How can you be a crossdresser if you’re transgendered?

[Frédérique]

Are you CD or Transgender or both?

“We have a technical…” (Gary Numan)

Splitting off from Marleena’s recent thread, itself splitting off from other discussions, I wish to ask this technical question: If you’re really transgendered, either mentally or physically, how can you say that you’re a crossdresser? It seems to me that if you’ve gone from one gender to the other, as the word transgender implies, and, in the case of MtF, you now identify as a woman, wouldn’t you just be naturally wearing clothes appropriate to your gender, and not crossdressing per se?

This idea has popped up here a few times in the past couple of years, usually put forth lightheartedly, such as, “You know, I’m not really crossdressing any more – it’s become just DRESSING!!!” Yeah, that’s what I’m getting at – if you see yourself as a woman, it follows you would (or should) wear women’s clothing, n’est ce pas? In that instance, you’re no longer crossdressing, you’re simply wearing the clothes that distinguish your sex, or gender if you prefer. I recently wrote a thing about this idea of how clothes distinguish the sexes, and if we transpose the ideas contained within that ignored OP onto the current argument, it sheds new light on the terms crossdresser and transgender. If you’re a male by birth, but you have become convinced you’re really a woman, where does the crossdressing come in?

I identify as a male, yet I wear women’s clothing on occasion, so I am a MtF crossdresser. I am not interested in becoming a woman, or living my life as a woman, so I cannot, by definition, be called transgendered. I trans-vest, but I do not, will not, and shall not trans-gender. I’m not a female trapped in a male body, there is no “inner girl” inside me, and pink fog is a rare occurrence at best. I like to dress up as a form of hedonistic pleasure, no strings attached, purely for fun whenever I feel like it. At the beginning and end of the day, I am a male. I don’t wear my femme clothes to bed. In the outside world, I go around as a male – my femme self, if you can call it that, comes and goes like a will-o-the-wisp, being employed to heighten or otherwise enhance reality. I am not dressed all the time, because there is no need to – I exist as a male, and my CD’ing is just something I do to relax or feel good. I can most accurately be termed a “crossdresser,” because I cross back and forth between the genders via clothing, no big deal, and no further explanation is needed…

If you’re transgendered, you cannot accurately be termed a crossdresser, IMHO. Maybe you began your “career” as a crossdresser, and you came to realize you were really transgendered, so the crossdressing evolved into something more serious and meaningful. If so, you have evolved into something other than a crossdresser. This reminds me – I once had a TG (on the “road” to SRS) friend on this site, and one day I asked her a CD question. She wrote me back, saying, in her inimitably blunt manner, “I wouldn’t know, I’m not a crossdresser…” even though she is a male by birth and wears female clothing all the time (as far as I know). This is exactly what I’m referring to. Referencing Marleena’s quote (seen above), how can a person be both TG and CD? To the outside world, a transgendered individual would be seen as a crossdresser (which would explain their presence on this forum), but hasn’t that particular type of person gone BEYOND crossdressing?

One more thing – not every MtF crossdresser is interested in becoming a woman, or living their life as a woman, so why does an insistence on transgender proliferate in this section of a site for crossdressers? Perhaps I’m not reading the “happy” threads as much as I should, or maybe I’ve been sniped at too many times by TG’s who take issue with “mere” crossdressers like me. I should say at this point that I have many TG friends (sisters) here, at various points along their personal journey from M to F, and anyone reading my posts should not assume that I’m against transgender in any way – that would be like me being against sunshine, or shadow, or imagination, three things I dearly love and that I know exist. My interest is in the terms we have accepted to define ourselves and nothing more. I like to pick these terms up by the handles (if they have any), study them, hold them to the light, and see them from all angles. To me, transgender is a very interesting yet (at times) a very inaccurate term, and, since I have plunked myself down amidst TG types for better or worse, everyone assumes I must also be transgendered. I know I am not, and I never will be. I am just a crossdresser, a lonely hedonistic fetishist, a male who wears women’s clothing now and then. Can you dig it? I certainly can…

So, if you’re truly transgendered, surely you’re not crossdressing – it’s just dressing, isn’t it? :thinking:

The more I think of it, I think something has been lost in translation… :sigh:

PS – Please don’t get bent out of shape reading this – this is just a technical question, and I mean no harm, OK?

[Marleena]

Freddy are you calling me out now?:D

Here's the thing my good friend, they can call me anything. You see when I put on a dress I open myself to ridicule, it's just the way it is. They can call me gay, queer, perverted, freak, or whatever it won't change me. I'm immune to it now.

They don't get it but by putting us all under the TG umbrella it allows them a chance to try understand our different behavior. I think we need to get all the people that don't understand us into classrooms and educate them all of what we're not. You see they don't know the difference between a fetish dresser, a CDer or Transsexual, or Drag Queen.

So just don't call me late for dinner!<--- (can't believe I typed that).:)

We are all integrated into society and are productive members of society. None of us need to be ashamed. I think we are way cool!:)

My other thread was just my inquisitive nature trying to understand what the big deal was.

[Shelly Preston]

Quote from dictionary.com


trans·gen·der
[trans-jen-der, tranz‐] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.
adjective
2.
being, pertaining to, or characteristic of a transgender or transgenders: the transgender movement.

I think this answers the question very simply

[Kate Simmons]

Evidently, if you are a femme TG person, you are considered crossdressing if you dress en homme, no? Beats me, my head hurts when I think about this stuff almost as bad as Capt. Janeway and time paradoxes.:doh::)

[Angela Campbell]

Others may disagree and thats ok, but my understanding is a crossdresser is someone who wears clothes for the opposite gender than the sex they are born with. It doesn't refer to the reasons the person does it. So if you were born a male and wear womens clothing you are a crossdresser. Crossdressing is something a person does and transgender is something a person is. A transgendered person has some feelings of the other gender than they were born into. There are varying degrees of this from wanting to express femininity, all the way to wanting to become the other sex. A transgendered person who wants to transition but chooses not to for whatever reasons, is still crossdressing when they wear the clothes. Even if they want to be the other sex. That person is both transgendered and a crossdresser. Once a person is transitioning they are changing their sex and so they are no longer crossdressing they are dressing for the sex they are. (or are becoming)

[Lorileah]

You make a HUGE assumption there Freddy. You assume that once you go one way you cannot go back and forth. That is wrong. We have discussed the whole TG vs TS nomenclature before and I have just given up trying to sway your definition.

But being a TG is NOT a one way journey. Going from appearing masculine to feminine and back does not preclude you from being included in the transgender spectrum. The medical community includes cross dressers in the TG spectrum. But then there is no way we can ever change your mind. You do confuse people here though by making your own rules for communication. You have your own definition which conflicts with current accepted psychological and medical definitions of the term. I did notice that you did say it was YOUR opinion. And as such you are entitled. However, as a group or community, having conflicting definitions only makes any discussion impossible.

This has been beaten to death on Marleen's thread and you are just covering the same ground. Your arguments are no different and your replies on this thread will not be any different. You don't have anything new that will change anyone's mind. And we sure can't change yours.

[Angela Campbell]

One other idea.....I for instance am transgendered. I want very much to be a girl and always have. Sometimes I dress as a man and sometimes I dress as a woman. Either way you look at it I am crossdressing and transgendered.

[whowhatwhen]

I am literally Popeye the Sailor man.

Edit: toot-toot

[MarinaKirax]

You cannot be transgendered physically -- that is being transsexual. One can only be transgendered emotionally/intellectually. Gender is what we think, sex is what we are.
I think, entymologically, that the term 'cross dress' refers to any person wearing clothing of the opposite sex. ('Sex' meaning the phenotype - the actual end result in front of you; either a male (XY) or a female (XX).)
Transgendered refers to a dissonance between one's outward sex and their inner identification of female or male.
You are suggesting that transgendered people can't possibly cross dress, and you are conflating the male/femaleness of sex and gender. Whether or not you feel female, if you are male sex and wear female clothing, you cross dress.
There is no colloquial term for how you dress according to your inner gender orientation. If there were, all transgendered people would be cross dressers (by wearing sex-appropriate clothing), up until the moment they became female, when their cross dressing would stop. And that makes my head hurt. :) MK

[Barbara Ella]

Freddie, I love the insights you force upon us. In this case you are perhaps right as far as those in this community view things.

the unfortunate complication to this is that we do not get to set the definitions, a reason most of us hate labels. "General society" gets to set the definitions that the majority will use when discussing a minority, until the minority throws a bitch fit.

Society just doesn't get it (us) and likely never will.

Whatever the reason one chooses to wear women's clothing, we are all sisters here and would hope we all appreciate the technical aspects of our mutual respect for each other.

Barbara

[Melissa_59]

If you’re really transgendered, either mentally or physically, how can you say that you’re a crossdresser?

Perhaps it's transgendered people dressing as their original biological sex - technically, I guess that could be considered crossdressing.

~Linebacker Melissa

[ColleenA]

Round and round it goes. Where it stops, nobody knows.

Oh, wait. It doesn't stop. It just keeps going round and round. There is never a consensus on the definition for some words frequently used here -- and I would suspect that the very nebulous "transgender" tops the list.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. “It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less.”
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There


FWIW, Freddy, the way you describe yourself works quite well for me, too. I am a man who crossdresses as a woman for a variety of reasons, which have to do with pleasing myself and being at peace with myself. I enjoy my feminine side, but have always known that I am not a woman in any way at all. My crossdressing is an activity in my life; it is not related to my identity and sense of self. Consequently, no matter that I support those who are transsexual in what is right in their lives, I generally don't feel I fit in when I visit LGBTQ centers.

[JadeEmber]

Again, this is a confusion about the word transgender. Not everyone who is transgendered is a cross-dresser, cross-dressing is a behavior within the category of transgendered. Really, btw, transgender is just ~cisgendered. It's everything that standard gender behavior doesn't encompass.

Now, there is a question of whether all crossdressers are necessarily transgendered -- ie, some forms of transvestite fetishism or a couple other cases. Personally, I don't think the general sense of transgender is _necessarily_ there, but I think it often is. However, if you wear panties because you think they're soft, and would buy male underwear if it came that way, and that is all it is, then perhaps. _Pure_ fetishism probably isn't, but even for fetishists, there's often a mix of things going on.

Just ask yourself, are you cisgendered? You can be a straight male or female transgendered individual. It just means you don't conform to being cisgendered.

I think the issue here is people assume that mtf or ftm transexual == transgendered, which is not the case.

This is, however, subtle. The definition has several clauses, one of which is personal identity. This really gets at _why_ one does something. For example, if one likes to go to parties (costumed masquerades or whatever) and cross dress, that might not imply one is a cross dresser. A friend of mine always went as a woman for Halloween (usually a greatly exaggerated one), but he was just cross dressing, not a cross dresser. Drag queens are also not necessarily transgendered as they do it for a job, although, in experience, many of them are to some degree. Cross dresser usually implies a stronger connection which usually implies a shift in personal idenity that incorporates some aspect of cross-gender identity, even if one feels that one's gender is one's birth sex. If you see what I mean?

To be clear, I'm not trying to be critical or hard-nosed here -- it _is_ complicated -- but I think the reaction against it is unnecessary. It's not a label, imo, it doesn't bind you to anything. Your experience of life has some commonalities with other people, but one might still not understand what it means to be mtf or ftm or genderless or bigendered, even if one falls in one domain of transgender. And, honestly, I suspect some cross dressers truly don't. Although, in my experience, most cross dressers, those who engage in cross dressers more systemically, tend to be outside the norm.

However, the resistance against the term just seems odd to me.

[sissystephanie]

Freddy, if you are a crossdresser you are, by definition, transgendered!! It is possible to be transgendered without crossdressing!! But if you were born and stlll are a male, and wear womens clothing you are transgendered. You may think of yourself as "only a crossdresser," but that is really not true!

[Duana]

Wow! A five paragraph dissertation on the semantics of crossdresser versus transgender. My question is, is it really that important? If so, let's go to the references rather than express opinion.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/transgender
of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or a transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender#Transvestite_or_cross-dresser
Wikipedia considers crossdresser one of several "Transgender Identities"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/transgender

1. a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.

http://transequality.org/Resources/NCTE_TransTerminology.pdf
"Transgender: An umbrella term for people whose gender identity, expression or behavior is different from those typically associated with their assigned sex at birth, including but not limited to transsexuals, cross-dressers, androgynous people, genderqueers, and gender non-conforming people.'

I'd love to find one definition which excludes crossdressers from the transgender umbrella but I can't.

[xdressed]

You cannot be transgendered physically -- that is being transsexual. One can only be transgendered emotionally/intellectually. Gender is what we think, sex is what we are.
I think, entymologically, that the term 'cross dress' refers to any person wearing clothing of the opposite sex. ('Sex' meaning the phenotype - the actual end result in front of you; either a male (XY) or a female (XX).)
Transgendered refers to a dissonance between one's outward sex and their inner identification of female or male.
You are suggesting that transgendered people can't possibly cross dress, and you are conflating the male/femaleness of sex and gender. Whether or not you feel female, if you are male sex and wear female clothing, you cross dress.
There is no colloquial term for how you dress according to your inner gender orientation. If there were, all transgendered people would be cross dressers (by wearing sex-appropriate clothing), up until the moment they became female, when their cross dressing would stop. And that makes my head hurt. :) MK

This is exactly what I would have said except better worded ^_^

[Ressie]

Eureka I'm transgendered! But I'm still one of those deviant fetish crossdressers. Now I can get some business cards printed. :D

Really, any male that dons women's apparel has to feel somewhat like a woman at some time making him transgendered at least some of the time. A non-transgender male would never wear female clothing.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I think Jacques Derrida must have been a crossdresser or transgendered. This community seems to like to deconstruct words. :)

[DeeInGeorgia]

Since I present as female at work and male at home, at least half the time I am crossdressing.

[Nanaya]

Freddy, if you are a crossdresser you are, by definition, transgendered!! It is possible to be transgendered without crossdressing!! But if you were born and stlll are a male, and wear womens clothing you are transgendered. You may think of yourself as "only a crossdresser," but that is really not true!

I find this insulting, honestly. I'm a crossdresser, but I'm in no way a transgender. It's not because I wear the clothes that I want to be female.

[Frédérique]

A controversial subject, to be sure, unless you read the OP carefully…:straightface:


You make a HUGE assumption there Freddy. You assume that once you go one way you cannot go back and forth. You don't have anything new that will change anyone's mind. And we sure can't change yours.

Going “back and forth” is indicative of crossdressing. The prefix “trans-“ indicates something else, and the misuse (in this instance) of that prefix is what I’m trying to get at. Look it up if you don’t believe me. YOU make a huge assumption that I, as a MtF crossdresser, must somehow be transgendered…

I assume from the warm, compassionate “tone” of your post that you’re TG, and you’re getting fed up my so-called attempts to change people’s minds about the term in question. In actual fact I wouldn’t waste my time trying to move solid rock – you can safely dismiss anything I write if it displeases you, but please don’t assume that MY mind is unchangeable. If you can come up with a few original, persuasive thoughts along the lines that I have indicated, stripped of the usual “holier than thou” rhetoric, you may surprise yourself. Try a little tenderness, my dear…


You cannot be transgendered physically -- that is being transsexual.

I don’t agree with that – if you are transsexual you are DEFINITELY transgendered…


Freddy, if you are a crossdresser you are, by definition, transgendered!!

I don’t agree with that, either! I mean, says WHO? I am not transgendered just because I, a male, put on a dress, or a pair of panties, or women’s shoes, anymore than I mysteriously become a professional carpenter as soon as I don a tool belt. This whole discussion boils down to what people have chosen to believe, and personal beliefs are numbingly intractable. Such intractability spawns discussion, although nothing ever really changes. The assumption around here is that ALL crossdressers are transgendered, and I disagree wholeheartedly with that notion. I KNOW it’s not true. I crossdress, yet, as I have carefully stated in the OP, no transformation (apart from visual or superficial) to the “other” gender takes place, can take place, or will take place in the foreseeable future…

If you wish to believe you’re transgendered, perhaps to assimilate feelings of community, or try to slot yourself into a self-image that is foggy at best, by all means continue to do so, but my argument is with incorrect yet all-encompassing accepted terminology that ignores input and meaningful discussion. We’re encouraged to question everything, so that’s precisely what I’m doing…

[Mona]

Hi Freddy,
I consider myself transgendered, I have feelings (born with) and mannerisms (learned) that are not of my birth sex. One of the ways I express all this is to crossdress. And I do also like my male self, it's just not quite so male as the general population of males.
Thank you for this, and all your interesting questions!
Mona

[LaraPeterson]

Only a bunch of women could argue to death a subject like this; therefore, you all (we all) must be transgendered, at least in our thinking mechanisms. A forum full of manly types would have put the subject to rest long ago with a short list of black and white definitions from which they would not move.

Frankly, I personally don't give a whip-stitch what you call me. I am who I am and that's all that I am (I think Popeye was quoted somewhere earlier). We are not defined, or should not be, by what we wear. We are defined by what we do, like it or not. When I'm dressed I want to think that I feel like a woman--only I'm not a woman so I don't really know how I feel. So, when I'm dressed and with a man, I try to act as I think a woman would act--only I'm a man in women's attire so, again, I'm only acting.

Do you see where I'm going with this? I can argue from both sides of the fence if I choose. I can be simply a crossdresser with bisexual or homosexual tendencies or I can be a transexual who thinks or wishes I were a woman. For me, and hear me, this is me speaking, the moment I crossed over the threshold of just dressing to going out with men to be as much like a woman as I can be/act, I became a transexual crossdresser.

I like to read and respond to a lot of the posts here because they shed light on many subjects I've thought about. But every time I read one of these technical sounding posts, I just want to laugh out loud.

[artofbalance]

I guess I look at as... why? Everyone takes the definitions of both words very personally. For a long time I took my wife watching any show having to do with cross dressers, drag queens, transgendered, transsexual people very personally. I think I took it as something personally attacking me, like pointing it out and making a big deal out of it, but now I realize it's something totally different. And now I walk around in dress the majority of the time when I'm home. I'm a cross dresser because I wear women's clothes, but I'm transgendered because I'm a woman with men's genitals.

[RiverdanceGirl]

There are points in the original post of this thread that I really do understand and have been thinking a lot about lately. I'm not really sure which part of this forum applies to me most - the crossdressing section or the trans section. Lately I have been feeling that when I put on clothes that society would label as women's, I do not in any way feel like I am crossdressing. They are my clothes just as much as those that society would label as men's. How can I be crossdressing wearing my own clothes? I used to consider myself in the terminology of the 70's a transvestite. I wore clothes that belonged to other people and lived with the very real risk of being caught and it not being accepted in any way. It is part of my personality that I hate being told what to do, so wearing women's clothes and risking being caught was thrilling. This was of course a long time before the internet and I had no reference point. I was in a male body and was excited by wearing women's clothes. I was a transvestite (once again, other people's words not mine). But I've always had this really strong desire to be female. I just hid it down deep inside of me and felt terribly anxious in social situations where I was trying to be the male I was supposed to be. In the past two years I have allowed myself to consider that what I felt inside all my life is real. I can't describe myself as a woman in a man's body, but at the same time I feel really uncomfortable describing myself as a man. It just feels so wrong for who I am. I feel that I am somewhere between male and female with a bias towards the female side. So I must be transgendered. But society would most likely be happier labelling me as a male who wears women's clothes. It's something that's constantly on my mind. If I'm not transgendered why is it constantly on my mind that I want so much to be female. But if I don't get the hormones and the surgery (I don't have the money and I'm terrified of the pain involved and afraid to upset the people I love) then which one am I? CD or TG?

[NathalieX66]

I'm going to bed. .....It's 11:30 pm, and I've had too much wine.

Some of us don't want the parameters of gender to describe ourselves. Putting ourselves in the gender binary is too constricting for some of us....me especially. I'll stick with being gender fluid.

[Marissa]

Being Transgendered must be H***.. if you find yourself caught between being a cd and a tg..wait.. can you really be a tg if you cd? or are you really a cd mimmicking a tg???? ouch.. as Nathalie said, too much vino.. still..I'm so happy to be a cd..and have to question that!!!!, then to be a tg and wonder about this thread...to question me..or you.. or anyone on who they are.. someday, i can be me.. and you can be you..without question.. someday..

BTW, Freddie does come up with some good thought processes.. :)

[KellyJameson]

Words are dangerous but necessary. We use words to better understand our environment and place in it. The problem with words comes from the labels that continue on even after that which is labeled ceases to exist or never did.

A transsexual must discover they are a transsexual by learning what a transsexual is and if this is them.

Before they learn they are TS they may "mistakenly" use other labels to identify themselves based on the behavior they are doing along with what others tell them and their own interpersonal experiences so they may identify as a crossdresser but it will not take long before they realize something else is going on.

This means that after the fact a TS was never a Crossdresser so was never crossdressing.

In my opinion a crossdresser is a "man in a dress" if he fully identifies as a man in a dress, which you always have done.

A TG carries both genders in their brain and expresses them to the degree each is represented. Both are "naturally" expressed so they are not crossdressers because when they are expressing the female half they are only dressing.

A TS carries only one gender in their brain and the opposite gender cannot be "naturally" expressed so they never were a man in a dress as "crossdressing".

A TS is a TG but a TG is not necessarily a TS.

Your words usually leave me with the impression that it is important to you that people see you as a man so that is your gender identity.

On this forum there seems to be many "men" in dresses but there are also many who are a mixture of both genders or female in gender but in the unfortunate position of being male bodied.

It is simply that the brain sex (gender) develops differently than the body sex as "sex"

Men in dresses as crossdressers always show a sensitivity that is greater than most men that draws them to the crossdressing to develop and experience this sensitivity along with possible fetish interests because their sexuality is affected by this sensitivity but they do lose their identity as men because it was fixed at birth.

This sensitivity is important because I think that is the starting point that is created in the womb so you are born sensitive that is also in TG and TS but goes much farther for TG and certainly TS.

This sensitivity runs through the whole spectrum.

Those whose identity at birth was fixed as female in a male body (TS) must find a solution with movement in one direction within the limits of their options and will only keep the male attributes out of necessity, not choice.

Those whose identity is not fixed (TG) will be fluid in their gender expression so for them the solution and desire is movement between two opposite poles to experience both the male and female self. " The woman within"

Regardless, it starts in the womb and possibly before and continues to be influenced by environment.

Its the brain being "gender" and your brain happens to be male and I do not recall ever hearing you talk about the woman within.

The only thing that stops the brain from being its "gender" is confusion and fear, otherwise it is simply a lack of resources and or opportunity.

The only way in my opinion to understand this, is to stop seeing the body and start seeing the person.

[Rianna Humble]

Splitting off from Marleena’s recent thread, itself splitting off from other discussions, I wish to ask this technical question: If you’re really transgendered, either mentally or physically, how can you say that you’re a crossdresser? It seems to me that if you’ve gone from one gender to the other, as the word transgender implies, and, in the case of MtF, you now identify as a woman, wouldn’t you just be naturally wearing clothes appropriate to your gender, and not crossdressing per se?

Freddy, I know you will disregard this reply, but nonetheless I offer it for those who do wish to understand

Being transgender does not imply that you have crossed irreversibly from one gender to another, although it can also encompass that aspect as well.

The vast majority of transgender people cross the gender divide and re-cross it at various times all their life. Just like a transatlantic traveller will normally go home after his journey so cross-dressers who are Transgender will express some femininity for a period then will return to their role as a man.

Those of us who are transsexual either have transitioned or are in transition from one gender expression to the other. So although we also come under the transgender umbrella, we no longer cross-dress as we wear the dress appropriate to our true gender 24/7/365.25

You live in the USA, but that does not make you a Californian. If we follow your logic though, all inhabitants of the USA must be in the same state.


Going “back and forth” is indicative of crossdressing. The prefix “trans-“ indicates something else, and the misuse (in this instance) of that prefix is what I’m trying to get at.

Instead of "get at" it would be more accurate for you to say "achieve" - you are the person trying to abuse the prefix "trans" to mean something that goes one way and can never return. That is simply not it's definition


which one am I? CD or TG?

I could have quoted more of your thread, but this indicates the confusion that Freddy is trying to sow. TG is not identical to TS

You can be transgender without being transsexual so the question is like asking "is that round green thing on my plate a pea, or is it a vegetable?"

[ReineD]

If you’re really transgendered, either mentally or physically, how can you say that you’re a crossdresser?

The act of "crossdressing" is what a transgendered person does.


It seems to me that if you’ve gone from one gender to the other, as the word transgender implies, and, in the case of MtF, you now identify as a woman, wouldn’t you just be naturally wearing clothes appropriate to your gender, and not crossdressing per se?

You're correct. If your birth sex is male and you do not consider yourself to be crossdressing when you wear women's clothing, then your brain gender is female. You are, however, a transsexual since it is likely that you will make an effort to alter your birth sex (male), through hormones and possibly SRS, to align your body to your brain gender and as much as possible, physically approximate the opposite sex (female). Hence the term "transsexual". This is pretty much a one way trip, unlike the journeys that other transgenders make who do not change their birth sex but who instead crossdress one day and not the next.


I identify as a male, yet I wear women’s clothing on occasion, so I am a MtF crossdresser. I am not interested in becoming a woman, or living my life as a woman, so I cannot, by definition, be called transgendered.

No matter how you identify, the fact is that you do cross a gender barrier by adopting the presentation of the opposite sex. And from your other posts, I gather that you also enjoy adopting the opposite sex's gender role on occasion. In addition, you've often said that you do not feel any affinity or connection with the members of your birth sex and you feel a greater affinity to females. Something motivates you to do this, Freddy, even if you do not wish to alter your sex since you are not transsexual. It is up to you to call it what you will, but you are crossing (trans) some (gender) barriers, in comparison to the birth males who have absolutely NO interest in dressing like, thinking like, or behaving like a woman, nor to they feel aligned with the female gender in any way.

[Joanne f]

I agree with you in that if you truly believe that you are transgender in the way that you are both male and female then to your way of thinking it is not logical to think that you cross dress as you are female inside , so it is more of a word or if you must " a label" that society puts on you to describe what they can see which is often quite a bit different than what you see/think , and to be honest how would they know what was going on in your mine so they will see a cross dresser , so by my way of thinking if you are TG then no you are not cross dressing , it is this" Why" you are dressed in the clothes that you are which holds the answer again to this question . I know I am a bit mad but still think that men in skirts do not cross dress, cross dressers are not transgendered and transgendered are not cross dressing but the biggest part of society will see it all as one hence this umbrella thing , maybe they should make an umbrella with different coloured segments in it and you just stand under the colour that most describes you , mind you that is going to be a bit awkward if you are letting someone share you umbrella as to which section they get :D

[kimdl93]

I accept the definition of TG to be encompassing of a variety of behaviors, as per Shelly's dictionary reference. It's a big tent that includes many behaviors.

[Angela Campbell]

Only a bunch of women could argue to death a subject like this; therefore, you all (we all) must be transgendered, at least in our thinking mechanisms.

What a nice compliment. Thank you!

[DonniDarkness]

“The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: Be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge”Freddy,

Do you know what the difference is between a Crossdresser who claims to not be TG

And a Crossdresser who identifies as TG?

Ill give you one hint:

194943

So your a crossdresser huh? Me too.

Reading threads and getting involved here over the years has taught me something about our community. This is my perspective: Crossdressers argue the TG definition because it implies they must be responsible for their own closets.

There is a constant flow of people who come here for knowledge as to why they are who they are. When they show up here, looking to others for acceptance and guidance...or that search for the truth they long for within themselves, all our community can truly be responsible for is this sacred argument amongst ourselves.

Why would you be so afraid of the label? Cmon Freddy... we know you have an active imagination....So tell us what is so bad about being labeled in a group with us?
Do you need that separation from the group to keep your own identity in tune with who you are? For what purpose? To what end? We are your brothers and sisters but yet you stand at the edge of the field and tell us your a part of us? Why not stand with us? Why not bring your little light of diversity into the group and strengthen us as a whole? Why not?....Why hold on to the perpetuation of your own closet.....

Is it fear? Why do we scare you?

....Just know this: If your heart ever leads you over to our side of the closet, we will be here ready and willing to embrace your identity, after all, your our brother in which we "vest" with......

Smile Freddy the worlds not so bad,

-Donni-

[Frédérique]

Only a bunch of women could argue to death a subject like this; therefore, you all (we all) must be transgendered, at least in our thinking mechanisms. A forum full of manly types would have put the subject to rest long ago with a short list of black and white definitions from which they would not move.

On the contrary, I detect a LOT of male “chip on the shoulder” thinking and reactions in this part of the forum. Being a male (pardon me if I keep bringing this up), you are correct to say that males will not move from whatever defensive position they have constructed – as such, at this point I have resigned myself to achieving little with these essay-length explorations into the terminology we have come to embrace. Despite this, I enjoy the give-and-take, both negative and positive…


On this forum there seems to be many "men" in dresses but there are also many who are a mixture of both genders or female in gender but in the unfortunate position of being male bodied. It is simply that the brain sex (gender) develops differently than the body sex as "sex."

I’m pleased to see you, Kelly, and I always appreciate your well-reasoned prose! As you can see, I’m trying, once again, to ascertain “what happened” to the language we have all agreed upon, or, more specifically, why certain terms rise above others in the queer hierarchy. I happen to agree with your assessment...


Instead of "get at" it would be more accurate for you to say "achieve" - you are the person trying to abuse the prefix "trans" to mean something that goes one way and can never return. That is simply not it's definition.

I never disregard anybody’s intelligent reply, so you’re wrong there. That’s what it (trans-) does mean, or refer to, or imply, and, because of this, I think it’s a little extreme to call ALL MtF crossdressers transgendered. I know the term has been accepted for better or worse, and my pleas for clarification will go unheeded. However, let’s not derail the topic. If you’re transgendered, surely you’re doing something other than, or more evolved than, JUST crossdressing. As for me trying to achieve something with this increasingly pointless exercise, let me just remind you that I, the crossdresser, always do things just for fun. I’m just trying to speak up for us non-TG MtF crossdressers among us from time to time…


No matter how you identify, the fact is that you do cross a gender barrier by adopting the presentation of the opposite sex.

Yes, that’s a good way to put it, but I would add that a crossdresser only goes so far with his (or her) presentation of the opposite sex, i.e. as far as they wish to go, given the circumstances of their emotional state and/or what they wish to accomplish. I feel that TG’s transcend (another trans- word!) this by doing something they MUST do, while I, by definition, am less seriously involved. I am definitely hovering near this “gender barrier” you refer to, even crossing it at times, but I never get too far away from “home.”


Cmon Freddy... we know you have an active imagination....So tell us what is so bad about being labeled in a group with us?

Well, I don’t like “group” thinking, or group anything, probably because I was excluded from groups as a child, plus I come from a long line of free-thinkers, but that’s neither here nor there. I suppose, if someone’s going to label me, I would prefer to be labeled accurately, and not be forced to adhere to this “one size fits all” way of thinking. However, that’s also off topic – this is a discussion allegedly about TG individuals perhaps doing something beyond crossdressing, yet here we are, gathered together under this imaginary “umbrella” that Kim has referred to…

In regards to this topic, I’ve been thinking about a meeting I attended many years ago in Boston, MA. I had just won an artist’s fellowship, so I was obliged to attend a get-together of recipients in the state council’s large conference room. Topics relating to the artistic “community” were raised, including the political ideals espoused in this overtly liberal setting (Massachusetts). I’m pretty open-minded, but I felt somewhat alone and detached (and out of place) amongst my more engaged (and worldly) peers. I learned that I was expected to be something more than just an artist – I had to hold the imaginary “banner” of artistic expression high overhead, as others had done, and align myself with a certain way of communal thinking. Frankly, I would rather just paint my pictures, thank you, and leave it at that…

Here’s another odd way of looking at it (the current topic, I mean). Let’s say I like to take off all my clothes from time to time, just for fun – do I have to label myself a naturist to discuss issues of nudity with other unclothed hedonists, and maybe gather together with them to feel better about myself, even referring to myself as a naturist to fit in with the others? I feel good NOW, for crying out loud – can’t I just be nude and happy on my own terms? Why seek out fellow pleasure-seekers to begin with? Well, it gets lonely at times out here in the “forest,” doesn’t it?

I appreciate all of the responses so far (even Lorileah's)...:heehee:

[Claire Cook]

Going “back and forth” is indicative of crossdressing. The prefix “trans-“ indicates something else, and the misuse (in this instance) of that prefix is what I’m trying to get at. Look it up if you don’t believe me. YOU make a huge assumption that I, as a MtF crossdresser, must somehow be transgendered…

Well, we certainly have "gone back on forth" on this one, have we not? I'll stick with the definition that several have given and that I think is pretty standard -- TG is a spectrum that includes us all, from occasional panty (or boxer, to include FTM) wearers to post-op.

So .. about "trans", let's see. I take a transcontinental trip from here in Florida. I can either stay on the West Coast permanently, or buy a roundtrip ticket, or spend some time in CA and later come back to Florida if I like, or do all but the former as often as I like (within the limits of my credit card..). "Trans" as in transgendered (as opposed to TS) doesn't imply direction, or frequency, or permanence -- only "across". At least to me.

Too bad I can't make those reservations on Trans World Airways ...

[Monicamaryjay]

I think discussing beliefs is how we come to the understanding of how we FEEL. Do you feel more like a woman when you dress or do you still feel like a man?

For years I was puzzled and confused about this.. As I explored it further I realized that in order to feel complete I need to express the feminine part of me. I do feel transgendered but I can go back and forth, albeit in an anrogynous manner. So whether I crossdress to appear more male or more female, I still crossdress and I do so because I feel transgendered.

Sometimes our intellect can get in the way of just being and feeling and accepting ourselves no matter what theories come up.

So if you feel transgendered, I think you are. If you don't feel it, then you probably are not at this point. You may feel it later, however, which sugests a continuum of feelings and behaviours.
IMHO,
Monica

[Foxglove]

Hi, Freddy! I for one have greatly enjoyed this discussion. People always say they dislike labels, but as I've pointed out before, labels can be very useful because in discussing them, by figuring out how accurate or inaccurate they may be, you sharpen your understanding of the subject matter. Eventually, you adopt new labels that better reflect reality. And then you can start arguing about them, and you further refine your understanding of reality. The problem we currently have is that we have umpteen varieties of TG people (oops! Sorry! People of our sort) and we're trying to fit them into three categories--CD, TG and TS. The divisions are bursting at the seams.

It's precisely discussions like these that have taught me so much about TGism (oops! Sorry! People of our sort). In recent times, I've come out to lots of people--most recently my brother and sister--and lots of these people have asked me about TGism and what it all means. I've been in a position to explain lots of things because of what I've learned on this forum.

For me, use of terms depends on context. When I'm talking to cispeople who aren't well up on the issue, I'll lump CDers under the TG umbrella. I think that's appropriate because we're similar enough that it makes little difference to cispeople. But strictly between you and me, I'd use this term "CDer" differently. That's because you and I are aware of the main difference between us--you identify as male, I identify as female. I think you prefer to avoid applying the term "TG" to yourself, whereas I certainly don't see myself as a CDer.



I can most accurately be termed a “crossdresser,” because I cross back and forth between the genders via clothing, no big deal, and no further explanation is needed…




No matter how you identify, the fact is that you do cross a gender barrier by adopting the presentation of the opposite sex. And from your other posts, It is up to you to call it what you will, but you are crossing (trans) some (gender) barriers, in comparison to the birth males who have absolutely NO interest in dressing like, thinking like, or behaving like a woman, nor to they feel aligned with the female gender in any way.

These two quotes explain why, at least in conversation with cispeople, I'll include CDers under the TG umbrella. "Trans" means "across"--which implies crossing the gender line. CDers do cross that line with their clothing, so that's what makes them trans. But of course, this assumes that we're treating the terms "gender" and "sex" as interchangeable terms, which of course they're not in other contexts, so there's still that bit of confusion. But don't worry: we'll get it all sorted out eventually.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[TeresaL]

Looks like that once more, two definitions of the same word are in conflict.

One group is breaking the word into syllables and applying Latin type interpolation by defining each part of the the word. That definition produces trans (change) gender (male or female). So to them, it means going back and forth between being a dude or woman. This definition relinquishes the word transgender as exclusive to only one elite group - serious cross dressers and maybe some but not all transsexuals. The latter group however, may abhor changing back to birth gender, so they may not wish to be included as trans. That narrows the field down to the middlers, and removes any umbrella connotation.

While the other group is using the actual intent of the word as it was handed from the psychological gatekeepers. Its a medical term of sorts coined for convenience. That group simply defines the word transgender as "umbrella." They are not breaking the actual word into two pieces and using that as their definition. It covers the whole spectrum.

The first group isn't actually wrong, they simply shun the medical type connotation in favor of their own definition, which in effect renders transgender ...

NULL AND VOID

[Frédérique]

I think discussing beliefs is how we come to the understanding of how we FEEL. Do you feel more like a woman when you dress or do you still feel like a man?

The short answer is that I don’t feel like a woman when I crossdress, because I have no idea how a woman feels. A transgendered person, on the other hand, would feel like a woman, I assume...


Looks like that once more, two definitions of the same word are in conflict.

I just wonder why the term transgender has been adopted to include all types of crossdressers, that’s all – wouldn’t gender-shifter, or a similar term, be more apropos? In the spirit of the NHL’s announcement of a new CBA agreement earlier today, I will concede that crossdressing is, or can be, a "transgendered act," and crossdressing itself is a kind of transgendered experience, but I do not become transgendered by wearing women’s clothes, and an insistence on being transgendered has not initiated my urge to crossdress. Trust me, it hasn’t. It happened the other way around, in my case, and awareness about transgender came later. When you crossdress, it’s only natural to wonder about your sexuality (societal pressure, I believe), but my feet are firmly planted in my birth gender, no matter what type of shoes I choose to wear. So, you could say that the MtF crossdresser has feelings about transgender “come along for the ride” when he dresses up, whether he wants them to or not...

Which leads me to this point – MtF crossdressing is LIKE an amusement park ride, or any ride, a ride of transgendered proportions if you will, but the crossdresser only rides for a while before going home and changing back into a pumpkin (BTW, I get dizzy easily). He has to, because he is not genetically predisposed to stay on the ride 24/7. To some, crossdressing is a pleasant diversion, nothing more and nothing less, so all this expected association with TG takes the bloom off the pretty rose we are trying to admire. To be fair, there are perhaps a million or more shades of grey between a man who only wears panties under his male clothes, and a transgendered individual who lives their life contrary to their birth gender all the live long day. I think it’s a bit farfetched to include the hobbyist or fetishist crossdresser under the imaginary transgendered umbrella, IMHO, and unfair to TG’s, I might add...

I do recognize the reason why this umbrella has been created, of course – people want to belong to something, or have their lifestyle recognized and understood, hopefully to have their rights as human beings protected, same as any other group. That’s all well and good IF you’re genuinely transgendered, but, speaking for myself, I don’t fit in. I would be very uneasy sitting in a room amongst a group of actual TG’s. Why? Well, there’s nothing I could talk about with them. We may all be dressed relatively the same, but for different reasons, plus I don’t have to be dressed as a woman, while they, by definition, MUST dress as women (they're transgendered, remember?). That would make me very nervous. I mean, I can’t say something like the crossdressers.com standard, “What color panties are you wearing?” because I wouldn’t pose such a question to a woman, or a group of women. I am a gentleman, you know. Maybe you didn’t know that. Anyway, they (the TG’s) either are women, or they believe themselves to be women, while I am just dressing as a woman, i.e. crossdressing. I could, and probably would, ask another MtF CD about his/her chromatic choice of panties, no doubt expecting a girly giggle or two, but that’s different. See what I’m talking about?

I’ll confine my weird analogies to LGBT, OK? If a woman kisses another woman now and then, does that mean she’s a lesbian? Not necessarily, right? If a man has a homosexual experience, does it automatically follow that he is a gay male? It depends, I suppose, but bear with me. Just because I’m a male, yet I wear women’s clothing on occasion, doesn’t mean that I’m transgendered. Oh, I might be, or I might want to be recognized as transgendered for one reason or another, but some of us just crossdress for the sake of crossdressing – the author of this piece is one of them, and I know there are others out there, somewhere beyond the fringe of the imaginary umbrella...

I’ll tell you what starts discussions like this – someone (no names, please) will say something like, “ALL X must be Y, and we can forget about Z!” This happened over on that “Gender and Sex” thread the other day, and such stubborn pronouncements of this nature always make me respond with multiple paragraphs. That in turn spawns another thread, with more verbiage and TG rhetoric like, “Oh yeah, as a matter of fact X IS always Y!” leading to this thread, which I would prefer not to write, truth be told, but somebody has to question this stuff and initiate discussion for "ordinary" crossdressers. A space has been provided to do just that. I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to understand the basic premise I have outlined. I try to word these things very carefully, which means that I DO NOT mean “achieve” when I write “get at,” OK? Give me a break, and please give a break to all the crossdressers among the TG’s...

PS - We've only just begun...:whew!:

[Kate Simmons]

Well, in any case my friend, I don't think you can argue if Dr. Frank N Furter was trans or not as he sang: "I'm just a sweet transvestite from transsexual Transylvania", but I digress........:)

[vivianann]

I consider myself to be transgendered, there is a wide spectrum in the transgendered community with many nich's. we all fit in some where in that spectrum, I was born male, yet I identify more as female, I dont want srs, however I prefer to dress and live as a woman, I am more comfortable in my skin when dressed as a woman than I am dressed as a man. for me I am crossdressing when I am dressed as a man now, I used to feel I was crossdressing when wearing dresses, but over the years crossdressing has evolved the other way. Being transgender and being Transexual are different beings altogether, you are one or the other, pick your side.

[ReineD]

The short answer is that I don’t feel like a woman when I crossdress, because I have no idea how a woman feels. A transgendered person, on the other hand, would feel like a woman, I assume...

Just want to point out that a transgendered person also does not know what it feels like to be anyone other than who he or she is. It's just a matter of using two different words "male who crossdresses" or "transgender" to describe the same condition.




I just wonder why the term transgender has been adopted to include all types of crossdressers, that’s all – wouldn’t gender-shifter, or a similar term, be more apropos?

There was a need to come up with a term that recognized the 3%-5% of people who cross the gender boundaries (no matter to what degree) from people who have no wish to do this. "Transgender" seemed the most descriptive, I suppose.




In the spirit of the NHL’s announcement of a new CBA agreement earlier today, I will concede that crossdressing is, or can be, a "transgendered act," and crossdressing itself is a kind of transgendered experience, but I do not become transgendered by wearing women’s clothes, and an insistence on being transgendered has not initiated my urge to crossdress. Trust me, it hasn’t.

Again, I think you are confusing the term "transgender" with "transsexual". Transgender does not mean that a person feels they were born in the wrong body.

What is your definition of "transsexual" and are you among the people who take "transgender" to mean some sort of middle ground between "crossdresser" and "transsexual"? It isn't. See the point above.

[JadeEmber]

For historical purposes, the term transgender was primarily used (and invented) to describe cross dressers. In 1965, Owen used it to distinguish cross dressers from transsexuals (on the point that transvestites were not primarily acting for reasons of sexuality). The term was used later by Prince again to differentiate cross dressers in 1969. It was apparently a term in common usage as an umbrella term by the mid 70s. However, understanding of the whole area has vastly grown since those days, so there's a wide range falling into the transgender rubric.

Really, though, at a certain point the term came to mean what it means now because there was a decision to renormalize language used. It used to be that "normal" and "abnormal" were used in certain views of gender behavior. There was regular gender behavior and transgender behavior. So, the terms were set into their more modern form as "cisgender" and "transgender," which have come to common usage. Cisgender behavior concerns matching birth sex and gender behavior. Transgender is anything that does not conform, which is culturally relative. Now, sometimes people don't like this kind of renaming, but that's what it means.

So, really, it's just a way of not using abberrant or abnormal in discussion; instead, the words express that the behavior is different and potentially valid within its own context.

The trick about this whole discussion is that I think there is an underlaying topic that many people _are_ interested in, but it gets lost by associating transgender with transsexualism. I think people are asking the question of whether one can be 100% male (whatever that is) and still express cross dressing. Then there's the question of what being "male" and "female" really means. Is there something else? Why do some people differentiate themselves into two personas, but other fuse them? That's the discussion that I think would be more interesting, and which I think is really under the surface in all of these discussions.

[ReineD]

So, really, it's just a way of not using abberrant or abnormal in discussion; instead, the words express that the behavior is different and potentially valid within its own context.

Thanks for the history lesson. :) If I were a crossdresser, I'd much rather be referred to as "transgender" than "abnormalgender".

[Marleena]

Freddy some information from an expert in the field Ann Vitale, below.

Also keep in mind that in the MTF category CDer's are the majority here. You don't have to feel abandoned here.

************************************************** ************************************************

CATEGORY 3. Crossdressing vs Transsexualism



1. What is difference between a male cross dresser and a man wanting to be a woman?

I have never met a genetic male who has gone on to transition to the female gender role that did not start out as a cross dresser. However, it does not mean that every genetic male that cross dresses will go on to transition. Keep in mind that cross dressing is a temporary way for a genetic male to experience femaleness. For some genetic males that short period of experiencing the feminine complements their sense of being male. They may make some minor modifications of their body to enhance their feminine appearance when dressed such as beard and body hair removal but they have no difficulty holding on to their core sense of being male.

Genetic males who eventually go on to transition permanently to the female gender role (transsexuals) on the other hand, cross dress to ease gender expression deprivation. Dressing is serious business for these individuals. It is only during these cross dressing periods that they can find a sense of wholeness. Unlike the cross dresser described above, transsexuals have little or no love for their alienated sense of masculinity and they are more then willing to give up its influence on their lives via hormones and surgery.

7. What is the difference between someone who identifies as "transgender" and someone who identifies as "transsexual"?
The term "transgender" was coined by Dr. Virginia Prince in the mid 1970's to differentiate those individuals who wanted to live in the opposite gender role without surgery from those that wanted surgery. Those individuals who wish or have had sex reassignment surgery were then and still are referred to as transsexuals. However, over the years the term "Transgender" has been modified through popular usage to be an umbrella term covering everyone who has some propensity to spend at least some time expressing themselves in the gender role opposite of that to which they have been assigned.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8. Is the term "transsexual" politically correct, why or why not? And when did this change take place?
The term "transsexual" is not only politically correct it is the preferred term to be used in referring to individuals who use hormonal and surgical means to permanently alter their appearance to match their internal sense of gender.

[Angela Campbell]

Looks like that once more, two definitions of the same word are in conflict.

One group is breaking the word into syllables and applying Latin type interpolation by defining each part of the the word. That definition produces trans (change) gender (male or female). So to them, it means going back and forth between being a dude or woman. This definition relinquishes the word transgender as exclusive to only one elite group - serious cross dressers and maybe some but not all transsexuals. The latter group however, may abhor changing back to birth gender, so they may not wish to be included as trans. That narrows the field down to the middlers, and removes any umbrella connotation.

While the other group is using the actual intent of the word as it was handed from the psychological gatekeepers. Its a medical term of sorts coined for convenience. That group simply defines the word transgender as "umbrella." They are not breaking the actual word into two pieces and using that as their definition. It covers the whole spectrum.

The first group isn't actually wrong, they simply shun the medical type connotation in favor of their own definition, which in effect renders transgender ...

NULL AND VOID

I think you got it wrong. It is not changing back and forth when you break down the word. It is change of one to the other, not going back and forth although it can mean going back in forth it is not necessarily so. So this definition easily fits either crossdressers or transexuals.

[ReineD]

From A Vitale:
Genetic males who eventually go on to transition permanently to the female gender role (transsexuals) on the other hand, cross dress to ease gender expression deprivation. Dressing is serious business for these individuals. It is only during these cross dressing periods that they can find a sense of wholeness. Unlike the cross dresser described above, transsexuals have little or no love for their alienated sense of masculinity and they are more then willing to give up its influence on their lives via hormones and surgery.

Another thing worth mentioning, that I've frequently read in the TS section: TSs reach a point where the crossdressing simply is not enough, in fact it does not relieve the gender dysphoria, it makes it seem worse since the dressing is a sore reminder of the body/brain-gender mismatch.

[Angela Campbell]

Another thing worth mentioning, that I've frequently read in the TS section: TSs reach a point where the crossdressing simply is not enough, in fact it does not relieve the gender dysphoria, it makes it seem worse since the dressing is a sore reminder of the body/brain-gender mismatch.

I really did not need to hear that.......

[ReineD]

Almostalady, sorry ... just repeating what I've read. :sad:

Maybe not everyone goes through this and maybe this has to do with the severity of gender dysphoria.

[Michelle M]

Freddy, you sure give me a lot to think about.

I do buy your surface premise. Yes, if she looks female, smells female, identifies as female, then she's not really crossdressing anymore. But let's not kick them out of the club, some of them are really cool, and lots of fun to talk to.

Now, like you, I regularly trans-vest. It's fun and it feels good. Also, I like to be pretty.
But, I would also propose that we do transgender.

Wait...hear me out, I read all of yours.

I don't see transgender as an all-or-nothing proposition. Let's say there are degrees, and we go in for a dip from time to time. This is nothing sexual. I'm talking from an emotional point of view.

I have many women in my life, and I just can't often grab an understanding of their way of thinking. Where as we are very logical, systematic thinkers, their thoughts have a strong emotional basis, or even root. I would like to understand this or at least get a glimpse. So I dress the part, and try to gain some of this understanding.

I could go on and on with this, it seemed very important to us back in college. Now, I don't really need to change the world, I just want to sit down and chat with my girls, and sometimes understand where they are coming from.

So for now I dress the woman, I feel the woman, I be the woman. Sometimes, I trans-gender.
Michelle

[Angela Campbell]

Almostalady, sorry ... just repeating what I've read. :sad:

Maybe not everyone goes through this and maybe this has to do with the severity of gender dysphoria.

Its ok, I am hoping it doesn't get worse. So far I am ok with sometimes being feminine, but it is scary if it usually excalates. Maybe not for me. I hope.

[JadeEmber]

Freddy some information from an expert in the field Ann Vitale, below.

Also keep in mind that in the MTF category CDer's are the majority here. You don't have to feel abandoned here.

************************************************** ************************************************

CATEGORY 3. Crossdressing vs Transsexualism



1. What is difference between a male cross dresser and a man wanting to be a woman?

I have never met a genetic male who has gone on to transition to the female gender role that did not start out as a cross dresser. However, it does not mean that every genetic male that cross dresses will go on to transition. Keep in mind that cross dressing is a temporary way for a genetic male to experience femaleness. For some genetic males that short period of experiencing the feminine complements their sense of being male. They may make some minor modifications of their body to enhance their feminine appearance when dressed such as beard and body hair removal but they have no difficulty holding on to their core sense of being male.

Genetic males who eventually go on to transition permanently to the female gender role (transsexuals) on the other hand, cross dress to ease gender expression deprivation. Dressing is serious business for these individuals. It is only during these cross dressing periods that they can find a sense of wholeness. Unlike the cross dresser described above, transsexuals have little or no love for their alienated sense of masculinity and they are more then willing to give up its influence on their lives via hormones and surgery.

7. What is the difference between someone who identifies as "transgender" and someone who identifies as "transsexual"?
The term "transgender" was coined by Dr. Virginia Prince in the mid 1970's to differentiate those individuals who wanted to live in the opposite gender role without surgery from those that wanted surgery. Those individuals who wish or have had sex reassignment surgery were then and still are referred to as transsexuals. However, over the years the term "Transgender" has been modified through popular usage to be an umbrella term covering everyone who has some propensity to spend at least some time expressing themselves in the gender role opposite of that to which they have been assigned.

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8. Is the term "transsexual" politically correct, why or why not? And when did this change take place?
The term "transsexual" is not only politically correct it is the preferred term to be used in referring to individuals who use hormonal and surgical means to permanently alter their appearance to match their internal sense of gender.

Thanks Marleena! That's a more accurate statement of what I was referring to :)

[Marleena]

Thanks Marleena! That's a more accurate statement of what I was referring to :)

It's basically what you've said along with Reine and some of the others. I needed to touch on the TS side of things too for clarity here.:)

[TeresaL]

I think you got it wrong. It is not changing back and forth when you break down the word. It is change of one to the other, not going back and forth although it can mean going back in forth it is not necessarily so. So this definition easily fits either crossdressers or transexuals.

Yeah, I was trying too hard to understand Freddie's reasoning in the first post explaining transgender by breaking the word up and redefining it. Transgender in my usage has always been the "umbrella" definition which includes most all of us here except cisgender folks.

[lauren_m]

Yeah, I was trying too hard to understand Freddie's reasoning in the first post explaining transgender by breaking the word up and redefining it. Transgender in my usage has always been the "umbrella" definition which includes most all of us here except cisgender folks.

My understanding is the same as Teresa's (and many others'), but labels are what we make of them, so there's really no right or wrong answers. For me personally, I think i understand where Freddie is coming from, because I definitely consider myself TG, and I've long questioned whether I'm TS, but I've never felt totally comfortable referring to myself as a CD. I know that CDing is, for many, a term that includes more than simply wearing women's clothes, but I've always felt that it fails to really capture my situation. On the other hand, I don't mind others calling me a CD, and the frequency/proficiency/depth of my experiences as Lauren seem pretty close to those of many CDs, so maybe that's what I am. Who knows? :)

[TeresaL]

... but labels are what we make of them, so there's really no right or wrong answers.
Ditto, this does appear to be another label thread.



... I definitely consider myself TG, and I've long questioned whether I'm TS, but I've never felt totally comfortable referring to myself as a CD.

I as well question where where I fit in, but can come into close approximation with the Benjamin/Kensey (transgender?) contingency chart. I'm about the third or fourth on the scale. I think the scale is numbered up to six or seven, with levels of our (TG?) proclivity.



On the other hand, I don't mind others calling me a CD, and the frequency/proficiency/depth of my experiences as Lauren seem pretty close to those of many CDs, so maybe that's what I am. Who knows? :)

I don't know either, but wish someone would get settled in with this new label and pass the word on to all the professionals and the congregation so that our club can be renamed. :daydreaming:

[Beverley Sims]

Yep! It is just a label.

[NicoleScott]

This discussion will pop up occasionally, and always without any resolution. That's because we can't agree on the definition of a crossdresser, and we can't agree on the definition of transgendered. When you (anybody) say transgender, you mean one thing and I hear another. And vice versa. It's hopeless until we begin the discussion with definitions, for the purpose of the discussion.

[Rianna Humble]

Nicole is right about people not accepting the definitions. It does not help that the original poster appears to want to redefine words to his own ends.

[missmars]

Yes. M If. I sometimes dressed as woman and sometimes man.

[Ambrosia]

I am a TG then by definition. I didn't care for the term cross dresser anyway. Seemed like it marginalized people too closely. I feel like a woman even when without the clothing, make up, wigs, etc.

[April_Ligeia]

I don't understand this thread. If you crossdress, how can you NOT be transgender? Crossdressing is a transgender act.

[PaulaQ]

I don't think splitting hairs over definitions makes much sense, to be honest.

We are, most of us, swimming upstream in one form or another, against both social mores and genetics. What you call the struggle is sort of irrelevant compared to the struggle itself.

[Kayla Shadows]

Labels,definition,books,the internet,what people say..I follow none of it.

I've had conversations with a few TS girls that turned out pretty brutal. Going as far as wanting to fight me because I just believe something different.

Human beings have a desire to feel special. What they do needs to feel important and unique. Some expect to be held at a higher standard over those who have not accomplished as much.In some conversation the meaning of TS can be very one sided. Their definition cannot be challenged and you are just wrong or fake. Having a opinion is hard. For some it's probably difficult to imagine that somebody could find peace in life without a jump to hormones.That can't be true to them.They just did all this stuff and that's the only way.

I always believed that you are who you are.Body modification and taking something doesn't make you who you are inside.Why would anybody do any of that if you weren't TS to begin with.Then there are those who transitioned to find out it wasn't the best choice for them. Were they real in the eyes of the group because they were following along at the time?

Reality is only an illusion.

Listen to all.Follow none.

[suchacutie]

Hmmm, now why does this all seem so simple to me?

1) I have a definate feminine side but was born male, so I do cross the gender line and am, thus, transgendered.

2) I cover my male body in feminine attire, to the nines most of the time, and am, thus, a cross-dresser.

Works for me.

[melissakozak]

Crossdressing is a behavior, being transgendered is not. Regardless of what I am wearing, I feel transgendered. So, when I put on my male attire, I present as a male to the world, and when I put on my female attire, I present fully and want to be treated as I am presenting....female....so, the clothes are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. I get absolutely zero stimulation from silky fabrics and frankly, find bras to be a pain in the necessary ass to help me create who I feel I am on the inside. The problem with all of these labels is that they are mainly limiting, not defining. Based on my feelings, some CDs think I am TS; based on my behavior, some TSs lump me with being a CD.

Gender dysphoria is a complex internal state of being, and thus, the manifestation of and creation of the female persona is also complex and moves right along a continuum of sort. Some of us need to be on HRT, some of us live part time, full time, partly dress, fully dress, go out, stay private, and on and on and on. Since crossdressing, per se, is viewed very negatively in our culture by natal males, it is no wonder we can't make sense of who we are, how we got here and what we need to do about it. Thank goodness for places like this where we can share our feelings, behaviors, motives and desires.

Toss away the labels and simply explore who you are and what your needs and wants are. Peace....Melissa.

[jenni_xx]

I enjoy reading your posts Freddy, and you ask some really interesting questions. I do feel as though a lot of the questions you pose don't have a definitive answer, and thus the replies will only express people's opinions, as opposed to facts. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

But if we are to conclude anything, it's that none of us, outside of our own opinions, don't really have a clue. We just go about our business, doing what makes us happy, without much thought needed for the whys and what fors, or with any real intent to get to the bottom of our persona and truly understand what it's really all about. Sure, we may broach the subject every now and again, we may even try to rationalise it, but ultimately to no prevail. Which is hardly surprising all said and done, because we're all using labels that others have bestowed upon us. Labels that at their core are intent on bracketing us within a certain group. Yet the truth is that we're just as different from one another as anyone/everyone else is. There may be commonality - i.e. our dressing, but take two men, both of whom like to wear denim shirts for example, and probe a little deeper and you'll find two people of different ideologies, different cultural backgrounds, different religious and political beliefs, in short, two different people.

I've no more in common with any other member of this site as I do with any stranger in the street. Why does the next man/woman vote for a certain political party? Is it because they are the same as me? No, it isn't. Just as why another man has different reasons for wanting to wear what is traditionally regarded as female attire to what my reasons are.

So, to get back to, and to address your question - it's just a label. If you're really transgendered then of course you can still crossdress. Crossdressing is an external expression of what lies within. Presenting oneself externally with fashion that is traditionally associated to a gender that is opposite to our external identity. Transgender, in this respect, is exactly the same. The difference being the extent in which one embraces it, the level one needs to take it to. A crossdresser will be happy presenting themselves as a woman while feeling content within a man's body. A transexual however will never be content with their birth gender and so a further change will be sought.

But the answer to your question, for you, lies only within you. But the bottom line, for me, is in asking your question you're merely pandering to labels. And that can be restrictive and unhealthy. I'm a man. I'm a gay man. I'm a crossdresser. But that's not all I am. I'm a person, an individual, and never will I allow myself to be personified by labels that have been created by others in a deep-rooted need to put individuals into brackets.

[darla_g]

Frédérique thanks for your original thesis statement. I think what you have expressed sums up my attitude as well. I like to dress, but am perfectly happy with my male gender.

I like the analogy of a train or bus with all its stops. This is my stop coming up here, I recognize someone else may be a bit further along and some may take the train all the way to end and become a woman once they reach that point. I support my fellow riders with their journey.

[Frédérique]

I enjoy reading your posts Freddy, and you ask some really interesting questions. I do feel as though a lot of the questions you pose don't have a definitive answer, and thus the replies will only express people's opinions, as opposed to facts. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

I field a lot of expressed opinions; in fact I sometimes have to retreat to my dollhouse of solitude for recovery! I think we’re trying to discuss topics that don’t really have any true facts – can feelings lead to facts, or can facts even exist in this forest of feelings? I like this arena of the human soul and the fact that we’re doing something that cannot be pinned down one way or another. It makes us, the crossdressers, happy (to a certain degree), but it causes consternation for nearly everyone else. These questions pop into my wig-covered head whether I want them to or not, so I bring them here...

Thanks for making the effort to read my posts – I appreciate it...:)