The cross dressers fashion dilemma

[Jenniferathome]

Last night AllieSF and I were have a debate about a post I made. I am firmly in the "age appropriate" dressing category. Allie's position is that there are no rules and anything goes.

So, I thought this would be a good debate for the group. I hope that the women here jump on this thread as they are the best source of real information as they live it every day.

My thesis is this: dress as you like in the house, whatever makes you feel good. This is true for men and women. But when you go out, if you want to blend or not attract negative attention, there are "rules" that exist and dressing age appropriate is the only solution. Hemlines go down as we age for example. Cleavage is more covered, and so on. To me, even if she has a great body, a 50 year old GG in a leather miniskirt is just sad and most of us would notice and not in a positive way. In the same way, a 30 year man with pants belted below his ass and boxers showing is equally sad. Both scenarios are the portrayal of what they are obviously not.

So what do you all think? When part of the public, does anything really go? Is age appropriate just "old" ? Now please do NOT respond with how things "should be" just the reality of what is and with the caveat that the cross dresser is out in public. Should we cross dressers aim for age appropriateness or let it fly? And what is the consequence of each?

[famousunknown]

My thesis is this: dress as you like in the house, whatever makes you feel good. This is true for men and women. But when you go out, if you want to blend or not attract negative attention, there are "rules" that exist and dressing age appropriate is the only solution.

You're correct. I Agree 100%

[Jana]

I agree with you, 100%!

[Julie Gaum]

I also agree but there reaches an age when one can blend (in my case for one) with clothes befitting a decade or so younger. For example
I'm 87 but my wardrobe of dresses, skirts and pants are suitable for a 70 year-old. In other words there is an age plateau at the older ages
when, provided you are physically able, that you can still be considered stylish.
Julie

[Rogina B]

You see my pic at a Rememberance Day service so I must agree as well..You have to read your audience but dressing to blend is a help in acceptance often. However,nothing "frumpy" for the nightclub or you won't get accepted there!

[Meghan]

100% agree. GG's follow the same rules. They know if they wear something revealing or way too tight, or deck out the makeup etc, they will attract attention. Sexy legs and heels attract attention. If you want to blend, tone it done. If you want to stand out and don't mind the attention...go for it!

Meghan

[Sheren Kelly]

Dressing makes a statement. If you dress inapropriately in public, you are making a statement that others may/may not understand.

I prefer to make the statement that even though I can be read as a guy in a dress, it is appropriate (and necessary) for me to express my innate sense of femininity. Dressing as a woman of my age would be expected to tells the public that for me it is a gender thing, not a fetish.

[rachaelsloane]

Let's see how much trouble I can get into in answering this one given I'm certifiably old. First, in addition to the clothes when one goes out, it's how your makeup looks. The more subtle your makeup is, one is not going to draw a lot of attention even if the skirt(dress) is short or showing too much cleavage, some is OK. I believe I have pushed the envelope a few times with an outfit (somewhat short but not mini) but wear lower heels, that's the trade off.
So to answer your question, I'm not always age appropriate (my opinion), but almost always get compliments on what I'm wearing.
Where I know I'm not age appropriate is the length of my hair, but it works and does make me look younger.

[RADER]

Dressing for any sex is just common sense. You dress appropriately for the season and
the circumstance of where you are. IE, would not wear torn jeans & a dirty top to a friends formal
Wedding, nor would you wear a formal or a Tux to mow the lawn.
Rader

[Sally24]

Can you see anyone telling Rene Russo or Sela Ward to dress their age? Personally I try to maintain an elegant and stylish look. That doesn't mean that I have to wear what my grandmother wore. I think that if you are in shape, even at 60, you can show your legs off or accent your cleavage and still be attractive without seeming desperate. The fashion police seem to think Jennifer Lopez is too old for.some of.the fashions she wears. I think she pulls it off so I say good for her!

[Lady Catherine]

I've met GG's that were in their 50's that could pass for 20's. I say wear what you can pull off. I do agree that nothing looks worse then trying to look younger and failing, but if you look younger then you are. Go for it.

[docrobbysherry]

I generally agree with u when I go out in vanilla land, Jenn. On the other hand, that's the reason WHY I don't go out there that often!

As a 60 y/o old, I love seeing a SHAPELY 50's something GG in a sexy mini skirt. I say, "If you've still got it, flaunt it!"

And, what's good for the goose, applies to this gander, too!

When my shape's gone, THEN, I'll wear granny gear!

[Wildaboutheels]

UNTIL someone can tell me where to get a copy of the CDers Rulebook...

Actually, I wouldn't read it anyway. There is no "right" or "wrong" way for anyone to dress IMO, whether they are in great shape for their age [or ANY age] or 100 pounds overweight. If someone is confident enough/comfortable enough with their body, they should wear whatever they like or find comfortable. No one is being forced to look at them.

Clothing choice is ONLY a wrapper and can often be misleading, so I put little stock in what people wear.

[barbie lanai]

" In the same way, a 30 year man with pants belted below his ass and boxers showing is equally sad. "

Not sure there is any age this works.

[ReineD]

So what do you all think? When part of the public, does anything really go? Is age appropriate just "old" ? Now please do NOT respond with how things "should be" just the reality of what is and with the caveat that the cross dresser is out in public. Should we cross dressers aim for age appropriateness or let it fly? And what is the consequence of each?

No. I think that people look tacky when they do not dress age or body appropriate. This goes for everyone, men, women, and the gender non-conforming.

A middle aged man looks ridiculous walking around dressed like his 16 year old son, just as the middle aged mom looks, when she tries to dress like her daughter, even if it is a hot clubwear dress. She may have the body for it, but not the face.

Speaking strictly of CDers though, when they dress way younger or with shorter dresses, or body hugging clothes for their ages (or body types), they are noticed and stared at even more, just as are the GGs who do the same thing ... and not for good reasons.

[AllyCDTV]

UNTIL someone can tell me where to get a copy of the CDers Rulebook...

I really get a kick out of the people that try to make up the rule book for others. The truth is that it isn't anybody's business to dictate what is the right or wrong way for anybody to dress outside of themselves. And that applies to my sister crossdressers as well as the redneck in the bar. As a child of the '60's I miss how people would express their individuality in the way they would dress. Dressing of any kind was much more fun and interesting back then.

As far what is age appropriate, I always think of Satchel Paige's quote "How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?"

[Amanda_P]

Even though I agree with you 100%. I work in a very public place and a lot of the women we get dress without regard to age. Myself I would not be caught dead in some of the outfits these women wear. I'm well into my 50s and I can say with all the old cleavage I see I wonder what they was thinking when they left the house. No I am still male and a nice looking woman with something nice on will still catch my eye. But an older woman wearing the same thing will catch my stomach.

[ReineD]

The truth is that it isn't anybody's business to dictate what is the right or wrong way for anybody to dress outside of themselves.

I don't think that anyone here is trying to tell others how they should dress. I'm not. But I can speak of the impression that others will get. Whether we like it or not, there are tacit social norms about appearance (the entire fashion industry is built on this). Most people do want to make a good impression.

I should think the last thing you'd want would be for people to think when they see you, "OMG, how tacky ... she shouldn't wear that at her age and/or with her body". But, if you don't care what others think or how you are seen, then have at it! :)

[MonctonGirl]

Stores sell age-based clothing for a reason, but if someone wants to go out
dressed as Little Bo Peep - I guess they are within their rights.

However, when they do so ( or display any other outlandish, attention-seeking behavior )
they make it harder for those more conservative to not encounter prejudice, since the majority
of the population will figure "we" are nutbars, too.

So I guess we are in the same dilemma as the conservative homosexual who lives a nice, quiet life
watching the attention-seeking gay parade participants thinking to himself :
"OMG what are these r****ds DOING ?"

[Vickie_CDTV]

Personally, if I saw a 50 year old GG walking around in a leather mini, I'd... well, ask if she was single. Most others around her may not approve, but I'd think it is great she feels great about herself despite what others might say about a woman her age, good for her!

[noeleena]

Hi,

I dress nicely with some lovely clothes i have, they suit me & my day wear is in keeping with who i am as a woman.
What i do like wearing is my garb, or Renaissance clothes, no matter what they look like they are still age appropreate,

That of cause is in the public domain, seen by many people, that includes transport & on plane's ,people look of cause, because it's different, for myself it suits my apprance better, even better than my day clothes,

So i dont need to pass or blend in. & its more accepibale & i get lovely comments,

My Edwardian clothes are plain yet again in keeping with my self & how i look, had i looked more as a female / woman then i would wear more feminine clothes, i dont so i do what i belive is best for this woman, I work with what i have, i dont pretend .

Jos will soon tell me whats not right for me to wear, Hey i know its harder for me than most women. where i lack i make up else where,

...noeleena...

[Diversity]

I vote for dressing in 'age appropriate' attire when going out, especially as a CD'r if you don't want to attract negative attention. By dressing appropriately, you'll ultimately have more fun! Save the 'fly in the face dressing' for home wear.
Di

[ChelseaErtel]

I agree with you 100%. I'm 52 and I only have skirts that are just one or two inches above the knee at the most. My legs are my best feature so I like them to get attention but not too much. I wear a lot of slacks and maxi skirts and definitely try to blend in. I've talked with GG's about hemlines and yes, while they tend to go down they don't go all the way down otherwise ladies in their seventies would be tripping on their skirts. If you have pretty defined legs, I think you can show your legs off but that doesn't mean mini skirts for a 50 year old. My HR manager and I just had this conversation. She's my age and had on a very pretty skirt suit. She skirt came a little above the knee. I said that's was as high as I'd go and she agreed. I told her she had lovely legs and she said mine were too and that we should show them to a point.

So yes, age appropriate is what I think is proper. Of course that depends on what age you look like. I think Jennifer - at - home looks to be in her early forties so I think she can have a little fun. My wife looks to be maybe 40 (she's 52), very thin and can get away with shorter skirts than I would wear. She still avoids the very short ones however since we are in our fifties.

Fun thread. I haven't read it yet as I didn't want to prejudice myself.

[Miranda-E]

So what do you all think? When part of the public, does anything really go? Is age appropriate just "old" ? Now please do NOT respond with how things "should be" just the reality of what is and with the caveat that the cross dresser is out in public. Should we cross dressers aim for age appropriateness or let it fly? And what is the consequence of each?

I wear heels almost all the time and everywhere. 3-4" but not stripper platforms
I wear skirts unless I absolutely have to wear jeans for the job i'm doing but knee length or long hippie skirts.
I have some lowish cut tops and they have their place but aren't always appropriate.

Consquences and reality?
I can be taken seriously, even with my style quirks or I can look like a woman that gives change for a $10 bill or mutton dressed as lamb.
I prefer to taken seriously.

[RedBaron]

I disagree very much. I don't dress to please others, I dress to please myself. I am 67 years old, have a beard, and go out in public in skirts every day. I love miniskirts and wear them all the time. I get lots of compliments, since my legs are still in good shape, but most important for me is that I like it. I don't really care what other people think, I live my life, not theirs.

[Beverley Sims]

I do dress age appropriate, in so much as I rarely show my midriff.
I have low cut tops just enough to show I have cleavage and boobs.
I dress seriously so as not to be read if possible.
I wear skirts and dresses appropriate to the occasion and usually flats to the mall.
Often no stockings as there is no hair to hide on a reasonably shapely leg.
Always clean shaven and a little makeup. No I do not need much. :)

[mikiSJ]

If the guy or GG you just walked by says "yuck", instead of "that's a guy", then you blew the fashion contest.

[Cheryl T]

I agree that age appropriate is necessary if we wish to be a part of society and not the "fringe" element. That being said it doesn't mean that you must dress your "Chronological" age. By that I mean that as my wife tells me, when I dress I look about 45 and not my true age. Therefore I dress for that age, not 18, not 63, not 30. If you "appear" younger than you really are (and what woman doesn't strive to do that) then you should dress for that age if you hope to be seen as a person and not as an oddity.

Yes, hemlines drop as we age, but if you still have the legs then go for it....within reason. I still like my skirts a bit shorter (1 or 2" above the knee) and I'm told I have the legs to wear skirts that short. I would not however wear one that I couldn't sit in for fear of displaying my reality...so to speak.

At home...anything goes when the shades are down and the doors are closed.

[Kate Simmons]

It is what it is and the consequences (both positive and negative) should be obvious. When all is said and done, however, we can't control how any one else dresses, only ourselves.:)

[Erica Marie]

I believe in age appropriate. Even for a gg. Depending on the venue you may be able to at times get away with trying to capture your youth but out and about in every day public in order to blend in I would dress accordingly. Actually that is my first project after the holidays. My time is here. Most of my pics have been of outfits that look cute but are not practical for everyday. I would like to find a place to shop were I can find a gg or sales associate to help me pick out an outfit or two that will put me in the public eye without drawing attention.

[kimdl93]

I agree with you Jennifer. While I don't care what others wear at home, I strongly believe that if we dress in an age and situation-appropriate manner, we are more likely to blend in; and, when we are read, are more likely to evoke positive reactions from others. Certainly, there are places where one can dress "over the top", but the mall, the grocery, the local Starbucks or the city streets are not such places.

[Claire Cook]

I agree with you Jennifer. While I don't care what others wear at home, I strongly believe that if we dress in an age and situation-appropriate manner, we are more likely to blend in; and, when we are read, are more likely to evoke positive reactions from others. Certainly, there are places where one can dress "over the top", but the mall, the grocery, the local Starbucks or the city streets are not such places.

Kim has nailed it for me. When I'm out and about, I'd like to look and be treated as other women of my age. Well, maybe 10 years less (but isn't that how many women feel?).

Well, maybe 15????

[linda allen]

Well, it only makes sense and I agree 100%, dress your age. And dress for the situation. For most of us that means never wearing those 6" stripper heels outside of the house.

[Leslie Langford]

Interestingly enough, this article was posted on today's Yahoo Canada web page, and is very timely with respect to this discussion:

59 is the Age Women Should Stop Wearing Red Lipstick, Heavy Makeup, Study Finds

"There is a time to start aging gracefully, and UK beauty product company Nurture Replenish Skincare surveyed 2,000 women age 45-plus and found out that most of you think that's at age 59. This is the age that women thought it was time to ditch high heels, red lipstick, tight clothes and false nails and try to look "more natural."

"The results of our studies are often quite surprising," Nurture Replenish Skincare spokeswoman told Yahoo! Shine. "We think middle aged is supposed to be later, but women are saying that in the early 40s a lot of things need to be toned down."

Women shouldn't wear baseball caps or apply a fake tan after age 40, respondents said. Miniskirts and leather pants are off the rack at 41, knee-high boots and even conservative tight tops should be retired by age 45. And tattoos start to look bad by the mid-50s.

Every woman has had her own moments of confronting age in fashion and beauty trends. We'd say that some looks expire much earlier than 40--such as braids (only in your earlier 20s), maxi skirts, pants that say "pink," or anything, for that matter, on the butt, certain light, short, flimsy dresses as the upper thighs...change...with age, and so on.

And we've all seen the stereotype of of the too-youthful older woman, in leather pants, animal prints, a mask of heavy makeup, giant jewelry and--this is the worst violation in our opinion--wrinkled cleavage. Still, we at Shine like to see appropriately dressed older women with bright lipstick, bright nails and beautiful fabrics and colors. Appropriate being the key word."

And in a related story, this from realbuz.com:

10 Surprising Things That Age You

"While ageing is an inevitable part of life, how quickly or well you age depends on many different factors. Although there are some obvious causes of premature ageing, there are many seemingly harmless things that can also add on the years.

1: Watching TV

While we all know that spending hours in front of the television is bad for your waistline, you may not know that it can also shorten your lifespan. Researchers from the University of Queensland found that for every hour you watch TV you may shorten your life by as much 22 minutes. Furthermore, research has suggested that watching TV could increase your risk of developing Alzheimer’s disease.

Watching TV can shorten your lifespan and increase your risk of developing Alzheimer's disease.

2: Drinking from bottles and through straws

You probably know that what you drink can affect your looks, but you may be surprised to hear that how you drink can also influence how well you age. In fact, sucking on straws and drinking out of sports bottles causes the same pursing action – and therefore the same fine lines and wrinkles around the mouth – as smoking. Try drinking directly from the glass whenever you can to help keep the wrinkles at bay.

3: Too little (or too much) exercise

The benefits of exercise are immeasurable for keeping you looking and feeling young. Not only does a lack of exercise shorten your life and increase risk of obesity and heart disease, but exercise can also keep your brain young by protecting against Alzheimer’s, boosting your mood and leaving you feeling alert and energized. Furthermore, increased blood flow to your skin can help keep your complexion clear, bright and youthful-looking. On the flip-side, while we should all make an effort to stay active, too much exercise can cause stiffness in joints and increase risk of arthritis.

4: Central heating

Many of us spend a fortune on anti-ageing skin products, yet we may regularly accelerate skin ageing without even being aware of it. The central heating and air conditioning systems that many of us use at home and at work can severely dry out skin, leading to premature ageing and wrinkles. To help keep skin youthful and soft, try turning down the heating and wearing more layers to stay warm. Keeping a glass of water in the room can also increase humidity, while wearing a protective face cream can help relieve dryness.

5: Sugar

Eating too much sugar is clearly bad news for your waistline; however sugar consumption is also up there with sun exposure and smoking when it comes to the major causes of wrinkles. When blood sugar levels are high, a process called glycation occurs which damages the collagen in your skin. Once damaged, the normally springy collagen hardens, leading to wrinkles and sagging.

6: Listening to an iPod

Hearing loss is a common symptom of ageing, yet many of us may suffer from diminished hearing early on due to listening to loud music through headphones. While listening to music sparingly and at a moderate volume is unlikely to do you much harm, a study has shown that listening to music on headphones for an hour can temporarily affect people’s hearing, while some researchers have suggested that listening at full volume could put you at risk of permanent damage.

Listening to loud music through headphones could damage your hearing.

7: Your job

While having a job is pretty essential for most of us, it can also be one of the biggest causes of premature ageing. Firstly, work is a big source of stress for many people, which research has found can increase risk of heart disease and speed up cell ageing. Secondly, spending too many hours in the workplace can mean you have little time for essentials such as exercise, proper meals and sleep. To help minimize damage, try to avoid working exceptionally long hours and make the most of your evenings and weekends as times to relax.

8: Soap

While you may think that soap is your skin’s best friend, this is actually not the case. The reason for this is that your skin has an acid mantle which is a natural protective barrier of the skin. When you wash with soap – which is generally alkaline – it can remove this protective layer of oils and dry out the skin, eventually leading to wrinkles. While it is not advisable to stop washing entirely, try swapping the soap for a PH-neutral and chemical-free cleanser, and bear in mind that there is such a thing as over-cleansing your skin.

9: Your pillowcase

You may think you’re indulging in a bit of beauty sleep when you hit the hay at night; however the opposite could in fact be true. If you regularly sleep with the same side of your face pressed against a cotton pillow case this may cause creases on the skin which can eventually turn to fine lines and wrinkles. To help stay youthful overnight try sleeping on your back instead, or switch to a silk or satin pillowcase to create less compression wrinkles and help maintain skin’s moisture levels.

10: Low fat diets

Many of us switch to low fat diets to help shed excess pounds. However, cutting out good, healthy fats such as omega-3 fatty acids could negatively affect the speed and way in which you age. Omega-3 fatty acids – present in oily fish, walnuts and flax seeds – are essential for keeping you looking and feeling young. Not only do they help keep skin supple and wrinkle-free, but they help boost brain health, keep your heart in good condition, and can even increase your lifespan."

And there you have it - feedback from the ultimate authority on this subject - GG's ;).

[NicoleScott]

I don't think that anyone here is trying to tell others how they should dress.

We'll have to disagree on this one, Reine. On previous threads many have voiced their opinion that if you can't dress appropriately, stay home.
----------------
There's a lot of hipocracy going on here. People who don't want to be told to dress appropriately (you're a guy - dress like one), want to tell other crossdressers to dress to blend if they go out, otherwise stay home. And those trying to draw closeted crossdressers out then want to dictate how they should present. All this is for their own benefit, not mine.
Women don't all dress age- and body-appropriate, or dress to blend. Are they told to stay home?

[I Am Paula]

Age and venue appropriate. If you're stepping out to a gay bar or to a drag show, a leather mini is okay. At the mall, the same skirt is gonna get you stares. If you're 55 years old, even I will laugh at you in low rise shorts and a Hello Kitty top. C'mon, don't you stare at GG's dressed completely inappropriately (and there's lots)-Celeste

[Leslie Langford]

Nicole, the operative word here is "blend in"

A 60-year-old woman who goes out in public dressed like Dolly Parton is almost as likely to attract negative attention as the aging crossdresser prancing around in fishnets, a miniskirt, and 6" stilettos.

The former diminishes other women by projecting a pathetic "bimbo" image that most other women wouldn't want to be associated with, whereas the latter just reinforces the negative stereotype that crossdressers are fetishistic deviants that many still hold, and justifies their sometimes violent opposition towards us.

Call me "old school", but I still believe that if we want to be taken seriously as crossdressers and get the general public to accept us unconditionally, we also need to act responsibly and not figuratively poke a finger in society's eyes. I realize that this flies in the face of the Hippie Generation's "Do your own thing" mantra, but we also live in the real world and swimming against the stream does have consequences, proving yet again that life is not fair.

By the same token, the people in the Gay Pride Parades who sport @ssless chaps or flaunt their nudity in the name of being "out, loud, and proud" don't do their community as a whole any great favours either in terms of having their otherwise legitimate aspirations for equal treatment being taken seriously.

Like it or not, we are all ultimately part of a larger collective and sometimes we have to abide by the "rules" - arbitrary as they might be at times - so as to better fit in and not be perpetual outcasts.

[heather1968]

I agree 100%. I want to also add that men's pants belted below the waist / hips with boxers/ BC showing is sad at any age!!!

[LaraPeterson]

I like what Lady Catherine said, "wear what you can pull off." And I think the quoted Canadian poll is just like every other poll, useless. Don't tell me how to dress and don't suggest how I should dress. Trying to flip morality and appropriateness into a discussion of CDer's clothing is just stupid. And I don't get this blending thing either. If I spend an hour on makeup and another half hour putting together an outfit to go out for the evening, you better believe I want to get noticed.

If you want to stay home or go out and blend in, that's your business. If I don't, that's my business. BTW, most of the time, I do blend in. I travel internationally all the time completely en femme and nobody says a word. But I've got this wild hair when I get to some of my destinations; it's a wild hair that just isn't going to get pulled out. I can pull off a short dress and 5" heels, shiny hose, and red lipstick. So I do. If you don't like it, turn your head, but keep your mouth shut. Oh yeah, my daddy, God rest his soul, always told me, "If you can't say something nice about somebody, keep your dirty mouth shut." We'd do well to remember that.

[Sarah Doepner]

It's beginning to sound like people have different basic goals and levels of comfort when they crossdress and those shape their opinion on this topic. There are going to be variations in the mix, I'm sure, but in broad brush strokes this may be what we see. Those who have the goal of blending in and want crossdressing to be accepted as normal in society are the ones who believe in age, body and situation appropriate clothing choices. Those who are more focused on their own experience and are comfortable regardless of outside approval/criticism say wear what makes you feel good. Both work for those individuals but I'm thinking it will be difficult to find a full consensus on this one.

[AllyCDTV]

I don't think that anyone here is trying to tell others how they should dress. I'm not. But I can speak of the impression that others will get. Whether we like it or not, there are tacit social norms about appearance (the entire fashion industry is built on this). Most people do want to make a good impression.

I should think the last thing you'd want would be for people to think when they see you, "OMG, how tacky ... she shouldn't wear that at her age and/or with her body". But, if you don't care what others think or how you are seen, then have at it! :)

We are guys in dresses. We will never look as good in public as GG's do. We will always be tacky, age appropriate or not so why worry about it? Let everyone express themselves without judgement. It is up to everyone to dress the way they feel like. If they don't care what impression they make, why should anyone else? And yes there is a subtle, or maybe not so subtle underlying theme here of people trying to impose their standards on others.

[ReineD]

We are guys in dresses. We will never look as good in public as GG's do. We will always be tacky, age appropriate or not so why worry about it?

Oh, I disagree. My SO who is middle-aged is anything but tacky when she goes out. She does not wear super tight clothes, skirts or dresses that look good on a size 4 college girl, or stilettos (aka f***k-me shoes). lol. I think it's entirely possible to dress in a way that blends, while at the same time indulging in a love of fashion, since there are so many fashion choices out there. :)

Just so you know, none of my female friends dress like this either and I would also not be caught dead in a getup like that. I did go through a phase of dressing like that (two or three times) early in our relationship when my SO and I were going to drag shows, but this was at a night club and not in the mainstream, also it was short lived. It just wasn't me.

[minalost]

I agree that age appropriate is necessary if we wish to be a part of society and not the "fringe" element. That being said it doesn't mean that you must dress your "Chronological" age. By that I mean that as my wife tells me, when I dress I look about 45 and not my true age. Therefore I dress for that age, not 18, not 63, not 30. If you "appear" younger than you really are (and what woman doesn't strive to do that) then you should dress for that age if you hope to be seen as a person and not as an oddity.

Yes, hemlines drop as we age, but if you still have the legs then go for it....within reason. I still like my skirts a bit shorter (1 or 2" above the knee) and I'm told I have the legs to wear skirts that short. I would not however wear one that I couldn't sit in for fear of displaying my reality...so to speak.

At home...anything goes when the shades are down and the doors are closed.

This - but I would add that the venue you are dressing for is also important. What works at a night club is not the same as what works at the mall...

[Leslie Langford]

I take exception to the word "tacky" used within this context, as this is far too broad of a generalization.

I, for one, have never dressed "tacky" when out in "Leslie" mode, and have received far too may compliments from GG's while out and about that will attest to that. And from some of the pictures that I have seen on this forum, there are plenty of other ladies here who also have a great fashion sense and dress far better than many GG's out there. We may not always get away with not being "read" as males beneath all that finery, but those of us who make the attempt often get rewarded with the type of acceptance and "A" for effort that we often thought was unattainable.

Perhaps what you actually meant to say was that the best most of us can hope for is to "blend in" even while still giving off hints that we are not actually GG's, and as opposed to "passing" unconditionally. That wouldn't be my definition of "tacky", Ally, so maybe you're just being too hard on yourself and others here...

[Jenniferathome]

I expected a lively debate and that's a good thing. To those who didn't understand the question, there is no prescribed mandate. No "handbook" being written. Rather, the question is about "if you care to blend in, in public what is best?"

I hope that the closeted cross dressers out there who are thinking about going out and have read this thread reach some perspective on the issue.

[ReineD]

I take exception to the word "tacky" used within this context, as this is far too broad of a generalization.

I, for one, have never dressed "tacky" when out in "Leslie" mode,

It's true that "tacky (http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2375/3539347477_9781937634.jpg)" (not to be confused with "kitschy (http://blog.bridgetteraes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Ugly-Christmas-Sweater-6th.jpg?9d7bd4)") is subjective and the description changes depending on someone's socio-economic background, but I think it's safe to say that most people know when they see "tacky". It's when the clothes don't suit the person's age or body type, if the message is "look at me, I'm so sexy".

The above "tacky" pic link was taken from this site, "5 Great Ways To Wear A Mini Dress (http://nexteditiononline.com/5-great-ways-to-wear-a-mini-dress/)".

[Sometimes Steffi]

For me, it's more important to dress for the venue than to dress my age. So, I'm more likely wear jeans to the mall rather than a skirt or dress, because that is more typical. And if I'm clubbing, I would wear a skirt or dress, perhaps with a sparkly top.

I do try to dress my age, but only approximately. I'm almost 60 and I wouldn't go out of the house in daisy duke short shorts, but I may go out attempting to look 45 not 60.

My biggest problem is my unwillingness to shave my body hair which limits how much skin I'm willing to expose. I also can't walk in high heels, so I opt for lower clunkier heels.

Without trying to brag, my weight (150 lbs) is proportional to my height, (5' 9") which not every 60 yo GG can claim, so I think that allows me to dress somewhat younger. And while I'm on the tall side for a GG, I think my size is more or less in line with typcal GGs.

[julia marie]

I look for clothes that I like, that fit my body type, that I think others might find attractive, and that are comfortable (which, with winter here I realize includes somewhat warm). I find myself looking at what GGs who are (as others have mentioned 10 or so years younger than me) are wearing and look good with, and I try to translate their selections into something that would fit me appropriately. No worries, I won't be walking the streets looking like a street walker. If others like that look, good luck.

[AllyCDTV]

Oh, I disagree. My SO who is middle-aged is anything but tacky when she goes out. She does not wear super tight clothes, skirts or dresses that look good on a size 4 college girl, or stilettos (aka f***k-me shoes). lol. I think it's entirely possible to dress in a way that blends, while at the same time indulging in a love of fashion, since there are so many fashion choices out there. :)While many of us try to dress to blend in, there are just some things that will always betray us, such as facial features, a 5 o' clock shadow, our height, the size of our hands, the way we walk, stand or talk. Those will always give us away and ruin the illusion. In my thinking, once the illusion is blown, the clothes make no difference. And thinking about it, I also take exception to the word "tachy" and should not have used it in my reply. It is judgmental, demeaning and inappropriate.

[Aylineira]

I agree with the OP.

This is actually the reason why I don't go out en femme lots of times since the clothes I like to wear are too dressy.

[ReineD]

While many of us try to dress to blend in, there are just some things that will always betray us, such as facial features, a 5 o' clock shadow, our height, the size of our hands, the way we walk, stand or talk. Those will always give us away and ruin the illusion. In my thinking, once the illusion is blown, the clothes make no difference. And thinking about it, I also take exception to the word "tachy" and should not have used it in my reply. It is judgmental, demeaning and inappropriate.

Yes, I agree with you! For most CDers, it is difficult to pass completely under the radar, to everyone, all the time. My SO manages this pretty well to most people who are in the same room and who are not paying particular attention to us (over-the-top clothing would actually cause people to stare and read her more), but the game is up the minute that she starts to talk to someone at length. But (and this is important), a lot more people accept who she is once they talk to her and see how nice she is, than you might think. We are always treated with respect. :)

Anyway, the discussion as far as I took it, was not whether a CDer is read, but whether or not s/he presents in a tacky manner. If you do not like that word, you are free to substitute it with one of your own that means the same thing (over-the-top sexy clothing given age and body type). If my SO were to walk around in a "look at me, aren't I sexy" mode, I think that people would take it she does this for fetish rather than as an expression of who she feels she is. There's a big difference between the two.

But, this might just be my own take on it. :p

Edit As for the word "tacky" being judgmental, demeaning, and inappropriate, if I were to walk around dressed as if I was in my 20s and a size 4 (I am in my 50s and a size 8), and my best girlfriend were to say that my outfit looked tacky for my age, honestly I'd appreciate her input and I'd try to look at myself more objectively. Everyone makes fashion mistakes and it takes a good friend to say it like it is. If you had spinach stuck in your teeth, would you want your best friend to not say anything?

[IngeInCO]

I expected a lively debate and that's a good thing. To those who didn't understand the question, there is no prescribed mandate. No "handbook" being written. Rather, the question is about "if you care to blend in, in public what is best?"

I hope that the closeted cross dressers out there who are thinking about going out and have read this thread reach some perspective on the issue.

I think one should dress how they feel and makes them happy. There are those that can wear clothing that is of a younger style, good for you! However, in my opinion most look out of place. I worked in a "cool" industry for 20 years and it was odd to see a 50 year old man dressed as a skater, not that i don't like the skater look... but some don't fit. I do also notice women dressed "too young" for their age and I'm not a fan, even if they have the looks to carry it off. In the end there is no "Handbook" for gg's, gm's, cd's, ts's etc... We are all indivuduals.



My answer to you Jennifer is that I think if one is trying to blend in they should wear appropriate clothes. Boys or Girls. My wife and I are about the same age so it's easy for me. Now I do have "Inge Time" occasionally where I can experiment.

[LadyPilot]

Speaking strictly of CDers though, when they dress way younger or with shorter dresses, or body hugging clothes for their ages (or body types), they are noticed and stared at even more, just as are the GGs who do the same thing ... and not for good reasons.

I fully agree that the way you are dressed will depend on how people will look at you. I am quilty of pointing out the "wrongness" on how people dress just am I am sure many of us are. Therefore, it is safe to say people will point out the "wrongness" of the clothes I wear.

[kathrynt21]

I try to dress in a way that would be appropriate for someone my age. I want to be comfortable and pretty but also try to dress as I would if I could dress out and about all day. I like trying to present outwardly how I feel inwardly. And that is a 59 yo!

[Angela Campbell]

It is easy for me. I was married twice and bought all of my spouses clothes - they both hated shopping - and I am pretty good at getting appropriate clothes. If I go out I want to look like a LADY nice and well dressed in nice clothes that are similar to what other women are wearing in the same situation. Always nice and never sloppy looking and not intentionally sexy, but if I am sexy well that is ok too as long as it is not overdone. My hope is that when I get clocked they just think....that might be a man but I am not sure....rather than OMG look at that!

[Miriam-J]

I'm with the 'dress your age' crowd, and I definitely try to blend in so as not to attract attention. But I continue to try to figure out the interpretation.

I'm 52, which has me squarely in middle age, but I have smooth, taut skin for my age (no facial wrinkles) and have to wear a wig due to my near total lack of head hair. I wear a wig chosen to go well with my light brown eyebrows and eyelashes (no gray), and is shaped to complement my facial shape.

I don't try to look 20, but with my wig and smooth skin can easily pass for 35 to 40 - or so I'm told. So, again ... what does it mean to dress my age? Should I dress like 40, or 50? My personal tastes tend to be pretty conservative, which shifts it toward he old end, but my wife encourages me to dress more boldly, more toward the young end of my appearance. Still working this out within my financial and other constraints.

The same concern goes for makeup. Other than the foundation needed to cover my facial hair, I try to do matchup with what I see GGs around me doing. This doesn't seem to range as much in the age range of interest. I generally see makeup kept basic, with a barely noticeable lipstick, eye shadow in shades of brown, light layer of mascara (if any), and little or no liner for ladies from 40 to 60 or so. I think I can match up with this.

Miriam

[windycissy]

I've learned many things from Allie, and one of them is to let yourself go and enjoy life as a girl to the max. Two things make it possible for Allie to wear sexy, killer clothes and fit right in: she has an amazing physique, great legs and a knack for doing her makeup and wig to make herself look very youthful, and she lives in the San Francisco Bay Area, where anything goes. I'm much more reserved and like you, I try to blend in whenever possible, which includes dressing very conservatively but when I'm with Allie in San Francisco or Las Vegas, I let myself go!

[AllyCDTV]

Yes, I agree with you! For most CDers, it is difficult to pass completely under the radar, to everyone, all the time. My SO manages this pretty well to most people who are in the same room and who are not paying particular attention to us (over-the-top clothing would actually cause people to stare and read her more), but the game is up the minute that she starts to talk to someone at length. But (and this is important), a lot more people accept who she is once they talk to her and see how nice she is, than you might think. We are always treated with respect. :)

Anyway, the discussion as far as I took it, was not whether a CDer is read, but whether or not s/he presents in a tacky manner. If you do not like that word, you are free to substitute it with one of your own that means the same thing (over-the-top sexy clothing given age and body type). If my SO were to walk around in a "look at me, aren't I sexy" mode, I think that people would take it she does this for fetish rather than as an expression of who she feels she is. There's a big difference between the two.

But, this might just be my own take on it. :p

Edit As for the word "tacky" being judgmental, demeaning, and inappropriate, if I were to walk around dressed as if I was in my 20s and a size 4 (I am in my 50s and a size 8), and my best girlfriend were to say that my outfit looked tacky for my age, honestly I'd appreciate her input and I'd try to look at myself more objectively. Everyone makes fashion mistakes and it takes a good friend to say it like it is. If you had spinach stuck in your teeth, would you want your best friend to not say anything?I think the key here is that there can be many goals for the way someone dresses. Gaining respect is one of them. Some may also want to dress to gain attention, even if that is negative attention. My attitude is, to each their own.

Words have power. I think the word "tacky" has some bad connotations associated with it and that there are better ways to express an idea than to use such an emotionally charged word. I would certainly appreciate someone pointing out that I had something stuck in my teeth. I would not appreciate it if all they said was that my mouth looked tacky, unless they were a close friend and said it with a smile.

Getting back to the original question about age appropriateness, there can be many "ages" we can have. The age in terms of years we have been alive, the age we think we can get away with the age that we feel we are, the age that we look like from 100 ft. away, the age that we look like from 3 feet away, the age we look like in soft light, the age we look like in bright sunlight . . Who is to say which age we should go by? It is not up to someone else to decide.

Now if fitting in is your goal, that depends on where you want to fit. If you are going shopping at the mall, that is one thing. If you are attending a drag queen convention, it will take a lot different set of clothes to fit in there.

[dee anne]

Graet debate
My opinion is this
at home if I want to be dareing, try anything, take a photo and look at it. Most times it is not something that I want to publish. However i like to dress and look like any other girl so if I am trying to go out i will dress less adventuressely( is that a word). draw the attentoin that you wish to.

Dee Anne

[Alice Torn]

Nothing much turns my head more, than a senior lady, still in great shape, in a dress, or skirt and heels, and silver or salt and pepper hair also turns my clock. I am 58, and seldom go out in the public eye, but i think i pull it off fairly well.

[MssHyde]

Jennifer
your right, as I see it blend in!

[NathalieX66]

I always dress appropriate for the occasion, and for my demographic:

If it's shopping at the mall or the grocery store, or saturday night at the movies ,it's usually jeans, and a woman's top and a scarf, boots or flats or sandals. I still feel like I'm on Team Woman

If it's meeting a friend at a restaurant, it's often a dress or skirt...same with footwear mentioned above.

If it's something big or glam or fun, it will be the LBD.....the little black dress or something sexy with heels.

I'm going to say something in defense of the first, that is dressing casually gives me unlimited freedom anywhere without being gawped at. I feel like I blend right in, and that is a very reassuring feeling. It may not be as much fun as wearing a sexy dress & heels, but I am out in the public eye, and to tell you the truth I prefer it way more than just wearing my guy clothes.

[drushin703]

When I first started buying my own clothes they all came from the Salvation Army thrift store. You can certainly find some nice, stylish items there but I
noticed that the cheeper, less expensive items were also the older, more out of date items. So when I first went out in public I was dressed like driving
Ms Daisy with long cinched waist patterned frocks, which although cute, were definately not age appropriate. You (me) have to see what other women
are wearing to fully understand our place in this fashion matrix.

Is there truly such a thing as age appropriateness? Why not just style appropriateness//Wow! this being a girl stuff has too many complicated
variables.

[Bree Wagner]

I always dress appropriate for the occasion, and for my demographic:

If it's shopping at the mall or the grocery store, or saturday night at the movies ,it's usually jeans, and a woman's top and a scarf, boots or flats or sandals. I still feel like I'm on Team Woman

If it's meeting a friend at a restaurant, it's often a dress or skirt...same with footwear mentioned above.

If it's something big or glam or fun, it will be the LBD.....the little black dress or something sexy with heels.

I'm going to say something in defense of the first, that is dressing casually gives me unlimited freedom anywhere without being gawped at. I feel like I blend right in, and that is a very reassuring feeling. It may not be as much fun as wearing a sexy dress & heels, but I am out in the public eye, and to tell you the truth I prefer it way more than just wearing my guy clothes.

I think you nailed it for me too Nathalie.

Also, your Team Woman line gave me quite a chuckle. Well done!

-Bree

[ReineD]

Now if fitting in is your goal, that depends on where you want to fit. If you are going shopping at the mall, that is one thing. If you are attending a drag queen convention, it will take a lot different set of clothes to fit in there.

Again, I agree. In fact, I've dressed on the tacky side when going to drag shows (see my post #42), but that was OK since anything goes in a nightclub. My earlier points referred to going to the mall, restaurants, or shows in the mainstream. People (men, women, and CDs) can dress how they please, but they will be judged (or noticed for the wrong reasons) if they dress in certain ways and this includes people who dress much younger than their age, or in a manner that is not suitable for their body weight, or in a manner that is more sexually suggestive than the venue calls for.

I spoke to my SO over dinner about my use of the word "tacky". I didn't think there was anything wrong with it, since as you say, I do feel as if I am among friends here. I did not accuse anyone on this board of being tacky. Anyway, my SO did agree that my manner of dress was tacky when I wore the ultra short form fitting dress, with thigh high stiletto boots. lol. I wasn't insulted by this. :p

[AllieSF]

To clarify a bit before I proceed. If someone's goal is to blend in, then obviously, dressing in bright pink at a Goethe gathering will not help much. Though, I have seen that before and loved the contrast, and also ended up dancing with that sweet 30 year younger out of place thing for half the evening. I was also wearing a shorter (probably shorter than the fashion police here would think "appropriate) pink patchwork suede skirt, tights and boots and showing the little cleavage that I could create. So, yes, whether it is age appropriate, venue appropriate, or as I like to put it, you look good and fit in appropriate, that is the way to go, IF you are trying to blend in. However, my comments to Jennifer's post in that other thread were not about those wanting to blend in, but rather a person's right to dress as they please when and where they please.

I have read comments by some here that say, if you can't dress to blend in then stay at home and don't embarrass us. That is where my hot button gets pushed really hard. Who are they to dictate their requirements on others? Who made them God for a day? I have even read here that if a CD doesn't come near to passing they should stay home too! So, going out in the real world should only be permitted to those that blend well and dress appropriately? I think not.

So what happens when our fashion and presentation experts say that someone should dress age, venue or whatever appropriate to those that dress the way they want when they go out? Someone has to set a standard and who is that? How short is too short for a skirt (there has even been a thread or two on that very topic here)? Is that with or without opaque tights, sheer nylons or bare legs? What is the venue? What is age appropriate, actual age, imagined age, approximate age based on whose criteria? Who sets those so called "rules"? I see all these limitations as as a form censorship by others wanting everyone else to dress like they do or as they think is best for them, society and our transgendered world. I reject those limitations, not because I want the right to dress badly, which I really try to avoid, but because I want the right for each individual to decide what is best for them, not for me nor anyone else. It always amazes me when here we are on this support site looking for tolerance and acceptance, as well as, the freedom to be ourselves as we see fit, and then some want to put limits on those freedoms because they do not fit someone's idea of what is proper for them, us and everyone else. I do not always like how some people dress and present themselves whether in their own home or out in public. Sometimes I just don't get it. If I do not like how someone dresses, I do not have to associate with them, or if I want to, I can limit my time with them to venue appropriate moments. However, I will never deny them the right to present themselves to others as they see fit, as long as they are not breaking some serious law. We are all adults here and are responsible for our own actions. So, the person that dresses inappropriately to whoever's standards should be ready to accept the consequences to their own actions and decisions.

I read here many times that some believe that what we do can negatively affect us transgenders (in the broad definition of that word). I understand what they are saying and I usually respond that it does not hurt us in the long run. Clarifying that some, is that whatever impact it may have on the limited few that may react negatively to seeing one of us, is so minuscule that it will not effect negatively the overall impact that happens when more of us are out on the real world actually interfacing with others. Blacks were shunned from television. Who were some of the first successful black television artists? Comedians making fun of life and themselves. Same goes for gays and some other minorities. The benefit is not from the humor per se, but more from the continued and increased exposure of that minority to the real world through media, movies and television. It worked and is still working for them, and it will work the same for us too. The more of us that are proudly out there then the better overall results we will have for our cause/movement and desires.

I do understand that we are sometimes, and that sometimes in my opinion is a lot less frequent than many here believe and thus profess to others, fighting an uphill battle against the truly negative people out there. From my personal experiences and the experiences of others here the truly negative people are so much in the minority. However, I also believe that most people are not naturally negative and put off by us. They are just surprised to actually run into one of us, and other than being something different to their own experiences, are not immediately shunned and deemed unacceptable human beings. For every negative anticipated reaction that some here are afraid of and state so vociferously, I read others' real experiences totally different and positive, mine included.

So in summary:

If you dress to blend, then by all means dress appropriately.

If you want to dress as you wish and go out, blending or not, then by all means please do so and enjoy and tell all the naysayers to pound sand.

[AllyCDTV]

my SO did agree that my manner of dress was tacky when I wore the ultra short form fitting dress, with thigh high stiletto boots. lol. I wasn't insulted by this. :p Now I on the other hand, would have called that hot.:D

[ReineD]

Now I on the other hand, would have called that hot.:D

Hot yes, if I were 20! And I could get away with it (I suppose) in a dark night club with lots of makeup on. But under bright lights, for example stopping by the 24-hour grocery store on the way home for breakfast things? No. Tacky. My outfit did not go well at all with my not 20 year old face. lol

If one of my sons had seen me in that getup, I would have died! :p

[MonctonGirl]

I disagree very much. I don't dress to please others, I dress to please myself. I am 67 years old, have a beard, and go out in public in skirts every day.

This is a serious, sincere question - nothing more than that. I seek to understand your point of view:

Since you have a beard and are obviously not trying to "pass" as a female ...

1) Do you identify yourself as a "male to female crossdresser"?

I ask because it would seem more like you are a man who wears women's clothing.
That therefor confuses me in that my opinion of a "crossdresser" was one who attempts to pass.

That is, are do you refer to yourself as "en femme" when you go out , despite no intention to pass?

Perhaps there should be a hybrid term to describe those who do and those who do not and those who wish they could "pass"

That might clarify a lot of the infighting here.

That is, to realize that we belong to microgroups of a subgroup of society.

[ReineD]

So what happens when our fashion and presentation experts say that someone should dress age, venue or whatever appropriate to those that dress the way they want when they go out? Someone has to set a standard and who is that?

The basis for my own argument (not sure about other people) is how OTHERS (generally) view men, women, AND CDers who dress inappropriately for their ages, body types, or the venue. Not just CDers. I think this is what Jennifer was getting at in her OP, unless I misread it. It has nothing to do with how individuals choose to dress based on what makes them feel good. I for one believe that everyone has the right to dress the way they want to. BUT, if someone goes out in the mainstream dressed way too young for his/her age and/or body type, or in clothing that is sexually inappropriate for the venue, and she is stared at, she must not mistake those stares for admiration. Generally speaking. This goes for CDers AND GGs, and also men, but I think to a lesser degree.

I know that we could put 100 pictures up of both CDers and GGs in various outfits, and if we each voted on what was tacky or not there would be differences of opinion. But, for many of those pics, there would be no argument and this would likely be skirts that are way too short, heels that are way too high, too much skin showing, etc, on someone who is older, or heavier, and who is dressing for a mainstream venue and not a nightclub. These things are difficult to specify using words in posts (as you say, how does anyone decide how short is too short since there are several things in the overall appearance that put together, give the impression of tacky), but it is something that most people just know when they see it. :p

Last, it is debatable as to whether the CDers who present as men in drag, or who present an overly sexualized/stereotypical version of female, adversely affect those who wish to just blend and not try to call attention to themselves, other than be respected as feminine beings. I think we'd have to take a large survey among the muggles and ask them if they judge each CDer they see on her own merit, or if they look at the more outlandish presentations and judge everyone based on that. I tend to think that each person is viewed based on her own presentation and her own merit, and not based on what others do.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's another discussion beginning in this thread about CDers who go out dressed as women but who present as men. I think this is a fascinating topic. It is debatable, however, whether these CDers see themselves as male-to-female crossdressers (as MonctonGirl asks), or if they see themselves as genderqueer (bigender or androgyne ... whatever term might be used), or if they are feminine men who want to redefine men's clothing styles to allow for male feminine expression. Likely all three motives are true depending on the individual. As interesting as this topic is and as much as I enjoy following the discussion, I'd love to see it in another thread since I think it falls outside of Jennifer's scope? I think a lot more people would participate in the discussion if it were in its own thread. :)

[audreyinalbany]

(trying to say this as respectfully as possible, please don't read too much into it), I think those of us who are out and about dressed inappropriately for the chosen venue fit into what the majority of the public think of as a "stereotypical" (i.e.comedic) cross dresser, and, as such, may not contribute much to our overall acceptance.

[Wildaboutheels]

It's one thing to "worry" about what our friends, siblings, coworkers, acquaintances, etc. might think of WHAT we are wearing...

It's a horse of a different feather to "worry" about what Joe Doe Public thinks. Certainly you don't worry if JDP approves of the car you drive? It ISSSSSS just the clothes JDP is going to "see" unless they/you choose to interact as Humans by actually having a conversation or exchanging a few words. Actions and WORDS speak much louder than what one is wearing. Don't they?

That's the saddest aspect of this Forum IMO. So few here seem to realize that the person in THEIR own mirror along with the vast majority of the members here are your own worst enemy. JDP does not ACTIVELY LOOK to bust other Humans when they are out and about doing their own thing. CD busting is generally a hobby confined to other CDers. I'd be willing to put money on it.

Wear what you want and treat people with courtesy and respect and you are likely to never have any problem at all. As many here will attest to. And IF they are smiling on the outside...but perhaps laughing on the inside? So what? I promise you the world will not end.

It wouldn't be the first time someone laughed at you would it?

[Chickhe]

I don't get it...its obvious, there are social rules to follow if you want to fit in. If you want to stick out, then be different. The original question should have been, 'as a CDer how do I know what the rules are?'....and I think that's the root of the problem, as CDers we have limited exposure to the real world the way most women do, so we have no clue what to wear...many have this ideal image they try to replicate which is fine in your own world, but in the real world there are so many variables, how to you figure out what you look best in? So far, I've found its like an art...people can tell you rules, but your skills as an artist come in to play...I think its not what you wear, its how you pull it off...

[ReineD]

as CDers we have limited exposure to the real world the way most women do, so we have no clue what to wear...many have this ideal image they try to replicate which is fine in your own world, but in the real world ...

You may have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

[Foxglove]

So in summary:

If you dress to blend, then by all means dress appropriately.

If you want to dress as you wish and go out, blending or not, then by all means please do so and enjoy and tell all the naysayers to pound sand.

Allie, I sympathize with what you're saying here. I'm in the "Your Choice" camp. All my life I've dressed according to other people's expectations. Why continue to do that now that I'm out?

I do dress "age appropriate". What that means is dresses and skirts because GG's my age still frequently wear such, and that's what I like anyway. And it doesn't mean short dresses and skirts. I don't have a single one above the knees, and in this cold weather the skirts I wear are all well below the knees, a couple of them almost down to my ankles. You will see some GG's (though a small minority) wearing stuff like that, and I figure that if even a few GG's dress like that, I can, too.

I don't blend, however. I think it's a waste of time. I live in a very small town where everybody knows me. I'm not going to blend, so why worry about it? I have a nice-looking coat and hat, and I have some nice skirts and boots. The result is that for the little errands I have to do in town, I'm fairly seriously over-dressed. I don't care. Mainly because on occasion I see a GG seriously overdressed. If a few GG's can do it, so can I.

As far as make-up goes, I give myself the works--every day. I've tried toning it down a bit, but the fact is that without the works I look awful. And I want to look good. The result is that when I'm on the town I feel nice about myself and I'm happy. Let those who find something wrong with that say what they like. And what will cispeople being saying about me? I don't really know. I've had a few compliments from women that sounded more or less sincere. But if what they're saying about me is that I'm the transperson who's always overdressed, that's OK. If any of them have any negative thoughts about my appearance, they keep them to themselves.

I don't like this notion that there are certain criteria that we have to meet when we're out. A lot of the time there aren't any criteria for cispeople. There's lots of them that I think look pretty awful most of the time. So do I have to dress to match their standards? If I were going to worry about that, I might as well stay in drab. No, I do what makes me happy.

Annabelle

[AllieSF]

The basis for my own argument (not sure about other people) is how OTHERS (generally) view men, women, AND CDers who dress inappropriately for their ages, body types, or the venue. Not just CDers. I think this is what Jennifer was getting at in her OP, unless I misread it. It has nothing to do with how individuals choose to dress based on what makes them feel good. I for one believe that everyone has the right to dress the way they want to. BUT, if someone goes out in the mainstream dressed way too young for his/her age and/or body type, or in clothing that is sexually inappropriate for the venue, and she is stared at, she must not mistake those stares for admiration. Generally speaking. This goes for CDers AND GGs, and also men, but I think to a lesser degree.

I know that we could put 100 pictures up of both CDers and GGs in various outfits, and if we each voted on what was tacky or not there would be differences of opinion. But, for many of those pics, there would be no argument and this would likely be skirts that are way too short, heels that are way too high, too much skin showing, etc, on someone who is older, or heavier, and who is dressing for a mainstream venue and not a nightclub. These things are difficult to specify using words in posts (as you say, how does anyone decide how short is too short since there are several things in the overall appearance that put together, give the impression of tacky), but it is something that most people just know when they see it. :p

Last, it is debatable as to whether the CDers who present as men in drag, or who present an overly sexualized/stereotypical version of female, adversely affect those who wish to just blend and not try to call attention to themselves, other than be respected as feminine beings. I think we'd have to take a large survey among the muggles and ask them if they judge each CDer they see on her own merit, or if they look at the more outlandish presentations and judge everyone based on that. I tend to think that each person is viewed based on her own presentation and her own merit, and not based on what others do.

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There's another discussion beginning in this thread about CDers who go out dressed as women but who present as men. I think this is a fascinating topic. It is debatable, however, whether these CDers see themselves as male-to-female crossdressers (as MonctonGirl asks), or if they see themselves as genderqueer (bigender or androgyne ... whatever term might be used), or if they are feminine men who want to redefine men's clothing styles to allow for male feminine expression. Likely all three motives are true depending on the individual. As interesting as this topic is and as much as I enjoy following the discussion, I'd love to see it in another thread since I think it falls outside of Jennifer's scope? I think a lot more people would participate in the discussion if it were in its own thread. :)

I understand what you are saying Reine and I also prefer people to dress "better" sometimes. However, when someone here talks negatively about that harried housewife trying to fit in some last minute shopping during a very busy errand day and she happens to be wearing her old velvet sweat pants, that poster will get hammered and rightfully so. When the poster suggests, even politely, that dressing a bit better to go out would be better, again hammered. Now, we have a similar situation when a crossdresser goes out and doesn't dress as others, and maybe even myself sometimes, consider to be appropriate. The complainer doesn't get hammered/criticized for complaining, it is the CD because they dressed inappropriately based on someone else's standards. For both cases, GG's and CD's, let them dress as they want and let them deal with the consequences of their outfit choices. Why criticize them, GG's or MtF CD's, and have these threads about dressing appropriately when out? If someone asks for an opinion, then by all means opine. I do that too suggesting that they go out to fit in rather than stand out, especially when it is in the beginning when they are trying to get enough confidence to go out in the fit place. Once they gain the confidence, then dress as you wish.

I like your last sentence, "I tend to think that each person is viewed based on her own presentation and her own merit, and not based on what others do." I understand that to mean that if someone was dressed inappropriately, acted appropriately and maybe even had some good interaction with that person in your sentence, then that person would look beyond the outside and into the inner being and probably surmise, "Here is a nice person dressed oddly" and then move on with their own life. I also like what Wildaboutheels says, "Wear what you want and treat people with courtesy and respect and you are likely to never have any problem at all." That is what I do and I have almost 100% success with that, and I vary my looks sometimes all over the place within my own dress appropriately guidelines, even when said guidelines may be far outside someone else's limits.

So, I am not asking everyone to like what they see others do, but to readily grant them the liberty to dress as they please and to please quit complaining about it and to quit directly or indirectly trying to coerce them into following their own personal standards.

[sherib]

You are absolutley correct. If your in your home, dress the way you want, but when your in public you dress appropriatly.

[DonniDarkness]

at the end of this debate the only thing that holds truth is the fact that we are judging each other based on clothing.

its not about what we wear its about our demeanor.

-Donni-

[ReineD]

I like your last sentence, "I tend to think that each person is viewed based on her own presentation and her own merit, and not based on what others do." I understand that to mean that if someone was dressed inappropriately, acted appropriately and maybe even had some good interaction with that person in your sentence, then that person would look beyond the outside and into the inner being and probably surmise, "Here is a nice person dressed oddly" and then move on with their own life.

No, I meant that if the average person sees a fetishy looking CDer, he or she will not transfer the opinion that *all* CDers must be perverts, to someone whom they meet like my SO, who dresses to blend into the mainstream. But, I may be wrong about this, I just don't know.


However, when someone here talks negatively about that harried housewife trying to fit in some last minute shopping during a very busy errand day and she happens to be wearing her old velvet sweat pants, that poster will get hammered and rightfully so. When the poster suggests, even politely, that dressing a bit better to go out would be better, again hammered. Now, we have a similar situation when a crossdresser goes out and doesn't dress as others, and maybe even myself sometimes, consider to be appropriate. The complainer doesn't get hammered/criticized for complaining, it is the CD because they dressed inappropriately based on someone else's standards.

OK, I see where this is coming from. But, I don't think we can compare the poorly dressed GG to the over-the-top CD, for several reasons:

The poorly dressed GG doesn't give the impression that she is a fetishist. Also, there is no fear that the poorly dressed GG reflects negatively on all GGs, simply because everyone knows and understands that there is a wide variety of GGs. But, this is not the case with CDers. We are just coming out of an age where by and large, CDers were considered Perverts with a capital "P". Although this is beginning to change, there still remains stigma in several pockets of our society (maybe not where you live), there are still fathers who would not want you to marry their daughters, there are still GGs who want nothing to do with this, there are still employers who do not want to deal with this, and so I can see why some members here are anxious to not be associated with CDers who sexualize the CDing in the mainstream public (not nightclubs).



For both cases, GG's and CD's, let them dress as they want and let them deal with the consequences of their outfit choices.

Absolutely, and this does happen. People do go out dressed as they will, and deal with people's reactions. But a twist to the discussion that is a tangent from your point above, is that a GG who goes out dressed in sweats with no makeup, is not stared at. She KNOWS that she is not turning heads, lol, nor does she care about turning heads. She just wants to do her grocery shopping and go home. She's not trying to be a sex-pot. But, a CDer who is dressed inappropriately for his/her age, body type, or for the venue might notice that s/he gets stared at, and she may mistake this for admiration, while the people who are looking at her may be thinking entirely different things. I, for one, would want a reality check from my friends on my appearance.


EDIT - I've just re-read my post and realize that I used a term liberally that makes many people cringe here including me and my SO, the "P" word. I hope you all know that I am not describing how I feel, but rather how many people feel, who know little about transness. As unpleasant as this is, the DSM is just being changed NOW, to remove the paraphilic (fetish, aka pervert) association with Gender Dysphoria, in fact, they are finally going to stop calling it a psychological disorder. But, there is still a ways to go before the world will look at cross-gender expression as being just normal, like we do here.