She does Pass

[Tara D. Rose]

I remember a thread about 2 months ago, where the discussion was about passing. I feel in my opinion that this girl would pass hands down every time anywhere. I have looked at many of her images and videos a few months ago and have just revisited several of her youtube vids. She was disqualified from Rupauls drag race season #4.
The link below shows just one of her videos. If you have the time, check out the rest of her videos. If she isn't passing, well, I just don't know what is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfWeBYd7rkQ

[Kathi Lake]

She definitely passes as a drag queen.

Kathi

[Leslie Langford]

This is like comparing apples to oranges.

Willam is a well-known female impersonator/drag queen who has begun to take hormones. He is also in a gay relationship with a male partner. No doubt, a full MTF transition is only a matter of time for him. In other words, not exactly your garden-variety crossdresser...

[Badtranny]

I love drag queens and I love RuPaul's drag race.

Willam is one of my favorites but that is a drag queen video no doubt about it. A Kai Kai is sex between two drag queens. I don't know anything about Willam other than what I saw on Drag Race and if she does plan to transition then I wish her the best but that video isn't very convincing.

At any rate, I'm a fan of hers no matter how she identifies or presents. I think she's hilarious and totally hot. (for the record I don't find DQ's sexually exciting in the least bit, I'd rather be with a woman and I think we all know how I feel about that) ;-)

[Deedee Skyblue]

I don't feel as if I am imitating or copying the behavior of anyone, any more than one girl is imitating or copying the behavior of another girl when both are wearing skirts at the same time. From the universe of clothes available to me I choose to wear some items of women's clothes - not to imitate a woman, but because I enjoy wearing these things. I choose to act a certain way, not to copy someone but to express myself. So, no, I don't think that all those who CD are female impersonators.

Deedee :contemplating:

[Angela Campbell]

I watched the video.....no she does not pass...not even a little bit.

[Sarasometimes]

I saw a drag queen video in your link not a passable TG. Do you have a video of william dressed in average GG clothes and makeup? I agree that some metabolic changes are afoot with apparent breast growth. Many members here seem to pass better to me than what I just saw! I once read that the motivation of some to do drag is actual out of a dislike for women so they overdue it and make it a satire! I have a real interest in seeing myself in drag makeup but nothing beyond curiousity.

[Badtranny]

Funny story, when I decided I wanted to try "drag" and before I found this site, I spent all day walking around the Castro looking for a "drag queen shop". I eventually walked into this one little clothing shop (I think it's called Latour for Men and Men now) and straight up asked the guy behind the counter where the drag queens shopped. He said he didn't know, but he's surprised there's no real place for that kind of thing. I said I was thinking about doing it and he said "why would you want to do that?" That ended my day but since then I have a much better feel for the city and a much better sense of drag queen culture. It happens when you think you're a gay dude.


Drag Queens do not have to be passable to be successful, in fact passability was never really part of the effort. It was only recently (post RuPaul) that the girls began to prize being "fishy" above a lot of other things that used to be DQ staples like Comedy and Lip Synching.

Cross dressing is way different since they are predominately straight or at least tend to eschew the gay community. A straight DQ is very rare indeed. Every Drag Queen I have ever met is very very gay, and fabulous. ;-)

[kimdl93]

Obviously, its a drag queen video. The ladies are pretty hot - in an over the top, drag queen style, but passing isn't the word I'd use. I don't think either is aiming for that in the video, and perhaps not in real life for that matter.

[Jenniferathome]

Very Drag Queenish to me. In fact, any woman wearing that much facial makeup would look odd anywhere other than some dance club in a major city. It's that look that makes him "unpassable". I am sure he could tone it down and likely not get a second,look but Drag Queens don't "tone down" they are over the top on purpose. In fact, they are not trying to pass as anything other than a drag queen.

[Beverley Sims]

She definitely passes as a drag queen.
Kathi

I totally agree with you Kathi.
If I saw her in the street Drag Queen.
Nothing wrong with that.
I did mime on stage and looked like a GG.
The drag queen look won the night.

[docrobbysherry]

Yeah, she could totally pass! At nite in a room with no lites on. As long as she stayed silent!

[CassandraSmith]

To me, that's not passing exactly as passing for me isn't about attractting attention. I do like the whole glam thing though; however, the I'm lazy and the work involved is probably too much for me... and I'm a little too along in years to make that scene too.

I think of Mellissa's (Badtranny) avatar as a passing look. She just has a natural athletic appearance somewhat of a tomboy but totally feminine. A couple others here are very very passable too in that you'd have to take a second look to really realize their birth gender.


Cassy

[famousunknown]

If she isn't passing, well, I just don't know what is.

You're kidding, Right?

[stephNE]

I used too work in Washington DC, very close to Dupont Circle. At lunch we frequently ate in restaurants along side drag queens/trannys/crossdressers. There was one fellow I worked with who was openly gay. He used to criticize the "girls" we saw. I remember him saying "why would you want to do that" and snerl up his nose as if it was reallt gross to him. As I wanted to not come out to my coworkers, I just kept quite, but really I wanted to go over and talk to the "girls".

[ReineD]

I also think it's a Drag Queen look vs. passing as a woman. If you think of the elaborate stage makeup as a female mask, anyone wearing it would give female cues, but she still has that little something about her features that says Drag Queen to me, as opposed to a Vegas show girl who wears similar makeup. I don't know what it is ... the angularity of some of her features maybe. Or, maybe I see a guy underneath because I've seen pictures of him without the makeup.

She's very good though. I enjoy her videos.

[Tara D. Rose]

Check out these pics of her. Are these not passing?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552341088/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552338634/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dannycasillas/5831817804/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabbiesinclair/7588827626/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61751767@N02/8361921064/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/goalbert/8096173106/

[LilSissyStevie]

I first saw Willam in the transploitation film Ticked Off Trannies With Knives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrWT1a1_ta4). It's the absolute worst movie ever made. I couldn't stop laughing. :heehee: I'm probably the only one here that would rather be a drag queen than a woman. In fact, I know women that would rather be drag queens. I guess you can be a straight DQ in theory, but it's just not the same. My next life, I'm coming back gay.:daydreaming:

[IngeInCO]

She looks great! But too Drag for me. Definitely would not pass, unless at a club. If she walked into Target... Tagged.

[darla_g]

I have always thought of drag queens as being a caricature of a woman. As if you took all the parts you noticed be it hair, makeup or mannerisms and just exaggerated all of these. The title was maybe a bit misleading though because this site is always talking about "passing" as if it is the holy grail. Passing seems to be just blending in, not good not bad. This definitely was not that.

That being said I did enjoy the video.

[famousunknown]

Check out these pics of her. Are these not passing?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552341088/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552338634/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dannycasillas/5831817804/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabbiesinclair/7588827626/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61751767@N02/8361921064/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/goalbert/8096173106/

Passing as what? That's not passing. That's a drag queen. period.

[Catherine Hopkins]

Check out these pics of her. Are these not passing?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552341088/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552338634/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dannycasillas/5831817804/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabbiesinclair/7588827626/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61751767@N02/8361921064/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/goalbert/8096173106/

I'd say no. Again, she can pass as a drag queen but doesn't remotely pass as a woman.

[Frank]

Great Video thank you for sharing. If only I was that thin.

[ReineD]

Still a no for me, especially when you see her naked torso. Way too much makeup and hair, although she is very pretty.

[MsJanessa]

Check out these pics of her. Are these not passing?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552341088/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552338634/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dannycasillas/5831817804/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabbiesinclair/7588827626/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61751767@N02/8361921064/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/goalbert/8096173106/

ahh you are confusing looking hot and sexy with passing--seeing the photos, she is really attractive but you can see she is not a GG---stands out way too much. That said, there is nothing wrong with looking like a hot and sexy drag queen, or cross dresser, or TG or even a GG

[MsJanessa]

I first saw Willam in the transploitation film Ticked Off Trannies With Knives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrWT1a1_ta4). It's the absolute worst movie ever made. I couldn't stop laughing. :heehee: I'm probably the only one here that would rather be a drag queen than a woman. In fact, I know women that would rather be drag queens. I guess you can be a straight DQ in theory, but it's just not the same. My next life, I'm coming back gay.:daydreaming:

no you aren't the only one here who would rather be a DQ than a GG--I feel the same way

[ReineD]

... I still like to look attractive, although maybe not so hot and sexy at my age (in my 50s lol). But, there's a difference between how we look when we look our best, and how William Belli looks. Don't forget that you're also looking at stage makeup seen on a youtube video or a picture, which is two-dimentional. If she was standing in front of you made up like that, you likely would not think that she passed either.

Just before my SO started to go out in the mainstream, she went to the Be All conference in Chicago. She got a makeover & professional photo shoot there that really, and I mean REALLY transformed her looks. My SO is attractive, but in those pictures she looked downright delectable! Not a wrinkle, not a hair out of place, perfect, professional makeup. Her eyes were bigger, her lips were fuller, her cheekbones were well defined, her skin was perfect, the hair was "big", etc. I asked her if she would like to have the skills to look like that all the time and she said h*ll no. She said it was fun to have the experience, but there was no way she could ever go out in the mainstream looking like that and be taken seriously. No one can with stage makeup and big wigs.

[Caroline C]

The videos are a bit opulent but if you have the chance look for her in a bit part in a movie called Barry Munday. Now THAT is passing and it's actually a cute little movie. I would agree Ticked-Off Trannies with Knives was a pretty bad try at a Quentin Tarantino style movie.

[darla_g]

Its probably the objective to look hot and sexy but doesn't always turn out that way. I remember after one particularly unsuccessful session I ended up looking like my one aunt, not the look i was going for.

[MsJanessa]

absolutely I want to look hot and sexy---but when I go for that look, I know that I'm likely to attract attention and when I attract attention, I and the vast majority of CDs, are less likely to pass then when we put on our mom jeans, flats, and plain jane tops to hang around the mall. I guess I would rather be thought of as a hot and sexy cross dresser then a plain and drab GG

[Badtranny]

There are a gazillion CD's who would give a teste to look like her but most of the active CD girls are really shooting for something different. Why? I can't say that I know. I'm on record as not understanding why straight guys cross-dress but I can say for sure that drag queens cross dress for different reasons than most all of the members that have ever posted here. They don't do it to pass or blend. They don't do it for fetish reasons. They don't do it because it turns them on. They do it because they have a decidedly feminine aspect of their personality that they enjoy exploiting for the sake of performance. There are always exceptions but the average DQ does not sit around the house in drag and they certainly aren't in the closet about who they are.

[suzy1]

Drag queen, passing, passing, drag queen, bla bla bla…………..

All I know is, I wished I could look like that Tara. Then even I would go out dressed!!!!!!!:heehee:

[And anyone that says she “doesn’t remotely pass as a woman” should get a new prescription for their glasses]

[Sophie_C]

Check out these pics of her. Are these not passing?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552341088/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16923958@N03/7552338634/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dannycasillas/5831817804/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gabbiesinclair/7588827626/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61751767@N02/8361921064/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/goalbert/8096173106/

Tara, look, I know way too much about everything with us, and even with them. DQs, in their performances, are quite traditional, going for a very much "over the top" look which is done in a really specific way (seriously plastered on makeup, WHITE eyeshadow for no apparent reason, hair and dresses like they were a 60s showgirl, giant fake eyelashes, etc). Clearly she toned it down a bit, but she still did what was expected of her.

No women wear makeup and dress like this. In fact, if women get too close, they're sometimes even called a "hot tranny mess" as it's clear they took it too far that way. You can wear a lot of makeup, but it's really an art when it comes to that level. It's not just a gigantic amount with big hair and big makeup. It's subtle, sexy, flirty, classy, and more things, all in one.

Now, I don't know what you're looking for in this. I'd say that pretty much 100% of girls who truly 'pass', no matter how hard they've worked their bodies at the gym, have been on HRT for a while, possibly with some FFS, depending on genes and their age. A number of DQs these days actually are TG women who use it as a way to make a steady living and have had breast implants, HRT, etc. And, some even grow out of it, like Carmen Carrera, who has now pretty much transitioned. That might be confusing you a bit.

[CassandraSmith]

Drag queen, passing, passing, drag queen, bla bla bla…………..

All I know is, I wished I could look like that Tara. Then even I would go out dressed!!!!!!!:heehee:

[And anyone that says she “doesn’t remotely pass as a woman” should get a new prescription for their glasses]

I concur.

BTW, I don't have any problem with drag queens either. In fact, I'd love it if they were in the store because then, no one would even notice me in a dress then.

[ReluctantDebutant]

This Will is a very passable look and would probably be more convincing with a different style of makeup.

This discussion has brought to mind the question I've always had. Are cross-dressers and transgendered just able to spot other cross-dressers and transgendered better than the non-CDers/TG?

Last week I was flipping through channels and came across a reality show the "Stars" were in a DRAG themed restaurant and one of the guys, who looked like he knew his way around a real woman was honestly amazed and shocked that every member of the wait staff was in fact a man in drag. These drag queens fell far short of William's caliber. I was confused how someone could be so confused but seen this happen before. Do cross-dressers by the fact of being cross-dressers have a better eye for spotting other cross-dressers? Do cross-dressers who feel they don't pass actually passing much better in the general public than they think? This may be the source of the disagreement as to whether William is passing or not. Just a thought.

[Eryn]

Folks, people responding to a thread are not bound by a requirement to answer only the specific question asked. If they wish to discuss the question, explore other ramifications, etc. that is part of the function of a forum.

Let's not take offense at things simply because there is disagreement.

[lingerieLiz]

As a drag queen the video was OK. As for passing as a woman? I don't think he would. Maybe other videos would show him more fem. He has a lot of male features. I've seen CDers with much finer features that do pass.

[docrobbysherry]

This is so beautifully stated, Janessa! But, it may have slipped by those involved in the discussion because they may not be CD's that care to look, "hot and sexy". So, it went rite over their heads. I happen to be one that does! Altho Sherry can pass in some of my pics, I have zero chance of passing in person.:sad:

So, I have 2 LOUSY options when I go out. Dress as a blending granny, (which I hate), or go out as Sherry and scare the crap out of everyone! Not what I'm about either.:eek:

If I could go out and look as fem as Eryn does, I would go out a lot more. But, that's not an option for me. And, may not be for Willam either.:thumbsdn:


absolutely I want to look hot and sexy---but when I go for that look, I know that I'm likely to attract attention and when I attract attention, I and the vast majority of CDs, are less likely to pass then when we put on our mom jeans, flats, and plain jane tops to hang around the mall. I guess I would rather be thought of as a hot and sexy cross dresser then a plain and drab GG

Let me explain this in a way everyone can understand: We have mirrors!:daydreaming:

RE:"I'm on record as not understanding why straight guys cross-dress.": MANY on here have proclaimed they do not understand it themselves."

[Kelly Smith]

If she isn't passing, well, I just don't know what is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfWeBYd7rkQ
Tara, I agree with the crowd that Williams's stage presentation is too extreme to pass, but I think you have a point underlying your statement that is valid. If William chose to, he could make some adjustments and pass with kind of a Madeline Khan/Bernadette Peters look.

Fun vid. Thanks for posting it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

William does not pass..
not even close...not even trying to pass....

Looks sexy and great..and its easy to see she looks more female than most drag queens...

tara, you can't convince people that they should like the same music as you, you can just play it, enjoy it, and let them decide what they think...same thing here...

[DonniDarkness]

here we go with that "passing "word again.

The word itself holds many different definitions for many people. The idea of it is based on your personal perspective of femininity. For most here it is this holy grail of a perfect representation of femininity. Voice, body language, body type, facial features, (ect, you all get the point.)

To me the whole idea of it is ludicrous...and not what passing is about to me. My idea of passing is being comfortable enough with yourself that you dont give a damn about being the perfect storm of femininity. Its about being yourself and having the self confidence to rock whatever look you want, where ever you want.

I think Willam passes well. Her confidence is great, her style is awesome, and she has a bright enough personality to pull of Sexy and Provocative.

This holy grail of passing is a fools notion to me. No matter how far we transition our lives as TG people we will always be Trans*........

Stop chasing what doesnt exist,
-Donni-

[ReineD]

Maybe people are confusing being attractive with "passing"?

William Belli has an attractive face, no matter how he presents. Cheekbones are cheekbones. Look at him in guy mode - he's gorgeous!

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTcxNjI1MTU2OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzY4NTgyMw@@._ V1._SX214_CR0,0,214,314_.jpg

His eyes are beautifully shaped, he's got gorgeous cheek definition and jaw line, his lips are sexy. In short, he is appealing to women! :) So it stands to reason that if you put makeup and a wig on a man who has excellent facial proportions and features and who is handsome, he will look equally attractive in female mode.

Is this "passing", or is it just having an attractive and sexy face?

[Jenniferathome]

... So it stands to reason that if you put makeup and a wig on a man who has excellent facial proportions and features and who is handsome, he will look equally attractive in female mode....

THIS is exactly what my wife says.

[ReineD]

THIS is exactly what my wife says.

Maybe some men (or at least younger men) train themselves to not notice or be able to see attractiveness in another man's face. I know that when I ask one of my sons what a guy looks like, he'll quickly say, "How should I know?" lol.

[DonniDarkness]

Maybe people are confusing being attractive with "passing"?I would be more inclined to say that people hold too much stock in how others perceive them as a binary creature.

Willam is handsome as a guy and pretty when in drag. He passes because it is his aim to be a Drag Queen. Being good looking helps, but it would be less believable if he did not have confidence to rock who he is.

Passing is about being confident in expressing who you are. It is not about falling into a stereotypical societal view of what women are perceived as.

Our boards general consensus of what passing is defined as, is just based on a "Finishing School for girls" type of context. Proper, Pinkies extended, and Ladylike.

<blech>

If thats "passing" you can have it, ill just stick to being myself and being confident. It seems like the whole idea of passing is just another way to reaffirm feelings of "not fitting in". You dont have to be like everyone else to be accepted, you just need confidence in yourself.

-Donni-

PS

no you aren't the only one here who would rather be a DQ than a GG--I feel the same way Me too. For some reason the notion "of trying to be who someone else perceives i should be" goes against the grain of my core being.

[NCAmazon]

Maybe people are confusing being attractive with "passing"?

William Belli has an attractive face, no matter how he presents. Cheekbones are cheekbones. Look at him in guy mode - he's gorgeous!

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTcxNjI1MTU2OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNzY4NTgyMw@@._ V1._SX214_CR0,0,214,314_.jpg

His eyes are beautifully shaped, he's got gorgeous cheek definition and jaw line, his lips are sexy. In short, he is appealing to women! :) So it stands to reason that if you put makeup and a wig on a man who has excellent facial proportions and features and who is handsome, he will look equally attractive in female mode.

Is this "passing", or is it just having an attractive and sexy face?

Well even though he doesn't go for the passing look in drag. The soft boyish facial features he has will make him look very passable to many if he decides to dress up and do a normal woman look with lighter makeup. But he still has a bit of a muscular physique.

[Julogden]

I think Willam can be passable if she wants to, and looks passable in one of the photos you linked to, but in the video and the rest of the photos, no way, she is looking like a drag queen to me too.

Carol

[Miranda09]

Drag queen, passing, passing, drag queen, bla bla bla…………..

All I know is, I wished I could look like that Tara. Then even I would go out dressed!!!!!!!:heehee:

[And anyone that says she “doesn’t remotely pass as a woman” should get a new prescription for their glasses]

I agree with Suzy here. While I wasn't too impressed with the video, her photo shoots look fantastic. I don't think she looks overly made up, and she has a wonderful smile. In fact, there are many women who like to wear makeup like she has here...just walk into any Ulta store. Not every woman goes with the simple, bare makeup look. If I had her build, I would be out more often! :)

[BillieJoEllen]

Yeah, she could totally pass! At nite in a room with no lites on. As long as she stayed silent!

And it must be midnight on a cloudy moonless night!

[suchacutie]

The problem with any "passing" thread is that how one looks in a photo is just the very beginning of what it means to move in the real world presenting as a woman. Willam Belli certainly has the potential to pass muster on the "looks" level. After all, there are venues for "dressing to the nines" and I don't have a doubt that Willam would fit right in at Sardi's on Sat. night after the shows let out (not showing quite that much skin, however).

The real test comes when one talks, moves, uses the expected mannerisms, and gives off all the feminine cues that GGs do so naturally. We can't tell all of that from a "drag" video and from stills. Invite her over to dinner in jeans and a T-shirt (okok, a skirt and a nice top for Karren) and see how it goes...:)

[KateSpade83]

He's clearly a drag queen and he doesn't pass... He has a MALE facial structure which easily gets him read.

[Nicole Brown]

Very, very interesting responses to a very highly debated, ago old question. IMHO, a DQ is one entity while the desire to 'pass', gosh how I hate that word, is totally another. A DQ is usually identified by too much makeup, too much hair and in general just too much of nearly everything. Now don't get me wrong, some DQs are absolutely gorgeous, but their presentation is not true to real life and in most instances would not be mistaken for a GG.

When I first began to dress, I looked more like a DQ than I did your average looking woman. This was due to my not understanding how I appeared to others and my disillusionment with my appearance. Over the years, as I grew to dislike the term passing, I discovered that in order to appear as a woman, and more importantly to be accepted as a woman, you must copy or imitate woman. I also learned the truly important expression that 'less is more'.

This belief is totally opposite to the 'more is not enough' attitude of many DQs. As I matured and my need to present as a woman developed into my need to be a woman, my desire to be identified as and treated as a woman evolved and grew.

Take a look around and observe the average woman at the mall, or at the supermarket or even at the outlet center. They are not wearing 4" heels and dresses, they aren't even wearing makeup for the most part. If you want to appear as a DQ, just go shopping at an outlet center in heels, a dress and fully made up and you will receive all of the attention you don't want. Now, wear a pair of flats, jeans and minimal makeup with your hair tied back in a ponytail and you blend right in, and look like a woman.

This is not to say that woman don't get dressed up when appropriate. Last week while visiting my daughter in Oregon, we went out on Saturday evening to a show and then to a fancy restaurant for dinner and we were both dressed to the nines. I was wearing a short black cowl necked sweater dress with 4" black slingbacks and black hose, full makeup and my hair tease up and out. A real DQ look you might say, and I might agree, except that I was one of the less fancy dressed woman that evening.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a time and place for most everything. If you over due your attire and makeup all of the time you will never fit in. On the other hand, if you change your attire and makeup to match your surroundings, you will blend in much more readily and be more likely to be seen and accepted as a woman, what you call passing.

[DonniDarkness]

Blending in is not the aim of a Drag Diva.

So much talk of trying to blend in so that no one notices your a MtF Diva, But thats not the point for a queen. Its about expression....not about watering down your creativity or fashion until you look like Jane Doe.

-Donni-

[BlairP]

This is like comparing apples to oranges.

Willam is a well-known female impersonator/drag queen who has begun to take hormones. He is also in a gay relationship with a male partner. No doubt, a full MTF transition is only a matter of time for him. In other words, not exactly your garden-variety crossdresser...

I know Willam (he doesnt know me as my female self) and he is a lovely and dainty and feminine looking boy. He has an amazing array of looks and you cant tell by the drag race show alone what he is like. Its Television. I know he is in a relationship with a man but I didnt know he was taking hormones. Are you sure about that?

Trust me, he could easily pass if he wanted to.

[Badtranny]

Trust me, he could easily pass if he wanted to.

Great input. I love it.