I need info.

[aalynn88]

Hi, I'm Lynn. I've crossdressed my entire adult life but just recently started going out as a female pretty much full time (except when I go to work). Anyhow, I've been enjoying it so much, I would like to find out more BASIC info on SRS. So many questions! I've read that guys like me are not good candidates for it because I dress up because its a "turn-on" for me and once you start Hormone therapy you lose male libido and wish you hadn't started in the first place. So my question for now is (and forgive me, it may sound stupid) if I just wanna keep my male libido and be a man in a womans body, why don't they let guys get the surgery without taking hormones first? What would happen to my sex-drive if I could get my vagina without taking hormones? I just know I would much rather have a vagina.

[Tracy - new dresser]

well i know very little about transitioning etc etc but from what your describing im sorry to say, seems like it would be impossible.

i really do have no idea though lol, just research and research and youll prob have to start by seeing a psychologist who specialises in gender :)

anyway good luck and welcome to the forums :)


Tracy
xox

[Stephanie-L]

To at least start to answer some of your questions Lynn, let me first recommend you see a therapist, as Tracy said, try to find a gender specialist. There are several in the area. You need to sort out who you are and what you want before you do anything permanent to your body. Are you a transsexual? I don't know. Some did start out like you, dressing more for the fun of it, possibly for a sexual thrill, until they figured out what was really going on in their brain. Others have known from a very young age that the body and mind did not match. And for many, probably a mix of both. As to your questions about hormones, yes, they may reduce your libido, but a good endocrinologist can help with that, the balance between estrogen and testosterone is delicate. As far as surgery goes, the rules regarding that are there for good reasons, both medical and psychological. Hormones cause both physical and mental changes, in fact the mental changes for me have been far more profound.

There are lots of good websites with info to give you the basics, unfortunately when you search you also get a lot of porn to sort through. One good site with a huge amount of info that is fairly well arranged is
http://www.tsroadmap.com/index.html

If you would like to contact me directly I can give you a bit of advice about some of the services and therapists available in the area (I live in Fort Worth). I wish you much luck on this journey..............Stephanie

[arbon]

Okay, wow, you want to be a man in a womans body? Just a hunch your probably going have a hard time finding a surgeon if you are not a woman.

[Sandra1746]

Not trying to be sarcastic but testes and a vagina seem likely to interfere with each other; it's really one or the other (we will ignore the ethics of the surgeon here). A "true" hermaphrodite is a VERY rare physical condition.

OTOH, from my experience I can attest that Estradiol does reduce male libido, of course at age 66 it was already pretty low. An orchiectomy or anti-androgens will reduce libido regardless of age. Performance aids like Viagra or injectables are a different issue.

HOWEVER, you MUST see a reputable medical professional to have a consultation / evaluation and decide, in your own mind, whether you want to transition or not (and how far you will go).

Above all be safe,
Sandra1746

[Michelle.M]

OK, Lynn, I don't want to be a total buzzkill but there is so much to be inferred from your post that I really don't know where to begin.

But I'll begin here. It's your first post and you come with guns blazing and asking questions that you might have had answered if you had made your first post in the Introductions and Re-Introductions forum and just taken the time to get acquainted and read as many of the similar posts regarding this topic as you can find. Don't be surprised if people quickly label you as a troll. Just sayin'.


I would like to find out more BASIC info on SRS. So many questions!

Have you read anything on the internet anywhere about transgender issues, the typical indicators that a person with gender dysphoria (those are the folks who are potential candidates for GRS) and the requirements for GRS as recommended by WPATH?

And if you're getting ready to ask "What's WPATH?" then I know the answer to my question is "No".

There's so much readily available information and it's only a mouse-click away.


I've read that guys like me are not good candidates for it because I dress up because its a "turn-on" for me

Do you think that you might find a different answer here? The likelihood is practically nil.


and once you start Hormone therapy you lose male libido and wish you hadn't started in the first place.

Some transwomen regret that, but speaking for myself (and I'm sure others will chime in soon) losing my male libido - and replacing it with something more like a female sex drive - was not only NOT regrettable but eagerly sought after.


I've crossdressed my entire adult life but just recently started going out as a female pretty much full time (except when I go to work).

Um, yeah. That's not "pretty much full time". That's called part-time. Not a bad place to start, but it is what it is.


. . . [if] I just wanna keep my male libido and be a man in a womans body

OK, now I'm confused. Just what the heck do you really want? Do you even know what you want? Do you want to transition or do you just want to play extreme dress-up?


So my question for now is . . . why don't they let guys get the surgery without taking hormones first?

"Guys" who get PARTIAL surgery (ie: breast augmentation) with little or no hormone use are commonly referred to as ********. You know, the same ones you see in porn movies and making themselves available for "companionship" on Craigslist?

Is that your goal? If so, that's your choice and I do not make it a habit to question others' choices, but this may not be the site for you to find thoughtful answers to those questions.

As for getting GRS without following WPATH protocols, good luck. Sure, there are people who do it, but the few people I know who've taken that path generally spent many more years trying to make it happen than they would have had they gone about it the right way.

[aalynn88]

First off, thank you for your input. You are right. I have not done enough research. Thats one reason why I thought I could get answers here. I'm not really good with words and not sure if I even got my question right BUT, I just made the decision to go see a therapist about it. Thanks!

[kimdl93]

If you want to spring for surgery in Thailand, I doubt that anyone will stop you. However, you won't be physically male afterwards, and won't have male hormones and sex drive. Without female hormones, you would not develop feminine traits associated with them either. N But more importantly, SRS is major, life changing surgery that be contemplated by someone who clearly needs to become female. if you just want too look female, but want to remain male, save yourself some time, physical trauma, lots of money and unforeseen side effects or complications and buy some good breast forms and shapers.

[aalynn88]

I have a brother that lives in Thailand and he tells me guys come there all the time and get breast implants for $500.00. Of course im not sure if this is true, however, I definately want implants. I'm just afraid i may have to find another way to make a living before I get them because right now, I'm a self-employed tile-setter and I may not get as much business if they see a guy with breast wanting to do their tile work. I know its gonna take a lot of time to figure all this out but it will be nice to talk to others on this site about their experiences and how they got to where they wanna be.

[Catherine Hopkins]

I have a brother that lives in Thailand and he tells me guys come there all the time and get breast implants for $500.00.

Anything is possible with a backstreet surgeon but you'd get pretty much what you paid for.

The reputable Thai surgeons (Suporn and Chettawut spring to mind as the only two I'd trust myself, and only Suporn for the actual SRS) wouldn't touch you without psychiatric referrals and would cost thousands more than your brother quotes.

[arbon]

I'm just confused, are you wanting to do all this because the idea is sexually exciting? If you like all the turn on the just keep dressing and fantasizing there is not reason to consider anything else.

[Michelle.M]

I have a brother that lives in Thailand and he tells me guys come there all the time and get breast implants for $500.00..

Crikey, can you even comprehend the ramifications of that? Yes, surgery prices in Thailand are much lower than those in the US, but $500 for BA is roughly one-tenth of what it is here. Does that even make sense? That's back alley cheap even by Thai standards! Would you really lie down on the operating table of some hack who's that cheap?


Of course im not sure if this is true, however, I definately want implants.

You know, this really is starting to sound worse than it did in your original post. You really have no idea what you're saying, do you?

Do you, or do you not wish to transition? Sounds to me like you're all about vagina worship, boob envy and extreme crossdressing.


I know its gonna take a lot of time to figure all this out but it will be nice to talk to others on this site about their experiences and how they got to where they wanna be.

As far as I can see there is practically nobody here in the Transsexual forum who wants to be where you think you want to be. If you derive any information from anyone here about our experiences it will have no bearing whatsoever on the path you seem to want to take.

I'm sorry, but I doubt anyone here can help you unless we're giving you a lift to your first therapist appointment, which you desperately need. Now.

[aalynn88]

Again, I apologize. As it said in my original post, my question may sound stupid. Im brand new to this site. By the way, i took your advice and started again from the beginning with introductions. I also just came out of the closet a couple of months ago and Im just excited about all this. So please forgive me. There is no need to be mean to me.

[Miranda-E]

It seems that you are more interested in hiding the fact that you're a man and assuming a safe/accepted role than becoming a woman. I think you really need to examine what direction that libido leans and come to terms with that before rushing to SRS.

[Catherine Hopkins]

Again, I apologize. As it said in my original post, my question may sound stupid. Im brand new to this site. By the way, i took your advice and started again from the beginning with introductions. I also just came out of the closet a couple of months ago and Im just excited about all this. So please forgive me. There is no need to be mean to me.


Aalynn. It sounds to me like you're in what we call the pink fog. The euphoria that comes with realising you can be more feminine.

You need to slow down, think about your own goals and then start some serious research.

Taking hormones, and especially testosterone blockers will kill the male libido - but so will SRS or an orchiectomy as the primary source of libido is testosterone and any and all of those methods will kill off the main suppliers of testosterone so planning on SRS without hormones will just mean it happens suddenly and irrevocably. Probably better and safer to try testosterone blockers FIRST so see if you actually MISS the libido. Many say they will and cannot imagine not having erections but come the time they're gone, many don't miss them.

Men think with their erections. Losing them allows a new clarity of thought as to where you want to go, long term.

[docrobbysherry]

Hi Aalynn. Welcome to the site. I cannot speak for u or anyone else. However, my experience sounds like it may have been similar to yours.

I began suddenly dressing out of the blue at age 50. What I wanted more than anything was my own breasts. And, I fantasized about becoming a female. Unfortunately, I wanted to also be a young and pretty one. To make a long story short, I bought a silicone female suit and now I can see myself as the young, pretty woman I imagined in my mirror any time I like! Years later, I still find that image extremely exciting! Rite after I got the suit my desire for real breasts and to possibly try hormones and have GRS disappeared! I now clearly understand I'm not a TS. Simply a CD that enjoys extreme realism in my mirror and photos.

I think anyone who feels they may be confusing the desire to look female with becoming one could easily clear that up be trying what I did. For less than $1000 to can see yourself as an anatomically correct female. And, switch back and forth at will!

Obviously, my solution is probably like a joke to TSs. However, if there's just one other person like myself out there, maybe they can relate to my experience?

[Michelle.M]

Obviously, my solution is probably like a joke to TSs.

No, I wouldn't say that at all! The solution you've chosen is perfect - for you - and nobody should criticize. As you say, you're not TS, so why would this be a joke?

But for someone to consider surgery or other radical procedures when they really don't seem to want to transition is, at the least, absurd.

[max]

"Guys" who get PARTIAL surgery (ie: breast augmentation) with little or no hormone use are commonly referred to as ********. You know, the same ones you see in porn movies and making themselves available for "companionship" on Craigslist?

Do you find this manifestation of their gender identity illegitimate? It seems so considering you immediately paint the whole group with the "sex worker" brush.

[Angela Campbell]

It may be time to talk to a professional therapist and get the information you want. It is difficult to separate what you may want from what you need, and learning the realities can be a good place to start. Some of the things you are talking about are permanent and care should be taken to know as much as possible before doing anything that could be a problem later on. Slow it down, Do what you can that is not un doable, and start some real research with a professional.

[Badtranny]

I love this thread and I hope a decent dialogue gets started because I think a LOT of CD's would be interested in this exact course of action. Of course there is a fundamental problem with being a "man" with a vagina and that is the testicles, or rather lack of the testicles. Once the berries get plucked you will need to undergo some form of HRT in order to remain healthy. I suppose 'T' instead of 'E' is possible, but let's all sit for a moment and ponder that possibility.

Lovely.

[LeaP]

Once the berries get plucked you will need to undergo some form of HRT in order to remain healthy. I suppose 'T' instead of 'E' is possible, but let's all sit for a moment and ponder that possibility.

Hmmm - I think that would make one a "bad tranny." :D

[TeresaL]

..and once you start Hormone therapy you lose male libido and wish you hadn't started in the first place.

Losing your libido is not all you'll lose. HRT will cease and desist the desire to cross dress. I don't know for how long, but I'm starting the third month without dressing as a female to go out. Of course, I won't get dressed just to stay at home. I can dawdle, and do my chores around the house in drab.

But tomorrow, as an experiment, I will FORCE myself to dress, go into town, run errands, and have lunch dressed in my preferred gender style of clothing. It just seems like a lot of trouble, putting on makeup and don my women's jeans, sweater, and coat - when I could just slide into drab and go. But I'm planning for it ahead of time just because it is more of a chore than thrill. My SO has to go to work during the day, but I'm letting her know that tomorrow is my girls day out.

My hopes are that I will regain the pleasure, joy, and warmth I once enjoyed when wearing women's clothes, smelling like a woman, conversing with men and women I meet on my way, and all the other things I have enjoyed. And like you, I've done it quite frequently. But right now? It's just a dream. I have to wait and see what my day will be like.

[Beth-Lock]

Well, that stirred up the nay-sayers!

[Tammy V]

You have made the right decision to go to a therapist, howver that comes out. And what exactly is meant by a "male libido"?

[Ceri Anne]

I have a brother that lives in Thailand and he tells me guys come there all the time and get breast implants for $500.00. Of course im not sure if this is true, however, I definately want implants. I'm just afraid i may have to find another way to make a living before I get them because right now, I'm a self-employed tile-setter and I may not get as much business if they see a guy with breast wanting to do their tile work. I know its gonna take a lot of time to figure all this out but it will be nice to talk to others on this site about their experiences and how they got to where they wanna be.

If you pay for the trip to Thailand, you might as well have it done here, proabably still cheeper. Although since your brother is there could be another reason to visit.

[aalynn88]

Dear Kathryn Martin. Maybe, just maybe, I suffer from the same medical condition. Maybe, just maybe, I'm so uninformed about all this that although I now see I worded my question wrong, I came here looking for some answers and maybe, just maybe, I'm afraid of the negative side-effects of hormone therapy and wonder what good it does. Look, I sincerely don't mean to make ANYONE sick or degrade ANYONE. I'm just a kind and loving person who is tolerant and loving to even a person like yourself. I can't make anyone sick unless they are sick to begin with. Believe it or not but I love you and wish only the best for you but it is wrong to attack someone as you just did myself. You hurt my feelings.

Anyway, from what I understand after reading these post, aside from Im an idiot and make people sick, is that I need the hormones because you lose male libido anyway with surgery so you need some female libidiousness to replace it. Correct? I don't know but I will learn about this stuff reguardless of folks like yourself trying to bring me down.

I LOVE this reply!! How do you make the blue boxes around what someone has typed and comment on it?? When I hit post quick reply, like I just did, does it post my comment right under yours? Because on my page, it goes to the top.

[max]

I LOVE this reply!! How do you make the blue boxes around what someone has typed and comment on it?? When I hit post quick reply, like I just did, does it post my comment right under yours? Because on my page, it goes to the top.

Hit the reply with quote button on the post you want to quote and it will put the quote in the box.

[aalynn88]

Hit the reply with quote button on the post you want to quote and it will put the quote in the box.

Bi-George I think I've got it. Thanks!!


If you pay for the trip to Thailand, you might as well have it done here, proabably still cheeper. Although since your brother is there could be another reason to visit.

Yes, the trip will be at least a few thousand but I would LOVE to see him again, plus, I would be able to stay in the ladyboy capitol of the world for a while. Also, he speaks the language and can show me around!

[ReineD]

Aalynn, welcome to the forum. First I'm giving you a head's up about another small forum technical issue. Multiple postings (several consecutive posts) are discouraged (they clog up the threads) and when a mod sees them they will merge them all together. If you want to post something and no one has posted after your last post, just click on the "Edit Post" button on your last post and add what you need to add.

I really do think you started on the wrong foot with the way that you worded things, but I think I understand.

What you meant by "preserving your male libido" or wanting to be a "man in a woman's body" was that you want to live as a woman but you don't want to lose your sex drive, and you were wondering if taking hormones would cause your sex drive to go away? If this is what you meant, your concerns are valid. You just need an education about where your sex drive comes from as a man, and where it would come from as a woman.

But before worrying about sex drive, do you feel that you ARE a woman internally? I read your intro and you've been dressing since the early teens. You've recently come out to family and friends who are accepting. Your picture does not look like a fetish CD's (you do not put on huge breast forms, dressed like a hooker, etc). I gather that you're always dressed like an average GG (genetic girl), and the only reason that you do not dress at work is because it would be difficult in the construction business to present as a girl with breast forms.

So again, putting the question of sex drive aside for a moment, why do you want to transition? Why do you want to live your life as a woman?

As to the sex drive, I'm no expert, but when transitioning birth males take androgen blockers or have their testicles removed, they eliminate testosterone production which by itself would eliminate the sex drive. So because bodies need hormones to stay healthy, transitioners need to replace the testosterone with estrogen, and this makes possible a female sex drive, especially after SRS. Other members here can explain it much better than me, but many post-op transwomen do not lose the ability to enjoy having sex, if this was your main concern.

[aalynn88]

So again, putting the question of sex drive aside for a moment, why do you want to transition? Why do you want to live your life as a woman?

You really hit the nail on the head! I wish I knew how to reply with quote just on parts of what you said but I'll figere that out later. Anyhoo, When I'm at the mall or anywhere really, I just absolutely LOVE being a woman. It feels so right I can't even begin to explain. I just love it. Do I feel im a woman on the inside? Well, I dunno. Im bi-sexual and confused. I feel like im ME on the inside. Whether thats a man or a woman, I really don't know. What does a woman supposed to feel like on the inside? I've always been a kind , soft spoken, feminin guy. I like to think anyways.

What you meant by "preserving your male libido" or wanting to be a "man in a woman's body" was that you want to live as a woman but you don't want to lose your sex drive.

Wow, Thats exactly what I meant to say!!

[Eryn]

Moderator Note:

Aalynn is a new member who has asked a valid question in a way that has offended a couple of people. Please, let us be adults here and help educate, not attack.

[aalynn88]

Moderator Note:

Aalynn is a new member who has asked a valid question in a way that has offended a couple of people. Please, let us be adults here and help educate, not attack.

Thank You very much!!! Eryn

[LeaP]

... Maybe, just maybe, I suffer from the same medical condition. Maybe, just maybe, I'm so uninformed about all this that although I now see I worded my question wrong, I came here looking for some answers and maybe, just maybe, I'm afraid of the negative side-effects of hormone therapy and wonder what good it does. ...

Anyway, from what I understand after reading these post, aside from Im an idiot and make people sick, is that I need the hormones because you lose male libido anyway with surgery so you need some female libidiousness to replace it. Correct? ...

The wording of your original post is actually quite clear. "I dress up because it's a turn-on for me" is very specific. So is the gender language - "guys like me", "male libido", "man in a woman's body", etc.

You are not a good candidate for SRS because (as an evident fetishist) the chances for post-surgical regret would be assessed as high. You are not a good candidate because, changes to medical ethics notwithstanding, the guideline is still "first, do no harm" - and SRS is viewed as a mutiliation for any but a transsexual (for whom it is a correction). You are not a good candidate because you don't understand the consequences and therefore can't give informed consent.

SRS takes medical procedures considerably past cosmetic surgery. Because of that, the physician's personal and professional ethics have as big a role as do the prospective patient's wishes. That is why they don't let "guys like you" do whatever they want. Medicine (at its best, at least) is based on evidence and outcome-based practices and standards. At this point, a man acquiring a female habitus doesn't quality.

In other words, you are not a good candidate.

[ReineD]

I missed the "turn on" part.

Lynn, this determines what motivates you to dress and if your only reason to be Lynn is for sexual gratification, it would be a huge mistake to transition. What did you mean by "turn on"?

[aalynn88]

I missed the "turn on" part.

Lynn, this determines what motivates you to dress and if your only reason to be Lynn is for sexual gratification, it would be a huge mistake to transition. What did you mean by "turn on"?

Well, obviously im not "turned on" all the time but I am dressed en femm all the time. I don't feel turned on this very moment but I am dolled up right now for instance. I got my wording "turn-on" from a testamonial from someone else on another website that had SRS and was disappointed so I stole that persons wording because it seemed to fit me to a degree but not exactly.


The wording of your original post is actually quite clear. "I dress up because it's a turn-on for me" is very specific. So is the gender language - "guys like me", "male libido", "man in a woman's body", etc.

You are not a good candidate for SRS because (as an evident fetishist) the chances for post-surgical regret would be assessed as high. You are not a good candidate because, changes to medical ethics notwithstanding, the guideline is still "first, do no harm" - and SRS is viewed as a mutiliation for any but a transsexual (for whom it is a correction). You are not a good candidate because you don't understand the consequences and therefore can't give informed consent.

SRS takes medical procedures considerably past cosmetic surgery. Because of that, the physician's personal and professional ethics have as big a role as do the prospective patient's wishes. That is why they don't let "guys like you" do whatever they want. Medicine (at its best, at least) is based on evidence and outcome-based practices and standards. At this point, a man acquiring a female habitus doesn't quality.

In other words, you are not a good candidate.

I got the wording elsewhere so I could state a question properly (which I didn't) Im tired of defending myself. Forgive me for asking anything. You just don't know me. You don't know if Im an "evident fetishist" I wish you would try and get to know me. I may be worth knowing. You never know! Night all!

[ReineD]

I know there are alternative meanings for "turn on", a residual from the hippie lingo.

But if you want meaningful advice here, you'll need to first be honest with YOURSELF, and then try to be as precise as possible when communicating to the members.

If you want to be a woman mostly because the idea arouses you then you're in the wrong place for answers. The TS section is not a fetish or a sexual site. Members here who are or have transitioned have lost families, jobs, friends, not to mention the turmoil involved with living a life not having been comfortable and then being utterly miserable as a man. They transition because of the deep disconnect they feel with their male bodies and unless you experience something like this, you cannot imagine the pain it brings to the psyche. I'm not trans, but I've read their posts and their stories for a long time.

Gender Dysphoria is the only valid reason to transition. If you want a female body because you get off on it (which is not the impression I got), then it is understandable that for those to whom transition is a life or death decision, your motives would seem disrespectful and superficial.

This is why you need to take your time when composing your posts and weigh your words carefully. But most important, the only way you will help yourself is by knowing what you want and not saying things that you've figured out others want to hear. Does this make sense? You're here to learn the truth about transition. This is not a place to use, if you want validation or quick answers because having a woman's body is a sexual thing for you.

... although, experiencing all aspects of being a woman, including sexuality is important too. It's important to know the difference.

[Eryn]

I got the wording elsewhere so I could state a question properly (which I didn't) Im tired of defending myself. Forgive me for asking anything. You just don't know me. You don't know if Im an "evident fetishist" I wish you would try and get to know me. I may be worth knowing. You never know! Night all!

Aalynn, in a post above I asked members to be respectful of you even though you asked a question in an unusual way. Now I'm going to make the same request of you. Nobody wins by lashing out at another.

[LeaP]

I got the wording elsewhere so I could state a question properly (which I didn't) Im tired of defending myself. Forgive me for asking anything. You just don't know me. You don't know if Im an "evident fetishist" I wish you would try and get to know me. I may be worth knowing. You never know! Night all!

Your own, honest thoughts and words are usually best here. Trying to use someone else's words and concepts when they don't exactly fit anyway only confuses things and gets in the way of anyone trying to see YOU. "Evident" just refers to what's been presented. No more, no less. "Turn-on" was YOUR phrase and SURELY you know the implications???

[Beth-Lock]

I would like to say a few words in favour of the self-observations of Lynn, which ring true to my experience and I think, to the experiences of some other transgendered people. One thing is an attempt to express honestly one's own experiences, while on a journey of self-discovery, should not be criticized here, and even worse, very emotionally, for being the trans-culture equivalent of politically incorrect. It seems true to me, that the actual experiences of some, do not seem to fit the patterns of existing theories, especially the most common ones, or at least not, obviously, (for example, because they might need further interpretation before they square with these theories).

1) Generally, since counselling/psychotherapeutic analysis is a difficult job and one which must be approached with great delicacy, finesse and respect for others, one of us trying to practice it on another here, is inappropriate. It would be difficult even for a professional to do so, and most specializing in gender issues would, I think, be hesitant to be so judgmental not to mention, accusatory.

2) I think one of the things that a forum like this is good for is to present other's observations and experiences, and debate, in an intellectual, mainly logical way, what they mean.

Trying to pursue the goal of 2), while doing 1), when it results in using a poster's own words, etc., by way of diagnosing their problems, syndrome, etc., and using it to undermine their arguments, which should only be opposed by logic and intellectual matters, is simply a type of the logical/rhetorical fallacy of attacking the person rather than his/her ideas/thinking, logic of their arguments. The formal name for this logical fallacy is the argumentum ad hominem and it has been known since ancient times to be a mistake. Moreover, this leads to heating up emotions and undermines politeness and respect for each other. In other words, it creates an entry point for flaming. It encourages taking everything personally, including concluding that others, because they argue or mention certain things, have a problem which requires the unasked for advice of others. Since I have run into the same sort of hurtful criticism and attempts to give me unwanted advice with an ideological twist, I identify with Lynn's experience of these things, and have been motivated, beyond my better judgment, to say something about it, here, now.

I can see how it might be viewed as useful to indoctrinate new members and try and achieve unity of goals in the so-called, trans community, or the community of members of this site. However, it has the disadvantage of suppressing debate and participation, and undermining the achieving of a noble goal of the trans community, in advancing the thinking and theoretical basis of the understanding of transsexualism. Enlightenment on the other hand is always a good thing. Unlike peer counselling which has many dangerous hazards, you cannot argue that it requires a professional licence, like those psychiatrists and psychologists need.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I never wonted to be a woman let alone be a male i never dressed as a or like a woman, yet because of the way i was born i have both iv had a good number of surgerys, so i understand some thinking behind the the male / female being one as you'v asked not a ? thats far fetched, as some may think.

Thailand , we have a number of ladyboys who i have met some 25 or so, & yes they do have breast surgery's though thier reasons are not to live as woman as such its for other reasons as many are aware of, of cause no meds are needed for them cost is about 4200 U S $ & a very good surgeon is Dr Sanguan of Phuket.Thailand.

My ? will be to understand you better is have you thought about the Psychological,,Mental..& Emotional impact this will have on you ,

For those who ...need ... to live as women will need a time for hormones to work on thier bodys in prep for surgerys & is far better for growth of the breast tissue skin to be softer & to allow for the body to adopt to the augumention.

Wether you have surgerys , for S R S is an other matter & this brings up the ? of ,

...ARE you a woman who needs to be body mind & your being as a woman .or you like the idear yet not have this change, the meds are for life the surgerys are S R S is a non return once done thats it, the sex drive well depends on the person. ill not get into that ,

To live as a woman is very different to a male in thinking & just being & how you fare in the real world of women is very different, its not an act its real life,

Now i know of a few people who live thier life as ...like ... a woman . fact is they are not its an act to them & thier thinking is nothing like how a woman thinks & i have nothing incommon with them because they are not women i dont relate with them,

Okay thats the difference, so being a woman is far more than clothes or acting out or trying to emulate a woman.

As another point im a member of women only groups, because i am a woman not a trans ether, so this then would be an issue for you how would you interact with women & this is every day full time if you like ,& to get known & be known ,

of cause im looking at this with in our groups & from a womans perspective, any way something to think about, & maybe theres more we can look at as you look at your self & how it would apply to you. or others as may be the case,

...noeleena...

[Jorja]

I guess it would be to much effort for some to give what you ask for, aalynn. Here are a couple of good sites with a lot of information. http://www.tsroadmap.com/index.html and http://transgendercare.com/ . That should keep you busy for a couple of days. Ignore those who will blast you for everything you might say and please, continue to ask questions. The only dumb question is the one not asked.

[aalynn88]

I guess it would be to much effort for some to give what you ask for, aalynn. Here are a couple of good sites with a lot of information. http://www.tsroadmap.com/index.html and http://transgendercare.com/ . That should keep you busy for a couple of days. Ignore those who will blast you for everything you might say and please, continue to ask questions. The only dumb question is the one not asked.

Thank you Jorga! I truly do appreciate all those who tried to be informative and help me. It was certainly not my intention to stir up any trouble. I guess some folks, as smart as they are, fail to realize is that by helping someone, you help yourself and being downright mean and rude to someone, well, I just feel sorry for those folks. I wouldn't feel good at all if I was like that. I will check out these other sites. This is my first and last thread on this forum, at least for a good while. Thanks all

[LeaP]

Sorry Beth, I can't agree. The written word is all we have here. We have to take (and infer) meaning from the little we have. There is a point of generosity and patience you make which has some validity, but I don't see things in political correctness terms at all. There are examples of various appoaches throughout the thread already, short as it is, including some condemnation, but also requests for clarification, and education. You can view this (particularly the last) as a sort of community PC exercise, I suppose, but in truth the comments represent medicine as it is currently practiced in regard to SRS.

The question was asked ... ("Why can't ...). and answered in the context given. My comments on topics like standards of care, medical ethics, and views of the surgery for non-TS, informed consent, etc. are plain descriptions of the way the SRS world operates. My statement on regret was my own based on what I've read to-date.

Aalynn has tried to clarify and soften the gender language that the majority of the responses are addressing, but reponses so far have been directly to the heart of the question, particularly Michelle's. The answer from a SRS surgeon would likely be even less receptive, if there was a response at all. Short of the backstreet surgeons Cat mentions, there are no realistic alternatives.

Finallly, I don't see anyone attempting therapy here and information is not therapy.

I believe any additional clarification by Aalynn would be met as it is received. I can readily come up with other instances of members describing themselves in ways that presented challenges to understanding, but which worked out over time. Maybe a more generous view of the regular membership would include the perspective that since we are not professionals, it might be a little harder getting to that understanding, rather than raising the "PC" flag.

[EDIT]

Aalynn, please do continue, if you can. There are a lot of people here who can provide insight of considerable value, based on HARD experience. It's difficult to find elsewhere. It's completely true that fetish motives get a very poor reception here, and that your comments have been taken along those lines by many (including me) - but if things are other than what they appear (or perhaps initially appeared), you'll find this a generous and giving place, appearances to the contrary. Don't give up too soon ... this is a rough road and things here might be considered gentle in comparison to what you will go through in your life if you elect to continue toward SRS.

[Kathryn Martin]

Dear Kathryn Martin. Maybe, just maybe, I suffer from the same medical condition. I doubt that very much given that it was your first post here and your "question" was incredibly specific and very telling. I have been accused of not "liking" your question and that was the reason my comment was deleted. To be truthful, I thought your question reveals much (notwithstanding any backtracking afterwards) and what's not to like about it.


Maybe, just maybe, I'm so uninformed about all this that although I now see I worded my question wrong, I came here looking for some answers

To claim you asked the question: " I just wanna keep my male libido and be a man in a womans [sic] body, why don't they let guys get the surgery without taking hormones first? wrong because you are uninformed fails to address how you could have asked this question any different. You want to keep your male libido while making yourself sexually available with a female body. You ask why guys can't get a female body without losing aggressive male sexual behavior.


and maybe, just maybe, I'm afraid of the negative side-effects of hormone therapy and wonder what good it does.

Oh I gathered that because it would lose you your male libido (your words not mine)


Look, I sincerely don't mean to make ANYONE sick or degrade ANYONE.

I am absolutely sure that this was not your intention. But sometimes being thoughtless has the same effect


I'm just a kind and loving person who is tolerant and loving to even a person like yourself. I can't make anyone sick unless they are sick to begin with. Believe it or not but I love you and wish only the best for you but it is wrong to attack someone as you just did myself. You hurt my feelings.

You see, I can not claim not have intended what I did. I intended to express my views as clearly as possible. I do not buy your story that this is all a question of being ignorant, being "new" to this, not having done your research. If you crossdressed all of your life as you claim then being uninformed is not really something that can be claimed. As a result of all of this amazing "acceptance" from the various posters here you will now change your narrative to adapt to the transgender paradigm and before we all know it you will make wild claims about your medical status. You will be healed from ignorance and all will be forgotten because you then comply with generally accepted transgender principles. Good luck with that

Oh, and you and I will never be the same .....

[Catherine Hopkins]

Y'know what.

After two moderator interventions, Lynn keeps being savaged.

Maybe it's time this thread was simply closed and Lynn was allowed to start again. Geeze. The intolerance here stinks. Can't anybody be allowed to recover from starting off on the wrong foot?

[aalynn88]

I had no idea that posting an innocent question would raise such a ruckus but like Jorja said, "the only dumb question is the one not asked." Its seems I need to find information before I can find information. Anyway, to put this as honestly and sincerely as I can, In my own crude language, I just want to be a girl. I guess I wasn't looking at SRS as a correction for an incompatability. Instead I was looking at it as a way of making my dream come true. I do not want this penis between my legs, period! There have many times where I wish I could just take out the butcher knife and cut it off but I'm not insane. I actually think I would be happier with no sex organ at all rather than have this thing between my legs. When I first read about SRS, one particular site said 80% never again achieve orgasm (which now I believe is not correct. More like 20% I don't know but this is why I posted the original question) My point is, Im 47 years old, I've had plenty of orgasms, I think I would be willing to give that up just so I could have a vagina. Of course I don't want to give that up and may not have to, but I would. Why would I go to such lengths like dressing up like a woman every day if I didn't want to be one? From my point of view, I don't see why anyone would want to be a hairy, smelly, ugly man if they could be a soft, pretty, smooth female. I don't get the FtM deal but I certainly don't want to upset anyone who is. Anyhow, I will probably have to have this darned ole penis the rest of my life but If I can at least get the breast than I'm gonna!!

I was called a fetishist. I need to look that word up but I didn't like the sound of it. Is crossdressing just a fetish? I've been doing it since I can remember. I can't quit doing it. Believe me, I've tried. I've hid it all my life until a few months ago when I came CHARGING out of the closet. Best decision I ever made! Like I said, I love being one of the girls!!!

[Kathryn Martin]

Hi Catherine,

I am not at all sure that what I wrote is intolerant. I have asked myself this question, how it can be intolerant to question someones motives given the initial post. What was the mistake that could be fixed? that Lynn did not want to keep his male sex drive but with a vagina to play with? and actually stated so?

Actually because it is such a hapless statement it says everything does it not? Do you suggest as I did above that changing the narrative might actually fix what Lynn said after the fact?


Is crossdressing just a fetish? I've been doing it since I can remember. I can't quit doing it. Believe me, I've tried. I've hid it all my life until a few months ago when I came CHARGING out of the closet. Best decision I ever made! Like I said, I love being one of the girls!!!
And - we are away to the races!

[aalynn88]

I doubt that very much given that it was your first post here and your "question" was incredibly specific and very telling. I have been accused of not "liking" your question and that was the reason my comment was deleted. To be truthful, I thought your question reveals much (notwithstanding any backtracking afterwards) and what's not to like about it.



To claim you asked the question: " I just wanna keep my male libido and be a man in a womans [sic] body, why don't they let guys get the surgery without taking hormones first? wrong because you are uninformed fails to address how you could have asked this question any different. You want to keep your male libido while making yourself sexually available with a female body. You ask why guys can't get a female body without losing aggressive male sexual behavior.



Oh I gathered that because it would lose you your male libido (your words not mine)



I am absolutely sure that this was not your intention. But sometimes being thoughtless has the same effect



You see, I can not claim not have intended what I did. I intended to express my views as clearly as possible. I do not buy your story that this is all a question of being ignorant, being "new" to this, not having done your research. If you crossdressed all of your life as you claim then being uninformed is not really something that can be claimed. As a result of all of this amazing "acceptance" from the various posters here you will now change your narrative to adapt to the transgender paradigm and before we all know it you will make wild claims about your medical status. You will be healed from ignorance and all will be forgotten because you then comply with generally accepted transgender principles. Good luck with that

Oh, and you and I will never be the same .....

I was in the closet about all this before a few months ago and therefore had no plans to go forward with anything. Why then would I have done any research? Now, Im so happy about being out of the closet and everyone accepting me as I am that I am just now really excited about the possibilities and looking for answers. Is that so hard to believe? Sorry to get off on the wrong foot with you Katheryn. I wish I could fix it.

[Kathryn Martin]

Lynn, did you come out of your lifelong closet a few months ago and now live full time as a woman?

[aalynn88]

Hi Catherine,

I am not at all sure that what I wrote is intolerant. I have asked myself this question, how it can be intolerant to question someones motives given the initial post. What was the mistake that could be fixed? that Lynn did not want to keep his male sex drive but with a vagina to play with? and actually stated so?

Actually because it is such a hapless statement it says everything does it not? Do you suggest as I did above that changing the narrative might actually fix what Lynn said after the fact?


And - we are away to the races!

I really dont even understand what you mean. I will tell you this, I have sex with men. Ok. I don't wanna have to do it the way gay guys do it. Ok (dont wanna sound crude) any how please just let me be Kathriyn Geez. live and let live

[aalynn88]

Lynn, did you come out of your lifelong closet a few months ago and now live full time as a woman?

I most certainly do!!! Although I have stated on here that I cannot do the work I do wearing a wig (im bald) im not gonna go out as a bald chic with make-up and boobs. Plus I dont think it would be good for business. On the weekends and every afternoon from about 3pm on, Im dressed as Lynn (my actual middle name) I do my shopping, go to my AA meetings, go to band practice (Im in an 80's band) I do everything as Lynn except work. Its hard dirty work not to be done as a female and I hope to find something more appropriate soon. I just don't have any other skills. The guys in AA taught me this trade after NO one would hire me. Its all I know how to do that will pay my bills Don't want to ruin my outfits either lol.

and yes, life long closet. Before a few months ago, I just wore the undies. Stole panties out of apt. dryers when I was a teen, mothers panty drawer and so on. You see, I have never had the luxury of living alone until about a year ago. Well, I finally got tired of getting all dolled up and being trapped in my apt. so I went up to my nieghbors and said "SURPRISE" and got great results. They said I looked great and that it didn't matter what others think anyway and they talked me into going to the store for the first time fully dressed. Then I started going to the gay AA group first. Then, i had the courage to go to my home AA group of all straight people that have known me for years! Now I go everywhere possible!!

And why not? Im gorgeous!! dont u think?

[Tamara Croft]

[Administrator Posting]

After a mod posting twice in this thread, you still don't get it, so this is the Admin posting, knock it off or I'm going to get seriously annoyed, is that clear enough? The next person that posts in this thread against my warning is going to get a month off... got that?

[arbon]

and yes, life long closet. Before a few months ago, I just wore the undies. Stole panties out of apt. dryers when I was a teen, mothers panty drawer and so on. You see, I have never had the luxury of living alone until about a year ago. Well, I finally got tired of getting all dolled up and being trapped in my apt. so I went up to my nieghbors and said "SURPRISE" and got great results. They said I looked great and that it didn't matter what others think anyway and they talked me into going to the store for the first time fully dressed. Then I started going to the gay AA group first. Then, i had the courage to go to my home AA group of all straight people that have known me for years! Now I go everywhere possible!!

And why not? Im gorgeous!! dont u think?

lol I like you Lynn :)

Well at least this has got us out of the same old same old

to thine own self be true

[Rianna Humble]

I've read that guys like me are not good candidates for it because I dress up because its a "turn-on" for me

The phrase you use normally relates to getting a sexual thrill out of what you are doing. If that is your reason for dressing then Gender Confirmation Surgery would be likely to have a bad outcome. GCS is major surgery and (except in the case of a few rich people who pay to get around the safeguards) is not undertaken lightly. Those who decide to rush ahead ignoring the safeguards are normally the ones who express most regret after surgery


once you start Hormone therapy you lose male libido and wish you hadn't started in the first place.

The point of Hormone therapy is to begin aligning the body of a transsexual person to their gender. In the case of an MtF person, loss of male libido is a desirable outcome - why would we want anything to do with our old male persona?

I can see that someone who dresses because it gives them a sexual thrill would see the loss of that sexual thrill as undesirable.


I just wanna keep my male libido and be a man in a womans body, why don't they let guys get the surgery without taking hormones first?

Because GCS is major surgery designed to give a different outcome to that which you describe. It is not cosmetic surgery designed to give someone a "designer vagina", it is one part of a very necessary medical process to treat the gender dysphoria.


What would happen to my sex-drive if I could get my vagina without taking hormones? I just know I would much rather have a vagina.

A man's sex drive is different to a woman's sex drive, it is also primarily controlled by the testosterone that you would lose by the removal of your testicles.

[MonctonGirl]

I think the OP had a very sincere, realistic and COMMON fantasy-driven question
so let's go easy on the OP. while we are giving reality based answers.

Welcome to the forum, OP.


...Im dressed as Lynn (my actual middle name)...

lol ... how fortunate for you. I would have hated that name as a boy, but now it would be very beneficial!

[Michelle.M]

Do you find this manifestation of their gender identity illegitimate?

It IS a legitimate expression, but of what would depend on the person.

Consider this - within the TG spectrum we have crossdressers, drag queens and kings and transsexuals (IS and genderqueer have an overlap in this classification, but I'm keeping this TG-specific for brevity and to honor the distinctions of being IS or queer). And yes, as a gender-variant person this also includes ********.

Crossdressers do so for a variety of reasons, as we discuss frequently on this site. Drag queens are all about performance, and if there are any queens or kings using this site it's not apparent to me. Either way, they're not TS.

Now, among transsexuals we have pre-op, post-op and non-op, and every TS takes the measures that are appropriate to effect her or his transition. HRT - maybe. FFS - possibly. GRS? Depends on the extent of gender transition one desires or can afford. But one thing they all have in common, and that is to leave the gender they were raised as in the past and embark on a new life in a way they themselves define it. That's transition.

Shall we consider a ******* to be simply a non-op transsexual? I think not, and the difference is what is the desired end state. When someone tells me they want to keep male sexual function (and often, male privilege as well) by retaining body parts and avoiding HRT or anything else that aids an actual transition then this is not a person who desires anything permanent or lasting in terms of a transition.

I thus draw one of two conclusions - this person is a ******* or simply very confused regarding where they want to go. But being ******* as an expression of gender identity is simply not the same as being TS. So, I don't question anyone's legitimacy, but I do question where they see themselves fitting into the rainbow.


It seems so considering you immediately paint the whole group with the "sex worker" brush.

Maybe I'm slow but I don't see how questioning someone's expression of gender identity (which I have not done) leads to my assuming that the person is automatically a sex worker. But as I have stated here I do not equate non-op TS with *******. They're simply not the same thing. And I certainly can't claim to be any sort of expert on this topic, but I will say this - every single ******* I have met either works in porn or is a sex worker. Your experience may be different.

[ReineD]

Michelle, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said and admire the objectivity with which you said it.

But I think you missed a category? There are individuals within the spectrum who would like a blended body but who do not have sexual motives. There are people whose sense of gender is fluid, while they live in a world that only accepts either the male or the female sex. They are forced to define themselves as either male or female, while their inherent gender ID is bigender (or maybe even genderless ?). I refer to the two-spirit concept, the birth males who feel that the angularity and hairiness of the male body is ugly, who prefer soft curves, but who have no wish (or no need?) for invasive surgery. These people have a sense of personal aesthetics that is different than people like you and me, who fall decidedly on one side of the gender binary.

I'm not convinced that every person who comes into this section of the forum asking about how to feminize their body a little bit (softer curves through slight breast growth and rounder hips) get a sexual thrill out of having a softer body. But since we all live in a binary-sex world, this is difficult to comprehend.

Another consideration is that maybe, to the people I've just described, the "feminine male" concept is a stepping stone in terms of peeling back the onion layers towards eventually realizing a fully female identity, just as many homosexuals first identify as bisexual in their youths before eventually realizing they have a same-sex attraction. While others, are always bisexual ... or bigender.

A note on the two-spirit concept: I read an interesting explanation recently. In Western culture, we see gender as a straight line with male on one side and female on the other, with perhaps a sliding scale in between the two. Admittedly, most people fit inside this paradigm. But, the cultures in which two-spirits are accepted see gender as a circle, with no beginning nor end to either gender.

[Michelle.M]

But I think you missed a category? . . . people whose sense of gender is fluid

Thanks for pointing this out, but I didn't actually miss it. I intentionlly left out genderfluid / genderqueer / androgynous because the OP was specifically asking about body modification in the transsexual forum, and I wanted to stay on track and answer max' comment.


There are individuals within the spectrum who would like a blended body but who do not have sexual motives.

I take that as a given unless I have evidence to the contrary. We, as transsexual folks, constantly assert that gender and sex are two different things. My earlier posts were directed at the OP as questions to clarify what she wants. The OP addressed her own sexual issues and stated that dressing was a turn-on and that she wanted girl parts without transition.


I'm not convinced that every person who comes into this section of the forum asking about how to feminize their body a little bit (softer curves through slight breast growth and rounder hips) get a sexual thrill out of having a softer body.

I agree, but that does not seem to be the case here.

[ReineD]

Thanks for pointing this out, but I didn't actually miss it. I intentionlly left out genderfluid / genderqueer / androgynous because the OP was specifically asking about body modification in the transsexual forum, and I wanted to stay on track and answer max' comment.

Point taken. However, when I was a mod, I received several PMs from people asking if we could form a new subsection for people who do not identify as crossdressers (the traditional way of defining it, i.e, a "male" who wears female clothing which many CDers adhere to), or a transsexual (a female born in a male body). Setting up a new section for such people would be extremely difficult to moderate, since everyone uses different terms to describe themselves, it's impossible to reach inside a person and determine their degree of gender dysphoria especially while they're trying to figure it out, and also not everyone has a talent for precise written expression. There would be battles about who should post in what section and who shouldn't plus many misunderstandings, but most importantly, the philosophy in this forum is that people can post wherever they need to, according to their self-identification, no matter how it is expressed.

It's just difficult for the people who are confused, working it out, or who identify as neither male nor female, especially the people who feel forced to pick one. Some of these individuals feel more aligned with transsexuals than crossdressers. :sad:

To the OP: this part of the discussion is not meant to reflect my opinion of where you fit in the spectrum, but as a more general discussion that you may (or may not) find helpful.

[Kathryn Martin]

I believe that a part of the forum dedicated to gender queer/fluid is truly missing.

In this day and age everyone calls themselves transsexual because it provides an otherwise currently unavailable legitimacy. If more effort and creativity was expended on describing the phenomena of gender variance and gender queer/fluid, people would recognize that transsexualism is an extremely rare condition because it involves a gender/sex conflict which occurs rarely. Because of the legitimacy issue too many believe that in order to create a believable and credible narrative they must desire hormones and even SRS and then often excuse themselves from it for all sorts of reasons, such as medical and financial etc. to avoid the consequences of something they really do not want or need. We have been over this. The result is regretters, people that should never have had surgery and remain men in surgically altered bodies thinking of de-transitioning or ending up lonely social pariahs.

If instead people were to embrace who they really are, constructed narratives would vanish immediately. I can predict the evolution of practically every newbie in terms of narrative evolution and voila in the end everyone claims to be transsexual when in fact they are not. It is almost laughable. There are unequivocal tell tales. Rarely are they encountered here.

[aalynn88]

Thank all of yall for the informative comments. I understand more now than I did before this thread. I understand why I wouldn't qualify for SRS. I'm not a woman in a mans body. I just wish I was a woman and men who wish they were women don't get to have the surgery. I can't afford it anyway. I probably will be able to get breast implants and I believe thats reversable if I don't like em, although, I can't imagine not liking them. Its just been kinda confusing for me because, well, im a bi-sexual CD. I have an appointment set up with a counselor on Feb. 18th so I can find out more.

[ReineD]

In this day and age everyone calls themselves transsexual because it provides an otherwise currently unavailable legitimacy. If more effort and creativity was expended on describing the phenomena of gender variance and gender queer/fluid, people would recognize that transsexualism is an extremely rare condition because it involves a gender/sex conflict which occurs rarely. Because of the legitimacy issue too many believe that in order to create a believable and credible narrative they must desire hormones and even SRS and then often excuse themselves from it for all sorts of reasons, such as medical and financial etc. to avoid the consequences of something they really do not want or need. We have been over this. The result is regretters, people that should never have had surgery and remain men in surgically altered bodies thinking of de-transitioning or ending up lonely social pariahs.

I could not agree with you more!!

I don't know how we would go about this in our society, getting people to understand that gender is not binary. How do we convince (what we now mostly call) CDers that they are not, in fact female, when they feel happiest expressing femininity? I've discovered that the concept of non-binary is difficult for most people to understand ... certainly it is for most cis-genders, but I suspect for some transsexuals as well who haven't really thought about it, since it is not something that is visible in the people around us.

I haven't spent a great deal of time reading about the changing definitions in the DSM, as regards gender variants who are not transsexual so I confess I don't know how helpful or not helpful is the current definitions for the gender non-conforming (non transsexuals). I haven't even combed through the WPATH SOC to see how they define the non TSs (gender non-conforming) and what they recommend in terms of treatment. Admittedly, there isn't a great deal of physical treatment required if a birth-male does not need to alter his body through HRT or GRS. What is required, is to change society's attitudes to the point where people are more tolerant of gender variance. I don't know how possible this is.

As a cisperson, I personally find it much easier to understand transmen and transwomen than someone who experiences a lesser degree of gender dysphoria, even though I am fully supportive and I take their word for it that they are not fully happy in their birth genders as society defines it.

[Kathryn Martin]

Being gender variant is wonderful. There is nothing wrong with expressing the richness of your personality in all kinds of ways including dress.

Being either in the gender binary (which is where cis people and transsexuals are) or gender fluid is an entirely different thing. Real gender queerness is not only about expression and neither is being of a fixed gender but both have an inner configuration component that is like the basic flavor of each individual human being. Consider the something like tomboy and a crossdressers. Both expand on their personal expression sometimes beyond acceptable societal limits (which are completely arbitrary) but the basic human flavor remains true to their birth gender.

Gender fluidity is truly incorporating both genders in a Milton Diamond kind of way. There is a biological basis to this I believe.

So much fodder for some real conversation.

[Jorja]

While all the others are busy trying to decide where to put you aalynn, I found the exact spot where you belong in the TG spectrum, if that helps you any. Right here: ....O..... :). The easiest way is to pick a spot to start. Then learn as much as you can about this ..... affliction (curse, personal hell) or whatever you like to call it. As you understand more, place yourself wherever you like until it fits. You may never find an exact fit but you can get close.

[Badtranny]

So much fodder for some real conversation.

Yes exactly, which is why I was glad to see the OP pose the questions, unfortunately just not very well.

I am convinced that early acceptance or a more open gender model would likely have resulted in my NOT transitioning. I did indeed wish I was born a girl but I WAS able to accept my reality and I was able to live a relatively normal life albeit a vaguely unhappy one. For me, my gender issues were tightly intertwined with my sexuality and I think my inability to accept myself as a gay man is at the core of why I needed to transition. I wanted to be gay rather than a TS and I tried in earnest to make the gender queer thing work but ultimately I preferred to be seen as something other than a man. Being a TS was not a desirable outcome, but in my current state of mind, I feel like it was the single best decision I ever made. Having said that, I just can't help but wonder how much my current state of mind has been influenced by socialization and the rigid gender roles that I grew to accept as normal.

I tend to think that as society evolves, we will see far more gender variants and far fewer Transsexuals. Well, eventually. First we'll see a LOT more Transsexuals, then society will begin to evolve to a more constructive understanding of gender expression.

[LeaP]

I've discovered that the concept of non-binary is difficult for most people to understand ... certainly it is for most cis-genders, but I suspect for some transsexuals as well who haven't really thought about it, since it is not something that is visible in the people around us.



I can only speak from my experience in regard to this. I thought of myself as mid spectrum for a long time. As with so many other things I've gone through over the last couple of years, in finding that so much of what I am and how I've experienced life (including the issues associated with coping) is based in female identity, I have also come to think my original understanding of gender variance was flawed. I know what it feels like to think you are gender variant. I am not at all sure it is the same experience as being gender variant.

[Kathryn Martin]

Again, Misty I would completely agree with you. Hey, it's like an orgy of agreement I am celebrating tonight with you:D.

I actually believe that transsexuality is used for all kinds of legitimization purposes because no one wants to have a serious discussion about gender variance and what it is. It is amazing what you wrote and I would love to hear more to develop a much better understanding what it means to be gender variant.

What you have written about is wonderful and I wish you would write more about it.

I completely agree that the prevalence of gender variance is relatively high and transsexualism very low. As in 1:500 as opposed to 1:10 000. It will be a grand day when gender expression is just another way to be individual and yourself.

[max]

Furthering this line of discussion; could it be possible that some level of body modification might be appropriate for some (non-ts) gender variant persons?

[ReineD]

Gender fluidity is truly incorporating both genders in a Milton Diamond kind of way. There is a biological basis to this I believe.

So much fodder for some real conversation.

I had read about him before, with the John/Joan case. He did aid in stopping arbitrary surgery on intersex infants, until doctors had their informed consents. I don't know if a majority of intersex identify as one or the other gender, or a blend of gender of their own. I imagine they'd be in a similar situation as the bigenders in that they would only see the binary around them, and feel forced to align with one or the other?


Furthering this line of discussion; could it be possible that some level of body modification might be appropriate for some (non-ts) gender variant persons?

Many of them wish to only grow the breasts or develop the softer body curves (we see them post here sometimes) and they alter their facial appearance as much as possible cosmetically to look feminine (beard removal, arched eyebrows, feminine styled hair). But then we get into the difficulty of being accepted as a male who gives off a lot of feminine gender cues. And notwithstanding the OP's positive experiences since being full time, I suspect that many people who do this find themselves somewhat shunned and lose friends and jobs depending on where they live.

I can't tell you how often I've read in the CD side that many CDers put on the breast forms and the makeup just to pass under the radar as much as possible when going out, and if our society was open to feminine men, this is how they would gladly present. Not everyone wants the softer body, and I don't know why this is.

[Kathryn Martin]

Furthering this line of discussion; could it be possible that some level of body modification might be appropriate for some (non-ts) gender variant persons?

There is nothing wrong with people making modifications to their body. In recent years this has become more and more accepted though tattoos, piercings etc. If you wish to have a facial shape or body shape to reflect how you want to look I would be happy for you if you achieved this.

As Reine says, the problem is that so many are pushed to conform to a particular form of appearance (male or female) or behavior because of acceptance issues.

Something else that no one ever says out loud, is the addiction factor associated with "dressing" behavior. The combination of "getting away" with it, passing under the radar, not having people stare at you combined with some relief from inability to present in reflection to how one feels can release a lot of dopamine and often becomes a recurrent, addictive behavior. Most people including many who believe that they are transsexuals, if given the opportunity to live an accepted full life in which they can express themselves freely would never chose to transition let alone have SRS.

The danger is that they become pressed from one societal expectation to another. Not wanting to be a macho man, to be a feminine man does not equate being a woman. The same is true in reverse. There has been this recent huge surge in FtM self identified transsexuals. If society allowed a much broader range of personal expression as inside the acceptable range (like in large urban centers) transitioning would become something that only those with an intense gender /sex conflict would do. In this sense the gender conflict experienced by gender variant persons is a constructed one and arise less as a true conflict but rather as a social barrier.

[ReineD]

Something else that no one ever says out loud, is the addiction factor associated with "dressing" behavior. The combination of "getting away" with it, passing under the radar, not having people stare at you combined with some relief from inability to present in reflection to how one feels can release a lot of dopamine and often becomes a recurrent, addictive behavior. Most people including many who believe that they are transsexuals, if given the opportunity to live an accepted full life in which they can express themselves freely would never chose to transition let alone have SRS.

This sort of brings us back full circle to the OP, who initially was perceived as a fetish CDer.

There is a group of CDers for whom it is all about fetish and titillation, where the risk factor contributes to the overall excitement. To the OP: I'm not saying this describes you. And it's difficult to determine which individuals will stay at this stage, and which will eventually move on from the titillation to a more mature acceptance of self.

But I have to say that people like my SO want to pass under the radar, not because it is exciting, but so as to not be ridiculed in public. Her worst fears were to cause a scene by appearing flagrantly as a man in a dress, and so she took great care with makeup and body shapers to rid herself of as many male gender cues as possible. But now that she has gotten to know some people in the mainstream, in the next town over who accept her for who she is, she has redefined herself and moved beyond the expectation that she should be perceived as a birth-woman to the people that she interacts with. She knows that she is not and she knows that the people she talks to know that she is not. But, they don't take her as a male either. I dare say that in their ignorance of the finer points of this community, most likely take it that she is TS.

My SO still wants to pass under the radar and by this I mean appear as a woman in the periphery of passers-by's attention, since to appear as a man in a dress does not generally cause favorable reactions. Such is the issue with living in a binary world. But, when she does begin to actually talk with someone, the strength of her personality and her inner beautiful self :D do much to dispel any unease someone may have when encountering a male who is presenting as a female. Still, it is my experience that strangers are much more open minded than employers, family members, co-workers, students, etc. And so expressing herself in the next town over is the best solution for her at the moment, while she worked on always being herself internally no matter how she presents. This may be difficult to understand but in the beginning of her gender exploration she maintained two distinct sides, "him" and "her", which no longer exist. Now she is just always who s/he is. She very rarely feels the need to dress at home now and when she does, it is with comfortable feminine clothing without all the forms and makeup. There was a time when she would have died rather than have me see her like this. :p If I were to describe my SO's mood most the the time, I'd say that s/he is at peace.

Sorry I made this so long, and if this seems off topic to the OP, I'm hoping that reading about different ways to be gender non-conforming may be helpful.

[TeresaL]

The latter part of this thread has morphed into a conversation with multiple well-said points in every post. Now this is what keeps me from dropping out of crossdressers.com! Regardless or irregardless of our level, we are still researching, sorting, and sifting this affliction :idontknow:(or not) as it applies to us. Though we are "stuck in the middle" with a binary society, we are getting interesting answers and theoretical discussions from within the group.

Flying under the radar and getting away with it is addicting and releases pink dopamine? No way! I'm going to argue against that, but later. For now, I'm going to get into Teresa role and buy a dozen yellow roses for my spouse, from my local vendor. What's your favorite color, Reine? :rose2: x 12


--------
Addicting... Hahah, not me. Bye.

[aalynn88]

[QUOTE
Something else that no one ever says out loud, is the addiction factor associated with "dressing" behavior. The combination of "getting away" with it, passing under the radar, not having people stare at you combined with some relief from inability to present in reflection to how one feels can release a lot of dopamine and often becomes a recurrent, addictive behavior. Most people including many who believe that they are transsexuals, if given the opportunity to live an accepted full life in which they can express themselves freely would never chose to transition let alone have SRS.[/QUOTE]


I agree. As a member of AA, I know how folks can replace one addiction with another. My alcoholic thinking tells me that, Hey, if I enjoy life this much more since I've come out of the closet and started dressing full-time, then maybe I can enjoy it EVEN MORE if I go all the way and get the surgery. I guess if people like me were actually allowed to go through with it and were later dissatisfied, then people who really need the surgery could possibly be denied. Is this why my original post struck a nerve?

I am not entirely convinced that I would be dissatisfied if I could go through with it but I don't know.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

[QUOTE
Something else that no one ever says out loud, is the addiction factor associated with "dressing" behavior. The combination of "getting away" with it, passing under the radar, not having people stare at you combined with some relief from inability to present in reflection to how one feels can release a lot of dopamine and often becomes a recurrent, addictive behavior. Most people including many who believe that they are transsexuals, if given the opportunity to live an accepted full life in which they can express themselves freely would never chose to transition let alone have SRS.

yes...there is a guy called Charles Kane that transitioned and then untransitioned, its clear that he should have never done it...he's a genuinely weird person and very self promoting...and now he is well known for blaming the medical community and anybody else he can think of for his stupidity...

in general, the world is against us...so he is often embraced as a purient example of what can go wrong, and is held up as warning to transsexuals..when in fact, he is simply NOT a transsexual... when some folks here seem to attack others its often just the a case of identifying statements that sound like something this jerk would say...

that all being said, i think you can just step back from trying to overanalyze something this is incomprehensible at first... since this is all new to you in alot of ways, the way you talk about it, the words you use etc are subject to many years of your own bias and feelings about yourself...and subject to a lack of information

the ideas you've talked about don't preclude anything... lots of transsexuals feel sexual feelings about themselves...i thought my own feelings of sexuality meant i could not be ts...wrongs..

also frankly i think the whole pink fog/addicted behaviour is much more of message board/internet/fantasy thing than something that takes hold in real life....its just so easy to come here and talk the talk...i have met 100's of cd's and dozens of ts personally..i have never met anyone, or talked about anyone that is so addicted to appearing female in real life that its confused with being transsexual or a misguided transition..never..lots of "uber dressers" and "identity dressers" that dress at home all the time..but no Charles Kanes...

its not like we make some phone calls and set up the operations...try a couple hours of electrolysis for example...that's a great cure for addiction to femininity...

you are well served to meet the therapist AND try to meet some cd's and ts's people in real life ...maybe through your therapy group... sitting down for a couple hrs with transsexuals would give you 100x more info than you have right now..and what you need more than anything is information..you are smart and thoughtful based on your posts...information will be very powerful for you

[arbon]

I agree. As a member of AA, I know how folks can replace one addiction with another. My alcoholic thinking tells me that, Hey, if I enjoy life this much more since I've come out of the closet and started dressing full-time, then maybe I can enjoy it EVEN MORE if I go all the way and get the surgery. I guess if people like me were actually allowed to go through with it and were later dissatisfied, then people who really need the surgery could possibly be denied. Is this why my original post struck a nerve?

I am not entirely convinced that I would be dissatisfied if I could go through with it but I don't know.

I think what struck the nerve is that you came across as being sexually motivated, like thats what is driving you to consider surgery, and you are worried about loosing you sex drive and not wanting hrt. To me I can't imagine wanting to keep that male sex drive, or understand why someone would not want hrt when they are talking about surgery.

[KateConnors]

Yes exactly, which is why I was glad to see the OP pose the questions, unfortunately just not very well.

I am convinced that early acceptance or a more open gender model would likely have resulted in my NOT transitioning. I did indeed wish I was born a girl but I WAS able to accept my reality and I was able to live a relatively normal life albeit a vaguely unhappy one. For me, my gender issues were tightly intertwined with my sexuality and I think my inability to accept myself as a gay man is at the core of why I needed to transition. I wanted to be gay rather than a TS and I tried in earnest to make the gender queer thing work but ultimately I preferred to be seen as something other than a man. Being a TS was not a desirable outcome, but in my current state of mind, I feel like it was the single best decision I ever made. Having said that, I just can't help but wonder how much my current state of mind has been influenced by socialization and the rigid gender roles that I grew to accept as normal.

I tend to think that as society evolves, we will see far more gender variants and far fewer Transsexuals. Well, eventually. First we'll see a LOT more Transsexuals, then society will begin to evolve to a more constructive understanding of gender expression.

Wow Melissa, that didn't half resonate with me. I tried for a couple of years to remain as a feminine man, moving perhaps towards to gender queer, since I was pretty sure that this was a place where I could be happy and I figured that this would be a place where my friends, family and wife would be able to follow. This caused all kinds of issues with my own self image and marriage, and so I tried to keep as the more generic man since anything else didn't seem to be an option. This of course broke down, and now I'm in full blown transition. I can't really blame my wife, or anyone else, but if given the opportunity to live as a more expressive feminine male, I guess I wouldn't be where I am today.

Given that though, zero regrets regarding transition.

[TeresaL]

Something else that no one ever says out loud, is the addiction factor associated with "dressing" behavior...
... release a lot of dopamine and often becomes a recurrent, addictive behavior.

Ugh. My reparative therapist, in 1995, sent me to SAA to cure me from cross dressing as an addiction. My group consisted of pediphiles, rapists, hookers, and others who were sent by the judicial system for rehab. I'm not against the folks themselves, but the testimonies they brought in when they "slipped" were about things I never want to hear again in my life. On the fifty mile trip back home, there were times when we had to pull over so I could vomit. After three months of attending, I reported to my therapist that I was cured.

It's a little OT, but our experiences combine to describe the seriousness of this mechanism. Lynn, it's crap! But it is us, and we learn to live and live to learn.

[aalynn88]

its not like we make some phone calls and set up the operations...try a couple hours of electrolysis for example...that's a great cure for addiction to femininity...



HAHA They zapped me really hard my most recent session of laser hair removal, ouch, but it was way worth it! Plus it cost me $1,700.00 for just my upper-lip and chin. I went in after reading on the internet lip and chin only cost about 250.00. When I got there, they said thats per session! I've already spent what I consider a small fortune in just the last 6 months or so on that and a whole new wardrobe.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

that sounds like a lot of $$ for laser but i'm looking back 5 years ..
sometimes laser doesn't work well though

electrolysis hurts much worse and can cost 70-100 per hour...and can take 300 or 400 hours...

in any case, its good to get rid of that hair...

[TeresaL]

that sounds like a lot of $$ for laser but i'm looking back 5 years ..
sometimes laser doesn't work well though

electrolysis hurts much worse and can cost 70-100 per hour...and can take 300 or 400 hours...

in any case, its good to get rid of that hair...

And it hurts even more if the electrologist can increase the current. The old machines had a manual rheostat, and they could kill more follicles when cranked! I used to bite a penny, as my gal would rotate the knob clockwise and ask "does it hurt now?"

[Eryn]

I don't know of anyone who has a perfectly hair-free face from laser. I suppose if someone has a sparse jet-black beard and transparent Nordic skin they might get that level of results, but for normal people expect a reduction in hair, but not eradication. If you want proof of this, try to tell the laser place "I'll pay you $3000 if I can keep coming in until I have a smooth face." They won't go for it because they know, as they say in the business "Results Not Typical."

That means that you're going to need electrolysis no matter what, and that isn't exactly fast. Even if you opt for the "pluck-o-thon" approach you're going to have to go through several sessions and quite a lot of clean-up over several months.

I speak from experience. Seven laser treatments and six month of two-hours-per-week electrolysis. I am making progress but hair-free is still a ways away.

[TeresaL]

and that isn't exactly fast.
six month of two-hours-per-week electrolysis. I am making progress but hair-free is still a ways away.
More perspective. I had two months, once or twice per week. Hold your pinky up. That's all she removed. In 1995, it was fifty bucks an hour. My beard is white and doesn't show, but shaving still is a hastle. I just don't know if I can muster up and do it again. LOL

[aalynn88]

I don't know of anyone who has a perfectly hair-free face from laser.

I went to a place called Ideal Image and they said they guarantee permanant removal although every article I read on the internet says there is no such thing as permanant. They said if after 5 sessions over a 10 month period if any grows back any following session is only $30.00 They are all registered nurses that work there. One of them told me you may need to have hormones to keep it from growing back. ???

[Badtranny]

I went to a place called Ideal Image and they said they guarantee permanant removal although every article I read on the internet says there is no such thing as permanant. They said if after 5 sessions over a 10 month period if any grows back any following session is only $30.00 They are all registered nurses that work there. One of them told me you may need to have hormones to keep it from growing back. ???

It would have to be enough hormones to kill you then because HRT doesn't reduce hair growth anywhere as far as I can tell. I still have to shave my chest after 2 years and 5 months on the juice.

[arbon]

The person that did my laser assured me it would be permanent but she was wrong. As for HRT - the woman that does my electrolysis now always asks me how my hormone levels are she believes to that the hrt should be reducing growth, I don't know, maybe it would be a lot worse without hrt.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

just rub some more snake oil on it!!

my first electrologist calls hair removal "bandit science"

its very unpredictable...some lucky souls have had laser work (it worked on my back and chest!!) but did nothing for my face...and 350 hrs of electrolysis has left me with sparse hair on my face but i have to shave every day...others have had some laser and much less electro and they have soft faces.

[Catherine Hopkins]

My electro record now shows 34-24-21-15 hours in my 4 sessions at e3000. That was for full clearance each time so at the start of session 4 I had about 44% the number of hairs as originally.

What it doesn't show is that each hair is weaker and grows more slowly.

My beard was the beard form hell according to the girls at e3000. Tough and fast, I needed to shave twice a day, three times if I was going somewhere special in the evening - and that was to do BOY mode. Now, I shave twice a WEEK and a good shave before getting changed into girl mode will last me all weekend.

On the plus side, because it had never been plucked, waxed or lasered, the follicles were nice and straight so easy to treat.

After 4 sessions, I guess I'm looking at about 1/3 or my original beard in terms of hair numbers but much less in terms of apparent beard.

Next visit might be 12 hours. If progress is maintained, each 3 visits will halve the hairs left and by normal calculations of half lives, 6 is effectively finished so 18 visits in total.

So far, not including flights and hotels, $10,000 or so but money well spent.

[aalynn88]

As to the sex drive, I'm no expert, but when transitioning birth males take androgen blockers or have their testicles removed, they eliminate testosterone production which by itself would eliminate the sex drive. So because bodies need hormones to stay healthy, transitioners need to replace the testosterone with estrogen, and this makes possible a female sex drive, especially after SRS. Other members here can explain it much better than me, but many post-op transwomen do not lose the ability to enjoy having sex, if this was your main concern.

Given that what has been said about me is pretty much true, although some of the wording was pretty blunt and a bit hurtful, I would still be interested in knowing a few things, even though I am not a transexual, and I am more than likely never going to go any further than crossdressing and possibly breast implants. I hope it is ok to ask these questions just because I am curious but if my questions are too much of an intimate nature, I apologize in advance and will never ask them on a forum like this ever again. I first looked at the websites Jorja posted links to but did not find an answer to what Im about to ask. Perhaps, I did not read them thorouly enough but anyway, here goes...Once one loses sex drive because of removal of the testacles, has the hrt already initiated some sort of female sex-drive? Do you think some who have gone through SRS, never regained any sex drive? If so, was it still better having "the right parts" and no sex-drive? Does the good feeling I have when dressed like a female, feeling sexy and beautiful, come from sexdrive? Is that also lost? I ask this because I enjoy being dressed up without having sex or masterbating.

I just now went back and read some more and found this...Many people simply assume that the loss of the external male genitalia will result in a complete loss of sexuality. This very naive myth unnecessarily frightens many preop women, and it also furthers prejudice against postop TS women, who are often thought of by the general public as having "desexed themselves".

Certainly a typical male would suffer a catastrophic impact on body image and libido from the loss of his external genitalia. However, it has long been known that with counseling and practice, even males who have lost their genitalia to cancer can recover the capability for arousal and orgasm.

Furthermore, intensely TS women are not "regular guys". They do not suffer a negative impact on body image as a result of SRS, but instead find a greatly enhanced body image"



I may not be TS but not a "typical guy" either. I dont think I would suffer a negative body image as a result of srs.

[Eryn]

...They said if after 5 sessions over a 10 month period if any grows back any following session is only $30.00...

Consdering that a full-beard session laser session can easily be done in 20 minutes, what they have guaranteed is that you can continue paying them $90 an hour for laser. Probably better than the standard rate, but not much of a guarantee of performance.

[Kathryn Martin]

If your surgeon knows her craft functionality is guaranteed. Libido for women is very different from your experience as a male. If you are functioning normally both physiologically and hormonally then libido will be there.

The real question is if you are a woman. There are some who will not experience a transformation of their sexuality and "miss" everything that testosterone brought to their sexuality. That happens especially when transition and SRS is the fantasy of being a woman or the desire to be like a woman goes as far as having SRS. Many late transitioners construct narratives that upon closer inspection and deeper examination reveal that they are not transsexual. The result is they may end up incompatible sexual partners for women ( because they lack a crucial ability for lack of testosterone or lack of penis) and incompatible sexual partners for men because their sexuality is male (if trying to partner with a heterosexual male) or they look to female (boobs, soft skin etc) for a homosexual male partner. So loneliness and sometimes deep depression is the result.

Lynn, decisions to transition and truly bring your body into alignment with your birth gender pre-supposes that in fact you are female to begin with. Unfortunately, simply saying you are after living as a male for 50 years or more is not enough. The real tell tales are not how you feel now or even how you felt as a child, adolescent or adult. They are how you acted and reacted throughout your life and continue to act and react. In this as in so many other areas of life actions speak louder than words. It is in your writing, in every gesture, in your approach to every subject.

[aalynn88]

Thank you Kathryn! This has all been very interesting for me. I finally started reading some very interesting articles like "Overview of Transgendered Sexuality" from a link off one of the links Jorja recommended. Lots of big words I hadn't heard of before like, androphillic, autogynephilia (me) lol. Anyway, Im learning!

[arbon]

oh yeah autogynephilia, I had not thought about that earlier in this thread. Its good though you are learning more, and have time to keep learning more and decide what is right for, which is really what is all comes down - what makes you feel right about you.

[aalynn88]

Bisexual gender dysphorics represent those cases in which the autogynephilic disorder gives rise to some secondary interest in men that coexists with the individual's basic attraction to women. Autogynephilia, as indicated above, may find expression in the fantasy of having intercourse, as a woman, with a man. In bisexual gender dysphoria these fantasies are especially strong; they are therefore more likely to be actualizes - or rather, approximated - with anal or oral intercourse substituting for vaginal - particularly with the bisexual gender dysphoric in partial or complete cross-dress (Benjamin, 1967; Person and Ovesey, 1974). The effective erotic stimulus in these interactions however, is not the male physique of the partner, as it in in true homosexual attraction, but rather the thought of being a women, which is symbolized in the fantasy of being penetrated by a man. For these persons, the male sexual partner serves te same function as women's apparel or make-up, namely, to aid and intensify the fantasy of being a woman

WOW, this is so me!

[ReineD]

Lynn, I'd like to give you a head's up: the topic of autogynephilia (AGP) does NOT belong in this section. AGP (the love of oneself as a woman) is a fetish, and transwomen transition because they have gender dysphoria. They are NOT fetishistic.

A bit of background: A sexologist, Ray Blanchard, coined the AGP term. He claimed it is the reason that TSs who are attracted to women want to transition. This caused a great deal of furor among transwomen, who understandably resented being told that they were motivated to transition for fetish reasons.

I agree though that among fetish crossdressers particularly, AGP can be either autoerotic or with a male partner, if the CDer is not attracted to men in male mode. If you want to discuss AGP, I strongly recommend you do so in the CDer section.

If, however, you are in fact TS and you are using other means to approximate having a woman's body until you have gender reassignment surgery, then that's quite another thing. But honestly I think you should discuss this privately via PM with someone.

[aalynn88]

Lynn, I'd like to give you a head's up: the topic of autogynephilia (AGP) does NOT belong in this section. AGP (the love of oneself as a woman) is a fetish, and transwomen transition because they have gender dysphoria. They are NOT fetishistic.

A bit of background: A sexologist, Ray Blanchard, coined the AGP term. He claimed it is the reason that TSs who are attracted to women want to transition. This caused a great deal of furor among transwomen, who understandably resented being told that they were motivated to transition for fetish reasons.


I agree though that among fetish crossdressers particularly, AGP can be either autoerotic or with a male partner, if the CDer is not attracted to men in male mode. If you want to discuss AGP, I strongly recommend you do so in the CDer section.

If, however, you are in fact TS and you are using other means to approximate having a woman's body until you have gender reassignment surgery, then that's quite another thing. But honestly I think you should discuss this privately via PM with someone.

I understand completely and thank you!

[Beth-Lock]

AGP (the love of oneself as a woman) is a fetish, and transwomen transition because they have gender dysphoria. They are NOT fetishistic.
....
I agree though that among fetish crossdressers particularly, AGP can be either autoerotic or with a male partner, if the CDer is not attracted to men in male mode. If you want to discuss AGP, I strongly recommend you do so in the CDer section.

If, however, you are in fact TS and you are using other means to approximate having a woman's body until you have gender reassignment surgery, then that's quite another thing. But honestly I think you should discuss this privately via PM with someone.

I was not aware of these strange theories and even less, of their tortuous history. My view is that it would be nice if people could be divided neatly into such clear categories, but they can't. On the other hand, I would like to think that someone in the learning stage, should be able to talk about what they are feeling, in all its raw phenomenological reality, without it "sicklied o'r by the pale cast of thought," first. But then as someone else said, I don't own this site.

[Badtranny]

On the other hand, I would like to think that someone in the learning stage, should be able to talk about what they are feeling, in all its raw phenomenological reality, without it "sicklied o'r by the pale cast of thought," first. But then as someone else said, I don't own this site.

Well I agree with you there Beth, I deplore the very idea of anything being off limits for discussion. RD is merely saying that AGP is not a topic for this particular section. Some of us would like to keep the TS section limited to TS topics like the challenges of actually transitioning, or healthcare, or FFS, or SRS, or name changes, or any number of things that people experience when they are transitioning from one gender to the other. TS people have very unique issues and we have this one little section to commiserate and counsel each other. If we're going to have AGP threads here, then we might as well have panty threads. As it is, this little section is one of the best resources on the net for people who are on the road to transition.

[ReineD]

I was not aware of these strange theories and even less, of their tortuous history. My view is that it would be nice if people could be divided neatly into such clear categories, but they can't. On the other hand, I would like to think that someone in the learning stage, should be able to talk about what they are feeling, in all its raw phenomenological reality, without it "sicklied o'r by the pale cast of thought," first. But then as someone else said, I don't own this site.

Melissa said it for me, Beth.

It would cause a flame war if we opened up the topic of transitioning for fetish reasons in the TS section. There has been a lot of ill will in this thread already with mod and admin warnings and I was concerned that it would get worse. I also felt that Lynn deserved a head's up because she's new.

If you haven't come across the contention among transwomen surrounding AGP & Blanchard, and having transsexuality classified as a paraphilia in the DSM up until version 5 for "non-homosexual" TSs, you should google it.

[Kathryn Martin]

I was not aware of these strange theories and even less, of their tortuous history. My view is that it would be nice if people could be divided neatly into such clear categories, but they can't. On the other hand, I would like to think that someone in the learning stage, should be able to talk about what they are feeling, in all its raw phenomenological reality, without it "sicklied o'r by the pale cast of thought," first. But then as someone else said, I don't own this site.

These strange theories unfortunately inform much as it affects gender variant and transsexual persons. Blanchard and Zucker sat on the DSM 5 amendments committee and Zucker was actually the chairman. I am curious how you have come so far without even becoming aware of them. You don't strike me as someone who would not have done research.

I don't think anyone is preventing anyone else from talking about their feelings. Part of the phenomenon however is that you have someone who based on fetishistic compulsion or motivation dreams about extreme body modification. The question then becomes if this is the right place. If you pay close attention to what people report here on this site then developing a phenomenological approach to the classification of who it is you are talking to is not so far away. There is little or no "sicklied o'r by the pale cast of thought" in observing and developing concepts of the different phenomena.

As Misty says there is this tiny little place where we can talk about things that are really transition related and yet it is consistently flooded with whomever and their fetishistic dreams.

I have met a number of people over the last years who regretted having SRS, for some the ultimate fantasy and desire had become so strong they purchased their surgery clearance letter online. One of them hated what she had become the morning after the surgery and has never recovered from the trauma. Others find that their male sexuality cannot be transported across the divide and are unable to evolve simply because they are not women. Women are not constructed by some hormones, the knife of a surgeon. There is a reason that the surgery is called sex re-assignment or gender confirmation surgery . In either case it expresses the purpose, namely that the body is brought into alignment with the innate gender. This something I would point out to Reine. There is no such things as a re-assignment of gender and certainly not by surgical means. The utter loneliness that men in women's bodies, brought about by surgery that should not have been permitted in the first place, experience is very grave but there is no going back. So they seek another transperson in a similar situation just to be not so lonely anymore. But most don't. Because they cannot find a way to align the need to be with the real object of their attraction and being with someone who clearly is not.

For me much of what fills these pages is like a peepshow. The fascination with trainswrecks rather than counsel, support and resource, and above all question those bold statements of "I am transsexual" rather than sing the "you go gurl" choir.

[Frances]

I decided to break my vow to never post again in the open forum, and I actually think that AGP is a proper topic for this section.

Most cis-gendered people are obsessed with the cause of transsexuality. Cis-gendered professionals have all sorts of pet theories regarding the motivation of transsexuals, including AGP, to the point that trans people even question themselves.

The problem with AGP is its caracterization as a motive or a cause. In fact, it's totally normal. A young girl discovering her sexuality normally envisions herself having sex as a woman, even if she inhabits a male body. If she's strong-willed enough and surrounded by supporting people, she will eventually acquire that female body and feel whole, including in her sexuality. How could a trans person who has not transitioned not envision him or herself in the body of the other sex? Cis-gendered girls often think of themselves as fully developped mature adults being desired by a mate while masturbating. Do they have AGP?

Some trans people (myself included) have been subjected to negative reinforcement throughout childhood and adolescence about crossing the gender divide, so much so that they start feeling intense shame and hating that part of themselves. In my case, there was a cleavage in my personality and sexual fantasy became the only place where my true self could exist.

Where I differ a lot of people on this site, it that I saw AGP was a reason to NOT transition. I thought I had a fetish, and that the best possible recourse was getting cured of the fetish, not transitioning. So I went to all sorts of professionals to find a cure (from age 16 to my late thirties). It did not work. When I faced the real truth, that I was a girl having normal fantasies for a girl, and not a guy with a fetish, I allowed myself to transition (after years of therapy). I would have prefered it being a fetish, believe me. Transition sucks big time!

Trans people, however, can have paraphilias as well as being trans. One does not exclude the other.

[Kathryn Martin]

I just wanted to clear something up, Frances.

A young girl becoming aroused by imagining sex with a man is not autogynephiliac even if the girl has a boy body at the time.

[aalynn88]

"There are those crossdressers whose interest in cross dressing is not only limited to the Erotic, but also extends into the core of who they are. These cross dressers may or may not consider themselves to be transexual. They may or may not feel that they were born a genetic female inside the body of a male: most of those I've spoken with do not have the desire to become physiologically female: they simply feel more comfortable in female clothing and makeup, and spend as much time as possible dressed en femme.
I have spoken to crossdressers who, although they do not wish to go through with a full SRS have come to the point where they are completely comfortable with their female identity, even getting to the point where they live 24/7 as a female, working and socializing while fully feminized"


So its not JUST a fetish. This is me.

[Badtranny]

So its not JUST a fetish. This is me.

Which is what several of the girls have been saying all along. So after all of the hurt feelings and deleted posts, you have come to the conclusion that you are a cross-dresser.

Good for you, there's a rather large Forum for cross-dressers here.

[Jorja]

So after all of the hurt feelings and deleted posts, you have come to the conclusion that you are a cross-dresser.

Good for you, there's a rather large Forum for cross-dressers here.

Ah, but is she simply a cross-dresser? That is the 64 thousand dollar question that only time will tell as she learns more about herself.

[aalynn88]

Which is what several of the girls have been saying all along. So after all of the hurt feelings and deleted posts, you have come to the conclusion that you are a cross-dresser.

Good for you, there's a rather large Forum for cross-dressers here.

It seems to me that even though Im not a TS, this is was the more appropriate forum for my questions. I looked through a lot of the CD threads which are all about JUST crossdressing.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

to me the thing that makes transsexuals different can be thought of from the reverse perspective... if you are not ts, you can have some semblance of a rewarding male life..if you have any kind of meaningful fullfilling male role in the world, one that you enjoy and cherish simply for what it is, then you are not transsexual.... gender is not fluid for transsexuals, it is uncompromising and immutable

the idea that a person would come here to question whether they are ts, be "told" that they are not likely ts and then get upset about it is a very silly thing..and for all the years i've been here i see it over and over again...
the word "just" is not a perjorative unless you wish it to be... I would have traded my kingdom to be "just" a crossdresser...


Being transsexual is not something to aspire too

[Beth-Lock]

But I think we can agree, that when someone new or old for that matter posts something inappropriate or in the wrong category, and mostly just because they sincerely don't know, exactly what they don't know, trying to 'correct' them by flaming is not a good idea.

Maybe we need a system of coaches, who can move the discussion with such a person to PM's until they know. Then it will be up to them to agree or not. Flaming at somebody on a thread, amounts to public humiliation if it works, and alienation and perhaps subsequent withdrawal from this site if it does not. The third possibility, is they think flaming and trash talking is normal to this site, and end up being a pain to others here, for quite a while.

[Kathryn Martin]

Being transsexual is not something to aspire too

I would have preferred not to be. If the blue pill had been the out of all of this I would have taken it.

[Jorja]

Being transsexual is not something to aspire too

I would have wanted to be born with a like mind and body. It was bad enough to warrant a factory recall, but since the baby factory had shut down, I had to do some after-market modifications. It seems to work fine now. Maintenance is a bit more than it was but its working fine.

[aalynn88]

the idea that a person would come here to question whether they are ts, be "told" that they are not likely ts and then get upset about it is a very silly thing..and for all the years i've been here i see it over and over again...
the word "just" is not a perjorative unless you wish it to be... I would have traded my kingdom to be "just" a crossdresser...


Being transsexual is not something to aspire too

Trust me, I DO NOT aspire to be a transexual. I was aspiring to be an anatomically correct female which I now understand, because of the info I recieved on this, the TS forum, is impossible.

You see, i just wanna be able to use the ladies room and in Texas thats illegal!! lol

[Rianna Humble]

I was aspiring to be an anatomically correct female

Are you sure about that? It seems in total opposition to your statement

I just wanna keep my male libido and be a man in a womans body, why don't they let guys get the surgery without taking hormones first?

I really think you need to find a competent gender therapist and find out what it is you do want. It seems to me that even after such a long thread, you are not at all clear on that point.

[aalynn88]

Oh im clear on the point

I was aspiring to be an anatomically correct female with a male gender. There...get it? Its because I have an autogynephillic disorder. Its not at all in opposition to my original statment. To me, that means exactly the same thing. Man in a womans body and anatomically correct female with male gender.

[ReineD]

This something I would point out to Reine. There is no such things as a re-assignment of gender and certainly not by surgical means.

I know. I used the wrong term, sorry.



I was aspiring to be an anatomically correct female with a male gender. There...get it? Its because I have an autogynephillic disorder. Its not at all in opposition to my original statment. To me, that means exactly the same thing. Man in a womans body and anatomically correct female with male gender.

Lynn, you said earlier that you had looked in the CDing section and you only saw threads relating to the CDing itself. You should start your own thread there and you will see there are many other CDers who feel like you do. Every once in a while someone will start a thread asking the CD members how many would like to be women, and I'd say that half or more than half say that like you, they would. Yet, these members do not post in the TS section, they are not tortured by having to live in a male body, they are not taking steps to change their sex to match their internal genders, except perhaps wanting breasts and softer curves.

This does not describe transsexuals, and it's important to know the difference.

There was even a long running thread once asking which the CDers would prefer, having breasts or a vagina. If memory serves, the responses were split 50/50, with very few people saying "neither".

[aalynn88]

Thanks. I'll do it!

Or maybe I should just watch Hedwig and the Angry Inch again instead!!

[max]

..they are not tortured by having to live in a male body...

There are twenty-seven thousand members and you are painting with an awfully broad brush there Reine. There are plenty of people who aren't TS who still experience gender dysphoria.

[ReineD]

Broad brush? There are different levels of gender dysphoria. Those who are tortured by having a male body, whose male bodies are diametrically opposed to their genders and for whom transition is a do or die situation, are the people who will transition . My SO has mild gender dysphoria. S/he is not tortured by having a male body. S/he knows that s/he is not a woman. S/he is not transsexual and s/he will not transition, no matter how appealing the thought has been at various times in her life. She is not a male either.


- Edited after Kathryn's post, transition meaning to align the body to internal gender. And not to "cross over" to the other gender, to "become" a woman. A TS is already a woman.

[Kathryn Martin]

That is because what transsexuals experience is inaccurately described as gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is in fact at the center of being gender variant.


There are twenty-seven thousand members and you are painting with an awfully broad brush there Reine. There are plenty of people who aren't TS who still experience gender dysphoria.

[Michelle.M]

Oh im clear on the point

Um, right. Sorry, but you seem to be the only one who thinks so.


I was aspiring to be an anatomically correct female with a male gender. There...get it?

No, I don't get it. THAT's the point you're clear on? That you're a female impersonator? A pre-op *******? An extreme crossdresser? A non-op transman born with a male body that needs to be surgically un-corrected?


To me, that means exactly the same thing. Man in a womans body and anatomically correct female with male gender.

I suppose anyone can define anything in any way they find convenient. Oh, I cannot stress strongly enough how desperately you need therapy!

[aalynn88]

Um, right. Sorry, but you seem to be the only one who thinks so.



No, I don't get it. THAT's the point you're clear on? That you're a female impersonator? A pre-op *******? An extreme crossdresser? A non-op transman born with a male body that needs to be surgically un-corrected?



I suppose anyone can define anything in any way they find convenient. Oh, I cannot stress strongly enough how desperately you need therapy!

Yes I can see how you wouldn't understand someone who wants basically the opposite of what a transexual needs. I'm a man and I want to be in the wrong body. Some of us dudes are perverted like that.


You sound angry? hope you feel better soon!

[Catherine Hopkins]

Lynn. I've been defending you on this thread BUT you need to continue this OUTSIDE the Transsexual Forum.

You've just said you're the opposite of a Transsexual so please, take it somewhere more appropriate?

[aalynn88]

oky dok im done here

[Tamara Croft]

Damn right you're done, thread closed.


And don't you come in this section again with your :BS: