a thread to discuss transexuality

[Badtranny]

I thought it might be a nice change ;-)

I've been thinking a lot lately about how the younger folks relate to gender issues and sexuality. Maybe it's because I'll be turning 45 later this month but I'm inspired by the TS people who are 20 years behind me.

I mentioned earlier that I may not have transitioned if I could have accepted myself as something in between or even gay, and of course I don't know that for sure but I can't help but be a little bit disenchanted with my apparent need to validate the damn gender binary.

Part of me wishes I was stronger or maybe not so indoctrinated and I would be able to live in the middle or outside the margins. Then another part of me is profoundly comfortable and content in my new role as a woman or at least distinctly not male. I do love my new life and I was definitely not happy while I was exploring the other roles of gender queer, or gay man, or the biggest and most earnest effort of all; straight man.

Maybe for me there really wasn't a choice and I did exactly what I was supposed to do, but what if I had been raised with accepting parents? Would I have been able to be happy as something else? My sexuality is obviously not up for discussion since I've been attracted to men for as long as I can remember, but I have a hard time believing my gender expression would be female today if I hadn't been taught that from the beginning.

Did I transition because I was socialized to do so?

[kellycan27]

Maybe your attraction to men was no different than any other heterosexual females attraction to same rather than gay or gender queer and you just didn't realize it at the time that you were born female? Just sayin...
Did you come out to your parents as being gay or did you assume that they would not or could not accept it?
Kel

[melissaK]

Oh Melissa, you make my head hurt. It's a good question. I was going to go to sleep, now my head is a buzz.

But for me it's not hard to answer. The idea I'm a woman is as old in me as I am. The idea I want to change is as old as the day I learned it was even possible. Rather, all my social conditioning was to stay as I was. Auuughhh. I wish so much that "stay as you are" conditioning would've been absent.

And I'm a lesbian at heart. It goes way back to first learning about them, and again I'm pretty darn sure. (I will keep an open mind through the coming years though). And I'm certain no one conditioned me for that whacked out role. I mean how sublimely absurd is it to want to be a woman so you can have sex with a woman? Machevelli himself wouldnt engineer such social programming.

But my experiences don't really do the job of illuminating what made you as you are. The guy interested in a guy POV is rather profoundly different.

So good night. I'll look forward to others contributions on this one.

[Badtranny]

Maybe your attraction to men was no different than any other heterosexual females attraction to same rather than gay or gender queer and you just didn't realize it at the time that you were born female? Just sayin...
Did you come out to your parents as being gay or did you assume that they would not or could not accept it?
Kel

Really excellent point Kellz. It just occurred to me at this moment that my perspective may have been backwards. I grew up thinking I was gay because I thought all gay guys wanted to be girls, now it occurs to me that maybe I was attracted to guys because I already identified as a girl. I never dreamed that the boys I liked would be even remotely interested in me because I was a boy too after all and they weren't gay like me. Rough memories.

My attempts at being openly gay were laughable. I was a fish out of water so to speak and that was a lonely experience.

So now I'm happy, but am I happy because I simply can't accept a middle ground for myself? Why was it so important that I be seen as a woman when younger people don't seem to be so rigid. It bothers me that I'm only reinforcing these archaic notions of gender.

NOTE: This discussion is purely academic as my transition is done, and I have no interest in living any other way.

[kellycan27]

I am not sure that I understand what you mean by younger ones being more content to stay in the middle ground. Almost all of the younger girls that I know who have the means and the ability to transition want to move forward. Perhaps you feel the need to make up for lost time now that you can basically see the light at the end of the tunnel?

[Starling]

You're pretty much (not) screwed if you're gay, and you like straight men. At least I didn't have that quandary to deal with. I went through a stretch of thinking I was gay, because it didn't compute that I was a girl, until I settled down and realized I wasn't sexually attracted to men--well, except for a few movie stars that anyone would bed if they had the chance. But in my moments of reverie, I could certainly imagine being a girl with other girls, and I remember being attracted to lesbians or slightly mannish women in particular.

I spent many years being romantically involved with women because, as I realized much too late, I wanted to love them as sisters, and the price of admission was sex. I've done fairly well in my life, but as a man I've never felt like anything but a square peg. It's not that I feel so girly-frilly, but that by occupying the female role I would have a strong fulcrum to pivot round. I know it's true because I've experienced it, if only for a few months.

:) Lallie

[Inna]

What ifs, are the concept of our limited mind calculating anything at hand, even the stuff which does not exist such as past or future!
So reminiscing about what could have been if this or that, is simply pointless effort to make an influence on now.

As too transition, my own personal transition, the effort of immense proportion I have undertaken was simply bigger then life. Have I truly known the pain that awaits I would had been scared sh&$less out of my wits and probably would have never taken the first step. What was the catalyst for me, was the fact of the end, the end point I had come to. I had no choice but two distinctly opposite scenarios, one of death, and other of transition.


Personally, as I had stated before, I strongly believe that Transexuality is a imperilment, a birth defect of an illness of dis-congruity.

As I had fought and won the battle and come across to the other side of visual presentation, I am no longer transsexual, but a woman I always was.
To the society, and those who know of my path, I shall forever remain transsexual, but that is their own package, not mine. To the world at large i am a woman with the past, a transsexuality survivor, post transexuality woman.

[Rianna Humble]

Through the years we have had small numbers of people who bucked the gender binary but that never made me believe that I should be one of them.

I dreamt 50 years ago of getting married as the bride - you know the sort of scene that every small girl dreams of at that age - except my body kept telling me that I wasn't a girl :bigsmack:

At that time even dreaming about getting the right body was WAY beyond the pale.

Today, society has a very slight tolerance for transsexuals and an even slighter tolerance of those who are outside of the binary. Fortunately, there are fora such as these that can give people permission to explore the concept that they might be more than just male or female.

I am not convinced that any change in attitude to gender fluidity or bigender will reduce the number of transsexuals, but it might reduce the number of people who fantasise about becoming TS

An article in a paper this weekend that tries to give itself a reputation for progressive thought has brought home to me just how slight that tolerance is, when they used upset with a so-called joke about Brazilian Transsexuals as an excuse for spewing out the most vile anti-trans propaganda I have ever read.

[I Am Paula]

Melissa- Your comment, "comfortable and content in my new role as a woman or at least distinctly not male", is the best description of me I've run across. Off topic but thanks.-Celeste

[kimdl93]

I don't think so. Its not surprising that self doubts persist - its hard to shake something you've lived with for so much of your life. So, maybe that self critical voice(I should have been this/I should have done that/I should have been stronger) is a residual from those early life experiences.

[Michelle.M]

I mentioned earlier that I may not have transitioned if I could have accepted myself as something in between or even gay, and of course I don't know that for sure but I can't help but be a little bit disenchanted with my apparent need to validate the damn gender binary . . . I do love my new life and I was definitely not happy while I was exploring the other roles of gender queer, or gay man, or the biggest and most earnest effort of all; straight man.


We (ie: trans folks) ardently maintain that gender identity and sexual orientation are distinct and wholly unrelated, and by now the cisgender world is starting to buy into that. YET, at times there are sexual aspects of our gender expression and also some aspects of our sexual orientation that promote and reinforce the gender binary and these things are are not necessarily conflated, but the lines do seem to cross each other.

Experimentation with other identities (genderqueer, gay, straight, crossdresser, etc) are frequently seen as us wandering lost in the wilderness looking for a way home. I tend to believe these detours are a natural part of discovery and growth as we find ourselves, and are actually helpful towards making us the whole people we aspire to be.


My sexuality is obviously not up for discussion since I've been attracted to men for as long as I can remember, but I have a hard time believing my gender expression would be female today if I hadn't been taught that from the beginning.

This reminds me of a conversation you and I started in Mexico.

We all (trans and cisgendered folk, gay and straight alike) tend to see sexual orientation as an issue of plumbing rather than in its own binary frame of reference, that being the essence of the "homo" / "hetero" archetype.

Consider the words themselves. Based in Greek (not in Latin, as many assume), "homo" alludes to sameness, oneness, multiple distinct things with similar properties. Homonyms are different words with the same sounds; a homogeneous voting bloc is one where the members tend to be largely the same although they are individuals.

"Hetero" is the yin-yan, the opposite number, the complement. Not the matching part but the other part which mates and thus the two become a unit.

Therefore, someone who identifies as homosexual is one who seeks his or her similar part, but that similarity is based on our essential humanity and not in our genitals. I'm a woman, and if I wanted my similar number I'd seek another woman irrespective of how she might be configured under her clothing. That we might not have a satisfactory sex life is another issue entirely. Remember - gender and sex are not related, right?

So, following this thread, when a CD in a discussion here says "I'm straight" he really and truly is interested in women and that's not likely to change, and it need not be a bone of contention for anyone who fails to understand that.

But there is a difference between sexual PREFERENCE and sexual ORIENTATION.

If a TS person here says "I'm straight, I've always been with women and I can't see myself changing that" then at some point a subtle but interesting semantic shift occurs. That person's sexual PREFERENCE does not change (preferred women before transition, prefers women during and after transition) but there is a de facto change to sexual ORIENTATION. Yes, my friend, by definition you are now a lesbian.

Someone who identifies as heterosexual seeks their opposite number (I include myself as a member of that tribe). As a pre-transition person desperately trying to be a straight man I dated women and did a pretty good job of it, not because they had girl parts but because they were different from me. When I finally came to admit that I had more in common with the women I was dating than I had allowed myself to believe I stopped dating altogether until I could sort it out.

Once I had a better handle on my womanhood I began dating again and experienced my own subtle semantic shift. I discovered that I was heterosexual before I began my transition and continued to be heterosexual regardless of what other personal discoveries I was making. My sexual ORIENTATION had not changed at all but my PREFERENCE had, as evidenced by a change in the gender of the partners I was choosing.


Did I transition because I was socialized to do so?

Paradoxically, Yes! I think that a highly socialized gender binary archetype does, in fact, drive us to make certain choices that we might not make in a mythical genderless society. Easing gender dissonance requires that certain steps be taken to find our own place to fit in. By definition, "fitting in" is a form of socialization in itself.

And you know what? It's actually not bad. Personally, I'm really digging it!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

having followed your posts from the beginning, i am pretty sure Melissa that you are simply a woman that grew up the same way we all did..

and you made these bargains in your head..and those bargains were influenced by ideas that took hold in your 4,6,8 year old brain, influenced by your parents, schools and friends, influenced by your earliest exposures to media the tends to depict us a decievers and freaks, and finally by your own experience of your own sexuality......to me that's all it is...

the thing is you transitioned, and you know what that feels like right?? and you know how right it feels yes? so unfortunately even tho it may seem politically incorrect to you, you are living proof that there is something to the gender binary

most people are born NOT gender variant in any way... that's just the way it is.....gender queer people are not transsexuals (unless in denial)....much like cisgender person, gender queer/bi gender is unfathomable to me, i cannot internalize how that would feel or what that would mean??? is it a minute by minute thing? day to day?? is it a fixed percentage of each?? genderless?? i can't imagine why anyone would want that.... of course, i'm just doing the same thing cisgender people do to us....its not a bias or prejeduce, i just don't get it..

of course, being ts, i know that all kinds of gender variances are possible, and kudos to people living the way they want...

+++++++

I just saw this after i posted..i thought michelles post was excellent...summing it up..

"And you know what? It's actually not bad. Personally, I'm really digging it! "

===and the reason she digs it is because shes living her natural state of being, and that's what we can all aspire to, gq, ts, cd, and xyzpdq's alike



i guess what i'm saying is that my bet is that you'd be in the same place...because living a gender queer lifestyle doesnt do much more for a transsexual than living as a male(or male cd).. just like gender queer people cannot NOT be GQ we cannot NOT be ts...

you'd have been on a different path, with the same or a very similar result...its self selecting, you are ts or not, you transition because of it or not...by your actions you are a person of courage and will...

same for GQ people...they live GQ or not..and if their "not" includes a transition, i'd bet my bottom dollar they would mostly regret it, because gender queer means male too...

[Michelle.M]

I just saw this after i posted..i thought michelles post was excellent...summing it up..

"And you know what? It's actually not bad. Personally, I'm really digging it! "

===and the reason she digs it is because shes living her natural state of being, and that's what we can all aspire to, gq, ts, cd, and xyzpdq's alike

You just made my day! I love it when others can distill my excessive wordiness to an essential thought. Thank you!

[Beverley Sims]

Melissa,
If your parents had accepted you when you were younger I feel you would have followed your feelings then.
This would have been the easy way and you may have found yourself with more freedom to express yourself.
Over the years you have had advice from internet doctors like myself who look from the outside and try to interpret what is going on inside you.
I remember as a guy talking to two friends in total turmoil before they started their transitions at age 20.
They had no one to turn to and the advice they got was from specialists with a book and three years of experience.
They had a thesaurus that described the phrase Gender Dysphoria I think.
As friends we could all sit and talk and cry together, wipe away our tears and come back for more later.
When HRT started it just got worse, very wet hankies and lots of tissues.
They were a resounding success and were great looking women. Age appropriate they are still great looking now.
You may have taken up a gay lifestyle.
I mean were you inclined to be gay, CD or trans then.
I am posting this without reading others replies so if it is in error or repetitive, sorry.

[kellycan27]

Maybe I can make this a little easier to understand. After reading a couple of these long in depth replies my head started to spin. I think that for me anyway.... Because I transitioned young I was better able to cope because I wasn't carrying a ton of baggage. I had not been socialized to the extent that some of the older people had been and in fact had not really lived as a man with all the trappings of men. I had no clue as to binary and at age 13 ( when I finally figured out that I should have been born a girl).... Gays and homos were just guys who weren't as rough and tough as the guys who were calling them faggots or sissys. I had no idea that these guys were actually having sex with other guys. I had my first sexual experience when I was 15 with a man who was 30 years my senior who told me that girls... have sex with boys and he proceeded to show me how it worked. It seemed pretty logical and natural to me. I was a girl and he was a boy... genitals not withstanding. My genitals had nothing to do with it as I had yet to really make the distinction between sex with men and sex with women. I had had no clue as to physical sex what so ever. At 15 I was basically a clean slate....
By the time I graduated high school I better understood the problems that being tg could bring so I kept it hidden. Once I gor into college attitudes were a lot more relaxed and I was able to flourish and by age 20 I was living and working full time as Kelly. I knew some other tg folks but never joined any tg groups nor did I attend tg venues. Likewise I never felt the need to scour the Internet in hopes of finding out why I was like I was.

[Brigitte451]

Misty
Interesting questions. I am a little more than 20 years your senior and am likewise inspired by you and people your age as well as younger. At my advanced age some people forget why they were interested in either sex (lol) so you may question the relevance of my perspective/story but here it is anyway:

A little over three years ago I drove up to Tahoe with a St Bernard, boat, laptop, $5 Rite Aid skirt and $2 baby doll tee. I was only a couple of months into cross dressing and I stumbled onto this site and joined. That was my first time out and this is my first post three years later.

I had just discovered that I was far less sure of my ender identity than of my sexual preference. I “knew” if I were a female I would be a lesbian. I had had a more or less okay life as a heterosexual male. I and was getting divorced after almost to thirty five years of marriage. I was always attracted to women and not at all to men, either in concept or in the flesh --really! I had never even considered gender dysphoria issues. But I had also known that there was something wrong. “Things” would surface at times seemingly without the slightest possibility of my controlling or understanding them, things that didn’t fit the male role as I saw it. Cross dressing seemed to explain stuff at the time. My original goal was to be able to pass back and forth between genders seamlessly and easily (ha ha ha... as opposed to say cross dressing every now and then) but I still saw myself as basically a heterosexual male. Little did I know!

Three years farther along, a slow but inexorable march toward full transition is speeding up. I am nearly done with facial hair, new nose and eyes and now a couple of days shy of two months on hrt. My sexuality as not as obvious as the emerging boobs that I cheer on every day. I now consider, at least in the abstract, the possibility of being attracted to straight men. Things aren’t becoming any clearer just more fluid.

I often wonder if there isn’t something like a heterosexuality gene. We both know people who consider themselves heterosexual but can be attracted to either men or women as long as they are in the “opposite sex” role at the time. I’m still attracted to straight women but surprisingly I seem less interested in lesbians now that I might be one. Could be my attraction to straight women is just a holdover from identifying as male (or as I like to say “living in the enemy camp”) for most of my life. As I continue to transition. I may find “heterosexual woman” to be the most comfortable role.

Your thought about wishing for strength to do otherwise might in part be due to a kind of political correctness within our own community. We seem to push guilt onto those who choose a “conventional path” rather than rebel for the sake of a cause. Wanting to pass (oops there is that dirty word again), even more so to those who do pass and live easily in their new gender. God forbid we choose some degree of stealth. I wish we would cut ourselves some slack and celebrate each of us for what we are and have chosen, even those of us who do not choose or feel right being unconventional Most of us would appreciate not being judged by society at large, the “other” real world. How can we even wish for that when we judge ourselves so unfairly?

A gender continuum and multiple sexual orientations (hell that may be a continuum as well) give us an infinite number of possible choices. We can’t be all of them (usually) but we should be able pick one and go with it without being made to feel guilt over why we chose it or for feeling a need to choose at all. I proudly and hole-heartedly choose the binary convention because it is what makes me happy. It is “what I was supposed to do” even if I was socialized to do so.

Sexual orientation is a separate issue for me (still up for grabs apparently) but didn’t play a serious role in my transitioning. I agree with Kelly below. You may see a connection simply because your orientation and identity conflicted while your body was still male

You have done fabulously in discovering and embracing what makes you happy. You need not be disconcerted about “the damn gender binary’ or whether you have been socialized to do much of anything including, and especially, transitioning.

Just go girl!

--Terry

P.S.

“Truth is truth--you can’t have opinions about truth” --Prof. Peter E. Schickely

[Tammy V]

In the younger generation being genderqueer or gender non conforming is much more accepted so younger people probably have a much easier time if their desire is to present outside the gender binary. I don't think that feeling is more common in younger people just more accepted.

I used to think I was gay also and had several gay experiences when I was younger (late teens, early 20's). I did not feel comnfortable in them and felt badly afterwards. Most of the time I was not even able to go through with it, as in walked away when something started to happen. Gay friends have always told me when they were first with another gay person things finally felt right so I knew I wasn't gay.

The first girlfriend I had I was unable to perform physically with even though I was attracted to her and loved spending time with her, kissing her etc. I finally met an older woman at 23 and eventually got married and got over my sexual inablity but never felt right or complete in the male role. After dreaming about being female since I was a small child and wearing my mom's/wife's clothes when I could, at 40 years old I finally went out and bought a wig, full make up and rudimentary wardrobe and started cding. After a few years of progressing I finally let myself date a few men while presenting female and this did feel right to me. This felt much better to me because I saw myself as female.

At 47 I started my transition and began living full time recently at 48. I have to consider myself bisexual but I consider the straight part being attracted to men. I have never felt more right or better with myself than I do now and am very much in love and happy with my boyfriend. Recently I seperated from my wife (who knew about everything for a long time) and even though we were not happy, the seperation has been very hard to take. So just when I thought I had everything figured out, more confusion sets in. I think I am just missing her and our 25 years together and now realize that even though I had found someone else, I still love her.

She did help me along in my journey in many ways but chose not to join me on it. I am much happier as a woman and would not want to be in between the gender binary but I have to realize now that I am in between on the sexuality binary and being bisexual can be hard to manage. Or maybe it was just that two relationships were hard to manage. At least I am with the one now that shows me love as the other one (marriage) had been just a friendship for most of the time we were together.

[max]

In the younger generation being genderqueer or gender non conforming is much more accepted so younger people probably have a much easier time if their desire is to present outside the gender binary.
People keep saying this. What are you basing this on?

[Tammy V]

ancecdotal evidence and observations

[KellyJameson]

This is a question that has haunted me as well. Was I defeated by something bigger than me so acted cowardly or unwisely for giving into it.

There is truth that part of me simply became tired of fighting against living "in between" all the time but more than fighting trying to make the world change to accommodate me this living "in between" was alienating me not only from others but myself.

I'm a cat born in the body of a dog. The dogs do not want to run with me because I run like a cat and the cats do not want to play with me because I look like a dog and they think I want to eat them.

The dogs get freaked out because I cough up hairballs and the cats get pissed off because I'm not good at climbing trees because my "paws" get in the way.

At some point it becomes exhausting always being on the outside looking in at both genders who do not see you.

And than there is the problem of "experiencing yourself" It is very difficult to experience yourself as a cat when you are in the body of a dog.

The whole experience is "ugly" and absolutely nothing feels "normal" Cats Rule and Dogs Drool.

People can "play" at bending gender all they want, but it is because they can play with it that they do not have a problem.

Take the choice away and than lets see how much fun they think it is.

Sorry Melissa, I know you are a dog lover so the reverse would be true for you.

[Angela Campbell]

This really makes me wonder about so many things. I have always been attracted to females, just as I have always wanted to be a female. I am very repulsed by males as either a lover or a friend. I wonder if it was because of the way I was subjected to the cruel way some boys acted to us who are different? I was ridiculed, and even beaten by the boys when young, and never wanted to play with them and stuck to spending time with the girls. I knew I was different, but so did they. Was this torment I lived with when younger the reason I am attracted only to females, and stuck in the middle, afraid to go further with transition? If I had been in a more supportive envoronment would I prefer men?

[ColleenA]

I am very repulsed by males as either a lover or a friend. I wonder if it was because of the way I was subjected to the cruel way some boys acted to us who are different? I was ridiculed, and even beaten by the boys when young, and never wanted to play with them ...

I can easily imagine this was a huge contributing factor, just a girl but almost a lady, because I know others for whom this is true.

[Jorja]

I saw this thread a couple of days ago and have been thinking about it. Transsexuality is a designer "condition". While there are common things between us, no two are the same. Different upbringing, different circumstances, different locations. Even the level of GID is different. Yet, there seems to be a common “cure” for the condition. Transition.

I do a lot of volunteer work with transgender youth. I find they are a lot more open about their feelings, gender issues and sexuality than I ever was. Most of them do not have all the excessive baggage age will pile on. They still are fighting the battle on the home front. It seems mothers are more able to accept and understand than fathers when you get into the 14 – 18 year old group. However, I see more young couples being supportive of their children at younger ages.

I think it goes without saying, most of us would not have transitioned if we could have accepted ourselves as something else. However, being a clown in the circus was not as appealing to me. I think it is human nature to look to the past to learn for the future. But…. You have radically altered the present so the past doesn’t hold much for you. It is just that, the past. Look toward the future to create your past, if that makes sense.

I also think in this day and age of instant information overload we tend to get lost a lot easier. Back when I transitioned we didn’t yet have the internet. We rarely were able to connect with another like-minded person. We didn’t have information at out fingertips 24/7. What information that was out there was hard to come by. Gender therapy was in its infancy and there was not really any help there. We couldn’t sit around thinking about the what ifs and woulda, coulda, shoulda things. I don’t know if this was good or bad for us. In some ways I think maybe it was better. We focused on what our present goals were and how we were going to achieve them to make our future better. Life is what you make it.

[ReineD]

Did I transition because I was socialized to do so?

After reading some post-op women's blogs, I gather that no amount of socialization will make any woman born with a male body ever feel she is male, not even while she is growing up. So I think it's the reverse, Melissa. You transitioned because you were not socialized as a male.

Proof of this (but going the other way) is in the story of Joan/John. John had his penis removed as an infant, an accident resulting from a botched circumcision. It was decided to raise him as a girl. He had his testicles removed while still an infant and was later given estrogen. It didn't work. John always knew he was a boy and he reverted to being a boy when he was old enough to do so, at age 13.

[Rianna Humble]

I had to read Jorja's words several times before I thought that I understood them. I hope that my comments will not prove me to be mistaken.

Yes, we all have differing levels of Gender Dysphoria, but that doesn't mean that we don't have the same basic condition. In an epidemic of any malady, different people will have different levels of the infection. Often the cure will be apparently the same for everyone (e.g. antibiotics), but that does nt mean that the actual amounts will be the same.

At present the only known cure for Gender Identity Disorder is to make the body and the gender congruent (aka transition), but that does not mean that every person who has any degree of Gender Dysphoria will need or seek congruence. Some manage to sublimate the suffering (at least for a time), some may need counselling(therapy) but little else, still others may find that Hormone Therapy brings them sufficient relief from the dysphoria that they do not actually need to seek physical congruence.

So whilst it is true that the only known cure is transition, that is far from being the only treatment and is currently only recommended for those whose need is most severe. I still believe that transition is the least worst option for those of us who have run out of alternatives.

I'm glad that young people have a greater degree of openness about their feelings, sexuality and gender issues. It won't make the suffering of a transsexual any less real, but it may go some way towards mitigating the isolation.

[Kathryn Martin]

Did I transition because I was socialized to do so?

Seriously, you don't mess around in asking the really difficult questions. So instead of answering the question I will ask one in return: Would you prefer to be a gay male over being a woman?


You transitioned because you were not socialized as a male.

To answer your postulate given above you need to ask if transition can be motivated by the need to be accepted in who you are attracted to. What Misty said is: "I mentioned earlier that I may not have transitioned if I could have accepted myself as something in between or even gay, and of course I don't know that for sure but I can't help but be a little bit disenchanted with my apparent need to validate the damn gender binary. " Yet at the same time she talks about her profound comfort and contentment being in her role as a woman. What conclusions can we draw from that? And what is her conflict?

[Starling]

I think Misty's conflict is the dissonance of feeling happy while following a social norm she does not respect. And I personally think that's better than feeling awful while subverting it. This is a gross oversimplification, of course, especially when it comes from someone like me, who knows what will make her happy and doesn't do it.

:) Lallie

[Debglam]

Maybe.

I follow a couple of blogs of parents raising their gender variant children with their full love and support and kinda play the "what if" game. (More on this later.) I have to wonder what it would have been like to have expressed my gender discomfort to my parents and have had a positive response instead of a negative one. Would I be a transitioned woman now? Would I be right where I am? I don't know, but I DO know that the anchor I dragged around with me for most of my life wouldn't have existed. What would it have been like to have not felt like a "broken toy" for most of my life?

Anyway, you are happy now Melissa. It is one thing to look back every once in awhile but nothing is gained from "what if'ing" your past. You have made your choices, you are a pretty woman with a lot going for you! Onward and upward!

Debby

[Badtranny]

Would you prefer to be a gay male over being a woman?

The answer to that is "I wish!". I tried and hoped that just coming out and being open about my attraction to men would fix me. When it didn't I was literally scared straight for a few months.



I think Misty's conflict is the dissonance of feeling happy while following a social norm she does not respect. And I personally think that's better than feeling awful while subverting it.

Really excellent synopsis.



Anyway, you are happy now Melissa. It is one thing to look back every once in awhile but nothing is gained from "what if'ing" your past.

Indeed I am, but I really enjoy exploring this crazy condition. It is not enough to live, one must examine ones life, for the unexamined life is not worth living.

[Starling]

And the unlived life is not worth examining.

:) Lallie

[LeaP]

Maybe for me there really wasn't a choice and I did exactly what I was supposed to do, but what if I had been raised with accepting parents? Would I have been able to be happy as something else? My sexuality is obviously not up for discussion since I've been attracted to men for as long as I can remember, but I have a hard time believing my gender expression would be female today if I hadn't been taught that from the beginning.

Did I transition because I was socialized to do so?

There is no social change on the horizon that is going to result in cissexual men taking on male-bodied sexual partners for their primary relationships. There are some patterns one might cite in ancient history and other cultures, but there are significant differences from the types of relationships you seek (I think). So from an external perspective I don't see much in the way of other outcomes.

But you ask from an inner perspective. Whether you might have chosen to remain male-bodied if social conditions were different. Lallie's answer was excellent, but isn't another conclusion that, rather than things leading to acceptance of your male body, that normalcy of transition would have simply removed the conflict over the "social norm you do not respect" and eased the path?

As far as accepting parents and supportive atmospheres go, what of children who don't know what is going on? I shut down like a steel trap when I hit puberty. My parents dragged me around for years to several psychiatrists and psychologists. I would sit in the sessions and refuse to speak. No amount of acceptance is going to fix cases of deep suppression - and suppression comes from within. I absolutely believe it was hormonal in my case. One can't ignore socialization entirely, but then, I WAS raised in a very tolerant household.

It feels like your question reduces at some level to whether transsexuality is "real." Nature or nurture. Biology or behavior. Part of my struggle was figuring this out - because I could not accept a behavior or socialization origin as real when it came to identity - though it is, of course in its own sense. (While, by contrast, I can when it comes to certain elements of sexuality.) I arrived at the validation I needed through no intentional action of my own, though, that's for sure! Thank God, though, because the fundamental question would have continued to eat away at me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

just face it woman...you are a girl

[Kathryn Martin]

Socialization as a boy when imposed on a mtf transsexual can bring enormous inner conflict. In early childhood we tend to try and comply with our parents directive out of love for them. But it leads to turmoil that can express itself in many different ways, such as shyness, anxiety, fidgeting, a weak disposition. Carrying the facade of boy becomes a survival strategy while at the same time subverting our self. Imagine understanding that you are the cause of your own destruction because you try to survive. Self loathing does not even begin to describe it.

But socialization as a boy can also have a different flavor. I lived through the period where homosexuality went from a disease of the mind to being generally accepted (although homophobia is alive and well). My father is a quiet but raging homophobe. Casual commentary dropped at the dinner table throughout my childhood about homosexuals and "men" that love men was something that I and many experienced. He once told me that a friends son was homosexual and what incredible tragedy this was both for the boy and his parents. Living through a time where you defined yourself through the acceptance and admiration of your peers (keeping up with the Joneses) he would always see the disgrace and humiliation having a deviant child would bring. This placed enormous pressure on me not only from the self recognition of being a girl but also being sexually deviant in the eyes of my parents or either of those. So you shut up and bear it until you can no more.


This is what I believe Misty is talking about. She was socialized in a way that did not allow any room for the "lessening" of her as a male occasioned by her homosexuality. If you are a very feminine homosexual man the door you have to walk through becomes obvious. From her recent comments I take that if the door had been open to live a life as a gay male it would have been preferable. In order to be accepted as person that loves men her door was transition. I think she said as much.

The question is whether the result is that you are transsexual. If you go back to what I asked where the conflict is (because this is essential question is it not) you have to ask yourself if there is a gender/sex conflict or if there is a gender/gender conflict.

[morgan51]

This discussion is so validating to me and my path I have thourghly enjoyed each post and savored all replys so far Thanks Melissa for a great post! I find me in most of it ,the hatred of the binary yet the satisfaction of finally becomming myself, reveling in my journey and looking foward to completion ,this really confirms I'm on the right path. I need that from time to time self doubt, fear ,overthinking all conspire to derail me at times.

[Lorileah]

I just saw this after i posted..i thought michelles post was excellent...summing it up..


We (ie: trans folks) ardently maintain that gender identity and sexual orientation are distinct and wholly unrelated, and by now the cisgender world is starting to buy into that. YET, at times there are sexual aspects of our gender expression and also some aspects of our sexual orientation that promote and reinforce the gender binary and these things are are not necessarily conflated, but the lines do seem to cross each other.... (see the post for full text

I could not agree more. Yes I realize that sometimes certain people tend to say "if you ain't this you ain't one of us". But I have to agree that what we have physically does not make us less female, TS, womanly, whatever... Michelle, that was a perfect answer thank you

[kellycan27]

I am pretty sure that my parents would have preferred that I'd been gay rather than transsexual. I might not have fit the gender binary, but it would have been a lot easier to explain. LOL

[Aprilrain]

I'm pretty sure my dad doesn't see trans any differently than he sees gay.

[Debglam]

I am pretty sure that my parents would have preferred that I'd been gay rather than transsexual. I might not have fit the gender binary, but it would have been a lot easier to explain. LOL


I'm pretty sure my dad doesn't see trans any differently than he sees gay.

And my mom. . . :-(

[Starling]

My parents knew something, because I remember going to an endocrinologist as a kid of 11 or 12. (I guess I hadn't been quite as clever as I thought in covering my dressing tracks.) God knows what they thought, but what they had was a boy who felt like a girl. Fortunately, they didn't find anything strange in my workup, or I might still be in the loony bin.

Those were the days!

:) Lallie

[EmilyLynn28]

I've tried being gay but that didn't work for me. I am attracted to men, but only as a female. I believe being a transsexual woman is the route for me.

[Badtranny]

I've tried being gay but that didn't work for me. I am attracted to men, but only as a female. I believe being a transsexual woman is the route for me.

Hi Emily, please clarify this because I started this thread to talk about some of the deeper questions some of us face about our sexuality as it relates to our transitions. We don't pretend that wearing panties changes our sexuality over here so please elaborate before you get flamed by some ticked off trannies. ;-)

[EmilyLynn28]

Melissa, I'm very new to sharing my thoughts about all this so maybe I'm not fully understanding the question. Maybe I'm too new to jump into this discussion.

Wearing panties did not change my sexuality. I've always had feelings of being a woman and had feelings for men, but knew my parents wouldn't go for it. So I did the "manly" thing and got married. I've had gay relationships as well, but they didn't feel right to me as a man.

[Nicole Erin]

I thought it might be a nice change ;-)

I've been thinking a lot lately about how the younger folks relate to gender issues and sexuality. Maybe it's because I'll be turning 45 later this month but I'm inspired by the TS people who are 20 years behind me.


The reason you are inspired is cause we are a youth oriented society. Youth is beauty, regardless of gender or lifestyle.
Younger TS are usually sexy (provided they look like they take care of themselves). I mean for a young TS, of course they are gonna look perfect cause aging has not set in. Worry not, one day they too will be middle age women who are envious of the next generation of young pretty TS.

Transition cause one is conditioned to? probably not. by age (I would say) 35, one decides to live for themselves. That is why there are many older transitioners, people who get divorced cause they are tired of their spouses crap, etc...

By 45 or whatever, NO ONE should be telling you how to live.

[kellycan27]

The reason you are inspired is cause we are a youth oriented society. Youth is beauty, regardless of gender or lifestyle.
Younger TS are usually sexy (provided they look like they take care of themselves). I mean for a young TS, of course they are gonna look perfect cause aging has not set in. Worry not, one day they too will be middle age women who are envious of the next generation of young pretty TS.

Transition cause one is conditioned to? probably not. by age (I would say) 35, one decides to live for themselves. That is why there are many older transitioners, people who get divorced cause they are tired of their spouses crap, etc...

By 45 or whatever, NO ONE should be telling you how to live.

I don't think it was a question of someone telling her how to live at age 45, but rather how she had been conditioned or "socialized" while she was growing up. 20 years ago even being young and pretty probably wouldn't have trumped the stigma of being homosexual or trans.... Attitudes were a lot different in terms of being "different" than they are today. I also don't think that her being inspired by the younger girls because of their looks but more because of the freedom that they have to express themselves and their sexuality.

[Kathryn Martin]

I don't think it was a question of someone telling her how to live at age 45, but rather how she had been conditioned or "socialized" while she was growing up. 20 years ago even being young and pretty probably wouldn't have trumped the stigma of being homosexual or trans.... Attitudes were a lot different in terms of being "different" than they are today. I also don't think that her being inspired by the younger girls because of their looks but more because of the freedom that they have to express themselves and their sexuality.

What you said Kelly is exactly the point. Socialization is subtle and begins from the first self conscious moment. Growing up in the 50's 60's and early 70's attitudes were very different.



I've tried being gay but that didn't work for me. I am attracted to men, but only as a female. I believe being a transsexual woman is the route for me.

wow, talk about socialization! Attracted to men only as a female? Can you describe what a "transsexual women is the route" is? Honey, it's not route, it's a condition. You think "being a transsexual woman" is a lifestyle choice.

[EmilyLynn28]

What you said Kelly is exactly the point. Socialization is subtle and begins from the first self conscious moment. Growing up in the 50's 60's and early 70's attitudes were very different.




wow, talk about socialization! Attracted to men only as a female? Can you describe what a "transsexual women is the route" is? Honey, it's not route, it's a condition. You think "being a transsexual woman" is a lifestyle choice.

It's not necessary to attack me!

I am new to expressing my feelings around this and am sorting through many different things. And I don't think it's a lifestyle choice! I have felt it in me for many years and have suppressed it trying to conform to society.

[Pamela Kay]

Emily,

I don't think it was anyone's intent to attack you. This is just a pretty direct and no nonsense group and that's one of the things I've always liked about them.

I haven't been dealing with this as long as many others here have but there are a few things I've found through this journey. One, while there are many similar stories and experiences among our ranks there are no two that are exactly the same. We are all individuals with different socialization, life experience, and views so how we deal with our gender, orientation, or any other aspects of who we are will be our own. I experienced the dual person situation when I began transition that you have described. I've had people tell me that Pam is way more fun than he was but as Misty and others have said this is a total re-examination of your entire life and who you are and I totally identify with that. Some things may change and some may not, it's rediscovering yourself and who you are and not the person you created or presented to fit in. There may even come a time when you mourn the loss of him or her depending on what you find. I experienced this myself over the holidays.

I read others comments about orientation sometimes and wonder how they can be so open with accepting that someone can be confused or have hidden their true gender for a large part or most of their lives yet can't accept that someone may have those same issues with their orientation. Many of us built up a dam so high to hold back those feelings that we wouldn't even consider it to be a possibility that those feelings were even something that could be tolerated, let alone accepted. So when the dam begins to crumble and finally falls our gender issues aren't all that comes through. You get it all and have to deal with it in the order that is the most desperate. Some may have been able to deal with the gender and some with the orientation first but eventually it all keeps coming at you and you have to deal with it or drown.

I am dealing with the orientation question myself and so are some of my other transwomen friends. I'm pushing 50 years old and have been on hormones for a year this coming week. A friend is in her mid sixties and questioning the same things about her own orientation. So I don't think having questions about our orientation at some time during transition is as out of the ordinary as some might believe.

[kristyk]

My parents were so into pushing the sports world into my life when I was little, that they totally didn't pay attention when I was next door playing dolls with the neighbor girls. To me that says parents had zero clue that people like us existed back 40 years ago. I turned 50 in May and I agree with Kelly my parents could of handled me being gay better than me being trans.
Kristy

[Pink Person]

Are social constructions built from the top down or from the bottom up?

Have you socialized yourself as a woman according to external imperatives or individualized yourself as a woman according to your internal design that is similar to many other people who are substantially just like you?

Many aspects of social being and behavior are built from the bottom up. With respect to feminine constructions, it can most often be fairly said that the women on the ground built themselves up into a group that can be identified and described in general terms by formal and functional stereotypes because they independently created or adopted them for themselves.

In other words, don't worry about surrendering to (feminine) social constructions that are built from the bottom up. It just means that you are a grounded woman, like a lot of other grounded women.

I also wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to imagine how your life could have been differently better. It's a moot exercise. Move forward in a way that will make your life better for the person who you are.

[Breanna Jaqueline]

What you said Kelly is exactly the point. Socialization is subtle and begins from the first self conscious moment. Growing up in the 50's 60's and early 70's attitudes were very different.




wow, talk about socialization! Attracted to men only as a female? Can you describe what a "transsexual women is the route" is? Honey, it's not route, it's a condition. You think "being a transsexual woman" is a lifestyle choice.

Ugh, My first draft got erased! Here's the condensed version.

Wasn't this what Melissa was saying, not being attracted to men as a man, and finally being comfortable after transition?
No doubt socialization has a big part of it, but Identity has to be huge as well, if you aren't accepting of yourself, your gender role, how people see and relate to you, it has got to play a huge part in your acceptance of a yourself in a relationship.

[Badtranny]

Wasn't this what Melissa was saying, not being attracted to men as a man, and finally being comfortable after transition?

No not quite. I was always attracted to men, I just wasn't attracted to GAY men. That's an important distinction because I wasn't able to make it until I finally began living as openly gay.

Oh, I should add that it has nothing to do with how they LOOKED. Straight men aren't better looking than gay men, (just the opposite mostly) it was just a sort of dissonance that I felt because I knew they liked men exclusively. I guess I didn't like being one of them. For some reason I thought that coming out to the world would distance me from masculinity but it seemed to have no effect at all. In fact the gay community is the most exclusive boys club there is or could be. I never felt like I fit in and to be honest, the men weren't exactly beating down my door.

The experience of being an openly gay man is what finally brought my gender problem into the open. Remember I've said many times that I thought that all gay guys wanted to be girls when I was growing up so I just assumed that I was gay because of that. Long before I had homosexual feelings, I thought I was gay because I wanted to be a girl, and in my 9 year old wisdom, that was that. The problem was I never explored the possibilities because I was determined to NOT be gay, which just meant that I spent my beautiful years as a pathetic closet queen blowing other pathetic closet queens in parks and porn shops.

If I had never come out, then I would have never been able to understand my true nature.

The question in my OP is about coming out as a child. I clearly had feelings of wanting to be a girl, so if I had come out then would I have come to the same conclusion or could I have been happy as a gay guy. What if I had never been taught that being gay was wrong? What if I had never been called a sissy or a fag and was encouraged to be myself? Obviously I would never have embraced masculinity, but maybe I would have been okay as a feminine man.

[Starling]

Melissa:

1. You have many "beautiful years" ahead of you.

2. If you had come out as a girl when you were still a child, you might have been terribly abused by the medical establishment.

3. If you had come out as a gay male, you would still have wanted straight men.

4. You did the right thing, for someone growing up before The Enlightenment.

:) Lallie

[ReineD]

What if I had never been taught that being gay was wrong? What if I had never been called a sissy or a fag and was encouraged to be myself? Obviously I would never have embraced masculinity, but maybe I would have been okay as a feminine man.

If you had never been taught that being gay was wrong, you still would not have felt comfortable with same-sex attraction, since your sex and the gender role assigned to you because of your sex, did not match your gender identity. You would not have enjoyed being the object of attraction of a man who would only have been attracted to you because he thought you were a gay man.

I perfectly understand what you are saying. It's also a turn-off for me to have sex with someone whom I feel does not see me or love me for who I am.

[LisaMallon]

OMG Melissa. Sometimes you can second, Third, fourth, fifth over guess yourself.

You did it because you had to do it. The alternative was a 'compromise' or death. Now there are many compromises that many people make, to survive, to 'get by', to 'pay the bills', in some countries to avoid being killed.
Those are very personal to the people involved, with a vast amount of variation.But some rough trends are clear.

Those who came up through the Gay community have a tendency to do the 'Drag Queen' thing, at least for awhile. Oh many are true transexuals, but their expressions and their path they follow is different to the 'standard (if it exists, except in fantasies) 'Straight' path. That is 'socialisation' to a degree, plus following that path means they maintain support within the community.
In that they are often, in some ways, better off than the 'straight' TS's.

The 'straight' ones in many ways have the hardest journey. It is common (but not always) for those to change their sexual orientation as they move through the process. But this is another emotional load on them. Bad enough to admit, as an original 'straight' guy ... that you want to change sex. Even harder to admit that you fancy having sex with a male as well. Hence the 'standard' CD/TG/TS fantasy of 'being forced' to have sex with males by some domineering male/female.

Rubbish all of it. And a classic example of lack of self honesty. If you are going to change sex the odds are you will be attracted to males at some stage. Yes there is a minority, and I know some people like that, you will become 'lesbian' (in a sense) and stay attracted to females.

The TS's who come up through the Gay community have it easier in a sense, in that their sexuality starts with males and stays there (usually). But, as the old story goes 'there is no free lunch;', they carry their own baggage as well and that support and acceptance can become a prison as well.

Sorry love, you were a TS (now you are a woman). Not a 'gay guy' looking for a root, but couldn't get one except by dressing as a female.

Simple test ... where are your 2" false eyelashes :battingeyelashes:

[ColleenA]

... your sex and the gender role assigned to you because of your sex, did not match your gender identity. You would not have enjoyed being the object of attraction of a man who would only have been attracted to you because he thought you were a gay man.

There is an important distinction between what you desire in a partner (the other) and how you want to be desired (the self). Unfortunately, people in general don't make such a distinction, which is why so much of the public at large will readily label someone who doesn't fit the hetero "norm" as gay (or fag or queer) -- even well-intentioned persons will often assume the person is homosexual.

I remember when the movie "Ma Vie En Rose" came out 15 years ago, the reviewer in my local paper didn't understand the difference and in summarizing said the movie was a good depiction of some of the difficulties of growing up gay. And this was in the SF Bay Area!