FROM THE BACK OF THE CLOSET: Week 2 Feeling pretty

[Helana]

With some recent threads about non-accepting SOs I was thinking about the fears which hold these women back from contemplating accepting the CD partners. One argument raised was that men are not allowed to feel pretty as this must be an indicator of homosexuality. That is a simplistic understanding of this fear.

So I went out on a limb and tried to think what feeling pretty means to a GG. I welcome any GG comments if you think I am off the mark here.

There are two obvious reasons I can think of for wanting to dress up to feel pretty. One is that it makes you feel better about yourself. The second reason is to get men's attention. It is a wonderful feeling to know others desire you.

When do GGs dress up in pretty/sexy clothes? During teenage years when girls are desperate for boys to notice them, during young womanhood when she is seeking a man to settle down with, and in long term relationships finding the odd occassion for a night out on the town or romantic dinner.

Now looking pretty is an impractical thing. It takes a lot of time, effort and money to sustain. One common complaint of men is that after they marry their wives she stops looking pretty. The nice feminine clothes gather dust in her wardrobe, the hair gets cut into a short manageable bob, makeup gets lesser etc. In other words women no longer feel it necessary to spend time/effort looking pretty because she has her man and she is too busy with her job and family. Plus she may have put on a few pounds and no longer feels that she is pretty.

This is where it begins to get interesting. Beyond the various levels of political correctness in our society, man AND women still possess the general subconscious view that women are sexual beings, that looking pretty/sexy is what women do to get a man, that it is a powerful weapon for the exclusive use of women. Young girls easily fall into this trap of advertising their sexuality. The feeling of being chased, romanced and being desired by men can be intoxicating. Indeed there are some women who are clinically addicted to falling in love - they replace their boyfriends every few months so that they can fall in love over and over again.

What happens when a crossdresser gets dollied up and stares into the mirror. Especially when we are young, we get giddy with excitment by looking and feeling pretty. Being males, this excitement typically gets channeled into sexual energy which is released by masturbation. Well crossdressers are not the only ones to feel giddy, women do too. Since most women these days wear drab clothes during the day, when they have an opportunity to dress up and be romanced or go clubbing they get giddy with excitment too. Dressing up makes women feel different, special too but unlike crossdressing males they don't release this excitment through masturbation!. They go out and find (desirable) male attention, to enjoy feeling wanted by a man and, fingers crossed if everything works out, to be made loved to by a man.

For a GG, I can imagine that getting dressed up and feeling pretty has many memories of fun, hope and excitment that men will flirt with them and romance them and make love to them. So there is a direct connection between feeling pretty = feeling desireable = socializing with men = getting chatted up/romanced = sex.

I think when unaccepting women face the issue that a man wants to dress up and look pretty they feel very threatened that men are experiencing feelings and emotions which are supposed to be solely a woman's preserve, a place no man should enter. She would think about her own experiences and assume that any man who wants to feel pretty must also want to be desired by men. Her negative outlook makes her forget the other reason for feeling pretty, namely to feel good about oneself.

I see this as a key difference between women who are accepting and those who are not. Accepting women understand that men can feel pretty just to feel good and not relate this to them actually wanting male attention. Of course it is true that many CDers do fantasize about being dated and being with a man, but that is all they are - fantasies. If the CDer has no partner or if he has an unaccepting partner then he is much more likely to chase after his fantasy. On the otherhand if the CDer has an accepting partner then any feelings he has of wanting to feel desired are met by his partner which will make him love her even more.

Hope that makes sense.:)

[suzy]

Helana,

Beautifully written.... Makes a lot of sense to me... I'd like my wife to read it!

[BrendaChristine]

And is what makes you feel pretty the same as what makes you LOOK pretty? A very good question. I wish I could be insightful like that.:)

[uknowhoo]

Thank you, thank you, Helana, for this insightful, and beautifully written piece of prose. I'm bookmarking this one to save with "my favorites." What a wonderful post.

Sincerely, Tammi


to MarlaGG below, thank you too for your excellent follow-up. I'm sure many besides myself will find these words to be very effective in explaining themselves and their proclivities to others.

[Tracy Lynn]

On the otherhand if the CDer has an accepting partner then any feelings he has of wanting to feel desired are met by his partner which will make him love her even more.

Hope that makes sense.:)

Makes sense to me. Before my wife knew, I had the fantasies you are speaking of. Now that she knows and accepts me I no longer feel the need to fantasize about that. Its nice to have the one you love accept you for who you are not what you wear.

[Marla GG]

Helana, that was one of the best posts I've ever read. Your analysis makes perfect sense. In the post-feminist world, women aren't supposed to admit that looking pretty is all about seeking male attention. The women's magazines all say we should choose our clothing, makeup and hairstyles to please ourselves, not men. That is all very well and good, but I still don't know any women who bother getting dressed and made up just to sit at home on their own. The whole point of making yourself "attractive" is.....well.....to attract someone!

Therefore, it is only natural for a woman in a relationship with a CD to get confused. If he wants to look pretty en femme, who is he trying to attract? Not his wife -- unless she's a lesbian. Not other men -- unless he's gay. What a lot of women don't realize is that, unlike us, crossdressers can and do dress to attract themselves. The heterosexual crossdresser is a man who has been genetically programmed and socialized to desire women, and when he dresses like one, he sees himself through his male eyes as an object of desire, while at the same time enjoying the feminine experience of being desired in that way. I am not saying that crossdressers don't enjoy being admired by others, but I think that closed circuit of self-attraction is extremely powerful. If women understood this, they might not feel so threatened by their partners wanting to look pretty.

But I think there is something else that makes women unhappy about all of this, even more than the thought that their man might be looking for outside attention, namely.....if he is the pretty one.......then who is going to desire ME? A woman feels pretty when she knows she is wanted by a man, but if her man is acting like a woman, where does that leave her? She doesn't have the crossdresser's ability to look at herself as an object of desire. She needs someone else to complete the circuit. That is why so many women say they don't feel attractive when their husbands are en femme -- because the man they want to attract is not there.

Thanks again for the fabulous post. Your insights are much appreciated.

[Lisa Maren]

Hi Helana

That was a wonderful post! You brought up something I hadn't yet thought of. Now I'll know to keep that in mind during my own search for romance.

Hugs,
Lisa

[Katie Ashe]

Beautifull Words from some Beautiful ladies. Can you ladies do me a favor... When you write, seems you organize my thoughs better than me :fim: . Keep up the good work, You should be inspirational poets.

[sherri]

Superb post Helana as always. You are a shining light. I happen to know you have successfully negotiated a hetero relationship, so I always pay close attention to your thoughts.

There is no question that I long for someone to be attracted to me when I'm dressed, that in addition to the calmer needs of emotional connection, companionship and diversion, I crave physical attraction and attention. While I've been an avid heterosexual all my life, in later years I have felt and entertained some bi urges that are inextricably linked to my dressing and being feminine. So there's that, but unquestionably my first preference would be to be found attractive and enoy the attention of a woman. Regarding interaction with other people, that is my strongest, unflagging desire. Like the others who are posting here, if I had that, I would not pursue - perhaps wouldn't even feel - the need for attention from others. In other words, I could safely lay my mate's fears along those lines to rest.

But don't you think, Helana, that an unaccepting wife's most instinctive objection has to do with repugnance? As we have discussed in months past, many women are likely to feel a rather profound disappointment that her husband isn't "all man" as we have all been reared and conditioned - perhaps even genetically predisposed - to perceive that notion. The other aspect of repugnance goes to plain old physical attraction, or the lack thereof. I mean, you have to think that in many instances these women aren't seeing "pretty" at all - they're seeing a caricature, an aberration, a perversion. (And to be honest, a select few of CDs or Tgs are a whole lot prettier than the rest of us.)

In discussing acceptance, perhaps I should add a concern I would have in negotiating only a grudging acceptance from an SO: I think it would bother me a great deal if I knew that my SO's acceptance didn't reflect genuine appeal. In other words, if she wasn't genuinely turned on, I don't think I would be either. My enjoyment of being feminine in her company - in bed and otherwise - would be seriously diminished if I suspected that my femininity didn't push her buttons in positive ways. I'd have to evaluate how viable such an arrangement could be because - and now I'm coming full circle to your topic - it is the real attraction, the real deal, that I long for.

[sherri]

The whole point of making yourself "attractive" is.....well.....to attract someone!

If he wants to look pretty en femme, who is he trying to attract? Not his wife -- unless she's a lesbian ... What a lot of women don't realize is that, unlike us, crossdressers can and do dress to attract themselves ... he sees himself through his male eyes as an object of desire, while at the same time enjoying the feminine experience of being desired in that way ... I think that closed circuit of self-attraction is extremely powerful.

She needs someone else to complete the circuit. That is why so many women say they don't feel attractive when their husbands are en femme -- because the man they want to attract is not there.


That is an incredible post, Marla. I was astonished by the clarity with which you made me see some things - a powerful dose of self-recognition, plus some new things to think about. I've been impressed with you a long time, but baby, you really got my attention this time! Thank you very much.

[Paula Rae]

Helana,

A very enlightening thread, you've put this subject into the proper prospective for me.
I copied yours and Marla's posts, and will use them in an upcoming discussion, I'll soon have to face in the next few days. The timing couldn't be better and your views are exactly what I will be trying to convey.

Helana thank you ever so much, this is a wonderful thread.

Ricki B

[britney1]

MOVE OVER DR. PHIL...

I think you hit the nail right on the head there. I think a if an unaccepting women read that post, she would disagree, only because you were 100% correct. As far as why men crossdress, you really described me pretty (no pun intended) accurately.

Thanks for your great insight? Want to be my phychologist?

[BrendaChristine]

The end of Marla's post is the answer for me. Right on Target.:yrtw:

[britney1]

[QUOTE=Marla GG]
The heterosexual crossdresser is a man who has been genetically programmed and socialized to desire women, and when he dresses like one, he sees himself through his male eyes as an object of desire, while at the same time enjoying the feminine experience of being desired in that way. I am not saying that crossdressers don't enjoy being admired by others, but I think that closed circuit of self-attraction is extremely powerful. If women understood this, they might not feel so threatened by their partners wanting to look pretty.

QUOTE]

Marla,

Wow, how did you know what I was thinking? I wish I could explain it to my wife that way. Even if I did, she wouldn't listen I dont think. Once we begin seeking counseling (as soon as I could find a decent one, that has been really tough), that is exactly how I am going to explain it to them, then maybe he/she can get it through my wifes head.

Thanks for your great insight

[pedebra]

Thank you, Helena! Thank you, Marla!
Those have got to be two of the best posts of all time. Both of you have done a marvelous job.

I have never given a thought as to who it is that I have been trying to attract; it would certainly not have occurred to me that it may be me. Men hold no attraction for me and, even though I sometimes fantasize about being with a man, I accept it for what it is, a fantasy. The thought of a GG being attracted to me when I am en femme is beyond my comprehension.

My biggest fear about my wife ever finding out is the hurt and rejection she would feel. I cannot imagine the devastation of a woman thinking that she has become so unattractive to her husband that he needs to dress like a woman to replace her. I was dressing when my wife was young and beautiful; now that we are older and she is only beautiful to me, I am still dressing. I don't think that most GG's would realize that this is something beyond our control.

Debra

[Sharon]

What can I say that hasn't already been said? So -- thanks Helena and Marla for your wonderful posts!

[Holly]

Nice stuff, ladies! I'm wondering, though, if there may be one other reasons GG's get all gussied up for us, however. Do you think it might be possible that our wives/SO's go to all that trouble so that we will be proud to be seen with them... to say to other women, "See how lucky my guy is to have a gal like me?" Is it possible that some do it as a statement that they are confident in who they are and the relationship they have with their mate? Do any of us dress up for the same or similar reasons?

[TGMarla]

Accepting women understand that men can feel pretty just to feel good and not relate this to them actually wanting male attention.Helena, once again I'm just blown away at your ability to analyze and clarify our situation with such perception. I agree with you completely. If only I could so succinctly describe things like this to my wife. Reading your post is like studying homework. The test is tomorrow!

I enjoy feeling pretty. It's always just for me, since this has been a solitary pursuit all my life. But I get a sense of well being from it. If by chance I looked attractive to a man, well so be it. I would be happy about it, but only because I would feel attractive, not because I actually want to attract men. Marla GG (Who else?) said it as well as I have ever heard it described. (Hey, Marla, How the heck do you know all this stuff so intimately?)
What a lot of women don't realize is that, unlike us, crossdressers can and do dress to attract themselves. The heterosexual crossdresser is a man who has been genetically programmed and socialized to desire women, and when he dresses like one, he sees himself through his male eyes as an object of desire, while at the same time enjoying the feminine experience of being desired in that way. When I read this, I thought, "You know what? She's absolutely right about this!" It's almost as though I had just never realized it before. Girls, if nothing else comes out of this thread, it already was worth reading just to gain your insights. Well done!

[Tamara Croft]

Now looking pretty is an impractical thing. It takes a lot of time, effort and money to sustain. One common complaint of men is that after they marry their wives she stops looking pretty. The nice feminine clothes gather dust in her wardrobe, the hair gets cut into a short manageable bob, makeup gets lesser etc. In other words women no longer feel it necessary to spend time/effort looking pretty because she has her man and she is too busy with her job and family. Plus she may have put on a few pounds and no longer feels that she is pretty.:clap: Helena, what a well written post. The above quote is me down to a T.

You are quite right, a lot of women that settle down do tend to tone down they way they dress and apply makeup after a while. I know that when I met Tam, I always had makeup on, always had nice long painted nails, but my dress sense was pretty rubbish. Over the years, all this stopped, I became settled, started gaining weight and hardly ever wore makeup. But recently this again has changed... I like to wear makeup, do my hair and wear feminine clothes..... I even started to wear skirts (which I've not wore since being at school). I don't wear a lot of makeup (not wearing any in my avatar), because I like the more natural look. Tam is a great influence on me and has a great dress sense (I'm getting better) but I don't need to make myself look pretty for her, I do it for my own self confidence and I think this is true for CD's also, looking pretty and turning heads is a real confidence boost.

[sarahsfiona GG]

I'm fairly new to this stuff. My sweetie confessed his secret to me back in our early "getting to know you" days about 14 months ago, but we never really spoke much about it until recently, when he finally told me his female persona's name, Sarah.

A little more about myself. I was married for a few years waaaay back when, and have been divorced a hair over 24 years. I've been quite overweight most of my life (my highest weight was a little over 300 pounds). I think it was a subconscious need to keep men away due to being sexually molested while I was growing up. As a result, I've never felt particularly attractive, so I never dressed up to attract anyone. After all, what man would want an obese, neurotic single mom, right?

Two years ago, I decided I was tired of being fat. I've struggled over the past 14 years or so...oh, how I've struggled!...and at one point lost 125 pounds. I've put a few pounds back on over the past three months, so once again, I'm struggling to lose it, plus the other 40 or 50 pounds I'd like to get rid of.

Enter my sweetie (I'll call him Bob). Bob is one of those incredible men who thinks women are attractive, no matter their size or shape. Be still, my heart. :) He just plain loves women, is attracted to them, wants to be like them, wants to feel the same things they feel, wants to wear their clothes.

I'm a sweats or jeans kinda girl. I wear sweats to the gym or around the house, and wear jeans to work. BUT...when I'm with Bob, I try my best to look and dress attractively, because I know he likes it, and I admit, I feel more attractive when I do it -- even if it's a pair of jeans. I've got a pair of low-rider jeans, and I'll pair them with a low-cut sweater for him, because I know he likes those particular jeans, and he loves a bit of cleavage.

He's only been able to dress en femme once for me. I know he desperately wanted to chicken out, I know it was an incredible risk on his part to dress that way for me. There was every chance I would decide it was too much for me to handle, or laugh at him, even though I've told him time and again I support him and his crossdressing. One never knows how someone will react, really, until they're faced with the situation.

I found him...HER...utterly enchanting. She wore a cheap wig, no makeup, and no shoes (she still hasn't found the perfect shoes!), and she stole my heart all over again.

Right now, Sarah is struggling with her need to crossdress. She's shopped as the opportunities have presented themselves, and when she has time to herself, I know she slips into a pair of pantyhose or lace panties. If we are ever granted the opportunity to be together, I will make sure she knows she is welcome to wear whatever her heart desires, without fear of being rejected or laughed at.

Frankly, I wouldn't hesitate to be seen in public with Sarah dressed en femme. With the right wig and makeup, she may very well be stunning, and I'd be SO proud of her, and proud to be seen with her.

And I know I'm rambling. Sigh. Hope some of this made sense. It's late; I'm off to bed so I can get up bright and early in <groan> 4-1/2 hours to go to the gym.

Helena, Marla, thanks for your insight. It helps me understand a little better why Sarah feels the need to crossdress, and makes me determined to support her however I can.

Fiona

[windycissy]

Amazing insights into why we dress. You nailed it.

As to why some GG's react so negatively, if your wife or girlfriend announced one day that she wanted to take hormones so she could grow a beard, arm and leg hair, etc. and dress as a man, how would you feel? Threatened as a man, and physically turned off?

I think that when her man dresses as a woman it makes some GG's feel insecure about their femininity, and it can be a physical turn-off for them.

As some of you know, I have recently started dating a CD'er. He loves dressing as a woman. I know this sounds selfish, but it bums me out when he does, because I want to be with "him"!

Windy

[Veronica E. Scott]

What an incerdible piece of literature both of you get a blue robbon.
It boggles my mind how you both can come up with this stuff thank you for being the people you are you both surly are an inspiration to us all.
What an incredibly insightful day this has been.

LOVE to you all

[Helana]

Helana, that was one of the best posts I've ever read. Your analysis makes perfect sense. In the post-feminist world, women aren't supposed to admit that looking pretty is all about seeking male attention. The women's magazines all say we should choose our clothing, makeup and hairstyles to please ourselves, not men. That is all very well and good, but I still don't know any women who bother getting dressed and made up just to sit at home on their own. The whole point of making yourself "attractive" is.....well.....to attract someone!

Therefore, it is only natural for a woman in a relationship with a CD to get confused. If he wants to look pretty en femme, who is he trying to attract? Not his wife -- unless she's a lesbian. Not other men -- unless he's gay. What a lot of women don't realize is that, unlike us, crossdressers can and do dress to attract themselves. The heterosexual crossdresser is a man who has been genetically programmed and socialized to desire women, and when he dresses like one, he sees himself through his male eyes as an object of desire, while at the same time enjoying the feminine experience of being desired in that way. I am not saying that crossdressers don't enjoy being admired by others, but I think that closed circuit of self-attraction is extremely powerful. If women understood this, they might not feel so threatened by their partners wanting to look pretty.

But I think there is something else that makes women unhappy about all of this, even more than the thought that their man might be looking for outside attention, namely.....if he is the pretty one.......then who is going to desire ME? A woman feels pretty when she knows she is wanted by a man, but if her man is acting like a woman, where does that leave her? She doesn't have the crossdresser's ability to look at herself as an object of desire. She needs someone else to complete the circuit. That is why so many women say they don't feel attractive when their husbands are en femme -- because the man they want to attract is not there.

Thanks again for the fabulous post. Your insights are much appreciated.


Marla, yet again you demonstrate your powers of insight go well beyond mine. :thumbsup: I have read about autogynephilia before but never has it been explained so simply and succintly as you did and I have never seen it related it to women's fears about crossdressing before. It was the perfect piece of analysis to my rambling post.

I would hate you for being cleverer than me if only I did not love you so much. :p You really do need to think about writing a book. Seriously. I have never come across anyone who sees the whole picture as well as you do.

[Helana]

But don't you think, Helana, that an unaccepting wife's most instinctive objection has to do with repugnance? As we have discussed in months past, many women are likely to feel a rather profound disappointment that her husband isn't "all man" as we have all been reared and conditioned - perhaps even genetically predisposed - to perceive that notion. The other aspect of repugnance goes to plain old physical attraction, or the lack thereof. I mean, you have to think that in many instances these women aren't seeing "pretty" at all - they're seeing a caricature, an aberration, a perversion. (And to be honest, a select few of CDs or Tgs are a whole lot prettier than the rest of us.)
Hi Sherri
Certainly to unaccepting women, repugnance is likely to be an initial response. Our society has created a toxic brew of sexism and religious bigotry which unfortunately still has a strong hold on mainstream society despite liberal advances. For many people the social conditioning is so ingrained that they are unable to overcome it even after they have been educated on the facts of crossdressing. As I have said before prejudice is a belief, it is not based on understanding so throwing facts at it will not cause the prejudice to collapse.


In discussing acceptance, perhaps I should add a concern I would have in negotiating only a grudging acceptance from an SO: I think it would bother me a great deal if I knew that my SO's acceptance didn't reflect genuine appeal. In other words, if she wasn't genuinely turned on, I don't think I would be either. My enjoyment of being feminine in her company - in bed and otherwise - would be seriously diminished if I suspected that my femininity didn't push her buttons in positive ways. I'd have to evaluate how viable such an arrangement could be because - and now I'm coming full circle to your topic - it is the real attraction, the real deal, that I long for.

That is a tricky subject. I think you have to separate the emotional/friendship side of a relationship from the sexual component. Open minded women can accept the emotional/friendship side of crossdressing but often draw the line at the bedroom. But that still leaves the hanging question about desirability. Although we CDers have the ability to love and desire our female image through our male eyes, even that may become insufficient eventually thus the need to go out in public arises. We are social creatures and want to be attractive to others. I think if the woman rules out any sexual contact, then that leaves a cold, gaping hole to be filled. The man will then be conflicted with wanting to be faithful to his SO but at the same time wanting his feminine side to be desired by someone, anyone.

I think GGs actually have a tall order to fill. I think that they have to come to terms with the emotional and sexual needs of crossdressing. I don't think a CDer is ever totally fulfilled unless he knows that his SO also finds him desirable in his female role.

I guess you can say that a CDer should just be content with an accepting SO who just lets him dress without finding him attractive. That should be sufficient for him and he should sacrifice any futher ideas about taking his CDing into a sexual plane. In a perfect world that self-sacrifice would be taken for granted but we are all far from being perfect.

At the end of the day if people want to ignore the strong sexual overtones that run alongside crossdressing then that may work in some relationships with those who really can self-sacrifice all their lives. But some find their sexuality too strong a force to ignore and will eventually need to express themselves.

I really admire all women who not only accept crossdressing but find their partners desirable. Thats what all CDers want, what they dream about. Relationships which cater for both the emotional and sexual needs of both partners will be the strongest.

For me, sexual orientation is fluid. Although most people lean heavilly towards hetro/homo-sexuality we all have the capacity to move towards something inbetween. This is why many CDers sooner or later become bi-curious, and some act on this and discover bi-sexuality. This is driven by a desire to find unconditional love not by homosexuality.

To be human is to be self-centered. Both partners need to be realistic in understanding each other's sexual desires and fantasies and the need for these to be fulfilled in some shape or form. Sharing fantasies is one of the best ways to develop a strong, deep emotional bond that can survive the ups and downs of life. To share one's greatest fantasies is to know that your partner truely understands you completely. What more could you ask for?

[TGMarla]

I don't think a CDer is ever totally fulfilled unless he knows that his SO also finds him desirable in his female role.

I'm not sure I completely agree with this statement. I have been married for quite a while to an unaccepting spouse. I suppose it is reasonable to believe that I don't have any idea just how fulfilling crossdressing can really be, since I have never left the house with it, and I certainly have never had sex while dressed in any way. I have fantasized about it, but that's all. Right now, I'm hoping to bring my relationship with my wife to a level where she can accept this part of me, but I have no realistic hopes that she will have any desire to actively participate in any transgendered activities even privately. I don't expect her to want to have sex with me while I am dressed, nor do I expect her to go out with me while I am dressed. All I'm really hoping for at this juncture is some modecum of acceptance. I want her to see that the person she is married to is really no different despite the fact that he likes to wear feminine attire from time to time.

When she and I spoke about this subject last week, she said that this was not necessarily the case. If I had been a pedophile, this knowledge certainly would change the way she perceived me completely. I retorted as gently as I could that crossdressing and pedophelia are not appropriate comparisons. She agreed and backed off on that statement. But the spirit of what she was trying to say is that there are some things, some aspects of our personalities that when hidden, leave an inaccurate portrait of our true selves behind. She feels that she never got to know the person she married, and that as a result, she was sold a bill of goods with a hidden problem. I am working to overcome that perception now, and it's a tough row to hoe.

So perhaps true fulfillment as a crossdresser necessarily includes intimacy and going out into the world, but I'd settle for some baby steps, like simple acceptance without interaction or inclusion for the time being.

[Sarahgurl371]

Therefore, it is only natural for a woman in a relationship with a CD to get confused. If he wants to look pretty en femme, who is he trying to attract? Not his wife -- unless she's a lesbian. Not other men -- unless he's gay. What a lot of women don't realize is that, unlike us, crossdressers can and do dress to attract themselves. The heterosexual crossdresser is a man who has been genetically programmed and socialized to desire women, and when he dresses like one, he sees himself through his male eyes as an object of desire, while at the same time enjoying the feminine experience of being desired in that way. I am not saying that crossdressers don't enjoy being admired by others, but I think that closed circuit of self-attraction is extremely powerful. If women understood this, they might not feel so threatened by their partners wanting to look pretty.

.

Helana, Obviously a well thought out and thought provokinh thread, Just how do you do it consistently?:thumbsup:

Marla, Again you are right on as always. My phsyciatrist told me a story that when her was doing his internship, an experienced Dr. and he were seeing a CDer. He asked the DR. what he told the patient, who apparantly had issues about his sexulaltiy and gender. The Dr's statment was that the CDer is like an extreme heterosexual. He loves women so much that he becomes one himself, and loves himself as a women, and loves himself as a man. Sounds a little confusing, but sounds about right. Who knows why we do it. But we do, and the only thing we can change is how we view it.

[Sarahgurl371]

Ok just read the last post from Helana, WOW. hit the nail on the head agian. All I want is to be loved, loved for who I am, no secrets, no hiding, no lying, no feelings of inadequacies, just me and you together.

I have gotten to dress in front of my unacceptting SO. I have been intimate with her as Tammy. Not as fully as I 'd like , but enough for me to realize I need it, and for her to realize she doesn't like it. I have never felt fullfilled intimately. Probably because of all this. However, the best most incredible sexual encounter I have ever experienced, I was totally en drab. It was an encounter just after having been allowed to express myself however i wanted with my SO. Althought I still had reservation, I had been able to break the ice on being loved as me. What made the encounter en drab so unforgetable, was the fact that I was with my wife, and she understands me, gets me, is OK with me. However short lived that time was for us, I will never forget it. It filled the hole. That hole that exists between two people, when one feels that they cannot be themselves for the sake of the other. That hole is huge sometimes. If we want to fully enrich our marraiges, that hole must be filled in with love and respect.

Now that we are back to unaccepting mode agian, the hole is back. She wants to feel love and passion from me, I want to feel love and passion from her. Both of us are hurting, one of us must step up, be the better person. I have done that for 14 years, will probably do it agian, as I cannot stand to see her hurt. But sure wouldn't mind it being the other way around for once.

Balance is the key, i know that. You must give and must take. Its just trying to find the right balance that is the problem. A balance were everbody feels respected and valued. Tough palce to find.

[sherri]

Hi Sherri
Certainly to unaccepting women, repugnance is likely to be an initial response. Our society has created a toxic brew of sexism and religious bigotry which unfortunately still has a strong hold on mainstream society despite liberal advances. For many people the social conditioning is so ingrained that they are unable to overcome it even after they have been educated on the facts of crossdressing. As I have said before prejudice is a belief, it is not based on understanding so throwing facts at it will not cause the prejudice to collapse.
It is impossible to analyze this situation without considering social conditioning. Even when we talk about biological response mechanisms, conditioning is a factor. Nevertheless, if we could strip away conditioning, I say that the vast majority of people will respond sexually to the differences in the genders, not the similarities. Deeper than conditioning, down where the molecules and synapsis swarm, it's how we're wired.

Given a couple of generations, could guys learn to like women with hairy legs and drab clothing? Could women learn to like swishy guys shaved smooth and wearing dresses? Maybe, maybe because in that scenario there's still a dichotomy, a difference, and after all, the anatomy hasn't changed.

I know that hairy legs on women grosses me out, but it's possible my taste could change in time. One thing I don't think could change, however, is that the more masculine her demeanor and behavior, the less sexually attractive she becomes to me. A woman that behaves and talks like a man turns me stone cold.

A long time ago I saw a National Geographic thing about a tribe (Africa, New Guinea, I can't remember) where the gender manifestations were reversed. The women dressed plainly and conservatively in robe-like garments, no adornment to speak of. The men were the dandies - colorful (even revealing) clothing, elaborate hairdos, jewelry, even makeup and tattoos. The women performed the bulk of the chores while the men were rather idle in comparison, preoccupied with their looks and costumes. At their hoedowns, the women formed a circle around the men, who paraded around in their finery and performed sexually suggestive dances. Sexual pairings were up to the preferences of the men, and there was some homo and bi sexuality among them.

For whatever it's worth, this tribe's numbers were shrinking. Anthropologists speculated that it faced extinction in the foreseeable future.

[Keri]

Sherri:
You state that "a woman that behaves and talks like a man" turns you stone cold. But you want to "behave and talk like a woman". Methinks that you, like many of us, are a closet lesbian in that you want both parties in the relationship to be feminine.
You also make reference to some African tribe where the genders swap roles. Well, you don't have to go that far afield. In the days of Mozart in Europe, "gentlemen" were quite effeminite in their appearance but were renowned as great lovers. Kings of England wore godamiches (or "cod pieces") that were effectively colorful jock-straps worn OVER their pants, the male equivalent (I guess) to fancy brasierres, but that no guy would wear such today.
So ... it's a matter of current style, and it will take the example of some VERY senior members of society to change their "fashion tastes" before we, the masses, will get away with wearing non-traditional attire in public.

[sherri]

Sherri:
You state that "a woman that behaves and talks like a man" turns you stone cold. But you want to "behave and talk like a woman". Methinks that you, like many of us, are a closet lesbian in that you want both parties in the relationship to be feminine.
You are absolutely correcto mundo there, girl, except I don't know about the closet part. I am most attracted to very feminine women. Even tomboys kind of put me off. I will admit a dominatrix has a certain allure ...

But you know what? All this has started me thinking ... how do I know I couldn't warm up to masculine traits in a woman? I've never experienced it. I know that most butch lesbians I see turn me off, but maybe there's an acceptable level somewhere. And not just about appearance either - what about a reversal of gender dynamics? Hmmm ...



You also make reference to some African tribe where the genders swap roles. Well, you don't have to go that far afield. In the days of Mozart in Europe, "gentlemen" were quite effeminite in their appearance but were renowned as great lovers. Kings of England wore godamiches (or "cod pieces") that were effectively colorful jock-straps worn OVER their pants, the male equivalent (I guess) to fancy brasierres, but that no guy would wear such today.
Those codpieces are the most hilarious things I've ever seen. The only thing funnier are those enormous wooden penises worn by New Guinea pygmies. :lol2:

[Helana]

I have fantasized about it, but that's all. Right now, I'm hoping to bring my relationship with my wife to a level where she can accept this part of me, but I have no realistic hopes that she will have any desire to actively participate in any transgendered activities even privately. I don't expect her to want to have sex with me while I am dressed, nor do I expect her to go out with me while I am dressed. All I'm really hoping for at this juncture is some modecum of acceptance. I want her to see that the person she is married to is really no different despite the fact that he likes to wear feminine attire from time to time.

Marla

I agree with your sentiments. You are at a stage where any acceptance seems wonderful. This all comes down to what stage you and your relationship is at. If your relationship is 90% friendship and 10% sexual then sacrificing your feminine desires seems like an easy thing to do. Most CDers will willingly agree to a no intimancy compromise deal with their SOs, but that does not mean your fantasies will go away.

Going back to Marla's post about autogynephilia, she is absolutely correct in saying we have the capacity to to love our feminine image and complete the circuit ourselves. It is one of the defining features of a crossdresser and is what separates us from say a gay crossdressing man who still needs to be desired by another man to complete his circuit.

The point I am trying to get across is that self-love is not as satisfying as being loved by another. Although we typically spend most of our lives content with our autogynephilia, it is only natural that we will want to progress beyond that and ask our SOs to love our feminine side too.

I just want to lay my cards on the tables and say lets all talk honestly about this as it is a difficult and sensitive area for all of us.

Take this situation. A wife agrees to allow her husband to crossdress, sensible boundaries are established, one of which is no intimancy while dressed. The husband understands that his wife is not attracted to the female image and readily agrees to this. Now the husband is happy that he can at last express himself freely around the house and then one day he does something which comes so naturally to him, he reaches out and hugs and kisses his wife. His wife is cold, she withdraws and he can see repugnance on her face. He knows in his head that he has oversteped the boundary, he knows his wife rejects his female image, but how does his heart feel? Will he not feel rejected, disheartened that his wife reacted in this manner, he feels his guilt and shame return. He starts thinking that his wife's acceptance is all a show, that she really does not accept him at all. He gets angry and stops crossdressing. Sound familiar?

There is an unfortunate and unintended cruelty in allowing a CDer to express himself freely but then have his feminine side rejected and unloved. And we all know that when we feel unloved we may think of looking for it elsewhere. This half-way stage where his wife loves his male side but only tolerates his female side is agreeable in his head but not in his heart.

From a GG's point of view, this can be very unsettling. GGs wonder where all of this will end and there are lingering doubts. They know that what will satisfy their husbands today will not necessarily satisfy them tomorrow. They know their husbands will want to keep pushing at the boundaries. Everybody feels more comfortable when boundaries are fixed. GGs want the reassurance of fixed boundaries, they want to know there is a limit to crossdressing. They feel that the man is being selfish by his desire for more and more freedoms and acceptance and that he is no longer playing fair with agreed compromises. She has already had to jump through one hoop in accepting his crossdressing, now he is asking for the impossible and wanting her to find him desirable too!

There is no easy answer to this except for both parties to be as honest as possible. If a GG asks me where does this all end then I have a simple answer. I just want to be loved. All of me, unconditionally. I know that I am a person with special needs so it takes a lot more effort on the part of a woman to love me. A woman needs to leave her comfort zone and push her own boundaries so much further then normal. For that I will love her even more because then I know her love is true.

As a crossdresser I have had to push my own boundaries internally and reach a level of self acceptance. It has been a long and difficult road and now I am asking the woman I love to do the same. At the end of the day those who explore their own boundaries learn so much about themselves and become better people. Maybe she will find it impossible to ever fully love me the way I want, but at least she will have tried and discovered her inner boundaries. And I will love her for trying and will accept the best she can give me.

Am I being selfish? Absolutely. I want to be loved for who I am. But isn't that the same for everybody?

[Helana]

But you know what? All this has started me thinking ... how do I know I couldn't warm up to masculine traits in a woman? I've never experienced it. I know that most butch lesbians I see turn me off, but maybe there's an acceptable level somewhere. And not just about appearance either - what about a reversal of gender dynamics? Hmmm ...

There yo go Sherri, you don't know where you boundaries are because you never pushed at them. Just as you used to think yourself as being 100% hetro, now you know that is not true.

Yes opposites attract, but so do similarities. Nearly everyone chooses a partner because they share similar attitudes and interests. We find opposites interesting and exciting but we usually choose the safety of similarity. As always there is an individual balance point for our preferences. Just as Tammy said its a tough place to find though.

Tammy - I think both of you have to step up to be better persons - you need to fulfil her desires and she must recognize yours. The difference is that it will take a lot of time and patience and love on your part to help her reach that level of self-undertanding and get her to find out where her true boundaries lie. Only time will tell if she can give you all the love you want. But she needs to understand that she must try!

[sherri]

Take this situation. A wife agrees to allow her husband to crossdress, sensible boundaries are established, one of which is no intimancy while dressed. The husband understands that his wife is not attracted to the female image and readily agrees to this. Now the husband is happy that he can at last express himself freely around the house and then one day he does something which comes so naturally to him, he reaches out and hugs and kisses his wife. His wife is cold, she withdraws and he can see repugnance on her face. He knows in his head that he has oversteped the boundary, he knows his wife rejects his female image, but how does his heart feel? Will he not feel rejected, disheartened that his wife reacted in this manner, he feels his guilt and shame return. He starts thinking that his wife's acceptance is all a show, that she really does not accept him at all. He gets angry and stops crossdressing. Sound familiar?

There is an unfortunate and unintended cruelty in allowing a CDer to express himself freely but then have his feminine side rejected and unloved. And we all know that when we feel unloved we may think of looking for it elsewhere. This half-way stage where his wife loves his male side but only tolerates his female side is agreeable in his head but not in his heart.

This scenario perfectly illustrates why I said earlier in the thread that I didn't know if partial acceptance could ever work for me.

And there's no way I could ever honestly fault the wife if she could not summon up a sincere acceptance, especially if I sprang my predilection on her after the relationship had been signed sealed and delivered, so to speak. A person who is raised up with one set of normative value sets, completes her process of maturation in that same set of norms and enters into the most serious commitment of her life within the structure of those norms is effectively "hard wired" in her sensibilities and expectations and cannot, in my opinion, be faulted if she cannot overcome that conditioning. For most people, it would be a herculean, gut wrenching task.

That said, the only constant in life is change (it takes awhile to figure that out), so we can hope for and work toward acceptance of shifting gender expressions within a relationship. It is wonderful when love overcomes inbred sensibilities and prejudices. But my question is, when I insist on being loved for who I have become (midstream, as it were) and contemplate dissolution of the relationship if that love isn't delivered, how can I in good conscience justify throwing away my love for this person who otherwise has remained steadfast and true, who is still the same person I loved before I started stamping my high heeled foot? If I knew I was breaking her heart, how could I look myself in the mirror?

[Helana]

Sherri

I agree with everything you said. There is no right or wrong, no blame to be handed out, its all about the dynamics of a relationship between two people. At the end of the day crossdressing is just one of many issues couples have to address if they are to have a lasting and loving life together. If both try their hardest to understand and accommodate each other then anything beyond that is overstepping the boundaries of love.

[erica12b]

this is the best post ever it should be put on a tv show (prim time) it also leads to a thought i have had about closeted cd's most stay that way its the self fullfilling part plus the down fall of being outed, then as we get older the need to connect with others even just out for a drive ,pushes us out more and more . now can one of you goddesses of the writen word put all of these thoughts in to one long peace we as a cd' nation can post as a helpful aid for all

[erica12b]

dr phil, (not springer)

[kathy gg]

Helana,

Excellent posts and many really great things that need to be discussed on this forum as so many do face life each day with an unaccepting SO.

But can I turn some of this on its' head ? I always like more feminine, more androgenous guys sicne as far back as I can remember having crushes.
There was one thing you said which almost goes against what you or others would think of an accepting SO. I mean, I looked to date and marry a cd when I was single. I love the whole idea of having fun with this in a public or private way. I find it sexy and attractive. It does turn me on.



e.
I think GGs actually have a tall order to fill. I think that they have to come to terms with the emotional and sexual needs of crossdressing. I don't think a CDer is ever totally fulfilled unless he knows that his SO also finds him desirable in his female role.

But that is just it, I find my husband attractive when he is en femme, but dont' consider him female. Certainly don't view him as another woman. I think I have tried but I think we both know that we know each other too well to manage to pretend he is a real 'she'.

When we were dating I asked if I needed to alway refer to 'amanda' when dressed at home. He said it did not matter. So I rarely do, I use his male name unless we are out in public.

When i have tried to treat 'her' like one of my girlfriends, well I think we both found it a bit odd. I think he wants to be seen as my spouse, regardless of his presentation, not some other female friend. And my spouse happens to be a guy, so there 'he' is again.

Is this because he is basically alway acting in the same in voice, and manner, and personaltiy no matter the clothing? My husband is not a loud pereson, he is quiet, a bit reserved, and has a dry sense of humor. This is always there, clothing does not matter.

To put this another way, alot of non crossdressing males desire to be with mtf. They desire it because they are getting more than meets the eye. They like knowing that their "girlfriend" has something real girls don't have. In many ways, that is how it plays out for me. I like knowing we have this fun secret to share. I like knowing that my cute boy can also be this other cute thing.

But I don't think of him as a woman and I doubt I ever will. I find him sexy and attractive regardless of what he has on. There is not one version of him which I find 'better', I love all that he is equally.

Luckily he is not the type of person to get caught up in how I view him at different times. I love him with all my heart and still lust after him madly.

So it is possible in my opinion, to be acepting (or is that crazily enthused?), find my spouse sexy and attractive all the time, and not think of him as 'female'.

And I know this might bother some, and maybe that is why I am married to him and not another. But it is how I feel and I doubt I am the only one. I don't think of them as two separate idenities or people or genders. I think of my sweetie as this amazing person I just want to spend the rest of my life with.

just my .03

[sherri]

I mean, I looked to date and marry a cd when I was single. I love the whole idea of having fun with this in a public or private way. I find it sexy and attractive. It does turn me on.
O-M-G!!! Why don't girls like you ever post here before you get married?!?! :p Do you have any sisters?

Seriously, do you know other GGs that feel the way you do? Do y'all ever talk about it? And how in the world did you and your husband ever find each other?



I always like more feminine, more androgenous guys sicne as far back as I can remember having crushes ... I find my husband attractive when he is en femme, but dont' consider him female ... So it is possible in my opinion, to be acepting (or is that crazily enthused?), find my spouse sexy and attractive all the time, and not think of him as 'female'.
This makes perfect sense to me, especially if your husband isn't a stereotypically macho type to begin with. If there's any suppression going on in my personality, I probably rein in my androgyny in male mode. I don't feel like I morph into an alternate identity en femme. I do feel different, but it's like a more whole, well-rounded me rather than a jekyll/hyde thing. My mannerisms and speech are a little more feminine when I'm dressed but I try to avoid much affectation. It's just me that gets expressed, some girl, some guy ... just me.

I think that's why I've always been turned off by the outrageous mannerisms of drag queens. Way over the top. And why are they always so loud? :p I think "drag queen" has become a stereotype for TVs of any persuasion - people expect exaggerated femininity, affectation, outrageousness and they're confused when they encounter something calmer, a bit more real in a CD. N'est ce pas?

[Jenn]

Helana this is the most beautiful explaination of something that I have personally struggled with that I have ever read..... I had to dry the tears before I could post. This I will keep forever. Thank you for saying what I have always felt but could never express.

[Helana]

Hi Kathy, always nice to hear from you. You are really special to have started from a position of acceptance. Don't ever give out your address or you will have 5,000 CDs from this forum knocking at your door:D




But that is just it, I find my husband attractive when he is en femme, but dont' consider him female. Certainly don't view him as another woman. I think I have tried but I think we both know that we know each other too well to manage to pretend he is a real 'she'.
Yup, key to acceptance is understanding that you have nothing to fear from finding your man attractive while en femme, that he is not dressing up because he is gay or wants male attention, that he is dressing up for himself and for you, his SO. If only non-accepting women could understand that finding their man desirable would melt their man's heart in an instant then maybe things might work out better.



When i have tried to treat 'her' like one of my girlfriends, well I think we both found it a bit odd. I think he wants to be seen as my spouse, regardless of his presentation, not some other female friend. And my spouse happens to be a guy, so there 'he' is again.

Is this because he is basically alway acting in the same in voice, and manner, and personaltiy no matter the clothing? My husband is not a loud pereson, he is quiet, a bit reserved, and has a dry sense of humor. This is always there, clothing does not matter.
Like Sherri, I think many CDers are deluding themselves when they try to emulate women, its just acting in my opinion, like being a drag queen. I understand we may need to do it in public so that others will be more accepting of us, looking like a real woman and not something inbetween, but then I am doing it for the sake of others rather than for myself. Sure there is always the excitement factor but that quickly subsides.

Its perfectly fine to do it for a fun night out, but why would I want to go to all the hassle of plastering on makeup, wigs, breast forms etc in the privacy of my own home with my SO on a routine basis? Never made much sense to me. I am a man with feminine traits who enjoys looking pretty, I am not a girl so why be a drag queen for my SO?

I dont want to blow anyone's bubble but when I look at the pictures here in the forum, I see men trying to look pretty, I never for a second see them as girls.

I dont change my personality or voice when I crossdress, I am still the same person and I still view my SO in exactly the same way as I do when in drab. The only real change in the dynamics of our relationship is that I can feel pretty and my SO can think of me as being pretty. That can be fun for both parties.

My belief is that while many people are stubbornly hetrosexual and can never be anything else, all have wiggle room and can, at minimum, become bi-curious. Similarly everyone can appreciate thinking their partner looks cute in whatever style of clothing they choose to wear. Its just a matter of re-arranging your thoughts and ignoring social conditioning.

Thanks again for your own personal insights.

[Helana]

Helana this is the most beautiful explaination of something that I have personally struggled with that I have ever read..... I had to dry the tears before I could post. This I will keep forever. Thank you for saying what I have always felt but could never express.

Yikes Jenn, I have never known my ramblings to reduce someone to tears, usually I bore them to death:D . Thank you for the wonderful compliment.:) That makes it all worthwhile.

[emanon]

Hi. Just took the hint from the message on my screen as "How come you haven't posted? etc. etc." So here goes.

I had intended to reply to a previous thread, titled "Ever look at girls and want what they're wearing?" Unfortunately, the thread is closed, so I guess I'm stuck with another one, and it might as well be this!

What Helana said in beginning this thread seems to make sense to me. I'll have my wife read it too and see what she thinks. We'll see

Emanon

[Penny]

Than you Helena. For quite some time, I have been stressing the Cd's need to be and feel pretty but obviously not as well as you did. Did you ever meet
a plain Jane who exuded feminism. Statistically, I would bet that about the same number of women didn't get the pretty gene as men who did get it (heterosexual CDs). I would also venture to say that this percentage would be similar to homosexual men vs drag queens and homosexual females vs butch women. While lifes events may diminish a woman's necessity or desire
to feel pretty it is not eliminated but rather, I think, put on hold. Consider the cosmetic industries drive to capitalize on the aging woman and it's working with all of it's anti aging products. Women do not age as gracefully as men but we as Cd's don't age any better than woman. As I get older, I find the need to look and feel pretty is stronger and I crossdress entirely unless I have to be drab. I am also guilty of buying those creams and products designed to slow the aging process. Because I feel the need to
crossdress more and my appearance is frequently that of female, unless
I keep prospective of who I am and my need to only feel pretty, I can see where
it would be easy to become confused about my true gender and possibly my
sexual orientation. I am thankful my wife has known for over 20 years and
has accepted me because allowing crossdressing to remain in the closet,
would mean all un checked feelings and fantasys would be utterly confusing.
By telling your spouse that it makes you feel like a woman, or feminine or
or this is your other half and all of the other reasons others have expresed to
justify crossdressing, I sure can see why it would baffle her!