intetesting coversation

[GabbiSophia]

Had an interesting conversation with some today that mentioned that when most start to transition on hormones end up wanting to be with a men. They didn't say when it then switch happened. I could see where the ultimate exclamation point o. The transition would be attractive to men. They said that even girls that related to being a lesbian ended up liking and dating men. I was curious about those transitioning or have already if you went through this mental change?

[Kathryn Martin]

It really depends what your sexual orientation is. Are you attracted to men?

Changing your orientation because of hormones is hogwash.

[Lorileah]

Let's look at this logically. If that worked then giving lesbian women hormones would make them straight...right? File that under, sounds OK, but it isn't. I am not sure that the majority of TS's like men before during OR after :) In fact I know two who decided they were lesbian after transitioning. they were "gay" men before

[sandra-leigh]

Changing your orientation because of hormones is hogwash.

And yet it has been reported by several TS here. Saying that those people are all hogwashing us is as untenable a position as saying that they had each always been hogwashing themselves until they were able to come to terms with their "real" sexual orientation.

If it is accepted that one's sense of smell changes, then is there something known definitively about sexual orientation or about the physics of smell that prevents the possibility that the revised sense of smell becomes sensitive to different hormones? Do we know that much about how sexual orientation works? Do we know that much about how smell works? NO and NO.

[Kathryn Martin]

The APA has released several statements that sexual orientation cannot be changed. It develops as a result of genes and prenatal hormones. It is either reinforced or suppressed by social norms.

It must be distinguished from sexual preference which may occur in persons with a bi-sexual orientation.

Your post suggests that sexual orientation can be altered by external intervention; as I said hogwash

[Stephanie-L]

I personally doubt this. In my case I am, and always have been, Bi. If I feel more interested in men now than I have in the past, I think it is because I allow myself to be, not suppressing it to keep society happy. I do not think it is due to any hormonal influence......................Stephanie

[melissaK]

Writer and gender therapist Anne Vitale notes after transition many do prefer members of their natal gender.

“A genetic male who is used to being in a sexual relationship with women may realize a strong, new, attraction to males once he, now she, is free to both look and act feminine. The new feelings may be triggered by the sexual response a new presentation to the world evokes in others or it may be due to the effects of the estrogen on the brain. The actual cause is unknown” (Excerpt From: Anne Vitale PhD. “The Gendered Self.” Flyfisher Press, 2010-01-04. iBooks.)

[Badtranny]

Oh I love these topics!

I was a closeted gay man because I didn't want to accept that I was gay. I was openly bi because I didn't want to accept that I was gay. I was openly gay but I still couldn't accept myself as gay, which brought me to the point of transition. Now post transition I can barely remember much less desire a naked woman.

Was it the HRT? Or did I hate myself so much that I simply could not accept the truth? I am strictly dickly from birth, the HRT merely precipitated the acceptance of that fact.

[Inna]

Interesting question with an interesting answer, I could not imagine only 3 years ago that I would feel overwhelmingly pleased and lost in the feeling of serenity in the arms of a masculine male. As I have opened the flood gates of truth so did I open the pathway to true emotions, those deep within the core. As for my entire life I searched for the illusive perfect woman who can give me that feeling I was after yet wasn't able to describe or put my finger on. I never found this feeling and thought that perhaps I am just making up stuff. Then through the transition the hormones and my openness to the truth allowed me to venture into the realm of maybes and ifs, and then one day, out of all the possible scenarios, I was on the phone with my sisters husband who called back wanting to talk to me because of my suicidal thoughts unable to be resolved with my sis.

He spoke warmly and clearly, with the warmth of a beautiful heart, he calmed me down, but the way he did this was astonishing. For the first time in my life I felt embraced, saved, sheltered by a man and it felt absolutely wonderful. This was the ever so illusive feeling I was searching for my entire life, this was what mans love of a woman felt like. I am sorry I can not convey the power and solstice of that moment, but believe me it was beyond what I could ever imagine.

To understand how woman loves one needs to be a woman, which by the definition comes with the HRT territory. It changes our perception, physical sexuality into sensual realm, it unblocks cognitive patterns which were cloudied by Testosterone running within female brain.


But said all that, when I opened my heart to every possibility I also demolished all the boundaries of societal conformity and loving another became the essence of devotion and love of other true self and not of what is politically correct. And so who knows whom I will fall in love with, perhaps man or perhaps a woman or perhaps a transsexual individual on the road to truth and wholeness.

[NikkiGirl]

Let's look at this logically. If that worked then giving lesbian women hormones would make them straight...right? File that under, sounds OK, but it isn't. I am not sure that the majority of TS's like men before during OR after :) In fact I know two who decided they were lesbian after transitioning. they were "gay" men before

There was the dark ages period in my life to where I felt like I needed to give being a male a chance; no mater how unnatural it felt, and so I put on my male mask and started going out with women. Quite a few of them actually. Even lived with a few of them for a couple of years at a stretch and one thing I discovered was the more I was sexually involved with a woman the more feminine I would feel and become. I found myself wanting to become HER and in many ways I would, to the point of wearing her clothes and using her makeup; all without her knowing of course. And I enjoyed the sex, BUT found after about a year or so of living together I would start becoming jealous of her. Jealous because she was free to be feminine and do those things that girls love to do and I was not! Jealous because she was a woman and I wasn't.

Also SHE would see the transformation. I've had numerous live-ins and GF's comment that I was so much like a girl. After about a year or so it starts to take its toll on me and my behavour would be greatly altered. To be truthful there were two fantasies that would manifest themselves from this scene: 1. Fantasies that what I was doing to her sexually was really what I wanted done to me, or 2. I was a woman having sex with a woman. Sometimes those two at equal splits in occurance, sometimes one would dominate over the other and then alternate. But the common thread here was that in either case I wanted to be and feel like a woman! In having sex with men, there have been only a very very few that actually were able to make me feel feminine. Of course if I had a vagina then I suppose that would change, so its not a good comparison of women vs men because of this. So I find myself leaning more towards women because they are in general more sensitive. Still, there is just nothing that can replace that warm secure feeling of feeling protected when enbraced in someone's strong arms. Kinda like snuggling up with a big teddybear!

As far as the gay part, I have never accepted that label be affixed to me because if I wanted to be a girl and was in my heart, mind and even spirit, then how in the hell could I possibly be gay? So people can argue this point until hell freezes but I think its absolutely retarded to consider 'guys who are really girls' any other way. I once saw a psychiatrist and told him I wanted to be a girl. He commented 'So you're homosexual then'. I asked about his family and he told me he had two daughters a son and a lovely wife. I commented: 'So you're heterosexual then'. He got my point and apologized for characterizing me like he did.

[ReineD]

I've also read about this scenario: a TS believes herself to be into women pre-CDing, pre-hormones, pre-transition, although she will have perhaps fantasized about men but only when dressed. And then as things move along, she realizes that what she thought was a sexual attraction to women was in fact a desire to be emotionally close to them, because of the affinity that she felt with womanhood in general. She further realizes that sex with a woman becomes "flat", as things progress with her transition and as testosterone levels diminish. And then one day, she realizes that she is not, in fact, sexually attracted to women, but she is attracted to men even though she still feels a deep bond with women. Whether or not she acts on it I suppose depends on the strength of her emotional bond with her wife, if she is married.

Not everyone, mind you, but some. And I've heard this from both sides of the fence.

[GabbiSophia]

Writer and gender therapist Anne Vitale notes after transition many do prefer members of their natal gender.

“A genetic male who is used to being in a sexual relationship with women may realize a strong, new, attraction to males once he, now she, is free to both look and act feminine. The new feelings may be triggered by the sexual response a new presentation to the world evokes in others or it may be due to the effects of the estrogen on the brain. The actual cause is unknown” (Excerpt From: Anne Vitale PhD. “The Gendered Self.” Flyfisher Press, 2010-01-04. iBooks.)


Well this is pretty much how it was said to me ... lol ..makes for a mute point when the author is who they are. Thanx for the post!!


I've also read about this scenario: a TS believes herself to be into women pre-CDing, pre-hormones, pre-transition, although she will have perhaps fantasized about men but only when dressed. And then as things move along, she realizes that what she thought was a sexual attraction to women was in fact a desire to be emotionally close to them, because of the affinity that she felt with womanhood in general. She further realizes that sex with a woman becomes "flat", as things progress with her transition and as testosterone levels diminish. And then one day, she realizes that she is not, in fact, sexually attracted to women, but she is attracted to men even though she still feels a deep bond with women. Whether or not she acts on it I suppose depends on the strength of her emotional bond with her wife, if she is married.

Not everyone, mind you, but some. And I've heard this from both sides of the fence.

I can see this thought process and why it happens. I was truelly just asking if it happened to those who have transitioned. I wasn't hinting that people were "gay" or not it was more of a hormone thing.

[Kathryn Martin]

The problem is that this statement is of course course conjecture and speculation by her. Even the way she phrases it makes it clear that there is nothing supporting the statement.

There is however some research that supports that orientation is something that once settled is there for the ride.




Writer and gender therapist Anne Vitale notes after transition many do prefer members of their natal gender.

“A genetic male who is used to being in a sexual relationship with women may realize a strong, new, attraction to males once he, now she, is free to both look and act feminine. The new feelings may be triggered by the sexual response a new presentation to the world evokes in others or it may be due to the effects of the estrogen on the brain. The actual cause is unknown” (Excerpt From: Anne Vitale PhD. “The Gendered Self.” Flyfisher Press, 2010-01-04. iBooks.)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I've also read about this scenario: a TS believes herself to be into women pre-CDing, pre-hormones, pre-transition, although she will have perhaps fantasized about men but only when dressed. And then as things move along, she realizes that what she thought was a sexual attraction to women was in fact a desire to be emotionally close to them, because of the affinity that she felt with womanhood in general. She further realizes that sex with a woman becomes "flat", as things progress with her transition and as testosterone levels diminish. And then one day, she realizes that she is not, in fact, sexually attracted to women, but she is attracted to men even though she still feels a deep bond with women. Whether or not she acts on it I suppose depends on the strength of her emotional bond with her wife, if she is married.

Not everyone, mind you, but some. And I've heard this from both sides of the fence.

This is like something I could have written about myself

There was an earlier comment about "being" a woman.. that's how i think of it... with no hard data that i'm aware of i found that my sexuality was fluid.....my best speculation of what I experienced is that because i "accepted" that i was male, and compartmentalized it away, i did a similar thing with my sexuality...

so the concept of "orientation" becomes nebulous...perhaps orientation includes both the incoming signals that cause us to be aroused and also our outgoing feelings around the animal part of arousal...

[Badtranny]

I've also read about this scenario:

It's because I've written that almost verbatim!

Are you stalking my blog???

;-)

[Lorileah]

How about looking at it from another perspective. After transition, one is now a woman. And in today's society, who do women usually date and eventually marry? In order to get the whole enchilada, isn't it likely that many who do start "being" with men do it because it is part of the experience? The becoming a woman? Are they really attracted to men? Or is it back to the old "I am a woman therefore:..."? I really do not think the hormones will change your attraction. Consider that maybe 40% of the TS's are bisexual to start. Now they just act out on the male part. It is more nurture than nature. I hate to cite the CD boards but how many times do we see that "If I was a woman I would want to have children, (a husband) because I want the whole experience" (usually followed by "but I am NOT gay").

As someone posted recently on the MtF boards, not exact quote but similar to this, "If I transitioned, I would date (or marry, I don't remember for sure) a FtM." This to me is a classic cake and eat it too. It reconciles the fact that they want a male partner, but they are still with a female. It fulfills the scenario.

[melissaK]

I am not fully transitioned. I'm hormoned across the divide, but not RLE transitioned across the divide. So, I have to just wait and see.

Right now though, I'm pretty sure I like women, and that I will always like women. It's kinda like I have always known I was TS. As soon as I knew what TS was, I knew it was me. And as for lesbians, as soon as I knew what one was, I thought that was me. And the first time I ever had a lesbian make a pass at me, I melted. And, then there was that 14 year long second marriage I had. A year after our divorce my ex came out as a Lesbian and has been happily living as one ever since.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Changing your orientation because of hormones is hogwash.


:believeit::believeit:


I would argue that hormones DO have a major influence on who you are attracted to. Yes, there are exceptions else we would not have LGB's.

[arbon]

I have a much greater sexual attraction to men than I did before starting hrt.


And then one day, she realizes that she is not, in fact, sexually attracted to women, but she is attracted to men even though she still feels a deep bond with women. Whether or not she acts on it I suppose depends on the strength of her emotional bond with her wife, if she is married.

Even though my wife and I are not sexually attracted to each other we are still in a very loving and close relationship and because of that I would not act on my feelings. I also don't think I could ever have that same emotional bond with a man that I have with her.

[LeaP]

I agree with Kathryn and others that one's true, or inner orientation doesn't change.

That said, a point that must be dealt with is the greater proportion (vs the cisgendered population) of bisexual and gay-identified trans people. Think about it - if gender and sex are TRULY separate, then the incidence shouldn't materially differ from that of the population as a whole. But it does. The question of repression and the freeing of one's true sexuality is irrelevant to the numbers problem.

One possible answer, at least for the MTF population, is that women are more sexually fluid than men, a concept that has had a lot of attention from sex researchers. So a trans woman with a basic sexual preference for men is more capable, vs a cisgender man, of acting on male attraction, even if in relationships with women, pre-transition, as well as persisting a relationship with a woman post-transition. Conversely, a trans woman with a basic sexual preference for women will be more open to sex with men than the cisgender population, pre-transition, and, of course often surface their true orientation post-transition as frequently noted.

Either way, it rationalizes why the incidence of homosexuality and bisexuality are higher, whether considered from the pre or post perspectives.

Although it rather twists the mind a bit to think through it ...

[ReineD]

It's because I've written that almost verbatim!

Are you stalking my blog???

;-)

No. LOL. But, others have written it too, and I've also spoken with GGs who have felt their husbands change. It is actually the explanation that makes the most sense to me, that might account for a Transwoman who used to be in relationships with women and now is in relationships with men, if she got divorced over the transition.

Edit - I've spoken to two GGs who have stayed the course with transitioned husbands. Their relationships are different. Physical attraction is long gone. Both couples prioritize their deep, emotional friendship/(sisterly) bonds, which when you think of it, happens anyway between aging couples. Sex really does take a back seat. If their transwomen partners do still fantasize about men, they do not act on it.

[Kathryn Martin]

Just to clarify, the operative word is "change". Hormone washes during gestation are one of the things that actually establish orientation.


:believeit::believeit:


I would argue that hormones DO have a major influence on who you are attracted to. Yes, there are exceptions else we would not have LGB's.

[Sally24]

If sexual orientation is"set" by the time you are born and never changes.......

Why is it that many or even most transwomen who transition in their teens end up heterosexual? Either you think that hormones can affect the brain in many ways....or.......maybe many more people are born bi and just go with the culturally approved attractions.

[Catherine Hopkins]

Am I allowed to be pansexual? My orientation doesn't/isn't changing because it was always flexible enough to see any and all variations as attractive although the EMPHASIS changes over time and always has. That might LOOK like a flip flop from straight to gay to straight again but I tend to be monogamous so it only LOOKS like I'm only sexually attracted to one gender - at a time. I'm attracted to all genders, I just only DO something about it in the direction of my current partner.

[Kathryn Martin]

Why is it that many or even most transwomen who transition in their teens end up heterosexual?

Many women who transition in their teens are attracted to men. Some women who transition in their teens are attracted to women. And some women who transition in their teens are attracted to both men and women.

If you had read Misty's post you would understand how apparent change comes about. In addition, bi-sexual persons can have a sexual preference which is distinct from orientation. What Catherine Hopkins describes is a very good example.

[MonctonGirl]

I'm sure I'll get some flames for this, but ....

Primal Attraction in an xx chromosome female is cause by DOMINANCE,
whether it be PERCEIVED from images ( poor wimpy guy vs. rich athletic guy )
or SHOWN in personal reactions ( Guy makes fun of her - or even abuses her a bit
- it causes the age old attraction mechanism start up and make her want that guy
- even if she hates him. )

This was to ensure that the female would procreate with STRONG males whose offspring
were more likely to survive.

Estrogen causes female thinking patterns and emotional responses.
Most every TG here taking hormones will tell you their THINKING and EMOTIONAL RESPONSE
changed on hormones.

So it is not unrealistic that once on HRT , a once "straight male" who was too inhibited to
allow himself to be "free" to be submissive would later have such a fantasy
or just merely be attracted to the things that GGs (due estrogen) are attracted to.

I don't believe there is any data indicating that homosexuals were ever given hormones
to "cure" their homosexuality ... so ... we don't really know if it failed or not.

What I'd like to know is:

Do most TG people have the same chromoset as their "brain sex"
( eg. Do "most or any" MTF TGs have xx chromosomes? I know sports tests for this...for a reason )

This would make sense because some kids who are 4 and 5 years old already identify as TG
and this would bee too soon for pubertal hormone changes.... so .... any thoughts or data on this?

[KellyJameson]

Inna if you have ever doubted whether you are 100% woman you can caste those doubts aside because only a woman could have written those words. IMHO of course :)

That may be one of the most beautiful pieces of writing I have read on this forum and I hope you save it and read it anytime you are having doubts about yourself.

In my opinion the very definition of being TS is accepting the possibility that your sexuality MAY be fluid and MAY change.

I to have experienced what Inna talks of.

Nature designs us for procreation first and foremost because otherwise life would cease but we are more than nature so we are influenced by nature but to differing degrees stand outside it.

Nature is genetics,epigentics and chemicals all moving as one to keep life moving foreward with us caught in the movement.

We contradict ourselves when we say we are born woman in bodies that need to reflect who we were born as when we treat sex as being "ONLY" fixed with no possibility of change.

Yes it is fixed for "some" (but also) Yes it is not fixed for "others"

The same forces that result in being TS also "Can" influence our sexuality when that sexuality "Can" be influenced by the chemical and social experiences we encounter.

Sexuality is separate from gender but gender and sexuality start from the same place which is our physical design which is why it is correct to say that as TS's we were born as women whose sexuality may be fluid or fixed depending on other variables.

Gender just "is" and you cannot chose it because it chooses you but out of that than comes our sexuality and many of those who are TS fail in sexual relations with women while many do not.

Also as TS your sexuality can create a tension so you are pulled in two separate directions at once where you do not want to lose your sexuality but yet cannot live with it either so you struggle to give up the identity you were born with to keep the sexuality you have to the point where you try to "cure" identity with sex but you cannot change what nature created so the result is you torment yourself needlesly.

I did not have this but I would suspect it must be a form of hell on earth.

[BreenaDion]

I was always attracted to the beauty of a woman and those male sexual fancies as I never had a homophobic thought. In my case , proven in psychology I was in all purpose an alpha male thou that conversation I will not continue any further. Since the start of transitioning almost 4 yrs ago I have shifted my sexual orientation from straight male to a more open pan sexual ideals . In months of therapy about PTSD I have come to see why such a switch has occurred. Being in a committed relationship of 25 yrs I feel no need to end this wonderful an fulfilling marriage. There was a short period of time early on in transitioning I had the erg to remove myself from that relationship. My social worker handling my transition offered me marriage saving advise. She told me that my transitioning would be a lot easier if I choice to stay at home with my family. Wonderful and totally excepting wife and two totally supportive teenage children. In those ways I am Blessed and very fortunate that I remained a part of our family. Until and if ever I get srs I see no need to separate myself from this family unit. When the time comes and If I receive such an operation then the need will arrive to go out side the marriage for that is just speculation for now. If I was to get srs and if I became a widow I do feel I would have those feelings of " In my case of being not of the norm " considering experimenting on different sexual partners of all genders, even males.

[KellyJameson]

Lea nailed it.

"One possible answer, at least for the MTF population, is that women are more sexually fluid than men, a concept that has had a lot of attention from sex researchers"

This is exactly correct. A womans sexuality has more "possibilities" for expression because she does not have to rely on an erection.

Her energy is receptive not penetrative so she by default has more options because her biology does not get in the way.

This is also one reason (among many) for the universal and timeless fear that men have for womens sexuality because they subconsciously "know" she is not limited by the same constraints they are.

And of course as woman this applies to us as well.

Beautiful sharing on this thread.

I love this forum!

[Ann Louise]

I personally doubt this. In my case I am, and always have been, Bi. If I feel more interested in men now than I have in the past, I think it is because I allow myself to be, not suppressing it to keep society happy. I do not think it is due to any hormonal influence......................Stephanie

Same with me Stephanie - I've had a few sexual adventures with men over the years, although that pretty much stopped when AIDS reared its ugly head in the '80's, so I know I' m bi. I've been faithfully married to my (female) wife for many years now, but now that I've permitted my female nature to freely surface, I'm feeling some of that old attraction to some facets of maleness also surface again. I don't pretend to understand it, but it's definitely there. Still, I'm strongly sexually attracted to my wife. Go figure! Elfin