IS it just me or are their more MTF than FTM

[SAMANN]

Hey all,
As I begin to explore myself more I have noticed that it APPEARS there are more of us that are MTF than FTM. I am wondering if this is your perception as well? If this is true I am wondering if that is because women have so many options in clothing, along with it being acceptable for a women to wear mens clothes (even suits). Women have jeans and t-shirts designed for their bodies yet they can go into the men's section and buy clothes and their appears to be no notice. Both my wife and my daughter have men's jeans and t-shirts heck my daughter doesn't even wear panties any more she wears boxers.

Yet when we go to buy womens clothes for us their is a hugh stigma attached to it. We are considered at best weird or at worst perverts. Is this just an example of societies lack of eguality or is there something more to it than that. Is the perception that when we do this it is for a sexual reason only.

Just a thought that crossed the grey matter and stuck to something (not sure what it stuck to).

[Maria S]

Hi Samann

It does seem there are more MTF than FTM. I am no medical person but is it not we all start female in our mothers womb and the male aspect comes later. I've always put it down partly to that.

Over say the last 100 years mens fashions have not changed much suit, tie, shirt etc but women's fashion has changed many times and grown enormously. Mens clothes are boring and out of date. Womens clothes you are spoilt for choice. After years of crossdressing I still have not developed a style as there is too much to choose from.

As you say women go round in manly clothes and no one gives a monkies. The other way round and it's shock and horror.

One thing I ask myself "If it were the norm for men to wear feminine clothes would it still be as enjoyable as mentally it would just be an every day occourance and nothing more thought about it?"

Maria

[sandra-leigh]

No-one really knows. The estimates range from between 6:1 MTF v FTM, to slightly more FTM (about 54%) than MTF. The closer ratios tend to be for surgery. One interpretation that has been suggested is that there might perhaps be fewer FTM, but that individual FTM are more likely to go through to surgery. But completely different interpretations are plausible as well.

The clinic I have been going to, has many more FTM than I would expect based upon "talk" here and "around". And when I go to our local TDOR (Transgender Day Of Remembrance) ceremonies, I usually see more FTM than MTF. FTM are out there for sure, but I do not happen to observe them "around" or else I do not identify them as being such or else I'm sufficiently unsure that they don't register like MTF do.

[Laura912]

Ironically the newspaper headline two days ago, was about a FtM at a local women's college who would like to continue at the college. My "sense" is that the MtF are certainly more obvious.

[Tibby]

Hi Samann

I am no medical person but is it not we all start female in our mothers womb and the male aspect comes later. I've always put it down partly to that.





Maria

You are correct in a way. After conception until the first 8 weeks (approx) the fetus is referred to as a zygote. At this point the genetic information will determine the gender of the baby, however the sexual organs develop as female. After the 8 week point the baby will get a boost of testosterone if it is programmed to be male and the female reproductive organs will form into what produces male reproductive organs, ovaries move down to form testes etc. So yes physically all appear female for a period of development but genetically different.

And so endeth the lecture :)

[Wildaboutheels]

It's really quite simple Samann. The vast majority of men are VISUAL creatures and are for the most part slaves to their vision by tens of thousands of years of EVOLUTIONARY design. And it works great in that it enables men to "get it up" and be ready to impregnate any female that he finds attractive for ANY reason. Boobs, a$$, legs, eyes, shouders, feet, elbows... ANY female body part can/might work. Women's brains simply don't work this way for their own protection.

This ^^^^^^ is THE reason that females have such a diversity of clothing syles, colors, fabrics, wear makeup, use padding, corsets, get their hair and nails done professionally and generally spend SO much time, money and effort on their OUTWARD appearance. They go to all that time and trouble because they MUST. IF they want to/need to compete for a man with other females. Once they have a guy, all their time and effort in their appearance is likely to drop at least some, if not dramatically. All those "appearance" options at their disposal simply offer them a better chance of being "attractive" if they are sharp enough to make good choices with all those options.

A woman's VISION is much less important to her in mate selection than a man's. The WHY men don't need to be so serious about their OWN outward appearance. WHY men don't have anywhere close to all the clothing options/choices that women have. And WHY they don't/won't spend so much energy on their own appearance. They simply don't NEED to, to compete for women the same way women do.

I don't think it's possible to really get a good grasp of what the ratio might be of MtF versus FtM. I'd bet a weeks pay that it is at least 10:1 if not far higher.

[CassandraSmith]

Totally an opinion here with no facts or even common sense whatsoever but here goes...

We have both male/female genetic material (XY). They only have the feminine side times two (XX). I think they have less confusion generally about their gender identity. Plus, being a tomboy has always been totally accepted in society so there's really no stigma if a women goes around in jeans and work boots unless she starts hitting on other women. Even then, no one seems to get as concerned as when it's about men.

I just wish men had the same freedom of expression that women do in society. But since they don't, I'm here to for the support group in addition to all the other perks.

Cassy

[kimdl93]

It is just you! Just kidding...I've always wanted to respond that ways to questions that start with 'is it just me...'

Really you can't equate what your wives or daughters wear with cross dressing. This has been addressed often, but to reiterate, women don't associate clothes with gender expression and so they aren't cross dressing when they wear jeans. Men who cross dress do so for reasons other than comfort and convenience, although the motivations can vary from sexual fetish to gender expression.

I hesitate to speak for FtM because I am not one of them, but those that I know dress as men because they are men inside.

[Tibby]

To be totally honest I see the choice of clothes for men and it's downright boring, women have a massive range of textures, colours, styles and they are designed to make you feel sexy and attractive. Men's clothes are so dowdy. Even when it comes to jeans, womens jeans have so many varieties of styles and cuts and some look great with heels, hell most things look great with heels. It is also viewed as sexy for a woman to wear mens clothes as they are oversized and make them appear smaller than they are, it is meant to give that protective feel for them. Far too often society seems to believe that if a man dresses as a women then they are also homosexual, yet a woman in mans clothing is acceptable and may be a phase they are going through like being a tomboy. Both views are wrong but sadly it's one of those concepts whch may be difficult to crack.

and totally off topic I know but CassandraSmith if that is you in your profile pic I am so jealous of you, totally amazing legs and good grief what i wouldn't give to have a figure like that.

[Lorileah]

Maybe there are more MtF but knowing how science and biology works, if there was a way to quantify it I bet it would be really close. It is because the MtFs do have a larger stigma, the fact that women are not driven as much as men about certain "appearance" things and I also believe that women work toward being happy with who they are and not so much about who they want the world to think they are or see them.

[Michelle.M]

As I begin to explore myself more I have noticed that it APPEARS there are more of us that are MTF than FTM. I am wondering if this is your perception as well?

Some analyses estimate that the ratio of MtF transsexuals to FtM may be as high as 4 to 1 (80%).


If this is true I am wondering if that is because women have so many options in clothing, along with it being acceptable for a women to wear mens clothes (even suits).

Yeah, it's all about the clothes. Forget all of that nonsense about gender dysphoria, HRT, years of therapy, outright ostracism and treatment as a second class citizen in a misogynistic society. As long as we can look pretty we're in.

[Eryn]

I'm going to be less clinical and state that there is a greater stigma for a male to act in a female fashion than there is for a female to act in a male fashion so many TG females can accommodate their needs within mainstream society.

If a female wants to wear conservative clothing in muted colors she is still within the realm of her gender. "Tomboy" is a socially acceptable trait for a female and males will readily accept a tomboy into their midst. If a male wants to wear pretty colors and patterns in creative styles he is definitely out of his gender's realm, except for extremely limited situations like resort wear. A "sissy" isn't at all socially acceptable and such a male would be rejected by females except in very defined fields like fashion, beauty, or entertainment.

This covers the majority of the TG spectrum. The far ends of the spectrum are occupied by individuals who have a strong internal need to be functionally the opposite gender. This functionality is more easily realized by MTF individuals than FTM individuals, leading to a greater number of MTF individuals taking that step. The greater aggressiveness and risk-taking tendency of males might also lead to more of them actually moving toward the goal of being the opposite gender.

[SAMANN]

Thank you Michelle for reminding me that it is not all about the clothes. Women have for centuries been considered as second class citizens if not outright property. It has only really been the last 100 years that women have become equal. At least as far as society is concerned personally I think the only thing a man has over a woman is strength and endurance on a case by case basis.

[Angela Campbell]

I think one of the reasons that MTF are more ostrasized in our society may be from the attitude that men are strong and women are not. Therefore a man who is wanting to appear weak or being weak, is a bad thing. It is something that is stressed into boys from an early age. Never be weak, be a man, be tough! A female is excused for being weak, even admired for it by some. A male is taught to be strong in both physical strength and stamina, and in emotions. Don't be a crybaby!

Then again a female who is strong is often admired, or at least not looked down upon. If a girl can run fast, climb a tree, play sports, then it is ok. A man who cannot is less of a person.

So if a male is attempting to look or even worse, act like a female, then he is seen by other males as less than a man and therefore unnaceptable.

There is also a big image of this being purely sexual. In part it is. Not for everyone, but for many men crossdressing is highly sexual, as many things tend to be for a person who is full of testosterone. So therefore thought of as a perversion by many.

I guess this is just something we have to live with.

[ReineD]

If this is true I am wondering if that is because women have so many options in clothing,

If I recall, in terms of transsexuals (people seeking treatment for gender dysphoria) the rate might be 3:2, MtF:FtM. But, there are few TSs in the overall trans/CD community. In this forum alone, you can see very few people actually transitioning vs. those who are not and I believe this is one of the larger forum for TSs. I also wonder if there are fewer FtM TSs than MtF, because penectomies are nowhere near as well developed as vaginoplasties.

On the other hand, CDers are overwhelmingly MtF (virtually no FtMs) and I think this is because men have testosterone. Cross-gender expression is generally not sexual for birth females, and it generally starts out that way for men. And so men sort of rewire their brains with all those released endorphins? :)



To be totally honest I see the choice of clothes for men and it's downright boring, women have a massive range of textures, colours, styles and they are designed to make you feel sexy and attractive. Men's clothes are so dowdy.

You say this because you are a crossdresser. :) You are attracted to women's clothes and perhaps you are also attracted to presenting as a woman!

Men who do not have this tendency, do not find men's clothing boring, if they are into clothes to begin with. If a guy wants to dress well, he can get into the more expensive suit & shirt fabrics, designs and colors, impeccable tailoring, cashmere sweaters, finely woven wool sweaters and scarves, silk pyjamas & shorts, silk shirts, silk ties, Italian leather shoes and briefcases, expensive watches. There are several high end clothiers for men who do not lack in business.

A friend on facebook posted a link to a men's fashion gathering in Italy right now and if I find it, I'll come back and post the link.

EDIT - Here it is! There are 46 slides to go through: http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/style/articles/2013-01/10/pitti-uomo-street-style-florence-menswear

[PretzelGirl]

Reine, I believe Tibby is married to a crossdresser. So she would be a female who believes men's clothing is boring.

[Kate Simmons]

Basically, most women are just who they are and it's no big deal. As men we tend to feel we have to prove something both to ourselves and others. I've learned to use the Beatles' philosophy to just "Let it be". :)

[Annaliese2010]

As I begin to explore myself more I have noticed that it APPEARS there are more of us that are MTF than FTM. I am wondering if this is your perception as well?

Yea...we Rule! :battingeyelashes:

[ReineD]

To Tibby
You say this because you are a crossdresser. :) You are attracted to women's clothes and perhaps you are also attracted to presenting as a woman!


Reine, I believe Tibby is married to a crossdresser. So she would be a female who believes men's clothing is boring.


Oops, sorry Tibby. You don't have "GG" under your name, nor do you have an avatar, and I had not checked your profile before responding. You said very similar things that many of the CDers say here, so I assumed you were a CDer as well. :p Thanks for the head's up, Sue.

[Tibby]

You say this because you are a crossdresser. :) You are attracted to women's clothes and perhaps you are also attracted to presenting as a woman!

Men who do not have this tendency, do not find men's clothing boring, if they are into clothes to begin with. If a guy wants to dress well, he can get into the more expensive suit & shirt fabrics, designs and colors, impeccable tailoring, cashmere sweaters, finely woven wool sweaters and scarves, silk pyjamas & shorts, silk shirts, silk ties, Italian leather shoes and briefcases, expensive watches. There are several high end clothiers for men who do not lack in business.

A friend on facebook posted a link to a men's fashion gathering in Italy right now and if I find it, I'll come back and post the link.

EDIT - Here it is! There are 46 slides to go through: http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/style/articles/2013-01/10/pitti-uomo-street-style-florence-menswear


Firstly Thank you Sue :) Reine as Sue pointed out I'm married to a crossdresser however I have to say thank you for making the mistake as it just goes to show that it's hard to tell us genetic girls apart from the CD's here ;) I have to say though that after looking through the 46 slides and everytime I made a response of "yuck", "boring", "that coat does not go with that suit" and qute often "my god did he dress in the dark" simply enforces my view that mens fashion is indeed boring and dowdy, one or two brighter colours in there but nothng which could ever be called pretty and certainly not sexy. It was mainly browns, greys and blacks. And this recent fashion style of guys wearing their trousers halfway down their legs, I'm sorry but all I have the urge to do is pull their trousers up and give them a lecture about getting dressed properly.

[ReineD]

Well, admittedly Italian men are a bit further ahead when it comes to styles than American men. :p Some of the styles even seemed flamboyant to me, but then some of the Italian runway styles for women seem flamboyant too. I guess I need to get out of my small-town in the US midwest more often. :p

Still, my point was there is nice clothing for men too, if they want to go in that direction.

[docrobbysherry]

No one's mentioned another, (what I believe is a), prime motivating factor. Sexual stimulation!

How many CD/TG/TS MtF have been aroused at one time or another by dressing? Maybe 90+%?

How many FtM get aroused by their male clothing? I'm betting 10% or less!

[Beverley Sims]

I think there is more stimulation for men to cross over than there is for women.

[Eryn]

Well, admittedly Italian men are a bit further ahead when it comes to styles than American men. :p Some of the styles even seemed flamboyant to me, but then some of the Italian runway styles for women seem flamboyant too. I guess I need to get out of my small-town in the US midwest more often. :p

Still, my point was there is nice clothing for men too, if they want to go in that direction.

You won't see those styles in small town (or big city) Italy, either. Those pictures were of men attending a fashion show, a situation were they can get away with quite a lot more they normally would.

[Dana L]

Let's face it there isn't a whole lot of appeal to being a man. It's kind of like comparing a tractor to a corvette. The tractor is rough and tough, gets dirty, but gets the work done. But the vette is a slick ride around town that everyone oooohs and aaaaahs over.

[bumblebee]

MTF are just easier to spot. Due to the way gender is, and the imbalance of clothing, it's more evident for a physical male to cross the gender boundary than it is for a physical female. If you seek to wear a dress, or whatever, you're breaking a rule. Due to the fact that, in our society, it's seen as bad to be feminine (especially if you're giving the keys to the masculine role).

I know a ton of females who only wear mens clothes. Do they identify as male? Some do and some just don't care. They can blend in a lot easier. It's quite evident in a lot of fandoms online.

[JadeEmber]

Yeah, this is a good question. One data point is from a Dutch clinic. They reported that 3:2 MtF/FtM sought treatment, but 1:1 went through the final steps.

There is a lack of parity, of course. I have several female friends who never wear skirts, pantyhose, blouses, dresses -- only flannel shirts, male-pattern T-shirts, and jeans. No one really comments on it at least within that kind of workplace; I know other places would comment on it.

In terms of fiction, it comes up though. Boys Don't Cry, for example.

But I suspect that there are more in some sense, since I suspect fetish-based CD'ing isn't at common. Although maybe there's more "practical crossdressing" with women, but no one really considers that CD'ing.

Would be good to know in terms of understanding the different groups and motivations.

[sometimes_miss]

I think it's mainly because sexually, men think about it all the time, so if we identify as female, if we want to have sex as a female, we need to BE female (in appearance if not in physical state). Women don't have the testosterone to cause all that sexual tension as much, so it's not that big of a deal; they are allowed to do most male activities and behaviors, so that it's not the suppressive feeling that we go through so much. Same with the clothes; a woman can wear loose jeans and a man's flannel shirt, work boots, etc and no one cares. We don't have the reverse option. I do know one gay woman who expressed that while it would have been nice to have been born a male, it really wasn't that important; seems that a penis (no matter what size) isn't the be all and end all to sexual satisfaction for women that the vast majority of men seem to think it is.

[SAMANN]

Wow the response to this post has been very interesting and educational. I am still (40 some years into this) still trying to understand what draws me to womens clothing. Yrs at first it was a sexual thing but that hasn't been the case for many years now. I currently have to take testosterone to have any kind of sexual drive. The research I have done does not definitively show a biological correlation between normal male and CD. (sorry my inner nurse is showing her stuff). So it must be something else wish I knew what tha was.

[April_Ligeia]

I think you answered your own question. Any woman could wear any of my male clothes without a second look, so women can actually crossdres without it being called ftm crossdressing. I bet if you looked at the number of women wearing men's clothes, it would change the statistics.

[Annaliese]

It is just easier to blend in for FTM than MTF that is what it looks like to me

[Foxglove]

I think one of the reasons that MTF are more ostrasized in our society may be from the attitude that men are strong and women are not. Therefore a man who is wanting to appear weak or being weak, is a bad thing.

I always wonder if it's actually true that we're more ostracized than the FTM's. I have some contact with a few of them, and they don't necessarily gain much acceptance from those they know. Things can be very hard for them in ways. I think we need to get more testimony from them before we make up our minds on this issue.

Annabelle

[Frédérique]

IS it just me or are their more MTF than FTM

Question mark... If you look at the numbers on this site, you can (may) reach a conclusion that agrees with your statement. I don’t know how it is OUT THERE, so I can’t comment…:straightface:


If this is true I am wondering if that is because women have so many options in clothing, along with it being acceptable for a women to wear mens clothes (even suits). Is the perception that when we do this it is for a sexual reason only.

Don’t confuse ACTUAL male clothing with female clothing that is based on male prototypes. The latter may be tailored specifically for women, thus making them 100% female garments. Also, don’t you suppose that FtM crossdressers also crossdress for sexual reasons now and then? You can’t really generalize about such things, especially around here, IMHO…

[noeleena]

Hi,

Lets define crossdressing as against wearing womens clothes, or clothes that are manly for women .

The womens clothes in the main dont fit men unless your body is the same shape as a woman & most men are not , we have breasts & a vigina our body shape for many around the hip's are different & so on, so when you line us up against men theres a few difference's.

So ball gowns that fit me will not look right on a male unless your 11 stone = 154 lbs height 5 ,9. bust is 41 in's . waistline is 35 in's. hip's are 39 in's .

What im trying to do is so you see even if a male stands next to me our shapes will be different im a woman , the male wont have breast's & the same figger .

As in how a male & woman should look like ,

So the crossdresser will wont to have forms to make it look like he has breasts he will tuck to hide his ummm what's its to appear he dont have a whats' it . a corssit to pull his tummy in to appear to have the hourglass look. need i go on you get the idear,

Now if this male just put on the ballgown no forms or tucking or corssit no makeup no jewery or painted nails & you know the rest would he be a crossdresser then or just be himself as a male,with out trying to be or look like a woman, i know 3 who do that,

Now as you all know im a Renaissance member our men dress in dress's long ones some with skirts & tops 100 in fact not one of them is trying or wonting to be women they are normal males strong yet all male , & every thing about them SAY's male.....

(( mind you they most do look quite lovely in thier garb )) all colours & look pretty ......good .

so will or would you say they are dresser's in the context we are talking about of cause not ....why,,,, what's the difference they are men in normal 1400 to 1700 garb = clothes,

they are not dresser's, the garb is made for men. not women or for women .

As a woman like my female / women friends we make our own clothes to fit us not men.

Okay , western socity has for money & fashon got people to change thier thinking over the last 100 or so years, to make mens & womens clothes different ,

& to change attitudses to its not the clothes we wear its the men trying to emulat us women, in looks manirisms & so on,

I dought very much & i know you men would & will not just stop at the wearing of clothes will you. no , you wont to take it further if not all the way to for some to live as a woman all the time,

so to be a real woman & i know most wont or even give it a thought let alone have the desire or what makes us who are women have & give birth to in my case my baby,
to explain

For many females its in us to at all cost to have our own baby to bond with , though for me its far deeper than what im trying to say i just dont have the words to express my inner most emotional feelings on this matter, to me its a lose i can never have,

The responsabilty of being a woman is far more than just the clothes, it is to me & from birth,

...noeleena...

[sometimes_miss]

Don't confuse ACTUAL male clothing with female clothing that is based on male prototypes.
Thing is, some of it is indistinguisable from genuine male clothing. Lots of work clothes which would, 40 years ago, have been completely reserved for males, are now quite normally worn by women, while the reverse is not true at all. If you go to women's clothing departments, you can find lots of things that a guy could wear without batting an eye. Sweats, flannels, jeans, sneakers, shoes, hats, if I were five foot five I could easily shop in the woman's departments and no one would ever know. Sure, the occasional item has a 'tell' like having the zipper on the opposite side, but otherwise the clothes are identical. BTW, my ex wife bought men's stuff like the above for casual wear and for knocking around the house all the time, and thought nothing of it at all.