Are Crossdressers Disproportionately of Unsound Mental Health?

[Jamie Ann]

I would be interested in the responses of others who have pondered that question. Many of the discussions here seem to assume that the answer is yes. But the trend in other circles has been away from that view, both in the US and in other nations with large numbers of crossdressers. Is the trend misguided? Or does it have merit?

Mumbai, India may have more crossdressers (i.e., transgender women of one kind or another) than any other city in the world, although the available statistics are just rough estimates. Indeed, I’ve been told that that Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi, Hyderabad, and Chennai all have substantial transgender populations. In my opinion, the Indian transgender persons often are very good-looking. I love the brightly colored saris (clothing) and gold jewelry that some of them wear. But the more basic point is that transgender people in large numbers are found on every continent. World-wide, there are more than 150 million of us. In addition, transgender people have been documented in many Western and non-Western cultures from antiquity. We are a normal part of the human gender spectrum.

That assertion runs counter to the dogmas of US psychiatrists as recently as the early 1990s — and even to the ideas of a few rear-guard psychiatrists today. Regarding the latter, there is a group named the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) that is well-funded and a hotbed of “professionals” who have not budged from the idea that transgender people have mental and other medical disorders. The American Psychiatric Association, a much more credible source of information, recently disavowed that notion (their updated Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, DSM5, will officially become available in May 2013); but to understand WPATH and its intransigence on a premise that is contradicted by most of the pertinent evidence, we need to recognize that some individuals have vested interests in the older view. Their incomes may depend on whether crossdressing is seen as a normal condition or as a mental disorder. If the latter is widely accepted, then they receive more prestige, power, and income! Nonetheless, according the American Psychiatric Association, a mental disorder is a condition that causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social or occupational functioning. If having cross-gender feelings is a terrible disorder, then why are there so many well-functioning transgender persons all over the world?

But someone might argue, “Doesn’t that overlook thousands of poorly functioning transgender persons?” As I was thinking about this, The Washington Post, a prestigious US newspaper, did a feature story on transgender prostitution in Washington D.C. One of those they interviewed was Staci Daniel, a 23-year-old escort who had been working on the K Street NW strip for several years. She got into sex-work when she realized that her transgender identity and appearance were preventing her from being hired for other work. She desperately needed to put food on the table; and she discovered that she could make hundreds of dollars a week as an escort. Besides supporting herself, she began putting a niece through college.

Most large US cities today have districts like the K Street NW strip. Many of those who work in such areas have been thrown out of their homes by parents who thought that being transgender was an abomination unto God. It concerns me that parents should be so judgmental of transgender teenagers; they (and we) should at least try to understand the reasons for the work they may wind up doing. They are functioning as best they can under the circumstances. I hope that Staci will find other work eventually, and that she also will find the happiness to which we all aspire.

The important point here is that when people encounter what they think are poorly functioning transgender persons, they usually are missing something important. There usually is more to it than meets the eye. Although Staci Daniel seems both intelligent and emotionally healthy, we must recognize that prejudice and discrimination can cause clinically significant impairment in practically anyone’s functioning. The term “psychological victimization” (see the link below) refers to how that happens. Being transgender can lead to being discriminated against, which in turn can lead to psychological distress and related symptoms. Most transgender persons escape that chain of consequences, but some do not. Some transgender persons in the US and across the world have not been as lucky as I have.

Anyway, your thoughts on any of this would be welcome!

http://toselfbetrue.com/transgender/glossary.html#victim

[NicoleScott]

I didn't read anything in your post that attempted to answer the question posed in the title.

[Slipstream]

there are more than 150 million of us.

And to think I was probably 20 before I realized that I wasn't the only one.

Seriously though, back in the 90's I used to enjoy reading Dian Hanson's editorial page in "Leg Show" magazine. She was well educated on the subject and her beliefs were quite the opposite. She believed that most were highly intelligent, well functioning members of society. She also believed that many were very "manly" and that the dressing created a "balance" in thier life.

[ArleneRaquel]

If I say what I think my post would be deleted, but I will say this, CD's as all people run the gambit of mental health and other issues.

[DeeInGeorgia]

The only unsound ness is from trying to hide yourself for so long.

[sometimes_miss]

Are Crossdressers Disproportionately of Unsound Mental Health?
There would certainly be a valid argument that crossdressing alone, could catagorize us as such. After all, something in our minds triggered the desire to 'buck the norm' to such a degree that so many women lose any intimate romantic interest in us. While many here would suppose that our behavior is simply just another variant of the broad spectrum of sexuality, I'd hypothesize that there is one or more events, either genetic or socializing, that nudged us in the direction we eventually went. Add to that, the fundamental urge we often have to so something to ourselves that can have such negative results on our livestyles, and yes, you can make a very good case that we here are all, basically a little bit, or even a whole lot, nuts!

[LeaP]

... We are a normal part of the human gender spectrum.

That assertion runs counter to the dogmas of US psychiatrists as recently as the early 1990s — and even to the ideas of a few rear-guard psychiatrists today. Regarding the latter, there is a group named the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) that is well-funded and a hotbed of “professionals� who have not budged from the idea that transgender people have mental and other medical disorders. The American Psychiatric Association, a much more credible source of information, recently disavowed that notion (their updated Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, DSM5, will officially become available in May 2013); but to understand WPATH and its intransigence ...

If you are going to make sweeping assertions, you should know what you are talking about.

From the WPATH SOC V7 itself, page 4:


"Being Transsexual, Transgender, or Gender Nonconforming Is a Matter of Diversity, Not Pathology"

"WPATH released a statement in May 2010 urging the de-psychopathologization of gender nonconformity worldwide (WPATH Board of Directors, 2010). This statement noted that “the expression of gender characteristics, including identities, that are not stereotypically associated with one’s assigned sex at birth is a common and culturally-diverse human phenomenon [that] should not be judged as inherently pathological or negative.�

The APA owns the DSM and is responsible for both the initial and ongoing pathologizing of transsexuality, gender variance, gender nonconforming behavior, dysphoria, etc. (Look to the various versions over the years.) The upcoming revision you reference primarily changes the name and category of the GID diagnosis, not its substance. While the revision thankfully removes the diagnosis from the sexual disorders and paraphilias category, the fact that the diagnosis is still in the DSM leaves the pathologization as it was. The DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of MENTAL DISORDERS. Further, WHETHER it should be removed entirely is the subject of ongoing debate in the transsexual community because of insurance coverage concerns.

The GID diagnosis is used principally for transsexualism and the changes primarily benefit transsexuals. This is by way of lowering stigma attached to the diagnosis' name, however, and does not mean it is not pathologized. You are confusing the two, as do most media reports.

The old Transvestic Fetishism is now Transvestic Disorder. It IS in the sexual disorders and paraphilias section, and is the more likely diagnosis for most other gender nonconforming and gender variant people, including the crossdressers who are the subject of your OP. Some mental health practictioners who subscribe to the notion of autogynephilia may code transsexual patients using this diagnosis, however.

[mikiSJ]

...CD's as all people run the gambit of mental health and other issues.

That statement is no less appropriate here as compared to any other segment of society.

I am highly educated, intelligent, have no neurosis, I am not a sociapath or pyschopath. I enjoy baseball, basketball and going to the San Francisco and San Jose art museums. I do manly things and I do girly things. In the very broad spectrum of human sexuality, I AND MOST OF US HERE, are comfortably normal.

[Bonnie Lawrence]

I will say this, CD's as all people run the gambit of mental health and other issues.

I agree with ArleneRaquel: the CD population experiences all the same emotional and mental health issues that the general population does. There have been some studies that indicate that CD/TG people (along with L & G's) tend to experience depression and anxiety somewhat more. This is a result of the emotional toll taken from hiding our trueselves from an unaccepting society all our lives. The same studies also show that LGT folks are more likely to have suicidal thoughts and to self-medicate with alcohol/drugs. However, I haven't seen any data that indicate CD/TG people have higher rates of severe mental illness (e.g., bipolor, schizophrenia, personality disorders, etc.).

[Frédérique]

Are Crossdressers Disproportionately of Unsound Mental Health?

In order to properly answer your question, we need to have three discussions – one about the word “unsound,� one about what the word “health� constitutes, and one about the term “disproportionately.� I think all three topics are subjective, don’t you? I mean, from MY point of view, I’m not suffering from unsound mental health, but the person across the street probably thinks I’m mentally ill. If you don’t crossdress, you obviously cannot grasp the concept of WHY someone would wish to engage in such a deviant endeavor – such a person thinks THEY are mentally sound, yet their lack of understanding (or compassion) speaks otherwise. Again, from my point of view, the person who does not crossdress is mentally ill – can you see what I mean by subjective? It all boils down to whether or not you feel crossdressing is crazy, I suppose. As for disproportion, I’m not a student of statistics. Facts, much like people, can be bent. I’m happy in my own little world, thank you...
:straightface:

BTW, do you mean ALL crossdressers are of unsound mental health, or just MtF crossdressers? :hmph:

[Tracii G]

Quoting the Washington Post? Well there you go you think main stream media is a good source? No IMO.
Coming here will give you a truer picture than the media outlets.
Why do you think they even included the part about the transgender "call girl"? You may ask why did they do that? To color the the scope of the article and paint us as sexual deviants.
It makes me furious to see articles like that when the person that wrote it has no idea what they are talking about.
I'm a free thinker and make up my own mind. I don't feel the need to label myself or others.
Sure there are nut jobs in every gender why say all CD's are mentally off anymore than anyone else?

[flatlander_48]

Left to our own devices, no, I don't believe that we are any more or less prone to have mental issues. However, the problem may be when we try to fit in with the rest of the world. In many cases, we cannot afford to be out so we suppress who we really are and that's where the trouble starts. In order for us to fit in, we often have to be someone else. It is extremely difficult to try to reconcile who you are with who you need to be.

[LaraPeterson]

During my lifetime, I have encountered two psychologists, both in an academic setting. I have studied that community for years. As far as I'm concerned, they are all a bunch of hacks. What I mean is this: the Freudian standard for psychoanalytic theory is based purely on empirical discovery and not on any science. You will never hear an analyst say much more than "I think" because they are taught there are no standards. Everything is subjective.

Consequently, to say that CD's or any other defined group is of unsound mental health, you must make a subjective analysis of the presenting "problem." I have news for you, I don't have a problem. Neither do you.

[Angela Campbell]

Perhaps it is less of a health / mental disorder than a social disorder?

I do not like asparagus ....some people who love it may wonder what is wrong with me.

[kimdl93]

That's not a question you can answer based on a highly selective sample. How encompassing is the term 'unsound'. does this mean a clinical diagnosis or something less definitive. Even the term 'disproportionate' would require some way of objectively quantifying the proportions of soundness in the general and non-TG populations.

My guess is that those TGs diagnosed with mental illnesses may be over represented in the media because they're easier to identify and more sensational subjects....such as the Staci Daniel illustration. Her life tells us very little about the general TG population...many of whom are far healthier, more discreet and less interesting to the media.

[Leah Lynn]

Quoting the Washington Post? Well there you go you think main stream media is a good source? No IMO.
Coming here will give you a truer picture than the media outlets.
Why do you think they even included the part about the transgender "call girl"? You may ask why did they do that? To color the the scope of the article and paint us as sexual deviants.
It makes me furious to see articles like that when the person that wrote it has no idea what they are talking about.
Myself I'm a conservative, 2nd Amendment advocate and a Christian how odd is that for a crossdresser?
I'm a free thinker and make up my own mind. I don't feel the need to label myself or others.
Sure there are nut jobs in every gender why say all CD's are mentally off anymore than anyone else?

The press is in business to sell papers. Mentioning the "call girl" sells. Few papers today rise above the level of "tabloid journalism". The Post does not. Evidently, I'm as messed up as Tracii; conservative, 2A advocate, Christian. But then who is really qualified to determine what "normal" is?

[Eryn]

"I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested" [Sheldon in The Big Bang Theory]

Mental health is defined primarily by mental health professionals, which is a bit like leaving the fox in charge of the henhouse.

Luckily, we have been able to slip out from under the thumb of those who would define transgenderism itself as a disorder. As far as other mental maladies I believe that the stresses brought on by society's treatment of us might make us more susceptible to things like depression, but TG people who have healthy outlets to express themselves are likely to be less subject to these maladies.

[Lynn Marie]

Are Crossdressers Disproportionately of Unsound Mental Health?

No.

[Karren H]

I'd say they are..... all except me.... I'm the most normal person I know..... if you don't believe that just ask me...

[Angela Campbell]

My invisible friend told me not to listen to people who say I am odd.....She also told me to get us a new dress.

[Marleena]

I would expect it would be similar to the general public.

BUT I found this at your link which will cause some dispute.

QUOTE: Trans or Transgender People: Most commonly used as an umbrella term for individuals whose gender identity and/or expression is sometimes or always different from the gender assigned to them at birth. Transgender people include transsexuals (see below), crossdressers, drag queens and kings, genderqueers, and others who cross traditional gender lines.

[Jamie Ann]

I didn't read anything in your post that attempted to answer the question posed in the title.

An answer would involve the fact that this site began in 1997 when most people, including professionals, thought that being a "transvestite" implied having a mental disorder. Since then, the American Psychiatric Association has changed their judgment on that question; but others have not. I was trying to be even-handed, but I certainly applaud the decision of the American Psychiatric Association that people who are different in gender feelings are still normal. If there are 150 million of us, that is enough to fill most nations with nothing but crossdressers. I think that this is relevant to an answer. People with brown eyes are numerous, and that says something about whether having brown eyes is a normal part of human variation or a disorder (in my IMHO). But I was trying to give others a chance to express their views, apart from what I personally may believe. I am not omniscient and I respect others' views. I still hope that others will respond with their views on the basic question. It is one that affects us all.

[TeresaL]

The OP has incorrectly mixed the rolls of WPATH, APA, and the DSM intent. "Disorders" are found in the DSM which is owned by the American Psychiatric Association.

WPATH is against the "disorder" terminology and is petitioning the American Psychiatric Association to drop it from APA's DSM.

APA is the holder of disorders, and DR. Zucker is the prime motivator behind it and reparative therapy. He is convinced that he can and has cured transgender children. Albeit, he holds a highly controversial position even amongst his peers.

WPATH is primarily concerned with helping transgender folks with their transition. Hence the RLE, hormone, and SRS treatment, which is all meant to help, not pathologize.

LeaP has provided a short snippet which correctly states WPATH's stance. Check it out, hon.

[sterling12]

In the psychiatric trade, there is an often-voiced practicality that says: "People who are considered mentally ill, are usually lacking in Coping Mechanisms." Now, what they mean is basically the ability to "cope" with what the rest of Society is dishing out!

Since most of us who are TG or TS seem to be "coping," I would doubt we qualify as mentally ill. But, there are individuals who do not seem to be able to handle all of that giant boxcar of guilt, manipulation, rejection, and downright antagonism, that other people may try to dump on them. If they accept what others are projecting, it can certainly make them mentally ill!

So your answer is a qualified "yes and no." Most professionals who are working with The Transgendered in these modern times are trying to help those folks and their families to "cope." Past Purveyor's of Their Own Truths have become outmoded. Soon, they will become extinct! Treating us as mentally ill is certainly becoming passé. Who needs to be "treated" is a Repressive Society.

Remember just a few years ago they equated being gay with mental illness. Our being painted with the same brush? "This too will pass away!"

Peace and Love, Joanie

[Jamie Ann]

I would expect it would be similar to the general public.

BUT I found this at your link which will cause some dispute.

QUOTE: Trans or Transgender People: Most commonly used as an umbrella term for individuals whose gender identity and/or expression is sometimes or always different from the gender assigned to them at birth. Transgender people include transsexuals (see below), crossdressers, drag queens and kings, genderqueers, and others who cross traditional gender lines.

What is in dispute? Transgender is a umbrella term that includes many different kinds of crossdressers. I would be grateful if you would respond to what you consider controversial.

Thanks,
Jamie Ann

[Marleena]

What is in dispute? Transgender is a umbrella term that includes many different kinds of crossdressers. I would be grateful if you would respond to what you consider controversial.

Thanks,
Jamie Ann

You've missed the discussions where some crossdressers oppose being labelled as trans anything. They refuse being put under the umbrella.:) I'm going a bit off topic though.

[Jamie Ann]

The OP has incorrectly mixed the rolls of WPATH, APA, and the DSM intent. "Disorders" are found in the DSM which is owned by the American Psychiatric Association.

WPATH is against the "disorder" terminology and is petitioning the American Psychiatric Association to drop it from APA's DSM.

WPATH is primarily concerned with helping transgender folks with their transition. Hence the RLE, hormone, and SRS treatment, which is all meant to help, not pathologize.

LeaP has provided a short snippet which correctly states WPATH's stance. Check it out, hon.

Male to Female Crossdressing is a forum potentially relevant to 6.2 million men in the US alone who express feminine feeling through clothing. Not all of them are seeking transition. In fact, probably 98 percent are not. Even among those who are seeking that, the Benjamin standards have been challenged as a device for rich doctors to get richer by insisting that a lot of expensive counseling is required before they do what they want to do (which many have already known for years). WPATH clearly has some monetary interests. Moreover, they have been disavowed by more credible organizations. What IS the correct WPATH stance? If you would explain it, then I would be grateful.

[Jamie Ann]

You've missed the discussions where some crossdressers oppose being labelled as trans anything. They refuse being put under the umbrella.:) I'm going a bit off topic though.

I have not missed them. Not all crossdressers are transgender. I am well aware of that. The fact remains that many people see "crossdressing" as synonymous with "mental disorder." Is that correct, or is it not? Are those who resist being labeled (such as genderqueer teenagers) escaping the labeling problem, or are they not? Thanks for your comment.

[Marleena]

I have not missed them. Not all crossdressers are transgender. I am well aware of that. The fact remains that many people see "crossdressing" as synonymous with "mental disorder." Is that correct, or is it not? Are those who resist being labeled (such as genderqueer teenagers) escaping the labeling problem, or are they not? Thanks for your comment.

The general public may see it as a disorder but that's their problem and incorrect thinking. Any therapist will tell a CDer they are normal. Going to a therapist for CDing is not reqired and a waste of money. It is only necessary if the Cding is causing one extreme stress or discomfort. Times have changed and Cding is considered normal for one engaging in such activities.

[NathalieX66]

I'm sure being trans exacerbates other mental issues in a medical/psychological (co-morbid) way, but I do not believe it is a "source" of mental issues.

As far as umbrella terms, I do believe non-transsexuals are, or can be labeled as transgender. Why?.....because transsexuals are often (and primarily) "cisgender". They just happen to have a body that does not align with their brain. the rest of us morph between gender roles, making us gender fluid in many ways.

[Jamie001]

I believe that many crossdressers that do not accept themselves and choose to remain in the closet are more susceptible to mental illness such as depression. After accepting yourself and coming out of the closet, the depression improves or is eliminated.

[TeresaL]

What IS the correct WPATH stance? If you would explain it, then I would be grateful.

Standards Of Care for recommended treatment of GID in transsexuals is the primary function of WPATH.
Excerpt from SOC. "The overall goal of the SOC is to provide clinical guidance for health professionals to assist transsexual, transgender, and gender nonconforming people with safe and effective pathways to achieving lasting personal comfort with their gendered selves, in order to maximize their overall health, psychological well-being, and self-fulfillment. This assistance may include primary care, gynecologic and urologic care, reproductive options, voice and communication therapy, mental health services (e.g., assessment, counseling, psychotherapy), and hormonal and surgical treatments. While this is primarily a document for health professionals, the SOC may also be used by individuals, their families, and social institutions to understand how they can assist with promoting optimal health for members of this diverse population."
------
"WPATH Vision Statement
The vision of WPATH is to bring together diverse professionals dedicated to developing best practices and supportive policies worldwide that promote health, research, education, respect, dignity, and equality for transgender, transsexual, and gender-variant people in all cultural settings.
See:
http://www.wpath.org/index.cfm
----
Whilst the TG (transgender) umbrella is indeed broad, the WPATH speaks more about the TS (transexual) side. Crossdressers do not need the standards of care since CD's (crossdressers) aren't transitioning. As it was or has been said before, crossdressers don't need treatment unless they want therapy for depression or marital issues.

[ReineD]

Since then, the American Psychiatric Association has changed their judgment on that question; but others have not. I was trying to be even-handed, but I certainly applaud the decision of the American Psychiatric Association that people who are different in gender feelings are still normal.

You have it reversed. I suggest you focus on Lea's post #7. Also, have a look at the WPATH reaction to the proposed changes in the DSM V (http://www.wpath.org/documents/WPATH%20Reaction%20to%20the%20proposed%20DSM%20-%20Final.pdf). See page 3, under "Points of Critique"


The discussion whether a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder or Gender Incongruence should be included in the DSM or not is not addressed on the APA web site with the proposed revision and its rationale. One of the major arguments put forth by consumer groups for removal of the diagnosis, is that it is not a mental disease or disorder, and that classifying gender variance as such perpetuates stigma attached to gender nonconformity. The WPATH Consensus Group believes that gender variance is not in and of itself pathological and that having a cross- or transgender identity does not constitute a psychiatric disorder (Knudson, DeCuypere, & Bockting, in press).



If there are 150 million of us, that is enough to fill most nations with nothing but crossdressers.

To put this in perspective, 150 million is 2% trans population worldwide. This means 20 boys in a high school of 2,000 students, assuming an equal distribution of male/female. Or, if Georgia Dome in Atlanta were filled to capacity (71,000), there would be 700 transpersons again assuming an equal gender split in the stadium.

Also, you mention in your thread starter the status of transgenders in India. It is not significantly different there, than here, in terms of active groups who fight for a stop to discrimination. India TGs were counted in the national census for the first time in 2011 (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/census-2011-transgenders-prepare-to-be-counted-for-first-time-78100). There are half a million compared to a total population of one billion. This is significantly less than 1%. Things are beginning to change in India as they are here, but the Hijras are still shunned and still suffer discrimination, according to the census article that I link to, and this one as well:

http://akiliinitiative.org/trailblazing-initiatives-in-india-for-transgendered-populations/

Just wanted to get some facts straight.

To give my opinion on your question, I'd guess that mental illness (excluding depression) is equal among the TG and non-TG population. Depression may be higher in the TG population, which I would expect when the majority of TGs are discriminated against.

[AllyCDTV]

There is no accurate data available to serve as a basis for any conclusion. This makes it impossible to answer your question.

[LeaP]

... the Benjamin standards have been challenged as a device for rich doctors to get richer by insisting that a lot of expensive counseling is required before they do what they want to do (which many have already known for years). WPATH clearly has some monetary interests. Moreover, they have been disavowed by more credible organizations. What IS the correct WPATH stance? If you would explain it, then I would be grateful.

If you would read responses, I would be grateful. This isn't the first thread in which there have been responses to your comments on WPATH.

The comment on money does have some validity, but you have re-cast it from a complaint about PATIENTS needing resources to "doctors" seeking riches. The patient complaint primarily relates to the need for a period of therapeutic evaluation before approving hormones (and further treatments). It has been addressed in several ways, including recognizing exceptions to the rule (e.g., cases of self-medication), as well as shortening the evaluation period. Once again, however, you have confused the issue vis-a-vis WPATH vs the APA. NOTHING the APA has put out to-date changes anything in THIS regard, as the APA has yet to issue any treatment standards or practice guidelines. Moreover, the APA has claimed they (psychiatrists specifically, that is ... i.e., "doctors") should be the only ones with oversight over treatment with hormones! See the APA report on treating GID for specifics. Finally, the majority of gender therapists in the US, as far as I'm aware, are psychologists and social workers, not physicians. Who, by the way charge LESS, on average, than psychiatrists.

We'll see what treatment recommendations eventually emerge from the APA, but if you think they are going to involve less therapy and less cost, I have a bridge to sell you.

If you want to go to the topic of credibility, I suggest looking into controversies re: Drs. Zucker (mentioned above) and Blanchard. Going back a bit more, Dr. John Money (ironic name, eh?). Within psychiatry itself, concerns have been expressed about the lack of training in therapy! (ANY kind of therapy.) The fear is that psychiatry is becoming the province of doctors who treat with pharmaceuticals only and who churn patients for reimbursement. For a mass-market view of this, see Dr. Keith Ablow's comments on this topic. (Ablow is a psychiatrist who trained at Johns Hopkins) Finally, have a look at the history of the major medical school and hospital-based gender clinics. I'm not going to attempt to recap it here, but to say that there are implications for the credibility of psychiatry on the topic is the mildest thing I can state.

[Beverley Sims]

The only crazies here are the ones who think they are normal.
Like me. :)
It is interesting that I scrolled past the serious discussion that is also included here.
Merry Christmas and happy holidays to you all.

[Kate Simmons]

Call it what you will Hon but it is really all about energy balance. When too many "big boys" (politicians, generals, etc.) play a lot in the "big boy" sandbox, there is a disproportionate amount of male energy being spread around which unbalances the system. The solution to this is people like us who not only release male but more so female energy which brings balance back to the human equation, thereby stabilizing things so as to keep going. Face it, if we had let them play unrestricted, we would have been "toast" long ago. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.:battingeyelashes::)

[famousunknown]

Times have changed and Cding is considered normal for one engaging in such activities.

WOW, REALLY? Are you speaking for yourself or for everyone?

[Marleena]

WOW, REALLY? Are you speaking for yourself or for everyone?

Go talk to any therapist...

[Loni]

i am not a Dr. nor do i play one on the tube, and i did not sleep in a holiday inn last night.

but i would say a large number of trans-persons suffer depression. but not from something being wrong. but due to not being allowed to just be themselves.

[Rhonda Darling]

WOW! A few thoughts are going to escape my clearly psycho mind and land on this page:

1) My first thought was to write something along the lines of: "Disproportionately of Unsound Mental Health? If you ask me that again, I'll have to kill you." But on reflection (hmmmm, reflection, that's a rather sane thing to do), in light of last week's mass shooting at the Sandy Hook ES, . . . well, you get it --- bad taste and all that.

2) I, like many, thought for years that I was the only one, or that it was just me and Rene Richards. Or me, Rene, Flip Wilson, Milton Berle, the cast of LA CAGE AUX FOLLE, Wesley Snipes, Patrick Swayze, and John Leguizamo (all in drag in "To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything! Julie Newmar"), and a bunch of others. I agree with the above comments that generally recognize that the mental health profession makes decisions about what is a mental illness and what isn't by having committee's vote on diagnostic criteria. Remember, not too long ago, gay and lesbian were considered to be mental illnesses. In some countries you'd be put to death for being G or L. T's would likely be stoned to death. Intolerance is the disease.

3) Your credibility was immediately suspect when you gave credence to the Washington Post and implied that they would do a thoroughly researched story that is fair and balanced on the topic of us. That, as they say, ain't happenin'.

4) Take any recognizable segment of society and you'll find a distribution of the members who have varying degrees of mental illness, and unless the segment chosen is itself a concentration of mental disease (e.g., psychopaths), you'll likely find a distribution that is pretty much the same as other segments of society.

Rhonda

[Jamie Ann]

If you are going to make sweeping assertions, you should know what you are talking about.

From the WPATH SOC V7 itself, page 4:


"Being Transsexual, Transgender, or Gender Nonconforming Is a Matter of Diversity, Not Pathology"

"WPATH released a statement in May 2010 urging the de-psychopathologization of gender nonconformity worldwide (WPATH Board of Directors, 2010). This statement noted that “the expression of gender characteristics, including identities, that are not stereotypically associated with one’s assigned sex at birth is a common and culturally-diverse human phenomenon [that] should not be judged as inherently pathological or negative.�

...

The upcoming revision you reference primarily changes the name and category of the GID diagnosis, not its substance. While the revision thankfully removes the diagnosis from the sexual disorders and paraphilias category, the fact that the diagnosis is still in the DSM leaves the pathologization as it was.

Thanks for the information — I was not aware of the 2010 statement changing the official view on transgender and whether or not it is a disorder. Both the APA and WPATH did define transgender as a mental illness for several decades. Transgender people lobbied against both groups for many years, arguing that transgender persons have better insights into transgender mental health than do doctors, who are just as prone as most others out there in society to buy into cultural stereotypes about what variations are to be classified as sicknesses and which are merely human diversity.

One minor corrections to your post is that the DSM-5 replaces GID with “gender dysphoria� and defines the latter as sadness — it is the antonym of euphoria, the latter understood as happiness or joy. GID is gone. Thus, the changes are not superficial; they are more than just a new vocabulary with no change in real meaning.

I am glad that real transgender people won out over both the APA and WPATH. Again, thanks for the information.

[famousunknown]

Go talk to any therapist...

I don't need to talk a therapist. And what does that have to do with what the majority of society thinks anyway?
I just asked you a question, (which you didn't answer).
Cd-ing is definitely not considered normal.

[Jamie Ann]

To put this in perspective, 150 million is 2% trans population worldwide. This means 20 boys in a high school of 2,000 students, assuming an equal distribution of male/female. Or, if Georgia Dome in Atlanta were filled to capacity (71,000), there would be 700 transpersons again assuming an equal gender split in the stadium.

Also, you mention in your thread starter the status of transgenders in India. It is not significantly different there, than here, in terms of active groups who fight for a stop to discrimination. India TGs were counted in the national census for the first time in 2011. There are half a million compared to a total population of one billion. This is significantly less than 1%. Things are beginning to change in India as they are here, but the Hijras are still shunned and still suffer discrimination ...

Congratulations on knowing that 150 million is roughly 2% of the world's population, or roughly 4% of the world's male population. By coincidence, some estimates are that about 4% of men engage in some degree of crossdressing.

Regarding India's Census of Population, it you look at the last sentence quoted above, you will see one of the two reasons why 1% is an under-estimate of the true prevalence. On sensitive issues of any kind, some people do not give accurate information. In a Census they are not fully anonymous — or may worry that they’re not, since they are providing identifying information. The other reason is that “underdressing� and transvestic fetishism would not be counted in the Census. To what extent they are transgender phenomena is debatable (they are crossdressing, but their motivation might or might not be a transgender identity). India is interested, for social policy reasons, primarily in how many transsexuals are part of their population; for many purposes, we would be interested in crossdressers of other kinds as well. The 1% probably exceeds the percentage of transsexuals, but it surely falls short of the percentage of all crossdressers.

[Julie Gaum]

Most posters seem to agree that we are as normal as any cross-section of the community. My only questions involve 1) Statement that there are 150 million CDs of various kinds in the world. If true I would appreciate knowing the source of these stats as I have a hard time just estimating how many there are in the U.S. give or take a few million and 2) If there are disproportionate high numbers in certain countries, which might be true, I haven't come across any studies that may provide a clue culture-wise for their reasons. If someone has that information kindly divulge where we can find it. In the meantime it merely muddies the waters.
Personally I find CDs on this forum to be better informed with a higher intelligence level (Though I may often disagree with a comment)
than the general public. As an aside I'm an awful speller and do wish some posters would use either spell check or a dictionary as I try to do.
To conclude I came across an ad by a corporation that used the term "New Normal". That's what we are: the new normal.
Julie

[Marleena]

I don't need to talk a therapist. And what does that have to do with what the majority of society thinks anyway?
I just asked you a question, (which you didn't answer).
.

I said:Times have changed and Cding is considered normal for one engaging in such activities.
Then you asked: WOW, REALLY? Are you speaking for yourself or for everyone?

So you say: Cd-ing is definitely not considered normal

So my answer again... ask any therapist, it is normal!!

[Barbara Ella]

The posed question has a simple answer. No, and most likely no data exists either way.

Lots of too much discussion on elements not directly posed in the original question. Too much extraneous information in the rest of the post. Mumbai paragraph irrelevant. Washington Post is a juvenile reference that will never be accepted as a thoroughly researching peer reviewed source, so it can be ignored totally except for general public consumption, and we all know what that is worth. The discussion of K street, and one individual serves to add nothing to the original question.

the last paragraph mentions what happens when people encounter poorly functioning transgenders. this presupposes that these individuals make up a larger than normal population, which is what the original question was posing. talk about posing a situation that presupposes an answer, but really only points out a cause for mental discomfort. what happens when people encounter a poorly functioning lawyer, or doctor, or Professor, or auto mechanic. this in no way implies a greater percentage of mental illness in these situations.

The answer is no.

Barbara

[LeaP]

Thanks for the information — I was not aware of the 2010 statement changing the official view on transgender and whether or not it is a disorder. Both the APA and WPATH did define transgender as a mental illness for several decades. Transgender people lobbied against both groups for many years, arguing that transgender persons have better insights into transgender mental health than do doctors, who are just as prone as most others out there in society to buy into cultural stereotypes about what variations are to be classified as sicknesses and which are merely human diversity.

One minor corrections to your post is that the DSM-5 replaces GID with “gender dysphoria” and defines the latter as sadness — it is the antonym of euphoria, the latter understood as happiness or joy. GID is gone. Thus, the changes are not superficial; they are more than just a new vocabulary with no change in real meaning.

I am glad that real transgender people won out over both the APA and WPATH. Again, thanks for the information.

It wasn't a recent change (WPATH position). It is important to note, however, that the scientific consensus on the nature of gender, gender etiology and gender issues has been evolving for many years. You are presenting a picture of intransigence that seriously distorts what has been a raging debate

Evaluation of dysphoria was critical to a GID diagnosis under the DSM 4. There's NOTHING new about gender dysphoria in relation to the various gender-related diagnoses over the several version of the DSM. For a good recap see:

http://www.cpath.ca/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/COHEN-KETTENIS.DSM_.pdf

The DSM does not define dysphoria per se, and certainly not as "sadness". I have my own definition. It is hell on earth. Sadness doesn't touch even the shallowest aspects of it.

Finally, I didn't say the changes were superficial. I said the name and category changes were less stigmatizing. This in response to your assertion that the diagnosis was depathologized, which simply is inaccurate. There are other refinements in the diagnostic criteria, but they are clearly a continuation of the refinements of past versions, continue much of the same language, and are viewed by the profession and the authors in that way. The entire effort was a revision effort, not one to create a new diagnosis.

[suchacutie]

and just how many angels do dance on the head of a pin?

just sayin.

[Jamie Ann]

It wasn't a recent change (WPATH position). It is important to note, however, that the scientific consensus on the nature of gender, gender etiology and gender issues has been evolving for many years. You are presenting a picture of intransigence that seriously distorts what has been a raging debate

Evaluation of dysphoria was critical to a GID diagnosis under the DSM 4. There's NOTHING new about gender dysphoria in relation to the various gender-related diagnoses over the several version of the DSM.

I don’t know why you are so hostile. My position is simply that transgender persons took issue with the professional organizations 40 years ago, after the professional organizations capitulated to the gay community and decided that sexual orientation was human variability rather than a bad choice or mental illness. Transgender persons said, in effect, “Then why is transgender feeling just a bad choice or mental illness?� There have always been efforts by both the APA and WPATH to discredit the other. In real time (not just when information was published), I think that APA was slightly ahead of WPATH (2010 is nowhere near when the behind-the-scenes debates took place), but the important point is that both organizations eventually decided that transgender persons might have a better understanding of transgender mental dynamics than the professionals. Yes, we can be freaked-out by widespread prejudice and discrimination. If someone who is highly qualified loses a job, they understandably can feel sad or even depressed. The changes that must occur are in Western culture, not in transgender persons. Do you or do you not disagree with that?

[ReineD]

Congratulations on ...

Doing the math is not at issue.

But, saying there are enough crossdressers to fill most nations gives the impression there are more than the actual 2%-5% of the population. I just think it is helpful to put things in context.

I'm not sure why you mentioned the numbers, but if your point was to demonstrate that a high enough number of transgenders will cause the medical/psychiatric community to depathologize the condition and remove it from the DSM, it is not numbers that determine inclusion in the DSM. I dare say there are more people who suffer from depression, anxiety, and ADHD than there are TGs. The continued debate, as Lea stated, is due to there having been a lack of scientific consensus about the nature of transsexuality in the relatively short time since it began to be better understood.


Yes, we can be freaked-out by widespread prejudice and discrimination. If someone who is highly qualified loses a job, they understandably can feel sad or even depressed. The changes that must occur are in Western culture, not in transgender persons. Do you or do you not disagree with that?

Yes, societies in all cultures (not just Western) need to understand that there are a small number of people whose genders are not congruent with their bodies, and further this is not pathological nor is it a moral weakness. I don't think anyone here will disagree. And I agree that the movement forward to increase awareness to this issue is painfully slow. But, there are members in this forum who have transitioned in place without losing their jobs, which would have been unheard of a generation ago.

I do not foresee a time though, when crossdressers or the gender non-conforming will be embraced in society even if they are tolerated, excepting employers and many spouses. Although I may be wrong, most employers/teachers/students expect to see an individual as either male or female, and they don't understand individuals who wish to switch back and forth or who present a mixture of both gender cues.

Still, in addition to the advocacy groups that continue to push for recognition of sexual and gender diversity, I'd like to see our schools include a more comprehensive instruction in our curriculums. If kids learn at an early age that it's OK to not be cis/hetero-normative, things can only continue to improve in the future ... if we can also remove a religious objection to gender and sexual diversity, in Western culture and worldwide.

[jsunic_1978]

I think we all think way too much about everything peroid! Just dress as we wish. The more we do what we want to do and as long as we are not harming anyone, peoplre just like happy people. plain n simple.

[LeaP]

I don’t know why you are so hostile. My position is simply that transgender persons took issue with the professional organizations 40 years ago, after the professional organizations capitulated to the gay community and decided that sexual orientation was human variability rather than a bad choice or mental illness. Transgender persons said, in effect, “Then why is transgender feeling just a bad choice or mental illness?� There have always been efforts by both the APA and WPATH to discredit the other. In real time (not just when information was published), I think that APA was slightly ahead of WPATH (2010 is nowhere near when the behind-the-scenes debates took place), but the important point is that both organizations eventually decided that transgender persons might have a better understanding of transgender mental dynamics than the professionals. Yes, we can be freaked-out by widespread prejudice and discrimination. If someone who is highly qualified loses a job, they understandably can feel sad or even depressed. The changes that must occur are in Western culture, not in transgender persons. Do you or do you not disagree with that?

Facts are stubborn things. Here they are (again).

The various gender-related diagnoses are still pathologized. All are in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Some are in the sexual disorders and paraphilias section, others not (we can't be 100% of final categorization until release, though the new edition is supposed to have gone to press by now.

The "new" Gender Dysphoria" diagnosis, which is substantially similar to the GID diagnosis of the current edition, is meant for transsexualism primarily, by way of its diagnostic criteria, and because it is the latest incarnation of the transsexualism diagnosis of earlier editions of the DSM. It has little to do with "transgender" in the broader sense.

Practitioners and researchers are split on questions of etiology and on normalcy. Some of the ongoing dispute is reflected in the upcoming DSM revision. The categorization of the Gender Gysphoria diagnosis (transsexuals) removes some stigma and the "Transvestic Fetishism," now "Transvestic Disorder" diagnosis (crossdressers) is made worse.

In fact, it's interesting that the latter has not been discussed here, particularly as much of the discussion has been around the concept of disorder. One may argue whether "transvestic fetishism" or "transvestic disorder" is worse, but there is no argument whatsoever that it is its a disorder, by dint of its name alone. Moreover, it is in the paraphilias section of the DSM. As much as anything else, this Reflects Ray Blanchard's view of the world. He chaired the paraphilias working group, and clearly does not regard anything related to gender variance as normal.

I'll repeat what I said in my response to some of your comments in another thread. I see no evidence whatsoever that the WPATH SOC has been "disavowed." It is cited repeatedly in the APA's task force report on the treatment of gender identity disorder. WPATH is not technically a mental health professionals organization, though they predominate. There are plenty of psychiatrists who belong to both WPATH and the APA. WPATH exists for one primary reason – because at the time of its creation there were no standards. The APA has never issued any practice guidelines (its rough equivalent of the WPATH SOC), or training education, and experience recommendations for treating gender. There was recognition within the APA (mentioned in the task force report itself) that the organization had made things worse for gender variant people as a result.

I see no evidence that mental health professionals have suddenly decided that gender variant and transsexual people know more or better than they do, whether on "mental dynamics" (which you'll have to define) or on anything else. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. I would refer again to my comments on the renaming of the transvestic fetishism diagnosis and categorization, above. And again, all of the things we've been discussing are diagnoses of mental disorders - officially - published, promulgated, reviewed, voted, and supported by psychiatry's governing body in the US. Regardless of how individual practitioners choose to look at things on their own.

That rather nails the point vis-Ã*-vis how gender variant and transsexual people view normalcy versus what the psychiatric profession officially regards as disordered. Further, the APA intends to not only maintain its diagnoses in the DSM but has recommended (via the task force report) of going on to develop practice guidelines (SOC's) as well as bring some kinds of treatment under the direction of a psychiatrist's care only. This is not the world envisioned by some "transgender" activists.

Your comment on job loss and sadness appears (I'm really not quite sure here) to have something to do with how you view dysphoria. If so, you're grossly mischaracterizing what dysphoria is all about. Kelly Jameson recently posted a response in another thread in the transsexual forum that recaps it nicely:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?186730-Am-I-This-Or-Am-I-That-(Kinda-Long)&p=3055941&viewfull=1#post3055941

So if you're suggesting in your final question that the resolution to dysphoria lies in changing Western culture, I disagree. Acceptance is important, of course. But that has precisely nothing to do with gender dysphoria. On the basic question posed by your OP, I do think that cross-dressers, gender variant, and transsexual people suffer higher rates of emotional and mental problems. I do not think this is because the conditions or behaviors are necessarily intrinsically disordered, but are due to conflicts set in motion as a result. There is a cultural aspect to that, but it is not a complete picture.

[famousunknown]

So my answer again... ask any therapist, it is normal!!

Therapists don't speak for the majority of society. No, it's NOT normal.

[Marleena]

Therapists don't speak for the majority of society. No, it's NOT normal.

It is normal... sorry. There are transgender people out there and has been since the beginning of time. The medical community is aware of it now and any Cder going to a therapist will be told it is their normal and nothing to worry about. Society itself has problems seeing this as normal behavior.

What more can I say?? My first reply was ask any therapist and it still is the correct one. I've seen lots of Cders post here saying they went to a therapist and was told there is nothing wrong with them, just other people accepting it.

[famousunknown]

It is normal... sorry. There are transgender people out there and has been since the beginning of time. The medical community is aware of it now and any Cder going to a therapist will be told it is their normal and nothing to worry about. Society itself has problems seeing this as normal behavior.

What more can I say?? My first reply was ask any therapist and it still is the correct one. I've seen lots of Cders post here saying they went to a therapist and was told there is nothing wrong with them, just other people accepting it.

Twist it however you want. It's considered not normal in today's society.

[Marleena]

Twist it however you want. It's considered not normal in today's society.

I'm not twisting it but I give up! We are all freaks then.

[famousunknown]

I'm not twisting it but I give up! We are all freaks then.

Unfortunately, that's pretty much what society is thinking.

[Vicki Wa]

Twist it however you want. It's considered not normal in today's society.

That depends on the definition of "society". Much older cultures, especially some of the Polynesian cultures, have no issue and actually embrace transgendered people. The Fa'afafine are accepted and loved in the Samoan culture.

Rather than try to defend the Western culture that has been squeezed into a conformist society based on governmental control, maybe we should be pushing for change. The medical community and therapists have come to recognise that there is more to the human being than just being the male or female described in Europena doctrine from the last 1000 years... Historically there are so many valuable people who have not met the "accepted norm" of their day, but they didn't change themselves.

It is the narrow minded who don't want change - because they are afraid. More and more there are states that have laws preventing any form of discrimination against anyone expressing their sexual preference or freedom of fashion choice. We are the ones who have to show it is not abnormal - it is just us - a person with intelligence, feelings, and the ability to advance society to a better place. The more people say it is not normal and do NOT have people disagree with them - the longer some people will keep thinking it.

It is normal. Say it and tell it to everyone who says it isn't. Be the change.

[LeaP]

It is normal... sorry. There are transgender people out there and has been since the beginning of time. The medical community is aware of it now and any Cder going to a therapist will be told it is their normal and nothing to worry about. Society itself has problems seeing this as normal behavior.

We are mixing concepts. Cross-gendered behaviors are not normal by definition because the overwhelming majority of the population does not engage in them and does not accept them. I.e., it is outside of social norms.

That does not mean it is pathological, however. It is within the range of normal human variation, and I would say biological variation specifically (as I believe it to be), at least for transsexuals and perhaps most gender variant people.

Even if one were to take the view that "simple" crossdressing behavior had no biological basis, had roots in psychological, emotional, or developmental issues, however, and therefore pathological besides abnormal in the strictly social sense, one wonders at the social utility of the condemnation. The worst one can say is that it's idiosyncratic. It's harmless.

[Marleena]

Thanks, I'm done with this thread. :)

[famousunknown]

Thanks, I'm done with this thread. :)

You just want somone to tell you that you're normal. I'm sure that won't be that hard to find here.

[TeresaL]

In regards to transgender (umbrella defin) issues, gender counselors are indeed telling us that there is nothing wrong with us that is treatable. They will help us however, through our marital issues if we want. If our spouse is distressed upon finding out about our TG proclivity, then counseling could help to save our marriage. If for nothing else, having an impartial person as an ally can sometimes help, if both spouses are open to accepting each other.

While we may be normal, as a person who has diabetes, both issues can and have been claimed to be a disorder. I think we can agree that we are normal, but society just doesn't get it. OTOH. Who is or what is normal. LOL

In my own situation, I desired saving my marriage, and did submit to marital therapy for my spouse's sake because she was distressed due to my being TG. She is no longer distressed, we are fairly comfortable with my expressing as Teresa, and my therapist is ready to release me. Again, she, my therapist, has told me that there is nothing wrong with me being TG, and I do not need treatment.

As a matter of fact, cures are not taught in traditional psychology. See APA, American Psychology Association website.
http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.pdf

If you wish to do the research, the clinic I attend is the Veteran's hospital which is nationwide and available to all military veterans. They use WPATH standards and recommendations if transition is requested.
http://www.va.gov/vhapublications/ViewPublication.asp?pub_ID=2416

It has been a very rewarding experience.

-------
Added: In 1990, therapists promised and implemented cures which were empty promises. That curative therapy never did work, and did more harm than good. I verify the in effectiveness as several of those practitioners worked me over to no avail. They had me so stressed out I told them I am quitting forever just to get them off my back. It will never happen again.

[Joann Smith]

" Are Crossdressers Disproportionately of Unsound Mental Health? "

Yeah! .....this is what happens when you lock folks in a closet for a bunch of years ..

[Acastina]

"I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested" [Sheldon in The Big Bang Theory]

Mental health is defined primarily by mental health professionals, which is a bit like leaving the fox in charge of the henhouse.

Those professionals are humans like everyone else, just as prone to personal, family-induced, and culturally encouraged prejudices as others. We hope that their training conditions them to perform their functions in the health system with disregard for such prejudices, but they're only human. I had a therapist once, a TG specialist, who ended up marrying a TG client of hers in hopes of, for lack of a better term, "curing" him so he could be her man. Last I heard, it did not turn out well. She should have known better (two counts: relationship with client and believing the client had finally found "the right woman" who would make it all go away), and they both paid a price. There are also those with professional biases, an urge to prove a pet theory, novel view of the phenomena, or religious beliefs, and those can skew their objectivity as well.


Luckily, we have been able to slip out from under the thumb of those who would define transgenderism itself as a disorder. As far as other mental maladies I believe that the stresses brought on by society's treatment of us might make us more susceptible to things like depression, but TG people who have healthy outlets to express themselves are likely to be less subject to these maladies.

I did a presentation to a university class (Psychology, I think) about 15 years ago, showing slides of me en femme while describing it as objectively as I could. When I finished, a female student immediately suggested that such persons were probably prone to more anxiety and depression than non-TGs, due to societal tolerance issues. Do ya think? She sensed it immediately as a natural result of being compelled to disfavored behaviors. The tricky part is sorting out what is reactive and what might be more endogenous: are some of us depressed because we're TG, or TG and depressed without a causal relationship to each other?

[Jamie Ann]

I largely agree with Dreine in her/his latest post. (That may be a first!) Regarding LeaP’s latest post, I think that there is some hostility that cannot be accounted for by anything I wrote. The American Psychiatric Association and WPATH have long considered crossdressers as persons with mental disorders. Crossdressers and other transgender persons have long considered that stance as total ignorance. There has been on ongoing disagreement. The American Psychiatric Association recently agreed to revise their APA Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-5) to state unequivocally that being transgender is not a mental illness. WPATH put out a statement, which may be more PR than anything substantial, that they think that the transgender feelings are an “illness� should be deemphasized in their public statements. That is a small step in the right direction; but it may have more to do with frictions between them and the American Psychiatric Association than with any real change in how they perceive transgender persons. I welcome constructive comments from LeaP, but she/he needs to understand that those of us who are really concerned about transgender issues do not want to argue trivia; we want to raise issues of some importance and we question whether statements such as hers contribute to our goals. Hostility does not necessarily advance our objectives. LeaP needs to get her act together.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I look at it like this. The transgendered mind and the nontransgendered mind, think of them as shelves and stress as the weighty thing that will be placed ont them throughout their lifespan. With no stress both shelves are empty except the transgendered shelf will always have the added weight of the stress of not feeling right in their own body. That shelf maybe able to carry the weight but it is defiately at a disadvantage to the nontransgendered shelve as the weight of life's stresses are added and subtracted from them.

[andrea lace]

i have just come out and what kept me from expressing myself was society telling me it is not the norm.I have repressed the feelings i have had for a long time and this has only hurt me and the ones closest to me.I now feel i am normal and just different from most but not all

[LeaP]

Hostility does not necessarily advance our objectives. LeaP needs to get her act together.


Your hubris is astonishing. I put facts on the table, you responded with ad-hominems, then accuse ME of hostility!

I can think of a variety of life areas in which I need to get my act together! In this instance, however, the facts amply support what I've stated. If you prefer happy fictions about the APA (including the monumental one that a diagnosis in a manual of mental illness constitutes a statement that the condition is not a mental illness) and in conspiracies regarding WPATH, then have at it. My counters are already here for any to read.

One last before I decamp the thread: Many do not subscribe to the "transgender" notion (beyond its use as a convenient linguistic categorization) or approach to activism. As you present yourself as being versed in things transgender, you doubtless know that the term itself has origins in politics and that a significant faction of transsexuals regards it both as a means of co-opting legitimacy (i.e., for the non-TS) as well as holding back progress on transsexual issues. Your objectives are not necessarily "our" objectives.

[CONSUELO]

First let us remind ourselves that homosexuality was classified as a mental illness until quite recently. Also there is a difference between being transexual or transgendered and suffering from some other mental disorder. The two do not necessarily go together. Finally, psychology is a very imprecise "science". In fact I would argue that it does not even qualify as one because it has developed no predictable theories ( and I mean theories in the scientific sense in that it can predict and explain a large body of knowledge and is capable of being verified by experiment; not hypotheses ). Psychology is a useful study but it cannot link its ideas and hypotheses back to biology and so explain why people behave in a certain way. So, I would not draw many, if any, conclusions from all of this.

[Acastina]

Unfortunately, that's pretty much what society is thinking.

With respect, I might suggest that the location line says volumes here. The "society" of the American South is far from "normal" in my view. The most undereducated, backward, and bigoted demographics in a diverse country that is otherwise pretty much trying to be a modern nation of 310 million people. I'm not saying or implying that Famous fits that description, but a disproportionate number of those around her do, and that's a matter of fact, not opinion, from racism to virulent and extreme religious fundamentalism, with the intolerance that is a prominent feature of both racism and fundamentalism acted out in daily life.

I'm saying her conclusions are probably easy and credible to reach where she lives, but not everywhere. In fact, more so in my part of relatively liberal California than in other parts. I know; I've lived in both kinds of places in this state.