wal*Mart attire.

I sympathize and completely agree with you. I am very insulted by MonctonGirls comments. :Angry3: I would like to see the mods delete her insulting post.

[Beverley Sims]

I can see what you want to do even if it is something I would not do I would still talk and associate with you.
Others have been criticized for offering objections, let them have their say and do not be offended by it, a bit like what you are suggesting here and expecting full acceptance. I myself would ask,"Is this just a red rag held in front of a bull"?
Well the bull has charged, wave it on and let us know how you get on. :)
I know you have not replied yet but is it worth arguing?
Go out and do your stuff and let us know the responses.

[Gillian Gigs]

First things first, lighten up everyone! I totally understand where the orginal comments are coming from. Some of us are just guys that happen to like certain types of clothing. Regardless of where or how we all start out, some of us evolve to a point of wanting to wear the clothes regularly. If I could live in the "perfect world" I would wear lingerie, skirt, and hose every day, no passing attempt. I would wear a guy shirt, and good comfortable guy shoes, not that I don't have heels, it's just easier walking in sneakers. Yes, from the outside I would look like a guy with a skirt and stockings on, SO WHAT. No one is looking to get smart ass comments whether we are out in public, or on this site, we are all looking for the freedom to express ourselves, and clothing is a type of freedom expression.

Underdresser, you go guy/girl whatever you choose and best of luck getting your freedom!!!!!!!

[Lynn Marie]

This is a forum for cross dressers. If you just want to wear kilts outdoors, then why are you here? A million Scots men wear kilts and look good doing it. It's already been done and done well. Time to get dressed, step into your heels, paint your face, and crown your glory with some big Texas hair and step out and strut your stuff!

[reb.femme]

I sympathize and completely agree with you. I am very insulted by MonctonGirls comments. :Angry3: I would like to see the mods delete her insulting post.

Hi Jamie,

MonctonGirl rasies a legitimate point of view, if not one that you can agree with. Maybe the reply is harsh, but how much it plays out in real life is yet to be discovered. I personally would not go the way you are going, but then conversely, you would not follow my path,....quite understandably.

However, to argue for personal freedom of expression and then to ask the mods to delete a reply is a little contradictory. That's why we have the ignore button. That way, you don't have to see a particular posters comments or posts, unless someone else quotes them that is!

Rebecca (Today's Devil's Advocate)

[MsJanessa]

Never, never, never. I may not " pass " as often that I would like, but always wear female hair, and conceal as much as I can with foundation and concealer.

Ditto--what she said

[kimdl93]

Not me. I don't want to attract curiosity or attention by going out. I seek the opposite...the opportunity to literally blend in.

[UNDERDRESSER]

Thanks for all your replies, even Moncton Girl's, though I think you didn't get my point.

I have never fully dressed, even at home. I am not sure what, if anything, I will get out of it. I intend to try it, with my GF's help, just to see if it does antything for me, and because I'm curious as to how good I can do.

As far as the going out "half dressed" I find I like wearing a skirt and stockings at home, I want to experiment with how it feels out and about. I have taken a walk like this, and it feels more comfortable than pants or shorts. If I can do so without it turning into confrontations, then why not? I also want to be more colorful, I want to wear stuff that is a bit more spectacular than I'm used to. But I still want to be myself, not a female.

This is close to the look I have in my head.

http://www.forestcityfashionista.com/2010/01/young-man-in-skirt-queen-street-west.html

Maybe with something from here
http://www.monarch-garments.com/tunics.asp
or here
http://www.vintagetrends.com/Vintage/thumbnails.asp?mode=all&MC=Vintage&CA=Men&SC=Shirts&ST=Ethnic&SS=

The "problem" such as it is, with this forum, is that some of us don't understand that crossdressing is a very wide umbrella term. There are a thousand different reasons we do this thing. Yours isn't the only one. it isn't even the only one you'll have.

[Aloha Jayne]

I just wanna be me. This is obviously a hot topic. But I'm with the OP on this. I still have my goatee. I would shave it off but the SO likes it. And I've never tried wigs or make-up but I'm not against it and want to some day. While the thought of passing and being treated as a woman in public is very intoxicating, I just wanna be me. If that means wearing a cute top, and a skirt with my nails done and some accessories with no make-up or wig, then that's what I want.

Yes the public gets freaky about it. I find that they perceive me as:
1. a total loon
2. so effing rich I don't care what they think
3. I know something they don't.

And in each of these cases, I get a lot of respect because you don't want to mess with any of the three.

I like where you're going with this underdresser. You do what you want and everyone else can go stick their head in the sand. ^_^

[UNDERDRESSER]

I just wanna be me. This is obviously a hot topic. But I'm with the OP on this. I still have my goatee. I would shave it off but the SO likes it. And I've never tried wigs or make-up but I'm not against it and want to some day. While the thought of passing and being treated as a woman in public is very intoxicating, I just wanna be me. If that means wearing a cute top, and a skirt with my nails done and some accessories with no make-up or wig, then that's what I want.

Yes the public gets freaky about it. I find that they perceive me as:
1. a total loon
2. so effing rich I don't care what they think
3. I know something they don't.

And in each of these cases, I get a lot of respect because you don't want to mess with any of the three.

I like where you're going with this underdresser. You do what you want and everyone else can go stick their head in the sand. ^_^Love it! Though of course, you have to have confidence!

[Wildaboutheels]

Very interesting thread. It looks to me like a "normal" person could stumble onto this thread and easily get the impression that there is a right way and wrong to CD? [based on some of the responses] Where can I get a copy of this RULEBOOK?

According to MANY of you, a [small] man who wears female running shoes [simply because they fit better] IS a CDer. I would love to know what the CDing RULEBOOK says he must/should wear with those shoes? Do the running shoes mean he does not need to be carrying a purse, or allow him to wear little or no makeup?

What about the 5'11", 250 pound woman who CHOOSES to wear men's pants. She too, is a CDer according to most of you. What does the CDing RULEBOOK say about what else she HAS TO wear?

I know WOMEN who will argue to the death that high heels should NEVER be worn with jeans.

Are THESE women ^^^^ right or wrong?

Or... can the answer to that question be found in a different rulebook?

[LadyPilot]

There are times when I try to pass then there are times when I just love the clothes. I see no big deal either way it is society's problem not mine or ours. BTW; I have said this before and will say again that I will be more than happy to be any ot you ladies wingman and take all the flak that comes our way. We all deserve to be happy so live the life you want that makes you happy.

Finally, You probably heard some of the alternative lifestyle phrase's "just because you like women don't hate because I am a man" or vise versa. Well to all in this wonderful group "Don't hate me because I am a man who dresses like a woman".

Love to all

[ReineD]

Reine,

The idea is not not look completely male by adding feminine items such as skirts and shoes. Not all men want to look rugged. Where does this notion come from? Some men want the freedom to look both masculine and feminine at the same time! The idea is to break-down barriers regarding what is acceptable for males and females by blending, much like women have done in their incorporation of many male fashion items (see articles in Cosmo and other magazines over the last 10 years).

I know, sorry. I was attempting to show what men who wear skirts might get away with, vs. not. I'm looking at it from the average onlooker's viewpoint, if it is important for a CDer to not seem too "out there" under current cultural gender-norms. Also, there was a recent thread where some members said their aim was not to look feminine but to wear skirts, and so I posted pics of a look that might work for this, with the idea that skirts do not necessarily need to be feminine (i.e. kilts or utility skirts).

If it is important for you to incorporate femininity without presenting as a woman (a look that is closer to the second set of pics that I posted), you need to be prepared to get stared at even more in my opinion than just wearing a utility kilt, or even to be seen as gay. I know that men who wish to incorporate femininity in their appearance are not necessarily gay, but I'm afraid this is just how most people see the men who attempt to feminize their legs, or their nails, or wear heels or incorporate other decidedly feminine items of clothing all while presenting as men. But, if this doesn't matter to you, then all is good. :)

Personally, I much prefer going out with my SO when she is fully dressed and presenting as a woman than if s/he should attempt to combine a feminine/masculine look in guy mode. This way, my SO does pass under the radar to most people until she actually interacts with someone, at which time her inner being shines through and the person/people we interact with are more likely to accept who she is rather than think of her as just being "weird", as people do, who look at others from afar. But, this is just me.

[docrobbysherry]

Let's put it this way shall we? Maybe something that we can ALL agree upon?

R there ANY members here who r TG who when dressed completely CAN PASS effectively but choose to go out partially dressed and NOT PASS? I don't think so.

For me, Underesser, the entire point of dressing is to look like as hot a female as possible. Anything less is unsatisfactory. And, since I can't pass, going out dressed like a granny is completely pointless.

Which makes me wonder what u feel the point of your dressing is?

By the way, I wear masks to hide my old, wrinkled, BEARDED face!

[Dawn cd]

I must say I shared (put didn't post) some of monctongirl's reaction, because in-your-face presentation is often perceived as a hostile act. It can be interpreted as: "Look at me. I don't care what you think because you're insignificant." Underdresser could have clarified things by explaining WHY he wanted to appear in public that way. Is it to expand the options of male attire, as some have suggested, or another reason? As someone who also affects an androgynous style, I am not unsympathetic.

[Nikki_C]

Some very interesting and provoking thoughts.

At where I work, there is a fellow that wear a utility kilt almost daily during the summer months. Most folks here do have an initial look but never really have a bad reaction. Most folks here thought it was awesome.

I really appreciated the trail blazers whom are taking down the gender specific clothing barriers that society had placed on us. I wish I have the courage that many of you have shown. May be one day...

While shopping for ski jackets for the boys, my wife had commented that society is very accepting for girl to wear boy clothes but not the other way around.

But I think that barrier is slowly being broken down. Afterall, it is just a piece of cloth that we wrap around ourselves. It is no different than wrapping a towel around the waist after stepping out of the shower!

I have to have more courage...

[Chriscrossed]

Thanks for all your replies...This is close to the look I have in my head...http://www.forestcityfashionista.com/2010/01/young-man-in-skirt-queen-street-west.html...crossdressing is a very wide umbrella term. There are a thousand different reasons we do this thing.

Yep, I share both your point of view and "the look I have in my head". I think women should/could easily find the guy in the link above sexy, confident, articulate and "Manly". A skirt, beard, thick tights, boots & a well fitted shirt; this is comfortable, acceptable and no big deal on Queen St. W.

I guess if I lived in Toronto I would have to get a loft in the fashion district. ;)

[Eryn]

...Not all men want to look rugged. Where does this notion come from?...

Mimi and I were discussing this very thing the other day when strolling through Macy's. We were standing at the boundary of the Men's and Women's department and were rather struck by the difference perceived by simply turning one's head even if you didn't focus on the clothes. On one side was a kalidoscope of color, on the other side a drab combination of blacks, browns, dark blues and dark greens. "Drab" is a perfectly descriptive word, isn't it?

Mimi had the idea that this might stem from the romanticized cowboy era of the 1880s to the 1950s. Good Men were supposed to be rugged and utilitarian, and expressions of style or beauty were definitely considered to be effete. The exception to this were the singing cowboys of the B movie era, but everybody else toed the drab line lest they be considered "sissies."

A film clip to illustrate the point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OaA3LZHbQs

[Jana]

I always shoot for passing and go the whole 9 yards to hide every last trait that I'm male. But, your experiment sounds interesting. Please share your experiences after you go out in your kilt.

[jjjjohanne]

Hello, UNDERDRESSER. I never present female or have breasts when I go out crossdressed. Normally, when I go out, I dress in a skirt and a blouse with pantyhose and feminine shoes. I dress my age and I have been told that I dress like a Librarian. People react to me about like you would react if you saw a Goth, or a person in a wheel chair, or a guy in a skirt. People look, but then go on about their business. When I go out, I try to go out during school hours. I don't want to influence children and I don't want to have my picture immediately posted on some teenager's facebook page. I have had rather good experiences in public. I have posted about most of my outings on this forum. I think a lot of crossdressers want to be a woman when they dress. However, some of us just want to wear the clothes. skirtcafe.org is a site for guys who wear skirts, but who do not want to associate themselves with crossdressers. I tried to post two times on that forum and the moderators struck down my posts saying that they don't want people claiming to be crossdressers and they didn't want me to start my post saying that I started wearing a skirt because I liked wearing pantyhose. So, clearly I am not welcome there. Sometimes I get the feeling that I am not entirely welcome here since I don't want to BE a woman. But, if I can shop at the Home Depot in a skirt and black pantyhose, I can handle feeling out of place in a forum full of guys in skirts and pantyhose!! :)

[Michaela51]

Wow, interesting responses! I thought there would be much more acceptance from a group that is so little accepted in the larger culture.

Underdresser, I understand your position completely. I am a 61 yo male with a mustache and small goatee, hair in dreadlocks. I wear women's clothing every day, both at home and in public, to some degree or another, panties, camisoles, skirts, women's tank tops, leggings, tunics, and scarves. I do this because it reflects my feminine side and with that expression I feel more complete, balanced. But I am inescapably a man and have a masculine side that I am neither ashamed of or try to hide. When in public I receive compliments, mostly from women, but sometimes from men. I also attract attention from those who are obviously upset with my choice of apparel. What they think of me is not my problem, for I am not confused, nor am I some sociopath flaunting my dysfunction. Please continue to express your gender as YOU see fit. You owe it to yourself and all the other people of similar ilk trying to make sense of who they are and how best to express that self. The is another fellow here who is doing a courageous job of his gender expression, JiveTurkeyOnRye. Look him up, check out his blog.

[Wildaboutheels]

The simple REALITY is NO ONE here is a MIND READER. Assuming you "passed" because no one said anything is simply delusional. Nothing wrong with doing your very best to pass or blend in. It's a noble and admirable goal and by looking at many pics here, I would think many here would never get a second glance from Joe Doe public... but... Do people here really think that EVERY person in public who figures it out is going to approach and ask if you are a man in women's clothes? Or want to know why you are wearing women's clothes? They DO NOT CARE. Why should they? Just wear what you want. I think once a person stops worrying about passing, CDing will become a lot more FUN or enjoyable as many can attest to

People do want it to be FUN don't they?

[Diversity]

I want to thank you for your post. It has brought about a great deal of discussion and provided points of view from a variety of perspectives. I replied earlier, but I see my reply did not show up, so I thought I'd reply again. You have brought about a discussion that many of us CD'rs are relating to. I am one of them, quite frankly. I do not want to be a woman. but I do enjoy wearing feminine clothes.
The points of view expressed from the forum actually made me look at things a bit differently, and thus may have been of assistance to you. This is what I love about this forum! Everyone is free to express their thoughts.
What I gained from your post and the subsequent comments was that if I want to wear a bra, blouse, dress, stockings, and high heels then I should set my sights on trying to pass as a woman, and should also wear makeup and a wig to achieve this. This makes sense to me, as if we men are going to enter the women's world to this degree, then we should do it with as best an effort as we can.
If we are going to merely want to don a skirt in public, (which is something I have been wanting to do for a long time - but have not had the courage to do so), then I don't see anything wrong with this. It is only a skirt, which has been presented as a new fashion for years, but has never really taken off. Reine, and your posted links were great examples of this and Reine's gave different persepectives as well with the variety of ways in which men might wear a skirt. For me, a business suit top, skirt and heels did not do it for me (as a man). In my humble and inexperienced opinion, if we are going to wear high heels, then we should go the whole gammit in dressing as a female and strive to pass.
Rather, a nice shirt, skirt and sandles, or hiking boots were acceptable and may very well be a good step toward us gaining our freedom and acceptance as CD'rs in society. I liked the look. In fact, just a few minutes ago, I took my first step and walked across our yard in broad daylight, and went to the mailbox, wearing a polo shirt and a skirt. I do not know if the neighbors saw me, (hope they did not), but I loved the freedom of doing this, which is what you are saying, and I am grateful for the inspiration you gave to me to do this. You got me over the line, and I am now going to build upon this and do what you are saying you are going to do, and try to go out in public in a skirt, dressed, however 'en masculine' :).
Also, if you did not see it, in a post a few days ago, Vanessa went through a drive-in dressed 'en femme', for the first time.
Thanks for your post and I wish you good luck in your endeavors. I would love to hear how you progress and hope you post again.
All the best,
Di

[Jamie001]

I must say I shared (put didn't post) some of monctongirl's reaction, because in-your-face presentation is often perceived as a hostile act. It can be interpreted as: "Look at me. I don't care what you think because you're insignificant." Underdresser could have clarified things by explaining WHY he wanted to appear in public that way. Is it to expand the options of male attire, as some have suggested, or another reason? As someone who also affects an androgynous style, I am not unsympathetic.

Incorporation of feminine items into an otherwise male presentation is not an "in your face presentation". It is a presentation that is identical to when a woman incorporates masculine items into her look. I don't dress to impress other people. If other folks are shallow enough to interpret this as a hostile act, then F*** them! It is not my problem. We need to move toward a society when men can incorporate items from women's fashion just as women incorporate items from male fashion. Only then will we achieve true equality. It is the year 2012 not 1950.

[sissystephanie]

When I got married in the mid 50's my dear wife took over making me passable, and did so very well. She passed away 7 years ago, and I decided than that I was going to quit trying to pass but! But I still wanted to dress enfemme, so I do! I wear skirts and tops, and even an occasional dress, out in public all the time. But I am still definitely a man under the satin and lace. And the amazing thing is that never once has anyone made a rude comment to me!! I have had women, and sometimes even a man, ask me where I bought a certain skirt or top. And I tell them! I am a crossdresser, and I really don't care who knows it. I'm to old for that!!

And BTW, most people don't pay any attention to what you are wearing unless you delibrately make yourself noticable!! I don't do that! I just wear a plain knee length skirt and usually a simple top which may have long sleeves. And my skirts are usually black, brown, or denim!! I do have some satin skirts, but I don't wear those in public!

Good Luck to you!!

[Jamie001]

Some very interesting and provoking thoughts.


While shopping for ski jackets for the boys, my wife had commented that society is very accepting for girl to wear boy clothes but not the other way around.



This is exactly what needs to change!

We can accomplish this by wearing women's items while presenting as a feminine man. When women add masculine items to their look they are not attempting to appear as a man! Therefore to push the envelope like women started doing years ago, we must present as men incorporating feminine items into our look. Completely dressing as a woman will never accomplish this goal.


Mimi and I were discussing this very thing the other day when strolling through Macy's. We were standing at the boundary of the Men's and Women's department and were rather struck by the difference perceived by simply turning one's head even if you didn't focus on the clothes. On one side was a kalidoscope of color, on the other side a drab combination of blacks, browns, dark blues and dark greens. "Drab" is a perfectly descriptive word, isn't it?



You hit the painted nail right on the head! This is the problem that I have with male clothing and shoes! It is all designed to be utilitarian, drab, and colorless. This change in men's clothing occurred during the industrial revolution during an attempt to make all men look like, like a cog in the wheel with no single person standing out. Look at a typical business meeting with everyone dressed in suits and ties. All of the men look the same and there is no variance or self expression. When a man gets married, he gets all dressed-up to look exactly like the waiter than is serving him his food and drink. It is really sad. During George Washington's day, men had a look that was expressive and not boring. How long will men embrace this utilitarian and boring look?


Hello, UNDERDRESSER. I never present female or have breasts when I go out crossdressed. Normally, when I go out, I dress in a skirt and a blouse with pantyhose and feminine shoes. I dress my age and I have been told that I dress like a Librarian. When I go out, I try to go out during school hours. I don't want to influence children

To me this implies that you are ashamed of your look. Have you noticed that goths, folks with tattoos and multiple piercings all over their bodies don't hide from school children. Hiding indicates that you are ashamed of your look and feel that you are doing something wrong. It is important to be comfortable with yourself and it should not be our concern to dress in a stereotypically male fashion for children. Children need to be exposed to other presentation so that they can see that it is ok to be yourself and express who you really are.


Wow, interesting responses! I thought there would be much more acceptance from a group that is so little accepted in the larger culture.

Underdresser, I understand your position completely. I am a 61 yo male with a mustache and small goatee, hair in dreadlocks. I wear women's clothing every day, both at home and in public, to some degree or another, panties, camisoles, skirts, women's tank tops, leggings, tunics, and scarves. I do this because it reflects my feminine side and with that expression I feel more complete, balanced. But I am inescapably a man and have a masculine side that I am neither ashamed of or try to hide. When in public I receive compliments, mostly from women, but sometimes from men. I also attract attention from those who are obviously upset with my choice of apparel. What they think of me is not my problem, for I am not confused, nor am I some sociopath flaunting my dysfunction. Please continue to express your gender as YOU see fit. You owe it to yourself and all the other people of similar ilk trying to make sense of who they are and how best to express that self. The is another fellow here who is doing a courageous job of his gender expression, JiveTurkeyOnRye. Look him up, check out his blog.

AMEN! Thanks for this response. Perfectly stated and excellent advice!! :) :hugs:


I want to thank you for your post. It has brought about a great deal of discussion and provided points of view from a variety of perspectives. In my humble and inexperienced opinion, if we are going to wear high heels, then we should go the whole gammit in dressing as a female and strive to pass.


I disagree with this opinion. Consider the situation of a woman wearing masculine hiking boots. Should she also apply a fake mustache and beard and attempt to pass as a man? This is no different then men wearing high-heels. Please see http://www.hhplace.org for an example of men that wear all types of high-heels as men.

[sharonlb]

In my personal life I tend to be lazy, so the act of dressing without the wig and makeup appealed to me. Then I actually went out a couple of different times. While I didn't get any negative feedback I didn't feel right. If anything it was the most nervous I've ever been while crossdressed. I gave it a shot, but it wasn't for me. I'm glad I tried it, though. I learned a little bit about what I can handle. It gave me some comfort the next time I went out dressed the whole nine yards.

[Roberta Marie]

This evening my wife, son and I went to a concert. I was wearing a nice dress, hose and heels, makeup and my hair (some natural some added) was up in a french bun. It was a rather formal concert. Yesterday I ran out to Subway to pick up lunch. I was not going to get all dressed up and put on makeup just to go 1/2 mile to pick up some sandwiches. I was wearing a longsleeve, v-neck tshirt, women's jeans, ballet type shoes with a 1" wedge heel, as well as my breast forms. Last night I was at work, presenting in total guy mode (although I was still wearing women's jeans). In all of these situations no one seemed to care how I was presenting.

I identify as dual-gendered, somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, both feminine and masculine. The way that I was dressed when I went to Subway best represents how I identify, and how I feel most of the time. When I dress like this, I am not trying to make a statement. I'm simply trying to be comfortable, to be in balance, to have how I appear as on the outside congruent with how I feel on the inside.

Very few of us, when it comes right down to it, pass. When we are out dressed, expressing our femininity, and someone makes a snide remark we are insulted. That person, we say, is ignorant or has a problem. We call narrow minded, even bigoted. I fail to see how that person is any different than someone here insulting me by making snide comments about how I express myself. We all live in the same glass house. Please don't throw stones.

[justmetoo]

Thank you, Jamie001! :D
We each make our own choices. We already face enough restrictions from the muggles. No need to try to place restrictions on others and try to dictate what's right for anyone else. Some of us want to express ourselves by looking as feminine and/or as female as we can. Others want to incorporate some so-called women's stuff into their regular male wardrobe. Some want to do both at different times. It's about freedom of expression. It's all good. :D

Good for you, too, Bobbi!

I think this kind of thing is more likely to win acceptance.

Yes, it's not unlikely that most of us "pass" less than we think we do. I've said it before, most people either don't notice because they've got their own concerns and distractions or they don't care much one way or the other. A few people notice and support us and a few notice and don't support us. In any case, I don't worry too much about getting bogged down over "passing" or not. All I really care about is not sticking out and being harassed (or worse).

[ReineD]

Wow, interesting responses! I thought there would be much more acceptance from a group that is so little accepted in the larger culture.

Honestly, I don't think that anyone here doesn't accept the various forms of presentation. We're all friends and no one here is telling anyone how they should or should not dress. But we're talking about what the people outside this community will and will not accept, what is considered the norm, how far can it be stretched, and will this affect the way that others treat a male who does not present in a conventional manner. These are things that do matter to a lot of people here, in my opinion.

Some people can go blindly through life and present outside the gender norms, and not care what others think. All the power to them, and I agree that few strangers will say anything out loud. But, if he goes on a job interview wearing obvious women's things, I don't think he'll get the job. And it is likely that the cute waitress he's had an eye on for some months won't go out with him. And probably his neighbors won't invite him to their backyard BBQ. I guess it all depends on an individual's social needs, i.e. does he want to form close bonds with people and hang out, or run for councilman, or join the local charity's board, or get dates, etc. If a person is a loner, then all is well and he can wear what he wants to. And I guess if he has known the same group of people all his life and he doesn't plan on expanding his social sphere, should he suddenly begin to wear painted nails, scarves, and bras, I don't think his circle of acquaintances will drop him completely either, although he may notice that the social invitations will diminish somewhat.

I'm saying this in a very general sense, since there are just too many variables about how people look, what they wear (is is a very frllly woman's top, or is it a polo top that looks androgynous), how open is the milieu in which they live, their ages, etc, to come up with one rule that fits all ... but generally, men who walk around wearing nail polish, feminine tops, hose, and heels, etc, are looked upon as being odd and will have more doors closed to them then men who do not wear these things in guy mode, even if SAs and neighbors don't say anything out loud.

I think it is important for everyone here to be aware of this.

[JenniferMBlack]

I go out wearing skirts looking like a man all the time. I don't pass can't pass and get more reaction when I try to pass. If I am a guy wearing a skirt I get little to no reaction. I also have a kilt I wear often and have only gotten positive reaction while wearing it. It is in my opion if you are trying to fool poeple they are more likely to feel offended if they figure it out then if you simply do some thing they don't expect.

[Jamie001]

And I guess if he has known the same group of people all his life and he doesn't plan on expanding his social sphere, should he suddenly begin to wear painted nails, scarves, and bras, I don't think his circle of acquaintances will drop him completely either, although he may notice that the social invitations will diminish somewhat.

I'm saying this in a very general sense, since there are just too many variables about how people look, what they wear (is is a very frllly woman's top, or is it a polo top that looks androgynous), how open is the milieu in which they live, their ages, etc, to come up with one rule that fits all ... but generally, men who walk around wearing nail polish, feminine tops, hose, and heels, etc, are looked upon as being odd and will have more doors closed to them then men who do not wear these things in guy mode, even if SAs and neighbors don't say anything out loud.

I think it is important for everyone here to be aware of this.

Reine,

You really paint a very negative picture and it's not reality for everyone! Your response will cause folks that are teetering on the edge of embracing self expression to strongly consider reentering the safety of the closet. If our gay brothers and sisters took this approach, they wouldn't have achieved success that they achieved over the past 10 years. It is important for folks to get out there and show everyone that even though we dress differently, we are just like everyone else. Consider folks that you see everyday with multiple piercings, multiple tattoos, or ear lobes stretched to their shoulders by gigantic earrings. These folks are out there interacting with the general public and not cowering in the closet. We are not nearly as extreme as these folks.

Can you please try to be a little more positive and encouraging regarding intermixed gender expression?

[ReineD]

I can only paint the picture that I see in my daily life, given where I live and the people that I know and also all the other places I've lived in. Like it or not, our society does not accept men who feminize themselves all that well. This is the biggest gripe of most of the members who post in this forum, so I don't think I am saying anything new.

Still, the picture of a feminized man that I have in mind, and how you might actually present may be two completely different things and so it is difficult to be very precise with something like this. So I did say that situations will differ depending on many factors which are too numerous to quantify in just one post, if you will read the last paragraph of my last post.

[donnatracey]

Hi Jamie,

MonctonGirl rasies a legitimate point of view, if not one that you can agree with. Maybe the reply is harsh, but how much it plays out in real life is yet to be discovered. I personally would not go the way you are going, but then conversely, you would not follow my path,....quite understandably.

However, to argue for personal freedom of expression and then to ask the mods to delete a reply is a little contradictory. That's why we have the ignore button. That way, you don't have to see a particular posters comments or posts, unless someone else quotes them that is!

Rebecca (Today's Devil's Advocate)

Well said, Rebecca...the devil has another advocate today.......:thumbsup:


Reine....as usual you are "spot on", (and diplomatic as always) as the Brits would say but I fear you are fighting a losing battle with Jamie.....:doh:

[docrobbysherry]

I can only paint the picture that I see in my daily life, given where I live and the people that I know and also all the other places I've lived in. Like it or not, our society does not accept men who feminize themselves all that well. This is the biggest gripe of most of the members who post in this forum, so I don't think I am saying anything new.

Still, the picture of a feminized man that I have in mind, and how you might actually present may be two completely different things and so it is difficult to be very precise with something like this. So I did say that situations will differ depending on many factors which are too numerous to quantify in just one post, if you will read the last paragraph of my last post.
Looks like we're back to that "Passing vs Confidence" issue again?
If u can pass consistently, u have CONFIDENCE knowing folks see as the woman u wish to present.

If u don't pass but enjoy going out dressed anyway, u may have the confidence not to give a dam. But, you're NOT being taken as a woman by most folks!

These r NOT the same or the same kinds of confidence! It's just NOT the same feeling! As I recently found out this Halloween, when I was mistaken for a woman for the very first time!

I think anyone should be able to go out dressed however they like permitted by the law. Many of us wish to be perceived as women. Obviously, many also either can't or don't wish that. And, to those I say, all the best!

[ReineD]

Looks like we're back to that "Passing vs Confidence" issue again?
If u can pass consistently, u have CONFIDENCE knowing folks see as the woman u wish to present.

This too, but aren't we talking about men who do not attempt to present as women, who do present as men but who wish to present in a manner that will potentially cause others to stare (painted fingernails, feminine high heels, short shorts, feminine tops, etc), not much different than an CDer who goes out with no forms and a beard?

Darn, this stuff is just so hard to talk about without having PICTURES. There could be hundreds of different looks that would fit the above description, some of them way out there, and others, not so flagrant and fairly under the radar. When describing subtleties in presentation, words definitely are not enough, since everyone can have a completely different look in mind. :p

I agree though, that everyone has the right to present in whatever manner is comfortable for them, while at the same time acknowledging the impact if any, and being OK with it when there is an impact. If we lived in a society where there wasn't so much anxiety over people who cross the gender boundaries, none of this would matter.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Doc.

Im the one who is different, when you add up what i am then you can understand a little about how i think am seen what makes me tick where im comeing from some of my history, that makes me who i am,

i understand about dressing i understand trans people yet dont incoroarte that in to my life, i think very differently because of how im wired, ... okay.

Womens clothes are what i wear though i make many for myself to wear of cause, i dont dress to impress very few would see my difference in facial fetures, being very male so clothes dont change any thing for me, as to makeup. id be wasteing my time with that it does nothing for me. so i dont wear it,

I know most here would wear make up most i would think need that to pass, or be seen how you are try to acheve your look. most of you are men. not a issue, in fact many would out rank me in the looks dept, hands down with out trying .

So as many of you come here as men the difference is for myself i dont. im just one of those who comes as a female, who's grown as a woman yet will never be seen as a woman , an issue that comes with being interesex yet i know of others who you'd say she's a woman because she looks like a woman . = female yet is very male in side,

We dont all come with what we needed yes well im one of them. im the oppisete to my friend yet i look more female than she does, she has her womb i dont, & theres a few other details . i may not look as female as many of my women friends even with my incompleatness im still a woman = female, to use your dont pass the post like others here,

Should i stop being who i am because of my lack dont look right, havent got what it takes to be seen as i should, or do i just carry on being who i am. its easy for the one with the gun who holds that gun can spare my life or kill me,

Am i to be killed because im not quite all there, or can i have life & be different, you chose i dont have that gun .

For now i have a lovely beautyfull life im accepted not for what im not im accepted because im loved im just who i am, not trying to be other than myself im an incompleat female yet i have grown to be a woman who's a member of our community,

So maybe some of us dont have the look or are all there, what is needed with out any put down is a pure honist acceptance that shows we allare worth the time to be just who we are, regardless of how we look or dont.

...noeleena...

[Rogina B]

Doing "it" is referred to in the Fetlife world as "Genderf--king". If that is your thing,go for it! It doesn't do anything positive for those who try to present well and blend in,but that doesn't matter. Many of us are more than glad to watch from "AFAR" how people react to your outfit. Perhaps it is a great test of how thick you think your skin is or the shock value of doing so,or a test of how gracious the public is for not pointing and jeering. I have no problem with bearded ladies in dresses or goateed guys in skirts,enjoy your kink all you want as I won't be anywhere near you!! lol Most people will never understand GFing unless you tell everyone you encounter the "special " reason you are doing it. It is the opposite of blending.

[Lawren]

Underdresser; I don't even try to look fem and dont go out very often but in the heat of this last summer I went out several times in a skirt with a man's top and carrying my purse. Other than a few odd stares and glances, I got no bad reactions at all. In fact, I got a good laugh at a yard sale when the chait I sat in flipped over backwards an I flashed my panties....lol.

Monctongirl; This is a load of BS. The only statement I want to make is that I like wearing skirts.
2. I have anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment and am deliberately seeking to bother people with my presence and seeking negative reactions and you can expect confrontation from me because i am insane and don't know it...best to avoid me like a plague

[JenniferMBlack]

Here is a picture of how I went out just today obviously a man but also obviously I am wearing a skirt and high heals. I live in a very redneck area and have not been accosted in any way.

[Jamie001]

If we lived in a society where there wasn't so much anxiety over people who cross the gender boundaries, none of this would matter.

It is up to us to create a society that doesn't have anxiety over people who cross gender boundaries by getting out there and wearing what we want to wear. That is how women gained the acceptance to wear masculine clothing and accessories. They just started doing it years ago. I believe that the best way to accomplish this is to wear feminine items in male mode. Start slowly by wearing items such as women's shoes, nail polish, capri pants, etc in male mode. This form of presentation is analogous to women wearing rugged hiking/combat boots, flannel shirts, and other male items that women wear everyday. The only way to achieve acceptance is by pushing the envelope.

[Jamie001]

Here is a picture of how I went out just today obviously a man but also obviously I am wearing a skirt and high heals. I live in a very redneck area and have not been accosted in any way.

That is a really great look.

[JenniferMBlack]

thank you Jamie.

[Angela Campbell]

I generally try to blend when I go out en femme. Sometimes I do not want to be a girl when out but I seem to be a little girly anyway. Today I had some errands to run so I went out with no makeup, wig or forms. I had on a mans t shirt - no bra, and girls jeans and tennis shoes. My face is naturally a little fem with thin eyebrows and features I was born with, and I do tend to walk and have mannerisms somewhat like a girl. So I was at Walgreens and the SA of the beauty department asked to help me and checked me out. She was very nice to me but I am sure she was wondering as I was in ladies jeans, buying ladies glasses and makeup. She called me sweety and was very nice to me. I didn't try to present as a woman but didn't seem very manley either, leaving somewhat of a doubt. Most of the time when in drab I look like a guy, but I hate looking like a guy sometimes.

[Michaela51]

Here are a few typical photos of everyday wear.

[ReineD]

It is up to us to create a society that doesn't have anxiety over people who cross gender boundaries by getting out there and wearing what we want to wear. That is how women gained the acceptance to wear masculine clothing and accessories.

OK, I understand what you're getting at now, I see why you feel this is important.

But sadly, I think that you are chasing a dream, simply because of the question of numbers. Even though not all women started out incorporating pants in their daily fashion, there were a potential 100% women who would follow suite (which did end up being 100%), whereas there is less than 5% of the male population that wants to feminize their looks in the ways that you propose. So even if ALL the CDers in the world were to feminize themselves publicly, there would not be enough to change society's views on this, in my opinion. People would still be anxious over the few men who wish to cross the gender boundary.

Also, pants for women were not an attempt to cross any gender boundary, so doing so did not cause the same level of social anxiety. Women were motivated by a right to live to their full human potential, a desire to move out from under the dominion of men, equal privilege under the law, and equal pay on the job, which are human rights issues and not a gender statement. Wearing pants was not an attempt at looking masculine ... in fact, women's pants followed the shape of their curves in the hips and waist and the fashion industry modified the pants to look feminine, to differentiate them from men's pants.

Unfortunately, there is no way that the look that you propose (the feminization of men) is something that the 95% of non-CDers will want nor will they ever adopt this, since they are happy being masculine men. If all the CDers in the world were to come out in droves and declare their right to express femininity, their 5% numbers would still not be great enough to make it seem mainstream and to change society's views that it is not OK for men to cross the gender boundaries and feminize themselves.

Earlier I showed pics of styles that might work if you want to see a universal adoption of men wearing skirts, that does what women did (differentiate the styles to suit the gender), but you objected to this. So I'm afraid that what you are after (men wearing frilly and pretty things) will just never fly in the numbers required to make a difference since there simply are not enough men in our society who will go for it.

[jodie k]

Those insulted by some of Mocton girl's comments and would like her to be censored, or worse, are the most offensive in this post. i think they are way off-base as cross-dressers, who do not want to be insulted themselves when outing as a female. The forum should be a place (and so far is. I think) where everyone can have their say without worrying about offending anyone. After all, if you're not afraid to show yourself en femme to the world, you should not be offended by a forum sister's comments.
As you can see, I am very insulted by any "removal" or "Im insulted" comments, but they should not be erased, so members can realize it takes all types toi make a crossdresser.

Could have said all that in fewer words, but my wrath runneth over

[Jamie001]

OK, I understand what you're getting at now, I see why you feel this is important.

But sadly, I think that you are chasing a dream, simply because of the question of numbers. Even though not all women started out incorporating pants in their daily fashion, there were a potential 100% women who would follow suite (which did end up being 100%), whereas there is less than 5% of the male population that wants to feminize their looks in the ways that you propose. So even if ALL the CDers in the world were to feminize themselves publicly, there would not be enough to change society's views on this, in my opinion. People would still be anxious over the few men who wish to cross the gender boundary.

Also, pants for women were not an attempt to cross any gender boundary, so doing so did not cause the same level of social anxiety. Women were motivated by a right to live to their full human potential, a desire to move out from under the dominion of men, equal privilege under the law, and equal pay on the job, which are human rights issues and not a gender statement. Wearing pants was not an attempt at looking masculine ... in fact, women's pants followed the shape of their curves in the hips and waist and the fashion industry modified the pants to look feminine, to differentiate them from men's pants.

Unfortunately, there is no way that the look that you propose (the feminization of men) is something that the 95% of non-CDers will want nor will they ever adopt this, since they are happy being masculine men. If all the CDers in the world were to come out in droves and declare their right to express femininity, their 5% numbers would still not be great enough to make it seem mainstream and to change society's views that it is not OK for men to cross the gender boundaries and feminize themselves.

Earlier I showed pics of styles that might work if you want to see a universal adoption of men wearing skirts, that does what women did (differentiate the styles to suit the gender), but you objected to this. So I'm afraid that what you are after (men wearing frilly and pretty things) will just never fly in the numbers required to make a difference since there simply are not enough men in our society who will go for it.

Reine,

I still believe that you are missing the point. I cited examples of other members of society that are on the fringe regarding self expression. Please consider folks that are in the extreme minority and are covered with tattoos, or have gigantic earrings that stretch their earlobes several inches, or multiple piercings. These folks are out and about in society even though I estimate their numbers are approximately 1 or 2 percent. They are accepted and tolerated by society. As feminine males, we are not nearly as "fringe" as these folks.

Also, you keep going back to the example of women wearing pants which is NOT a good analogy. Consider my examples of women wearing flannel shirts, masculine combat or hiking boots, men's watches, men's shirts, men's ties, and the list goes on and on. Your usual reply is "these items are available for women in the women's department of the store and therefore women wearing these items are not crossdressing". If you look in the women's shoe department, you can find Oxford Shoes that are exactly like the shoes that are sold in the men's shoe department. The same is true for many men's shoe styles that have been appropriated by designers of women's shoes. These shoes used to be considered very masculine and now they can be purchased in the women's shoe department. You are probably wondering where I'm going with this and if you think about it, it's really obvious:

The reason women have these masculine-style shoes and other masculine items that are sold in the women's department is because prior to these items being available, women purchased the items in the men's department. They wanted to add these masculine items to their wardrobes and just went ahead and purchased them in the men's department. I know at lest two women that have went this route and both of them are married and neither of them are lesbians. They just liked the look and comfort of some men's shoe styles and decided to wear them.

If more men were to start wearing women's shoes and other items in public, then eventually the identical items would be marketed to men in the same manner that traditional men's shoe styles wound-up in the women's shoe department. I have my doubts if this will ever happen because most men have been conditioned since early childhood that anything feminine is evil and to be avoided.

I also believe that folks that incorporate feminine items without attempting to pass and deceive folks that they are a woman are more readily accepted because there is no deception. Just like when a woman wears masculine shoes and a flannel shirt. She usually doesn't apply a fake beard to appear as a man. Everyone knows that she is a woman. On the other hand, when a crossdresser that is attempting to pass is clocked, folk may react negatively because they feel deceived. I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, but I believe that it's reality.

I hope that you can understand where I'm coming from. I have been on the internet for 20 years and have been advocating "Fashion Freedom For Men". Fashion freedom for men implies that men should not be relegated to drab, masculine, and utilitarian forms of expression. Women are permitted a lot more latitude in their expression by incorporating masculine items. If you don't believe this, I can google up a lot of information to support this position from articles in Cosmo and other women's magazines. Men need to be afforded the same latitude regarding the incorporation of masculine and feminine items in their presentation. In fact, I would like to see the concept of masculine and feminine abolished regarding the clothing, shoes, etc, but that is expecting too much.

[ReineD]

Reine,

I still believe that you are missing the point.

Well, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and allow the membership to read both our points of view and make up their minds as to what they believe might work and not work. :)

[Jamie001]

Well, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and allow the membership to read both our points of view and make up their minds as to what they believe might work and not work. :)

Yes, I think that we should agree to disagree. I am beginning to wonder if feminine males like myself really belong here on crossdressers.com. I realize that feminine males are a very small minority here because the majority of the members prefer to attempt to pass rather than to appear as a man wearing women's clothing/accessories. Also, even though I have tried for many years however, I will never be able to understand or relate to the almost bipolar nature of many crossdressers that have a 100 percent male mode and also a 100 percent female mode. It just doesn't make sense to me because I am both feminine and masculine at the same time and cannot suppress either. It's just who I am.

I wonder if it makes sense for another forum to be created here for "Feminine Males" so that we will not be constantly ridiculed by the majority for our lack of desire to pass.

[Michaela51]

For the record i do not believe mocton's post should be censored.

[Wildaboutheels]

Here's a thought to further muddy the water. How many here who are not trying to PASS AS A FEMALE bother with wearing forms, any type of bra or any type of padding?

I wonder .... How are the fashion police trained to deal with something like that? Where IS that darn RULEBOOK? My guess is that it is OK to go w/o a bra or forms IF one is wearing a shirt sold in the MEN'S department?

I can only guess there are several chapters devoted to the proper, appropriate use of various padding?

[Gillian Gigs]

Regardless of what anyone has said, I see there are several points within this thread. The first and to my mind formost is freedom of expression and freedom of speech/opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, opinions are neither right or wrong, they just someones opinion. Freedom of expression is a different matter, and unfortunately opinions of what is in good or bad taste then enters the picture. ReineD said something of great value, that without a good photo it is hard to get a good idea of what some folks are talking about. ReineD did give us some photos to look at and helped formulate what she thought was good vs tasteless. I appreciate what you did. Having said that, one of the best photos of what I am thinking about would be this.

http://www.forestcityfashionista.com...reet-west.html

Now thinking about this photo I would add a nice cami/undershirt, lacey only if hidden. Leggings whether opague, or run of the mill pantyhose is an individual choice. Soxes optional, that having more to do with the type of leggings used, and just a good pair of sneakers, or walking shoes.

Whether someone thinks that this is stylish, or tacky is a matter of opinion. I have seen more of my share of fashion statements in my life, and they go from one extreme to the other. People should have the freedom to look the they wish, I don't care for the Goth style, but I will respect their freedom to dress as they wish. For those who have the talent, ability to dress and pass, then all the power to you, go for it and enjoy yourself. Please don't see me as being a lesser CD'er if I don't attempt to pass, in my opinion you would be no better than someone who sees all CD'ers as being lesser because we don't dress like them, AKA drab male clothing.

Some one said that the link did not work. It is the same one that is also found in post #18 this same thread.

[Nikki_C]

I am beginning to wonder if feminine males like myself really belong here on crossdressers.com.

Actually, you belong! This is the best part of the forum! All it proves is that there are many of us from all walk of life, many opnions, and many views on a given subject.

[Fashionista]

How many of you do this? How many of you do the whole thing, in respect to clothing, but don't try to hide the fact you're male? i.e. stubble, beard, etc.

I do this almost every weekend.


@MonctonGirl: No, it's not a joke. Do I have an "anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment" - maybe. I've been out in drag, I passed as a girl, I've taken hormones, I've nearly had my family break apart because of this.

For illustrative purposes, let me exaggerate: I nearly became a girl just to be able to dress how I like.

If society wouldn't "forbid" crossdressing, men could choose to put on the heels in the morning if they would feel that they would like to wear them today. They would choose a skirt in summer or the knee-high boots in winter. There would be no discussion on this "unusual" clothing, but it would also no longer be as "interesting" for many crossdressers. It would just be a regular piece of clothing. Many wouldn't be filling endless discussion threads in online forums, they would just be out wearing what they like.

If deliberately not passing is something that people on this forum cannot understand or even consider anti-social, then I just hope you guys in drag meet someone with the same double-standards you have when you are out at night. So... let me get this straight: it is social to attach fake breasts, put on fake hair, put on makeup and wear a skirt in public, but it is anti-social to wear just the skirt? Oh my, brave new world we are living in.


Crossdressing per definition (Merriam-Webster's dictionary) is "the wearing of clothes designed for the opposite sex". The dictionary doesn't say anything about trying to pass.
If crossdressers - those who pass, those who don't, and those who don't want to - are not able to be nice to each other, how should society ever accept someone who crossdresses?

Going out in drag is also sort of a protection for some. You are not John anymore. With all that makeup, the wig, the fake breasts, maybe even the padded bum you become Jane. Jane passes so well that nobody will discover that John wears women's clothing.
I know that this an oversimplification, but it's somewhat easier to hide behind a very well prepared costume than to stand by what you really like: Women's clothes.

Before I am posting a whole book here, let me rather say a couple of words to underdresser, who started this thread.


@Underdresser: You can go out dressed in full male clothes, but still crossdress. How is that possible? Buy a kilt from Givenchy (for men), high heels from Rick Owens (for men) or a dress from Sosnosvka (for men!) - these are all items designed for men, NOT for women. But they all are seen by today's society as women's items.

I've all these items here, and they cost between 4 to 10 times more than comparable women's items, just because they are designer pieces. And guess what? The reactions on the street are the same.


Some swear at me (that hasn't happened for quite a while now)
Some express that they don't like my clothing ("how far have we come?!" said one women to me)
Some stare, don't say anything.
Some shrug their shoulders and say "whatever floats your boat" (I get this quite often)
Some say "cool, I would like to have the guts to wear this"
Some ask me where they can buy something like that


I've been buying designer clothes and mixed them with traditional women's clothing and men's clothing.

Example 1: Knee-high boots from Marc Jacobs (http://www.stylebop.com/de/product_details.php?id=360671) with no heel, woolen tights, a Burberry kilt (http://www.stylebop.com/uk/product_details.php?id=346351), a black turtle-neck sweater and a woolen jacket -- half men, half women's items.

Example 2: Jil Sander high heeled wedge boots (http://www.shoesnob.com/2011/10/jil-sander-leather-wedge-ankle-boots-making-the-cut.html), skinny jeans, sweater, jacket. Apart from the boots, all men's items.

Example 3: Rick Owens high heeled boots (similar to those (http://selvagejean.com/2011/10/22/rick-owens-mens-heels-sz-40-41/)), regular jeans, black shirt, black Gareth Pugh coat (http://www.waitfashion.com/brands-designers/gareth-pugh-black-coat.html?lang=en) - looks a little like I am from the Matrix movie. Makes fun :-)

Example 4: Dark brown Michael Kors heels (http://www.shoplove.com/web/produkte/michael-michael-kors-lesley-ankle-boot-brown), sand-colored suede pants, teal-colored heavy knit sweater (http://www.fashionsisters.de/pimages/142/142161_300.jpg), coffee-brown colored Peuterey down-coat (http://www.fargettabbigliamento.com/images/products/large/506077446e81d_Immagine-7969.jpg). All women's clothing.


If you are matching things nicely, it may look feminine, but everyone will see that the outfit you are wearing was combined by someone with taste. So... go ahead and give it a try. You are not hurting anyone, and you are definitely not anti-social.

[LadyPilot]

"I will always PASS regardless of how I look as I live for my happiness"

[justmetoo]

I am beginning to wonder if feminine males like myself really belong here on crossdressers.com. I realize that feminine males are a very small minority here because the majority of the members prefer to attempt to pass rather than to appear as a man wearing women's clothing/accessories. Also, even though I have tried for many years however, I will never be able to understand or relate to the almost bipolar nature of many crossdressers that have a 100 percent male mode and also a 100 percent female mode. It just doesn't make sense to me because I am both feminine and masculine at the same time and cannot suppress either. It's just who I am.


I'm glad there are people like you here. People who think outside the binary boxes. It's good to get some perspectives that don't fit the "norm" here. Maybe it will make a few more people think, too. I like to hear various viewpoints on all the stuff we talk about, from 'traditional" crossdressers, from SO's and GG's, from crossdressers and others who don't follow the "rules", from transgendered folks, etc. As long as people remain civil and respect each other and don't try to dictate what others should do or how they should feel it's all good.

[Barbara Ella]

I have read all the posts here, and am happy that everyone with such diverse views are here. We wear women's clothes. How and why is entirely a personal choice. Everyone here can have their opinion on my personal choice, that is to be expected, and accepted. I cannot question the reasons or desires of what someone does that satisfies their internal needs. While I think some decisions can cause concern for the overall "advancement" of the cause, but that is of little importance. Advancing a cause by making even on person feel inferior makes the cause less interesting to me. I do not feel that manly dressing is a negative. It is simply not my choice. I hope all who do this can find enjoyment and inclusion.

Barbara

[ReineD]

I agree Barbara. I also champion everyone expressing who they are. But at the same time, if they live in pockets of the world that are more on the conservative side, they must not mistake "silence" for "acceptance". I'm speaking of people who present a blended gender in their day to day lives, and not the people who choose to dress fully in the next town over. Strangers are much more forgiving than employers, family, and other community members who are closer to home, since strangers are not affected by the stigma attached to having someone who is genderqueer in their lives (or transgender, or middlepather, or crossdresser, or whatever other term people want to use).

There are niches in our society though that do embrace non-binary, non-conventional gender: academia, LGBT counseling, hairdressing (I'm guessing), and other niches I'm sure (maybe working from home), and so there are places where people who are gender non-conforming can live well. But, I cannot see a gender non-conformist being hired as a primary school teacher for example, or a position that deals with the public such as a pharmacist in small town America, or work in a large corporate office, nor can I see them running for local government, being on Church boards, and being presidents of the local PTA. It just is what it is and everyone must make their choices.

[Rogina B]

Unless a" GFer" explains to everyone they encounter[why they are presenting as such],people in mainstream America just take a WTF? attitude.Around forward thinking people,there may be a live and let live attitude.Around others,a "GFer "gets written off as "weird dude".That isn't going to change easily or at all.

[Asche]

I'm another man who wears skirts, etc., and does not try to pass as a woman. I've never had any desire to be a woman (well, not beyond simple curiosity), and I don't feel particularly womanly or female no matter how I dress.

I have some kilts -- a scottish-style kilt, which I never wear because it's so uncomfortable, a Utilikilt, and a couple of home-made Utilikilt-style kilts. However, most of the time (except for work), I wear skirts or jumpers (UK: pinafore), and occasionally a dress, often with tights. I wear them to church, around town, on the train, on my bicycle, shopping, and of course to dances. I don't have any of those skirts marketed as "men's skirts," because I think they look hideous.

In the real world, I have never encountered anything negative aside from an occasional negative comment, but I receive a lot more positive comments (from both men and women) than negative. My friends and acquaintances are supportive -- one even expressed shock the one time I showed up in pants.

Some in this thread insist that men like me are simply tolerated, not accepted. That may or may not be true (at least of strangers), but at this point in my life, I don't care. I spent most of my life trying to change myself to meet other people's expectations, and it got me nowhere. However hard I tried to pass for "normal" (whatever that is), I was still ostracised as the "weirdo." I finally decided to spend my remaining years being and living the way I want to. The people who accepted me before still accept me, and I just write off the rest as a waste of my time. Plus, now that I wear skirts around town, I get the thrill of having women stick their head out the car window and shout "nice skirt!"

People here might or might not call my skirts, etc., "feminine." I don't think of them as "women's clothes", especially since virtually all of them are ones I've designed and sewn to fit my body and my style. I don't think of them as "feminine," either, I think of them as pretty or fun to wear. But they're definitely not the testosterone-drenched things that are marketed as "men's skirts."

The one place I get un-accepting and intolerant reactions is here at CD.com. I've been told I belong in a zoo, that I'm a traitor to TG folk, or that it's an expression of hostility. The anti-men-in-skirts comments in this thread are relativelty mild by comparison. Unlike Jamie001, I don't bother to feel insulted by it. Life's too short. But I have to admit, it does not make me feel that CD.com is a supportive place, the way so many posters write. The CD.com community seems to have an idea of what is and is not acceptable CD'ing, and is less tolerant of deviations from it than the real-life world I live in.

Even people here at CD.com (like ReineD) who aren't hostile to the idea of a man -- presenting as a man -- wearing "women's clothes" (and aren't such men themselves) don't seem to be able to wrap their minds around the idea of such a man not doing it to be "feminine," but just because he likes it. (No one has trouble understanding that some women like wearing skirts and some don't, but they can't apply the same principle to men.)

I've always felt that the things that society designates as "masculine" or "feminine" are pretty arbitrary, sort of like grammatical gender in German. The attitude here at CD.com, that there's some inherent connection between being male and those traits that are called "masculine" (and between being female and "feminine") strikes me as weird. It's as if Germans would insist that boys should like spoons and not forks and girls should like forks and not spoons, because the word Loeffel is masculine and Gabel is feminine.

BTW, when I speak of "the CD.com community", I'm not thinking of non-orthodox dressers like Jamie001 or UNDERDRESSER (or myself) We are here, but I definitely feel like we are outsiders and that most of the posters here think and act like we don't exist.

[Jamie001]

Unless a" GFer" explains to everyone they encounter[why they are presenting as such],people in mainstream America just take a WTF? attitude.Around forward thinking people,there may be a live and let live attitude.Around others,a "GFer "gets written off as "weird dude".That isn't going to change easily or at all.

It isn't going to change if we don't get out there an cause the change. If we cower in our closets we will never make any progress. Women earned their fashion freedom years ago by getting out there and wearing what they want to wear. Many of them were ridiculed but they persisted. Our gay brothers and sisters fought the same battle and are still fighting that battle to obtain equal rights. Do we have the guts to fight that battle, or should we run back into the closet based upon an incorrect negative picture that is being painted by several folks here?

[Ceri Anne]

A man going out in women's clothing and not attempting to pass is making one of the following two statements:

1. I am doing this for a joke. ( And people will joke with you or give you a hard time in that spirit )

or

2. I have anti-social personality disorder or pent-up frustration and resentment and am deliberately seeking to bother people with my presence and seeking negative reactions and you can expect confrontation from me because I am insane and don't know it...best to avoid me like a plague


Going out in a kilt - lots of Scots & Brits do it - but they have an appropriate top garment ( eg Blazer ) and socks. You will not get reactions from the kilt with which you can gauge reaction to full-femme.

EDIT:

I've thought alot about what you wrote - maybe you feel it's "baby steps" for your coming out
but I think it is baby steps in the wrong direction and you may be too confused to see that doing it
"half-assed" and failing on purpose is worse than trying your best and worrying about passing.

You may be so afraid to fail that you are inclined to go that way to feel safe and not feel rejection
from trying your hardest to look feminine and not succeeding. Maybe you just need some help
from someone who can pick out a good outfit and do you makeup and consult on hair, etc.

I agree completely. Either dress or not. Going out thinking your testing the waters in a kilt, really isnt testing the waters, and trying to "not pass" really comes across as a joke.

[Wildaboutheels]

Perhaps, it would be beneficial for the rookies here to know WHERE to buy "The CDers Rulebook" AND the other one "How to Read the Minds of Joe Doe Public"? I've asked both here and at all the local branches of my library, and no one seems to know where to find these two masterpieces. One would think THIS Forum would be the place to ask...

Wouldn't they?

Maybe people have to hit 1000 posts to prove their sincerity first before they can be entrusted with such Top Secret information? That's gotta be it!

[Jamie001]

I agree completely. Either dress or not. Going out thinking your testing the waters in a kilt, really isnt testing the waters, and trying to "not pass" really comes across as a joke.

Trying to not pass is not a joke, it is our lifestyle! Just because it is your view doesn't make it reality. Gender is a spectrum and many of us are on different points on the gender spectrum. There are folks on this forum such as myself that are both feminine and masculine and we express both of those characteristics in our everyday presentation. Why can't folks here wrap their heads around this concept? As one member stated in this thread, Gender Queer folks that present as male and female simultaneously face more ridicule here on crossdressers.com than we do out in the real world! I can personally verify that fact. Why do we have such dissension and disrespect of differences within our own community?

[JenniferMBlack]

I agree completely. Either dress or not. Going out thinking your testing the waters in a kilt, really isnt testing the waters, and trying to "not pass" really comes across as a joke.




It is not a joke it is not anti social. I am willing to bet I get more social interaction as a man wearing a skirt or a kilt,then you do fully dressed trying to pass. I have been approached by many popele while wearing a skirt and even been asked out by a few girls. Now I am not saying everyone finds it interesting or accepts it but far more will approach me then would if I am trying to be full girl as I don't pass and am clearly a guy trying to look like a woman. I infact feel more like a joke trying to pass then just wearing a skirt.

Plus what is the point in getting all dressed up and going out if you are to afraid to let poeple know it is you? Do you have a whole diffrent set of friends as your female self?
I would much rather go hang out with my friends and or family while wearing a skirt then go hide out some where trying to pass in a city 100 miles away.

IN addition I have to fully agree with the others who said they have recieved more negativity here on this forum then out in the real world. I will not put you down and say you are a joke for wanting to pass but for me it is not who I am or what I want to acheive, so for you to put us down and call us jokes for not wanting to is not cool.

[Jaymees22]

Hi, I can't believe all the negative comments you got over this. Everyone should be able to dress the way they want and not be judged. Whatever makes you feel comfortable should be good. I prefer to dress from head to toe as a women,others just the under garments, who cares live and let live. I was actually thinking of changing my look for going out as something more androgonous, let them guess my gender or not. Hugs Jaymee

[Asche]

Among my vices is an addiction to advice columns. Recently, I read a letter from a woman whose (adult) son was living together with his girlfriend. She Does Not Approve of unmarried people living together, and wanted to know how to make her disapproval clear, e.g., by excluding the girlfriend from family events and such.

The columnist basically said, all that you will accomplish is to alienate both your son and his girlfriend. No doubt, they already know your views. What is more important to you: your Disapproval, or your son (and a woman who might become your daughter-in-law)?

I think there's a lesson here for you orthodox CDers who feel the need to keep your Disapproval of us non-passers front and center. You will have no effect on how we dress and present. What you may succeed in doing is alienating us from TG and orthodox CDing communities. And in spreading a generally negative impression of CDers in general.

So: what is more important to you?

[Gillian Gigs]

We live in a world of intolerance, disapproval, and prejudice, so this site really isn't to different from the everybody else is it? As someone has said to me and I have said the same, " if you want a friend, then show yourself friendly". Lets take this one step farther, if you want love and acceptance, then be loving and accepting.

Quote: The columnist basically said, all that you will accomplish is to alienate both your son and his girlfriend. No doubt, they already know your views. What is more important to you: your Disapproval, or your son (and a woman who might become your daughter-in-law)?

The really scary part of this is that I know of an almost same story. A friends wife was not accepting of her sons girlfriend and it was obvious to all. Well guess what, this woman never sees her son, his wife, or their children, but maybe once a year, so who is the loser? Obvious answer, everyone is! I do my best to not judge others because I don't know what they are thinking, or what is motivating them. In not judging, it is my hope that others will not judge me.

So the next time you get dressed up, think about what you are thinking about, and about what your motives are. Then remind yourself of how you want to be accepted, knowing that you are different, then accept others who are different from you, in the same way.

[UNDERDRESSER]

Whooo! Didn't expect such controversy!

For the record, I welcome all comments, but PLEASE! keep them polite.


I didn't aim this post at those who want to pass, or try to do their best to pass, you're after something else, that's clear, and more power to you. I don't think it's what I'm after. I started out from the fetish side of things, and the idea of wearing female attire, and the feel, still have an effect on me. Having said that, the ability to show of my legs, ( stockings and thigh highs do that for me ) the coolness and freshness of a skirt, the way the clothes move on my body, that is what appeals most. I like to display, the conventional method of male display is fun too, but the formal version, shirt and tie, nice overcaot etc, which I used 2 nights ago, while fun, is a little restrictive. I got compliments which was nice, but at least some of those were about the slightly "delicate" cashmere scarf that my GF loaned me. At that same party, 2 of the guys were wearing kilts, down one from last year ( he left the company, and his was a utility kilt, not the tartan of the other 2 )

My situation is somewhat different to that which many of you would find yourself in, I work retail, but it is a very liberal company, and it's almost a certainty that a kilt would be allowed, it certainly wouldn't get many objections, if any, from co-workers. I feel fairly certain, that I would get permision to wear a suitable skirt as well. Something like that picture I posted would go down well, I think. It will generate some comments from customers, and while out and about, a kilt will certainly be noticed and commented on, a skirt would get more, depending on presentation. That's where my uncertainty comes in, I'm getting more confident in myself as I age, but I'm still a somewhat reticent and introverted kind of personality, plus, I want to develop my own look, one that works, and that I can be happy with. What i was interested in at the start of this post was the various reactions you get from this kind of dressing, and thank you to those who replied with details. Every situation and location is different of course, but my own locale is probably more flexible in that regard than most.

Once again thanks for your comments, particularly guys who do present this way, and please keep further comments polite. We might not agree, and that's fine, but we should all try to learn from each other.

[Rogina B]

If you don't explain your "look" to the people you meet up with,then most won't "get it".Even if it is a simple statement such as "I love long skirts..Don't you love the colors of this one?" All that is fine,because you are explaining your presentation. Otherwise,you will be painted as "weird " with the broad brush others face.I don't think it is about cowering in your closet,it is about explaining your look to the "mainstream" world that will help with acceptance.
It isn't going to change if we don't get out there an cause the change. If we cower in our closets we will never make any progress. Women earned their fashion freedom years ago by getting out there and wearing what they want to wear. Many of them were ridiculed but they persisted. Our gay brothers and sisters fought the same battle and are still fighting that battle to obtain equal rights. Do we have the guts to fight that battle, or should we run back into the closet based upon an incorrect negative picture that is being painted by several folks here?

[Jamie001]

If you don't explain your "look" to the people you meet up with,then most won't "get it".Even if it is a simple statement such as "I love long skirts..Don't you love the colors of this one?" All that is fine,because you are explaining your presentation. Otherwise,you will be painted as "weird " with the broad brush others face.I don't think it is about cowering in your closet,it is about explaining your look to the "mainstream" world that will help with acceptance.

I understand your point, but I'm not sure if it is necessary to explain. Case and point: Today I went to the local Radio Shack to pick up some items and both of the male clerks working there had pink streaks in their sky-high spiked hair and earrings the size of Quarters that stretch the earlobe out of shape. They were employed by a major retailer and both of them were interacting with customers in a very professional manner and were knowledgeable about the products that they are selling. They were not explaining anything about their "alternative look" to the customers in the store. It just wasn't necessary.

[Ceri Anne]

I replied earlier today about not thinking this was a good idea, and it kind of prodded my mind all day. As a CD who does my best to express my feminity when dressed, I forgot one major thing. We as CD's are asking the public to accept us as we are, as normal, non sexual predator people who are intouch with our feminity. Would it be fair to us if we did not also accept those who dressed in female cloths because they liked them, but didn't feel the need to move away from their masculinity. It kind of reminded me of that old Star Trek episode where there are two aliens fighting each other on the Enterprise. They both appear the same to us, until its pointed out that one is white on the right side and black on the left, and the other is black on the right side and white on the left. Are we not the same?

I still stand by a kilt is not comparable in public to wearing a skirt. You may be teased about it, but everyone still percieves it as male clothing.

[Rogina B]

I would say that their look would be considered a trend for some young people,however your look would be thought of as a fetish..why? Because most mainstream males don't dress "that way"..People tend to label you,and move on. If they are interested in your interesting look,then they will talk it up..Happens that way for us in public at times.I have no problem with you "GFing",but I doubt it will catch on.

[Jamie001]

I would say that their look would be considered a trend for some young people,however your look would be thought of as a fetish..why? Because most mainstream males don't dress "that way"..People tend to label you,and move on. If they are interested in your interesting look,then they will talk it up..Happens that way for us in public at times.I have no problem with you "GFing",but I doubt it will catch on.

The reason that GFing will never catch on is because boys are taught when they are toddlers that anything feminine including and feminine expression is an extreme transgression and must be avoided at any cost. They are also taught that if they slip-up and inadvertently display femininity that they must compensate immediately by doing something that is considered to be extremely masculine. Also, if they don't abide by these unwritten rules, other children will verbally and physically ensure that they refrain from future transgressions.

These ridiculous rules of masculinity need to change as they serve no useful purpose. Only then will it be possible for males to embrace GFing.

[Lvjim]

I don't dress to pass.
Panties come in alot more styles and colors
I've always liked panties better than mens
underwear.

Womens pants etc samething.

Am i more fem than masculine....yes

The general pop will say i'm crossdressed because
they're "womens". will most in cd tv tg world consider it
cding or a start?

Its all perspective

[Ann Thomas]

I've not read this thread, just the first post with the question, and I happened to notice my good friend Docrobbysherry posted up a couple above the end so I read his -er- hers about passing - yes I have seen her both ways, and yes, she's right about her appearance, but when clean-shaven, you're not that bad! :-)

Anyway, I'm one who just simply can't afford the time or expense to become passable. I can't afford the laser treatments, electrolysis, or even wigs. I can't afford to go to the salon to get waxed, my nails done, or even my hair styled. I work full time, and I'm in school part time taking 6 credits (12 is considered full time, so that makes me half time). I live as cheaply as possible in the littlest apartment I could find. I live very close to where I work so if my car breaks down I can walk or bus to work in a reasonable amount of time. I buy my clothes at the Goodwill bulk surplus area that Docrobbysherry told me about - $2.49 PER POUND for clothes! For me, a big purchase is to buy a $10 bra at Burlington Coat Factory.

So, I'm not passable, but I dress en femme 90% of the time. So, yes I do look like a guy in a dress. Hey, I'm not as bad looking as Corporal Klinger was on MASH, cuz at least I shave or trim my hair!

I think that the level of "passable-ness" that we put on ourselves is no different than the women we know that are deeply affected by the images of unnaturally thin models! What kind of hypocrite am I when I tell my lovely daughter that she's beautiful just the way she is, and yet I fret over myself for hours in the mirror trying to look passable?

Ann

[Gillian Gigs]

Jamie001 says: "These ridiculous rules of masculinity need to change as they serve no useful purpose. Only then will it be possible for males to embrace GFing."

If you don't think that these rules serve any purpose maybe you need to be asking the "industrial military complex" if they do!

[meri]

I will chime in and say that I use skirts, kilts or sarongs along with my other masculine attire. The skirts are generally of my own design, tend to be solid Earth tone colors. Right now I am finishing a long dark brown suede skirt. I will wear this with a sweater or sport jacket.

My sarongs are much more colorful and generally have prints. Most are geometric patterned prints, some flowered. I wear these to parties with solid colored polo shirts or t-shirts.

The kilts range from plain old solid pea green with cargo pockets which I use for hiking to more formal plaid (tartan) kilts which I wear with sport jackets.

I took an interest in skirts, sarongs, kilts some five years ago and I continue to work them into my wardrobe. Skirts are considered feminine dress by many in this culture and I do get some odd looks and stink eye on occasion. However, I collect a lot more positive comments than I do stink eyes.

My intent is to keep it "decent" and believable. Bottom line, however, is I am not breaking any laws and its really up to me and me alone what I choose to wear!

I will also put a plug in for skirtcafe.org, I haven't had any problems with those folks and I find them a breath of fresh air.

[BRANDYJ]

I can't even begin to wrap my head around wanting to go out in public in a dress of skirt and not try to present as a woman. I don't pass, so I don't go out in public and never will. But to wear my skirts or dresses without trying to appear feminine, would no doubt cause humiliation, laughter and people thinking I have a screw loose. Sorry, I do care what people think of me, even strangers.

[Lawren]

Just my personal POV here. Please take no offense, none is intended.

First of all. I do not, nor have I ever dressed to impress. For the most part I really don't care what most people think of my fashion sense. I dress comfortably according to my own wishes.

As for becoming a laughing stock, I laugh at their jokes with them. It has a tendency to throw them off and defuses the situation. Just go along with their jokes. Laugh at yourself with them, you may find that you like it. If you can't take a joke, then maybe you should not go out dressed at all. You cannot and will not be on good terms with everyone on the planet. Don't even try. Be yourself and treat your detractors with an overdose of humorous indifference or just ignore them. You do not need to explain to everyone why you dress as you do. (Make a joke yourself.) They're going to draw their own conclusions anyway.

Lighten up and laugh. Life is sooooo more more enjoyable that way.

[JenniferMBlack]

I replied earlier today about not thinking this was a good idea, and it kind of prodded my mind all day. As a CD who does my best to express my feminity when dressed, I forgot one major thing. We as CD's are asking the public to accept us as we are, as normal, non sexual predator people who are intouch with our feminity. Would it be fair to us if we did not also accept those who dressed in female cloths because they liked them, but didn't feel the need to move away from their masculinity. It kind of reminded me of that old Star Trek episode where there are two aliens fighting each other on the Enterprise. They both appear the same to us, until its pointed out that one is white on the right side and black on the left, and the other is black on the right side and white on the left. Are we not the same?

I still stand by a kilt is not comparable in public to wearing a skirt. You may be teased about it, but everyone still percieves it as male clothing.


I will agree with you wearing a kilt is deffinatelt no the same as wearing a skirt. I have both and have woren both out and there is none of the odd stares and snikers I when I wear my kilt. I do think it might help Underdresser feel more comfortable going out at first in a kilt, If that is something he would like to do. If one has never been out in a skirted garment before it can be a little intimadating as we all know and a kilt while mens wear is still diffrent then the norm for most poeple.

[Jamie001]

I can't even begin to wrap my head around wanting to go out in public in a dress of skirt and not try to present as a woman. I don't pass, so I don't go out in public and never will. But to wear my skirts or dresses without trying to appear feminine, would no doubt cause humiliation, laughter and people thinking I have a screw loose. Sorry, I do care what people think of me, even strangers.

Hmmmm, this is exactly what women faced 50 years ago when the started wearing pants. All of those women must have had a screw loose. :brolleyes:

[JenniferMBlack]

My screw isn/t loose any more I tightened it. Now to put on my skirt and get out tight screws and all.

[DW]

YES. Well spoken Underdresser.
I too like to dress femme, but am not passable, and don't try.
I often wear femme tops and carry a purse in male mode.
I also dress in pantyhose, dress, forms, etc. while sporting a mustache.
Most people don't care how you dress, as long as you pay your bill, and aren't in there face about it.
None of us here have the same needs or expectations, we should ALL be accepting of others no matter their differences from our own.

[Duana]

Interesting thread with some very judgmental viewpoints.

I don't own any guy jeans anymore. I always wear women's jeans. And some of them are very feminine and tight. I often wear these with sandals and painted toenails but a guy t-shirt and nothing else. I also wear feminine shorts and capris in the same fashion.

Some of you don't get it. I'm not doing this to provoke a reaction. I'm not doing it for ANY external reason. I'm doing it for how it makes me feel.

Many of you live in a self-deception, thinking you pass when you don't come close. The truth is, 99.5% of CDs do not pass and never will, no matter how much makeup they plaster on, how big the hair, how much padding. You're easily read. Sorry but wake up, take a good look at your pictures and see the truth.

After I realized this, I stopped caring about passing. I admit to feeling more comfortable and confident when fully dressed and made up, but that's really because I'm hiding under a wig and mask of makeup. It's not because I'm passing. I've got a force field of feminine things surrounding me; protecting me.

Typing this in my home, I'm sitting here in tight jean capris and a pink tank top. No forms, no wig, no makeup. I dress like this every day since I work at home. And if I feel the need to go to the store, I just put on a guy t-shirt and go, leaving the capris and sandals on. I wear the guy shirt for my own comfort in public, but I still wear the capris because... screw 'em, I like to wear capris.

Ciao

[Jamie001]

Interesting thread with some very judgmental viewpoints.

I don't own any guy jeans anymore. I always wear women's jeans. And some of them are very feminine and tight. I often wear these with sandals and painted toenails but a guy t-shirt and nothing else. I also wear feminine shorts and capris in the same fashion.

Some of you don't get it. I'm not doing this to provoke a reaction. I'm not doing it for ANY external reason. I'm doing it for how it makes me feel.

Many of you live in a self-deception, thinking you pass when you don't come close. The truth is, 99.5% of CDs do not pass and never will, no matter how much makeup they plaster on, how big the hair, how much padding. You're easily read. Sorry but wake up, take a good look at your pictures and see the truth.

After I realized this, I stopped caring about passing. I admit to feeling more comfortable and confident when fully dressed and made up, but that's really because I'm hiding under a wig and mask of makeup. It's not because I'm passing. I've got a force field of feminine things surrounding me; protecting me.

Typing this in my home, I'm sitting here in tight jean capris and a pink tank top. No forms, no wig, no makeup. I dress like this every day since I work at home. And if I feel the need to go to the store, I just put on a guy t-shirt and go, leaving the capris and sandals on. I wear the guy shirt for my own comfort in public, but I still wear the capris because... screw 'em, I like to wear capris.

Ciao

Duana,

Thank you for your response. Hopefully the folks that make an effort to pass (even if most folks here will never be passable) and the male/female gender blenders such you and I will realize that we need to respect each others methods and presentation because it is who we are.

[Jessica S]

I have read all the post and I am disappointed in the lack of brotherhood. The more you divide the group up the less the support you have. So what I have intrepid and I could be wrong is there is a hierarchy to crossdressing. So I am to believe that if you dress fully make up and and go out you are at the top. Those that just wear clothes and go out are next. Then those that under dress and go out. Next those that fully dress and stay in the house. And lastly sorry folks are the ones who just put on certain articles of clothes and stay in the house. But you could keep dividing these groups to make yourself feel more superior if you are not as high on the list as you want. Just make the list longer behind you to make yourself feel better.
There is a guy in my city that walks around in women’s clothes, earrings and makeup, but he is bald headed. So where would he fit in. He dressed fully but had bad hair. My kid asked why he dressed that way and I said because he can. It is not how a person dresses it is how they act and treats others. I see even in a group of crossdressers that some don’t treat each other good unless you think they at your level or above.

[Jamie001]

I have read all the post and I am disappointed in the lack of brotherhood.

Should be "lack of sisterhood".

[Rogina B]

Attention all "GFers",I am one of you at times as well!! I have a "roller dyke" look that I use when I am Rollerblading in Ft Lauderdale by the beach. I hate"helmet hair" as much as Shrek does,so I skip wearing a wig.Enough makeup to be girly,lipstain and earrings..boobs in my sportsbra,of course,cause I like having em.. And when I went to Zumba class in Boston a few times last spring,Unitard,lipstain,no boobs,short skirt[to cover my butt like a girl],no wig to sweat up,and the drag queens doing the class as well said I was "GFing" them. I explained that it was just practical girliness to me,like my rollerdyking look.I can relate,but I save my practical girl look for exercising only.