Fantasy or Reality

[ReineD]

Following this thread,
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?186359-Fantasy-question-your-dream-girl-would-you-choose-to-be-WITH-her-or-BE-her,

... I'd like to rephrase the question just to see if the answers are the same.

How many of you would still want to BE her, if instead of being a "really attractive woman", you were simply a feminine version of yourselves which, if you fall within the average range in terms of looks, would be just an ordinary looking woman like most of us out there. You know, the ones who don't get whistled at, who don't have men tripping over themselves to open their door … the women who go to the grocery store and no one pays particular attention to them because they look just like everyone else.

If you substitute the mental image of a 10+ model with an image of the unassuming and average looking female your age who lives down your street, would you still want to be her?

Thanks for your responses! I really am wondering about this.

[~Joanne~]

Interesting question. In all honesty, I have never wanted to be anyone else but to just be myself and to be comfortable with the same. Being "me" sometimes seems to be a lot of work lol

For the sake of answering the question though. Yes. I could be the plain jane that most don't pay attention to just to see how I could work it around to getting the attention if I really needed such a thing. It would be interesting to say the least.

[Kate Simmons]

That thought always came to my mind Reine. If I had been a FAB I probably would have gotten married younger than I did, had a great husband and a family. I could never assume I would be a fashion plate with the exception of going out once in a while with my Hubby and dressing to the nines. If I were HER, my focus would be on my family, not my looks and even if some women are not drop dead gorgeous, they are satisfied with their lives in that respect as they have fulfilled part of their dreams. It would work for me my friend.:battingeyelashes::)

[suzy1]

I just like being me Reine. So no, I would not want to be her or even a good looking women.

My feminine side is real but it’s also what I am comfortable with. I like me as I am.:)

[Jaymees22]

I would prefer to be the girl next door, but slightly better than average. I'm a little vain whether I'm dressed or not. Jaymee

[Lorileah]

, if instead of being a "really attractive woman", you were simply a feminine version of yourselves


so let me get this straight, I would be me. You would not change me except I got to be a female. Can I have hair, because hair is sort of important. Oh and can I have ribs that are not barrel shaped but maybe a bit more V? But otherwise I would look like I look now? But female.

In that case...:yippee::yahoo::banana::clap2::jump:

Maybe

[stephNE]

I didn't resond to the first thread, I thought about it but couldn't come up with a good response.
But in this case, I feel I can answer. No, I don't want to be her. I just want to be me. I am mostly happy as a male, but am also very comfortable when I let my feminine side out.

[Barbara Jo]

Personally, I would love to be and interact as just an averge looking, feminine female .
It shoud be understood thas most GGs wish they were more beautiful so , yeah it would be nice to be a raving beauty . However I would be happy just to be able to look and be treated like the average woman.

I should point out point out that even as a male, I watch my weight and would as a female also. :)

[KimberlyJean]

I would love to be the female version of myself, is it cheating though if I think she would hot. As much time and effort as I have put into my male fitness I can only assume that I would have a very nice female body. I wouldn't want to change anything about my life except the fact that I was born a girl and did girl things with as much passion as I have pursued my male life. Oh and my wife would have to either become male or a lesbian.

[suchacutie]

I definitely don't want to be anyone else.

When I see a striking woman, the thoughts I have are very localized and focused and follow the idea: "how is she making herself so attractive?"

We've all seen the makeover pics on the web where ordinary people (of any gender) go into the makeover room and emerge looking just fantastic!!! It's those tricks, and the understanding of what it means to be attractive that we can all learn from in a big way:)

[Jana]

I stick with my original answer: I'd like to BE her, not with her.

[kimdl93]

I didn't respond to that thread because its not where I'm at. I don't dress with the fantasy of ebing a 10 plus, eight or five, but rather, an approximation of myself as a woman. I am, at best, that rather tall, solidly built lady at the grocery store.

[AllieSF]

Haven't read the other thread yet. In answer to this one, since I am happy in male and in female modes, if I could switch to being a real woman when I would want (temporarily), then she would have to be good looking, nice figure and with my personality. We are fantasizing, right??

[Angela Campbell]

I would rather be an ugly woman than a good looking man.

[Christie ann]

I have wanted to be a girl since as long as I can remember. Its that whole trapped in the wrong body thing. So, yes I would rather be me as a girl than me as a boy.

That is actually very liberating just to say.

[MssHyde]

I would be very happy with out the male chromosome natural version of myself

XXX
Cheyenne

[Ms. Laura]

My answer is the same. I would be content with my female equivalent. Only temporarily, right?

[Miriam-J]

I can relate to this question better than the other as it gets me thinking a bit more. Thanks, Reine.

I highly value my guy life and will always regard my guy roles as the primary part of my life, so my answer would be 'no'. But I certainly do wish there was an easy way to shift easily to the gal side when I want - but that'll have to remain a fiction. Wish I had room in my life for magic, but I value reality too highly.

Miriam

[Barbara Dugan]

I'v asked myself the same question thousand of times, I have to be honest that when I dress is to get some form of attention particular from guys but at the same time when I see a normal looking lady on my favorite place (The Home Depot) either shopping or working there I always think to myself that would be super nice be her

[Marlana]

I'm not sure who "she" is as I've never been fully made up with a wig and gone into public. i don't want to be the 10+ model. I would be happy if I could just wear what I want without the mockery or judgement issues. Once Marlana gets out and I see who she is, I may want to be her more than me right now. I work with a lot of women of different ranges and I see what they go through to present themselves. I would like to have to go through that to see if that's who I really am. Great question...

[JustWendy]

Reine – It’s hard to answer your post, because the premise is faulty. I’ve seen pictures you’ve posted, and you are no ordinary looking woman. But let me try to answer your question.

I don’t want to be a woman, I’m not looking to transition. But when I dress, I really like the person looking back at me from the mirror – even without makeup. If I were to become a woman, I wouldn’t want to be anyone else.

Wendy

[Laura912]

For me, it is not being either one but the ability to move between the two and each has part of the other such that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

[AndreaCD1963]

Reine - the woman you describe is exactly who I would aspire to be. I know I'm not a "10" (in either mode). An average blending in femme presentation would be perfect!

[Rogina B]

I would be happy as a genuine female version of myself.I sure would make good use of my pussycat and perhaps I could " catch an easier ride"lol! But,I don't think I would be the type dependent on one person for support.

[Barbara Ella]

I did not respond to the first thread because it just misses what I am about, and could not get a response to it. I know who I am. SOmetimes I can see that, and I am pleased and content knowing what I have at 66 years. If I had to change I would be totally at ease with myself.

Barbara

[becky77]

Just how green is that grass? Ask me when I was younger and it would have been a straight yes, the older I get the more responsibility I have, marriage, friends, work etc and I have kinda accepted my lot in life, there is no magic, I am well aware of reality, I love my wife. But still can I be the female version of me? Yes of course at the end of the day I have never been happy as a man, I would take that option. It won't solve all my problems and it has its own challenges but I will be stronger as I will feel right.

[Shananigans]

I know this is for CDs to respond...but, as a GG, I'd have to say if some magical power came to me right now and told me I had to be either an unattractive female or an unattractive male...I'd probably go for being male. It seems like there's so much we have to apologize for already as females...and, I feel really bad when I see that some girls basically have to apologize for being sexually unattractive. It's pretty weird. But, I think it would be very hard to be an unattractive woman. Being an unattractive man isn't great either, but the worst looking men seem to have a weird sense of entitlement...so, maybe I'd have that attitude too. I guess with average looks, it doesn't quite matter. Average skates by pretty well...beautiful girls seem to get attention and so do unattractive women. "Average" seems to cause less of a splash either way. But, one person's "average" is another person's "ugly"...so, you can't win really. But, I'd probably jump bodies if I had to live as an unattractive woman. That really sucks to say...but, there you go.

[Silmaril]

I suppose even average to less-than-average looking women who look at a gorgeous woman must--on some level--think "I'd love to be her." In answer to your question, Reine, if I could swap out all my Y chromosomes for Xs and roll back the impact of starting with Ys (lose my height, broad shoulders, etc.), I'd do it in a heartbeat, even if it meant being just an average-looking gal. My exterior would finally match my soul. If you've got any insight on how to make that happen, you could make a fortune... :daydreaming:

[Sally24]

I'm pretty happy with my looks as a woman. I look much like my sister did 10 years ago. If I could lose the Y chromosome then I'd expect to have her chin and slightly smaller nose. I'd be very happy with that outcome.

[SandraV]

If you would have asked me that question when I was younger, my answer would have been yes, without a doubt.
Now however, that implies that I am wishing my dear wife and kids away, who I love dearly and would never do.
That said, I would be happier as a woman, I know that is what feels right for me.

[STACY B]

Sweet thread ,,, An if you notice most people have said any woman will do as long as it's Woman ? Get threw the door an then work on the rest I guess ? We shall see what happens ,,, Modern Medicine is a Wonderful thing nowadays ,,, So make an appointment with your MD an lets Dance ,,,LOL,,,

[Kaz]

Hi Reine, yeah I said yes in the other thread... a bout flippant maybe but I took the nature of the thread as rather lighthearted - I could have misread it!

At the stage I am at the moment I think, yes if I could a female Kaz I would like that... but I would want a return ticket! I would love to experience being a real woman. But I do not want to lose what I have built in my life. Those relationships are so special and people depend on me. I would just like to able to switch and out... this is impossible, so I am who I am...

[Diversity]

Following this thread,
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?186359-Fantasy-question-your-dream-girl-would-you-choose-to-be-WITH-her-or-BE-her,

... I'd like to rephrase the question just to see if the answers are the same.

How many of you would still want to BE her, if instead of being a "really attractive woman", you were simply a feminine version of yourselves which, if you fall within the average range in terms of looks, would be just an ordinary looking woman like most of us out there. You know, the ones who don't get whistled at, who don't have men tripping over themselves to open their door … the women who go to the grocery store and no one pays particular attention to them because they look just like everyone else.

If you substitute the mental image of a 10+ model with an image of the unassuming and average looking female your age who lives down your street, would you still want to be her?

Thanks for your responses! I really am wondering about this.


Hi Reine,
I would prefer to be the male I am, however, I would also want to be able to be the woman I have inside of me, when I want to change out of 'maledom'. I do not need to be a 10 as a female, but would want to maintain my '8-9' rating as both a male and a female.
The attention-seeking female is not for me, but the type of woman (and male) that gets a positive reaction of acceptance among people he/she meets is good enough for me.
Hope the above is helpful to you in your quest for information. If I have not answered you correctly, please let me know in a PM and I'll try to answer you.
Kind regards,
Di

[Rianna Humble]

If I qualify to answer, I guess looking like the average woman rather than a female version of Frankenstein's monster would be a nice change.

[Edyta_C]

Average looking gal would be fine. I'd like lots of hair on my head (instead of everywhere else. But on a scale of 1-10 where 10 is VaVoom, I'd settle for 5-6 middle of the pack.

Edy

[Debra Russell]

If my life would change accordingly -- a female version of my self would be great..................................Debra

[STACY B]

If I qualify to answer, I guess looking like the average woman rather than a female version of Frankenstein's monster would be a nice change.



Yea right ,, All the pretty ones say that ,,, You look GREAT ,,, Meowwwwwwwwwwwwww

[Fran Moore]

Hi Reine,

Average would be just fine with me. I like who I am, and while I am "only" average in the looks department, I think I am unique in my own way, as are most people that I know (men and women). To just be accepted for that, and appreciated for it would be more than enough. I think that an average looking woman has a lot of options to make herself seem just a little bit more appealing to others, if she chooses to do so.

[Robyn2006]

I would be very happy without the male chromosome, to be a natural version of myself XXX Cheyenne (edit)

Yes.. me too, as most have responded. Just pretty please someone remove that darn Y chromosome. Otherwise, I'd be quite happy to be just a completely feminine version of myself. I'd stop no one in their tracks, sadly, but as my Father once told me, if you can't look at yourself in the mirror and accept what you see, you've a real problem. Of course, he didn't realize I'd have more than a little bit of makeup on my side to help with that reflection… :battingeyelashes:

[Helen Grandeis]

If I were an ordinary looking woman, I would still have energy and enthusiasm which would shine forth through my smile and my eyes. This draws others as much as physical perfection. People like to feel happy and alive and seek out those people who make them feel that way.:).

[Helen Grandeis]

I know this is for CDs to respond...but, as a GG, I'd have to say if some magical power came to me right now and told me I had to be either an unattractive female or an unattractive male...I'd probably go for being male. It seems like there's so much we have to apologize for already as females...and, I feel really bad when I see that some girls basically have to apologize for being sexually unattractive. It's pretty weird. But, I think it would be very hard to be an unattractive woman. Being an unattractive man isn't great either, but the worst looking men seem to have a weird sense of entitlement...so, maybe I'd have that attitude too. I guess with average looks, it doesn't quite matter. Average skates by pretty well...beautiful girls seem to get attention and so do unattractive women. "Average" seems to cause less of a splash either way. But, one person's "average" is another person's "ugly"...so, you can't win really. But, I'd probably jump bodies if I had to live as an unattractive woman. That really sucks to say...but, there you go.
..
Karate not here, Shannon-San...

[Joanie_Shakti]

This question is hard for me to give a definite yes or no to. My ideal fantasy is to be a shapeshifter, able to change from male to female form and back at will. At 5' 9" and some 240+ pounds. I'm not happy with my body as a male. As a female, I would be satisfied with my height, but with either gender, I would want my weight to be proportioned to my height. I wouldn't have to be a Shopbop model body-wise, but an average, healthy form as a female would make me happy. I wouldn't have to be a beauty, but I would want to be at least cute, which I often see myself as in pictures with makeup and a wig on.

That said, even though I tell myself several times a day anymore that "I want to be a girl," there are things about women as a group that annoy me, just as there things that men as a group bother me too. Being a "two-spirit"* makes it hard to identify with either group completely.

I often wish that I had been born female, but would never go through any kind of sexual reassignment process. But if I could find a magic piece of labradorite to enable my shapeshifting fantasy (if there was such a thing) or if there was a great shift on December 21, placing myself in a permanent female body with total acceptance from my family, friends, and cow-orkers, I think I'd be happy.

*"Two-spirit" is a term that I just learned this week which I really identify with. It represents the "third gender" that many Native American tribes accepted. Two-spirits often became the medicine person of their tribe and were treated mostly with respect and often with fear due to their alleged power. (See picture below.)

[Marleena]

First of all Reine I think you are way above average. Me? MS. average please!

[jillleanne]

Interesting question. The answer for me is, well...... it depends. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder isn't it, so if I have to describe a beautiful woman in my eyes, one to be whistled at if you will, it does not require a beautiful face , but rather, a beautiful overall look. To me, a very average looking gg can become very exciting and sexy simply by dressing up in heels, a short skirt possibly with a revealing top, and hair, makeup and nails done. Size is of no consequence to me per say as I have seen many larger women looking very hot in my eyes simply by looking fabulous. So would I want to be the 10 on the block when en femme? Absolutely without a doubt. Can I be in reality? Not likely and getting older by the second is not helping either. I do still turn heads on occasion when out and about. Why? Not because I'm beautiful. I suppose for the very same reason I notice women; because I dress out of the ordinary and I suppose the heels, hose and skirts, hair, hoops, makeup, etc. are an exception to the rule today. Then again, maybe I'm just being read, who knows? I do know this much; when out and about, I fell like a 10 inside regardless what my outer appearance tells and that, is precisely the feeling I love the most about being gender enhanced/tg. I always do my best and try to achieve 'that' look that satisfies me as looking as sexy as possible, regardless what others think. I do it for me, not them. I am sure there are others like me that can be turned on by a very sexy dressed gg that is not near a 10 as we know it. Nothing about being ordinary turns me on mentally or physically, and therefore, have no desire to 'feel' ordinary.

[Jenniferathome]

I don't want to be a woman, I want to be a passable cross dresser. I would prefer to be considered attractive as opposed to being dumpy or even plain but passable, shopping for myself and chatting with the store sales people. All the while, them thinking that I was female when in female mode.

[christinac]

I've always been the type more attracted to personality than to looks and most of the GG's I greatly admire I admire because their personality and sense of style. If I could be a woman I would be the stay at home mom or the lady that works by her husbands side at the shop or on the job.

[Leah Lynn]

Yes, I'll take a female version of me.

[RiverdanceGirl]

What most people consider a 10+ woman, and I myself consider a 10+ woman might be significantly different, and also I've always been looking from the perspective of wanting to be, not wanting to be with. I'll describe a really attractive woman from my perspective. She's going to be somewhere between 5'2" and 5'6". She won't be skinny to the point of shapelessness, she'll have feminine curves. She'll weigh somewhere in the 120-140 lb range. She won't have big boobs. A B-cup is fine. What's really important is how she presents herself. She'd have dark brown or black hair in a classic bob and it would be really bouncy and shiny. Her nails and makeup would be impeccable. Probably she'd have dark nail polish and smoky eyes. She might wear glasses. Glasses are hot. She wears sliver jewellery not gold. She'd have on a black turtleneck sweater, a tartan skirt falling a little above the knee (her legs would have great muscle tone). She'd be wearing opaque tights and chunky shoes with no more than 3" heels. Possibly mary janes. She would exude an air of class and intelligence and would smell really nice but in a subtle way (i.e. not causing eyes to water at 20 paces). That's a 10+ woman for me and definitely given the chance I would be her.

Now on the other hand, if we are talking the XX version of me, it's fair to say that most of the women in my family are well above average attractiveness. In her youth my mother was often compared to Audrey Hepburn, and my cousins female children are amazingly attractive. It seems that the Y chromosome saddled me with the face of a slapped kipper. Had I been born a girl I might have come out looking a little like Natalie Portman. I would definitely want that.

As far as being an average woman, so long as she has looked after her body about as well as I have then I'd probably be up for it. I've watched my weight, eaten a good diet, been kind to my skin and my scalp. Even if I still had the face of a fish, I'd be happier than if I was some kind of silicone boobed plastic doll.

[Rogina B]

I was out and thought about this thread tonight...PERSONNA!! We want the personna without the mediocre poop that comes with it..To be an average looking woman with a big personna would be the ultimate! Exactly like Marilyn Monroe...a big personna!

[LelaK]

I'd certainly prefer to be a female version of myself. That would be better than what I have now, as long as I continue to be fit as I am now. But, like Joanie, I'd really prefer to be a shape-shifter. I'd rather have complete freedom to design myself however I want whenever I want to. There are a lot of unattractive aspects of physical human bodies that I'd like to make totally attractive, I mean my own, not others'. I like for everyone to be free to express themselves as they like. I would not want to attract men, except as friends. I'd still want to be attractive to women, or at least to one woman. And I might like to have kids.

I believe such fantasies will become real possibilities within a few decades or at least centuries.

[kristinacd55]

I like who I am and don't want to "BE" her at all....men certainly don't trip over themselves when they see me lol. I'm mostly happy and content with the way I look in my female version. Another great post Reine....thanks!

[NoraTV]

I aim for about a 5 or 6, rather than a 10.

Seriously, I just am happy to be me.

[Lady Catherine]

I have always been happy being me. I wouldn't mind living as a female twin of myself for a day just to know what it's like, though. I also like the shape shifting idea. Sign me up for that.

[DebbieL]

Following this thread,
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?186359-Fantasy-question-your-dream-girl-would-you-choose-to-be-WITH-her-or-BE-her,
... I'd like to rephrase the question just to see if the answers are the same.

I really like what you have proposed in this thread, because it is a really good question!


How many of you would still want to BE her, if instead of being a "really attractive woman", you were simply a feminine version of yourselves which, if you fall within the average range in terms of looks, would be just an ordinary looking woman like most of us out there. You know, the ones who don't get whistled at, who don't have men tripping over themselves to open their door … the women who go to the grocery store and no one pays particular attention to them because they look just like everyone else.

The answer, for me, is that I would still say "Yes, I'd want to BE HER" even if she was a size 12, and was dressed rather plainly, because then I'd at least have the ability to CHOOSE when I wanted to look average and ordinary - to blend, and when I wanted to be really cute and sexy - like at a club or social event.

When transsexuals go through their Real Life Experience, one of the things they confront is the reality that in order to avoid being scrutinized, they have to "Blend", so that they will be noticed or observed for only a few seconds rather than for several minutes by each observer (especially men). Women know that a skirt will get them noticed for a longer period of time, which can be helpful in a business meeting, sales presentation, or charity fund-raiser, but can be a liability at a bus stop, walking down a crowded street, or in a shopping mall full of "mall rats".

The challenge that comes up is something like this. You are going to go Christmas shopping, you have decided that because of the cold temperature, you are going to wear pants and a sweater. You can wear women's slacks, women's sweater, and even a blouse or camisole under the sweater, but the question is whether you will still feel that you want to wear the bra and wig day, and put on make-up and keep it freshened up all day. The transsexual would say "Yes, absolutely" because being a woman is more important than the specific outfits. The cross-dresser might think "why bother" because their desire to present as a woman is because they want to be able to wear a particular style of clothing, and for many there are certain specific items that they consider very important.


If you substitute the mental image of a 10+ model with an image of the unassuming and average looking female your age who lives down your street, would you still want to be her?

For me personally, the answer would be yes. I would rather be one of the girls, and be able to enjoy the company of other women, especially women my own age or slightly younger, to be accepted, to be part of that group. Ideally, I would be younger - late teens or early twenties, so I could have the fun of giggling, doing silly things, making goofy faces, laughing, crying, watching romantic movies ..... all the things I was NOT ALLOWED TO DO ON PAIN OF TERRORISM AND PHYSICAL ABUSE when I actually WAS that age back in the 1960s and early 1970s.


Thanks for your responses! I really am wondering about this.

It really is a great question, and I am really enjoying reading some of the responses.

[ReineD]

Thanks for all your responses everyone!

I asked the same question to my SO. He said (I won't say "she" because this was a guy answer), that he would like to be WITH her (a 20 yr old) all night and have fantastic sex, and then wake up in the morning and BE her. :rolleyes:

I suggested that he remember his password, log in, and post that here.

... And then I could just publicly :slap: him. lol (for wanting a 20 yr old) :D





I know this is for CDs to respond...if I had to be either an unattractive female or an unattractive male...I'd probably go for being male. ...I feel really bad when I see that some girls basically have to apologize for being sexually unattractive.

Shannon, it's OK, GGs can post too. And I agree with what you say. There is more pressure on women to look good than there is on men. Blame that on the impossible beauty ideals repeatedly thrown at us by the media (beginning with our first Barbie doll :p).


I would love to be the female version of myself, is it cheating though if I think she would hot.

Yes, that's cheating! :) Would you like to be just a regular looking woman, like the 80-90% that are out there (across all ages, not just college girls), and not the 10-20% that catch your eye?

[noeleena]

Hi,

How do i answer this, sure not from a male perspective, i dont know how to. i cant see it with male eyes, or mind, so would i say i wont to be a female cant even do that, let alone say that,

To me its like asking do you wont , desire to be like live like dress like with all the trimings, & some one says im not a woman, i dont look like one so how do i respond,

I never... wonted ... to be a woman well female as it is, there is no fantisy here, cant even say i wonted to dress like the girls, ,

I have to be stark raveing mad a real nutter, proberly insane, & weird to even think , say, & then tell others, i am a female / woman.

my peers women friends & Jos, friends i know going back 55 years have seen right through me, all they see is a female /woman.

From this the ? for me would have to be ...get real here.,..., how i would like to see myself ( in the mirror ) proberly not as i do now,

As iv said im embarrised around those who can dress better yes i know all done out in makeup. Hair & looking so lovely, pretty, feminine, so i know what its like for some of us women , we did not & dont have those qullitys, in the facial features,

Oh well cant change it, is there a good point in this yes , just as well im a very strong woman & can handle my failings,

...noeleena...

[Joanne f]

To answer you question first, I would be happy to be an ordinary/average looking female version of myself and leave the good looks to the one's that like the attention that comes their way as I would just not want that .
I am wondering if this is another difference between cross dressers and transgender orientated people as the cross dresser wants to be as feminine as possible when they cross that dressing line but the TG is already that person so the need to be that extra special looking person is not quite so important , yes we all have wish's that we could change some part of our looks so I can understand why to some it is that important to become as attractive as possible as that is apart of their reason for cross dressing ( to be an attractive and desirable looking female) and they want that attention to know that they have achieved their goal whereas I assuming that most Tg are happy to just blend in without the the attention coming their way .
Sorry I was almost forgetting the one's that just like to wear female clothe's without attempting to look like an attractive female as they are literally just being their normal self so are the one's that really want to look like this very attractive sexy young thing a lot less than we are inclined to think of.

But then ReineD you do not need to imagine what it is like to be young and attractive :)

[Cheryl T]

I too would be happy as the true female version of myself. I've never considered myself to be someone who would garner the attention of others (perhaps a character flaw, but it is what it is), so this would not be a drastic change for me and I could happily go about my business without being a VS Angel or the like.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Shananigans,

I cant get my head around the , say a power came & said would you rather be a unatrative male than an unatractive woman ,

Theres two parts for me in this,

Im the unatrative woman, thats just the way it is for me, as to the male, regardless of his looks theres just no way for me to be male, its so ill be polite here its so not nice, this is not what i really wont to say ,arrrrrrr......sorry its just not me,
Im a woman this is who i am what i am. yes i know not complete yet still just a woman,
Being intersexed has played a very big part in my life , id hate to even think contemplate what i would be like with out this part of who i am.

If you were in front of me youd soon know how i feel about this my whole body just shakes thinking about it,i just react against this male detail i did not think it would happen it does & has,

How im wired, how i think act just being who i am.

The other side of myself has a part that is male, not as much as i first thought, as iv grown many changes have taken place, & Jos can tell you that, & friends that know me pretty well so not to be fooled by a part in a play as in acting, there is no acting for myself its all real or nothing, & i mean .... total nothing i would not be here, my life was spared 65 years ago, so you know i mean death ,

& i thought i knew a bit about males, maybe i tryed to, yet really i dont know , so when you said youd rather be that male, i just wont to hide, get away, like its a fire trying to get at me, different , or maybe im weird, after all.

...noeleena...

[ronda]

yes i would be her Hugs Ronda

[Angela Campbell]

an image of the unassuming and average looking female your age who lives down your street, would you still want to be her?

To me this would be like winning the lottery, superbowl and the world series all in one.

[Juanita O]

Well let me get into this conversation, YES i would love to be a female version of me. How many females are 6"2' and are 230lbs( line backer). I would to blend in more, I would settle for a 5-6, but in my case I stand out.

[Ressie]

Yes! Just make me into the female version of me and yes 20 years old would be the cherry on top.

[linda allen]

....... How many of you would still want to BE her, if instead of being a "really attractive woman", you were simply a feminine version of yourselves which, if you fall within the average range in terms of looks, would be just an ordinary looking woman like most of us out there. You know, the ones who don't get whistled at, who don't have men tripping over themselves to open their door … the women who go to the grocery store and no one pays particular attention to them because they look just like everyone else..

I think a lot of the difference between the "really attractive woman" and the "ordinary looking woman" is the effort the really attractive woman takes to be really attractive. I'm not talking about makeup or a hairdo, I'm talking about attitude, dieting, possibly plastic surgery, and seriously learning and practicing how to be that attractive woman 24/7.

True, some women would never pull it off but for the rest, if they are willing to put forth the effort, and if it's very important to them, they could do it.

I think for many women, other things in life are more important (family, education, career, etc.) and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Sara Jessica]

Interesting question. I didn't answer the other thread because in all honesty, I have never once looked at any female and said anything close to "oooh, I want to be with her". If I was attracted to her, I would want to get to know her and fall in love with her before any thought of that other thing.

But as to the question at hand...


...Get threw the door an then work on the rest I guess ?

Yep, that's pretty much where I'm coming from, all other things being equal in my life (as in this is such a hypothetical question that I don't want to imply that I would want to wish away what I have already). I'd take being an average woman in a heartbeat for two reasons. First and most importantly, it would come with all of the life experiences of growing up as a natal female. That is something that none of us in the community can ever achieve no matter how awesome the science & medicine becomes, short of starting the transition process pre-puberty which is not part of the equation for those in these pages.

The next reason kind of picks up on what Stacy says. One could choose to work on the rest...if she chooses to do so. Who knows, perhaps the life as an average woman would lead to being utterly content with looking "average" because of fulfillment all around her. Maybe she has a spouse who adores her no matter what. Maybe she is busy with the children and takes little time for herself because so much is devoted to the kids. Maybe she simply doesn't care about makeup and/or style and is perfectly happy in going about her business while wearing jeans, a top and her UGG boots. But at the end of the day, she has something that I cannot have...the life experience and scoreboard no matter what science might do for me otherwise. I'd take that notion of average any day of the week. And if she enjoys my affection for style, then all the better but that would be icing on the cake, not an ingredient in the cake itself.

[Erica Marie]

In male mode I am the unassuming type. I would be more than happy to be the average small town girl who is friends with most eveyone and no one looks at me as anything special. Just to be able to be myself and to be able to fit in is all I honestly ask.

[max]

I know this is for CDs to respond...but, as a GG, I'd have to say if some magical power came to me right now and told me I had to be either an unattractive female or an unattractive male...I'd probably go for being male. It seems like there's so much we have to apologize for already as females...and, I feel really bad when I see that some girls basically have to apologize for being sexually unattractive. It's pretty weird. But, I think it would be very hard to be an unattractive woman. Being an unattractive man isn't great either, but the worst looking men seem to have a weird sense of entitlement...so, maybe I'd have that attitude too. I guess with average looks, it doesn't quite matter. Average skates by pretty well...beautiful girls seem to get attention and so do unattractive women. "Average" seems to cause less of a splash either way. But, one person's "average" is another person's "ugly"...so, you can't win really. But, I'd probably jump bodies if I had to live as an unattractive woman. That really sucks to say...but, there you go.

Not sure what criteria you are using but if you actually think that mate availability is larger for an unattractive male than an unattractive female you've got your head rammed up your ass.

Check out this study: http://jonmillward.com/blog/attraction-dating/cupid-on-trial-a-4-month-online-dating-experiment/
http://jonmillward.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/the-final-results.jpg

You see the unattractive guy? 0 messages. The unattractive girl? 11.

If you want to see just the full extent of female privilege in the dating arena compare the numbers for the attractive females and attractive males, although the results got so disparate the attractive womens' inboxes were past capacity.

e.g. from the study:


• The women as a group received over 20 times more messages than the men.

• The two most attractive women received 83% of all messages.

• The two most attractive women probably would have received several thousand more if their inboxes hadn’t have reached maximum capacity.

• It took 2 months, 13 days for the most popular woman’s inbox to fill up. At the current rate it would take the most popular man 2.3 years to fill up his.

[LelaK]

Women know that a skirt will get them noticed for a longer period of time, which can be helpful in a business meeting, sales presentation, or charity fund-raiser, but can be a liability at a bus stop, walking down a crowded street, or in a shopping mall full of "mall rats".

This is something I forgot to mention last night. I would love to be able to be a female version of me, even if I looked about the same as now (average), but feminine. I wouldn't even mind being an AIS female, which is a default female with XY chromosomes, because they look practically totally female. I read that Kim Novak may be such a person.

The thing I mainly forgot to mention is that I'd want to look as feminine as possible, somewhat like my avatar, but more so. I wouldn't care if I were noticed by anyone else, just so I could see me that way and have that as my self-concept, instead of my current masculine self-concept that keeps interfering with my dream self. I'd love to wear short petticoats, lace cuffs, ribbons and bows, a hair band and a flower in my hair, fishnet stockings, puffy sleeves, etc. I'd like to use a minimum of makeup and don't care for earrings, metal or bead necklaces, metal bracelets etc. I would want to have on some lipstick and nail polish. I might wear shades (sunglasses). I suppose I'd have to wear slender heels too.

I love beauty and want everything to be beautiful, though not against anyone's will. So it confuses me a little as to why most women settle for relatively drab attire. CDs seem to dress much more femininely (or attractively?) than most women.

[CDDanielle]

Possibly. I'd probably give a different answer depending on my emotional state of mind.

[Abbygirl]

If you substitute the mental image of a 10+ model with an image of the unassuming and average looking female your age who lives down your street, would you still want to be her?
.

I sure would! As long as it could be temporary. I don't have to be a super-hot girl, I just want to be a girl, just for a little while! Ideally I could switch back and forth whenever I liked, but that's why I CD!

[Sometimes Steffi]

I originally said that I'd rather be *with* her than *be* her. but if I had to *be* her, I'd prefer to be a much more attractive version of myself, not necessarily a 10, but a 7 to 8, instead of a 5 to 6.

[CDDanielle]

I sure would! As long as it could be temporary. I don't have to be a super-hot girl, I just want to be a girl, just for a little while! Ideally I could switch back and forth whenever I liked, but that's why I CD!

That's what I should have said really, put exactly right. :)

[Beverley Sims]

I would like to be me at twenty.
I was at least an eight then and now I may be five or six.
I always wonder what life would have been like if I had transitioned.

[docrobbysherry]

Reine, I've spent 60 years being an unattractive/ordinary looking male. I'll be DAMMED if I'll settle for being an ordinary looking female now! If I can't look like Sherry, u, or Shana, I'll happily continue on as Robert!

I know this is for CDs to respond...but, as a GG, I'd have to say if some magical power came to me right now and told me I had to be either an unattractive female or an unattractive male...I'd probably go for being male. It seems like there's so much we have to apologize for already as females...and, I feel really bad when I see that some girls basically have to apologize for being sexually unattractive. It's pretty weird. But, I think it would be very hard to be an unattractive woman. Being an unattractive man isn't great either, but the worst looking men seem to have a weird sense of entitlement...so, maybe I'd have that attitude too. I guess with average looks, it doesn't quite matter. Average skates by pretty well...beautiful girls seem to get attention and so do unattractive women. "Average" seems to cause less of a splash either way. But, one person's "average" is another person's "ugly"...so, you can't win really. But, I'd probably jump bodies if I had to live as an unattractive woman. That really sucks to say...but, there you go.
In my long life, I've experienced exactly what u r saying, Shana. And, in the many years before I began dressing, I NAIVELY wondered why ANYONE would present as a unattractive female when they could be an ordinary looking man?


Not sure what criteria you are using but if you actually think that mate availability is larger for an unattractive male than an unattractive female you've got your head rammed up your ass.

Check out this study: http://jonmillward.com/blog/attraction-dating/cupid-on-trial-a-4-month-online-dating-experiment/
http://jonmillward.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/the-final-results.jpg

You see the unattractive guy? 0 messages. The unattractive girl? 11.

If you want to see just the full extent of female privilege in the dating arena compare the numbers for the attractive females and attractive males, although the results got so disparate the attractive womens' inboxes were past capacity.

e.g. from the study:
If real life were simply a matter of pictures, I'd agree with u. My on line dating isn't going well because attractive women won't even talk with a guy that looks like me.
Fortunately, as Shana wrote, real life works differently. And, I've had more than my share of attractive women, despite my looks. Because even homely men that r expressive, intelligent, and successful r attractive to some pretty women once they get to know u!
Which is why I was with a Centerfold and married a Vegas show girl.

Each to his/her own. But, I'll take being a homely guy over being an unattractive woman any day of the week!

[max]

If real life were simply a matter of pictures, I'd agree with u. My on line dating isn't going well because attractive women won't even talk with a guy that looks like me.
Fortunately, as Shana wrote, real life works differently. And, I've had more than my share of attractive women, despite my looks. Because even homely men that r expressive, intelligent, and successful r attractive to some pretty women once they get to know u!
Which is why I was with a Centerfold and married a Vegas show girl.

Each to his/her own. But, I'll take being a homely guy over being an unattractive woman any day of the week!

For every "homely" guy like you there are 100 with a far different experience.

[Lorileah]

My on line dating isn't going well because attractive women won't even talk with a guy that looks like me. Mine too but I decided to use Lori's pictures. Amazing how many replies I get that say "I want a real man". They don't know fro mt he photo how "real" I am

I've had more than my share of attractive women, despite my looks. Because even homely men that r expressive, intelligent, and successful r attractive to some pretty women once they get to know u!
Which is why I was with a Centerfold and married a Vegas show girl.
Me too. I have been very lucky in that manner. And I married a Playboy Bunny. The other two women in my life very very attractive also...Don't know why they wanted ME

For every "homely" guy like you there are 100 with a far different experience.
Hmm...maybe but I don't think so. Personally I think it is more the defeatist attitude a guy presents. I have seen some "butt ugly" men charm some very pretty women. Maybe 1:1 but not 1:100

[MarinaKirax]

Nope. I'm captured by the idea of being a woman, or the visual fantasy right in front of my eyes when I dress, or the real life fantasy when I can pass in crowded places. But I have no desire to grow old as a woman, no desire to have periods, breast exams, conniptions over an extra 10 pounds, all the baggage that comes with really being female. I'm firm on this one, ladies -- I like to switch it on, and switch it off. MK

[Foxglove]

Hi, Reine! I didn't reply to the other thread because the question was meaningless to me, and I'm not at all sure about this, but I think yours is, too.

All my life I've wanted to be someone else and recently I discovered that I am and always have been. It's been an amazing discovery, and at this point I'm not sure what to do with it.

Would I want to be a female version of myself? That's just it: I am. So I'm not sure I want to do any fantasizing right now: I'm more than a bit puzzled as to what to do with reality. But reality is good right now, and I want to see what I can do with it. I'm quite sure it'll never be as good as I'd like it to be, but it's much better than what I used to be working with.

I'm happy with what I look like. I'm more concerned with using what I have to see what I can make of my life.

So, sorry, I'm not really sure how to answer your question. Can I think about it and get back to you?

Annabelle

[Dawn cd]

I would rather be a woman than be with a woman--and I don't have to be a 10+ woman, but just an ordinary attractive woman. It is understood, of course, that I would still be "me."

[MsJanessa]

There are several GGs either at work or who live down the street that I would love to look like

[NathalieX66]

Without dwelling on a few small issues with my physical appearance, for the most part I like me as I am. I'm certainly not perfect by any measure, but for the last two years, I have been pushing for a more female appearance, and still working at it.

I don't really need to, or want to look like a Victoria's Secret model, that's too difficult a goal, and OI prefer to occupy my time and energies with other things in life.

But going out to mainstream places in public, and not being read is just absolutely totally awesome, and I've become hooked. And if I'm read, well that's one for the team.

[Frédérique]

How many of you would still want to BE her, if instead of being a "really attractive woman", you were simply a feminine version of yourselves which, if you fall within the average range in terms of looks, would be just an ordinary looking woman like most of us out there. You know, the ones who don't get whistled at, who don't have men tripping over themselves to open their door … the women who go to the grocery store and no one pays particular attention to them because they look just like everyone else. If you substitute the mental image of a 10+ model with an image of the unassuming and average looking female your age who lives down your street, would you still want to be her?

Inadvertently, you’ve hit upon the very thing that causes so much consternation from GG’s – this inability to appreciate male fantasy, or the idea of attraction, based on primal urges all males are burdened with. A woman has to do all sorts of things to get the male, if she is heterosexual, that is, and this includes looking as attractive as possible – this “message” comes through loud and clear in the media at all times, no doubt causing an ongoing (and widening) gender-rift. It even pops up here, in a section devoted to MtF crossdressing – women are obviously trying to feel good about themselves, and here’s a bunch of males who are crossing their allotted gender boundaries, actively becoming women through dress and female comportment. Oh, it must confuse and anger the real girls no end, just one more hideous insult added to a wheelbarrow load of injuries. “WE aren’t attractive enough,” the female chorus intones, so the boys are wearing the dresses (and the panties and the bras) in an effort to cut out the middleman. In short, REAL women have somehow failed, so males take up the challenge – if they succeed, as many do, the women groan their displeasure (see the quoted text above) whenever and wherever possible…

It’s very unfair to be so black-and-white about this issue, just like it is patently ridiculous to assume that 10+ models are some kind of lofty goal for the MtF crossdresser – inspiration, perhaps, in some cases, maybe a starting point, or a tacit acknowledgement, or a whisper of “yes” in other cases, but the reality is infinitely more subtle. If the male (a "normal" CD) is to dress as a female he has to start somewhere, with found materials, and gradually build his presentation as a form of femme assemblage. He becomes the combination of many female influences, and his final form is a living, breathing tribute to all females who have made an impression on him. I can honestly say that I dress as a form of tribute to women, as well as a tribute to a submerged ME that society cannot appreciate – I do not do it to make women feel uneasy, or feel less attractive, in any way. This may explain why I do not show myself to any great degree – I know that there are many women out there just like you, Reine, and they really “Don’t need THIS.” I can understand that…

You may be interested to know that, in order to look as passable as possible, I must eschew any thoughts about looking like a supermodel. That goes without saying, since that level of CD/TG is impossible to achieve, under the circumstances. I would much rather look like a run-of-the-mill normal female, not very attractive, burdened by inherent male attitudes and sensibilities, a victim of surrender in terms of gender. The thing is, I would rather be THERE, in that form, subjugated by my own shy personality, as well as the clothes I choose to wear, and not be the pillar of strength that all women, as well as society, insists I MUST be. It’s unfortunate that women feel so threatened, or disheartened, by MtF crossdressing, but that viewpoint seeps into these posts on occasion. It would be useful to explore this avenue via discussion, but I would suggest that GG’s drop this insistence on all males being one way or the other, according to THEIR idea of what male behavior is or should be. It ain’t necessarily so, believe me. Speaking (writing) as a male, I can tell you that I do not dress to supplant any willful attractiveness that females need to employ…

I’m attracted to real women, which is why I crossdress, but I’m only trying to be attractive to myself. You have nothing to worry about, i.e. no competition for males – I already HAVE one of those, and I’m trying to keep him in the closet…
:straightface:

[Candice Mae]

....................................

[ReineD]

In short, REAL women have somehow failed, so males take up the challenge – if they succeed, as many do, the women groan their displeasure (see the quoted text above) whenever and wherever possible…[/COLOR]



It’s unfortunate that women feel so threatened, or disheartened, by MtF crossdressing, but that viewpoint seeps into these posts on occasion. It would be useful to explore this avenue via discussion, but I would suggest that GG’s drop this insistence on all males being one way or the other, according to THEIR idea of what male behavior is or should be. It ain’t necessarily so, believe me. Speaking (writing) as a male, I can tell you that I do not dress to supplant any willful attractiveness that females need to employ…[/COLOR]


Freddy, you cannot possibly have misinterpreted my question any more than you have above. I cannot emphasize enough that GGs do not feel threatened by CDing males in the way that you describe. We do not feel "less than", we do not feel usurped, our noses are not put out of joint, we do not feel as if you are trespassing on our turf, we do not feel as if you dress because we are not good enough. Granted, out of sheer ignorance of anything trans in the beginning and believing it to be a fetish, the first questions that come to a new GG's mind are whether the husband dresses this way to attract men, and if he feels a greater sexual attraction to his feminine self than he does to his wife. The wife wants to know if she has been replaced in her husband's affection, since often the dressing for him is just so darn euphoric. :p

The feelings that you sometimes read a newer GG express are rather explained this way (I went through it myself), which is a different topic than I had intended in this thread:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?183668-jealous&p=3005867&viewfull=1#post3005867




You may be interested to know that, in order to look as passable as possible, I must eschew any thoughts about looking like a supermodel. That goes without saying, since that level of CD/TG is impossible to achieve, under the circumstances. I would much rather look like a run-of-the-mill normal female, not very attractive, burdened by inherent male attitudes and sensibilities, a victim of surrender in terms of gender. The thing is, I would rather be THERE, in that form, subjugated by my own shy personality, as well as the clothes I choose to wear, and not be the pillar of strength that all women, as well as society, insists I MUST be. [/COLOR]

THIS answers my question. I wanted to know how many CDers would want to be women only if, in the words of one of our members, he (or she), could be "hot" and if this were not possible, then would there be the same interest in CDing. In other words, would it be as "exciting" for the CDer to be just a regular garden-variety girl as it would be to be sexy and beautiful?

[AnneB1nderful]

I would still want to be a woman even if it were for a brief moment. Just to experience such a thing is what I've been dreaming of since I was a child.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I most definitely would like to look like a 10. I know from experience that just plain dressing makes me look hideous and I'm feeling that any and all amounts of surgery will make me look like a freak. But if this scenario were that my Y chromosome would somehow switch to and X chromosome I think that would be a good natural foundation to build upon. Many so-called 10 women really aren't tens sans the makeup artists the hairdressers and fashion consultants. A lot of average looking women can reach those high numbers if they tried and with much more ease than the average male cross-dresser.

[giuseppina]

I've seen enough of life that looks don't matter much to me. It's the intellect and personality that matter, IMHO.

I'd rather be a plain Jane than a lady always fending off unwanted suitors. It would get tiresome after a while.

That being said, I would want a return ticket. I like my male side.

[Anne2345]

If you substitute the mental image of a 10+ model with an image of the unassuming and average looking female your age who lives down your street, would you still want to be her?

You know my answer, Reine . . . .

[docrobbysherry]

Mine too but I decided to use Lori's pictures. Amazing how many replies I get that say "I want a real man". They don't know fro mt he photo how "real" I am

I should find out what dating site u use, Lori. The ones I use don't allow men to submit female photos!

Hmm...maybe but I don't think so. Personally I think it is more the defeatist attitude a guy presents. I have seen some "butt ugly" men charm some very pretty women. Maybe 1:1 but not 1:100

I know LOTS of unattractive men who dated and married very attractive women, Max. However, none of them were "losers". Men with no confidence, character, or accomplishments MAY be able to date pretty girls if they're attractive enuff. But, that would be the not so smart ones. And, they won't keep them anyway!

[Kelly DeWinter]

Reine,

My answer would be 'yes', then knowing my luck I would have the same issue as a F to M transgendered person. WHEN DOES THE IRONY END !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol.:D

[Maria in heels]

Wow...this is a tough question. hmmmmm

If I had a chance, I would love to be the feminine version of myself ... I wouldn't have to be a knock out or a 10, I am comfortable with who I am, but would love to be able to show my feminine side more often, and not hold in some of the feelings that I have....

so, yes, I would want to BE her....

[kathtx]

I know LOTS of unattractive men who dated and married very attractive women, Max. However, none of them were "losers". Men with no confidence, character, or accomplishments MAY be able to date pretty girls if they're attractive enuff. But, that would be the not so smart ones. And, they won't keep them anyway!

Back in college there were two guys I hung out with all the time: Al and John. John was sort of the classic all-American good looking guy. Al and I were more the nerdy oddball types, not ugly, but not strikingly handsome either (think goofy, say, Billy Crystal for Al and Michael Palin for me). Conventional wisdom would be that John would have his pick of the ladies while Al and I had a harder time finding dates, right? Conventional wisdom would be wrong. Al had women falling at his feet, and probably never once went out with anyone less than a 9 on the looks scale. I never had Al's charm by any stretch, but still did OK. Al and I both eventually ended up marrying women who were "out of our league" in looks (and have stayed married to them). It was handsome John who could rarely get a first date, and who through four years of college never, ever got a second date.

Personality goes a long way. John wasn't an unpleasant guy, and he wasn't dumb by any stretch of the imagination. But he was pretty much humorless, lacked a sense of adventure, and never really got his head around the idea that women could be friends and colleagues as well as potential mates. By contrast, Al was not only a nice guy, funny, and exceptionally smart, but he was unafraid to go out on a limb and do interesting things: even as a starving undergrad, he'd run off to tour Europe for a summer staying in youth hostels, stuff like that. Most importantly, both Al and I had plenty of female friends. Guys dread being put in "friend zone" by women, but it's great if you think about it: you get used to *talking* with women, a much more useful life skill than being a slick pickup artist. Sometimes those friendships will blossom into romance, but if not, they'll invite you to events where you can meet other women.

So Sherry is right on target: if you're by looks a frog rather than a prince, don't despair. Live an interesting life, know how to talk to women as people rather than as prizes to be won, and women will find you interesting.

[Shananigans]

It even pops up here, in a section devoted to MtF crossdressing – women are obviously trying to feel good about themselves, and here’s a bunch of males who are crossing their allotted gender boundaries, actively becoming women through dress and female comportment. Oh, it must confuse and anger the real girls no end, just one more hideous insult added to a wheelbarrow load of injuries. “WE aren’t attractive enough,” the female chorus intones, so the boys are wearing the dresses (and the panties and the bras) in an effort to cut out the middleman. In short, REAL women have somehow failed, so males take up the challenge – if they succeed, as many do, the women groan their displeasure (see the quoted text above) whenever and wherever possible…

Hmmm...to be quoting the entire female gender/half of the world'a population, it appears as though you might need to step back one moment and reevaluate the situation further. Never in my mind have I even remotely thought what you have described. Never in my right mind have I thought my attraction has failed in sucha way that it makes my SO CD...or anyone CD. To be honest, the only times I really get irritated on this forum is when women are broken down into units/pieces/objects...it's pretty much an every day thing that you can't really vent too much about (because, you'd be venting all day)...so, my tolerance level for it is much lower here than when I am out and about. Being female is this weird thing...we're all placed within this group of people before we even have self-awareness...the one thing that binds us is that we've grown up together with this title full of characteristics that were determined for us before we even had our own unique thoughts. I'm female because we were more or less bonded at the moment of conception...who we would grow up to be/our personality was being determined long before we were even born. So, I relate to a group of people that have experienced that same thing. I get really irritated at the common view of being "female" has something to do with being a "thing." Women are often broken down into parts and pieces...like cars...and, we are grouped based on these characteristics. And, it's all taken a step further when these bits and pieces are used to define "female." I get irritated sometimes when someone calls themselves a female...but, only when dressed a certain way or having boobs...it is like painting a sign that says "women are broken into different things...I put these things on and I can be a woman until I decide to take them off." And, then, I get really irritated when people that have broken me down into things tell me that I'm mad because my womanhood is somehow being challenged. As if...I don't think so. My SO loves to feel sexy...but, never has my SO indicated that taking on or off clothes grants him the entire female experience...and, he knows that the critical value is high if he starts quoting how billions of people think. I don't have a hive mind :( ...Women really are individual people with unique thoughts...it looks like we can be undone and taken apart like a car...it looks like other people could pick up those parts and become female. But, women don't look at it like that because we don't see femininity as inherent on bits and pieces or clothes...so, we aren't threatened in that way. What makes a woman not like crossdressing? First, you must not assume that all women have a problem with it...and, next, if a woman did, you must ask her what she finds upsetting (that whole individual personality thing).

So, if you Really want to know what goes on in my head when I have a problem with crossdressing, it would be something along the lines of, "Why yes, do tell me what half of the world's population thinks. Now, what were you saying about how putting on pantyhose makes you feel like such a real woman? If I appear smug, it's only because I'd like you to elaborate further on how crossdressing has replaced the female gender...do go on about how replacing the female gender only involved males putting on women's clothes when they weren't supposed to be wearing them." This attitude is not applicable for some CDs...many CDs don't make those notions, and I find myself thoroughly supporting their dressing decision.

[Foxglove]

But, I think it would be very hard to be an unattractive woman. Being an unattractive man isn't great either, but the worst looking men seem to have a weird sense of entitlement... But, I'd probably jump bodies if I had to live as an unattractive woman. That really sucks to say...but, there you go.

Hi, Shan! I wanted to ask you something, and I swear to God I'm not getting confrontational here. I'm asking purely out of curiosity.


I get really irritated at the common view of being "female" has something to do with being a "thing." Women are often broken down into parts and pieces...like cars...and, we are grouped based on these characteristics. And, it's all taken a step further when these bits and pieces are used to define "female."

I can appreciate what you're saying here, along with everything else you're saying in this post. There's no doubt that women are judged on their physique--but so are guys.

Not necessarily so much on how good-looking they are. Even a really ugly guy can do quite nicely for himself--especially if he has lots of money, like a superstar athlete. But there are other ways of being judged on your physique.

So my question is, would you rather be an unattractive woman or a small guy? And I don't mean small--I mean small, like me, 5' 3". Because I can tell you, at that size, you don't even rate as a guy.

A friend of mine once told me that girls liked me because I was "cute like a puppy". And he had it spot on. Yeah, they liked me--as long as I agreed to be their puppy, as long as I didn't ask them to take me seriously. It happened more than once, I'd meet a girl I liked, I'd ask her out, she'd more or less roll her eyes and say nothing. I didn't even rate a "no". When she wanted a date, she'd put me back in my basket and go out to look for a real man.

I once saw a letter to the editor written by a guy who, as I recall, was 5' 7". He said he wouldn't give up an inch for a higher IQ. I was thinking about replying and saying, "Don't worry about it, man. To get up to a normal IQ, you'd need to give up so many inches you'd be invisible." But that's how it is: when you're a guy, having size is more important than having a good mind.

You can't imagine what it means to me to be a full-time "girl" now: I exist. I'm on the radar. I don't have to be ashamed. It's been quite a revelation.

So what do you think: unattractive woman or small guy?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Foxglove]

So, If you're 5'3" what is your women's shoe size in US?

In the US, I don't know. Over here I take a 6. Another nice thing about being a girl: they make shoes to fit me.

[wanagione]

I would just like to be the person I am. I'm not a ten but I can look very nice. I don't need people falling all over me. I would just love to be an average woman all the time.

[Ressie]

Many average women are beautiful to me. Some are more attractive than the so called supermodels and movie stars. Being a little overweight for one thing isn't necessarily a bad thing. Of course every individual man has a somewhat different ideal of the perfect woman. Having real breasts that sag would be preferred to rock hard implants IMO.

[Sophie_C]

Honestly, being a 10+ (I hate using numbers to categorize appearance) sounds like a huge pain to me. If I were ever to transition, being just "normal" would make me elated and far more than enough.

[Lorileah]

I have two perspectives here. Somewhere about the age of 5-6 I lost confidence (of course as a male). And I didn't see myself as worthy of attracting anyone. Now, I am not Shrek. But I was going bald at 18, I was skinny and I wore glasses. Not what I thought was the ideal for the women I wanted to date. So I have been the "ugly" male. And yet in spite of "me" I was lucky that some women actually saw me as attractive. I didn't believe them ( I still don't I see flaws).

Now fast forward to when I really started dressing. When I really put effort into it. Even I could see the attractive "female" in me. Confidence boost. But honestly, I am still a dude, I have the attributes of a dude and I still see flaws, just less of them. But now I was getting positive attention, even as a manly "female". Confidence soared. Especially and even still when I am dressed. I have the world on a string. And now, I can see the attractive male part of me. It isn't the physical is what I am saying, it is the attitude and how you present, which to paraphrase Yogi Berra
"(crossdressing) is 90% mental, the other 50% is physical". Most here on this thread are focusing on the 50%.

But I have to agree with Shanan, "you all don't know the half of it". Works both ways by the way. Expectations are placed on both sides of the coin. I love how the TG's here place the negatives on the "physical" parts, the hormones, the getting older and they start placing caveats then. Hell, if i dreamed of being a race car driver, I would not want to be the one who is in last all the time. Dream big right? Yeah I would want the best of what is offered. But step into those shoes. I can tell you that the thrill of being "whatever" becomes rote rather fast no matter what. Shanan pointed out one huge thing. NO matter what your look like as a male, you have entitlements. You get free passes that the women don't get. You get the better pay, you get the expectation that whoever is waiting for you at home is waiting to just please YOU (try and turn that around on your SO sometime, being the support and cheerleader is not easy). You get he expectation that you can go and do whatever you want. Few restrictions and most of those are hurdles YOU place on yourself. Want to see this entitlement at its worst? Look at country clubs. Men in those situations EXPECT to be worshiped and treated like royalty. They don't get there by looks, they usually get there by confidence and risk taking.

Oh yes I love the perks I am getting now when I present female. But I also know that I can at anytime revert to being the one who has ALL the benefits. Fun to say you would take the homely female, but could you REALLY handle it?

[Fran Moore]

I have two perspectives here. Somewhere about the age of 5-6 I lost confidence (of course as a male). And I didn't see myself as worthy of attracting anyone. Now, I am not Shrek. But I was going bald at 18, I was skinny and I wore glasses. Not what I thought was the ideal for the women I wanted to date. So I have been the "ugly" male. And yet in spite of "me" I was lucky that some women actually saw me as attractive. I didn't believe them ( I still don't I see flaws).

Now fast forward to when I really started dressing. When I really put effort into it. Even I could see the attractive "female" in me. Confidence boost. But honestly, I am still a dude, I have the attributes of a dude and I still see flaws, just less of them. But now I was getting positive attention, even as a manly "female". Confidence soared. Especially and even still when I am dressed. I have the world on a string. And now, I can see the attractive male part of me. It isn't the physical is what I am saying, it is the attitude and how you present, which to paraphrase Yogi Berra . Most here on this thread are focusing on the 50%.

But I have to agree with Shanan, "you all don't know the half of it". Works both ways by the way. Expectations are placed on both sides of the coin. I love how the TG's here place the negatives on the "physical" parts, the hormones, the getting older and they start placing caveats then. Hell, if i dreamed of being a race car driver, I would not want to be the one who is in last all the time. Dream big right? Yeah I would want the best of what is offered. But step into those shoes. I can tell you that the thrill of being "whatever" becomes rote rather fast no matter what. Shanan pointed out one huge thing. NO matter what your look like as a male, you have entitlements. You get free passes that the women don't get. You get the better pay, you get the expectation that whoever is waiting for you at home is waiting to just please YOU (try and turn that around on your SO sometime, being the support and cheerleader is not easy). You get he expectation that you can go and do whatever you want. Few restrictions and most of those are hurdles YOU place on yourself. Want to see this entitlement at its worst? Look at country clubs. Men in those situations EXPECT to be worshiped and treated like royalty. They don't get there by looks, they usually get there by confidence and risk taking.

Oh yes I love the perks I am getting now when I present female. But I also know that I can at anytime revert to being the one who has ALL the benefits. Fun to say you would take the homely female, but could you REALLY handle it?



I understand what you are saying Lori, and agree in part, but how did Reine's question turn from "ordinary, or average female" to "homely female"?

[PretzelGirl]

Like others, I will set aside the issues of how that would affect having my current family.

I don't see the physical as pretty. I have seen many women who had extraordinary natural beauty on the outside and I wouldn't be them in a million years. I have seen women who many would say they had average natural looks, but they were spectacular women. The outside of the body is just a palette. The beauty comes from who they are, how they interact, and yes presentation as in taking care of yourself, smiling, being happy, etc.

So I would be happy with whatever my body would have been like with just that small chromosome change. In life it isn't always about what you are given, but what you do with it that creates happiness.

[Brittany CD]

Average range? I'm fine with that. A part of me prefers that

[ElleduSud]

I understand what you are saying Lori, and agree in part, but how did Reine's question turn from "ordinary, or average female" to "homely female"?

Define Average:

According to US Bureau of Statistics, National Center for Health Statistics, US Census Bureau, and US Standard Sizing, using data gathered during the years 2008 - 2011, the average American woman is:

45 years old
5'4" tall
Weighs 167 pounds
Is obese
Body measurements are 41-36-44
Wears a misses size 20 in clothing
Has 37% body fat
Excess body fat is carried primarily in the abdomen
Earns $37,000 per year

This is "Average". Is this who you want to be?

Seriously, I am very interested in understanding this.

As a genetic, birth female, I believe the majority of posts in this forum are fantasy, compulsion and delusion. I have an impossible time reconciling what I read and the pictures posted in other areas to the life that I live as a woman.

So, again, do you really want to live your life as an average woman?

[AnneB1nderful]

Define Average:

According to US Bureau of Statistics, National Center for Health Statistics, US Census Bureau, and US Standard Sizing, using data gathered during the years 2008 - 2011, the average American woman is:

45 years old
5'4" tall
Weighs 167 pounds
Is obese
Body measurements are 41-36-44
Wears a misses size 20 in clothing
Has 37% body fat
Excess body fat is carried primarily in the abdomen
Earns $37,000 per year

This is "Average". Is this who you want to be?

Seriously, I am very interested in understanding this.

As a genetic, birth female, I believe the majority of posts in this forum are fantasy, compulsion and delusion. I have an impossible time reconciling what I read and the pictures posted in other areas to the life that I live as a woman.

So, again, do you really want to live your life as an average woman?

If I were to suddenly become "statistically average" woman, I would do everything I could to change and become above average. Age is irrelevant. I'm 47 and once I decided to fully embrace my femininity, I've lost over 25 lbs in less than 2 months. And other features seem to have suddenly become more feminine. Perhaps they were always there and I didn't want to see them. So, if I became a GG no matter how average, I would be even more determined to become beautiful. I could only imagine what I could do.

Now if I was an average GG for just a moment, I would try to relish that moment.

[Angela Campbell]

I would like to know what all these "entitlements" are that men automatically have. I never got any kind of better treatment because I was a man. I do not make more money than women in my company that have the same skill level as I do...in fact I make less than some. I just need to know what these entitlements that I am endowed with are.

[Fran Moore]

Define Average:

According to US Bureau of Statistics, National Center for Health Statistics, US Census Bureau, and US Standard Sizing, using data gathered during the years 2008 - 2011, the average American woman is:

45 years old
5'4" tall
Weighs 167 pounds
Is obese
Body measurements are 41-36-44
Wears a misses size 20 in clothing
Has 37% body fat
Excess body fat is carried primarily in the abdomen
Earns $37,000 per year

This is "Average". Is this who you want to be?

Seriously, I am very interested in understanding this.

As a genetic, birth female, I believe the majority of posts in this forum are fantasy, compulsion and delusion. I have an impossible time reconciling what I read and the pictures posted in other areas to the life that I live as a woman.

So, again, do you really want to live your life as an average woman?


Perhaps you should go back to the original question that Reine asked, which pointed towards a "female" version of yourself, or "unassuming, average female".
I don't see that as "homely", do you? In that case I'm not sure that your opinion of the majority of the posts in this forum, being "fantasy, compulsion, and delusion" would necessarily apply. Even in the case of the "average" female as you have described, in my opinion, would not automatically be labeled as homely, as I know many women who might be overweight, that I would not consider to be "homely". Also, she made no mention of salary differences, etc. and for what it's worth my wife earns considerably more than I do.

If the question was to be an "average" female as you have described in your list, than the response may have been different.

[Rianna Humble]

The vast majority of men are listened to on almost any topic just because they are men. The vast majority of women have their insights dismissed just because they are women.

Men get to butt in and talk over someone, but if a woman tries to interject very often she is characterised as "domineering" and "shrill".

With very few exceptions even if a woman is the best man for the job, she still has to demonstrate why it should not go to a less well qualified member of the other sex. If by any remote chance she actually gets the job on merit, she then has to outperform men at the same level or she is regarded as not pulling her weight.

Although these are a very few generalisations, they are taken from concrete examples against which I campaigned whilst pretending to be a man.

I have a very concrete example in my own life. Before my transition, I used to represent the people of my area as a councillor. I still get positive comments from the public about the way that I served them and people asking me to return as their councillor. Despite this, I have been advised against standing for election next time as my Party does not want to risk "losing" the seat (which they actually did after I stood down).

[ReineD]

Popping in to say that speaking strictly of appearance, it never occurred to me to define "average", and thanks for bringing it up Elle. I have to say that the demographic average you presented is not what I thought it was, even though it makes sense when I compare it to the women that I see around me. But, the variance from the mean when it comes to imagining oneself as a woman will depend entirely on any member's own physiology.

I do think the only way a CDer can approach his/her own mental image of a personally realistic "average" is to see herself in the same light as others in the mainstream see her, and NOT how she sees herself in the mirror compared to his male appearance. This is important, since I think there is a difference between the two for many people. To illustrate, it is the difference that I've read about frequently here, when members say that they are disappointed in their pictures because they don't look the way the members feel when they see themselves in the mirror. And so these members need to take dozens of pictures before they will find one they are satisfied with. I believe the average, untouched photograph of the self is a more useful, realistic image to project while imagining oneself as a woman, rather than an ideal image of femininity. I wanted to know if adjusting this mental image would make a difference.

In case some members are considering transition and they take it a step further and believe that HRT and FFS would transform them into the ideal, the reality is that HRT and FFS (unless it is extensive FFS) will feminize the self sufficiently to pass after some years of appearing as a transitioning male, but will not transform anyone into the ideal representation of womanhood referred to in my thread starter. There are informative threads in the TS section about this.

I want to add that a feminization of the male self is far from ugly. Most people do fall within the normal range of "looks". There are very few people out there in my opinion who are ugly (http://alpy.typepad.com/blog/2012/02/funny-ugly-people-pictures.html), just as there are very few people who reach the highest echelon of feminine beauty (http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk/galleries/TMG9333597/Top-10-highest-paid-models-of-2012.html).

[jillleanne]

THIS answers my question. I wanted to know how many CDers would want to be women only if, in the words of one of our members, he (or she), could be "hot" and if this were not possible, then would there be the same interest in CDing. In other words, would it be as "exciting" for the CDer to be just a regular garden-variety girl as it would be to be sexy and beautiful?[/QUOTE]

So let's try this again shall we? I don't have any "interest in cd'ing" per say. Being tg is an integral part of my existence period and expressing my gender self in either gender comes as natural as getting out of bed. Having said that, when I do express my feminine side, I try to achieve the most realistic feminine image possible. Do I present as garden variety or mode elle? I suppose that depends on who is doing the judging but internally, I feel 100% feminine and sexy and feel inside I look as good as that lady down the street, and probably am dressed as good or better as her anyway. Your question can be interpreted as a fetish relationship between beauty and being tg. I do not believe anyone tg would be less tg if they could only look ordinary according to whomever defines that beauty. As you well know, being tg is not simply a fetish for masterbation purposes although for many, that is an intregal part of it all.

[docrobbysherry]

This is why I prefer to use the word, "attractive" in such conversations. It's different for everyone, but everyone knows what's attractive to them. U look in the mirror and u r or u aren't. U see a woman pass by and u find her, attractive, or not. We don't need to use words like, average, ordinary, ugly, homely, fat, etc. Or terms like, passing, blending, confident, etc., either. Attractive or not attractive really covers it all.


THIS answers my question. I wanted to know how many CDers would want to be women only if, in the words of one of our members, he (or she), could be "hot" and if this were not possible, then would there be the same interest in CDing. In other words, would it be as "exciting" for the CDer to be just a regular garden-variety girl as it would be to be sexy and beautiful?

[So let's try this again shall we? I don't have any "interest in cd'ing" per say. Being tg is an integral part of my existence period and expressing my gender self in either gender comes as natural as getting out of bed. Having said that, when I do express my feminine side, I try to achieve the most realistic feminine image possible. Do I present as garden variety or mode elle? I suppose that depends on who is doing the judging but internally, I feel 100% feminine and sexy and feel inside I look as good as that lady down the street, and probably am dressed as good or better as her anyway. Your question can be interpreted as a fetish relationship between beauty and being tg. I do not believe anyone tg would be less tg if they could only look ordinary according to whomever defines that beauty. As you well know, being tg is not simply a fetish for masterbation purposes although for many, that is an intregal part of it all.[/QUOTE]


Maybe u were referring to me, Jill? If not, your post applies to me. If I'm not attractive to me, I don't enjoy dressing. To the point where, as u say, I often don't think of myself as TG. Because it's so much about appearance for me! However, all CDs r classified as TG according to the "experts" that don't care WHY anyone dresses.

I'm guessing that maybe u r a TS? As u express no interest in CDing. You're simply expressing yourself. And, u and I can no more understand where the other is coming from than an eagle and a pilot. Altho, both of us fly!

[ReineD]

Purple, it was not my intention to imply that transitioning is a negative thing. We have many members for whom transition is indicated, who frankly would be miserable without it, and who do quite well in terms of looking youthful or their age. But, they will tell you that the surgeries and HRT do not magically turn anyone into someone they are not, and if someone transitions after young adulthood, there is a period of years where they are still perceived as transitioning males, however, the importance is the congruence they've achieved between their bodies and their brain gender more than achieving an idealistic image of femininity. THAT was my point. I'm sorry about your friend's unfortunate outcome.


I suppose that depends on who is doing the judging but internally, I feel 100% feminine and sexy and feel inside I look as good as that lady down the street, and probably am dressed as good or better as her anyway. Your question can be interpreted as a fetish relationship between beauty and being tg. I do not believe anyone tg would be less tg if they could only look ordinary according to whomever defines that beauty.

Yes, I did want to know if there was a difference between the fantasy and the reality. And I know that my question will not fit everyone in this forum. This is why I asked it in the CDing section. :)

[5150 Girl]

I don't have to be a so called 10... but it would be nice to be a 7 or better. Either way it would make me happy just to be "real"

[Foxglove]

I use the present tense "LOVE" because once you love someone...TRULY love them, my Dear Hearts..it's impossible to 'UN-LOVE' them...make sense? I still love my ex-wife...we're good friends. I have CD GF's and GG girlfriends that I stll love and cherish..my Face Book account is full of them. And my wife knows...acknowledges this...and loves me MORE because of my ability to love unconditionally? You would have to ask HER why...but there it is.

Two reasons:
(1) You obviously have a big heart, chock full of love. If you have plenty of it for others, she knows you'll always have plenty of it for her.
(2) Your love is enduring. If it's enduring for others, it will always be enduring for her.

I've never understood women who have affairs with married men and get so mad when the guy hesitates to divorce his wife and marry his lover. Such a woman expects a guy to be faithless to his wife but faithful to her. Seems silly to me: if you want a guy to be faithful, why encourage him to be faithless?

Annabelle

[Shananigans]

I normally don't date short guys, because I'm so tall. Most of the time it's because it feels awkward. It may go back to the "unattractive female" thing...it really has nothing to do with the short guy, but I can't deny I feel like a freak if I am a foot taller than the guy beside me. It's more like I'm afraid I look bad...sounds really awful, but that's my very blunt assessment of myself. Being too tall somehow means "manly" and being too "manly" of a woman generally means you're ugly. I know that I'm attractive, but maybe it's branded in to me somewhere that I must be perpetually perceived as attractive. It's really a ridiculous thing that most likely is due to gender stereotyping..just like big men are more manly and more attractive. (Though definitely not always the case). And, to add to that, I dated a guy that only made it up to my boobs...he was eye level with them...not sure what height that is... Literally, very few short guys have ever approached me. I guess they just write themselves off before they even apply? But, anyway, this dude asked me on a date...he was really confidant...he never made the height thing awkward (except that he commented on my legs every 5 seconds, but I guess that's better than talking about my boobs every 5 seconds). And, I mean, he was pretty hot...just really short...but, like, weirdly knew how to handle me. He was a lot if fun...but, then, I met my SO.

So, I'd still choose short over being an unattractive female. If I were a short guy, I'd probably be a lot like the guy I dated who didn't make it awkward/didn't hold him back...I think he had me blushing every 5 seconds, so maybe I'd be a little bit more reserved than he was, but he had the right idea. And, truthfully, I've never had another guy that could be assertive in a sexy/non-rude way...I think guys are typically more afraid to do that...so, he actually came off a but "bigger" than his peers half of the time (no innuendo intended).


Hi, Shan! I wanted to ask you something, and I swear to God I'm not getting confrontational here. I'm asking purely out of curiosity.



I can appreciate what you're saying here, along with everything else you're saying in this post. There's no doubt that women are judged on their physique--but so are guys.

Not necessarily so much on how good-looking they are. Even a really ugly guy can do quite nicely for himself--especially if he has lots of money, like a superstar athlete. But there are other ways of being judged on your physique.

So my question is, would you rather be an unattractive woman or a small guy? And I don't mean small--I mean small, like me, 5' 3". Because I can tell you, at that size, you don't even rate as a guy.

A friend of mine once told me that girls liked me because I was "cute like a puppy". And he had it spot on. Yeah, they liked me--as long as I agreed to be their puppy, as long as I didn't ask them to take me seriously. It happened more than once, I'd meet a girl I liked, I'd ask her out, she'd more or less roll her eyes and say nothing. I didn't even rate a "no". When she wanted a date, she'd put me back in my basket and go out to look for a real man.

I once saw a letter to the editor written by a guy who, as I recall, was 5' 7". He said he wouldn't give up an inch for a higher IQ. I was thinking about replying and saying, "Don't worry about it, man. To get up to a normal IQ, you'd need to give up so many inches you'd be invisible." But that's how it is: when you're a guy, having size is more important than having a good mind.

You can't imagine what it means to me to be a full-time "girl" now: I exist. I'm on the radar. I don't have to be ashamed. It's been quite a revelation.

So what do you think: unattractive woman or small guy?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Foxglove]

Literally, very few short guys have ever approached me. I guess they just write themselves off before they even apply?

Yep. That's about the size of it.

That said, I once knew a guy who was no bigger than me and he seemed to have no trouble getting any woman he wanted. I'm not sure how he did it. I suppose maybe I should have taken lessons from him.

[Amanda22]

How many of you would still want to BE her, if instead of being a "really attractive woman", you were simply a feminine version of yourselves which, if you fall within the average range in terms of looks, would be just an ordinary looking woman like most of us out there. You know, the ones who don't get whistled at, who don't have men tripping over themselves to open their door … the women who go to the grocery store and no one pays particular attention to them because they look just like everyone else.

Honestly, all I have ever wanted was to be a a feminine version of myself. I've never even fantasized about being a "10." My male appearance is average, I'm sure, and I'd love to appear that way except in a woman's body. This is a great thread, by the way!

[Lorileah]

Define Average:


So, again, do you really want to live your life as an average woman?

did anyone post the average male? Somehow, I don't think it would be Brad Pitt. I would venture that most those stats are comparable except the age may be lower and the income slightly higher.

It would also depend on where you live and other variables. Here in Colorado, that "average woman" would not be average. In my neighborhood, that "average woman" would not be average. In fact average is a myth.

I answered this at the beginning, but the way I understood the question was the only change would be your gender. Body type, age, shape, genetic features would remain the same.

And judging from how I present even with all my unchangeable parts, I would be very happy with the restrictions and limitations the OP made.

Since the majority of us have never been anything MORE than "average" in real life, gender would be the only thing we would see differently.


As a genetic, birth female, I believe the majority of posts in this forum are fantasy, compulsion and delusion. I have an impossible time reconciling what I read and the pictures posted in other areas to the life that I live as a woman.

One may get the impression you don't like who you are. Life is not rainbows and unicorns for most people. But usually there are things you can change in yourself if you don't like it. Delusion? Really? I see it differently, I see the majority who have to live with a reality of being not one thing nor another, but something in limbo. They see themselves often as something to be ashamed of. They are told daily that they cannot be whatever they feel they should be. And why not fantasy? Life is awful scary and boring if you don't have fantasy.

MY life, especially when I am "dressed" is wonderful. But then again, I am happy with me. And Everything being as it is if I were a "woman", I suspect I would enjoy my life anyway. lemons...lemonade....

[Shananigans]

Yep. That's about the size of it.

That said, I once knew a guy who was no bigger than me and he seemed to have no trouble getting any woman he wanted. I'm not sure how he did it. I suppose maybe I should have taken lessons from him.

Well, going with the attractive versus unattractive female thing, you have to realize a few things... First, everyone is insecure. Attractive women have a weird power that I think might be a power that people on this forum find themselves chasing...but, even a beautiful woman is insecure. Guys with good game can empathize with this...the guy with good game also knows that the attractive girl gets a lot of compliments on her looks. She is probably painfully aware that she has a sort of weird power over men, and she's ho-hum that you called attention to it. It kind of makes a girl insecure about something Other than her looks...maybe she thinks that she will only be seen as bits and pieces to a guy. The guy with no game compliments the girl on her appearance. A guy with good game enters a conversation with her like she's a human being and compliments her on something that she says. And, it's another thing to consider that girls get very used to shooting guys down...sometimes you just want to be left alone and the "whole charade" gets to be an exercise in rejection. Guys generally know that pushy is bad...pushy can even get you in jail. But, guys with pretty good game won't get shot down too easily...he's persistent in a non-pushy way that's hard to describe.

When you're 25, you've seen guys up to a lot of crap. You figure out the routine a bit...so, you need a guy with a bit more "game." It seems like Now when younger girls from my old sorority get invited up to a party that I'm at, I see them falling for a lot of crap. They're just now really getting "out" and meeting guys...they have been around boys and don't really know if men find them attractive...so, they're more likely to fall for a guy complimenting their looks...and, they shoot guys down in a weird way so that most of the guys will at least try a second shot. Unattractive women are approached too...sometimes it can be a little sad...and, I think Some guys know they can manipulate these girls. I think these are the same guys that give "having game" a bad name...because, it becomes synonymous with being sleazy. In actuality, these guys have no game...they just know that some girls will do anything to feel validated that they are beautiful. A lot of girls do not need that validation from a man...but, she still expects men to at least know what they're doing. That's when real game is nice. It's pointing out the obvious that most of us (men and women) want sex...yeah, women wants sex too...many of us are going out to find someone that we might find interesting (and, maybe even a potential partner). But, it's just that when guys go about it treating women like objects...or, that they're somehow entitled to something from a woman that it gets old. And, depending on the girl, you can approach things a few ways...the best way is to just approach everyone as just a person. We forget that we're all just people. But, in many cases, we are driven by our insecurities...some women (and men) are worried that they aren't sexually attractive and may jump readily at anyone who might be interested. And, other men (and women) know that they are attractive, but would still like to be treated as something other than a bauble.

That's the long and short of my perspective on the dating scene with "attractive" versus "unattractive" people.

I'd like to think I'd never need a guy to validate me on my attractiveness, but it seems to happen a lot...to unattractive women...which only makes me even more uncomfortable with the idea of being an unattractive female.

Man...that sucks...I think I died a little just now while I was thinking about this gendered nonsense that we've allowed ourselves to follow faithfully.

[LauraBird]

I highly value my guy life and will always regard my guy roles as the primary part of my life, so my answer would be 'no'. But I certainly do wish there was an easy way to shift easily to the gal side when I want - but that'll have to remain a fiction. Wish I had room in my life for magic, but I value reality too highly.

Miriam

100% agreed. I like being in girl mode... but I also very much like my guy side. And if anything, the more I grow as a CD'er, the more I realize this, and the more I enjoy and embrace BOTH sides.




I don’t want to be a woman, I’m not looking to transition. But when I dress, I really like the person looking back at me from the mirror – even without makeup. If I were to become a woman, I wouldn’t want to be anyone else.

Wendy

Agreed with this, too. As I get better with makeup and clothing styles, I really like the girl looking back. I guess if there was ONE thing I'd change, it would be my height (6'2 stands out!) Otherwise, I don't think I'd change anything. I like me.

[docrobbysherry]

I normally don't date short guys, because I'm so tall. Most of the time it's because it feels awkward. It may go back to the "unattractive female" thing...it really has nothing to do with the short guy, but I can't deny I feel like a freak if I am a foot taller than the guy beside me. It's more like I'm afraid I look bad...sounds really awful, but that's my very blunt assessment of myself. Being too tall somehow means "manly" and being too "manly" of a woman generally means you're ugly. I know that I'm attractive, but maybe it's branded in to me somewhere that I must be perpetually perceived as attractive. It's really a ridiculous thing that most likely is due to gender stereotyping..just like big men are more manly and more attractive. (Though definitely not always the case). And, to add to that, I dated a guy that only made it up to my boobs...he was eye level with them...not sure what height that is... Literally, very few short guys have ever approached me. I guess they just write themselves off before they even apply? But, anyway, this dude asked me on a date...he was really confidant...he never made the height thing awkward (except that he commented on my legs every 5 seconds, but I guess that's better than talking about my boobs every 5 seconds). And, I mean, he was pretty hot...just really short...but, like, weirdly knew how to handle me. He was a lot if fun...but, then, I met my SO.

So, I'd still choose short over being an unattractive female. If I were a short guy, I'd probably be a lot like the guy I dated who didn't make it awkward/didn't hold him back...I think he had me blushing every 5 seconds, so maybe I'd be a little bit more reserved than he was, but he had the right idea. And, truthfully, I've never had another guy that could be assertive in a sexy/non-rude way...I think guys are typically more afraid to do that...so, he actually came off a but "bigger" than his peers half of the time (no innuendo intended).
Sorry, everyone. I've had my evening glass of wine and don't feel up to editing Shana's post. However, I'm about 5' 10" and have been with 2 girls over 6'. Both refused to wear heels and were quite sensitive about their height. Both were attractive, sexy women. And, quite straight judging by our er- sexual activities.

The first I met on a tour to Hong Kong. She was with her mom, me with my dad. She was 20, I was about 28. She was one of the most passionate and physical women I've ever been with! I'll NEVER forget that long cab ride back to my hotel room after we got all heated up visiting an outdoor park! When we got home, I had to look her up. She lived about an hour drive away. I picked her up from her junior college and we had lunch. She looked and acted completely different and stressed out. And, spoke mostly about her 5' 6" boyfriend. Why did she have to tell me his height? We lost contact after that.

The second was my girlfriend for over a year. She had always been so sensitive about her date's height/size. She was about 6' 1" and 150 pounds. But, looked perfectly purportioned with a small waist. I weighed about 165 then, and woved never to date a woman who outweighed me. Finally, she wanted to get married or break up. I wasn't in love her, so we broke up.

Funny thing about the tall and short women I've been with. It never bothered me and I couldn't tell the difference when they were lying down!

[jillleanne]

Why thank you Da-hling..:heehee:

Wha'de he say? Wha'de she say? :eek:

LOL. The top of my post # 113 here was a failed attempt to quote Reine's post, followed by my reply. Sorry for the mixup.

[jillleanne]

[QUOTE=docrobbysherry;3053077]This is why I prefer to use the word, "attractive" in such conversations. It's different for everyone, but everyone knows what's attractive to them. U look in the mirror and u r or u aren't. U see a woman pass by and u find her, attractive, or not. We don't need to use words like, average, ordinary, ugly, homely, fat, etc. Or terms like, passing, blending, confident, etc., either. Attractive or not attractive really covers it all.



What I meant by saying and I quote, " iinterest in cd'ing", I was referring to the fact that I do not express myself because I find it interesting per say. I express my femme side because it's a part of my daily life; I feel normal when en femme, not 'excited', nor sexually stimulated. Being en femme is not a weekend sport for me and I have to express my femme self, like it or not. Me being out and having a completely accepting spouse who supports me 110% makes life much easier.
I do not distinguish labels and consider us all as transgender/gender enhanced. In my opinion, if you are a cd'er, you are tg but do have some specific issues that do not share themselves with say anyone ts. I have always disliked labels so I do not class myself as anything other than hetero. tg or gender enhanced. Makes life much simplier.

[Ceri Anne]

Knowing that I am a good looking guy, not a stud but decently good looking, I feel I would be a decent looking woman if I were a GG. Reasonable figure, fairly attractive, but no super model. I would be very content to be in that catagory. I know lots of women who are on the 7/8 scale if it must be put so, that are everyday people and I would love to look like.

[StephanieJ]

I'm not sure if it speaks to an emotionally healthy sense of self, but I would BE her... Permanently, without a return ticket. I love who I am, but have always longed for the female version. Same career, same family, same lifestyle, same everything!

Does that mean I'm a TS instead of a CD? Nope, don't think so, that's not my path. I will finish life the way I started and choose to be happy along the way.

[prene]

I think I would want to be the female version of myself.

I am a crazy into cardio so I would get my body in shape. Face .. just avg .. which is OK

If I wanted to I could always get a boob job if I was too small. LOL

[TeresaL]

I would probably rather be a tall, handsome guy more than a beautiful, shapely woman. Well almost. I'm so much into not being outed for the most part, that I sometimes forget that it would be nice to be a 10. Trouble is, I'm a short, bald, and bland looking guy, who is blind to how he looks in female expression.

I either erroneously, obliviously, or stubbornly think that I'm accepted when expressing either my male or female side. As to being an ordinary female, I sure hope so, and I am willing to accept it if it is true, and really is reality. That's all I want.

My blindside has got the best of me though. That's because (to my knowledge) I have never been clocked in either mode. Not even male mode. LOL OTOH, some circles have commented that none of us really pass, so it probably isn't true that I pass as female -- even though I think so. BooHoo. But I've got broad shoulders for Teresa to cry on. HEHEE

... in case ya are wondering, and it has been brought up before. I've been bald since I was in my late twenties, and am over 65 now. Way too many years to live with male pattern baldness, but I don't even grieve anymore. Female crap has been with me since before adolescence, and I thought Vietnam would straighten me out, it only gave me 70% disability. Then thought marriage would do it, it didn't, then thought religion would, it didn't, then thought multiple head shrinks, AA, SA, and reparative therapy would, it didn't. So I'm here with y'all and learning to adjust to my permanent situation. You know what? It ain't that bad!

[jillleanne]

More food for thought: If we, that is, everyone under the tg umbrella( like it or not) have no real idea( and none of us do ) what it is like to be 100% male 24/7 with nothing but 100% male thoughts and actions, how would we be able to say with any certainty, we would like to be a female; butt ugly or drop dead beautiful? Really, We have no true concept of being male? Maybe, many would rather be male? I have no idea what I would like. Not true. I would LOVE the opportunity to be 100% male 24/7 and then, rerun the same years over as 100% female 24/7. Then rerun those same years over again as I am now, tg. That ladies, would be the ultimate hoot for me!!!!! Who would be first? Would it matter?

[sometimes_miss]

Almostalady wrote:
I would like to know what all these "entitlements" are that men automatically have.
This is almost the universal response to this. Usually, we have no idea of what goes on around us. But there are certain advantages men have over being women, it's just that, there also exist advantages women have, over men, and both often only see the grass as greener on the other side of the fence. So, I'll simply start with the first. I don't have to stand in line for the bathroom nearly as long as women do. You can easily do a google search about the advantages of being one sex or the other.

Elledusud wrote:
According to US Bureau of Statistics, National Center for Health Statistics, US Census Bureau, and US Standard Sizing, using data gathered during the years 2008 - 2011, the average American woman is:
45 years old
5'4" tall
Weighs 167 pounds
Is obese
Body measurements are 41-36-44
Wears a misses size 20 in clothing
Has 37% body fat
Excess body fat is carried primarily in the abdomen
Earns $37,000 per year
This is "Average". Is this who you want to be?
Seriously, I am very interested in understanding this.
As a genetic, birth female, I believe the majority of posts in this forum are fantasy, compulsion and delusion. I have an impossible time reconciling what I read and the pictures posted in other areas to the life that I live as a woman.
So, again, do you really want to live your life as an average woman?
This presumes that we'd let it get that far. However, men know and acknowledge how much appearance makes a difference in a woman's life, while most women simply prefer to ignore it, and chant the ever popular feminist supposition that 'it's what's inside that counts', and try to get men to believe that what we want is somehow unimportant vs. what women want in a mate. They even made a movie out of it, 'Real women have curves', which really meant 'Real women are fat' (that is really one thing that annoys me to no extent, that fat people simply think of themselves as 'curvy', when instead, what they really are is 'round', all the 'curves' go in one direction. Much to their chagrin, life doesn't work that way. As I've mentioned previously, what I'd like is the chance to start out as a normal female (not average, which now indicates obesity all the way down to the single digit ages in America). Normal females aren't 50% overweight. So no, I'd never choose to live life as an average, obese woman. What I find confusing is why so many women choose to live their life that way. That is tantamount to a man choosing to remain a minimum wage earner for his life. Sure, you can do it; but WHY??? There are simply different things that men and women find important in their mates. People ignore that at their own risk.

So, the answer to the real question here, "I wanted to know how many CDers would want to be women only if, in the words of one of our members, he (or she), could be "hot", is this:
We men know that most women can be, as above, "hot". But like getting a better job is for men, it's going to require some work, and sadly most women don't want 'to go there'. Attributed to Helena Rubenstein, "There are no ugly women, only lazy ones". Every guy on this thread has seen a normal not tremendously attractive woman turned into "hot" simply by make up, hair styling, and clothing choices carefully changed from what she previously had chosen.
Try this link on for size and see the difference between what a normal woman can do with herself (I won't post pics because it might eat up bandwidth for those on dial up). Again note that I wrote 'normal', not average. http://love-fairytales-love.blogspot.com/2012/01/there-are-nio-ugly-women-just-lazy-ones.html
Of course, having lived half a century as a male, I have the benefit of hindsight, so some of my ideas must be attributed to that. But I think a lot of women underestimate how many men would find them attractive, if they put a little more effort into it, and stopped denying to themselves how much importance visual appeal rates on the male 'attraction-o-meter'.