Make up counter ladies, Cross your legs!

[Kerigirl2009]

So I have a friend that is a make up artist at some of the larger apartment stores, she has been doing this for years. she has NO IDEA that I am transgendered, so we where chatting via facebook and I teased her that I was going to come visit her at her work some day. This started her joking around about the guys that come in and get makeovers.

I asked her pretty straight forward questions and what i learned is that the women she works with DO NOT LIKE working on crossdressers, Her opinion was that they are gross and ugly and will never be good looking women.

THIS HURT INSIDE, and really discourages me but it wont make me quit. I wanted to tell her that I too would totally do this but that would not really turn out to well for me so I didnt.

So I guess the secret to getting a makeover from the makeup lady means you have to find a GG who is totally real. Otherwise its an illusion we say to ourselves to keep our confidence up. She did day that most of the crossdressers that do come in are very proud of who they are, but she still thinks we are gross and wierd but will always take our money.

Sorry to be such a downer. I never really thought she would be one to share this side of me. And now atleast I know.

She said the worst thing about a crossdresser is they usually sit like a man in the chair with their legs apart whie wearing a dress, her quote was " if you want to look like a lady, you need to act like a lady too" otherwise it is just gross"
So ladies, cross your legs when you get a makeover. The women will be more accepting, they may not like us personally but they will be more comfortable when they take our money.

[Sallee]

Interesting, You kind of popped my bubble. Although I have never had a make over at a dept store counter I always thought it would be fun. I do understand that our money spends well. I think the Mac stores maybe better at least at humoring us and that counts for something. Most of us can't fool to many people if they really look at us and a make up artist will certainly look close. I guess we just have to grin and bear it

[ArleneRaquel]

Kerigirl,
I am feeling very low after reading what your friend told you. Knowing that your makeup artist is laughing and ridiculing behind one's back is depressing.

[Kerigirl2009]

Sorry to be the downer on this. I know that I dont pass, but I think I can blend well. I am not under the illusion that we are well liked, but that is only becausse they dont know us, simply because we always hide to save our own embarrassment. For me, I will still one day go out and have a makeover, but first I will be picky about who does it.
Sorry ladies. Keep your chin up, chests out and cross your legs. we will go on.

[Heelsnlegs]

Reality bites, but the more feed back we get maybe we can do a better job at presenting ourselves to gain public acceptance. I too am discouraged by the looks I get sometimes, like if I was some kind of circus freak, but then find when I'm on, people, ( mostly women) treat me well. It's the guys that really give me the freak show looks! A bit of a ramble, but I think as a group we should take criticism constructively.

[ArleneRaquel]

The people that give me a hard time are teenagers, not so much over the last 2-3 years, and males of any age but usually between the ages of 20 to 40's.

[AllieSF]

Thanks for sharing Sheri. I don't believe all feel that way, and actually it may be more her issue than the others nbased on reading your post "but she still thinks we are gross and weird but will always take our money." At the same time, I think we sometimes get carried away thinking that tolerance is the same as acceptance. Those two concepts may merge at the edges, but acceptance is the more important goal out there. I always try to bring myself back to earth after a fabulous evening out meeting new people who make me feel that I am no different than anybody else. However, I do know that I am something new and fun to them, so they tolerate and enjoy my company and do not necessarily accept who and what I am. I like you idea of keeping your makeover goal on your bucket list. Don't let her spoil your joy. Just take it as another learning and eye opening experience.

[Beverley Sims]

I am pleased that some people are straight and honest.
I totally agree with her and when I do not get some criticism of my looks I am on my guard.
I am always careful to not weird the SA's out by stating my case early in the piece and I finish up with a great interaction with them.
They do not mind helping a man trying to be a woman.
We generally do appear weird and although accepted, weird is still there.
I do prefer to be told my shortcomings so as I can work on them than be given false confidence and go out just "too weird."
If I am asked on this forum how someone looks I will try "tactfully" to say it is not all that good, because the person has probably worked on that guy in a dress and made many improvements. Me, I am on a downhill slope now and do not look nearly as good as when I was twenty.

At that time I had five girls to show me how to groom myself and present myself correctly.
Comments like downright ugly and very bad deportment helped me to the stage of "OK and you walk better now".
This increased to "God I wish I could look like you do now and I like the sexy walk much better now".
This inspired confidence because it came from my chief critics.
To finish it off, "don't wear that wear this instead" meant I could carry of the "delusion" of looking like a girl as long as I did'nt open my mouth too much.
Over time that improved too.

[Tracii G]

Nice insight in to the way they look at us.

[Megan70]

I've had 2 makeover in past years, both at nationally known Ulta. They were horrible, one was overdone like a hooker the other made me look like the circus was in town and I was the featured clown with goofy over done purple eye shadow. I can do a much better job myself, as well as saving money and being wrapped in afalse pink fog ego trip.To get my wigs styled. I've learned to do that too very well too and save $35 or have my wife do it. Both make overs were done by beauticians ( one the studio manager) who had never worked on a crossnesses before. They won't on me again, thats for sure.

[Melissa Rose]

Her opinion was that they.....will never be good looking women.
Reality sucks especially when it blind-sides you. If I am being honest and using GGs as a reference point, she is right more times than wrong. I am being literal and factoring in the "good looking" part of the statement. I am a member of an active and large sized TG group. As much as it pains me to admit, the majority of the members would not be considered to be good looking women with many being easily read. Sorry if this seems harsh, but it is reality (at least, my version of it) and it sucks. The bothersome part for me is them finding cross dressers gross.


.....really discourages me but it wont make me quit.
So I guess the secret to getting a makeover from the makeup lady means you have to find a GG who is totally real. Otherwise its an illusion we say to ourselves to keep our confidence up.
I am unclear about what "have to find a GG who is totally real" means in this context. IMHO, there is no secret. It is about not getting discouraged and not caring too much whether the makeup person thinks you are a good looking woman. Confidence comes from within. If you feel good and think you look good, own it and let that be the source of your confidence. Find a makeup sales associate who treats you well and takes care of you. What they think inside is not as important unless it affects their behavior towards you. If it does, go to someone else. Find one who makes you feel comfortable. I doubt her and her colleague's comments are representative of everyone. If a sales associate is truly driven by making a sale, they are going to do a good job regardless of the customer since making the customer look good makes the sale. The sales associates have plenty of GG customers who would not be considered to be good looking. I bet occasional comments are made behind their backs also.

Acceptance and tolerance are two different things. We cannot control what others think and feel. I can judge tolerance by someone's behavior, but I cannot measure their level of acceptance unless it is blatantly obvious. I cannot make someone accept me, but I can demand and expect a reasonable level of tolerance and respect.

[Jenniferathome]

one person does not represent a group. Your sample size is just too small to make the conclusion you have drawn. This ONE person has these feelings but that is no reason to give up the ghost.

[Chickhe]

Take in to consideration that the girl might have been telling you what she thinks a guy would want to hear... it might change her attitude if someone she knows did it. Consider asking her to do you over just for curiosity sake to see how well you could look... probably wouldn't do it in the context of being tg though. I would take the crossing the legs thing with a grain of salt...it just means sit lady like, it doesn't mean try to act all girly...which probably wouldn't go well... I think the key is to be respectful and if they can see you are decent person they should respect you too.

[Kathi Lake]

I have known plenty of MUAs/cosmetologists/etc. and it is true - some of them do indeed feel that way. You know what? You can tell. Does it matter? Nope. Are they going to do the service you've asked them to? They'd better. You are the customer, after all. Now if they're so "grossed out" that they're just slapping the makeup on you, then by all means - get up, thank them for their time, and leave. If, however, you cultivate a friendship with them, and be "real" in turn, you will have a much better outcome.

You say that your friend doesn't know you're transgendered, so I have to ask; are you being "totally real?" It's a two-way street.

Kathi

[Eryn]

Your friend was generalizing the situation to someone whom she thinks is a typical unapproving member of society. She has painted a stereotypical image (ugly CDer sitting like a man in a dress) because she thinks that it will entertain you. If she knew about you her story would be considerably different.

The fact of life is that makeup artists in department stores seldom get to work on Halle Berry, Anne Hathaway, or Nicole Kidman. Their typical customers are pimply teenagers, weathered forty- and fifty-somethings and, yes, CDers. Their favorite customers are the ones who buy a lot of product. Make no mistake. These are professional salespeople. The best ones make their customers feel welcome regardless of their personal feelings.

You shouldn't feel bad because one person says something negative. Let it roll off and move on to something more positive.

[Leslie Langford]

Kerrigirl, while your post is certainly a reality check in that it warns us that we can't become delusional about just how widespread acceptance sometimes appears to be, it is not all "doom and gloom" either. I've never had a makeover done at a department store make up counter myself, but to hear some of the ladies here tell it, they have had wonderful and self-affirming experiences at MAC, Ulta, Sephora, and at times Merle Norman locations.

I think the key here is to find a make up artist who by her very nature is TG-friendly to begin with, and the rest all falls into place after that. I found one lovely lady (Kelly) whom I have gone to for the past 3 years and who operates her own studio out of her home. She treats me just like one of her regular GG customers (better, in fact, I sometimes suspect), knows my likes and dislikes, and has helped me develop a look that generally enables me to blend in seamlessly when out in public, if not downright "pass" at times.

My sessions with Kelly are not only make up applications, we chat, laugh, and gossip about this, that, and the other just like two GG's. I swear that she sometimes almost seems to forget that I am a male underneath it all, so caught up in the moment do we sometimes become. It is a total "girly" experience for me each time I go there, and I would venture to guess that I have the same rapport with her that my wife has with her hairdresser of many years' standing.

That said, I first found Kelly via an Internet search, and in an introductory e-mail identified myself as to what I was, what I was looking for, and asked if she would be willing to take me on as a client. Her initial response was not only positive, it was downright enthusiastic, and the rest is history.

True, some GG's who are the SA's, make up artists, and nail techs etc. whom we come into contact with might find us "weird" or "gross" initially, and may even be reluctant to deal with us because they have had no previous experience with crossdressers and have had their perception of our community shaped by the likes of Jerry Springer and the train wreck of a show that he presides over as ringmaster. I suspect that in these instances, if we unexpectedly plop ourselves down in front of them at a department store make up counter, it might make for an unexpected and therefore awkward encounter for them. But in my experience, for each GG of this type who shies away from us, there are a dozen others who are intrigued by us and our lifestyle, and jump at the chance to get to know us better and work with us.

The fundamental trick to pulling this off is - no surprises! And as we all know, to know us is to love us...;)

[Candice Mae]

.......................

[Nicole Erin]

Tonight my car started messing up. I will have to crawl under it to find what I believe is the problem. However - when it happened, I didn't feel anywhere near as bad as when I read the OP.


If she knew about you her story would be considerably different.
Eryn is right. it works the same way as when a bigot tries to claim they have a lot of (pick a race) friends the minute they are exposed as the prejudice ass they are.

Now if the friend was just saying this "gross" story to entertain Keri, that shows another problem - this friend, like many people, is wishy washy, probably like her co-workers. If Keri were to mention being CD, all the sudden this girl would claim to have a gay brother, crossdressing uncle, or lesbian sister. Haven't we all heard that before?

Look folks, I used to go to beauty school. The WOMEN there had no problem with me. Thing is, the GIRLS there did have problems. I call some of them girls cause they are not mature enough to be called women. You would think the beauty field would be near devoid of bigots and small minds but there still are plenty.

This thing with people calling CDs "gross" isn't just for the CDs. People tend to feel that way about TS as well. It is a problem for all TG folks. All we can do is wait for the media to promote more TG so the rest of the mindless bigots out there can be programmed.

Oh and you think it bites to hear we are "gross", just wait til someone says "I used to know a CD/TS but with her, you could never tell she used to be a guy". THAT remark hurts much worse. I guess it is just a one-up'sman thing. You study kung-fu but an acquaintance feels the need to tell you about a guy he knew who was 10 times tougher than Chuck Norris...

My thing is - I know I don't pass that well, yet I live full time. I know some people are weirded out or probably talk shit when I leave. I don't care much these days, mostly I just turn a cold shoulder to strangers. I mean we cannot change who we are, but it doesn't mean we have to "love thy neighbor".

EDIT - about the "wonderful experiences" at the makeup places - do not forget these girls are trying to make a buck. Young women are masters of putting on a fake act of friendliness when they want something.
Think of this - when you were younger and trying to flirt with the pretty girls in public, they would often act "too good for you" but when they wanted something, they would pour on the charm. Like if they were selling something and here would be their squeaky high voice and a smile. yet any other time they act like bitches. Never take a young pretty woman's friendliness as genuine.

[DanaR]

What I've read in this thread is so true. It's sad that we can't just look at each other as people with feelings. It seems like there are many that need someone to bully or pick on. Even if someone is putting on a fake face, if they do it well, it feels better than if you feel that they are laughing at you or think that you are gross. Most of the GG's that I've dealt with, if you ask them some questions on how you might be a better girl or something similar, they seem to be very helpful. I've also had some that are more interested in getting your money and you out of their store though; which are the ones that I don't go back to.

[DanielleO]

This is a very interesting thread ! It would be nice to find a CD friendly makeover artist in Colorado... I should see if there are any CD groups in Meetup... might also be a good source of like minded peeps... Locally ?

[Nicole Erin]

Most of the GG's that I've dealt with, if you ask them some questions on how you might be a better girl or something similar, they seem to be very helpful. I've also had some that are more interested in getting your money and you out of their store though; which are the ones that I don't go back to.

With places that just want customers to pay and be gone, they are just trying to get volume. Think of doctors for example - They spend all of 5 minutes with a patient and onto the next one. I don't think being TG has much to do with that.

With GG's trying to help one look better - it is true, they do enjoy helping. Not because they want to help, but because they like to flaunt their knowledge. many people do that. That is what they mean by "charity begins at home".

[AmyGaleRT]

This is a very interesting thread ! It would be nice to find a CD friendly makeover artist in Colorado... I should see if there are any CD groups in Meetup... might also be a good source of like minded peeps... Locally ?

I'm told there are active CD Meetup groups in both Denver and the Springs, though I've not investigated them personally. Don't know about up north where you are. And yes, there are a few of us "like minded people" locally. Quite a few, in fact...:)

I'm also viewing this thread with interest, because I'm currently setting aside money so that I'll be able to get my own MAC makeover come summer.

- Amy

[DanaR]

With places that just want customers to pay and be gone, they are just trying to get volume. Think of doctors for example - They spend all of 5 minutes with a patient and onto the next one. I don't think being TG has much to do with that.
You are probably right, I didn't think of it that way. When someone is trying to rush me out the door, then I'll probably look for somewhere else to spend my money.

[noeleena]

Hi.

I would have to say this is not the case here i have over 7 who do makeup & the like ,& i aoganised a group to come & see my friends who were & are very good in one of our biggest makeup store's some 6 men dressed in feme, how they sat was not an issue i had discused the detail that they were men now thier makeup was done for free , if they wonted to buy any products was up to them .

Now im a woman & i dont cross my legs very much because of injurys to my hip. i just sit like a normal woman with my knees close together, is there a issue with that , no of cause not because many women dont cross thier legs ,

The point of gross ugly, & never look like women is correct many men i have seen & know are like that , they cant help how they are as to how they look even with makeup . as to ugly many men look quite lovely .whats ugly in context to age, both men & women.

Now as to looking like womem . as a female im very aware of this, not all of those of us who are female have ...those female looks...so you can only do the best with what you are born with . surgery is not going to happen,

any way my friends have accepted who i am as a person its not based on looks theres a lot more to us as people than just how you look,

I wonder what she would think & or say had i been there, oh heres another dresser even a trans, sorry mam im a female think again. ....but but but ....& i dont wear makeup dont need it,

& as to a good looking woman , im not & never will be, yet im still female who is a woman. love to see her face when she stands in front of myself, now how about a photo or two. im up for it email me & ill try & send some over .

...noeleena...

[Pearl]

your post makes me feel very fortunate to have my girl friend. she was helping me with makeup (i just started dressing about 3 months ago) and she told me she hasn't ever made anyone up before, and we talked about getting a makeover somewhere that would be accepting.
she already knew what the attitude would be in a lot of places, and was concerned that what happened to you would happen to me. we went to a wig store where the sales person was just obtuse. (i ordered two on the net, should be here friday)
so the next day, my gf tells me she got ahold of a "pink cadillac" (don't know the rules about brand names) distributor who manages in our area of New York, and that she had scheduled a home makeover with her for me. this is great for me, as this consultant has done this many times for crossdressers and is comfortable with us. she'll be here saturday morning!

[DanaR]

I've had very good experiences too. I just look at the bad ones, and there really hasn't been that many that were bad, as things that do happen. I hope that anyone reading this doesn't give up and not try, because there are a lot of nice people out that do care about us. My experiences have been more positive than negative.

[Amanda M]

This one person was probably not unique, of course, but may not be representative either. Heads up, ladies!

[Tibby]

I certainly wouldn't let it get to you, it is simply the views of one person who lacks the ability to think of other peoples feelings or to put themselves in their situation. As for saying that CDers are ugly and gross, she's not very good at her job then is she. If anyone goes for a make over and the person doing it thinks they are ugly afterwards then that is a reflection on the ability of the artist not the canvas. If she's saying things like this about one section of her customers, what is she saying about the rest, after all not every woman who goes for a make over is beautiful, does she make snide comments about them too.
Have a makeover and be beautiful but let it be with an artist who is good at what they do, a good one can work with any canvas and end up with a masterpiece.

[Emma Beth]

I am saddened by this, not just because of the attitude toward CDers. That is really poor customer service attitude and etiquette. I've worked in customer service type jobs for many years and had been taught to never talk bad about any customer, even behind their back off the sales floor.

I'm not saying I never talk about the customers, just that I never speak ill for any reason.

Love and Hugs,
Jamie

[Rogina B]

You say that your friend doesn't know you're transgendered, so I have to ask; are you being "totally real?" It's a two-way street.

Kathi
Kathi beat me to the words while I was sleeping!! And,someone you only know online is just "someone that you chat with"..obviously you aren't really comfortable with her or this conversation wouldn't have happened!






EDIT - about the "wonderful experiences" at the makeup places - do not forget these girls are trying to make a buck. Young women are masters of putting on a fake act of friendliness when they want something.
Think of this - when you were younger and trying to flirt with the pretty girls in public, they would often act "too good for you" but when they wanted something, they would pour on the charm. Like if they were selling something and here would be their squeaky high voice and a smile. yet any other time they act like bitches. Never take a young pretty woman's friendliness as genuine.
"The boobs are real,the smile is fake"..

[Catherine Hopkins]

Your friend was generalizing the situation to someone whom she thinks is a typical unapproving member of society. She has painted a stereotypical image (ugly CDer sitting like a man in a dress) because she thinks that it will entertain you. If she knew about you her story would be considerably different.

The fact of life is that makeup artists in department stores seldom get to work on Halle Berry, Anne Hathaway, or Nicole Kidman. Their typical customers are pimply teenagers, weathered forty- and fifty-somethings and, yes, CDers. Their favorite customers are the ones who buy a lot of product. Make no mistake. These are professional salespeople. The best ones make their customers feel welcome regardless of their personal feelings.

You shouldn't feel bad because one person says something negative. Let it roll off and move on to something more positive.

Spot on Eryn. And you know what. They probably also feel contempt for the spotty teens and weathered forty-somethings. Sales people the world over snigger and gossip behind customers backs. Being trans is just one target but there are countless others.

[Kristyn Hill]

wow, I would think a real make up artist would love the challenge of giving an illusion for us. I hope your friend is a minority in her thinking.

[Kate Simmons]

So, what you are saying is that the women really don't like doing it but are being cordial for the sake of business. We shouldn't feel "special" that that is the case. I know many female hairdressers who think some of their women customers are gross in one way or another, always commenting on or complaining about this, that or the other thing. We just have to realize that that is just human nature and we can't please everyone but if we are the paying customer, they have to wait on us regardless if they want the money.:)

[Deedee Skyblue]

Never take a young pretty woman's friendliness as genuine.

This is a pretty rude generalization to make. This is true of some men and women; they are friendly when they want something and arrogant when they feel like they don't need someone else. Not just young pretty women. But most people who appear friendly, are friendly.

Deedee

[kimdl93]

I never base my assessment of any group from a single anecdote...or in this case, one make up artist. It's possible that the women she works with find us gross...or that she personally has some,prejudice. I don't think this applies to the make up artists I have gotten to know. The only negative comment I heard was that one CDr that they served was unpleasant, sullen and seemingly withdrawn. They didn't assume that was true,of all CDrs either.

[JulieK1980]

Your friend doesn't sound like the type of person I'd want to be around. I'm not a huge fan of anyone that puts people down to get laughs.

[xdressed]

" if you want to look like a lady, you need to act like a lady too" otherwise it is just gross" .

Something we should keep in mind generally I think

[Sarasometimes]

I agree that your sample is too small to draw conclusions from. Undoubtedly though, it is true that some MUA's will feel just like her but not all. Just like she shouldn't bunch us all together, neither should we bunch them together! I have had many very pleasant makeovers, mostly in salons, but even at makeup stores and counters (usually MAC counters). What brand does she work for? Maybe they and or the store don't do any sensitivity training. One give away for me is if you show up dressed in a dress/skirt and all your other attire/accessaries are feminine and they us he or him, it usually means more. Getting the pronouns right is an indication that they understand, at least a bit.
I also get my human hair wigs styled and of the numerous salons I've tried some just give you that vibe and you don't return, others welcomming. One interesting salon where I still go to for pedis, has a lovely nail tech that even remembered my kids ages (months later) but the time I went for a wig styling with a stylist there the wheels fell off. All was well until the stylist asked me how my wife feels and when I replied DODT the whole mood changed. NowI could have said simply fine but I didn't. She actually, in a sort of slick way had two junior stylists finish me.
Now some will question why I still return and it is simple the salon is great with one exception and she doesn't get my money anymore. I brought the hair thing to a manager's attention and got all the right replies and a monetary adjustment for future pedicures (the front dress said that had she known while I was still there it would have been cash back).
I try to focus on the nice (to my face atleast) interactions. If anyone here has ever worked in a customer oriented job I'll bet they bad mouthed many a customer in the back room regardless of the type of business and for a multitude of reasons. I only concern myself with how I'm treated face to face.

[aprilgirl]

I’ve only had a few professional makeovers and they were pleasant experiences. In each case they were set up prior, which if anyone has concerns about being treated professionally, I would suggest doing. While I’ve shopped issue free in department stores, I’ve never gone in “cold” to a make-up counter and have wondered how that would be received. I’ve read plenty of accounts from members here that have and don’t recall any negative reactions encountered. Perhaps a majority of the battle towards being “accepted” comes from how one projects themselves from the inside.

I’ve also gone to spas for pedicures and wig boutiques en femme and if any staff had any issues with me being there it was hidden well. Again, in all instances they were arranged in advance. Quite frankly, I’m more concerned about a negative reaction from another customer than from anyone working at any given establishment. Not so much how it would effect me, but more so the livelihood of the store, particularly if it’s an independent business.

Oh, and I keep my knees together and cross at the ankle.

[Babette]

one person does not represent a group. Your sample size is just too small to make the conclusion you have drawn....

I fully agree with Jennifer's point. It doesn't matter what profession or trade you are talking about, there always seems to be a minority of people with deplorable behavior. Grant it, an enjoyable makeover is a wonderful experience. If you don't have a great place to receive one, the best thing is learning how to do it yourself. That's what I did a long time ago and it wasn't that difficult. The amount of information and tutorials on the Internet seems endless.

[Jamie Christopher]

Like April, I've had some success with a pre-arranged appointment, laying everything out in advance, so to speak, and it was at a MAC counter. My MUA was great, but some other customers making their presence "too well known" were an uncomfortable experience, and my MUA basically told them to buzz off..... "as you can see I have an appointment"....

I had a terrible experience when I walked into an Ulta location unannounced enfemme to inquire about making an appointment for a makeover, and was treated like Frankenstein by the manager initially; she's much better now, but nothing like the welcome at MAC. I started by calling, and explaining that I was a MTF Crossdresser and wanted to learn more about better makeup techniques. The staff person I spoke with was just fabulous and she was very friendly.

Jamie

[Sharon B.]

This may be true but I have seen some woman that could take a few lessons from us on how to act like a woman.

[PretzelGirl]

I never base my assessment of any group from a single anecdote...or in this case, one make up artist.

This is a big point to me. Whenever a person has a certain view, then they paint the majority of the world as having the same view. It is a human nature type thing as we all like to feel we have the majority of people behind us. You can see it here when it comes to any discussion that has differing perspectives. Someone on one side of the coin will come out with a comment that 90%+ of everyone is XXXX when if you read all the comments you can see it isn't true. The old saying that the truth is someone in the middle has some background to it.

So I wouldn't let this sit on anyone's mind if you are wanting a makeover. If they agree to the appointment, you are most of the way there. If you have a bad experience, then never go back to the lady and move on. But I am guessing that is a rarity because of the sales potential.

[CassandraSmith]

I think the key here is to find a make up artist who by her very nature is TG-friendly to begin with[...]

That ability to read someone is obscured by my fears surrounding CDing still. I'm pretty good at it in other areas of my life. I've met a few women who were dying to dress me up and put make-up on me. Unfortunately, when I was younger, I was still too terrified about it to realize what they were offering and take them up on it! So this one person's opinion is understandable because I think that females who support CDing are in the minority. That's the only conclusion I would draw from this one encounter and I wouldn't write off all of them.

My take on it is that it's all really about confidence. If I ever get to the point where I'd try that, I'm going to walk up in guy mode and just ask, "Is there anyone here who enjoys making a guy look like a woman?" Then I don't care who it is as long as they really like me and want to help.

Often, when I hear this sort of story here, I've wondered what would happen if we cried a little. Not a crocodile tears and not a cloudburst but a sincere sign of hurt feelings. Maybe that would bring it home that their comments are cutting and intolerant.


Never take a young pretty woman's friendliness as genuine.

There's a grain of truth to this. To be fair, I'd say to any young woman, never take a young man's sexual interest seriously unless they give you a ring.

The real thing is that during puberty, it is crucial for teens to differentiate their personalities from their parents. Consequently, they often rebel or at the least refuse to behave in ways that make them think they are too much like mom or dad. In addition, during this time, both sexes become incredibly selfish, ego-absorbed, even narcissistic and often it takes a while after entering adulthood to shake loose from this emotionally volatile and immature way of thinking. That's why our parents used to recommend waiting until a woman was 25 before marrying them; they're still just too much in flux and finding themselves before that time.

The young women I've seen behind most of these counters appear to be high school graduates with limited life experience. So of course, you're going to find disapproval and intolerance. It's most likely just an echo of their parents values more than anything. In fact, I'd dare to say that most people really haven't found their own center until they're 30+.

[Kerigirl2009]

Kathi Lake - You totally understood what I was trying to say. If we go out to get our makeup done, dont be so nervous that you just pick some random lady to give it to you, find the right woman that looks you in the eye and can still smile. One that makes you feel good even if she thinks otherwise. I have been lucky so far, I have found several women that have no problem with meeting Keri and that makes me feel good inside, and gives me a drive to continue being true to myself.

The cross your legs comment was more directed to say that if we want tolerance, then dont be a neanderthal and sit with your legs like a man, I was not trying to say talk and act like a woman, (well do it if you can be comfortable) For me, when I dress I want to be as close to passable as possible, I know I will always have guy traits but the less the better.

Being able to talk to someone that has no idea about me, just because this gives me an honest insight into what people really feel about us

OK the reason this woman does not know I am Transgendered is- she is my Step-Fathers girlfriend. so yes I see her at many family functions, she is a very nice lady to talk to and she is always smiling, My Step father does not know because my wife does not want everyone to know. Now I believe their are about sixteen people that I have told and so far so good. I am at a crossroads right now and sooner or later I have to make a decision on which way to go and if I choose to forage ahead, I will have no problem telling her about me. But until then she will remain in the dark as long as possible.

Am I being true to myself about being Transgendered? My answer- I am trying to be true to myself as well as my family. So every chance I get Yes I am.

[Monicamaryjay]

Kathi beat me to the words while I was sleeping!! And,someone you only know online is just "someone that you chat with"..obviously you aren't really comfortable with her or this conversation wouldn't have happened!

Precisely....Underlying this relationship is deception.

I wonder what her response would have been if she had known that you cd?

She may have been parroting what she thought you might want to hear.

Just a thought.
Monica

[DanaR]

.................... If we go out to get our makeup done, dont be so nervous that you just pick some random lady to give it to you, find the right woman that looks you in the eye and can still smile. One that makes you feel good even if she thinks otherwise........................................

Several years ago, while attending a TG convention, I met a Mary Kay lady; who was attending the convention with another vendor. I had known the other vendor for a while, as she sold jewelry at some of the local crossdressing events. I talked to the Mary Kay lady a few times during the week and she gave me her card and told me to call her sometime. Several months later, I called and we made an appointment for a makeover and then the day of the appointment, she cancelled. I mentioned this to my wife and she said that maybe she didn't want to see me; which is what we figured out after the same thing happened a couple more times. She was always nice to me on the phone, but when the time came she just couldn't go through with it and never told me that.

[lingerieLiz]

I would bet that your friend thinks some women are gross also. I've interacted with girls and women through the years. When I was young more than one girl helped me look and feel like a girl. My landlady who was a beautician taught me how to do my wig and makeup. She encourged me to dress and go out as a girl.

Today I don't try to pass, but enjoy women's casual clothes and do underdress. I get my hair cut and shop in women's sections of the stores and seem to be accepted. I know that it upsets some people and SAs, but others who get to know me are more than happy to see me and help me find what I'm looking for.

[Debglam]

One incident, 1 makeup artist, 1 story.

I have had some extremely pleasant experiences with makeup artists and sales associates. I've been around the block, have worked retail myself, and I can tell fake from real. Yes, these people are trying to make a sale but if you have ever worked retail, there are customers that make the experience pleasant and there are difficult customers. Sounds like Keri's friend should look for another line of work.

I will add one thing. What brand does your friend work for? The hipper the brand, the more trans friendly they are going to be. I'm not going to mention any names, but there are department store cosmetic brands that cater to richer, older women. They are not going to want to chat it up with a CD when their bread and butter is in little old snooty-faced ladies!

[Lorileah]

of course you now wonder what they think of GG's who come in that won't ever be Miss America. Dang, I wish I had a job where I could cherry pick

[AmyGaleRT]

The cross your legs comment was more directed to say that if we want tolerance, then dont be a neanderthal and sit with your legs like a man, I was not trying to say talk and act like a woman, (well do it if you can be comfortable) For me, when I dress I want to be as close to passable as possible, I know I will always have guy traits but the less the better.

This point is well taken. When I go in for my makeover, I will be dressed, and I will act as ladylike as possible. Yes, I'm the customer, but I also consider myself a "guest" in their world, and I will conduct myself accordingly.

- Amy

[ReineD]

I asked her pretty straight forward questions and what i learned is that the women she works with DO NOT LIKE working on crossdressers, Her opinion was that they are gross and ugly and will never be good looking women.

I've often wondered why people are so nice to my SO and I when we go out (she's dressed, of course), yet whenever I hear people talk about CDers in my presence (they don't know that my SO is trans), I hear disparaging remarks. And this is from both men and women. I hate to think that people are hypocritical.

I think that your friend may be more biased than most though. The disparaging remarks I hear are jokes and I've not heard anyone say that CDers are gross and ugly. Most people just think that CDers are gay.

But, maybe the saving grace is, the people who make jokes do so because they haven't interacted with a CDer, and so there is no meaningful, personal human experience to attach to the stereotypical mental image of a CDer. And maybe when people actually begin to interact with someone who engages in cross-gender expression, they can see that the person in front of them is human, just like them.

If your friend has interacted with CDers and she still has her attitude she may be more bigoted than most and she may be projecting her attitudes on everyone else.

[Rogina B]

Most people just think that CDers are gay.

But, maybe the saving grace is, the people who make jokes do so because they haven't interacted with a CDer, and so there is no meaningful, personal human experience to attach to the stereotypical mental image of a CDer. And maybe when people actually begin to interact with someone who engages in cross-gender expression, they can see that the person in front of them is human, just like them.

If your friend has interacted with CDers and she still has her attitude she may be more bigoted than most and she may be projecting her attitudes on everyone else.
These are the reasons that polite but confident behavior go far in order to form a new image of a TG person in their heads.Confidence and keeping it all friendly and light.."Can you make me look pretty like you?" is quite disarming to a young cosmetics salesgirl.."I didn't think so,but can you help me look better than I am?"..The point is,you are there and confident enough to say this and so she realizes you are apt to buy something...you are a customer,just like the other ones.

[xdressed]

But, maybe the saving grace is, the people who make jokes do so because they haven't interacted with a CDer, and so there is no meaningful, personal human experience to attach to the stereotypical mental image of a CDer. And maybe when people actually begin to interact with someone who engages in cross-gender expression, they can see that the person in front of them is human, just like them.

This has definitely been my experience in regards to most people's attitudes

[Jana]

I've had 2 makeover in past years, both at nationally known Ulta. They were horrible.

I'm sorry to hear that, Megan. Though it's not surprising. Most makeup "artists" at malls and stores are trained (when trained) to work on GGs. I've seen them botch many GGs, too. So, if they can't even manage to pull off something they were supposed to know about, just imagine what they produce when they wing it with a TG customer? The reality is masculine faces require different makeup techniques. Otherwise, we end up looking like men with makeup. It starts with a great shave, then beard shadow cover. Because of that, foundation application can be tricky. Highlighting and countouring is a totally different game, as our underlying bone structure is different from that of GGs. Eyes will also be a little different. So, aside from the very fortunate few, who were blessed with feminine traits and no facial hair, most of us require specialized makeup professionals. Unfortunately, people at Ulta, Mac and Sephora are generally not it. Though they will gladly take our money, and sometimes make fun of us behind our backs. :(

[Sarasometimes]

I have had GG's opt out of giving me a makeup lesson. I have had several instantly smile and glow at the chance. Sure it may be tough to be positive the reaction is sincere but for me I'm not worried about trying to figure that all out. I used to work in retail as an hourly worker and the only way to act with any customer was to be polite and helpful. When the one left that we weren't fond of we would in private vent. I can't worry about what happens after I leave if i have been treated properly while i was somewhere. This applies whether enmale or enfemme. Life is too short.
The stereotyping of young women is the very thing we claim to hate having done to us. A GG image consultant that I went to several times has met me for a cup of coffee off the clock for years now. Just keeping in touch because we have nice conversation. I can't imagine that she continues to do this purely on the outside chance i will hire her again. her business is so good we stuggle to make these coffee clatches happen.
We want the benefit of the doubt so why not reciprocate.

[Momarie]

This is a pretty rude generalization to make. This is true of some men and women; they are friendly when they want something and arrogant when they feel like they don't need someone else. Not just young pretty women. But most people who appear friendly, are friendly.

Deedee

Thank you for saying this Deedee,

It's dis-heartening to see all the judgment.

[Kerigirl2009]

Wow, I see that most of us are in agreement, we just need to keep our confidence and if they are a good person, they will be able to have a nice conversation with us, and if they don't then we should find someone else to give our money too.
I am amazed at the amount of responses that this received, So I guess stirring the pot is a good thing because good things do come from negative sometimes.

[krisinpink]

To make an optimistic point, I've been working with the two locations of our Merle Norman stores here in central Iowa, initially with the shop owner, and since with two of her employees. I've always been treated very well, been given genuinely good advice, and even had one evenings make up applied at the store. I guess my only point in sharing this is that there are folks in the retail cosmetics business that are open to treating CDers just like any other cosmetics buyer!

[sandra-leigh]

As much as it pains me to admit, the majority of the members would not be considered to be good looking women with many being easily read.

There are some sub-populations in which it is fairly common for the younger women to be "pretty" but the older women tend become stocky and "peasant-like". I am descended from one such sub-population, so even if I were a GG, it would not be expected that I would be "good looking" at my age.


Thats one thing I can't do is cross my legs,

I can cross my legs, and often do -- but it isn't "lady-like", as I cross-them way up, ankles-on-thighs. What used to be called "sitting Indian-style". What I cannot do is cross my ankles comfortably: my leg muscles are at the wrong angle, and my "male parts" get squished.

[Eryn]

To make an optimistic point, I've been working with the two locations of our Merle Norman stores here in central Iowa, initially with the shop owner, and since with two of her employees. I've always been treated very well...

In the early 80s, long before I ever considered CDing, I went to a Merle Norman store with my then girlfriend. I bought some cosmetics for her and since I paid for them I ended up on their mailing list. Some time later I received a coupon for a free lipstick in the mail. I knew my girlfriend's shade so I dropped by the store to redeem the coupon. The salesgirl refused to honor the coupon because, as she said, "the coupons are for customers who will buy something." I asked to see the manager, but she was "out." Later on, I returned to the store and managed to see the manager who reluctantly honored the coupon.

Now the funny part. Since I've started dressing I have attended several concerts and film events in the palatial living room of the President of Merle Norman, J. B. Nethercutt. Every time I have felt comfortable and been treated perfectly normally.

Times do change, and for the better. :)

[MissTee]

This is a good reality check. I do feel most do not understand us, and many do not want to because it's simply not mainstream thinking. About two years ago I witnessed this occurring at a local home show. A rather effeminate gentlemen (girl jeans, rose colored mules, et al) was the talk of the vendor floor. As my wife and I were sitting together at our booth we had frequent visits from numerous colleagues making sure we stayed in the loop regarding all the speculation of our "quite queer" neighbor. Anyway, he eventually made it over to say hello and we welcomed him to sit down and chat. Almost every one of the gossip mongers made it a point to stop by and chat while he was there. All were polite and there was no shortage of genuine southern hospitality flowing from their mouths. Some even complimented him on his looks, and how "well put together" he was. Once he departed our company he again became the secret spectacle.

So, I'd offer up that most people do not accept, but rather: will tolerate so they don't risk their jobs; are conflict adverse and don't want to start a verbal/physical altercation; or want to appear OK with it to an audience who feigns some acceptance. Along with that, I'd say many of those that truly are OK with CD-ing keep it a secret for fear of upsetting the herd.

That said, I choose to keep my CD-ing private so that I don't get my family caught up in the crossfire. However, I don't let it stop me from enjoying a new skirt, some cute shoes, matching panties and bra . . . . in the privacy of my own home

[Jessica86]

1. I've NEVER seen a woman crossing her legs at a makeup counter. They are always leaned into the light for the artist.
2. There are all kinds of women. There are all kinds of men. Nobody is going to know you are a crossdresser unless....you act like one. Just act like yourself. Every woman acts different. Same with us.

Life is too short to be unhappy. Stop judging yourself off of what everyone thinks. I know this is like cars. I bought a camaro, and my brother did too. I got the SS, and he had a V6. People used to tell him "You should have got the V8." I was always told "You should have got the stick." (me) "It is a stick," (them) "Well, you should have got racing stripes." Each person you come across will have to say something negative about you so they can now be the center of attention.

[Nicole Erin]

One thing also - when you work with the public, you tend to learn what a pain in the ass people can be.
The makeup ladies probably don't like dealing with anyone who is not their peer.

I guess for TG - we still have a ways to go for "acceptance". I think we are pretty much at "tolerated" by now but still have a bit to go.

Something I wonder also - do people more readily accept a CD/TS if she is better looking or at least has her look together well? To use an extreme example - If say Miss Canada (is it the TS woman?) were out and about and people knew, would they be more cool with it than say if it were an older one who has no hope of passing and just looked really awful (even if dressed to blend in)?
As we know, people tend to be more forgiving of good looking people's faults. Wonder if that applies to TG as well.

[Leslie Langford]

In the early 80s, long before I ever considered CDing, I went to a Merle Norman store with my then girlfriend. I bought some cosmetics for her and since I paid for them I ended up on their mailing list. Some time later I received a coupon for a free lipstick in the mail. I knew my girlfriend's shade so I dropped by the store to redeem the coupon. The salesgirl refused to honor the coupon because, as she said, "the coupons are for customers who will buy something." I asked to see the manager, but she was "out." Later on, I returned to the store and managed to see the manager who reluctantly honored the coupon.

Now the funny part. Since I've started dressing I have attended several concerts and film events in the palatial living room of the President of Merle Norman, J. B. Nethercutt. Every time I have felt comfortable and been treated perfectly normally.

Times do change, and for the better. :)

I hope that you continue to wear the same shade of lipstick that you had to pry out of the cold, gnarled hands of that recalcritant Merle Norman manager as an act of on-going pride and defiance, Eryn. They say that living well is the best revenge, and you certainly seem to have achieved that goal in this particular instance.

[Eryn]

I hope that you continue to wear the same shade of lipstick that you had to pry out of the cold, gnarled hands of that recalcritant Merle Norman manager as an act of on-going pride and defiance, Eryn....

Actually, I've forgotten the name. These days I mostly wear Lancôme lipsticks!

One thing, I didn't wish to cast aspersions on any current Merle Norman store or employee. What happened 25+ years ago doesn't have anything to do with today's situation.

[Melissa Rose]

Something I wonder also - do people more readily accept a CD/TS if she is better looking or at least has her look together well?
I think there is some truth to it; however, it is not strictly about being better looking. It is more about being feminine in a way to make them almost forget or not be constantly reminded the person is really a man. Being a better looking woman does help with creating that impression. Humans are very visual so appearance does matter, but it is not everything. Your entire presentation has to be totally together such as body language, mannerisms, vocal quality and speech patterns (being there is more to a female voice than pitch), etc.. If any part of it is forced or artificial, others pick up on it as not being genuine. This also means avoiding over exaggerated, out dated, misplaced or male centric expressions of femininity. IMHO, those who give off a complete aura of being a genuine woman, which goes beyond appearance, probably have the most success with being accepted by others.

[Robbin_Sinclair]

My, my, all this for a shop clerk's comment. I am rather used to rude clerk's in this part of the world. Few have had good training, few are paid well, all have multiple management levels above them and, as posted, perhaps this GG was playing up to what the male in her eyes wanted to hear. Maybe she is even sweet on you and thinks this will make a good impression...or at least conversation. That said,

Just before the new year I tried my hand on poetry. I posted a version of this poem on the writer's section of this site. As I've learned, few people seem to read anything but the male to female crossdressing section, so here it is again. It's called,

Ode To A Shop Clerk

My sweet serene
I don't mean to be mean
But this is for me
...for..I believe,

it gives me beauty

...I know you'll never know
...and you can believe it so

no I'm not gay
nor I do I think that way

today

Please let me purchase it
I have le card de credit (poetic license)
Can you change the size? Does it go with my eyes?
Don't you just love how it lies?

The gold is so fine
I know it is sublime

Thank you my dear
Sweet clerk's dreams to you dear
and please don't fear
this happy new year

[luscious]

there use to be this makeup artist at glamour boutique in north Hollywood/universal city/Sherman oaks area

if this artist did your make up you would look like a pin up model just like what JAIME AUSTIN and KEVYN AUCOIN skills do.

there is also a fashion model who is a TS at MAC cosmetics that has these skills.

I bet you that your friend has never seen models like these posted below

Aron daves or anyone from the ball and pageant culture.

aron daves pictured below is a cross dressing model and does not live as a girl. he model as a man and sometimes as a androgynous model

the models from the balls and pageants mostly go on to be stealth super models on TV,movies and high fashion and glamour magazines.

I know of some STEALTH crossdressing models and transsexual stealth models that she would not know that they were born a boy.

[luscious]

this is aron daves as a male model

remember when someone is a TS/TG OR CD and they are in stealth mode know one knows except the people they tell

remember TULAfrom the JAMES BOND MOVIE

there are others who were in stealth and someone researched them and found out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Cossey

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1G1TSNA_ENUS394&q=TULA+CAROLINE+COSSEY&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41018144,d.b2I&biw=1237&bih=583&wrapid=tlif135843353483010&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=AA34UO29K-Sj2QXH7YC4Cg

[Marleena]

Keri I've often wondered what some people really think of us. This is a wake up call but I'm hoping she's in the minority of women that deal with us.

[LauraBird]

I find the OP's post a little sad... but inside I always wondered about some of these "wonderful experiences" girls here have had at various places. First, they are entitled to their opinion, and the best we can ask is that they be professional and do their job - which it sounds like, they do. I have lots of people I work with now, or have worked with or sold to in the past, that I really don't like - but I'm nice to them and treat them with respect.

It takes a LOT of practice at "being a lady" to really pull it off and not stand out (I'm awful at it myself) and sometimes, you just have to "get out there" and do it and let it come to you as you go. But I think, sometimes, we really have to take a step back and give an honest look at ourselves - it can be startling to someone who has never been exposed to our world. Even with the right clothes, wig, shoes, and makeup, other things can "give it away" really quickly. How you walk, how you sit, how you carry your weight, etc. Heck my wife can be sitting around in a pair of my sweats, my old sweatshirt, one of my baseball caps (with hair tied up in a bun in the back), and not wearing ANY makeup, and she'd never be confused with being a guy.

Similar to like what the girl in the OP said about crossing legs - I'm guessing some of the CD'ers she's had have not been well practiced. Sitting in a high chair getting a makeover with your legs wide open is a natural pose for a guy but definitely not for a lady - if I saw a GG sitting that way, I'd think it was certainly inappropriate too and certainly startling to see! (I don't know if I'd have chosen the term "gross" but...) I'd also imagine (total random guess here) that most of the CD'ers that go in for professional makeovers are newer at it. They don't know how to do it so they go in, get a pro to do it, and look fabulous afterwards. I'd think that, over time, most of us start to figure it out on our own. I'm fortunate to have an accepting wife who has shown me how to do my own makeup (I still need tons of practice) but if I didn't have her, I'd probably wind up going someplace like MAC or a department store too - until I'd finally had enough of paying for it and decide to learn it myself. It'd probably be one of the FIRST places I'd have gone out once I worked up the courage to go out - because once you have the complete "package" your confidence goes up and you want to go out more. But since that'd be one of my first times out, I'd probably still very much look like a guy in a dress asking for makeup.

In other words, I'd go easy on them. Just like we say about telling our wives... we've had our whole lives in most cases to deal with and accept this. These makeup counter girls haven't. Their only experiences with CD'ers might be with those who are not very well practiced.

[luscious]

a girl says that real women giggle behind cd's and ts/tg backs.

I told them that the ones who are in steath mode do not get the giggles because they look better then you.

most TS that have the $$$$$$ to get surgery like ffs and take hormones or and get castrated look better then the average women becasue they take the time and care to.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?180705

[Michaela42]

one person does not represent a group. Your sample size is just too small to make the conclusion you have drawn. This ONE person has these feelings but that is no reason to give up the ghost.

Exactly! However, my cynical side would like to say that there are more SA's that will be nice and then talk about you behind your back. Maybe I am right, maybe I am wrong. Who cares! Some people will ALWAYS be narrow minded - you are wasting your time and energy trying to change them or convince them otherwise.

[ReineD]

Exactly! However, my cynical side would like to say that there are more SA's that will be nice and then talk about you behind your back. Maybe I am right, maybe I am wrong. Who cares! Some people will ALWAYS be narrow minded - you are wasting your time and energy trying to change them or convince them otherwise.

Here's my take on this:

SAs likely talk about the CDers after they leave, but not necessarily in a disparaging way. The truth is, there are not too many birth males who go around presenting fully as women (or in a feminine manner) and wanting makeovers, so the novelty alone is cause for comment, even if the comments are not judgmental. Some of these SA's will be more OK with the concept than others, depending on her age, her open-mindedness, etc. Probably only a few will have strong enough feelings to make strong negative comments and again, this would depend on their upbringing. Are they ultra conservative and homophobic?

Most people are fine with differences in presentation, as long as it is at arms' length. This has been my SO's and my experience. They're fine with it, because CDers really have no impact on their lives and so they can maintain a friendly distance. But, if their own boyfriends, husbands, sons, brothers, etc were to come out trans, these SA's would have similar attitudes as the wives here. Some would be tolerant, some would accept, and some would outright reject the CDing if it was in their own backyards.

[Sarasometimes]

Just when we start to lump others into groups with similar views (stereotyping, I'm guilty too) I go and make an appointment with a makeup artist who I haven't been to in over a year. She is very busy but she replies that next week she has time. I agree and ask if her price is the same($60/hr). Her reply was "My prices will never go up for you, Sara:))." Now FYI she works in TV and print media.

[CynthiaD]

In my experience it doesn't matter whether you are crossdressing or not. Some people will like you and some people won't. It doesn't matter. What matters is, do you like yourself? If you do, then to h*** with the ones who don't. I've been laughed at more than once when dressed. I just look them in the eye and smile.

I've also had people make fun of me when I've told a cashier that she'd rung my order up wrong. Should I feel guilty and ashamed because I can do arithmetic?

It takes courage to be who you are. Especially when some people look down at you because of it. Be proud of who you are, and be proud of your courage. Then it won't matter if some people think you're ugly or weird.

Oh, and by the way, I think you're beautiful.