Ever felt this way?

[Sarahgurl371]

OK, recent disscusions here and at home have forced me to think, and ask what it is I am looking for.

Have you ever felt that the whole acceptance non acceptance issue, has nothing to do with the clothes?

I thought all this CD stuf was about actually wearing the clothes of the other sex. I must agree that it is the outward manifestation of those internal thoughts and desires. But in the end, the clothes are just props.:eek:

Now stay with me here. In the begining, I thought what I desired was to be able to dress up in front of my wife, and yes, even be intimate that way. And while that is still a desire of mine. My true desire is to just be myself. I just want to not have to hide who I am. Recently we have been on the verge of divorce. The verge because I have decided that i am worthy of love just the way I am, and am having difficulty resolving the fact that she doesn't love me for who I am, but rather who she wants me to be.

Last night, she wanted know when we might be intimate again. Now its no secret that when couples are on the verge of a break up, that usually the intimacy both physical and emotional are gone. For me they both tend to blend together, and one is required for the other to be present. Further proof that I am not a "normal" guy? Physical intimacy has always required emotional intimacy for me. Anyone else? Do you think that we are different form "normal" guys in that respect? MAybe the GG's here have some valuable imput on that one, since they have known "normal" guys, and us as well.

My response was, how can you expect me to be intimate with you, when you do not accept who I am, I think I should respect myself a little bit more than that. I guess thats where I was going on a recent thread about living with an unaccepting spouse. Although I think I got sidetracked.

The concern for me isn't that I can only DRESS when she isn't home. I've done that my whole life. My concern is that how can we survive this now that I have beared all to her, and she doesn't even like who I am as a person? How can i be intimate with a person with whom I have to hide who I am? She has stated so many times now that she feels as though she is with a women when we are together sexually, and that she doesn't enjoy it at all. Whether I am dresssed or not BTW, As I haven't dressed in front of her for some time now. I guess its my personallity comming thru.

So is it the chance to wear the clothes, or the chance to be ourselves that we desire so much? I am either moving forward with this all, or am so confused by the constant questioning that i am moving backwards. What say you?

[sara_also]

Tammy, I agree with your thinking regarding loving and being loved by another peson. The whole person. I spent many years in a platonic relationship which finaly ended as her choice. I was not a crossdresser at the time so that had nothig to do with it. What had everything to do with it was just that she did not like me as a person. No matter what I did, it was wrong.
I have now found the most wonderful wife in the world, and she loves me for who I am. Clothes again have nothing to do with it. She accepts my dressing, but also accepts everything else about me. I also accept everything that she is. I believe there are many among us that are not living truthful lives. Nothing related to dressing, but everyday living. There is nothing greater to me than never having to lie,fib,or omit any feelings or happenings on a day to day basis.
Tammy I wish you all the happiness in your future that is possible.
Sara

[Lilith Moon]

Have you ever felt that the whole acceptance non acceptance issue, has nothing to do with the clothes?

My wife would not walk out if I dressed, she has said so. But she does not accept my dressing. I can dress any time I wish, she says, so long as I don't expect any involvement from her. But this is not enough for me. I need some measure of acceptance...even a hint would help. As a consequence, I just cannot bring myself to dress when she is around...which is 99% of the time. This is leading to an unhealthy relationship where I am counting down the time to her next outing and I start dressing as soon as she closes the door.


Physical intimacy has always required emotional intimacy for me. Anyone else? Do you think that we are different form "normal" guys in that respect?


For me, absolutely. While we still have our intimate times, they are few and far between and always at her instigation. I feel rejected by her and that makes it very difficult for me to be intimate. I have tried to explain this to her many times and she simply twists this around into an "emotional blackmail" thing. Apparently, I am punishing her because she will not accept my CDing.

In fact, she could be comforted by this emotional trait...I would never have a purely physical relationship with anybody else. Hookers and one night stands would be impossible for me.




So is it the chance to wear the clothes, or the chance to be ourselves that we desire so much?

The chance to be myself...which includes wearing the clothes...and the chance to be loved as I really am.

[Katie Ashe]

I have so much to say, most would not even stay a wake. So let me sum up.

Realtionships need give and take. You both have needs and dreams. You both need to agree, to disagree first, then work together to find a common platform to work on. Relationships always need work, it's a full time job worse than raising a baby !!! Yes you are right to need to feel accepted but you need to understand her feelings also. For ex: If she puts her foot down and says forget it, I won't listen. Then you need to move on, maybe. I'm not familiar with your relationship with her, but it's always about give and take.

Know what I mean???

Best wishes, Katie

[sherri]

My response was, how can you expect me to be intimate with you, when you do not accept who I am, I think I should respect myself a little bit more than that.
You know Tammy, I empathize with your desire for total acceptance, I really do. That is my dream too. I gotta tell ya though, if you're withholding love and sex from your wife because she doesn't like to have sex with a man in drag, I have a hard time having any sympathy for you. The only chance you have of winning her acceptance is by loving her, by being the mate you promised to be, by being patient.

By the way, you know of course that if she leaves you, your chances of finding someone who is into your CDing are about like those of winning the lottery. You realize that, right?


My concern is that how can we survive this now that I have beared all to her, and she doesn't even like who I am as a person? ... How can i be intimate with a person with whom I have to hide who I am?
Setting aside the matter of gender expression, does she like you as a person? Are you saying crossdressing totally defines who you are? It's the alpha and omega of your personality, your character, your mind and your soul?

[Sarahgurl371]

Katie,
I absolutley agree about give and take. Problem is that our relationship has always been defined by my gibing and her taking. Now while I am not opposed to giving everything I can in a relationship, at some point, you have to get something back don't you? This has become the one thing that I won't yield to her wishes on. Do not misunderstand, I have in the past and am willing in the future to compromise. I relaize i cannot have it my why all the time, perhaps not even half the time, but once in a while?

Sherri,
I am not witholding love and sex from my wife. I absolutley want to give love, and have great sex as well. It is essential to a healthy relationship. I also did not mean having sex while dressed in this post. (althought it would be nice) What i meant was that the emotional connection is pretty important to me, and I do not feel like being physically intimate when not accepted for who I am. Its kinda like the shoe is on the other foot. Wouldn't I be a schmuck if all i wanted from her was a sexual encounter, and did not care for or consider her feelings? As far as a lover, I have always gone the extra mile to consider and care for her wants and desires. When does it get to be my turn, and if that were to happen, I couldn't feel comfortable anyway because of all this. So I probably wouldn't even take the opportunity, out of my feelings now, and certainlly out of concern for hers.

I have never stopped being the husband I promised to be. I do not recall any expression of gender in our vows, now they may be implied, but I have not broken my vows. I have always done my best as her husband, "Husband" has been what defines me for so long now.

As far as setting aside gender questions, does she like me? I don't know. While crossdressing does not define me, it is a lot more important than say motorcycles, and or other type hobbies. If i have come to accept my unique gender traits as inherent to me, how can I seperate them out of the whole? Maybe it just feels so important because of all the friction it has created in our lives latley? But if it were not important to me, wouldn't I have just quit by now. I think this has become a battle of wills at this point.

[CharleneCD]

Tammy, this is a hard one to respond to. I can understand your feelings. Emotional distress in a relationship affects me the same way. As for how to handle your situation I am not sure what to say as I dont have all the information, But I will toss some stuff out and you can see if it fits.

You say you can dress when she is not around. This is a whole lot better than her saying I dont want you to dress at all. In my view this could lead to more future acceptance. Some members here have continued relationships like this for years. If you love her this might be something to think about. Also it may not truely be that she doesnt accept you for who you are, but that she is having trouble with how she is seeing it and handleing it within her own mind. In the bedroom my wife is the same as yours. Sex does not happen when I'm dressed. This is where the give and take that Katie Ashe mentioned comes in. My wife supports me in my dressing so I respect her enough not to force the bedroom issue. If your wife is having trouble with sex because she see's you as fem even though you havnt dressed in front of her in a bit, It makes me wonder if you aren't dressing more fem than you realize. My wife and I had the same issue and went to a therapist. I didn't see myself as dressing fem all that much but when the therapist started pointing out all the fem things I had attached to my daily drab, I realized I was alot more fem than I had thought. the answer was to give my wife her drab time. That is the way she married me so I can accept that she needs me completely male sometimes. Sorry if I rambled a bit. Not sure if this helps you, but this is how it works for me.

[Sarahgurl371]

Charlene,
I know that having her permission to dress when she is not home is a lot better than some have it. Maybe I am just a fanatic. I just can't comprehend how it can be OK to do it while alone, but she still doesn't accept? That didn't come out right at all. Besides that fact that I just want to share myself and not be alone.

I hope I certainlly don't dress femme even en drab, its usually Levis' and a T-shirt, as i am into alot of things were I get dirty and don't want to ruin any good clothes. (male or female) I just think that she can see who I am, and She can see the girl within, hence the remarks that even during intimacy while totally drab or naked, she feels as though she is with a girl. Pretty tough thinking that i look femme even naked, pretty hairy body....Yuck! Which I have deliberately have not shaved because of her feelings. Hope thats not too much information! Just trying to evaluate it from all sides.

[sherri]

Last night, she wanted know when we might be intimate again. Now its no secret that when couples are on the verge of a break up, that usually the intimacy both physical and emotional are gone. For me they both tend to blend together, and one is required for the other to be present. Further proof that I am not a "normal" guy? Physical intimacy has always required emotional intimacy for me.
The above quote is what made me think maybe you were withholding affection. Sounds like she thinks you're holding out.

Know why I think this is such a big deal? Because I'm just like you - when there is bad kharma between us, it is difficult for me to be intimate. (And yes, that is stereotypically abnormal for our gender.) And guess what? I'm divorced. That is a very dangerous game to play ... and in her mind, I don't doubt that the absence of affection is further proof that your "obsession" is damaging to your relationship with her. I'm not attacking you darlin, just trying to get you to see it through her eyes. Sounds to me like your marriage is at stake.

Maybe you've come to the point where you're thinking that you'd be just as well off divorced. After all, you'd get to dress whenever you want, right? But there is no greener pasture out there. I hope you know that. This acceptance and intimacy that you're demanding - it is a very rare thing, so rare as to be almost non-existent. You have better odds of finding a black pearl in the middle of the desert.

I'll leave you alone about this now. Just wanted to fire a shot across your bow - devil's advocate, eyes wide open kind of thing. I really do feel your pain - yours and hers.

[Julie]

My ex told me she was accepting countless times. I told her she wasn't. She said I was wrong. But when it came to talking about it she would change the subject as soon as she could. If I asked her to go out with me she said no. When my kids saw me dressed she acted like I had the plague and soon divorced me.

There was exceptions though. We used to take weekends for me to dress. In 23 years we probably did that 5-10 times. I used to go to Tri-Ess meetings and she'd keep the kids preoccupied so I could get out of the house w/o them seeing me. She sat with me a few times while I put on makeup and got ready to go out. She even gave me makeup tips.

But never would she make love to me when fully dressed or do anything physically intimate including kissing me. She said she wasn't lesbian and had no desire to kiss a woman. I felt like she was rejecting a very real part of me. She thought I had a curable problem.

Being dressed gives me an inner peace and provides temporary relief from this internal battle that's waged inside all my life. Being accepted that way fills my heart with joy. Those who are blind to what I'm wearing know a person who is warm, kind, thoughtful and loving. Those who cannot accept this know a peson who is guarded and distant. It's unintentional. It's just how I feel. Everyone wants to be accepted completely.

My ex told me just before we divorced she felt I was a woman. Maybe that's so she could divorce me w/o guilt or blame but maybe she saw something in me that was very female. I do know however there were many times she told me I was different from most of the guys she's known and pointed out traits that are typically female. Maybe she finally saw them as such and freaked out. Whatever the case, I'll never again get involved with anyone who doesn't know and love all of me. Like you Tammy I have to be myself. I'm tired of trying to be what others want me to be.

[sherri]

I do know however there were many times she told me I was different from most of the guys she's known and pointed out traits that are typically female.

That's really interesting to me. Tammy said something about his wife perceiving him as female (an indication that maybe she's a tad unreasonable). I guess it depends on what they're referring to, but you'd think they might consider this a good thing. Geez, men have been getting bashed for a couple of decades now for being insensitive clods. As has often been stated on this forum, our feminine traits can in fact make us better mates in some pretty important ways. It just seems like there should be some common ground to meet on, some way to strike a balance if they could just get the fact that it's not all bad.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i once read a story by a "Karen miller??" i think...that was very honest about crossdressing, moreso than most of what i read...girls lets get real about ourselves...
1>)WE DESERVE TO BE LOVED FOR WHO WE ARE

but, as i'm painfully finding out our dressing bothers some people..i'm sorry but it's their right to "not accept" what we like to do..i don't like that, i don't really feel its fair...but who am i to tell another person how they should think..

now if you're like me, you didnt tell your wife when you got married..now i've told her and we are separating and i'd say most likely will divorce...we are still friends but that is getting more and more strained because i am getting more bitter how her not accepting me, and she is getting more and more bitter about me not telling her first...

i honestly see both sides, i always had best intentions, i didnt know much about crossdressing and it was pretty repressed during our courtship and early marraige...stress and turning 35, and boom i wanted to dress all the time and for 7 yrs i snuck around,,got addicted to surfing the internet for tranny pictures and stories and here i am...guilty as sin...probably losing my family...etc etc.. its very sad but i guess i'm just saying there are two sides

tammy has every right in the world to demand acceptance and i hope her wife understands and accepts tammy for everything tammy is EVERYTHING>>>good and bad!! but the reality is tammy's wife has free will and they both must work it out and deal with the consequences.. i know that marla and i and tammy have all posted about our troubles and many of you out there are quietly lurking with the same issues or maybe contemplating telling all!!!

i can't tell you how i WISH it were different and we could just say hey honey, i'm going out tonight were did you put my pantyhose!!!!and i know some of us are lucky to have that, but i hope everyone here is respectful of all points of view even those that we disagree with or ones that hurt our feelings..

there i said it

tammy- you know i'm rooting so hard for you

[Keri]

Tammy .. you state that "Husband" has been what defines you for so long now. I assume you state it that way to hilight that "Lover" is no longer the term she uses. Ah ... so many of the shared situations are so alike.

The permutations of what wives will/won't accept are astounding. My gal will accept anything AS LONG AS I never, ever am "exposed" and bring shame on her, her kids, her relatives, her fill-in-the-blank. Heck, most of my kids were conceived while I was enfemme, but I'd have been divorced in a second if I'd stepped out the door in no more than a skirt! Other GG's have their unique personal limits as well, so it's hard to make general statements on what one should or shouldn't say or do without really knowing both parties.

Going to a therapist will help find out WHY you and your lady think as you do, but won't change the fact that you do think that way (habituation is sooooo strong!). If you realize then that, for the reasons unearthed, that she CANNOT change, and that acceptance is that important to your relationship, then your choices become very limited. Co-existance is possible (ie: two CAN live cheaper than one, and we CAN keep others ignorant of our strife, and ..) but the passion will be gone and both might be tempted to "take their love to town".

Ah ... to be a simple un-emotional un-complex un-needful uni-sex being !!!

[Rachel Morley]

Physical intimacy has always required emotional intimacy for me. Anyone else?

Totally! Until I met Marla this was always a big problem in my (sex) life.
I'm not sure I can say anything to help but relationships should be built on truth, love and understanding, and this goes both ways.

Good luck Tammy....I feel for you.

[lydia7]

I am really loving this thread and the level of discussion. The construct of what we all were taught as childen (and sometimes saw in our fathers) was a generic and stereotypical one. Gender identity aside, we all want to have the freedom to be ourselves. Ironic considering we live in such a "free" society...Breaking the mold happens when more of us "become" who were feel we need to be, and are lucky to find more Marla GGs in the world ;) . You will find your freedom when your choice of clothing is not considered "cross" dressing at all. GG women have been the best at this struggle, redefining themselves and how the world should treat and view them. Solidarity and Courage will be the pillars of our way of life.

Okay, I am going to sit down again now...

[Helana]

Last night, she wanted know when we might be intimate again.
For me that is an obvious hint that she is saying she still loves you and is tired of fighting and wants to make up. While your response is good because you were completely honest, I think you missed an opportunity to be intimate but not necessarily involving sex - just have a good pillow talk and hold each other.


Physical intimacy has always required emotional intimacy for me. Anyone else? Do you think that we are different form "normal" guys in that respect? I am sure we do not have a monoploy on that, there are plenty of sensitive "normal" guys out there but then there are those.....well lets not go there.:(


How can i be intimate with a person with whom I have to hide who I am? She has stated so many times now that she feels as though she is with a women when we are together sexually, and that she doesn't enjoy it at all. Whether I am dresssed or not BTW, As I haven't dressed in front of her for some time now. I guess its my personallity comming thru. Thats a problem. She is not seeing you as you - but as either a man or a woman. She still does not understand that we are somewhere inbetween, one person, multi-gendered. Her perception of you may have changed but you are still the same person she has always known. Somehow you have to get the message across that you want her to love you as an individual and not be rigidly defined as a man or a woman.



So is it the chance to wear the clothes, or the chance to be ourselves that we desire so much? I am either moving forward with this all, or am so confused by the constant questioning that i am moving backwards. What say you? You will never move forward unless she resolves for herself to be openminded. On the otherhand you cannot expect her to take this in one go. It takes small, slow incremental steps to change people. Ask her to suggest new boundaries herself that go beyond that which you presently have. Hold to that for six months then review again.

Another suggestion is to ask for a new agreement - new private vows which nobody else knows about. If you ask her to take a difficult journey of exploration to push her boundaries further out in order that she can love all of you then what are you willing to do for her? This is not a question of giving things up but of giving more to each other. She may have dreams, fantasies and expectations which she has sacrificed herself when she married you. Something worth exploring.

[Kierci]

I have to agree with your thinking there, I am one who does not believe that a F@@@ is Just a F@@@. Many do but I have to have more than physical to get me fired up, so if I get to emotional feeling from her I can cure my own problem by the end of the night without her.

[RachelDenise]

Tammy, there are many of us who share your feelings and situation. I also believe that there needs to be an emotional attachment before intimacy happens. When there is no connection then it is hard to continue in a relationship. Nobody can judge your relationship without hearing the other side of it (your wife's). She may have a great difference of opinion but may noit be too far off from you. A therapist might be the mediator to save your marriage if that is truly what you want.

[Sarahgurl371]

Hey girlz, just wanted to write real quick, logged on to check out the posts, and you all are making some good points. Didn't get to read them all yet, and I gotta get dinner going for my wife will be home soon.

Sherri - its OK that you put a shot across my bow. Part of the wonderful thing that happens when people exchange ideas, is that sometimes they hear things they may not want too, or have not thought of themselves, your post that I read yesterday gave me some food for thought last night, thats never a bad thing.

[Sarahgurl371]

Thank you all for your well thought out responses. I appreciate them very much. I don't know if I can address all the ideas brought up or not, here goes...

I do believe we have a right to be ourselves. Its taken my years to gain the self confidence and self esteem to say that.

I have been a "husband" by my choice. I was raised that the husband should care for the wife, and protect her all that stuff, but, put her on a pedistal and get her everything she desires. My life has consisted of doing everything I can to satisfy her every desire. Sometimes of couse financial matters and such arise, but I would say that I am a very good "friend" and "husband". That is my choice. I guess I am just expecting the same amount of consideration for my feelings in return. Fact is, I have never felt so strongly about a personal matter in my life. AS far as co habitating, I don't know that I want to live the rest of my life not "in love". I don't want to settle. The thought that comes to mind is Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman when she turns down a kept life offered to her, because, she wants the fairy tale.

I know the grass isn't always greener. But the fact that I have Hope that it can be better, I just can't let that go. I'm just a hopless romantic I guess. If you guys tell anybody I said this stuff - I will deny it!

Angel - you are one lucky girl. Stories like yours and Marla's are what inspire me. Please don't feel guilty about that or anything. It is sure nice to know that the possiblity exists. Treat her like gold.

Helana - agian you always make an excellent point or two. Moving forward, thats the sticking pioint. I told her the other day when I was getting ready to move out. We are just spinning our wheels. I have made my decisions. I have dug deep and asked myself the tough questions. I think I have come up with some plausible answers. I have made the compromises. I have struggle to make new deals. I have given all I think I have left to give. In the end, if she doesn't want to open her mind, thats a deal breaker for me. I guess my problem is that I don't no if i can live with a person who when faced with evidence and information contrary to thier position, shuts down and refuses to learn. I did not say cahnges her opinion. Just learn. Just learn and see if your opinion might change.

Rachel - you are so right, there are always two sides. I have always said that I cannot argue with you unless I at least concede to see your side of the story.

Thanks again

[PennyAnne]

At this time I don't really feel comfortable enough here to talk about how my wife and I relate in detail.
That said, I do feel that as much as you try to be open, there are certain barriers that can not be overcome. Sort of core values of your partner.
The more I read here, the luckier I feel. It becomes more and more evident that my wife and I have a very very rare relationship. You see, in our case, it never was an issue of "acceptance". We are a couple. I am hers and she is mine. Not that we aren't individuals, just that neither of us can seem to visualize a life without each other.
When I think of what life might be like if, God forbid, something happens to her, I'm in a total panic.
From what I can tell, listening to others here, there are some problems that have no solutions.
Finding a modus vivendi is , in my opinion, a matter that involves more than a little luck.
Penny

[danielle65]

I think the emotional and physical connecdtion thing is definitely not a "normal guy" thing. That is most def your feminine side coming thru. Tell her you need love and respect before you can give your self to anyone!

[JennyCD]

Have you ever felt that the whole acceptance non acceptance issue, has nothing to do with the clothes?

Yes. It's more about who we are.




So is it the chance to wear the clothes, or the chance to be ourselves that we desire so much? I am either moving forward with this all, or am so confused by the constant questioning that i am moving backwards. What say you?

Personally, I feel that it's more about being and expressing who we really are than about the clothes. Although I have been purged for almost a year, I am still who I am. That isn't going to change. We are who we are, whether we or our SO likes it or not.

In a way I am lucky because I don't have an SO to complicate things, but totally understand how it is as I have decided that I won't have another SO without being upfront about who I am. I can't advise you as to how to handle things with your SO, that's far too personal and individual a situation, but I can say that no-one can be happy being anyone other than who they are.

[AnnaMaria]

I know that for me it is all about being able to be who I am no matter what I am wearing or not wearing. But I also realize that there are times when my wife just wants to see her husband and nothing more. At this point she is accepting and has been trying her best to learn about who I really am and how we can better relate to each other on a more intimate level. But there are still times when she unknowingly makes comments or jesturs that make me feel like she doesn't really like the whole me. Even though I know that she loves me for who I am it is still sometimes hard to resolve the internal struggle that rages from day to day.

All I know for sure is that without her at my side I would have never made my first trip out into the world dressed. And for that I am eternally greatful to her. I also realize that because of outside influences and family responsibilities I have at times lost touch with what it means to be married and that creates unnecessary stress in our relationship as well.

I guess what I am trying to say is that physical intimacy is nice but without the emotional factor included it is just not worth the effort. And without the emotional factor from both partners being equal there is no way that I could ever remain intimate with a person on that level for long.

But that is just me and how I feel about the situation. I would have to say that it sounds to me like the two of you need to sit down and talk about where the relationship is giong and ways that it could be saved "if" that is what you both "want". But it is going to take a commitment from both sides to make it work and both sides are giong to have to agree to work hard at the solution no matter what the difficulties are or it will never work out.

sorry to be so blunt about it but it's the only way I know to say what I really feel.

huggs
anna