Hormones as a 'test'?

[RachelDee]

I was just reading this (http://transsexual.org/Whattodo.html) website and going through some of the information and came accross the following...


HALFWAY MEASURES: THINGS YOU CAN DO TO TEST YOURSELF

One excellent way to learn is not theoretical, it is by hands on experience. In the circumstance of discovering gender identity, a supreme tactic is to experiment.

The best experiments would ideally be nonfatal, non-permanent and very revealing. Perhaps the single most effective tool for self knowledge of gender identity, is to experiment with hormones.

To much of the medical establishment this is a bold, or at worst, a precipitous thing to suggest. It is not without some risk, but the risk is fairly small, short term.

Go on hormones for up to six months.

Beyond six months, the effects of hormone therapy start to become permanent, with eight months being the edge of going too far. Within six months, almost all effects, at least of estrogens, are reversible over time. It should be noted that for Female-To-Male transsexuals, testosterone changes are not reversible at all.

Hormone therapy is very revealing. The test procedure very simple. If after several months, you love and prefer how you feel, think and are, then you are probably on the right track, indications are suggestive that this is right for you. If you really don't like how you feel, think and are, if it makes you uncomfortable, disturbed and uneasy, then this is a direct indication that changing your sex is not the best choice.

Hormones affect almost every aspect of your functioning, and simply by noting if the experience is good or bad, you should get some idea of what you really want. Remember though, that what you want could be anything, even some comfortable place Other than Male or Female, so keep an open mind.

Simply quit when you choose. Take responsibility for this.


Is this something to consider? Are the effects of hormones really reversable in males upto 6 months after taking them? What effect will they have within this 6 months, nothing pysical i assume... more on thinking and emotional levels? Couldnt that make you less sure about what you want if you are on an emotional rollercoaster... hmm

I don't think the doctors will agree with this some how so id have to buy my own im guessing. This is where it gets confusing, It would be better if a doctor could tell me a sensible and ideal dose, rather than reading it on some site that all seem to have different idea's about it. Also websites that sell them.. which type? Id rather not just whack it into Google and hope i get a reputable site.

[Helana]

Robert

You will definitely have physical effects from a 6 month course, if you are still reasonably young then 6 months is sufficient to grow A-cup breasts. I know cause I went hormones for a while. Also your butt will round out. These effects are irreversable because once the fat cells are created they are there for life. Stopping HRT will mean some of the fat will be redistributed back to the normal male areas ie the belly but feminine breasts and butt will remain.

Secondly a 6 month course will damage your testicles, your sperm count will be permanently reduced. In severe cases you could be permanently infertile.

I don't regret that I took hormones as I am happy with the results. But don't think for a second that you can do this as some type of throw-away test. You will be permanently changed.

[Nyx]

Is this something to consider?

Well.... As a matter of fact. That is exactly what I'm doing right now. I ordered my hormones over the net and received them this monday morning. So today was my 3rd day taking hormones. I intend to take them for up to 6 months as well. I have always wanted to be a girl, but I didn't know if I would feel more comfortable that way or not. So I decided to try hormones to see if they make me feel better with myself.

I did a bit of online research and found that the typical regimen is 2 to 6 mg of estradiol (estrogens) and 100 to 300 mg of spironolactone (t-blockers). So I ordered 2mg estrogen tabs and 100mg spironolactone tabs to try my own regimen. Since I have no known health problems and I am taking a dosage that is at the lower end of the typical dosages, I consider the health risk to be very minimal. But of course I also did this promising myself that I would stop if I started feeling sick.


Are the effects of hormones really reversable in males upto 6 months after taking them?

Yes, they mostly all are reversible. The only thing that strikes my mind as not reversible is large breast growth and infertility... But infertility can take up to a year to come, and possibly more. I know of a guy that stopped hormones after a year to have a child with his girlfriend, and then started them again. It posed no problem.


What effect will they have within this 6 months, nothing pysical i assume... more on thinking and emotional levels? Couldnt that make you less sure about what you want if you are on an emotional rollercoaster... hmm

There will be physical effects. You will get much softer skin pretty quickly (the skin renews completely every ~2 weeks or so). You will also get slower body and beard hair growth. Due to the fact that body hair dies quickly, this can effectively reduce your body hair (but not beard hair, since beard hairs don't fall off by themselves). You will also get minimal breast growth. Nothing noticeable... As well as a feminine fat placement that will start preparing itself.. But this can take a long while to really set itself up completely. You can also get a reduction or elimination of acne if you have that like I do.

As for emotional/psychological changes. The reduction of testosterone by T-blockers should make you less aggressive, so more tranquil. It can and most likely will also reduce your sex drive to some degree. If you stick to a constant regimen of estrogen, you should not have mood swings, but if you stop or don't stay constant, you can get that, just like women having periods, where their hormone levels vary. In the long term, there are studies that say your brainwave patterns can be modified. This suggests that after prolonged feminine hormone exposure, you might begin to "think like a girl".


I don't think the doctors will agree with this some how so id have to buy my own im guessing. This is where it gets confusing, It would be better if a doctor could tell me a sensible and ideal dose, rather than reading it on some site that all seem to have different idea's about it. Also websites that sell them.. which type? Id rather not just whack it into Google and hope i get a reputable site.

Well. There are sites out there that provide good information. Like the TS roadmap site. You can know what is a good typical regimen and what initial dosages are usually administered. The part where a doctor would help is making sure you don't get sick from hormone side effects. As for buying hormones, there are also a few reputable sites with decent prices. Just *don't go on ebay*, unless you want to buy birth control pills relabeled as "HRT hormones".

By doing this yourself you are taking some risk. But the fact is, a doctor would make you take some risk too. If you are prescribed hormones, he will let you take them for a certain period of time and then ask you how you feel and perform tests. Since the risk of side effects is minimal when hormones are properly administered, the risk is not that high. But this is assuming that you are responsible and know what you are doing. The problem is mostly with t-girls that go with the magical line of thinking that taking 16mg of estradiol and 800mg of spironolactone a day will make them "more feminine much faster" and end up dying of a heart attack.

So my conclusion is: If you want to try them for a couple of months, you can. Just make sure that you are conscious of the risks and responsible. That you stick to it thorougly, that you begin with minimal dosages and don't ever do stupid things, like taking twice your daily dosage. You also have to be responsible enough to stop if you feel that the side effects are driving you sick.

If you want to discuss this more in detail, feel free to contact me by personal message, and perhaps we can chat on MSN/AIM/ICQ/Yahoo IM :)

[Christina Nicole]

I agree with what Helana and Nyx posted. There are quite a few therapists who recommend HRT as a way of sorting out one's feelings. I tried estrogen for a few months. It wasn't quite six months. Overall, I liked them and would have stayed with them, but I saw my life starting to get really complicated and ended taking them.

I found that 2mg/dy wasn't enough. 4 mg/dy started making changes. Your mileage may vary.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[RachelDee]

Thanks for the info there Nyx (and Helana, thanks for the warnings there).

I think i might suggest this to my therapist but im not sure if he will go for it so i might end up buying them myself -- I will tell him that if he does not give them to me i will buy them anyway so he might be more inclined to do it then rather than have me self medicating hehe. At the very least i can get some advise i guess on dosages, though the ones Nyx provided seemed fine, im going to assume if you take t-blockers then you will need to use less of the hormones?

Anyhow thanks! Hopefully this will be a good avenue for me to explore and hopefully something will come of it. :)

One question would be does anyone know of any websites (trust worthy) that ship to the UK? Thanks.

[MandyTS]

Robert I did forget to share this little bit on insite.

Hormones can make you feel gender dysphoric, whether testosterone or estrogen. When I started taking testosterone about 8 months ago now it was for sport. I had always rejected testosterone in the past for some unknown reason but know understanding much more it did more.

Taking testosterone madew me gender dysphoric, and just like taking estrogen can do so in a male brained individual, this did in my female brained body.

We will see the effect estrogen has in my long term.

Mandy

[seekertree]

Mandy,

I would agree with you there, when my testosterone levels are high naturaly I am more gender d, now on herbs to reduce the testosterone and it declines and just feel calmer, and quite abot of growth as well.

Julie

[Helana]

Robert

I doubt if your therapist will agree as he would be too afraid of lawsuits!

If you are serious about this then do not go on 6 months continuous hormones. That will seriously degrade your testicles and you will be without any sex drive for a long time afterwards. You can reach the same level of body feminization by breaking that into 2 or 3 month stretches with a 2 month breathing gap inbetween. That will give your body time to recover from the estrogen onslaught and limit damage to your testicles and sex drive.

On hormone levels ease into them gradually, start with 1mg estrogen and increase it by 1mg every week. About 5mg is about as high as you would ever need to go. Beyond that your body cannot absorb any more estrogen and the excess is washed out in your urine so you are literally pouring money down the toilet! Use anti-androgens to increase the effectiveness of the estrogen as they prevent any remaining testosterone from latching onto your body's receptors so the estrogen has free reign to adjust your body. Once your natural testosterone levels have decreased due to the estrogen then you can also reduce the anti-androgns after a while. Start with 200 mg and decrease this to 100 mg after about a month.

I was able to achieve small B-cup breasts after 7 months of staggered hormone treatment (I was in my early 30s). At which point they became too large to hide even under layers of clothing. So be prepared to stop your regime early if you are uncomfortable with breasts becoming too prominent. Remember the only way to remove them is by surgery.

Estrogen does not affect beard growth so you will not get any relief there but you may notice a slight slowdown in body growth hair if you are shaving those areas.

There is nothing toxic about hormones so they will never make you sick. The main issue is to watch out for blood clots. If you feel pains in your arms and legs then this may be a sign. Keep to a low fat diet, exercise regularly and take an aspirin a day to prevent their formation.

Send me a private message if you want more details.

Helana

[Nyx]

I would actually start with 100mg of spironolactone (if that's the anti-androgen you take). It seems to me that's the riskiest medication, because it's actually designed to reduce your blood pressure. It's actually used to treat high blood pressure patients. The risk is that you might actually end up with low blood pressure if you take too much.... With the associated symptoms (fatigue, headache, etc).

As for hormones not being toxic. It's true. They are not toxic. On the other hand, oral estrogens have to be processed by the liver, which does pose a health risk to some people (a minority). It can actually cause damage to the liver, which is something you have to watch out for, since that can definitely make you sick. As for a slight slowdown in body hair growth... From my short experiment with estrogen cream... The slowdown is actually quite important. I could shave my face and stay cleanly shaved for about twice as long.

On that note... Today is my 5th day taking hormones. I feel good so far. No bad moods. No abnormal fatigue or symptoms. I also noticed the first obvious change... Which might seem strange to people. I noticed this morning when waking up that my sweat smells different. It actually smells more like the body odours of a female (yes, there is such a thing as a feminine body odour). Off to take a shower I am... ;)

[Natasha Anne]

I would actually start with 100mg of spironolactone (if that's the anti-androgen you take). It seems to me that's the riskiest medication, because it's actually designed to reduce your blood pressure. It's actually used to treat high blood pressure patients. The risk is that you might actually end up with low blood pressure if you take too much.... With the associated symptoms (fatigue, headache, etc).

As for hormones not being toxic. It's true. They are not toxic. On the other hand, oral estrogens have to be processed by the liver, which does pose a health risk to some people (a minority). It can actually cause damage to the liver, which is something you have to watch out for, since that can definitely make you sick. As for a slight slowdown in body hair growth... From my short experiment with estrogen cream... The slowdown is actually quite important. I could shave my face and stay cleanly shaved for about twice as long.

On that note... Today is my 5th day taking hormones. I feel good so far. No bad moods. No abnormal fatigue or symptoms. I also noticed the first obvious change... Which might seem strange to people. I noticed this morning when waking up that my sweat smells different. It actually smells more like the body odours of a female (yes, there is such a thing as a feminine body odour). Off to take a shower I am... ;)

I can concur with your comment about the sweat smelling different. I go to gym often, and my body odour has definitely changed since I started. It's more tolerable now :)

As for spiro, it's a potassium sparing diuretic. So you need to be careful about how much you take. My endocrinologist put me on 50 mg and it was already enough that I had to ensure I kept putting more salt than usual into my system to keep things balanced. I ride 100km+ cycle races, and over an endurance event like that a potassium/salt imbalance is very noticeable. I was literally shaking after a ride.

Also, you need to consider that even women on the pill are putting oral estrogens through their body, if it's an estrogen based contraceptive.

The biggest risk to liver is anti-androgens, not the estrogen. Obviously there are estrogens, such as ethinyl estriadol, that can be risky to liver bt I know from my experiences with an experiences endocrinologist that they like TS people to have an orchi to reduce the risks of the damages of anti-androgens. I've not had an orchi, and will not, because the doctor I've chosen for SRS prefers that I don't.

My endocrinologist has told me to ensure I drink plenty of water every day, at least 1.5 litres.

Be careful, Internet research may seem conclusive to you, but I'd strongly recommend you talk to, and be monitored by a professional medical practioner. That way you're safer no matter what you're prescribed.

As a last point to ponder. I've found inhouse pharmacies prices to be nearly 5x more expensive than the costs of getting the drugs with a prescription. This is so much higher that it actually is cheaper for me to pay for a consultation, get the requisite tests done, get the drugs, and most importantly of all for me, have someone who knows my medical history and can help me through the process. Even the endocrinologist plays are role in helping you mentally through the process, and in my case she's so straight forward she has been invaluable.

[Julie]

Everyone is different. Not only are we different physically but we have different outside factors affecting our life decisions. So it's hard to say if what worked for someone else will work for you.

HRT could have effects in as little as a month. Once you develop breast tissue it's there until surgically removed. My doctor felt I should have begun developing breast tissue growth after only two months. I didn't because my body wasn't absorbing the oral medication. But he said most of his patients showed breast tissue growth between the first and second visit which is two months.

When I went on HRT I looked at it as testing the waters. I figured I'd do this w/o disclosing it to anyone and see how I felt. If I felt it was right for me then I would discuss it with my family. My therapist strongly recommended against that and I followed her advice. That told me you had better be sure you want to transition before beginning HRT. I'd say that's good advice.

[RachelDee]

When I went on HRT I looked at it as testing the waters. I figured I'd do this w/o disclosing it to anyone and see how I felt. If I felt it was right for me then I would discuss it with my family. My therapist strongly recommended against that and I followed her advice. That told me you had better be sure you want to transition before beginning HRT. I'd say that's good advice.

That's what i was thinking, I thought it would take a while for any breast tissue to develop properly. I also assumed they would work 'slowley' i kept reading how it said not to expect miricles overnight and such :) I just wanted to see if it felt right for me, if it did id continue and discuss it with those around me -- if not then it would give me a little more insight and i can stop.

I will talk to my therapist but i think im going to go see the GP as im not sure what he could do in regards to this.

[Julie]

I will talk to my therapist but i think im going to go see the GP as im not sure what he could do in regards to this.

Just an FYI: The Standards of Care, written guidelines regarding transsexualism and how to procede with handling patients wishing to transition, recommends three months therapy before the therapist should write a letter to the TG doctor. The doctor usually won't prescribe hormones without this letter.

Also, an experienced therapist should have some references for doctors who are familiar with prescribing hormones and know what they are doing. I've read several cases where the doctor had no idea what he was doing and the patient had serious complications, one ending in death. They have to do blood screening and a full physical exam first to see if there's any indications of danger to you if you go on HRT. Blood clotting is a biggie and, from what I've read, is #1 in causing the most damage. That was the cause of the death I read about. Liver function problems is another potential danger. So find an experienced doctor, not just your local GP.

[Maria D]

Just thought I'd add my tuppence.

I started taking hormones and finasteride at the beginning of this year. Then in April I had to stop until the middle of October. My fiancee changed her mind and wanted me to store sperm for possible later use.
Three months of hormones made me totally sterile, but after being off them for a few months, my count returned to normal.
While taking them, I first went oily and spotty, then my fat started moving, and I started to get the huge hips that run in the female side of my family. My face also changed a fair bit, and I looked spookily like my sister, despite never having looked like her before (I looked like Mum, she looked like Dad). My body hair softened more than I expected, and yes, my breasts started growing. After three months they were an AA, too small for a bra but nearly noticable. The nipples were very pointy though.
At no time did I feel any sense of 'calm', or 'inner peace', or any other wishful feeling of 'bliss'. I felt very pleased with what was happening, it confirmed to me that this was the right direction for me to take, and I was in tears when I had to stop, but I never felt 'at peace' like so many websites say. (I suspect they are confusing feelings of wish fulfilment with chemical action on the brain to apply happiness, but that's only my theory.)

During the time I was not taking them, my smell returned to normal, my face and hips started to change back, but did not fully return to 'as before', my legs stopped being so curvy and the muscles became more defined again, but my breasts didn't change at all. NOT. AT. ALL. I still had the actual breast tissue underneath I could feel and the nipples were still, for a man, vast.

After starting hormones again, all the changes started happening again, and I'm now more feminine than when I stopped in April. My breasts are now an A cup, and a girl at work (my boss) commented yesterday, and called a man over to look. Caught by suprise I was embarrassed, went red, started shaking and later told the boss I needed a word. Sadly she had to dash off so I didn't get chance to come out fully. The point is though, be prepared for people to notice.
I am now at the stage, after a total of about 4 months where it is not really hidable any more. I am happy with this, and when I see my family at Christmas, will come out. I have to, I can't keep the secret any more, and also can't really be hugged without poking them ;)
Everyone responds differently, think how GGs are so different, but for info, I am 28.
Lastly, when I started, my prolactin went through the roof before settling, and recently my blood pressure has gone up. Could be stress, could be the hormones, who can say. The important thing is that I am being checked. I feel a bit safer because of that.
Sure, hormones are very safe, smoking is much more dangerous and that's legal, but even safe things can be dangerous... Um, that sounds more stupid than it was meant to, but I hope you know what I mean.

Take care of yourself,

Maria
xxx

[RachelDee]

Well id consider myself relativly healthy, while i can't claim to be an exercise freek i only eat salad's and soup and other healthy stuff (yeah chocolate sometimes) like yoguts and that sort of thing. I don't (nor have i ever) smoked and i dont drink either.

Thanks for the info there Julie & Maria D, My therapist was there for my OCD. But after telling him about this issue i asked if i needed to see someone other than him and he said no.... I am going to see him this Monday, I am going to tell him what happened over the past month. That my family know about my situation and ive got my mind clear on what i want, and id like to start HRT - short term leading to full time (if all goes well) ive read of the risks (blood cloting) but i consider myself young and healthy enough to not have to think too much about that possiblity. I want him to write my GP and start me off on something... Once i start 'changing' even in small ways if it makes me happy i will know im going in the right direction. If the changes freak me out and i dont like whats happening then its time for me to think about things...

However i know that i do want this, my main concern is not what dangers and if they will make me 'sterile' (I'm not too fussed, having Children isnt something that its at the top of my list and you can aways adopt ect with a partner if you really wanted...) just how to deal with the changes that other people will notice. I don't want to look like a guy with breasts ;) but im in a good position, sort of, I am not working nor do i have many friends (ok none im anti-social :p) so there will be less people to have to explain too. If i start dressing more androgynous than hopefully that will help me to pass as one sex or the other and not draw unwanted attention when out and about...

I will see how it goes, if he isnt much help then im going to the GP and getting on a list for a proper gender therapist :) I don't really want fobbing off, im much more clear on what i want than i have been for a long time. :thumbsup: