Debunking: "I like women's clothes"

[ReineD]

We've had countless threads discussing why members crossdress, with a wide variety of answers, such as: it gives comfort, or it is relaxing, it brings joy, it is exciting, it brings happiness, I enjoy being feminine, I want to look beautiful, I hate the way I look as a guy, it is sexual, it is sensual, it makes me feel like myself, it feels normal for me, I have a degree of feminine identity ... and other reasons I'm sure I missed.

I can understand all of the above reasons, since they either describe deeper motives, or the payoff for dressing. They describe the feelings that individuals get when they dress and we all know that our behaviors are motivated by the prospect of a reward or a punishment. We tend to do things that feel good (eat, sleep, earn incomes, engage in hobbies, be altruistic and help others, crossdress, engage in other pleasant activities, etc). And we tend to not do things that feel bad. Either way, the feeling that we anticipate getting will influence whether we will choose to do something or not.

But, there are also reasons that I don't understand and they're not reasons, really. They don't indicate how exactly the crossdresser benefits from dressing. These reasons are: "I just like women's clothes. They feel nicer or softer than men's clothes. Women's clothes have a wider variety of styles and colors. Women are allowed to wear pants so why can't men wear skirts." I might even add "It makes me feel good" to this list, since saying this is rather non-descriptive.

Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"? Surely the payoff must be large indeed to risk all those things? Is there no need at all to be feminine, or is it really just because women's clothes come in prettier colors and feel softer?

… which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

[AmyGaleRT]

It could be that they haven't really sat down and thought the matter through. It took a long time for me to come to the conclusion that I've voiced here on the forums, which is that I have a part-female soul that I am expressing when en femme. It also took the influence of my fiancee, who believes that her soul is Native American, and got me thinking about the concept of one's soul being of different attributes from one's body. Before that, I might have just latched onto the "I like women's clothes" explanation as a cheap, easy response. It's still true though, I do like the clothes. But I had to dig deeper to figure out why I like them, why I felt happy and contented wearing them.

- Amy

[Kate Simmons]

I agree that there may be some flawed logic and self deception involved but sometimes when any of us get a fixed idea in our head, it's hard to knock it out even with a sledge hammer. Bottom line is it's nice to look nice, simple as that.Many of us just do it because we can and it then turns into a feed back/feed forward process of good feelings. I must admit, however, that the more I get in touch with my inner feelings and motivations, the more I don't see what the big deal is and just do it without the need to justify it.:)

[reb.femme]

If I could answer your question/s in any meaningful way then I would have written a book about my findings and be a rich man/girl in the process.

However, I'm purely of the mindset that I like my femininity element that can be expressed whilst presenting as female but I retain my purely masculine side that is so much a part of me. I have only been dressing fully this year since I came out to my wife, and I do feel this lets me show a side of my character that otherwise would be stifled.

As regards the "ostracism from peers' part, no worries for this 'Billy No Mates'. I left the Forces 20 years ago and returned to the area I grew up in, only to discover that I had changed beyond all recognition from the boy that I was. Maybe I'm a British snob now? :heehee: I definitely changed socio-economic group, but Trans was never on my list...........or was it?

Rebecca

[Kelley]

This question has been on my mind and has caused me a lot problems ever since my wife asked me "why". I feel that all my life I have tried to fit the image taught to me by the men around me. I do not believe that there is male and female gender but a spectrum from macho to ultra feminine. Men are expected to live in the narrow part of the male end. My personality slides down a bit towards the female end but I dare not show it for fear labels will be attached. When I dress it is like hanging a sign on myself that says I am here on the spectrum don't expect macho. It feels good not to act male, it feels good to relax and let my guard down. When dressed no one expects me to be strong. This is not the whole story but a large portion of it

[andrea lace]

I dress because it makes me feel sexy it turns me on but doesn't always lead to sex. My wife says I am less stressed when I am dressed and tend to continue this for the rest of the day even when I return to drab.

[Rogina B]

It is something you are born with[at least some of us].No other explanation for it.I,like so many,were curious[almost fixated] on wearing girl clothes.Pre puberty,clothes were the differing thing between sexes..I loved the "Brownie dress"! By puberty,I was seriously envious of girls.As a teen,I wanted that "magical power" so badly and started my pursuits of "absorbing their style"..and this has continued to now. It would all be easy except for the fact that I have been doing the boy life because it is what people born with penises are supposed to do. But,I had to have this "T" feeling at birth and the clothing feelings were the confirmation of it.It is too common a theme to be dismissed easily.

[Amanda M]

Could it be that they just don't need to?

[Joanne f]

As you said there are a lot of reasons given that try to explain why someone likes to cross dress and I am sure that some of the simplest reasons given are the reasons for that particular person and if it was not for the fact that the clothes were originally intended for female's then there would not be the necessity to explain why you like to wear a particular type of clothing , I am just wondering if a female was asked the same question would you get similar answers but for some there is obviously a deeper reason in that it works as a pathway, bridge, physical connection to an inner side of you that you need to find a way to express and the one thing you left out , To feel normal , I am sure that most females have exactly the same reasons for liking to wear certain types of clothing and for some unknown reason there seems to be a growing number of males that have a similar reason to do the same yet society makes us have to explain why, maybe that is the unfair bit about cross dressing ( which I expect also apply's to FtM who no doubt have to explain why they do not like girlie clothes ) , it is conditioned into us that males should like one thing and females should like another yet society seems to be embracing the way females can act,do or dress, and even be the bread winner of the family maybe it is time that for a certain group of males we caught up with that or society caught up with us , apart from that I have not got a clue but the next time you put on something that makes you feel good about your self , ( I will not say sexy as I am sure that you are sexy whatever you are wearing and it would not be right for me to do so , but you are ) Ok just slapped my self so no need for you to do so , yes the next time just think that there are males about who feel just the same way and it is as simple as that , just had to slap myself again I am getting sidetracked of your question :devil:

[Melanie Sykes]

This question has plagued me for years, and I've considered and rejected many theories of my own over the years. Since joining this forum, it's been interesting to see what others claim are the reasons for their own dressing, but I'm still not totally sure why I do it. For me, it's not really about the styling, colours and materials, although I can see why some argue that. You can now buy men's clothes in similar styles and much the same materials. I wouldn't argue that men's cotton underwear is any more coarse than women's cotton underwear, and in many cases it's a lot more uncomfortable to wear women's underwear than it is to wear men's, simply because knickers weren't designed to fit men.
For me, it's the fact that they're women's clothes, and that makes them magical in some way. The women's clothes I own I would never have bought had they been hanging in the men's section, because that would make them utterly humdrum. Wearing women's clothes makes me feel very close to the women and femininity I adore. For example, I'm obviously very close to my wife when we're making love, but I think that in a sense, wearing women's clothes makes me feel even closer than that. I don't know why. I think maybe that it's the closest I can get to feeling how a woman feels as she goes through her day - by reproducing the tactile feelings she must be experiencing on her body. That's obviously a pretty shallow experience of womanhood, but I still find it exhilarating. Maybe that's also because of the taboo nature of cross-dressing for men.

There's probably more to it than that, but I can't put my finger on it and I don't have time for more analysis right now. I'll keep my eye on this thread and post back if I come up with something else!

[Frédérique]

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

The short answer is that men’s clothes CONCEAL, and women’s clothes REVEAL, something I will elaborate on at length if you’re interested, but it'll probably be a waste of my time (and yours). It’s true that fine men’s clothing has plenty of tactile splendor, obtained at a steep price, and it can mollify the sensualist a little, but why not get the REALLY good stuff and have fun challenging gender boundaries at the same time? Why, indeed...

I’m glad you chimed in on this topic, Reine, because your consistent non-understanding attitude on this subject inspired my thread OP titled “I like to wear women’s clothes.” It really CAN be that simple – I don’t understand why you keep insisting there has to be more to it than that! For some of us, I mean. I get the feeling that from your “position” as a GG, this fetishistic interest in something forbidden just cannot be understood, but can you at least appreciate the fact that many MtF crossdressers just dress because they like the clothes? It may go beyond that, or it might not, or it may be something else entirely, but consistent resistance to simple truths expressed on this site only clouds the CD mind and makes everything much more complicated – does it have to be like this? I get the feeling that I could write until my fingers are blue, but it’ll make no difference to you – there MUST be something else, I hear you say, but unless you ARE a MtF crossdresser, or you understand ALL types of MtF CD'ers, well, what’s the sense of trying to explain things? It’s frustrating, to be sure, especially when YOU are openly trying to “debunk” things – are you trying to debunk the pleasures of MtF crossdressing, and make it into a purely pathological exercise? Does this qualify as support?

I can’t hang around to discuss this. If it wasn’t the wee hours I would “say” more – maybe later. BTW, you also inspired my thread OP about us MtF crossdressers all trying to be “beautiful women.” That’s another one of your misconceptions. I should take this opportunity to thank for the inspiration, or the ammunition, however you wish to look at it. PLEASE give me (us) a break...
:straightface:

You know, I get the feeling that you don't like US... :sad:

[Sonya]

I have been struggling to find a meaningful (or deeper) answer to why we choose to cross dress and risk so much. I recently separated from my wife and me being a CD was the real deal breaker for her. I believe that i am a good person but as much as i try i can not give up this part of me. All i can come up with is that this part of me is programmed in my genes and it is instinctive. In my case i enjoy both my male and female appearance.

I know that this really doesn't not fit my theory of CD programmed in my genes but sometimes I wonder if we lived in a world where there were not a huge variance between the male and female appearance in the society such as it was common for both man and woman to use make up, wear skirts, wear high heels, remove body hair, have long hair, wear nail polish ect ect...then maybe i would be just normal.

[genevie]

At it's most basic: Part of me wants to be a girl. Its not all of me. I don't want to transition. That part gets to express itself when I dress. At that time I could cry for the relief and rightness of it. I don't think some of us are born all one sex. Lucky for us or unlucky for us. The expression of the betweeners is not as easy in our society. But if we are lucky, we might find likeminded folks who we can share our thoughts.

[Beverley Sims]

I think those that just like womens clothes are just starting out or have not looked at any underlying reasons for it.
Closer to the truth it may be that they do not want to reveal any inner feelings they may have.

[Aaron Zwidling]

I've been trying to figure it out for more than thirty years and still don't have an answer that would likely satisfy you. I decided years ago that even if I had a reason that made sense to other people it likely wouldn't change my behaviour, so I would just accept it for what it is. Dressing is something I still really enjoy and have enjoyed for those same thirty plus years. How many things in life can you say that about? For me not many, so I've come to accept my dressing without fully understanding it or even needing to fully understand it.

[Michelle (Oz)]

Oh Reine. I much prefer it when you are giving your views. I now have to put my thinking cap on.

My dressing has cost me one wife and could have (and still might) a second wife. There are significant financial costs in dressing - even a good deal of additional luggage to cart around when travelling. So the cost part of the equation is high.

Frankly though I don't know why I dress at such a high cost. I used to, on occasions, try to understand but now just accept. Presenting as totally female to the limit of my ability sure gives me an absolute high when out dressed. I love the planning and try to perfect the execution. It brings me joy and happiness. I meet and interact with friendly accepting people that I would never otherwise meet. I do things that my male trained mind sometimes wonders about my sanity - but when totally en femme such thoughts are overtaken by the joy, the sense of 'rightness'.

I don't find wearing female clothes at home sufficient. It needs to be the full female expression out in the community. But I'm still using words like 'joy' and I do like the 'feel' of female clothes.

So, I dunno.

[FrozenShiela]

The catch is with those simple statements, is that they are true. I learned you can't discredit feelings if you express them, so going the simple route first is a great way to come out to someone. That's how I did it to come out to my entire family. I think those statements are necessary to convey a simplicity in crossdressing, and to downplay it as a simple aspect of ones personality to other people.

[Karen_K]

An interesting question, and one I haven't really come across yet. I can definitely see how the second set of reasons you list (the ones you don't accept) seem to be less fundamental ones, or really they are just effects of another, more deep reason. Why aren't people more circumspect about it? That's hard to say, but it isn't behavior that is limited to cross-dressing. A lot of people cannot give you deep, fundamental reason for holding the political leanings that they do.

[xdressed]

I've often wondered about this, I know three fellow CDs in real life, one of whom is a fetish dresser and a bit of a creep so I tend to avoid him, but the others definitely just fit into the 'i just like the clothes' category. They don't seem to have any actual female identity and seem just as confused as many non-TG people do when I try to explain it to them. I've noticed of the few famous people I know that are crossdressers none of them seem to go into much detail as to why they do it in interviews or shows either.

[Brittany CD]

It's a good question. I just like the clothes, but you bring up a good analysis. I was in the mall the other day when I saw a pair of heels in a store window and I wanted to put my feet in them. I see a nice dress and I want to wear it. It probably doesn't give much perspective, but that's just what's in my mind

I will say this though: I would give up crossdressing if it jeopardized a relationship. A meaningful relationship is more important than wearing a dress

[Trysha]

I think most people do it simply because they enjoy it,and they are strong minded enough not to let others
dictate what their gender is or what clothes they can wear to express their gender.

[Wildaboutheels]

Eliminate the guys born in the wrong body [and if "most" gay people are clearly born that way no reason to believe others canot be born in the wrong body is there?] and what's left is simply Evolution at work - a man's ability to be visually inspired and proceed to the promised land in a matter of seconds or minutes IF he chooses. No GG will ever/can ever understand this. For men, Os are easy and their VISION is what enables this. It's a well established fact that FEW GGs are blessed with those 2 "gifts". They do get longer lasting Os though and maybe multiples but I certainly would not trade my brain workings concerning the matter for a females if given the choice. Not every guy needs or wants to be done with "it" in a mtter of seconds or a few minutes and move onto somethng else. Clothing items can enable men to more or less "drag it out" for minutes or hours.

As far as the many of the older members reports that their dressing seldom involves "one" anymore? Few will deny that at least at some point, maybe 20 or 30 years ago, their dressing WAS a means to an end, possibly for many years. Not much of a stretch to decipher that if a brain learns to associate the LOOK and FEEL of female clothing being worn with the big O... Pavlov's Dogs come to mind.

We are still on the planet because of the highly addictive nature of MEN's orgasms. Only stands to reason that they will be easy for men and fully capable of clouding the better judgement of so many otherwise "intelligent" men. Evolution IS omnipotent.

You can stop most men from CDing by taking away their mirrors and/or their cameras. THEN, they will have to go back to porn or magazines. All 3 can be used for the same purpose and the porn business IS a multi billion dollar business. Porn isn't my thing but I am guessing most porn women are attractive women in skimpy outfits. Just like hookers?

Unless I missed it, I have yet to see a pic thread featuring granny dresses with flats.

[Meg East]

I gave up deep thinking as my New Year's resolution.

I have a tendency to dress when I am not under stress, i.e., I dress when I am happy. Maybe it is my personal reward for being a good state of mind.

[Stevie]

I risk everything because I'm selfish and that's what I want to do. I support my wife no matter what and feel she should do the same for me. But that's not the case because its not normal. So I asked her what normal is and she said not that.

[Ambergold43]

Frankly, and I know this probably won't make many friends on this forum, I reject the notion of expressing an "inner-female" or whatever when justifying or explaining Crossdressing. I don't know of any and can't think of any Crossdressers that would actually like to deal with the real burdens women face on a day-to-day basis. Women are under-paid, have their sexual lives and choices politicized, they are often not taken seriously by their professional colleagues, and are subjected to sexual assault, harassment, and objectification, just to name a few... and that's only here in the US. Unfortunately, there is no true "gender equality" and I would go so far as to say that we as a society are only working towards an "equality of the sexes." Which is to say that its becoming OK for females to occupy the social and gender roles traditionally ascribed to males (having a career, engaging in politics, etc.), but not visa versa.

So to the point of all this: The best justification I can come up with outside of a notion of "just liking the clothes" (and for the record: women's clothing IS way more fun than men's clothes) is that Crossdressing is all about power.

I don't think we as men often think about it in such terms, but playing the masculine social-role can be extremely stressful, unexciting, and drab, among many other things. Men are limited in many ways by their appearance, social behaviors, and career expectations. BUT, we do occupy and control the top of the "social hierarchy" if you want to think of it that way, and sometimes the head that wears the crown gets heavy. It makes more sense to me that Crossdressing is about shirking, briefly or long-term, the responsibilities of "man-ness" or masculinity to occupy and play a role different from that of "just a man." In other words, I believe Crossdressing is about divesting oneself of the power, privilege, and responsibility (and the stress that comes along with it) that masculinity provides and demands.

I believe this is why people often "retreat" into crossdressing during times of stress... and why some men find their "female" selves to be more exciting or freeing than their "male" selves - because when they are playing the role of a woman, they DON'T have those same worries and stresses. I could write all day on this topic, I have about a million and one theories, but I'll suffice it to say I believe at the core it's all about power - either taking on or rejecting it.

[Cheryl T]

Could be those reasons mask the self-denial that many have. It's often difficult for a male to admit he has female tendencies or feelings as he may relate those to sex (maybe I'm gay) rather than emotion and by using a superficial reason he doesn't have to face those emotions....Just guessing here, please don't pounce on me...lol

[SandraV]

Interesting question. Speaking for myself, I believe the first set of reasons you mention are more superficial and serve as a quick answer to a difficult question. While, at least in my case, most of those are true (I like the feeling of the clothes, the fabrics, I enjoy it, etc) they are not the driving factors. Interestingly, just this weekend I had another of those difficult and heart wrenching discussions with my wife as she tries to cope and understand. Her question went something like this: "I really don't care if you want to wear anything around the house. It's in the end just rags that we use to cover ourselves. But why the need to fully transform yourself into a woman (wigs, make up, breast forms, etc)?"

The truth is, I don't have an answer. That is a question I've struggled to answer for most of my life. Yes I enjoy it, makes me feel at ease & relaxed, etc. Yet, while I do enjoy presenting this side of myself, more importantly it is that something in me that creates a need for me to do it.

Speaking for myself, I would describe it as GID to some degree. There, enough to create a need for me to dress, yet not strong enough to drive me to live 100% of the time en femme or to transition.

[DonniDarkness]

which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

agreed! 100%

We live in an age where mens clothing is changing, You can shop and buy mens clothing that is ridiculously femme. Skinny jeans that have pocket detailing.....off shoulder cowl necks....Scarves on men are in fashion.....even our shoes can be purchased in femme colors......

I believe wholeheartedly that we as "men who like womens clothes", have infinite options out there pertaining to what we have available for attire.


Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

They have reasons Riene, They just dont want to admit them for some reason. If there were no femme identity within, it would be guys clothes and not girls clothes. I couldnt tell you why other people lie about their reasoning, other than what we already know about guilt and shame.

Also Riene, This question would be have alot better answers if you were asking this from people who were out of the closet. (in any degree)
Most of the reasons like the ones you state above, all come from people who have little or no motivation to be out of the closet. So maybe thats the defining factor in your question.....they have no need to explain it to themselves because it just complicates the reasoning they have for hiding.....


consistent resistance to simple truths expressed on this site only clouds the CD mind and makes everything much more complicated

Freddy, You do realize that your speaking to a woman who has been here for years, guiding in the sad and lost GG's of Crossdressers, Is MARRIED to a CD, and has an active open life with her spouse as a supportive SO.....But yet your taking a condescending tone with her because she doesnt agree with your illusions of truth. I think you could be more supportive as well....after all we accept your illusions

We are who we are. We do what we do. Everything else belongs to someone else.

-Donni-

[bridget thronton]

It seemed to me that it became a psychological addiction after I dressed. I have occasionally been fascinated by the reincarnation view (I may have been female in my previous life or may become female in my next life). Regardless presenting as a woman just seems a natural fit. Perhaps it is just cuz i can reject the parts of my personality into donot not like more easily when i look like someone else.

[outhiking]

I think it's the same reason women like to wear pretty underwear even though no one will see it. It makes me feel pretty and feminine and I like that feeling. I like feeling more vulnerable and as an object of desire, to be pursued rather than have to do the pursuing.

[April_Ligeia]

This is a really interesting thread. I am not convinced that an attraction to wearing makeup, nail polish, jewelry, etc. is neccesarily feminine. I can not explain why I get tattooed either, honestly. I just like the way tattoos look, and I get tattooed because I like it. I crossdress for the same reason, I just really like the way it looks.
I remember having countless, pointless dicussions with my ex wife about 'why' I wanted to crossdress, and had to basically invent 'reasons' that made her feel better. At the end of it all, I only realized that there is no reason. As unsatisfying as it may be, I just feel that every justification I had to come up with was dishonest.
Sorry if this is unhelpful, I just wanted to express that my own answer of 'I don't know why I crossdress' is actually the result of YEARS of thought, questions, accusations and circular conversations.

[Monicamaryjay]

Hi Reine,
"I just like womens' clothes", seems like an appropriate response to curious onlookers but certainly does not address the issue in any depth.

Carl jung dedicated much of life studied the "anima and the animus", the male and female sides to all persons. He concluded that gender was on a continuum and not just female and male.
The MBTI, Myers Briggs personality inventory was based on his work and helps people identify their personality traits. It analyses introversion/ extroversion, intuition/sensing, feeling/ thinking and how we evaluate. quick judging or gathering info.
The results of these tests tend help to determine where you might fit on the continuum of gender.
I have used this test a lot in my personal life, with friends, clients, and in the workplace. It helps people understand how they perceive the world and they express themselves.

My tets have consistently shown much more feminine like expression and personality, so it is part of who I am and not just something "I like".
its much deeper an precious for me.

I have met and appreciate an important part of myself. What better gift?

Monica

[Jenniferathome]

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

That's easy. They are in denial that they are a cross dresser. "Cross dresser" is a label associated with shame, freakishness, and perversion. Who would want to be that? Simple denial.

[sonna]

i thought and thought about this a lot before. all i can come up with it just feels right to dress up and look like a girl

[Jenniferathome]

Frankly, and I know this probably won't make many friends on this forum, I reject the notion of expressing an "inner-female" or whatever when justifying or explaining Crossdressing. I don't know of any and can't think of any Crossdressers that would actually like to deal with the real burdens women face on a day-to-day basis.

But Amber, we are not women, we are projecting as a woman or something feminine. I agree, no one wants the crap you mentioned but being a cross dresser is really about being the "idealized" woman. That why we tend to over dress (wearing a dress when the typical woman would wear pants), and are as overtly feminine as possible. It's not real life but a cross dressers version for a time.

[Ambergold43]

But Amber, we are not women, we are projecting as a woman or something feminine. I agree, no one wants the crap you mentioned but being a cross dresser is really about being the "idealized" woman. That why we tend to over dress (wearing a dress when the typical woman would wear pants), and are as overtly feminine as possible. It's not real life but a cross dressers version for a time.

Yep I totally agree. I agree it's all about the illusion, the temporary assuming of a different gender role... the moving from one social status (a man) to another (a woman). That's why I think the appeal of Crossdressing, if not just for the fun of it (which I know too well), is better explained not in terms of expressing some sort of "inner woman," but of the relief of not having to "be a man" or act masculine for a while.

Since gender performance is judged, accepted or denied by society, then the above can only be accomplished by creating the most feminine "character" possible. In order to shrug off the demands of masculinity, there is a need to be as believable ("passable") as possible, not only to ourselves but to our society and culture which ultimately judges who and/or what is feminine and what is not.

[drushin703]

I mistakenly ran across a hunting channel (direct tv 605) where two guys hiding in a camouflaged box, dressed from head to toe in camouflaged gear,
holding camouflaged colored guns and whispering in some chilly woods, totally ambushed some unsuspecting dear as it walked into the open. And after
the animal was down, stood over it in total excitement, their voices quivering. Does the mind print out incorrect or false accounts of what is happyness?
I think your asking an inquisitive question but looking for a philosophical answer. An answer nor more (or less) miscreant that finding joy in bringing down
a dear or plowing an airplane into a large office building or collecting coins. Some things, crossdressing included, are those divinely natural phenomenon
experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law. Call it a miricle if you want to, but here in Detroit, I call it having one hell of a good time...dana

i love you reine/

[paulinescotlandcd]

Sorry to keep it oh so simple but it is a pleasure. Yes, I am that shallow :)

[darla_g]

Its not really the clothes by themselves that provide the satisfaction for crossdressing.
I can't speak from some journal or somebody else, only for myself; but I think CDing provides a bit of a sexual rush. Over the years this sexual rush has existed but to a lesser degree at times. It is supplanted by a need to improve one's appearance and emulation of an attractive woman.

So the reward that you are asking about is a bit of that sexual rush, but also the satisfaction of providing a credible emulation of a woman.

[Julogden]

I think most of the reasons have to do with the admittedly nebulous "feeling comfortable in one's own skin" concept. That's enough for me.

I would have thought that you had grasped that by now, Reine. Kind of a surprising question, as you always seemed to have pretty much understood what's going on with us here.

Carol

[Jessica S]

I think there could be more than a few factors on why at least I started and still dress. First I would say curiosity may have started the journey. Next I would go with jealousy, " Why can't I wear those clothes?". Which leads into selfishness " I'm going to wear the clothes anyways( most of the time not our clothes but a relative)". With each step along the way there was an adrenaline packed rush trying on these clothes. Which released all the chemicals in the brain associated with pleasure. I believe it becomes a little addicting. As I got older the less the rush but the need was still just as strong.

I agree with it is not that the clothes feel better but that the are indeed women's clothes. I have had silk boxers and pajama pants but the just don't do it for me. Now put a little lace and sell them in the women's section and all of the sudden they do it for me. I think the taboo aspect has a lot to do with it. I can wear my levi jeans and they just don't give as big as a thrill as when I put on a pair of women's levi jeans. They look about the same feel the same but in my mind they are not.

[Foxglove]

Hi, Reine! Excellent question, one I've often pondered. Like you, I'm somewhat dissatisfied with explanations such as "I like the clothing", or "It's a stress reliever."

"I like the clothing (because of the colors, texture, etc.)" doesn't explain why someone likes them. The vast majority of men in this world don't like women's clothes, would be disgusted by the idea of putting them on. So what makes CDers different? Where does that liking come from?

As for stress relievers, most men in this world would never dream of putting on women's clothing to relieve stress. There are so many other stress relievers: you can get drunk, run a few miles, go the ball game, watch a good film, etc. So what makes some men turn to women's clothing?

Or a statement like this:


As far as the many of the older members reports that their dressing seldom involves "one" anymore? Few will deny that at least at some point, maybe 20 or 30 years ago, their dressing WAS a means to an end, possibly for many years. Not much of a stretch to decipher that if a brain learns to associate the LOOK and FEEL of female clothing being worn with the big O... Pavlov's Dogs come to mind.

This doesn't explain why a guy might find putting on women's clothing a turn-on in the first place. Most men wouldn't find it such.

So I, too, am dissatisfied with these explanations because I don't feel they go deep enough. Here's my current working theory:

My dad's family is/was a musical one. I know of five people in his family who were quite gifted. My sister, however, would only have qualified as competent at the piano until she eventually gave it up. My dad and I both tried playing instruments for a while until we gave them up for lack of any real talent. My son enjoys music tremendously, though he's never even considered trying to play any himself.

In other words, my dad's family got bitten by the "music bug", but we got bitten to varying degrees. I believe that TGism is like that: you can get bitten by the "TG bug", but some people get bitten worse than others.

We all know the degrees of TGism: you have those who transition, those who live full-time in their preferred gender without transitioning, those who live a great deal of time in their preferred gender but will revert to their role assigned at birth when necessary, those who get out and about often enough in their preferred gender but live primarily in their role assigned at birth, those who dress in private for varying amounts of time, and so on.

What I've learned from this forum, however, is that there is a big divide between MTF's who identify as female (at least to a certain extent) and those who identify as male. All of us feel an attraction to things female. That's the common bond among us. But whereas some feel so strong an attraction as to wish to transition, in others the attraction is relatively weak--so weak that they still identify as men. From what I've seen on this forum, I think we might use this as a tentative definition of a CDer: one who dresses as a woman, but identifies as male. (This definition might have to be tweaked a bit, but I think perhaps in the main it will hold good.)

So in order to explain CDers, you have to explain transpeople in general, and scientific research is taking some steps in that direction these days. But when a cause (or causes) is/are identified, a remaining task will be to explain why trans tendencies are more pronounced in some people than in others. I'm not sure that will be easy. How do you explain why one member of a musical family has (sadly) so much less talent than others?



You can stop most men from CDing by taking away their mirrors and/or their cameras.

I'd be interested to know if you have any evidence to support this assertion. I personally would be extremely surprised if this were true.

This is part of your "visual theory" of man/CDing, which also leads you to claim that there aren't any blind CDers, which, besides being rather cruel, is also unsupported by any evidence, as far as I know.


Unless I missed it, I have yet to see a pic thread featuring granny dresses with flats.

That's because those of us who dress more modestly don't post photos. I don't wear granny dresses myself, but I do tend to wear fairly long skirts and flats. My clothes aren't just clothes: they're part of me and my life. Just like my bathrobe and decidedly un-sexy nightie and slacks I wear on a walk: who's interested?

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Jenniferathome]

Yep I totally agree. I agree it's all about the illusion, the temporary assuming of a different gender role... the moving from one social status (a man) to another (a woman). That's why I think the appeal of Crossdressing, if not just for the fun of it (which I know too well), is better explained not in terms of expressing some sort of "inner woman," but of the relief of not having to "be a man" or act masculine for a while.

Since gender performance is judged, accepted or denied by society, then the above can only be accomplished by creating the most feminine "character" possible. In order to shrug off the demands of masculinity, there is a need to be as believable ("passable") as possible, not only to ourselves but to our society and culture which ultimately judges who and/or what is feminine and what is not.

You make a pretty compelling argument, BUT... I'll pay the bills when dressed, I'll have business calls when dressed, basically, my male obligations exist and I see them even when I am dressed. That does not obviate your position but I think it shows that we all have some different underlying reasons or the same combination of reasons at differing percentages.

To Reine's original submission: it's not because the clothes are nicer.

[Stephanie47]

which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

I've never accepted the premises that a man would dress up entirely en femme, from wig and makeup down to hosiery and heels and everything in between, because he likes the feel, color choices, styles of women's clothing. The ongoing non acceptance by family and society, potential loss of job, basically everything a man wants in his life is inherent to cross dressing. Although I have accepted myself I still will affirm life would have been in the past and will be easier in the future, if I was not a cross dresser.

Do I think the clothes women wear are nicer, sexier, etc, than men's clothing? Yes and No! When I was working I always did my best to present myself as a well dressed and groomed man. Dressed as a woman I try to do the same. Women's undergarments, especially slips, are sexier than anything a man can find available in men's wear. My wife just shook her head when she found one of my red bras. Try to explain to yourself or your wife that you like wearing a bra because you like the feel of women's clothing. Pure BS in my opinion. I know some have disagreed with my affirmation that I consider wearing panties only as a fetish and not true cross dressing. Trying to emulate a woman by just wearing panties? To me it does not compute!

I think saying as a cross dresser I just like the feel or look of the clothing is some sort of self denial. Now, I do not really have a clue why I like to emulate women. I never was 'feminized' by an older sister or cousin or aunt or my mother. I have no excuse. I have no reason. I don't know why.

Years ago my wife did buy me men's underpants and lounging pants in sensuous fabrics. It is not work. It's not the same as women's clothing. She bought a length of lingerie fabric to rub over my body in bed in lieu of a nylon gown. It did not work. It wasn't the same.

I just like appearing as a woman. Why? I suspect to escape the world of a man. No, I would not really want to bear and rear children. I would not want to be paid less than a man for equal work. Yada, yada, yada. When a woman says she would have like to be a man in a man's world, she really is not talking about taking the garbage out, mowing the lawn, crawling under the house to defrost the pipes, shovel snow, etc.

[Amy Fakley]

[The short answer is that men’s clothes CONCEAL, and women’s clothes REVEAL ...

there is something to this, but in my view it points to something deeper (as ReineD suggests). Female clothes are different in terms of intention than men's clothes, and Frédérique is completely right to point that out. Women's clothes celebrate the wearer's form, while men's clothes don't ... more than don't ... one might say the actively go in the opposite direction except in very rare edge cases.

Brains are complicated things ... we live in a world of symbols, in fact symbols are at the core of human intelligence.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but I strongly suspect that my desire to emulate the appearance and mannerisms of females is linked to the symbolism of the objects involved. For instance this wonderful little black dress I'm wearing right now is designed to show off curves. I don't have too many to start with, but it certainly amplifies what few I have in a flattering way.

Feminine curves are a symbol. We humans understand them as an alias for other things commonly associated with females ... softness, empathy, nurturing, emotional awareness, sexuality, etc, etc.

So I wear these kinds of things, when I want to celebrate those aspects of my personality. Because at a real basic level I seem to tend toward those stereotypically feminine traits no matter how I'm dressed.

That's as much of an understanding of this as I've managed to muster so far anyhow ...

[Emma Beth]

Shallow or deep, does it really matter?

An aspect that I think Ambergold43 hit on is that for some it is a form of escapism giving pleasure and control over the things we have no control over. I'm not sure I 100% agree with Amber about the power thing, but all the same I think there is something to it for some.

The biggest thing I have learned from reading the different threads of discussion and support on this site is that there are as many different reasons, deep or shallow, as there are people here.

So, I do not think your questions can be answered to your satisfaction, ReineD.

[Tracii G]

Starts a topic the never responds not sure why the op'er posted it.
Seems she has a problem taking an answer at face value for what it is.
No one answer is the same for everyone.

[darla_g]

Starts a topic the never responds not sure why the op'er posted it.
Seems she has a problem taking an answer at face value for what it is.
No one answer is the same for everyone.
I think the deal is as the expression goes "your mileage may vary".

No one's reason or corresponding resultant satisfaction for dressing is the same. Yet it is always interesting to discuss and I know for me the original reason I came on here.

[CassandraSmith]

The deep psychological reason...

I identified with my mom more than any male figure and wanted to be like her. Not having a dad probably is part of it but I'm not really sure about that one. Freud thinks we need to be rejected by our mom's or better put, have our dad take mom away from us in order to identify with the aggressor and want his characteristics. I never knew this reality. In fact, half of the men in my life weren't trustworthy. The others were well meaning but not interesting as role models.

I knew I was CD at 3 years-old too and had already tried on mom's clothes when I was learning to talk. That was discouraged but not punished. It was never encouraged.

An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.

OK, now the real reason: Men are caught up in maintaining balance (X vs Y) all the time and it's wearying to me. Women don't have to deal with any of that because they have a double portion of X. Their gender life is way simpler. It's ironic because people say that women are complex but I don't experience it that way. They are simply more nuanced. Men are boring to me generally on every level because their focus is too narrow.

[ClosetED]

I always appreciate Reine's thoughts and experience. Annabelle also always has given deep thought to issues. I also agree with Ambergold43. Many don't want to look deeply into why. They enjoy it and don't want to overanalyze themseleves. But others do and this forum is a place where people can offer their thoughts to see who has good arguements for or against the suggestion. It may not apply to all. I am in the group who tries to understand why I desire this and agree that it is creating, in our own minds, the transition to a state where inner aspects we are labelling feminine can be expressed, when dressed as men, we are coerced to not display. This allowance of our natural state puts us into a better internal enjoyment of life. You can call it relieving stress ( I do), but continuing to do normal male-job chores when dressed still is less stressful as the mind does not accept all the burdens despite the body managing them. I don't think we need mirrors or cameras, but the direct sight and sensations is part of it. And yes, early in the path of most (but not all) CDers is the sexual release but many move past that. I do wonder what other forms of activity might allow this same release - does alcohol do the same or does it not last as long as CDing? Does spending time with friends do the same? Hobbies? From the forum, it does not appear to be the same, but we are the select ones who it does not work for - the ones who it does work for would not be here much. THere is no answer for everyone, but worthwhile to let each have their polite say.

[Kerigirl2009]

When I crossdress, its because I want to feel more like a woman. not ony does the feel or appearance of the clothing make me look prettier when I am dressed. It gives me a sense of completeness. I feel like I am a whole person when I present female.
I told my wife that I was a crossdresser three and a half years ago and at that time I said that I was only a crossdresser. I had finally accepted that I could not change this about me, Afterall I never dressed all the time, but I did underdress all the time. Because it ade me feel good about myself as a person.

Now three and a half years later, I have learned more about myself and accepted that it is ok to admit that I want to be a woman, Its not just the clothing but it is actually the feeling of being a whole individual person that I want and enjoy, Being able to relate to other women is a wonderful feeling that I have only recently been able to have and I love it.

So its not anything to how the clothing feels, but its about how they make me feel about myself, the silk is just a bonus :)

[Ann Louise]

I realize and accept that on the spectrum of male-to-female gender I am somewhere up towards the "middle" between the two poles. I've come to realize that dressing serves as a mental key that unlocks a door into the place where I can be more fully conscious of my true gender. When I have to get back in drab I feel the door trying to close behind me.

[outhiking]

Honestly, I'm tired of looking for deeper meaning into why I crossdress. Sure, it can be a means to an end and that in and of itself is pleasurable, but why then do I continue to dress or find it pleasurable in the first place? Why do I spend many days dressed without the pressure of the big "O"? I simply enjoy dressing and acting feminine and have learned to accept it. Would I continue to do it if it also came with the burdens of truly being a woman. Absolutely. Do I dislike being a guy? Nope, I can enjoy dressing in a suit and tie almost as much (but without any fetish overtones).

Id est, quid id est - It is what it is.

[Debra Russell]

At it's most basic: Part of me wants to be a girl. Its not all of me. I don't want to transition. That part gets to express itself when I dress. At that time I could cry for the relief and rightness of it. I don't think some of us are born all one sex. Lucky for us or unlucky for us. The expression of the betweeners is not as easy in our society. But if we are lucky, we might find likeminded folks who we can share our thoughts.

I think a great many of us feel this way - I know I do .... the clothes take me to a different place -- and it's so comforting...................Debra

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Reine, All I know is it's who I am and it's what I do,
Seeing a pretty lady looking back at me in the mirror is fantastic.
The fascination of having breasts and wearing heels is awesome for me.
It could be a fulfillment of the feeling of something missing in my life.

[Tracii G]

I took the notion to dress enfemme all day yesterday because it felt right to me.
No deep seated reason for it that I can think of.

[Foxglove]

Honestly, I'm tired of looking for deeper meaning into why I crossdress.



Many don't want to look deeply into why. They enjoy it and don't want to overanalyze themseleves. But others do and this forum is a place where people can offer their thoughts to see who has good arguements for or against the suggestion.

For me personally it's important to have an answer. In recent times when I've come out to so many people, some of them have asked the big "WHY?". It's helpful to give them such answers as we can, while at the same time conceding that we don't yet have any definitive answers. "That's just the way it is" or "I just like it" gets us nowhere with such people.

One drawback of not being able to give an answer is that it allows trans-haters to draw their own conclusions, which they're never reluctant to do. We're just perverts, we're confused people in need of medication, etc.

Some type of answer, even if it's seriously incomplete, will help reflective cispeople to understand and sympathize with us. We'll never satisfy the trans-haters, but there are plenty of potential allies out there that we could win over. If I want people to take me seriously, I have to show them that I'm taking myself seriously.

Annabelle

[~Joanne~]

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

I surely can't. I guess I just have never thought about it that deeply and though I have for about an hour now, I am still coming up blank :(

[Barbara Ella]

When this all started for me a short time ago, I came out to my wife. Not as someone who wears women's clothing, but as a crossdresser. Are they the same? I don't know, but at the time it was significant to me. After she stopped laughing and then crying, the WHY questions came in droves. I have been pondering the why because it is all so new to me and continually changing.

At the time I started, I got an immediate peace about me. My wife even remarked that there was a change in my behavior, which she approved of. I now know that I am dressing for the woman inside who was unknowingly denied simple recognition for some 65 years. I don't need to see myself to have my peace, but if i do have to see me, I want it to match what I feel.

I am taking care of my inner peace separately now without as many clothing fixes, and am less reliant of dressing full femme as I realize that an old woman doesnt need a lot of "add ons" to make the male blend with an older woman, sad, but true. So I am feeling more femme every day and am matching my outer and inner persona.

Simply, dressing gave my my inner peace, and began an entirely different twist in my life.

Barbara

[GroovyChristy]

Ambergold, you make interesting points. You list the problems that women face and deny the "inner female," and go on to say that crossdressing is a way for us to escape the problems that men face. But I'm afraid that while you were listing the negative social implications of being female and the responsibility of power and privilege of being male, you have forgotten the virtues of femininity. Women may not (generally) have the physical "power" that males have (an overrated thing) but in their softer frames exists a subtle and mysterious power which is greater and more beautiful than the brutish muscle of a macho man. Femininity involves such things as empathy, nurturing, healing, grace, and all manner of such things which should be regarded as general virtues rather than signs of weakness. Females have as much responsibility as men do. As for social privileges and expectations, that is only a social construction which, while having real implications, has no inherent truth or cosmic validity. The social inferiority of women (which is in decline) has nothing to do with the inherent qualities of femininity, but rather the witless thinking of men through the ages.

The inner female may not be present in you, but would you deny the reality of the trans community? Are all transwomen simply looking to divest themselves of male responsibilities? In truth, they take on more hardship than any other man could ever know (that is, those who pursue transition). Gender is not black and white, but a fluid spectrum. Many great men through history have exhibited traditionally female traits, and vice versa. Think of gentle St. Francis giving a sermon to a flock of birds, or Buddha renouncing a life of wealth and war for a nonviolent existence of teaching and meditation. Conversely, think of Joan of Arc wielding a sword or Annie Oakley outshooting her male counterparts. We can choose to reject social convention (as crossdressers we do this anyway). Many of us wishing to express the inner female by whatever methods and those of us who wish we were born female would gladly take all the social discrimination, menstruation, and all other unpleasant things that come with being a woman in order to have the experience of womanhood in its beautiful and glorious entirety.

As for Reine's original question, I too am confused by the simple answers like "I just enjoy the clothes." I don't necessarily question it. If someone tells me such a simple reason, I accept that. Maybe it is that simple for them, but as always I can only speak from my own experience, which goes much deeper. Neither the simple or deeper reasons are more valid than the other, and I wish society could move forward and accept people in whatever clothes they choose to wear. If it never happens, then I will wear the clothing I want anyway, if only around the house.

[Taylor186]

To paraphrase JP Morgan, "people have two reasons for doing the things they do: the good reason and the real reason." I've spent a lot of years searching for my real crossdressing reason and I, for now, have to say it is: "I just don't know." And, based on the answers I read here and elsewhere on the net no one else has the real (root) answer either (other than maybe the Harry Benjamin folks if you believe their narrative).

But of course, nature abhors a vacuum so when asked, we just keep supplying the good reasons we've come up with and more often than expected, as ReineD rightly points out, the not-so-good reasons.

I don't hear ReineD saying that "I don't know" is not a good or real answer, I hear her saying that, with all the knowledge we have today, a superficial reason (and I would say dumb reason) is not a good reason.

But dumb answers to real issues abound outside the world of crossdressing too.


PS I am a big fan of the Myers-Briggs personality profile too but it in no way is a indicator of gender. To suggest so is to fundamentally misunderstand what it is about.

[Jenniferathome]

Starts a topic the never responds not sure why the op'er posted it.
Seems she has a problem taking an answer at face value for what it is.
No one answer is the same for everyone.

Perhaps she is busy and/or allowing as many as like to respond to develop some opinion and respond intelligently. I think you have to give Reine the benefit of the doubt.

[sometimes_miss]

Although I'm probably as guilty as anyone here for denying simple answers as correct, there are a lot of people who will fall apart if we push them too hard, and be forced to accept the reality of why they crossdress. We're brought up brainwashed by our parents and society to believe certain things; and our entire reality is based on our beliefs. One of those, is that we are men, and that as a man, it's only appropriate for us to behave in a certain way. A second, is that for a man to be anything feminine is such a horrible thing, that a man who does so should be very, very ashamed of it, even punished for it; even certain religions promote that to the point where men should be put to death because of it. Is there really any doubt that there is a whole lot of psychological trauma to be done by forcing those men into facing reality? Most of them are at a functional level; if you force them to stop believing what they've based their whole life on, they might have to be institutionalized. Not everyone can handle having their whole life put into question, resulting in not having any solid facts to base it on. Reine, some people simply are basically followers, and not able to think abstractly for themselves. They only know what they are told, and live their whole life based on that. If you 'throw a wrench' into their beliefs and tear them apart, you risk destroying everything they have, because often, they don't even have the ability to separate what's good and bad on their own.
An obvious incapacity to do this is, when you read the forums here, the frequent references to 'the woman inside me', or men referring to themselves in third person to distance themselves from it, such as 'my neighbor saw Alexandra today' as if they were referring to someone else instead of themselves. They simply cannot accept that it is themselves who is the female person referred to, because we've been brought up to believe it's such a horrible and completely unacceptable thing.

O.K., lets start.
Stress relief. Based on the concept that either 1. the stress is being caused by NOT dressing as a woman, or 2. we need to escape reality by being able to pretend we are someone or something else, in this case, a woman who is not the person in our 'male persons' stressful predicament. Or, both. The common statement that the desire to dress up as a woman gradually becomes so strong that it feels overwhelmeing, kind of indicates reason #1, but it can also combine with #2 when both are occuring at the same time, because it takes a certain amount of brain power to resist doing something that we feel we really need to do. But it begs the question again of why we feel the need to dress as a woman and/or behave as one. And that isn't something that a lot of 'just crossdressers' want to, or are able to, face even to themselves.

Likes the look of the clothing. Perhaps that person wants to be punished for being different, by facing ridicule from much of society. You would have to figure out why that person feels guilty about something. Or, they simply want to fantasize about being an attractive, beautiful person; why it has to be a female person, you'd have to investigate further, but for many of us who grew up being ignored romantically and got turned down by lots of potential lovers because we weren't good looking enough, the desire to be attractive is always there.

Likes the feel of the material. Again, in denial; there are plenty of men's clothes made of luxurious cloth.



Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels
You can stop most men from CDing by taking away their mirrors and/or their cameras.
This one is of course written from only one person's point of view, assuming that most other men who crossdress probably feel the same as himself. I don't take pictures of myself, and avoid mirrors when dressed. Although there are some crossdressers who do enjoy those activities, there are plenty of those who do not. I wonder how much of the pictures and mirrors concept is also based on the belief that GG's spend a lot of time in front of mirrors admiring themselves, and love having pictures of themselves taken (the last of which seems untrue; most women seem to avoid cameras like the plague).


mfakely wrote, while quoting Frederique, : Women's clothes celebrate the wearer's form, while men's clothes don't ... more than don't ... one might say the actively go in the opposite direction except in very rare edge cases.
I think the word 'celebrate' is the wrong one to use. Reveal is more correct, as women's clothing shows their figure, making it obvious that she is female and of notice to be available for mating, marriage not withstanding. Women's clothing attracts heterosexual, sexually active males to her. A simple mechanism in which to increase offspring and continue her line of DNA.

Then Cass wrote this:

An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.
This is a common belief of a lot of men; just one of the 'grass is always greener on the other side of the fence' things. Either the man really believes it, or uses the argument to support why he feels envious of being a woman as a valid reason for his crossdressing/TG/TS condition. Of course it's not true, but when searching for a simple reason to enable them to avoid facing their underlying one, it seems lots of men use it. But it's not true; they simply don't want to face reality.

[AllieSF]

For me, as I do not try to seek the definitive answer to something that is so obviously so hard to truly define, I enjoy playing that female role with my own personality when out on the real world. My goal and true enjoyment with all this is being out there interacting with others to satisfy my need for social (conversational) interactions with others. I am like that in male mode and probably more so in female mode. Secondary to that is that I also like to shop and find those rare treasures at thrift stories or on sale in better known stores. I like the variation of styles that I can experiment with as I create outfits out of various individual elements.

I read here all the time about our many members who need to know why. Yes, it would be nice to know exactly why, but seeing all that angst, confusion, frustrations and pain in trying to define that "why", I have long decided instead to focus on the fact that I want to do it for whatever reason, it is legal and hurts no one, so why not enjoy it, and that is exactly what I do.

[SarahMarie42]

Actually, what she's saying makes a great deal of sense. When anyone makes an investment into an outfit/fashion/etc. of any kind, even those who display no unconventional behaviors whatsoever, they are using that outfit/fashion/etc. to project something -- so, I'd say that, if there is ANY social element to the crossdressing, it has to involve some sort of symbolism (human beings are creatures of intent, much like Reine said). However, I believe someone could be comforted by wearing women's clothes privately if they had subconsciously attached some sort of meaning to it, and I suppose it's up to them to decide whether they're to determine what that meaning is or not, but anyone who likes anything likes it for a reason which may or may not be deep-seated. That's an inevitable element of human existence.

[Ambergold43]

Ambergold, you make interesting points. You list the problems that women face and deny the "inner female," and go on to say that crossdressing is a way for us to escape the problems that men face. But I'm afraid that while you were listing the negative social implications of being female and the responsibility of power and privilege of being male, you have forgotten the virtues of femininity.

I believe that within each person exists a range of emotions. Men and women each feel these same emotions, but it is culture that determines which of these are "appropriate" to express. The expression of these emotions are generally encouraged to be expressed along binary lines (men = hard and pragmatic & women = "soft" & "nurturing"). This is the foundation for gender, which is essentially just rules for behavior that are culturally dictated for men and women. All we have when we are born is our body, the rest is culturally determined. So I would argue that virtues of femininity aren't real but are culturally constructed ideals.


Women may not (generally) have the physical "power" that males have (an overrated thing) but in their softer frames exists a subtle and mysterious power which is greater and more beautiful than the brutish muscle of a macho man. Femininity involves such things as empathy, nurturing, healing, grace, and all manner of such things which should be regarded as general virtues rather than signs of weakness. Females have as much responsibility as men do. As for social privileges and expectations, that is only a social construction which, while having real implications, has no inherent truth or cosmic validity. The social inferiority of women (which is in decline) has nothing to do with the inherent qualities of femininity, but rather the witless thinking of men through the ages.

Women, as a gender, have neither the power nor the privilege that men do in our society. If they did, there would be no women's movement or feminist movements. Women are not paid as much as men for the same work, their bodies are not respected politically in the same way that men's are... that is to say, their bodies and sexuality are political, and there are many more examples I could list. I am not using the term "power" to imply physical power (There are many women who could kick my butt for sure), I'm talking about social power and privilege, a very real thing.


The inner female may not be present in you, but would you deny the reality of the trans community? Are all transwomen simply looking to divest themselves of male responsibilities? In truth, they take on more hardship than any other man could ever know (that is, those who pursue transition). Gender is not black and white, but a fluid spectrum.

I don't deny the reality of the trans-community, and I don't claim to understand the unimaginable hardships associated with being a transsexual person. However, gender IS a fluid spectrum as you say, so how then can someone be a trans-anything when the line between genders is so blurry to begin with? To me, trans-anything seems to reinforce a binary definition of gender.

I think we associate images and characteristics with "inherent" traits, which leads us to name those feelings that we don't associate with male-ness as female. So yes, I believe that some people may be more comfortable expressing those feminine virtues that you mentioned if they look and feel the part. It's like getting into character for a play - after all, gender is nothing but a performance anyway.

[busker]

We've had countless threads discussing why members crossdress, with a wide variety of answers, such as: it gives comfort, or it is relaxing, it brings joy, it is exciting, it brings happiness, I enjoy being feminine, I want to look beautiful, I hate the way I look as a guy, it is sexual, it is sensual, it makes me feel like myself, it feels normal for me, I have a degree of feminine identity ... and other reasons I'm sure I missed.

I can understand all of the above reasons, since they either describe deeper motives, or the payoff for dressing. They describe the feelings that individuals get when they dress and we all know that our behaviors are motivated by the prospect of a reward or a punishment. We tend to do things that feel good (eat, sleep, earn incomes, engage in hobbies, be altruistic and help others, crossdress, engage in other pleasant activities, etc). And we tend to not do things that feel bad. Either way, the feeling that we anticipate getting will influence whether we will choose to do something or not.

But, there are also reasons that I don't understand and they're not reasons, really. They don't indicate how exactly the crossdresser benefits from dressing. These reasons are: "I just like women's clothes. They feel nicer or softer than men's clothes. Women's clothes have a wider variety of styles and colors. Women are allowed to wear pants so why can't men wear skirts." I might even add "It makes me feel good" to this list, since saying this is rather non-descriptive.

Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"? Surely the payoff must be large indeed to risk all those things? Is there no need at all to be feminine, or is it really just because women's clothes come in prettier colors and feel softer?

… which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

Reine, first off, there is the great distaste for labels and having to explain away the 2nd category could mean labels. It is easier as a cd to cd justification for being a crossdresser, perhaps. You have to remember that you are one of the few women here that take part in the discussion--this is mostly a "men's club". Men are not very good at revealing their inner thoughts even among their families, not to mention their wives. Is it something that they think their wives will understand and apprecieate? possibly. Does your SO ever give you one of those reasons?
The curious thing for me, is that if CDs are emulating women, they really should be wearing flip-flops, jeans, a t-shsirt or hoodie, no make-up--because that is what I see for the most part in my town of 200K. If wonderful patterns, colors, cuts and fabrics were really as important to women as male CDs seem to think they are, why on earth would they be dressing in the casual way that they do?
Another expanation is that when men do things like hobbies, etc, it has to be the best. No budget stuff. If it is a camera, it had better be the best/the most expensive they can afford (and I have known shutterbugs with that attitude) or if it is rc airplanes, it has to be big--it has to have 4 motors, top of the line rc equipment, in short a 1 inch to the foot scale B-17. It is what MEN DO, regardless that they may have "feminine fellings". If it is a bio-chemical thing or even epigenetic, then the clothes shouldn't matter, because it doesn't seem to mater to real women either. What to MtF TS say about clothing? since they feel like women from the start, then clothing should have little bearing on what they do.
It could be some form of rationalization for some inner feelings that would indicate being gay was a non-starter for that person. I have read of a study recently that more than half of a group of TS said they wanted to "switch over" because it was easier than accepting the fact that they were gay.
The mind is one hell of an organ because it can rationalize faster than a speeding bullet.
Why do I do it? great question,but it doesn't include frills. I wear women's pants,. socks, undies, a bra due to my gynecomastia during the day in my normal activities,. , and heels in the house when I'm home because I DO LIKE THEM and they take away the ache of plantar fasciitis that I normally have when wearing regular guy shoes. I think hormones are very much a part of my dressing and feelings and perhaps some psychological reasons from childhood but I don't think that is everything to explain it away. Could be that my brain wasn't entirely masculinized while in fetal state but I can't say.
Clothing for everyone is an outward expression and unfortuntely for men, women's clothing is largely taboo which is the reason that if we just crossdress (rather than femulate), we may have more success and be acceptable in POLITE society. The other curious question is that when we androgynous or unisex styles, why does it always tend to go towards the MALE styles? In sci-fi everyhting is always coveralls, or head-to toes stick-on clothing. what happened to women in the process? Did they just become men? Why doesn't unisex go to skirts and blouses for everyone? Surely it can't be cost!

[JadeEmber]

Remember, there are lots of reasons. People often try to say that there is only one reason, or maybe two, and people just deny it (ie, I can't be a fetishist, that's weird, or I'm not on my way to being fully tg, that's weird, etc., etc.,), but I wouldn't say so. I'm pretty sure there are _at least_ four totally separate reasons I can think of. Maybe more.

As to it being viewed as such as big deal, though, I dunno. _Dungeons & Dragons_ is a pretty big deal breaker to many people. Playing games like _World of Warcraft_ and _Everquest_ have broken up marriages. Sure, it's not the same thing, I'm just saying people will do things they enjoy even if society sometimes views them negatively, especially if they can find people who feel the same as they do (ie, anyone on this forum). It's not like people are doing something damaging to anyone. There's an impulse within people to just reject taboos like that. Bear in mind, people who actively crossdress for various reasons, as opposed to just wear panties once or twice as a lark, are probably not that common. So there's a selection criteria involving anyone who reaches a point that they would identiy _as_ a crossdresser. I suspect if there wasn't a taboo, it would be far more common.

As a thought, though, for motivation, consider this, especially as it relates to "disorder". "Introversion personality disorder" often comes up as a mental disorder; it often gets put up for inclusion in the DSM and APA. Now, there are extremes, but the root is that historically being an introvert has been seen societally as "wrong." People should be extroverts. And yet we know that some people "energize" by being allowed time to be alone, whether they read, watch movies, play games, paint, whatever. Introverts often feel immense pressure to act like extroverts, especially in work environments, since the extroverted people rise to positions of leadership. This is exhausting for them and unnatural. Obviously, the negative view of introversion is not seen as strongly as what I'm about to talk about, it's a more commonly understood phenomen, however.

Our society, possibly due to biological tendencies and partially due to culture, suggests that many alpha-type behaviors are seen as being "male" and many group-cooperative behaviors are seen as "female." However, what if it's a bit like introversion/extroversion? Maybe not all males are pure alpha -- in fact, psych tests show that they are not. If they were, being an alpha all the time would energize them, but we all know that work is exhausting for many people, even when doing non-menial jobs. Acting in the manner that society deems "proper" is perhaps unnatural for many people. So, some people, at some point, realize that they can escape this "unnaturalness" by crossdressing. Imagine if introversion was a taboo, and it was considered freakish to read books by yourself. One still might imagine people carefully doing so, making up excuses that they were at Bob's party to Pete and Pete's party to Bob, just so they could relax. Again, though, I do not suggest this is a universal answer, it is just one.

As a related aside, while alpha behavior is consistently seen as better, there is research that more woman (non-alpha behaviorists) increase the social intelligence of groups (the capacity of groups to solve problems). http://www.niemanlab.org/2011/05/mit-management-professor-tom-malone-on-collective-intelligence-and-the-genetic-structure-of-groups/ It is good to question the assumptions of proper behavior. As a whole, we humans have been shown to do many things inefficiently over time, especially as we grow further afield from our ancient styles of life.

Anyway, tis a thought.

[Jaymees22]

In my case it makes me feel better than I've ever felt in my life, its that simple. Jaymee

[SarahMarie42]

Quick clarification for everyone, so that we may avoid arguing over a term which we have not defined.

"Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth."

(Source: American Psychological Association)

We must remember that this term does not, in and of itself, refer to a necessary gender binary. It includes all expressions which may deviate from assigned gender. A man wearing a dress, for the purpose of expressing femininity (<---caveat), is exhibiting a transgender behavior. The word "transgender" does not serve to reinforce the gender binary, but merely uses it as a point of reference in a society which subscribes to it wholly. There's all sorts of blur to the line and overlapping within the transgender category.

I personally believe that we should define it as loosely as possible, while subcategories (transsexual, cross dresser, gender-fluid) are more rigorously defined. Form communities as you must, but do not operate on extremely strict rules as to who can be what. All Reine is asking is "How can x (said gender-deviant behavior) occur as an isolated act when all human behaviors involve intent and symbolism". I know that's a troubling question to many of you, and that you don't want to answer it. You don't have to, she's merely posing it. We all, within this community, have similarities and differences. We should handle discussions of our differences with patience and a desire to inform. No one is attempting to start a labeling war anyone here.

[Michelle (Oz)]

Yep I totally agree. I agree it's all about the illusion, the temporary assuming of a different gender role... the moving from one social status (a man) to another (a woman). That's why I think the appeal of Crossdressing, if not just for the fun of it (which I know too well), is better explained not in terms of expressing some sort of "inner woman," but of the relief of not having to "be a man" or act masculine for a while.

I understand the point you are making Amber and acknowledge the control that wives have over men - the "happy wife, happy life" adage. That doesn't lead me to want to escape the "male world" for that of a female ignoring the benefits of being a male and the disadvantages of being female.

My reasons for going out fully presenting as female and as passably dressed as possible have nothing to do with not wanting to be a man. My dressing is not a form of escapism - I am entirely happy being a man and don't want to change. Indeed, I recognise that I am seen by those with whom I interact as a man in a dress - if nothing else my voice gives me away. This is very liberating for me since I enjoy the interactions in what would otherwise be a quite lonely world of the CDer.

It is something deeper and more complex that drives me.

[Lorileah]

… which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

If it made sense we would not be having this conversation :) My reason is "because....."

[Wildaboutheels]

There is so much info to be found at these Forums if people were just willing to pay attention. How can so many folks who have been here for SO long NOT know where Reine is?

Maybe someone could mention where the pic threads can be found... such as "show us your hands ladies" Or lets see those shoulders, ladies". That would help shed some light on this "mystery".

Someone post a thread titled "show us your sexiest pic ladies" or "show us your hottest shot ladies" and just watch what happens to the views and resposnes. I'll cover the bets.

Guys, it's okay to look at body PARTS and be ABLE to "get excited". It's just Evolution at work and nothing is going to stop or change Evolution. Until such time as Humanity comes up with some type of intervention allowing men to become pregnant, our eyes and brains will remain "quick triggers" to enable us to spread our seed as far and wide as possible with ZERO repercussions for ourselves.

[Ressie]

Why the risk is a good question. I don't know. I don't get it. Maybe not able to admit the real truth about something that has deep emotion connected to it.

[Eryn]

Reine, that is definitively a $64,000 question!

When I started down this path I definitely thought that it was about the clothes. It was so exciting to assemble a wardrobe and that task definitely entertained me and continues to do so. Going out dressed was also exciting, first in fearing the worst and then in the realization that it wasn't really such a big deal.

As I learned more about "girl world" I realized that one thing I perceived but didn't consciously understand was the closer modes of social interaction that GGs take for granted. Male interaction always involves a certain level of aggressiveness and competition whereas females tend to cooperate and be more nurturing with each other. I have come to realize that preference for the latter mode of interaction is a part of my TG-ness.

I think that the clothes are a symbol of an ideal. I envy women their socialization ability. I'd love to be able to participate in that but as I cannot pass 100% I have zero chance of acceptance in the GG mainstream. The only thing that comes close is CDing events and of course the clothes can be a big part of that.

[Michelle (Oz)]

That's a very interesting perception Eryn.

[Pythos]

I am really surprised a person that is so well versed would have such confusion and seeming objection to the idea that someone can just like the clothing.

I LIKE THE CLOTHING, and related styles. Period end of subject.

Now, I will add the caveat, I am of a mind that works like both male and female, I am mentally in many ways what my ex stated she was physically. I find the clothing women get to wear to be much "funner" and creative in many ways than male styles. Males styles also are more centered around power of some type (yes I realize the same can be said about female styles as well) and that power is often violent in some way. (not always mind you ).

But, that being said.....why does it matter? Why let this bug you? Does the fact I prefer skirts to pants, and would only transition if I felt it was the only way to make it in life affect you in anyway negatively at all?

That is the important thing that I am realizing more and more. As long as no one is hurt, financially, mentally, or physically, (unless that person is being rotten to others) then it should not bother you.

[bridgetta]

There is a few things that happen

1. Were wired withna percentage of femme brain
2. We love and arevattracted tomwomen and somethingnhappens where itnseems natural to do what you oove
3. It is healthier, In mens loose clothes i walk clumsily, the ttention to dress actually creates a meditative heling space where i am in tune with my body. If a man wlks thru a room we are likely to bump in ot a chair to get it out of the way. A woman will calmly walk around it. Which is better?

[Marleena]

Why is the sky blue? N/m that one is easy to find out.:) Good luck getting to the bottom of this Reine.

[LaraPeterson]

Almost 80 responses and no answer to the original question. Why do some CDers reason that they dress just because they think that women's clothes are nicer? All the discussion thus far portrays many good reasons but not the one in question. Could it be simply because they choose to wear clothes that seem to them to be nicer than men's clothing?

In other threads, CDs who frequent this site have so stated. That being the case, why choose to "debunk" the real perception of someone who is offering their opinion based upon what they think. Just because you don't like the answer, Reine, does not make it untrue. Your whole premise seems to me to be more than a bit rude and condescending.

I AM a crossdresser; I AM qualified to make this assertion. I've been a CD at all sorts of levels for many years like others who have offered their sometimes well-studied opinions. Your perception of self and words used to describe it may well be set in stone. I can tell you from a lifetime of experience and personal interviews with many, many transgendered people that for many of us, our perception of self changes quite often.

[CassandraSmith]

I wasn't really speaking for anyone else but myself here and I'm pretty much absolutely certain that I would have taken the blue pill at my conception and chosen female. I know they also face challenges but I've known several that loved being women. For sure, I would have been more successful in finding love as a woman than as a man if my present genetics were roughly the same. There is no question that I would have been highly desireable as a woman not just because I was pretty but because I'm musical, good with kids, quiet, can keep busy, etc etc. My dance coach once said that I was what men really wanted once during a lesson. So I'm not just talking of the top of my head here! I would also have had a shot at winning some contests and being a cheerleader too ;-)


Then Cass wrote this:


An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.

This is a common belief of a lot of men; just one of the 'grass is always greener on the other side of the fence' things. Either the man really believes it, or uses the argument to support why he feels envious of being a woman as a valid reason for his crossdressing/TG/TS condition. Of course it's not true, but when searching for a simple reason to enable them to avoid facing their underlying one, it seems lots of men use it. But it's not true; they simply don't want to face reality.

[jayme357]

Reine - to me you have earned the right to ask whatever question you desire. You have been our greatest supporter. You have helped us to work through all sort of conflict. You have been kind and understanding. How can anyone jump on the proverbial bandwagon and criticize all that you have done for us!!!! There are just a handful of ladies on this site whose inputs I would never miss. Friederike, Anne, others, but most significantly, you. I cannot count the times you have clarified issues that we seem to struggle with. The way you can temper a conflict and bring it into focus so we can look at things in a logical, pragmatic way is a gift which which we should all appreciate.

I for one, value your insights, and would be at a loss were you to choose not to participate in this process. You have my thanks and admiration, and I am confident I speak for the majority of us "ladies".

[Jamie001]

As I learned more about "girl world" I realized that one thing I perceived but didn't consciously understand was the closer modes of social interaction that GGs take for granted. Male interaction always involves a certain level of aggressiveness and competition whereas females tend to cooperate and be more nurturing with each other. I have come to realize that preference for the latter mode of interaction is a part of my TG-ness.

I think that the clothes are a symbol of an ideal. I envy women their socialization ability. I'd love to be able to participate in that but as I cannot pass 100% I have zero chance of acceptance in the GG mainstream. The only thing that comes close is CDing events and of course the clothes can be a big part of that.

I love the interaction with GGs and that is the reason that all of my close friends are GGs. I have real communication with GGs that is not possible for me with males. I just can't relate to males on their level. I only have one male friend and he is an intellectual that is somewhat on the feminine side, although he is not TG.

[Angela Campbell]

I don't know about anyone else, but I do it because it makes me look more like a girl.

[Pythos]

See for me the notion of "I feel more like a woman" doesn't work too well for myself. Reason being....because you were born and raised male, you really have no idea what it is like to be a woman other than the social implications of that. Everything you experience is based off your perceptions as a male. Every perception is shaded by your being raised as a male. It is like someone saying " I feel more like a cat when I dress as one".

[Annette Anderson]

The clothes just affirm an innate feminine feeling for me,and that is my reason,or one of them.And everyone else's answers are just as valid,there are no wrong answers.We are talking about personal feelings and preferences,these things are not there to be Debunked.Whoever is trying to "debunk" them is seriously questioning themselves and their motivations.I think for the most part everyone here understands and accepts who they are so that is why some of us don't even understand the question.

[ReineD]

Good Lord, people!!

I didn't expect so many answers! Or so many private messages!

I have not logged in since I started the thread so it will take a while for me to read the *four pages* :eek: of responses.

Thank you all for responding, and I'm looking forward to reading why this question has attracted to much activity. I hope that people aren't bickering over their different points of view. :p

:hugs:

[Jenniferathome]

Man, why all the flack? If your wife asked you this question would you jump down her throat? It's just a question asked honestly and for understanding.

[Marleena]

Good Lord, people!!

I didn't expect so many answers! Or so many private messages!

I have not logged in since I started the thread so it will take a while for me to read the *four pages* :eek: of responses.

Thank you all for responding, and I'm looking forward to reading why this question has attracted to much activity. I hope that people aren't bickering over their different points of view. :p

:hugs:

Reine are you sure you're not a double agent?:heehee:

[Eryn]

Good Lord, people!!

I didn't expect so many answers! Or so many private messages!

I have not logged in since I started the thread so it will take a while for me to read the *four pages* :eek: of responses.

Reine, I'm looking forward to your thoughtful and reasoned response to every post... :)

[Gillian Gigs]

ReineD, good for you, a good question gets a person thinking, a great question starts a fire. Now that the fire is started, the question is who is protesting to much, as the expression goes, "if you throw a rock down a dark alley and something screams, then you know you hit something". I will leave now, to my own self reflection.

[lingerieLiz]

Guilty, I am! I've often used that excuse. I guess that I like feminine things and like to look feminine. As for clothes I understand that many mens clothes are made from the same materials as womens so it can't be the material. Many times it may be the construction of the garment. Some men's things are more comfortable such as seatshirts. Women's are cut shorter. Many times I'll wear a woman's article even if it is not as comfortable, shoes are a good example. Some women's clothes are lighter and move different than their men's counter parts. Silk blouses are a good example.

Maybe it is the endorphins that make us want to repeat the experience. Risk raises the level of endorphins. I admit if two items looked alike I would pick the woman's article. I wear a bra most of the time. I enjoy the essence of fiminity. It has nothing to do with sex, but with mindset.

[busker]

We've had countless threads discussing why members crossdress, with a wide variety of answers, such as: it gives comfort, or it is relaxing, it brings joy, it is exciting, it brings happiness, I enjoy being feminine, I want to look beautiful, I hate the way I look as a guy, it is sexual, it is sensual, it makes me feel like myself, it feels normal for me, I have a degree of feminine identity ... and other reasons I'm sure I missed.

I can understand all of the above reasons, since they either describe deeper motives, or the payoff for dressing. They describe the feelings that individuals get when they dress and we all know that our behaviors are motivated by the prospect of a reward or a punishment. We tend to do things that feel good (eat, sleep, earn incomes, engage in hobbies, be altruistic and help others, crossdress, engage in other pleasant activities, etc). And we tend to not do things that feel bad. Either way, the feeling that we anticipate getting will influence whether we will choose to do something or not.

But, there are also reasons that I don't understand and they're not reasons, really. They don't indicate how exactly the crossdresser benefits from dressing. These reasons are: "I just like women's clothes. They feel nicer or softer than men's clothes. Women's clothes have a wider variety of styles and colors. Women are allowed to wear pants so why can't men wear skirts." I might even add "It makes me feel good" to this list, since saying this is rather non-descriptive.

Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"? Surely the payoff must be large indeed to risk all those things? Is there no need at all to be feminine, or is it really just because women's clothes come in prettier colors and feel softer?

… which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

Reine, I'm wondering if we perhaps haven't misunderstood what you wanted here. The examples that you give would seem to me--after re-reading your OP -that you are citing explanations rather than reasons. reasons are the basis or cause of something, explanations clarify. for example if you said to someone that they look really femme they might reply it is because they are wearing a dress and their hair is done up and they have jewelry on. This is different from WHY do you dress? I have blue eyes because I have a genetic fault (THE REASON) that creates blue eyes, but it doesn't clarify/explain why I see the world as a depressing place.
The reasons/basis for most people would be difficult to ascertain, the explanations for what people are doing can be as varied as there are people, and they would all be valid. "I yam what I yam" is a facile explanation for doing something, but not the real reason.
This may apply to cross dressers of all stripes.
" what you don't know determines what you think you know, in ways that aren't completely known to you". Howard Rheingold.

[Lorileah]

so let me get this straight, Reine isn't a troll?

Look at how many people she got to answer and how many answers that are all different there are. I would say "well played Reine" :)

Since 50% of the time the clothing I wear isn't what most here think when dressing (I get the clothes from the department in the store that says "Misses...Ok Juniors), it isn't just the clothes. However I do say they are "Just clothes" and nothing magic. But when I do dress, I like to dress to be seen. I can be invisible anytime. No it isn't the fabric, it is how I look. It makes me feel good about me. And that is what is important, that I feel good about me. I don't have to please anyone else.

[Fran Moore]

I'm sorry I can't give you a deeper reason Reine, because I would never make a "stand alone" statement like this. As you know, I consider myself to be TG, so it is much more than just the clothes for me. I could never just "wear the clothes" and be satisfied, because they are "nicer" (even though in most cases they are).

Congratulations on "lighting up" the switchboard" though!

[Foxglove]

Almost 80 responses and no answer to the original question. Why do some CDers reason that they dress just because they think that women's clothes are nicer? All the discussion thus far portrays many good reasons but not the one in question. Could it be simply because they choose to wear clothes that seem to them to be nicer than men's clothing?

But why do these clothes seem nicer to them than men's clothing? You see, this answer doesn't explain CDers. The vast majority of men in this world don't find women's clothes nicer. So what makes CDers different?

I don't wear women's clothing because I find it nicer. I wear it because it better reflects who I am. But that doesn't explain why I am what I am. The answer, "That's just the way I am," doesn't satisfy me and it wouldn't satisfy many people I've spoken to.

Reine's question is an attempt to get to the real heart of the matter.


In other threads, CDs who frequent this site have so stated. That being the case, why choose to "debunk" the real perception of someone who is offering their opinion based upon what they think. Just because you don't like the answer, Reine, does not make it untrue. Your whole premise seems to me to be more than a bit rude and condescending.



Man, why all the flack? If your wife asked you this question would you jump down her throat? It's just a question asked honestly and for understanding.

I agree, Jennifer. Reine's not being rude and condescending. As far as I'm concerned, it's a question honestly asked and for understanding.

I myself think it's important for us transpeople to understand ourselves as thoroughly as possible. That way we can explain what we are about to sympathetic cispeople. If we don't supply an explanation, it leaves it open to trans-haters to supply their explanation--which they're always happy to do.

I've never lost anybody's sympathy by giving them what information I can about TGism. Are we really going to allow the trans-haters to control the discussion? Here's one for CDers to think about:

Trans-hater: Why do you wear women's clothes?
CDer: I like the feel of it, the colors, the texture, the style of it.
Trans-hater: But why do you like that sort of thing? A normal, healthy male doesn't.
CDer: Don't ask rude, useless questions. That's just the way it is.
Trans-hater: OK. I won't ask any more questions. You're not like a normal, healthy male. You're sick, you're a pervert. That's just the way it is.

Is that the way we want to let the discussion go? I want to do better than that. That's why I look for explanations. That's why I want to know as much as I can.

When I have an argument with a trans-hater, I won't convince him. But by giving as much information as I can, I have a chance of winning over the neutrals who are following the argument. You give them knowledge so that they won't be won over by ignorance.

Annabelle

[Frédérique]

Debunking: "I like women's clothes"

The title bothers me...:hmph:

It would have been a LOT better if you had written Questioning: “I like women’s clothes” rather than use the extremely insensitive and hurtful word “debunk.” Your poorly-chosen word, in this instance, infers a desire to discredit MtF crossdressers who like dressing, period. Why would you wish to do that? Pretty much everybody laughs at us, from SO’s, to confused girlfriends, to loved ones (bingo!), to media pundits, to societal watchdogs, to the man (and woman) in the street, so why must you join the chorus of negativity? You’re trifling with us. You’re dealing with us if our feelings were of little importance or worth. Debunk is a word used by people who are unable to see reality from a point of view other than the one they were indoctrinated into from childhood – you’re ridiculing us, in other words, and I fail to see why. An expression like, “I like to wear women’s clothes,” is not some kind of exaggerated claim, it’s a simple statement of fact – there’s nothing to debunk, but you, in your infinite GG wisdom, has to step in and spoil the party. Are we MtF crossdressers bugging you?

You know, they say that truth lies at the bottom of a well. I assume you do not wish to enter that well, go all the way to the bottom, get your feet wet, and SEE the truth, so you prefer to casually peer into the well, take a quick glance, and make up your mind about something. That’s all well and good, but I would expect something a little better from YOU, a moderator (now a debunkerator) on a forum for crossdressers. I know you’re posting here as a member, but I must question your motives. Look – I’m saving you the trouble from having to go down into the well of truth by giving you a simple explanation why some of us crossdress, M to F, and gain pleasure from it. It’s not the ONLY explanation, but it seems to be the least appreciated pronouncement by those who wouldn’t know about such things. I fail to see the logic of your debunking exercise, unless you’re stirring the pot to see who agrees with your assessment – crossDRESSING says it all at times, without any further need for clarification, but why must you "campaign" against simple truths? It’s NOT helping, to say the least…

A smilie for you: :stirthepot: Is that what you want?

[Foxglove]

Hi, Freddy! I think I'd agree with you about this word "debunking". Reine could perhaps have chosen a better word. But one word doesn't invalidate a useful post.




An expression like, "I like to wear women's clothes," is not some kind of exaggerated claim, it's a simple statement of fact . . .

Yes, Freddy, it is a simple statement of fact which nobody is questioning. It's not, however, an explanation. That's the question being raised on this thread: what's the explanation of this simple fact?


You know, they say that truth lies at the bottom of a well. I assume you do not wish to enter that well, go all the way to the bottom, get your feet wet, and SEE the truth, so you prefer to casually peer into the well, take a quick glance, and make up your mind about something.

On the contrary, I think she is trying to get to the bottom of the well. She's asking why we do what we do. That question doesn't offend me. I wish I understood fully why I do what I do, why I am what I am. I, as a transperson, would love to be able to explain to her, as a cisperson, why I am what I am. Isn't this what we transpeople want--understanding? Well, a cisperson has now asked for help in understanding. Why not help her out?

I don't see any condemnation in her post. I've never seen any condemnation in any of her posts. Her OP is saying that the normal explanations of CDing that she sees don't satisfy her because they don't go deep enough, they don't go to the heart of the matter. I'd agree with her on that. I'm looking for real, deep, satisfying answers myself. Not everybody is. That's up to them. But I don't see why a request for such answers should offend anybody.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Raychel]

No big elaborate answer for me, I have a simple mind, no deep thoughts here.
Simple I like the feeling of the clothes better then my mens clothes.
Been wearing blue collar uniforms for 40 years and I like to step outside the norm sometimes.
I always have been a little differant. :heehee:

[ReineD]

Thank you so much, everyone, for your responses, and for the record: I was not asking why people crossdress! I know many reasons why you do, and because I've literally read tens of thousands of posts here over the years, sometimes I think I have a greater understanding of it than many of the CDers! :p I was rather asking why SOME of the CDers say it is nothing more than liking soft fabric and pretty colors, as if this is on a par with preferring silk over cotton sheets … when they risk so much just to crossdress. Please read my first post. ;)

That said, many of you came up with answers that I did not include in my first paragraph when I started the thread, but that I also know to be reasons for dressing, so I'll list them here to keep them all in one place. Some of these are different ways of saying the same thing. I'm paraphrasing so as to not clutter this post with too many quotes, but you'll recognize yourselves when you read this: :)


Dressing gives me the permission to not be macho, not act male, and not be strong.
I dress precisely because they are women's clothes and this is what makes it so magical for me, because wearing the clothes makes me feel as close to being feminine as possible.
It's programmed into my genes and it is instinctive.
Saying "I just like the clothes" was a simple way for me to downplay it to my family at first, when I came out to them.
It is sexual when younger, and then the brain learns to associate the look and feel of wearing female clothing with sexual gratification. It rewires the brain, like Pavlov's dog experiment.
It's about divesting oneself of the power, privilege, and responsibility (and the stress that comes along with it) that masculinity provides and demands.
It's a degree of GID. I have a need to dress even though it is not enough to want to live full time or transition.
It became a psychological addiction after I started dressing.
Maybe it has to do with the endorphins!


AND … this is another honest reason that doesn't downplay anything, which is what my SO told me in the beginning:


I just don't have an answer.



Could it be that they just don't need to?

I can understand someone not wanting to explain why they crossdress. Such people can simply say that they do not want to discuss their motives. Or as mentioned above, that they simply do not know why they feel compelled to dress. But, they don't need to downplay or minimize it, not in a forum where others come for answers. Does it do a newbie any good to read posts that minimize motives, which might absolve him from seeking deeper answers if he is in a relationship where the deeper answers are requested?


and the one thing you left out , To feel normal , I am sure that most females have exactly the same reasons for liking to wear certain types of clothing and for some unknown reason there seems to be a growing number of males that have a similar reason to do the same yet society makes us have to explain why, maybe that is the unfair bit about cross dressing

Joanne, I did mention "feeling normal" in my OP. CDers who feel this way are also saying they dress for identity reasons. But to address your comment about GGs also wanting to "feel normal" as a motive for choosing what to wear, I've got to say that no, it's not the same thing. I always "feel normal" no matter how I dress. I dress in gender appropriate clothing no matter how fancy, casual, or even sloppy they may be. I choose different outfits based on what is considered acceptable for the venue. If I am painting a room or doing spring cleaning, I will wear any already stained, torn item of clothing that is available even if it is my adult son's discarded shirt, in order to not ruin my good clothes. If I am going for a job interview I will wear skirts & blazers with blouses. If I'm going out on a date with a guy that I want to impress, I'll wear something sexy. If I'm feeling down and want to lift out of it, then I'll suggest a fancy restaurant to my SO. Or, if I'm single, I'll call up a girlfriend and ask if she wants to come with me to a fancy night club. I would not go to my room and put on a glitzy gown by myself. Doing this would be meaningless without a place to go to.

My clothing choices are based on what is considered acceptable or desirable for what I DO and where I GO. Alone and my myself, I wear comfy, easy wash clothes and no makeup. THIS is what is normal for me. Contrary to popular belief, wearing makeup is not actually the default, "normal" thing to do. :p It is not about putting on clothes that will make me feel any differently than I already feel. In my example above about putting on the glitz to get out of a depressive mood, it is the place I'd go to and the people there, that would accomplish this much more than the clothes. The clothes are just the ticket, if you will, to get me in the door. If I were to dress in clothing that most people would recognize as men's clothes (real men's clothes :p), I'd stress myself out! I wouldn't want people to think me odd, and this is because I'm not gender non-conforming. If I were, then the benefits of self-expression would far outweigh the potential negatives of other people's judgments.



You know, I get the feeling that you don't like US... :sad:

Yes, I do like you and all the other members here. I also love my SO who does what you do, although s/he identifies as a crossdresser who is dualgender. :)

Please don't mistake my inability to understand the "It's just about the clothes" motives, with a dislike for crossdressers. I started this thread precisely because I do want to understand the members who say they dress in women's clothing simply because they like a variety of colors and fabrics, when there are similar colors and fabrics found in men's clothes. +?

The biggest sticking point for me is that a crossdresser risks a great deal in order to either go out in public or remain closeted, if this is "just" about an appreciation for the colors and fabrics. Being closeted alone causes stress and discomfort, since a crossdresser is bound to not be able to indulge when plans are thwarted for unforeseen reasons. There are many stories on this board about tempers escalating when a CD cannot dress and he cannot tell anyone what he needs or wants to do. There are other stories about crossdressers who can't wait until their wives or kids leave so they can dress! This sort of dynamics is bound to be felt by a perceptive wive and eventually this does erode the trust or the closeness between a couple. There are indeed things to lose by doing this.

So can you see why it is so difficult to understand when a member makes it seem as if the activity is nothing more serious than a mild preference, a "take it or leave it" activity? An analogy: I like wild blueberry pie. But, if eating wild blueberries had negative consequences for me, if for example they were on the endangered species list and there were stiff fines for indulging, or if I were allergic to blueberries, or if my family was allergic to blueberries (like some peanut allergies) and I could not have them in the house, I would not eat them! Nor would I eat them in hiding. I would cultivate other preferences, so as to not experience distress over my inability to eat the blueberries. I would eat peach pie, which I also love. I do not NEED to eat blueberries!

You mention that women's clothes reveal. If you mean that the clothes are a symbol for the stereotypical feminine characteristics that you wish to cultivate or celebrate in yourself, or if you enjoy the female curves these clothes give you, as mfakley (#45) suggests, then you would not be downplaying it by stating this as your reason. At least it would be better than a CDer who says that he just likes silk and pink. If, however, you mean revealing the body in a sexual manner, then this would indicate a wish to entice a man, which is why women dress provocatively. This would again be a better reason than the CDer who says that he enjoys pink and cashmere … since there ARE pink, cashmere men's sweaters too. :)

You mention fetish. If the fetish is sexual, then I do understand dressing for orgasmic relief. The drive for sex is powerful indeed and people will risk certain things for sexual gratification. But if the motive is fetish, then why say that is is "just" about the clothes? Barring going overboard with it to the point where it has a negative impact, is there anything wrong with having a sexual motive for wearing women's clothes?

I can also understand if the need to dress is similar to a shopping addiction or compulsion. We have fetish/compulsive members here and I've no trouble understanding why they do this. I was once addicted to a substance and I KNOW how difficult it is to control those impulses and I admire members when they're honest about having such motives. But to just say, "Oh, I only like the colors or the fabrics" just doesn't make sense. An addict who snorts coke would seem awfully silly if he said, "Naaah. I'm not addicted. I just like the color or the feel of the powder", or, "It just makes me feel good". :strugglin



It would have been a LOT better if you had written Questioning: “I like women’s clothes” rather than use the extremely insensitive and hurtful word “debunk.” Your poorly-chosen word, in this instance, infers a desire to discredit MtF crossdressers who like dressing, period.

First, I haven't been a mod here for over six months. You'll note the absence of any moderator identification under my user name and in my signature.

Second, I'm sorry that you don't like my word. But I assure you that it is not an attempt to discredit anyone. Of course, crossdressers enjoy wearing clothes. If they didn't, they wouldn't now would they? I specifically questioned the sole motive of dressing merely because of a preference for certain colors and fabrics, when similar colors or fabrics are available in men's clothes.

I really do like you, Freddy, and I wish you would stop projecting everything that you've suffered in your personal life and in your community (which I know is biased and unforgiving), onto me.

Also, you can read my last comment to Pythos two posts down, for my fundamental motive in wanting to open this up for discussion.

It was an honest question, Freddy, and if you've read all the responses you'll see that quite a few of the CDers also question the enjoyment of just the clothes as the sole motive, and it's a shame that you see me as stirring the pot, especially after my history here. You need only look at my post history to see how trollish are all my other posts and threads.



Frankly though I don't know why I dress at such a high cost ...

Exactly. Yes, there has been a high cost for you. And even though you don't know what motivates you, you do not say that you dress just because you like soft fabrics and pretty colors.



I think saying as a cross dresser I just like the feel or look of the clothing is some sort of self denial. Now, I do not really have a clue why I like to emulate women. I never was 'feminized' by an older sister or cousin or aunt or my mother. I have no excuse. I have no reason. I don't know why.

Years ago my wife did buy me men's underpants and lounging pants in sensuous fabrics. It is not work. It's not the same as women's clothing. She bought a length of lingerie fabric to rub over my body in bed in lieu of a nylon gown. It did not work. It wasn't the same.

Precisely. It's not at all about soft fabrics and pretty colors. :)

[ReineD]

An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.

I'm saying this with kindness: I appreciate that you enjoy being feminine, but you're idealizing what a woman's life is. I was not pampered and cared for, and neither are the many divorced women/single mothers in our country who struggle to make ends meet with not enough child support money. No one buys them nice things and takes them away for nice vacations, or does their heavy chores. Also, women can't be emotional on the job any more than men can. If they are, they'll be seen as not able to cope and they'll get passed over for promotions. We women must also be strong for our children. Kids are able to understand when either dad or mom are sad, but it's hard on them to see either parent cry.

As to being taken sexually, this is a fun fantasy if she's into it with a loving partner. But, it's not fun when it's "slam bam thank you ma'am" and he habitually ignores her emotional needs, which happens more than you care to imagine in long term marriages, or when she is raped which also happens a lot in this country and throughout the world, or when she is treated horribly in an abusive marriage and treated even worse in parts of the world where her gender role is seen as legally and socially beneath a man's position. Just saying, it's not all roses. Both genders have equally their advantages and disadvantages, and not one gender is preferable to another.


Women may not (generally) have the physical "power" that males have (an overrated thing) but in their softer frames exists a subtle and mysterious power which is greater and more beautiful than the brutish muscle of a macho man.

I agree with all your points except this one. Woman's beauty vs. man's is not absolute. I suspect that I see much greater beauty in men than you do. :) This is not just sexual. There's something about a man's essence that compliments my own and that I feel is immensely attractive.



I don't deny the reality of the trans-community, and I don't claim to understand the unimaginable hardships associated with being a transsexual person. However, gender IS a fluid spectrum as you say, so how then can someone be a trans-anything when the line between genders is so blurry to begin with? To me, trans-anything seems to reinforce a binary definition of gender.

I think we associate images and characteristics with "inherent" traits, which leads us to name those feelings that we don't associate with male-ness as female. So yes, I believe that some people may be more comfortable expressing those feminine virtues that you mentioned if they look and feel the part. It's like getting into character for a play - after all, gender is nothing but a performance anyway.

I have to say that your understanding of gender and gender issues is remarkable!! You're voicing something that is difficult for many people in this community and among cisgenders to understand. You're not by any chance a sociologist are you?

I'm very happy for your participation in this thread.

There are so many CDers who believe or at least who say that they are women, once they realize that dressing is more than sexually motivated, or when they develop a sort of obsession with it even if this lasts several years. And it can take years and perhaps broken marriages before they realize that gender is not binary and they do, in fact, fit somewhere in the middle. The actual incidence of true transsexuality is quite rare, and it is evident among small children who are adamant, before they begin grade school, that they are not the gender their parents say they are. And also among some people who discover this a little later, but who are just as adamant about who they are and they never veer from this certainty. This doesn't mean there aren't people who start out sexually during their teenage years and who eventually modify their bodies partially hrough HRT and perhaps small breast growth, but who choose to not take it all the way. Or, those who do go ahead with SRS but who discover their life is not what they thought it would be, since transition did not "make" them a woman and they do not feel any differently than they felt before. Or who discover after having lived years as women, that finding long term partners as transwomen is a great deal more difficult than originally anticipated, and this can be devastating if this was an important reason to transition. We need so much education in this community and I wish there was a way to help people get a better handle on their feelings of gender non-conformity. It might save many marriages and many future disappointments.

This part of the discussion isn't directly related to the CDers who do not wish to examine any personal gender non-conformity (or who do not wish to say that dressing is sexually motivated, or a non-sexual compulsion ... if this is the case). But, I've often wondered if the inability to recognize a gender state that is in between being traditionally male and traditionally female is made more difficult by all the CDers who insist that they are traditionally female when the dressing stops being sexual for them. It's as if it has to be either black or white, with nothing in between.


there are a lot of people who will fall apart if we push them too hard, and be forced to accept the reality of why they crossdress. We're brought up brainwashed by our parents and society to believe certain things; and our entire reality is based on our beliefs.

This may indeed be the strongest motive for not wanting to examine the deeper reasons for crossdressing, no matter what the reasons are: whether it is recognizing inner gender non-conformity, or recognizing that it is a fetish, or even that it is a compulsion. Being gender non-conforming can be scary since people think it "must" mean they are women. There's also a great deal of negative bias against any type of fetish in our society. And, everyone knows that compulsions or addictions are not healthy if they are taken too far and to admit to one might mean having to taking steps to stop doing something that is pleasurable.

[ReineD]

But, that being said.....why does it matter? Why let this bug you?

It doesn't bug me, Pythos.

The discussion is an attempt to move forward as a community in terms of common and individual understanding. We've had a lot of similar threads over the years, and if you were to go back and read what members wrote five years ago compared to now, you'd see that overall, people's understanding of themselves and their ability to communicate who they are, what they need, and what it takes to navigate the cross-gender expression successfully in relationships has improved tremendously.

And this, everyone, is what it will take in order to move forward as a community into the mainstream, and obtain wider recognition and acceptance. Crossdressers cannot expect people to understand what they're all about if they don't probe enough to understand it themselves.

[Joanne f]

Thank you so much, everyone, for your responses

Joanne, If I were to dress in clothing that most people would recognize as men's clothes (real men's clothes :p), I'd stress myself out! I wouldn't want people to think me odd, and this is because I'm not gender non-conforming. If I were, then the benefits of self-expression would far outweigh the potential negatives of other people's judgments.. :)

Yes I can understand that and that is why a none Cd/Tg will ever understand that sometimes the simplest of reasons are quite often the only reasons and I doubt that you have ever been on the receiving end of other peoples negative judgements, I have and it is not pleasant it can scar you mentally , I have a 25 cm real scar and I would much prefer that than what society can throw at you when you are considered to be not normal so I can well understand why you do not understand why we do it ,it just feels normal and to actually feel normal I guess that you have to experience not feeling normal so put on those men's clothe's for a day then when you go back to your normal clothe's you will have some idea of what it is like :D

[ReineD]

I actually have been on the receiving end of bias. I won't get into it here, but I've had people whisper behind my back and some stopped wanting to have anything to do with me (or their kids have anything to do with mine) when they discovered that I was in recovery for an addiction, even when it had been years. I was seen as an "undesirable" by a select group of unenlightened and ignorant people. :p I was able to blow it off eventually, but this was very difficult in the beginning.

Anyway, I know what you meant by wearing women's clothes because it feels normal to you. This is because it is a part of who you are. You are not saying that you dress just because you like the colors and the fabrics. But you also said that the reason GGs "like to wear certain types of clothing" is that it makes us feel normal too. I was pointing out that wearing certain clothes (the prettier things?) doesn't make us feel any more normal than wearing different clothes (the not so feminine things?), or than we feel when we are naked. :)

[Marleena]

I think for a small group here it is just the clothes. When you add fake boobs, makeup and a woman's wig I believe there is more to it. It is a transformation! I see a lot of denial here. I wanted to know why and found there was much more to it for me. I know most Cder's are not TS but there is more to it. We have men here transforming into looking like women and getting extreme pleasure from it but don't question their masculinity or call some transgender.:)

Not being critical here because I have been there done that.

[Fran Moore]

And this, everyone, is what it will take in order to move forward as a community into the mainstream, and obtain wider recognition and acceptance. Crossdressers cannot expect people to understand what they're all about if they don't probe enough to understand it themselves.


This is exactly why I value your opinions and input here Reine. Thankyou.

[CassandraSmith]

I'm saying this with kindness:

It's OK but I'm really certain on this. I watched my mom struggle with everything you're talking about and I would still take that life over mine as a guy. In fact, my mom, has dealt with all of it really raising me as a single parent. I'm not glamourizing the life of women but if you knew my life, you would see that I'm not fantasizing about this stuff. Life as a woman would be about 100 times as fulfilling for who I am.

I do deal with it as a loss of sorts. There's two kinds of loss and the other is not getting the things we needed. I'm not talking about wanted, I'm talking about needed. The grieving processing involves anger and coming to terms with it too and I've done a lot of work in therapy on this stuff for several years. BTW, this has nothing to do with regret and many people are confused about this. Grieving is absolutely necessary to travel through and I suspect is the final frontier for a lot of CDers as they find their way to their true selves. I don't think that anyone here is doing this flippantly; we all know that there's something profoundly different about us from regular people even if it's just a pair of panties and a bra for some.

Please understand that I know myself pretty well at this point and what's real for me.

On the bright side, my ministry at church has bridged this gap quite a bit and I have responsibilities there that I love. In that environment, my feminine side (carefully presented) is allowed to emerge and it's been like heaven. I told them that I was weird when they asked me to join and I said I wouldn't go into detail but that I'm definitely different. I talked to them quite a while before committing to them and they've made it clear that I'm accepted. This is a first though as I've never really allowed anyone to get that close in quite that way before. I work with a leader who is a very tomboyish and attractive lady also and we fit well together (though she is not my type to date and she's married already).

[bobbimo]

WOW Freddie, that's the shortest email I've ever seen you write!
But I fully appreciate Reine's wonder. My wife is the same way, and there are millions more out there that cant give a definitive answer either.
I enjoy dressing because its a wonderful DIY project. I love fixing things and making wrecks become functional.
The feeling of picking out an outfit, doing make up, hair, shoes and jewelry, and being happy with the reflection in the mirror is just amazing.
The only close experience I can relate, is when I drive my old Mazda PU, it serves its purpose and there is no hurry, or much fun in going down a long wide stretch of highway. However give the same stretch of highway in my Vette.... well the road just has to be driven!
For me dressing is a drive in my Vette, makes me smile and what a thrill.
Bobbi

[Amy Fakley]

wearing certain clothes (the prettier things?) doesn't make us feel any more normal than wearing different clothes (the not so feminine things?), or than we feel when we are naked. :)

You do not need a visual aid to connect with that inner part of yourself. Whatever the heck you want to wear is what you wear. You have complete freedom of choice to the point where the choice doesn't even remotely matter.

Many of the people here (myself included obviously), are disconnected from a part of ourselves that ... while maybe it's always with us in some ways, is not present in the foreground unless we have this symbolic conduit of crossdressing. Speaking of sociology, I imagine this is similar in concept to totems and war paint, and primitive masks, etc.

Accessing that conduit is strictly forbidden by our society at large. There are irreversible, severe consequences if the wrong people know ... so to me ... I cannot even imagine having the freedom of expression you're talking about above, literally it's so foreign to my experience, it just doesn't compute.

that's ... like ... a nugget right at the heart of my experience of this hot mess that I thought worthy of inclusion in this already unbelievably long thread :-)

[ClosetED]

The purpose of the forums, in my opinion, are to allow open discussion. ReineD did that very well by putting forth a comment that many felt a strong desire to comment on in a short period. While no answer applies to all, there were many agreeing with many of the points she hoped to have a discussion on, that both established and new members can benefit from. Not everyone wants to dig deep into understanding but others do, for themselves and to allow them to better explain themselves to others. I wear silky Jockey underwear for men, but it does not have the same meaning to me to connect to the internal feelings. If it is just the feeling of the clothing, then why wigs and makeup? Why do some start with one item and progress to more and more to look more completely like a woman? Does the power to reach that inner person fade and more tokens of femininity are required as sexual gratification desires fade? I am not making any statements that those are truths - just putting forth concepts that some will agree with and others will not. To each his own but hopefully some will take away a bit of self-awareness that were looking for.

[SarahMarie42]

With all of this this mind, I'd like to state that I don't even subscribe to the term "Crossdresser", as it DOES imply that the motivations lie primarily in the wearing of clothing -- it fails to capture the feelings I experience and express. I prefer "part-time t-girl" or "gender-fluid" to "crossdresser" by a large margin. Someone could enjoy "cross dressing" without presenting themselves as a woman, in fact, one could reappropriate and recontextualize articles of feminine clothing in such a way that they might even emphasize a type of virility. "Cross dressing" can be as simple as wearing a skirt instead of pants or wearing a woman's suit for the look of it. "Cross dressing" can also imply a simple fetishism, the enjoyment of an experience arising from association with the article of clothing, BUT I do not feel it applies entirely to people like me. I never introduce myself as a "crossdresser". Reine is merely suggesting that most members of this forum are unlikely to belong to the bare-minimal category of those who "simply like the cut of a woman's suit" or "think earrings look cool with the rest of [their] outfit". I don't know if I've found many people here who belong to that category, so I'm in agreement. I agree with ClosetED that a wig and makeup would be unnecessary to those whose purpose was neither transgender or theatrical as well. It makes little sense to take certain steps without a general purpose.

[Kelley]

Thanks for starting this thread Reine. Eight month ago my wife asked "why women's cloths" and I have been on a quest for answers ever since. This thread is full of great ideas, reasons and theories. I believe at least for me that the answer is to complicated for just one answer. I think I can apply several of the thoughts in this thread to explain why I dress and why only clothes made for women will do.

[MssHyde]

maybe it make me high. don't know, feel a need, a pulling.

[Asche]

But, there are also reasons that I don't understand and they're not reasons, really. They don't indicate how exactly the crossdresser benefits from dressing. These reasons are: "I just like women's clothes. They feel nicer or softer than men's clothes. Women's clothes have a wider variety of styles and colors. Women are allowed to wear pants so why can't men wear skirts." I might even add "It makes me feel good" to this list, since saying this is rather non-descriptive.

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?
Can anyone tell me why "I think that women's clothes are nicer" isn't a perfectly reasonable explanation? If someone tells you they like collecting stamps, or skiing, or playing guitar, do you normally demand some explanation in terms of psychological complexes or something? Or do you simply accept that people have different tastes and different interests, and that some people may find certain things deeply fullfilling that you cannot appreciate in the slightest? Why is what people like to wear somehow not subject to the same laws of diversity?

A generation ago, "reasonable" people were asking the same sort of pathologizing questions about gay people. No one (except other gay people) could understand why anyone would be sexually attracted to members of their own sex other than as a consequence of some deep psychological disturbance or miswiring or something. And gay people who grew up in that environment, in which "I like it" was not an acceptable answer, often came up with all kinds of convoluted theories to justify what they liked. Now that being gay is not seen as quite so sick and perverted as it was when I was young, I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.


Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"?
I can't speak to this from personal experience, since I'm not closeted (except to my workplace), and I have experienced none of these problems.

But history is full of people to whom some interest or desire, whether it be painting, cataloging earthworms, climbing some mountain, or whatever, was so important that they were willing to suffer rejection or abuse to do it. Obviously, the more negative the consequences for pursuing your dream/living your truth, the more important it has to be to you. I don't see why "wearing women's clothes" is fundamentally so different.

At some point, I find this refusal to believe that people could know their own mind better than some stranger who knows nothing about them except what they see in a post a little condescending. It's a widespread attitude here at CD.com (and elsewhere), and most of the people who display it are nowhere near as decent about it as ReineD.

And, since I'm a bit irritated by this, why don't I just play turn-about with this if-I-don't-feel-it-it-must-not-be-real attitude:


Since I cannot for the life of me understand what it means to have a "masculine side" or a "feminine side," there must be some deeper reason why people talk about their "feminine side." It must be a rationalization. My theory is that, since we live in a society in which it is unthinkable for a man to do certain things that society says are for women only, such as wearing pantyhose or skirts, the only way a man who has internalized this attitude can deal with a strong desire to do some "for women only" thing is to imagine that he is two persons: a "male" one that does all the proper male things, and a "female" one that, being female, is allowed to do those "for women only" things. (Saying he has a "male side" and a "female side" is another way of expressing the same process.)

It's a neat theory: it explains what I see here at CD.com, it doesn't require any gender essentialism, and it agrees with my experience of myself, so it must be true. The fact that it may not agree with other people's experience of themselves doesn't matter, because obviously if I don't see it, it must be because they just don't have enough insight, not because my experience isn't universally applicable.

A bit snarky, perhaps, but at some point I get tired of people's assumption that their lack of imagination is my problem to solve. FWIW, it's something I practically never encounter in Real Life (except from the "mental health" profession), but see a lot of here at CD.com.

[SarahMarie42]

Again, to be fair to Reine, she's not attributing cross dressing to a "deep, psychological disturbance", Asche. She is, instead, inquiring as to whether or not there is a psychological causality to cross dressing, which is quite far from pathologizing the behavior, as ALL human actions have some sort of psychological, neurological, or biological cause -- to pretend that they didn't would be to deny causality. If I were to ask the scientific question "Why is x a homosexual? What are the biological and environmental interactions which lead to homosexuality?", I would not be treating it as an illness, I would be making an attempt to better understand human sexuality. To play Devil's advocate with you a bit, why would someone believe that women's clothes are simply nicer? We've addressed the potential tactile motivations for having such a belief, and Reine is quite correct in claiming that all fabrics which are found in women's clothing can also be found in men's clothing. Silk, cashmere, you name it -- it's there for purchase. This rules out a simple tactile motivation. We may claim that an individual prefers women's fashion, that they simply like the look that feminine clothes evince, but what is fashion but an expression of the self? A social and personal signal we use to communicate and feel at ease with our identities? No one who specifically invests effort in fashion does so without having an expressive motivation. So why would these individuals who wear feminine articles of clothing, if they are purely feminine and cannot be imagined to express virility in any context, wear them if not for the purpose of donning a symbol of those things typically associated with femininity? Why adopt the feminine garb if you are not attempting to express the feminine. I think in all of our "jump-the-gun", "I'm-going-to-take-offense-at-anything-which-delves-beyond-this-comfortable-surface" mentality, we've rejected rational thinking.

I will offer you ONE alternative: theatrics and/or the challenge of making one's self look like a woman.

That is all I can see as a motivation excluding the feminine, HOWEVER, there are other means for theatrical behavior as well, so why choose femininity? I would have jumped at the opportunity to play, say, Ophelia, in a traditional all-male Shakespeare production, as I both love acting AND being feminine. In my earlier days, I would have preferred it because it would give me an excuse. Everything has a purpose, that doesn't make it sick or wrong, it makes it an intentional human action.

[Jenniferathome]

If someone tells you they like collecting stamps, or skiing, or playing guitar, do you normally demand some explanation in terms of psychological complexes or something?

Dave, what is it that you like about stamp collecting? It looks boring to me. Bob, why do you like skiing instead of snowboarding? Jane, how did you come to like the guitar instead of the piano or the electric triangle?

Seem like questions I might ask.... and it is not a DEMAND, it's a question. How does anyone learn about another if you don't ask questions?

[Asche]

[Reine] ... is, instead, inquiring as to whether or not there is a psychological causality to cross dressing, which is quite far from pathologizing the behavior, as ALL human actions have some sort of psychological, neurological, or biological cause -- to pretend that they didn't would be to deny causality.
Your hypothesis applies equally to stamp collecting. But I don't see a lot of people asking for deeper explanations of why people like to collect stamps. Or not considering "I just like it" as a sufficient explanation.


If I were to ask the scientific question "Why is x a homosexual? What are the biological and environmental interactions which lead to homosexuality?", I would not be treating it as an illness, I would be making an attempt to better understand human sexuality.
However, if you the scientist have grown up with the idea that there is something unnatural and pathological about homosexuality, you are going to end up posing the question and interpreting your results from a pathologizing perspective without realizing you are doing it. And since the society you are operating in sees the unnaturalness of homosexuality as being as obvious and unquestionable as 1+1=2, your "results" -- whatever they are -- are going to be interpreted as showing that there's something wrong with homosexuals. I'm not theorizing here: I'm describing most of the scientific research on the subject at least up through the 1970's, and the express belief of a substantial minority of the mental health profession even today.

Because of these experiences, a lot of gay people are distrustful of any such research.

BTW: how much scientific research is done to figure out why heterosexuals are heterosexual? Fairly little: because being heterosexual isn't seen as needing an explanation.


why would someone believe that women's clothes are simply nicer?
Why would someone prefer Chopin to LIszt?

Why would someone like blue better than green?

[SarahMarie42]

Let's see, I'm going to respond briefly and systematically.

1. Anyone interested in stamp collecting would ask a question about stamp collecting to determine why someone would do it, perhaps in an exercise to determine the causes of symbolic collecting -- it would answer several questions as to how human beings relate to inanimate objects semiotically

2. People do ask generally how sexual behavior comes to develop and what influences it -- it's just that LGBT behavior, in being less common, is more interesting to many as an area of study -- particularly when there ARE several people who consider it a debauched personal decision. Demonstrating how homosexuality is developmentally and expressively different from being, say, transgendered, helps to clear up a lot of societal misconceptions and conflations.

Secondly, if you believe that a suggestion is "pathological" because it involves a connection with something commonly considered "immoral", you may be the one doing the moralizing -- not the scientist. The scientist would only be moralizing if he/she agreed with greater society on a given moral judgment toward the act or intention.

3. I prefer Chopin to Lizst because I find that I more easily relate to contemplative music than I do vigorous, throbbing music expressive of pure passion and power :] It's part of my personality, which could itself be defined in terms of biological and environmental interactions.

[JadeEmber]

I think for a small group here it is just the clothes. When you add fake boobs, makeup and a woman's wig I believe there is more to it. It is a transformation! I see a lot of denial here. I wanted to know why and found there was much more to it for me. I know most Cder's are not TS but there is more to it. We have men here transforming into looking like women and getting extreme pleasure from it but don't question their masculinity or call some transgender.:)

Not being critical here because I have been there done that.

In short, Marleena, I tend to agree. When it's limited, sure, but when it goes beyond that, it's something else, although I won't say it's "one" thing.

At the risk of annoying people (and fairly), I do think there's denial, and to answer Reine's original question, I think that's part of it. However, the general rule is one shouldn't "out" other people, as it can have bad results. Not that I'm saying anything about specific people! It's just a general sense. And it's possible there are other causes.

It's also true that it was thought bisexual people were really gay but in denial, so maybe it's not what we think it is; maybe it's something else, whatever those options might be.

However, to those critical of Reine's original question, this is one of the most common questions asked by CD'ers of various forms here. It's an obsession with many. Of course, that's why some are tired of it :P

[JadeEmber]

I'm saying this with kindness: I appreciate that you enjoy being feminine, but you're idealizing what a woman's life is. I was not pampered and cared for, and neither are the many divorced women/single mothers in our country who struggle to make ends meet with not enough child support money. No one buys them nice things and takes them away for nice vacations, or does their heavy chores. Also, women can't be emotional on the job any more than men can. If they are, they'll be seen as not able to cope and they'll get passed over for promotions. We women must also be strong for our children. Kids are able to understand when either dad or mom are sad, but it's hard on them to see either parent cry.

This is a good point. I think most people do realize this, but occasionally, one hears this as a motivation. One has to say, it might be a surprise. For some people, of course, female expectations might be a better match for their personality than male expectations, but there's a whole battery of problems one isn't aware of. The shock of not being ready for that is a problem some people face.

[GroovyChristy]

Wow, this thread has really grown. Ambergold, I am sorry if I seemed to have contradicted myself, or if I really have done so. Yes, gender is a spectrum. I think that at the extreme ends of this spectrum can be found examples which, when compared to each other, would seem to display a binary. For example, take Hulk Hogan for an example of the extreme masculine side of the spectrum (absurd I know, but he's all I could think of at the moment) and say, Audrey Hepburn at the extreme feminine end.

Now, I think it's certainly possible that a female could occupy the Hulk Hogan side and that a male could occupy the Audrey Hepburn side as I, too, believe that gender has its basis more in cultural construction than in truth. However, the binary which the two examples could suggest is given great power by its being accepted by society at large, even though its transparency becomes obvious once you consider the people who fall closer to the middle of the spectrum. I admit that I can forget to do this and so the false binary can seem more real. I'm afraid I replied to you a little excitedly, as I was taken aback by the idea that my "cross dressing" (and I agree with SarahMarie's thoughts on the term) is just an attempt to shirk my social expectations as a male. You may be right that it is like that for some, but for me it is much deeper. I had no male societal obligations as a small child. I was allowed to play with Barbies, try on my mom's shoes, etc. and was never encouraged to play sports or any such thing that I was not interested in. But this absence of male expectations for me begs the question, why did I feel such sad longing when I was told at an early age what my name would have been if I was born a girl? And then of course, what does it mean to be trans? If the binary is false, why desire to have been born, or to become a member of the opposite sex? Why can't I just be happy being "feminine" without wishing I had a different body?

I'll be honest, these are difficult questions for me as I have never probed that deep into my mind. Perhaps therapy would bring some clarity, but I do have some ideas. I was very close to my mother as a child, and perhaps I long to be motherly as a result of this. Being pregnant, breastfeeding, all that. Or maybe it's just a chemical thing that I cannot fully understand. Maybe there's more than a little vanity involved as well. Whatever the reason, I fall on the "feminine" side of the spectrum and I feel that women's clothing is more expressive of my personality. I want to look like a woman, if I cannot BE a woman, because that is my ideal self-image. I want the curves and slenderness that women's clothing is often designed to accentuate and reveal.

Reine, your response to me is absolutely correct. While not (usually) being physically attracted to men, I do know plenty of guys who are great friends and have spirits which I wouldn't hesitate to call beautiful. I am afraid that my own dysphoria can cause me to think harshly of the male form. But I can certainly see the appeal of having a strong, protective arm around me.

[Foxglove]

Can anyone tell me why "I think that women's clothes are nicer" isn't a perfectly reasonable explanation?

Yes. "I think that women's clothes are nicer" explains why CDers wear them. But the question here is why CDers find them nicer. Two different questions, one deeper than the other. It is a valid question.


If someone tells you they like collecting stamps, or skiing, or playing guitar, do you normally demand some explanation in terms of psychological complexes or something?

In terms of psychological complexes? No. That's a straw man argument. Neither stamp collecting nor CDing has to be explained in terms of psychological complexes.


Or do you simply accept that people have different tastes and different interests, and that some people may find certain things deeply fullfilling that you cannot appreciate in the slightest?

Yes, sometimes. It depends on whether the question interests me or not. I've never wondered why people like stamp collecting because stamp collecting doesn't interest me. But I have often wondered why people watch so much TV. I've very seldom, if ever, heard anybody say they think TV is wonderful, rewarding. Virtually everyone I've ever spoken to admits that they find TV moronic. Yet they still watch lots of it. So I ask why.


Why is what people like to wear somehow not subject to the same laws of diversity?

My opinion: sex/gender is something very fundamental in people's psychology, in their world-view. We transpeople upset that world view. We disturb cispeople in a very deep way. That's why they question it. But I'm optimistic: as time goes on, as cispeople get used to seeing transpeople and learn more about us, they'll become more accepting of us, and they won't be bothered so much about what we wear.


A generation ago, "reasonable" people were asking the same sort of pathologizing questions about gay people.

You're prejudicing the question here. First, with the word "pathologizing". To ask someone why they do something they do isn't necessarily pathologizing. It can be an honest attempt to get information. I've had cispeople ask me why I do what I do. They were nice people who weren't condemning me in any way. They simply wanted to know.

Second, with your use of the word "reasonable"--as if "reasonable" people of today might be no different from "reasonable" people of a generation ago--as if Reine, for example, is the same sort of person as those who gave LGBT people aversion therapy. She's "reasonable", they were "reasonable", she's asking the same sort of question they did, therefore she must be just like them. Very faulty reasoning.


No one (except other gay people) could understand why anyone would be sexually attracted to members of their own sex other than as a consequence of some deep psychological disturbance or miswiring or something. And gay people who grew up in that environment, in which "I like it" was not an acceptable answer, often came up with all kinds of convoluted theories to justify what they liked. Now that being gay is not seen as quite so sick and perverted as it was when I was young, I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.

A gay person doesn't necessarily know why someone is attracted to a person of the same sex. He obviously understands that people can be, but it doesn't follow from that that he knows why. I know what I feel when I wear women's clothing, but I can't explain why I have those feelings.

To say "This is what I like, this is the way I am" doesn't explain why you are the way you are. The question here is, "Why do you like what you like?" You don't have to see gays or transpeople as sick or perverted in order to ask the question. I don't see myself as sick or perverted, but I would like to know why I am the way I am.

Again, Asche, you're prejudicing the question. You're suggesting that no one would ask this sort of question unless they see LGBT people as sick and perverted. This isn't true.


But history is full of people to whom some interest or desire, whether it be painting, cataloging earthworms, climbing some mountain, or whatever, was so important that they were willing to suffer rejection or abuse to do it. Obviously, the more negative the consequences for pursuing your dream/living your truth, the more important it has to be to you. I don't see why "wearing women's clothes" is fundamentally so different.

Because normally things such as painting, cataloguing earthworms or climbing some mountain don't question people's world view or disturb them as deeply as wearing women's clothing does. Sometimes such activities can. In the arts, e.g., Stravinsky's Rite of Spring caused a riot at its premiere in Paris. In biology, Darwin's views caused and are still causing considerable upset. Question people's deeply held assumptions and they can get upset. That's what CDing does.


At some point, I find this refusal to believe that people could know their own mind better than some stranger who knows nothing about them except what they see in a post a little condescending. It's a widespread attitude here at CD.com (and elsewhere), and most of the people who display it are nowhere near as decent about it as ReineD.

If you don't know why you find women's clothing nicer than men's, then you don't in fact know your own mind. I have lots of feelings that I can't explain. I don't really know my own mind--although I'd very much like to. To ask "why?" isn't condescending. That's merely your interpretation of the question. To ask "why?" can be an honest attempt to gain knowledge. And it's not in fact a widespread attitude on this forum. People here aren't condescending towards CDers--unless you interpret the question "Why?" as condescending, in which case you're going to find lots of things condescending.


And, since I'm a bit irritated by this, why don't I just play turn-about with this if-I-don't-feel-it-it-must-not-be-real attitude:


Since I cannot for the life of me understand what it means to have a "masculine side" or a "feminine side," there must be some deeper reason why people talk about their "feminine side." It must be a rationalization. My theory is that, since we live in a society in which it is unthinkable for a man to do certain things that society says are for women only, such as wearing pantyhose or skirts, the only way a man who has internalized this attitude can deal with a strong desire to do some "for women only" thing is to imagine that he is two persons: a "male" one that does all the proper male things, and a "female" one that, being female, is allowed to do those "for women only" things. (Saying he has a "male side" and a "female side" is another way of expressing the same process.)

It's a neat theory: it explains what I see here at CD.com, it doesn't require any gender essentialism, and it agrees with my experience of myself, so it must be true. The fact that it may not agree with other people's experience of themselves doesn't matter, because obviously if I don't see it, it must be because they just don't have enough insight, not because my experience isn't universally applicable.

This passage is unfair to Reine. In her post she didn't offer any interpretation of CDers and their motives or reasons. In fact, what she did was ask for them. Again, you're prejudicing the question: you're suggesting that she did something that she didn't do.


A bit snarky, perhaps, but at some point I get tired of people's assumption that their lack of imagination is my problem to solve.

Yes, it is more than a bit "snarky" (to use your word), and I personally am at a loss to explain why CDers should be so irritated by this thread. It's as if asking them to explain their motives is a challenge to their right to CD or a condemnation of them for doing so. Not so. People can ask me why I live the way I do. It doesn't mean they're condemning me for living that way.

And why are you complaining about Reine's lack of imagination? How can she as a cisperson imagine what's going on inside us? Is that what we want cispeople to do anyway? Instead of doing scientific research, instead of them asking us how we feel about things or what we think about things, would it be better for us if they simply sit back and imagine what's going on inside us? That's precisely what trans-haters are doing these days. They imagine what's going on inside us and then proceed to condemn us. Instead of using her imagination, Reine asked us a question. I wish more cispeople would do that. It's the right thing to do.



However, if you the scientist have grown up with the idea that there is something unnatural and pathological about homosexuality, you are going to end up posing the question and interpreting your results from a pathologizing perspective without realizing you are doing it. And since the society you are operating in sees the unnaturalness of homosexuality as being as obvious and unquestionable as 1+1=2, your "results" -- whatever they are -- are going to be interpreted as showing that there's something wrong with homosexuals. I'm not theorizing here: I'm describing most of the scientific research on the subject at least up through the 1970's, and the express belief of a substantial minority of the mental health profession even today.

Again, this whole passage is prejudicing the question. Scientists used to grow up with the idea that homosexuality is unnatural and pathological, and society used to hold those views as well. Things are changing now. Scientists, psychologists and therapists by and large don't see LGBT people as pathological. Homosexuality was declassified as a mental illness long ago, and TGism is more or less there now. And homosexuality is more accepted in society at large these days than it used to be, though there's still a ways to go. You're admitting that the views you're expressing here were valid only up to the 70s. And a "substantial minority" (assuming it is "substantial") is much less than a universal view.


Because of these experiences, a lot of gay people are distrustful of any such research.

Again, prejudicing the question: "such research"--i.e., research whose objective is to pathologize them. That sort of research isn't being done these days. The sort of research that's being done now is a much more honest attempt to understand LGBT people as we truly are. We have nothing to fear from that sort of research.


BTW: how much scientific research is done to figure out why heterosexuals are heterosexual? Fairly little: because being heterosexual isn't seen as needing an explanation.

But in coming to understand homosexuality, we can also come to understand heterosexuality. And just because the majority have never wanted an explanation as to why they are what they are, it doesn't mean there isn't such an explanation. Research is being done into LGBT questions because we're a minority, because we're outside the norm, because we're interesting. And what's wrong with that? What's wrong with people gaining an understanding of us? Would we prefer them to remain ignorant and bigoted?



Why would someone prefer Chopin to LIszt?

Because I find a great deal of depth and substance in Chopin. I've never listened to much of Liszt, but when I heard one of his Piano Concertos, the conclusion of it sounded to me very much like a college football fight song. Not my type of thing.

Why do I find so much more substance in Chopin than in Liszt, or so much more substance in Corelli than in Vivaldi? I don't know, but it is a valid question--the question of what actually constitutes substance in art. Such questions are very difficult, but worthwhile.


Why would someone like blue better than green?

Ask them. Maybe they'll have an answer. My wardrobe is centered around black, brown and blue--colors that go well with my red hair and blue eyes. Why do these colors go well together in my opinion? I don't know. I haven't thought about it much. I do have other things to think about.

There are lots of questions in life. I have lots of questions about my personality, who and what I am and why. By asking questions you can gain some understanding of yourself, which I consider a good and necessary thing. Maybe others think otherwise.

Asche, why do you find women's clothing nicer than men's? Answer that question and you'll have understood something very profound about yourself. And above all, why does someone's asking that question offend you so much?

To ask the question doesn't condemn you. It's an attempt to understand you. Two different things.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[TeresaL]

Thanks for asking the question(s) RenieD. :) I have not been crossdressing lately, and missed seeing this post because I've been doing other things. Somewhere in the archives, you've probably mentioned that you have a research background, an inquisitive nature, and are a stakeholder. Yay or nay? Any of those values are virtues in my opinion. You, like I, seek cause and effects, and apply a bit of scientific reason (to a degree that we are able) which demands a logical answer. :lalala: and :biteme:
Are not logical answers. LOL

Effects don't cause effects. Something ignites the cause to produce the effect. (In MtF dressing, dressing or feeling good is the effect, but it is not the cause). What is the cause? Oversimplified, finding a solution requires at minimal the following principles to provide somewhat of an explanation to "why?, why?, why?...
Cause ->Catalyst -> Effect

Catalyst (maybe testosterone) is the fuel or ignition, and may be a secondary cause, but not the primary cause of our nature, which is natural to us and largely foreign to society in general.

If we work our way back toward trying to discover the cause, we do find testosterone lurking and it indeed provides fuel to ignite and discover MtF dressing. Testosterone though is still not the the root cause, it is one kind of fuel. We are in the minority, less than 10% possibly and the mixture of testosterone and clothes do not produce crossdressers in the larger male population. If it did, then the question is settled and we would have a determining factor for our cross dressing.

While It may be the antagonistic http://avitale.com/TNote15Testosterone.htm


Yet, those of us in the minority may have started with testosterone and women's articles as a fetish of sorts. There must be a reason behind this, which is closer to the root than puberty. Something we don't consciously regard, because it is not a tangible entity without dissecting our brain. Yet we've read about dissected brains of transgenders, and their conclusion is their brain exhibits feminine brain structure and doesn't resemble male structure.

So we turn to the brain, this organ of ours which doles out the commands to our body. For some reason our brain causes us to crossdress or express ourselves in female ways because our brains have a capacity to tie the effects together, and act out on them resulting in the latter effect of "it feels good, hence I do it."

(I can't believe how much I'm writing and on an iPhone yet). LOL

If you've followed this mess of mine, you know that I am inquisitive and looking for answers too. If I pause too long, I can't see in the screen to tell what I had written in order to keep on track. So I'm going to wind this down and conclude that we are different, and our brains either developed in the early fetal stages or rewiring took place afterwords. One of those must be the root cause to our crossdressing, not "I like to wear panties." LOL

[happy2cd]

There are a lot of reasons, but is it really impossible to believe that there is a pwerful pull from the desire to wear the clothes. For those of us who started very young it is hard to interpret that first time as anything other than the desire to put on the soft frilly clothing. As a five year old I don't think that I was caught up in a personal debate about wanting to be feminine (too abstract), or power (ceding or gaining), but the panties felt nice, the dress was great, the slip superb.

As I said at 5 years old there isn't much more than impulse at work. The first time leads to second and third times because it felt good/right when the clothes were on. As a preteen/teen the sexual release is there so there can begin to be other arguments about why, but if you started young it is still the magic of the clothes that leads you be wearing them and discover that they can feed into more gratification.

As an adult more piles as far as it being a release of stress, authority, masculinity, power-whatever else-that result from putting on the clothes, but the initial power of the clothes is the clothes themselves, the other stuff all follows from what you idscover about yourself when you have them on.

So those are my 2 pennies thrown into the continually interesting debate.

[Ambergold43]

An excerpt from an article written by C.V. Prince (aka Virginia Prince) in 1957 offering an explanation on "Transvestite" (the dominant term used in those days) identity. Her opinion on this matter hits on the social reasons for heterosexual male Crossdressing behavior (as distinct from transsexual behavior) which I tend to agree with to some degree.

"Finally, the role of the young male in relation to one or several of the females around him is such as to either devalue the social position of the male (a "dominant mother," for instance) or to place a special emphasis on the woman's role in society, the identification will turn the male into a transvestite in his adult years. As a transvestite his desires are to dress like a woman, act like a woman, go about in public as a woman and be accepted by women as a woman. Such a person is the type which should be designated a "true" transvestite, ... " (Prince, The American Journal of Psychotherapy, vol. 11, 1957, pp. 80-85)


Read the full article here:

http://www.anitw.org/Library/Homosexuality-TV-TS%20Etiology%20and%20Differentiation.PDF

Clothes are important, but they are merely symbols of the meaning behind the clothes - in other words, what social information they convey (Femininity). Which is why, I believe, only women's clothes will suffice and not men's clothing of certain fabrics or colors.

[elizabethamy]

My life has been all about words, in a variety of professions. Still, Reine, the answer from me is that there is something pre-verbal about why we dress. The putting on of women's clothes, regardless of the softness of the fabric, sends some kind of mysterious semi-electric jolt through the body and to the brain. It feels like what I imagine an antidepressant would feel if it worked well and instantaneously.

The cost of crossdressing, as you point out, is absurdly high, so I believe we do it for a reason that transcends reason; talking about it gets us closer to the truth, but it will never take us all the way there.

That's my story; the mileage of others, of course, varies.

elizabethamy

[SarahMarie42]

Clothes are important, but they are merely symbols of the meaning behind the clothes - in other words, what social information they convey (Femininity). Which is why, I believe, only women's clothes will suffice and not men's clothing of certain fabrics or colors.

Exactly, Amber, and this implies a psychological motive which exceeds a preference like, say, that of beer to wine -- a point I think many have missed in their taking offense. That's a great way to summarize and get to the heart of Reine's intent.

[sometimes_miss]

Clothes are important, but they are merely symbols of the meaning behind the clothes - in other words, what social information they convey (Femininity). Which is why, I believe, only women's clothes will suffice and not men's clothing of certain fabrics or colors.
Short and to the point. Well said.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I don't know about others I can only speak to my experience on this. It wasn't until only a few years ago when I finally figured out my answer to the big "why" question. But before that discovery I would've answered with "I just like women's clothes" if asked. I did this because I really had no other answer and the other answers such as to feel feminine didn't sound right to me I didn't really want to feel feminine and the honest I really wasn't feeling feminine at all. I was just a normal heterosexual young male doing male things and being perfectly happy with life except for this strange need to drees in female clothes every one in a while. There didn't seem to be any deeper meaning. How else could I answer that question with anything but "I like the clothes"? Looking back on it, it was a simple answer to hide my ignorance and confusion.When I finally found the answer, it being a fetish, my world started to make more sense. I find that finding the "why" in anything makes the world a better place.

[flatlander_48]

Surely, there must be more to the second set of reasons that explain why a man would risk jeopardizing his marriage and/or a job, and risk subjecting himself to potential ridicule and ostracism from peers … and therefore staying closeted, just because women's clothes "are nicer"?

You can apply the same thought process to gays, lesbians and bisexuals. Many times there is a thought about coming out to someone, but there may be a string of unintended consequences. Excluding people who are transgender (mind/body mismatch), crossdressers fall into the same category. However, we don't ask people "Why do you like being gay?" or "Why are you gay?". We tend to take it at face value. Basically I think you have to take the same approach with crossdressing and crossdressers.

[Taylor186]

However, we don't ask people "Why do you like being gay?" or "Why are you gay?" We tend to take it at face value.

If this were only true. There are many people today who ask "why are you gay?" convinced it is a just lifestyle choice. Many more supposedly credentialed therapists are practicing "conversion therapy" to cure gay behavior, even--as recent news shows--in an "enlightened," liberal leaning state like California.

Unfortunately crossdressing education and understanding and acceptance from the general public is 10-20 years behind that of Ls, Gs and Bs

[CassandraSmith]

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

I want to come back to trying to answer your original question which appears to be "What is the deeper reason?"

Crossdressing is about power. It's identification with feminine power and the desire to have it. It's about loving femininity to the point of wanting wear it. It's because one side of our genes is entirely feminine. We already know what it means to be a woman because we are half female. The female sex is the one without the actual genetic knowledge of what Y is. Yes, they can be like men but there's no stigma because they were never tasked with being in the middle. We are exhausted by having to ride the center. It's also about exploring the edges. The taboo nature of it energizes it and makes it appear as an addiction to some. Mainstream people admire balance in males and think that balance is the key to maleness. We are revolutionaries; we value exploring at extremes. We are the opposite of the competition body builder exuding masculinity. Our bodies are the canvases for our art; we paint with clothes.

How's that for a manifesto?

[Badtranny]

Wow, this thread is a great example of why I love this forum.

This is essentially a one topic forum (transgenderism) but I have never encountered so many people that I would love to meet and share a couple of bottles of wine with. Some of these discussions just amaze and humble me.

I'm not really surprised that so many find offense (it's a sensitive crowd) but I definitely don't understand why the desire to examine ones motives isn't universal. I am constantly questioning why I am the way I am and I love discussing it with people. Crossdressers fascinate me and I don't have any problem asking them why they do it because I just want to understand. I would ask a tightrope walker the exact same question. Why are you compelled to do that?

People ask me why I transitioned all the time. I enjoy having the opportunity to talk about it, I certainly don't feel offended or insulted. What is so bad about an honest discussion?

[AlexisRaeMoon]

Wow, this thread has some legs...ok, I'll keep it simple. Modify the original statement to, "I like wearing women's clothes." Lots of guys like women's clothes, on women. What sets us apart is the almost uncontrollable desire to put them on ourselves. And in my case, it's about looking like a woman too. It's not enough just to have the clothes on, the most rewarding part is looking in the mirror and seeing a reasonable facsimile of a female looking back. Why? I dunno. Why do people like chocolate? How come some people love Pink Floyd, and others can't stand them?

When I was a kid, starting to get into heavy metal (Motley Crue, Iron Maiden, Kiss, etc.) people use to ask me, "Why do you like that stuff? You're so smart." Like being smart has anything to do with it. You really can't apply logic to stuff that floats your boat. You get that feeling when something says to you, "this is me," and to try to be anything else is near impossible. Some things just resonate for different people, and some times at different intensities. The desire to crossdress, for whatever reason, is particularly powerful.

Thanks for all the thoughts. This is wonderful.

[Rhonda Darling]

While I enjoy rading this thread, and considering all the possible reasons why I am like I am, at the end of the day I can't but think that all this is like contemplating your own navel. No matter how much you do it, you end up realizing that its a funnly looking squirrely piece of your anatomy that you don't really understand other than the fact that it's there for a reason, and it pre-dates your consciousness.

Your mileage may differ.

I love you all for your differences and our sameness.

Rhonda

[Sarah Doepner]

While there may be something deeper that had me hooked when I was 5 or 6 years old, I kind of rewarded my crossdressing efforts once I reached puberty. Somehow the original motivation had been subverted by my changing biology. But then what happened many years later? It's not uncommon to fully dress with forms, makeup, wig, jewelry, perfume etc. and it doesn't get a rise out of me. But I do find that it now feels right, comforts some of my demons and gives me a chance to get away from old Mr. Stick-in-the-mud and his problems for an hour or two. What was simple at one time has become very complex with plenty of nuance and variety. It's like so many other things in life that become better with age because we are able to pay attention to the details and appreciate the small differences we bring to each experience. It may not have been the clothing when I was 15, but that is much more difficult to argue against nearly 50 years later. As so many others have stated, it's complicated and different for each of us. This is my story and I'm sticking with it, at least until I change it in another post.

[ReineD]

Can anyone tell me why "I think that women's clothes are nicer" isn't a perfectly reasonable explanation? If someone tells you they like collecting stamps, or skiing, or playing guitar, do you normally demand some explanation in terms of psychological complexes or something? Or do you simply accept that people have different tastes and different interests, and that some people may find certain things deeply fullfilling that you cannot appreciate in the slightest? Why is what people like to wear somehow not subject to the same laws of diversity?

A generation ago, "reasonable" people were asking the same sort of pathologizing questions about gay people. No one (except other gay people) could understand why anyone would be sexually attracted to members of their own sex other than as a consequence of some deep psychological disturbance or miswiring or something. And gay people who grew up in that environment, in which "I like it" was not an acceptable answer, often came up with all kinds of convoluted theories to justify what they liked. Now that being gay is not seen as quite so sick and perverted as it was when I was young, I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

First, I'm not pathologizing anyone.

Second, you compare a preference for crossdressing to a number of other activities: collecting stamps, skiing, playing guitar, painting, cataloging earthworms, and climbing a mountain. I dare say that all genders do these things including transpersons, except the crossdressing. Only crossdressers crossdress. :) None of the other activities are hidden from employers, wives, children, neighbors, friends, and community members.

Third, you mention gay men. I agree, there's nothing wrong with being a gay man. A generation ago and still today, a reasonable answer to "Why do you like men" would be, "Because I'm homosexual. Homosexual men are same-sex attracted. I was born this way and it is part of who I am".

If the crossdressers who explain the CDing with "They don't make men's clothes in the colors and fabrics that I like to wear" were to answer the question, "Why do you like to wear women's clothes" just as honestly, then they might see what I'm trying to get at.

Maybe you, Asche, do fall between the genders and since you've never lived inside anyone else's skin, I'm sure that wearing women's clothes is a natural thing to do. This is understandable. Maybe you think that a man who prefers to cross the gender barriers by wearing the feminine clothing that he was socialized to believe is taboo (I bet you didn't wear girl's clothes in high school), that in many marriages causes it's downfall, that causes people to lose jobs (would you ever go to a job interview dressed?), that many members in this community keep either deeply closeted or hidden from a select group of people such as their bosses, kids, friends, extended family members, if not their wives, is no more indicative of his inner gender identity than preferring all of the other activities that you mention in your post. But I honestly think there is something deeper than just a preference for fabrics and colors.



Since I cannot for the life of me understand what it means to have a "masculine side" or a "feminine side," there must be some deeper reason why people talk about their "feminine side." It must be a rationalization. My theory is that, since we live in a society in which it is unthinkable for a man to do certain things that society says are for women only, such as wearing pantyhose or skirts, the only way a man who has internalized this attitude can deal with a strong desire to do some "for women only" thing is to imagine that he is two persons: a "male" one that does all the proper male things, and a "female" one that, being female, is allowed to do those "for women only" things. (Saying he has a "male side" and a "female side" is another way of expressing the same process.)

I can speak with reasonable authority of my SO's crossdressing. He did start out many years ago constructing a separate female identity. I'm guessing it was the only way that he could reasonably give himself permission, as a man, to do what she wanted to do. But over time and with lots of self-examination, my SO integrated him/herself and how s/he is always the same person internally no matter how he's dressed. It's just a question of feeling more feminine sometimes, and more masculine at other times. This is why my SO identifies as dualgender, and not a male who dresses because he can't find his favorite colors and fabrics among male clothing.

I support my SO 110%. But, s/he doesn't tell me that she has a closet full of women's clothes because she prefers the colors and the fabrics they come in. Dressing makes her feel good. She likes to present as a woman, she likes to feel feminine, dressing allows her to express a part of herself that she didn't feel she was allowed to express while she was growing up, and she is well aware that she does NOT have the same gender identity as the men that he works with, his male friends, or the 97%-99% of the male population that have absolutely no interest, and who in fact have an aversion to wearing feminine clothing. The need to dress is part of my SO, just as much as same-sex attraction is part of a homosexual man's identity. And further, my SO is not transsexual and she does not identify as a woman.

That said, there are a significant number of crossdressers who dress for fetish reasons rather than identity reasons. So if it's fetish for you and others, that's OK too! But if it is, then saying "I do it because I like the colors and the fabrics" is misleading,

Another good topic some day, but not for this thread, would be to examine what exactly is at the root of fetish crossdressing. What, exactly, causes a man to become sexually aroused at the thought of being a woman. Many fetish crosdressers will say that their male identity is intact, but sometimes I wonder. :p



I see more gay people simply saying, "this is what I like, this is how I am." Which I think is a lot healthier.

No. They say, "This is WHO I am". Why can't the crossdressers who say they dress because men's clothes don't come in the colors and fabrics they like, say the same? There's nothing pathological about saying "This is who I am". It's just being honest. In fact, let's reverse this with a question. If you don't like to say that it is a part of you, then maybe you are ashamed of being cross-gender, and maybe deep down you feel that it is somehow wrong to identify this way?

Please don't get irritated with me for asking this. Please remember that we are having a discussion, it doesn't change who you are, and I am merely discussing and asking questions. :hugs:

[sometimes_miss]

Crossdressing is about power. It's identification with feminine power and the desire to have it.
Well, there's another person with another reason for his crossdressing (supporting the concept that there are as many reasons as there are crossdressers). But it doesn't apply to all of us. At least, it doesn't seem to fit me, for example.

[Sonya]

I think nearly all member here agree with the "I like women's clothes" statement, the real question is the WHY. If it is only about the clothes then WHY fake boobs, make up, wigs, tucking and everything else. For most of us clothes are not enough we really want to act and look like women, some want to do this occasionally and some want to do it all the time, we are all different and we all have different motives.

[NicoleScott]

We don't really know WHY we dress, but we can recognize the side effects or cross benefits of dressing. So it's easy enough to substitute effects for cause.
I like how the clothes feel, too. But that's not why I dress. I've never bought the idea that "I dress just because I like the clothes".

[withasmile]

I think it's perfectly acceptable to have one person have a different set of reasons than another. It's taboo, it's sexual, women's clothes are nicer, it has to do with power... Take 10 people who call themselves Christians and ask about their beliefs - even if they go to the same church they are likely to disagree on something. Live and let live people. Accept who you are and treat others with kindness. Regardless of the whys - you still have to deal with how it impacts your world. And this GG hates panty hose, wear frilly underthings only for the pleasure of my guy, takes off the bra ASAP, shovels snow, takes out the garbage, will defrost pipes and can tolerate limited conversations about hair and nails before I'm bored to death, btw.

[CassandraSmith]

Well, there's another person with another reason for his crossdressing (supporting the concept that there are as many reasons as there are crossdressers). But it doesn't apply to all of us. At least, it doesn't seem to fit me, for example.

I was sort of brainstorming here so I'm not sure if that's really the total reason for me but it seemed like fun to explore so down the rabbit hole I went ;-)

I would have an equally difficult time explaining how I know that I'm a musician or how I can make things sound like songs when I play. Lots of other people can't do that. They don't have musicality. Many can move their fingers. Some can fake it really good but I could always see through that. CDing is the same. It's not just all the reasons mentioned but there's also this mystery about it too.

[NicoleScott]

And this GG hates panty hose, wear frilly underthings only for the pleasure of my guy, takes off the bra ASAP, shovels snow, takes out the garbage, will defrost pipes and can tolerate limited conversations about hair and nails before I'm bored to death, btw.

We live in a world in which it's Ok for a woman to eschew girly things but not OK for a man to embrace them.

[melissakozak]

Wow what a thread. I don't dress as a means to an end, not an end in itself. I have at least partially, mainly a feminine identity, so crossdressing allows me to be 'me.' I don't care how the clothes feel, and when I dress, I dress fully and have to go out and be a woman to the world. I am truly transgendered, and bisexual in both gender presentations, so I am fluid in both modes. I am borderline TS, but at this point in life, transition is off the table. If I was younger and had not built such a successful masculine life (parts of which I enjoy), then I would transition. But in 1990, when I came out to family and friends, gender clinics were still the rage....so, I compromise and live a part-time, fully female existence.

I have a separate apartment, separate social group, and I go out a lot. It satisfies me thus far. I realize this could change, but it likely won't....

[Asche]

First, I'm not pathologizing anyone.
I'm sure you don't see yourself as pathologizing anyone.

But when you characterize certain explanations as "bunk," and then, when people offer attempts to clarify what they mean, you then try to "prove" those clarifications wrong; when you take our attempts to describe our experience and rewrite them in terms that don't make sense to us and insist that they must be the real reasons -- if it's not pathologizing, it's something awfully close to it.

A single "why?" might pass for curiosity or an honest attempt to understand, depending on the context. But repeated "why?"s, and a refusal to accept any of the answers, is going to come across to anyone as saying that there's something wrong with what they're doing, regardless of what activity the "why" is about.

I also can't help noticing that gender-essentialist explanations -- like "expressing my female side" -- don't get this treatment from you. Evidently, explanations that reinforce the socially-approved paradigm that wearing dresses/skirts/pantyhose/etc. is in essence female are acceptable, but ones that don't fit into it or even challenge it are not.

I don't think you are ever going to really understand this. There are lots of things about other people that don't make sense to me (but seem to make sense to them) and never will. At some point, I have to just accept that my not understanding those things doesn't make them any less real or true -- to do otherwise is an act of essential disrespect.

I don't find your not understanding oppressive. I do find your attitude that you are entitled to an explanation that makes sense to you in your terms (and that ones that don't are "bunk") oppressive. Especially since you have the weight of "normal" society on your side.


Please don't get irritated with me for asking this. Please remember that we are having a discussion, it doesn't change who you are, and I am merely discussing and asking questions.
Try Googling "JAQing off" for some background on why "merely asking questions" isn't necessarily an innocent activity.

[k lynn]

Wow, this thread is a great example of why I love this forum.

This is essentially a one topic forum (transgenderism) but I have never encountered so many people that I would love to meet and share a couple of bottles of wine with. Some of these discussions just amaze and humble me.

I'm not really surprised that so many find offense (it's a sensitive crowd) but I definitely don't understand why the desire to examine ones motives isn't universal. I am constantly questioning why I am the way I am and I love discussing it with people. Crossdressers fascinate me and I don't have any problem asking them why they do it because I just want to understand. I would ask a tightrope walker the exact same question. Why are you compelled to do that?

People ask me why I transitioned all the time. I enjoy having the opportunity to talk about it, I certainly don't feel offended or insulted. What is so bad about an honest discussion?
Reine your post always make me do alot of soul searching and thinking which is something I need to do more often as for an answer I have more femaine atturbutes about me than male my whole life I would rather cook clean and take care of people than play sports or watch them Also though my life people have said I act more like a girl just the other night at work a 23 lady said you act like a girl and I am now 48

[Josie M]

Timely question for me....

A lot of the "classic" reasons certainly apply to me. In recent years, however, I've made some significant progress in being more, "authentically myself". One postive result is that it's made me much less introverted than I used to be. Thing is, being "authentic" for me does not quite fit into societal definintions of "male" and "female". So, I suppose the reason I find expressing myself as Josie so calming is that it "gives me permission" to express aspects of my personality that society pressures me to suppress.

The ironic thing is, behavior is largely cause and effect and the real difference between male and female expression is not nearly as great as our culture makes it out to be. Differences to be sure but minor details at best. Although, sufficient to have made me the target of gay bashing as a teenager - before I realized that I was "giving off a vibe".

In the past I built a male "persona" that would enable me to interact with my peer group without harassment. In some cases, I took on sterotypically male hobbies or pursuits to flesh this persona out. Today, I've dropped many of those things but there also many that I wound up liking....things that genuinely were me. Again, ironically, very few of these hobbies, pursuits, whatever were exclusively the purvue of males; more just things that tended to be more associated with males.

The harder part are those "minor details" that this society deems female. As I said, it "gives off a vibe" that not everyone responds positively to. Fortuneately, the social circles I run in these days are more easy going. Regardless, I am committed to be myself regardless of what gender I'm expressing at the time.

So, what happens if I'm successful? What happens when who I am is no longer tied to the gender I express?

I've actually thought about this and, if you take away the need to express as female in order to fully express myself; there is still the creative process of creating a female expression which I kinda enjoy.


So, I imagine I will still express as female just for the enjoyment I get from the creative process even if the day comes when there isn't really a need to do so.

[Vinyl Girl]

I like the way women’s clothing feels on me and I like the way I look in women’s clothing. Is it a turn-on? Absolutely, but it’s also a peaceful and contented feeling that I have when I’m wearing women’s clothing. No matter how many hours of the day or how many days in a row I dress in women’s clothing I never seem to lose these feelings about how I look or feel. Some of you are very lucky, you’ve found a woman that is very accepting of your cross-dressing, I’ve never been lucky enough to meet a women (at least one that was willing to admit) that she didn’t see anything wrong with men wearing women’s clothes.

[genevie]

I used to say it was the clothes. But then I realized that happiness comes from two simple acts. Tucking the penis away and putting on the breasts. No other alterations are needed and no clothing need be added. So what does that mean? Passing, however, would be awesome. Looking in the mirror and seeing female would be the ultimate. Probably never happen. Still don't know what it all means.

[Wildaboutheels]

The simple TRUTH of the matter is that "I like women's clothes" is a pretty silly statement. I'll bet a years pay that there is not a CD on the planet or a GG for that matter that lkes ALL women's clothing - thong as well as granny panties. Or miniskirts or short shorts or jeans or granny dresses. Or that likes /much less ever wears pantyhose.

"I like SOME women's clothes" is much easier to try to dissect. Some will use all of the "trappings" that "many" GGs use - makeup, nail polish, shaving etc. and others might CHOOSE to use some or none - just like GGs. Some guys might choose to use shapewear, bras etc in an effort to look or PRESENT as close to a female as possible [especially when in public] Others could care less. As with all CDers OR GGs, no right or wrong answers or reasons.

I don't believe any sane person could deny that EVERY Human on the planet is some combination of Nature/nurture? Certainly it stands to reason that a man raised solely by his mother and having 5 sisters is going to have a different "outlook" on presentation as opposed to a man raised solely by his father and having 5 brothers?

How many people at this Forum, regrdless of gender would want to take a stab at explaining IN WORDS, how to stick one's tongue out? Or cough? Or sneeze? or roll your eyes....

Certainly there are plenty of people here unwilling to pull their heads out of the sand...

But it seems just as obvious to me that some really do not know. And are clearly frustrated by it in that many claim in various threads that they consider it a curse and would pay to be "cured".

I think if more people were willing to actually READ the other responders in threads, they perhaps would have a better grasp of themselves.

[Sharon B.]

I am one of those people that would say I enjoy wearing woman's clothes. To get to you question as to why I enjoy, as dressing as a woman I can remove all of my body hair (yes I know I could lie and say I am a bike cycle rider or swimmer), I can wear nail polish on my toenails. I am one of the few that enjoy wearing pantyhose when dressed as a woman; I also enjoy wearing makeup and perfume. When I get right down to it I can honestly say it is a fetish as much as I hate to say it. Because once I am dressed as a woman it won’t be long before I am masturbating to the image I see in the mirror, then the shame comes around that has been instructed into us. After three or four hours I am ready to do it all over again.

[VickiTheGamer]

I like women's clothes. Hmmm... for me it's not so much about the clothing as what the clothes do for me. It's like going out to play when a kid. I find my energy goes way up. That energy is more of a, "omg" and the ol' nervousness that comes with doing something I was brought up to be wrong. It is quite exciting. Yes, there is sexual excitement as well but not nearly as much now that I am older. When I was younger though, it was quite a sexual thing. Now, I really find putting on the clothing, make-up, nail polish, high heals, etc. give me a new perspective for the day. I am not the Male me, I am Vicki instead. I don't even prance like I used to. Instead I just do what ever I planned to do as if I had not put it all on. Watch tv, cook, clean, work on the computer, etc. I just don't go out. It's all an "At home only" thing. Then, at the end of the day, a shower and bed.

[ReineD]

I don't think you are ever going to really understand this. There are lots of things about other people that don't make sense to me (but seem to make sense to them) and never will. At some point, I have to just accept that my not understanding those things doesn't make them any less real or true -- to do otherwise is an act of essential disrespect.

I don't find your not understanding oppressive. I do find your attitude that you are entitled to an explanation that makes sense to you in your terms (and that ones that don't are "bunk") oppressive. Especially since you have the weight of "normal" society on your side.


Try Googling "JAQing off" for some background on why "merely asking questions" isn't necessarily an innocent activity.

My post touched a raw nerve and I apologize. I'm not emotionally vested in any outcome of the discussion, I honestly don't feel as if I am "entitled" to anything, and it truly was a point of discussion for me and for most of the people who responded. Maybe the next time, Asche, you can just ignore these threads if you are taking them personally.

FYI, I do support my SO unconditionally, we go out dressed in public together frequently and we have a good time, and I do not consider the CDing abnormal in terms of mental health issues, nor do I consider it pathological, deviant, or any other pejorative term, no matter the motives for dressing. At the same time I do recognize that a small percentage of men crossdress compared to the whole so in terms of strictly numbers, it is not widespread and therefore not a behavior that is average on the numbers scale. But, neither is genius. Only a very small percentage of the population have an IQ above 130. :)

[CassandraSmith]

OK, the title of my post is sort of silly but really, I could draw a parallel to my music life. To say I play guitar because I like how notes sound would be equally over-simplified. Lots of people like music. I meet tons of people who say "I love music" or "I'd love to play the guitar." Bullsh**. They don't love it because they won't marry it. When you practice up to 6-7 hours a day (in my youth) and you have to purchase certain instruments because they just have something that no other has and you spend thousands of hours on it in lessons, money, time, commitments, pain, massage therapy, acupuncture, your love is manifested with something else: commitment.

Or maybe obsession? I don't know. All I know is that I must do it and do it well. Ultimately, the way it sounds is everything.

CDing is the same. The motive is primal and really, is there anyone here who really doesn't acknowledge that we are profoundly different from mainstream folks?


[...]None of the other activities are hidden from employers, wives, children, neighbors, friends, and community members.[...]

Actually, if you've hung with other musicians, we hide our activities from employers and especially when dating at times because musicians carry a stigma now. I've met a lot of women who will shut it down immediately if they learn you are one. It can be wise to keep this from employers also as many have had bad experiences with musicians in the past. It usually takes a lot of explaining of what I am too as I do basically a type of orchestra pit work primarily at church but also plays and even funerals. In other words, I'm not an entertainer. I'm in the back making it happen behind the scenes.

I also hide how I make a living. Not because it's bad or illegal. But when I tell people how I actually do it, they can't get their heads around it and it can freak some people out. It's the same with royalties. Most people can't separate their income from a clock. When you try to explain how it works to collect money for stuff you've done in the past, some people get really weird about it like it's wrong or something. I know it sounds strange but it's happened to me. It's that same thing where people resent sports stars because they make a lot of money. Once you understand how an artistic or athletic career works, you get that they have to because their career lifespan is very very limited.

[Dena]

I think the pay-off is feeling feminine.

Many of us have spent a significant amount of time denying and suppressing feeling feminine. I remember being @5 (and alone at the time), sitting down and thinking "I'm sitting like a girl, I can't do that, I have to sit like a boy! etc... Then discovering some girl's clothes and trying them on, and loving how they feel (I'm quite fond of nylon and silk). Catching yourself in the mirror and loving how you look, feeling euphoric. Then undressing, vowing to never do it again. Then not being able to stop thinking and fantasizing about doing it again!

[NathalieX66]

Page seven.

Reine......what do you like about being a female? ....you know, being a girl?

[ReineD]

Page seven.

Reine......what do you like about being a female? ....you know, being a girl?

Having lots of patience. :D

I enjoy being in touch with my emotions, having a tender heart sometimes yet being super aggressive, stubborn, and competitive at other times, being a mom, having men admire me (when I was younger), feeding the people I love, being a mom to people who are not my kids, making love to my SO, talking with my girlfriends, approaching life with a "let's find solutions for the greater good" attitude, leaning on someone sometimes, being leaned on for my strength at other times, and so much more that I can't think of at the moment. I don't think I'm describing being a woman so much as being a human being?

[Foxglove]

I don't think I'm describing being a woman so much as being a human being?

I was going to say, Reine . . .

[Kelley]

Yes Reine you are describing a human being. Sadly some of the things you describe are thought to be less than manly. I always feared being thought of as less Than manly. Even though I am emotional, tender hearted and fell the need to be nurturing to my family and others, I felt I must repress those feeling to be accepted as a manly man. As I have said before I believe men must live in a very narrow part of the gender spectrum. Such emotion as describe above put one outside the given boundaries.

Yesterday I had my toes done. The color I selected is a beautiful shade of pink,maybe a little towards the red side. I chose it not because it looked or made me feel "girlie" (I hate that word) but because it truly touched me in a way I cannot describe. Two weeks ago I was in Charming Charlie's and saw an owl necklace that touched me once again in a way I cannot explain. I love to wear it, my wife thinks it's silly but for some reason it feels good. As a man I would never looked twice or even allow myself to consider these things. I would run the other way as fast as I could for fear I would be considered less than a man.

Now back to the clothes. There are items of women's clothes that affect me in the same way as the thing above. I like them, they are pretty. I love the way women look and the way their clothes accentuate their body. I like to think that perhaps I can emulate that (in my own mind). Lastly when I am dressed it's OK to be emotional, tender hearted and nurturing. It brings about a feeling of contentment and I feel it's OK to like things that I shouldn't and express myself in ways I shouldn't. The clothes are kind of a crutch to help me break free of the social standards that don't fit me. They also allow me to fulfill my fantasy of being pretty.

I have lived most of my life trying to fit the social mold that Defines a man. I now want to finish my life being who I really am. So why women's clothes, their pretty and I just like them.

Social Damaged (lol)
Kelley

[NicoleScott]

After catching up reading the most recent posts, I had to go back to see what the original question was, as topics can get sidetracked.


Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

There is a TV ad in which a woman states "I honestly loved smoking". Horse manure, I thought to myself. As a former smoker (smoke free 20+ years) I remember that the "enjoyment" of smoking was really getting my nicotine fix that my body demanded, especially at times like sitting through a meeting that lasted longer than the fix I got from my last smoke. Attention to the meeting was distracted by thoughts of when I might get to smoke again. The TV ad I mentioned was for a product to help break the smoking addition. With some authority, I'll never believe that smokers just love to smoke. There's a deeper reason.
It's not my intention to equate a smoking addiction to a crossdressing compulsion, but rather to agree that there is a deeper reason than "I just like the clothes".
The "why" is denial.

[willnotwill]

I think many here are impressing their own feelings on the entire spectrum of crossdressing. I have ZERO interest in being female, don't own a wig, never wear makeup. I am 100% in it for the clothes. I get ostracised from both communities for being outside their norm. The variety, the textures, the fabrics, etc.. are all interesting to me. I spend more time looking at the fashions than who they are on. Part of it is that it is officially denied to me.

[CassandraSmith]

I think many here are impressing their own feelings on the entire spectrum of crossdressing. I have ZERO interest in being female, don't own a wig, never wear makeup. I am 100% in it for the clothes. I get ostracized from both communities for being outside their norm. The variety, the textures, the fabrics, etc.. are all interesting to me. I spend more time looking at the fashions than who they are on. Part of it is that it is officially denied to me.

I think my motive is not to pigeon hole anyone but try to reach a deeper understanding of it for myself with the assumption that if I'm lucky, it might even resonate for some others. There are many different approaches here and I'm OK with all of them. For me, it's about 50% clothes and 50% feeling feminine. I love that for some it's one or the other. I love that I wonder where I'll be with it in a year from reading all the different approaches. I'm for diversity. I'm for training myself to accept diversity. I celebrate authenticity.

[happy2cd]

Why must we have to be seeking a "feminine identity" when we crossdress, or else it must be a fetish and it is done soley to arouse. For me it started with the clothes. One day when I was in nursery school I wore my sister's underwear to school one day and it felt great (and not in a sexual way, more of the it felt right). Another time, around the same age I had to try on the wedding dress in my sisters' dress up chest to see how it felt to have it "on," and again it felt good. Next was a slip...

There was no tucking, no thinking I want to pretend to be a girl, no sense of I want to relinquish male power/gain female power, merely exploring the clothes. Today I have forms and have to say that they make the clothes fit better. I have a wig because I like to wear my clothes outside of my house at night away from people so that a form with long hair in a dress does not call too muuch attention to itself.

I do not have a female persona that I am trying to embody. I am not trying to hide my masculinity. I am still drawn to the clothes and as Dr. Seuss might say I like to wear them in the house, with a mouse, at the park, in the dark... Would that make me a fetish dresser if I am not seeking to climax or have any other experience than walking around dressed? I don't think so. I would argue that I am somewhere on the crossdressing continuum and resent the idea that it cannot be about the clothes for some us, but that there must be a deeper more transexual reason for dressing.

Personally I liked the person who mentioned the possibility that they had been a woman in a past life to descibe their desire to dress, because I could relate to that, because I have always wondered why the idea of me wearing the clothes of a woman felt "right" to me from such an early age. I also could imagine how clothes would feel on me from that early age. So the attraction of the clothes for me is real and I do not think that there is a great deeper meaning that I am failing to grasp, but I am sure others here will be more than happy to debunk my beliefs.

[ReineD]

Why must we have to be seeking a "feminine identity" when we crossdress, or else it must be a fetish and it is done soley to arouse. For me it started with the clothes. One day when I was in nursery school I wore my sister's underwear to school one day and it felt great (and not in a sexual way, more of the it felt right). Another time, around the same age I had to try on the wedding dress in my sisters' dress up chest to see how it felt to have it "on," and again it felt good. Next was a slip...

This is not an attempt to define you, but to generally point out that fetishes do begin in childhood. They just don't start at puberty. And not all fetishes are sexual.

[vivianann]

Great question ReinD, even though I do not want SRS I identify more as a female than male, if I could live full time as a woman I would, at this time I cannot. for me it is more than just the clothes, they are a part of the equation. When I am dressed enfemme, I am very outgoing and self confident, when I am dressed as a male I am more unsure and shy. when I am unable to dress enfemme for long periods of time, I become very depressed, it can become paralyzing at times. When I am finally able to dress it is like a whole new world for me, I feel free to be me. My friends and family who have known me all my life tell me that when I am dressed enfemme, my personality blossems and that I have alot of self confidence. it is hard to explain why we dress, it is like describing the flavor of salt. When I dress enfemme it is more than just the clothes, it is the feminine image, (dress, makeup, hair, etc etc.). Dressing enfemme makes me feel better about myself, it is like going to paradise for me. It does NOT arrouse me at all. I hope that explains it better, as I am speaking for myself, for I cannot speak for the others here on this forum.

[sometimes_miss]

I think the pay-off is feeling feminine. Many of us have spent a significant amount of time denying and suppressing feeling feminine. I remember being @5 (and alone at the time), sitting down and thinking "I'm sitting like a girl, I can't do that, I have to sit like a boy! etc... Then discovering some girl's clothes and trying them on, and loving how they feel (I'm quite fond of nylon and silk). Catching yourself in the mirror and loving how you look, feeling euphoric. Then undressing, vowing to never do it again. Then not being able to stop thinking and fantasizing about doing it again!
There it is. And I think for most, that's what they are targeting, to feel something 'different', whether as a sexual turn on, or an escape from physical sensations that men feel. Because no men really know what it is like to 'feel feminine', they substitute the tactile sensations of the clothes, and then try to emulate the behavior of women as they think women behave and feel, based solely on observation (and sadly, most men's powers of observation are severly limited by misinterpretation of what they see).

[Foxglove]

Why must we have to be seeking a "feminine identity" when we crossdress, or else it must be a fetish and it is done soley to arouse. . .

I would argue that I am somewhere on the crossdressing continuum and resent the idea that it cannot be about the clothes for some us, but that there must be a deeper more transexual reason for dressing.


I think this is the source of the misunderstanding and antagonism that this thread has aroused. Reine can speak for herself, of course (if she's not heartily sick of this thread at this point), but in her OP I myself didn't find any suggestion that a CDer must be seeking a "feminine identity" or has "transexual" or fetish reasons for dressing. I took it that she was asking for reasons, not suggesting them.

One thing I've got from this forum is that many, many (if not all) CDers state that they identify as male and have no wish to be female. In fact, this is stated so often that I've come to take it as the definition of a CDer (in contrast to someone like me): a man who enjoys wearing women's clothing but has no desire to be a woman.

Now this has always raised questions in my mind. "OK, I accept you have no desire to be a woman. No problem. But what ultimately motivates you to dress in women's clothing?"

Why this question should offend a CDer is something I don't understand. If someone asks me about my motives, I don't take offence. I'm living full-time as a transperson these days. If someone asked me, "Why do you want to live as a 'woman'?", my reply would be, "Good question. I don't really understand it myself. I wish I did." And then I'd give them a summary of what I've learned about the results of current research. But I wouldn't get offended. In fact, a few people have asked me questions, and I answered them as best I could.

Simply asking a CDer what his ultimate motives are (a question which, in my view, can't really be answered these days) doesn't imply that he must be "seeking a feminine identity". If there are CDers who've made that or a similar assumption on this thread, my opinion is that they've misconstrued the question.


There it is. And I think for most, that's what they are targeting, to feel something 'different', whether as a sexual turn on, or an escape from physical sensations that men feel. Because no men really know what it is like to 'feel feminine', they substitute the tactile sensations of the clothes, and then try to emulate the behavior of women as they think women behave and feel, based solely on observation (and sadly, most men's powers of observation are severly limited by misinterpretation of what they see).

Hi, Lexi! It depends on what you mean by "no men". Are you talking about CDers here, or anyone whose birth-sex is male? Because if you're talking about the latter, I'd disagree with your statement. I know very well what it's like to feel feminine. It's something I've felt constantly over these last three months ever since I decided to come out of hiding and start living as myself.

These feelings don't spring from any observations I've made of GG's or any attempt to imitate them. They come from within me. I'm not trying to feel or behave as I think a GG would. I'm feeling and behaving as myself, feeling and doing things that were always latent in me but which I always repressed.

I think anyone who wants to assert that I'm kidding myself, that I'm not truly feeling feminine, is going to have a hard time proving his case. He's going to have to find some way of pinning down and describing what a GG feels and then show that that's not what I feel. How do you get inside a GG's heart and discern exactly what her feelings are, and how do you get inside my heart and discern exactly what my feelings are?

But a GG has a totally different experience in life than I do, so it stands to reason that her feelings must be different from mine. Therefore, my feelings can't possibly be feminine, right? But every GG has a different experience from every other GG in the world, so they all must have somewhat different feminine feelings. Which one do we use as our benchmark?

And this also ignores the nature of TGism. Are we going to deny that a transexual has feminine feelings? Then I think we're denying the reality of transexualism as a phenomenon.

I know what I feel these days--things very different from what I felt when living in the drab old male world. I call these feelings "feminine". If GG's or anybody else want to say that my feminine feelings can't possibly be like theirs, I wouldn't argue the case. How would I know what their feelings are? But how would they know what my feelings are? And in any case, what GG's feel is simply irrelevant to me. I'm not trying to pattern myself on them anyway. I'm going my own way, being feminine on my own terms. I don't see the need to measure myself against anybody else. My femininity is personal. Whether it matches anybody else's idea of the term means nothing to me.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Kerstin]

Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?

Because, for those people, there aren't any.

I think sometimes it's possible to overthink on the subject of wearing women's clothes.

[Maria S]

I think it is hard to work out the deeper reasons behind cross dressing. Why do women like wearing mens clothes? It's because they can and so it should be the same for men wanting to wearing womens clothes.

Maria

[LeaP]

That's because those of us who dress more modestly don't post photos.

Or perhaps aren't crossdressers, to your earlier point. At 56 and having started to wear female clothing pre-school, I took my first picture last year, using it as my avatar for a while.

I not only wear flats, I LIKE flats. I don't own a single pair of heels and am not especially interested in acquiring any.

[Debra Russell]

Well after reading and thinking a lot -- really at the root of it for me is I would really like to expierence being a woman, but the reality of it is ...it ain't gonna happen so wearing the clothes and accepting who you are is the reality of why I dress .............................Debra

[ReineD]

Because, for those people, there aren't any.

I think sometimes it's possible to overthink on the subject of wearing women's clothes.

Kerstin, have you read the other parts of my post and my subsequent posts?

To recap since this thread is rather long, there is an awful lot of risk involved for most CDers who are fully or partially closeted: marriages, other relationships, and jobs should people find out, not to speak of the discomfort experienced when plans go awry and a planned dressing session is cancelled, plus the sheer stress involved in keeping such a secret for so long. CDers purge, they have close calls, they wonder where to hide their stuff, buying it is a hassle, they lie by default (if they are closeted), they insulate themselves so as to not have others know, they have to constantly work around other people's schedules, or if they are single and closeted, many choose to stay single and some even become socially isolated. Or, the CDing becomes a white elephant in their lives with a DADT policy, which is far from being comfortable as well.

... all that just because someone cannot find the fabrics and the colors they like in men's clothes? Men's clothes which, I might add, also come in silk, angora, fine wool and other soft fabrics, and in colors other than blue, gray, and brown.

[Wildaboutheels]

Just for grins, I hope it's okay if I throw in a FACT? Women have indoor plumbing ... and men have outdoor plumbing.

No one ever seems to mention that... or bring it up?

How about another FACT? Women's "underwear" comes in at least double [if not 3 or 4 or 5 times] as many vaireties of fabrics, cuts/styles, colors etc. as men's? At least in every store I have ever been in. I admit I have not been in every store on the planet...

Certainly MEN, with our "outdoor plumbing" would have a greater understanding of "comfort" in underwear than any GG ever could? I mean men do all have different sized "packages" just as all women DO have different sizes and shapes of breasts. Clearly GGs would be experts on bras but IMO are in no position to judge comfort of underwear like any man could. Yes, I am only talking about underwear but every shut door is cracked open temporarily before it can be opened fully... and most threads DO say that most all the CDers started with women's undies do they not?

I think any "sharp" person, male or female would wear whatever "undergarments" [that they have tried] they find the most comfortable? Regardless of the label or which department it came from?

I know where I work, we are not required to give anyone full disclosure on our underwear choice. Seems like wearing what we find comfortable is a no brainer? Or should be.

[Foxglove]

I know where I work, we are not required to give anyone full disclosure on our underwear choice. Seems like wearing what we find comfortable is a no brainer? Or should be.

Yes, except that there's nothing a cisguy would find more humiliating to wear than panties, with the possible exception of a bra. Comfort wouldn't be the only criterion. And anyway, depending on the cut of the panties and how much lebensraum they provide, they might not be terribly comfortable.

Annabelle

[CassandraSmith]

[...] all that just because someone cannot find the fabrics and the colors they like in men's clothes? Men's clothes which, I might add, also come in silk, angora, fine wool and other soft fabrics, and in colors other than blue, gray, and brown.

Your point isn't lost on me. Your title is correct also. I like a nice shiny car too but I haven't waxed mine in 5 years or so (it needs a wash right now too)! The little societal/legal changes involving drinking (DUI checkpoints, advertising, legal risks of drinking and driving, social risks of being seen as irresponsible, or just getting into situations due to poor judgement, health risks) have seriously cut into my alcohol consumption and I actually don't really care. The consequences for being outed as a CDer are way heavier for me and that hasn't deterred me at all. You are correct, there's more going on here than a simple preference for soft silky fabrics.

[Taylor186]

How about another FACT? Women's "underwear" comes in at least double [if not 3 or 4 or 5 times] as many vaireties of fabrics, cuts/styles, colors etc. as men's? At least in every store I have ever been in. I admit I have not been in every store on the planet...

Maybe you need to look a little harder.

Yes, Walmart might have more choices for women than men, maybe, but it's not hard to find plenty of men's options at other stores, and on the internet men's choices are also plentiful. I buy many items from Prevail Sports and I know more men's internet stores have been mentioned in other forum posts.

And FACT: they are designed for "male plumbing" so they fit much better than women's underwear. GGs understand this, why can't you.

Wearing women's underwear, if you are a man, is not about fit or fabric or cut as those options are all readily available on the men's side of the aisle.

[amy96]

I don't know.
But I do know that when I dress, I feel an incredible sexual urge...somewhat of a woman and her first time having sex. I want to sometimes be dominated, and feel attractive to a guy. But then I feel the power a woman has in choosing whom she gives her attention to, and who she returns the flirtatious gesture to.
I haven't culminated these desires in sex yet, but I am thinking strongly about it. Any advice? Great post by the way.

[missmars]

l dont know root of cding urgy

[Kerstin]

Kerstin, have you read the other parts of my post and my subsequent posts?

To recap since this thread is rather long, there is an awful lot of risk involved for most CDers who are fully or partially closeted: marriages, other relationships, and jobs should people find out, not to speak of the discomfort experienced when plans go awry and a planned dressing session is cancelled, plus the sheer stress involved in keeping such a secret for so long. CDers purge, they have close calls, they wonder where to hide their stuff, buying it is a hassle, they lie by default (if they are closeted), they insulate themselves so as to not have others know, they have to constantly work around other people's schedules, or if they are single and closeted, many choose to stay single and some even become socially isolated. Or, the CDing becomes a white elephant in their lives with a DADT policy, which is far from being comfortable as well.

... all that just because someone cannot find the fabrics and the colors they like in men's clothes? Men's clothes which, I might add, also come in silk, angora, fine wool and other soft fabrics, and in colors other than blue, gray, and brown.

Yes, I've read everything.

The list of motives for crossdressing is as long as a piece of string. Somewhere amongst all the more familiar stories will be people who really do just love the clothes and have no other motive. Probably a small number, but still. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume those people exist.

Like I said before, I think sometimes it's possible overthink this. Yes, for many CDers and others in the transgender community there will be a lot of introspection, a lot of peeling away at the layers of their inner selves to work out what the hell it's all about. But for some, it'll be no deeper than a simple love of the clothes and the way it makes them feel. Not everyone needs a psychoanalysis.

[Georgina]

I have never subscribed to the notion that women should have nicer clothes than men. I think everyone should have the same choices. I would use the terms skirts and dresses rather than women's clothes. I like wearing them and I don't really care why.

[LeaP]

I have never subscribed to the notion that women should have nicer clothes than men. I think everyone should have the same choices. I would use the terms skirts and dresses rather than women's clothes.

Yup, that accounts for those boobs, alright…