Are homosexuals transgendered to a certain degree?

[Frédérique]

If a male dresses as a female, most people assume he is homosexual. It ain’t necessarily so, as has been discussed ad nauseum in this section, yet the impression persists...

Using this twisted logic, could you say, with a certain degree of correctness, that a homosexual male who DOESN’T crossdress is transgendered? Do you have to crossdress, M to F, to declare your status as a transgendered person? You may be homosexual AND crossdress, thereby being associated with TG (I think), but what if you don’t crossdress at all?

Traditionally, effeminacy in males is aligned with homosexuality, but let’s not be stereotypical. When I dress-up, I affect certain femme characteristics to help me in my presentation – I let the “girl” emerge, and she makes me act in a pre-determined manner. However, I’m not attracted to my own birth gender, so I remain hetero, albeit a heterosexual with outwardly effeminate tendencies and a temporary femme appearance. The people who see me, all dressed-up in my best approximation of a female, will jump to the conclusion that I MUST be gay. Meanwhile, a gay male may exhibit a little less in the way of “manly” behavior or looks, outwardly showing himself to be more F than M to others, even though he's only doing what comes naturally. Doesn’t this translate into a definition of TG, at least in the loose manner that the word transgendered is bandied about in these parts?

Obviously, only a percentage of homosexual males may be effeminate, but everyone equates outward effeminacy with homosexuality – this falls on the MtF crossdresser, the practitioner of all things femme, like acid rain, but I’ve learned to live with it. Since TG implies living as the other gender, i.e. the one you weren’t born as, a gay person cannot be considered truly transgendered – he isn’t necessarily GOING from one gender to the other, yet he is somewhat genderfluid in his appearance and mannerisms, subjugated as they may or may not be. However, some people insist that ALL MtF crossdressers are transgendered, period. I would say that a gay male is WAY more transgendered than I will ever be, yet he may never crossdress, while I crossdress all the time. I wouldn’t grow a beard, either, but I digress...

My point is that if you’re going to stretch the term “transgendered” to fit all crossdressers, even though many of us have no intention of going on a lifelong journey from male to female, you may want to think about what’s going on with homosexuals. I mean, “T” and “G” are part of the same community, so certain gay males may have some kind of transgendered thing going on. Based on that, I can’t help but wonder why, when a male “comes out” as gay, nobody ever says, “Does this mean you’re transgendered?” As far as I can tell, that’s a decent question to ask, but transphobia eclipses homophobia all the time, and, in any event, ignorance rules. How did I come up with this weird way of looking at things? Well, I’ll tell ya...

Years ago I saw the movie Ma vie en rose at a (gay) movie house in Cambridge, MA. If you haven’t seen the film, it concerns a boy who thinks he’s a girl, so he crossdresses at every opportunity, much to the consternation of his parents, friends, and nearly everyone he meets. The boy believes he’s a girl, so he dresses as he feels he should, i.e. like a girl would – he takes an obvious interest in other boys, and he’s very comfy in the company of other females. By the end of the film, the mother, who has been at her wits end throughout, begins to realize the truth about her son, and she starts to accept him for what he is. A transgendered person, right? Well, that’s what I thought...

Later, I read some reviews of the movie, and several gay males chimed in, declaring that the movie in question was “a perfect description” of their childhood. How could that be? A boy participates in a transgendered act (crossdressing) to express his homosexuality, even though he has no interest in girls per se? I never even thought about something like that before, but here were several mature gay men (including the screenwriter) looking back on their childhood, trying not to shed a tear as they remembered a time when crossdressing came about innocently and naturally, a means to an end. All this points to the reason why L, G, B, & T exist under one imaginary roof – the same basic thing, under different terminology and different directional urges, is going on, and we are more alike than we are dissimilar...

If MtF crossdressing is presumed to be transgendered behavior, and you are presumed (or pre-judged) to be gay for doing it, or even THINKING of doing it, doesn’t it follow that you could be transgendered (to a certain degree) if you’re homosexual? You’re most likely crossdressing if you’re the former, and not necessarily crossdressing if you’re the latter, but aren’t these two ways of existing connected in some way, or different expressions of the same basic thing? I hope I’ve stated this with relative clarity for you all...

Since I’m on a site with many transgendered people, I thought I would ask the title question – it may boil down to how the different parts of the “community” feel about each other, but I think there must be a place where gay and TG cross paths, physically or mentally, even if you are one of those things and not the other. It’s too bad I’m not gay, because then my crossdressing could be better understood by all. As it is, I’m neither here nor there, and it feels kinda sad...
:sad:

What do you think? :thinking:

[CassandraSmith]

Cliff Notes (numbers correspond to paragraph text)--

1. CDing is often confused with being homosexual.
2. Are homosexuals a subset of the transgendered community?
3. Is there a correlation between effeminate behavior and homosexuality?
4. Are non-CDing gay males more transgendered than we are?
5. When a homosexual male comes out, why don't people ask if they are transgendered since G is part of the LGBT grouping?
6. In the movie Ma vie en rose, the central character believes he is a girl and in the end, lives her life as a straight female. Her mother finally accepts her internal identity, that of a gay transgendered person.
7. Several gay males were included in a review of the movie saying that it parallelled their lives. This is an argument in support of the LGBT grouping system.
8. It is assumed that MtF CDing is transgendered behavior. There is a prejudice that TG's are gay. Does this prove that all gays are transgendered?
9. Is there a place were gay and TG overlap? Being gay would make CDing easier to understand. There is sadness that this isn't true.

Summaries are fun to do and require discipline.

Now I can set about answering the basic question which appears to be "Is is a tragedy that CDing isn't about homosexuality?"

Nope, not a tragedy, more of an inconvenience really as it would be more socially acceptible to be a gay CDer. However, it would actually be more difficult sexually because it appears that most gays are attracted to masculinity rather than femininity.

________________
Point by point--

1. True but a false assumption generally.
2. Yes, they can be.
3. In some but not all.
4. Probably not. They're just attracted to same sex.
5. The grouping is arbitrary and is not a proof of anything. I disagree with the notion that the LGBT label actually proves anything. It's an arbitrary grouping of convenience. I like it on some levels but as a purely hetero CDer, I sometimes think it implies something that isn't there--same sex attraction.
6. I took your interpretation at face value; I haven't seen the film.
7. Heresay evidence is not a proof. There would need to be reliable statistical evidence to make any statement about usefulness of the grouping system in determining anything.
8. A prejudice does not prove anything. This is very illogical.
9. Yes, I've met a few CDers who seem to also be gay or bi. It's simply sad that we are not understood and accepted more than we are.

[KellyJameson]

I like this thread Freddy. I bet even your thinking cap is pretty.

Homosexuality is about "SEX" and within sex is the top (does to) or bottom (done to) and usually gay men have a strong preference for which one they are even though there are gay men who are comfortable in both roles

I am not gay so these are not my opinions but what has been shared by many of my gay friends over years of talking to them.

I was intensely interested in homosexuality for a long time to understand myself plus I just seem to enjoy people more who are on the LGBT spectrum because I "get" them.

Sex can be about dominance and submission so many bottoms want to be dominated and many tops are looking for submissives because dominance is sexually exciting for them. Dominance is an aggressive act while submissives is passive but it actually could be actively passive so almost a different form of dominance through submission so you get something by being used.

It is a intense mixture of psychology and sex with the psychology being made up by the persons relationship with the experience of being dominated (submissive) or dominating

This psychology plays out in heterosexual relationships as well.

In my mind being transgendered is identifying with the female which is something most homosexuals do not do.

There is a difference between being homosexual and a homosexual act so you are not automatically a homosexual by the act but only when you "identify" as "this is who I am and this is how I was born"

The sex "is you" and not just something you do.

Many here may want a homosexual act as a submissive because they associate being feminine with being submissive but this is only a reflection of their prejudicial and warped views about femininity that their masculinity "as sexuality" has "super imposed" over their concepts.

Heterosexual submissive females are actually uncommon and most woman, for survival against harsh environments, have learned to be as dominant as possible based on their unique circumstances. It is dangerous to the female to be submissive in this world.

A "heterosexual" submissive female is either pretending to be or is forced by circumstances that she would change if she could.

Only men can afford to be submissive.

Transgender is identification with the female. Why? Ahhh... That is where the story really gets interesting.

Gender and sexuality are the same expression except when they are not and it is when they are not you get those who are transgendered.

In my opinion you are not transgendered because it is not about "identification with the female as a female " but "identification as adoration of the female" A very male thing to do.

Crossdressers cannot automatically be labelled transgendered. Each crossdresser must decide that for themselves based on identification with the male or female sex.

I do not hold the female sex in as high esteem as most crossdressers. I mean you guys here worship woman which for me seems ridiculous and I was slow to understand why men worship women so much. Women are just women, they do not walk on water or anything.

If you worship females you probably are not transgendered as identification because that would be an act of self worship which seems a bit silly to me.

I suppose there are males who hate being males so reject their maleness for femininity but I hope self hate is not a reason for crossdressing or being transgendered because that could only lead to pain.

So a man who identifies as homosexual is not transgendered but a transgendered could perform a homosexual act.

A homosexual may act effeminate (submisssive) but if you called him female or implied he was acting feminine you could find yourself in some difficulties that require stitches, bandaids and other methods to stop bleeding

I do not like the word effeminate because it insults woman but used it to make my point based on the cultural usage of the word.

[flatlander_48]

To me, the simplest definition of transgender is where there is a mismatch between ones genitalia and the sex you believe yourself to be psychologically. People that are described by this description sometimes choose sexual reassignment surgery in an effort of correct the mismatch. However, I think this does not really apply to gay men. From my observation, and also using myself as a reference, gay and bisexual men tend to be comfortable in their own bodies. They are not looking to be something else, physically.

Lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgender people are together and come together essentially for one reason: political strength. From the reading I've done, it took a long time for the various elements of the gay movement to join together. Gay men thought that all lesbians hated men. Lesbians didn't want to be subservient to men. Both thought that there was no such thing as a bisexual and the concept of transgender was just an abstract notion. Although the movement was slowly coming together, AIDS is what really galvanized the community.

So, society at large tends to lump us together as it is. We are all considered to be sexual minorities. So, why not use this marginalized status as a benefit? What stands out is that we tend to be like everyone else, except for how we view ourselves sexually, who we choose for relational partners and who we choose to sleep with.


Homosexuality is about "SEX" and within sex is the top (does to) or bottom (done to) and usually gay men have a strong preference for which one they are even though there are gay men who are comfortable in both roles

Homosexuality isn't about sex any more than heterosexuality is about sex. That statement isn't any more true than the "it's a choice" B/S. We don't think about sex every moment of every waking hour. Saying that does us all a disservice and plays into how society at large tries to categorize us as only sexual beings.

[NathalieX66]

Liberace was as flamboyant as they come for a gay guy. I suspect his closetedness only made it worse for trying to express himself. Poor guy.

[flatlander_48]

Yes, I've met a few CDers who seem to also be gay or bi.


<<<<<<<<< Here.

[Michelle.M]

Homosexuality isn't about sex any more than heterosexuality is about sex.

I'm afraid you're gonna have to sell that one with a little more enthusiasm if you expect anyone to buy it. Support your statement, please.


That statement isn't any more true than the "it's a choice" B/S.

Your analogy is weak, and the two are wholly dissimilar.


Saying that does us all a disservice and plays into how society at large tries to categorize us as only sexual beings.

You're conflating the issue of sexual orientation (as described by the words "homosexual" and "heterosexual") with what you seem to regard as inappropriate categorization. Unless you live in a society without language then the categories are apt, and I don't believe that "society" is categorizing us in solely sexual terms.

And by the way, who is this "us" to whom you are referring? Homosexuals? Heterosexuals? Trans folks? All of the above?

[Beverley Sims]

Probably about as much as CD'ers and transgendered folk are.

[Sophie_C]

What you are talking about is an ill-educated and old way of thinking that is going the way of the dinosaurs. Just pass along this infograph to all those who don't "get it":

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Genderbread-2.1.jpg

The only reason you see a wider expression of gender variance in homosexuals (of both genders) is because they're FREE to express whoever they are, without consequence, and often take a bit of pride in it, once they're out. I honestly think the same degree of gender variance exists in heterosexuals, as well, but they're chained, so they can't do it. What you heard spoken in that theater was perfect evidence of that. Case in point: Look at how femme Ellen DeGeneres attempted to be when she was TRYING to be straight (and how uncomfortable she was being that way). Only after being out as being gay could she be the tomboy she ALWAYS was. Gender is not only two poles. There are shades of grey inbetween, at least for a small amount of people. Prince is as straight as it gets, but he's far from the typical "masculine" level that most hetero men are. As you can see, it has absolutely no connection to each other.

Note: There also is a "groupthink" thing going on, sort of a "on our team" sort of mentality which exists in the gay community, which sort of encourages the opposing gender expression to a tiny, tiny degree, being the reason you see more femme men and butch females there. It's a bit of a peer pressure thing and some of them actually hate it, the same way some straight people having to hold back their gender, having to fit their roles, as well. That's ALSO why you heard them talking about "oh, I can relate" and is the reason many gay men adopt a lisp (which isn't biological). They were just making a point of reinforcing how they were "on the same team" as their brothers. Just something to add in, for the "full" picture.

Evidence here: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/concerns-lipstick-lesbians-uk-revealed010213

[jenni_xx]

Nope, not a tragedy, more of an inconvenience really as it would be more socially acceptible to be a gay CDer. However, it would actually be more difficult sexually because it appears that most gays are attracted to masculinity rather than femininity.

I agree with this. In a sense, it's just as hard to come out as a crossdresser to a partner who is male as it is a partner who is female. The reason you state applies here - most gay men are attracted to masculinity just as straight women are, so the fear of rejection from a partner in light of their announcement as being a crossdresser will be present in either situation. And of course, effeminate men (who I wouldn't automatically think were transgendered) may find it more difficult to find a partner, irrespective of whether they are gay or straight, although I would hazard a guess that effeminate men who are straight will find it harder than effeminate men who are gay.

As for Freddy's question, I've thought long and hard about this and not entirely sure that I agree with that. Perhaps I'm not the best person to answer it, since I am both transgendered and gay. I have often wondered whether I'm transgendered because I'm gay, and hand on heart I'm not sure. But I don't believe I'm gay because I'm transgendered. In this respect, I identify first and foremost as a gay man and my status as a crossdresser comes further down the pecking order. More people know I'm gay than they do transgendered. My parents being a prime example. I'm lucky in that my husband does accept and indeed embrace my crossdressing (he knew from the very first night I met him), but he has never shown any signs whatsoever of being transgendered himself. In this respect, I would consider you, Freddy, a straight crossdresser, to be way more transgendered than I would my husband, a gay man. But then you essentially rebuke this, with your subsequent comment "yet he may never crossdress, while [you] crossdress all the time".

You are also right in saying that when a gay male comes out, he will rarely (if ever) face the question "are you transgendered". But then I understand why the question "are you gay" will be asked when a man comes out as transgendered. I'm sure this is frustrating to straight men should they be asked this question in light of their coming out as transgendered. I understand why it is asked though, because of the perceptions attached to crossdressing - a man who embraces femininity, and one facet of femininity is an attraction to masculinity. I am left in no doubt that when I walk down the street dressed in male clothing, anyone who passes me by will not automatically assume I am gay. Should I walk down the street dressed in female clothing however, I'm sure that people who pass me by will think that I am gay.

One final point - I agree with flatlander in his response to KellyJameson's comment. Homosexuals are no more sexual beings than heterosexuals are. We think about sex, want sex, and engage in sex, just as much as heterosexual people do. Yet we are at a disadvantage, because heterosexuality isn't regarded as a primary identifier of a heterosexual person - no one comes out as being straight after all. But once one comes out as homosexual, it lies at the forefront of our identity as an individual.

[LilSissyStevie]

Since I’m on a site with many transgendered people, I thought I would ask the title question – it may boil down to how the different parts of the “community” feel about each other, but I think there must be a place where gay and TG cross paths, physically or mentally, even if you are one of those things and not the other. It’s too bad I’m not gay, because then my crossdressing could be better understood by all. As it is, I’m neither here nor there, and it feels kinda sad...
:sad:

What do you think? :thinking:

Here's my experience. Back in the 70's the State of Maryland ran a trade school in Baltimore to provide vocational rehabilitation to the handicapped. You could be either physically or socially handicapped. I qualified under the misfits and losers category and because I was in one of my many "man up" phases, I took the course in machine shop and welding. It seemed masculine enough. One the largest, if not the largest, course at the school was Cosmetology. All of the genetic males in that course were either TS somewhere along the road to full transition or extremely effeminate gay men. They were socially handicapped because in those days cosmetology was one of the only jobs a trans or effeminate gay dude could work at, outside of the arts, without enduring extreme discrimination. This was the crowd that I naturally gravitated to since, even though I was trying to be more masculine, I still only felt comfortable the presence of women and feminine guys. Besides I was the most masculine person in that group.

One thing I noticed about the two groups (femme gay and trans) was that it wasn't all that easy to tell them apart from each other. Sometimes it was obvious and sometimes not. In those days, the tribes had not clearly delineated themselves from each other so both groups considered themselves part of the gay community. Both were very feminine. Both dressed more or less androgynous. Both tended to freely mix pronouns, sometimes even in the same sentence. Neither group was attracted to gay men, not even "straight acting" gay men. The main differences had to do with the use of make-up, hairstyles and facial hair (the "John Waters" mustache was very popular then.)

So the question in my mind at the time was: Are femme gay dudes transsexuals "in denial" or are transsexuals femme gay dudes "in denial"? (Non-androphillic transsexuals weren't even on my radar at the time and neither was the idea of transgender or genderqueer as they hadn't been invented yet.) Or, are they separate species? At the time, the last option seemed the least likely to tell the truth. But, it's best to let people provide their own labels and define them however they wish. That, after all, is what an "identity" is. But, then we would have to listen to people when they talk about themselves (how inconvenient) rather than just attach a pre-defined label and toss them into the proper bin.

One thing I did learn from the experience was that I'm not gay and I'm not transsexual. These were two "fears" that I had. But it didn't get me any closer to figuring out what was "wrong" with me.** That's still a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma.

**It has occurred to me I might be a gay bottom suffering from an erotic target location error(ETLE). The ETLE being that I'm attracted to females instead of males. :heehee:

[aussie cd]

i'm 100% straight in guy mode
but lately been having the desire about being en femme and having male company....done nothing yet but the wife insists that i can try if i want to , yet she runs down gays all the time if she shes them out and about.....mixed messages here....i said to her that whilst in female mode and being with her sexually makes me a lesbian and as such want to be with a male in femme mode would be straight, she seems to accept his.....my worry is if i go out and do get picked up (at a gay club they have a monthly trans night) what her reaction would be?

[Anna M]

Just to tease this apart a little further - CassandraSmith was quoted as saying "...it would be more socially acceptible to be a gay CDer. However, it would actually be more difficult sexually because it appears that most gays are attracted to masculinity rather than femininity."

First -- Unless Cassandra is referring to "within GLBT culture", it is not more socially acceptable; it simply conforms to commonplace stereotypes that conflate gender identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation. I believe these things correlate to each other and have a fair degree of interplay/reinforcement, but they are really independent variables in the sense that none of the the possibilities entails anything about any of the other two traits.

Second -- The preference for masculinity in the gay community is directly linked to femmephobia and misogyny in U.S. culture as a whole. Gay men are (usually unconsciously) mirroring the values of the larger culture in which they are embedded. If you want some useful food for thought on this, try Kate Bornstein's "My Gender Workbook".

[jenni_xx]

i'm 100% straight in guy mode
but lately been having the desire about being en femme and having male company....done nothing yet but the wife insists that i can try if i want to , yet she runs down gays all the time if she shes them out and about.....mixed messages here....i said to her that whilst in female mode and being with her sexually makes me a lesbian and as such want to be with a male in femme mode would be straight, she seems to accept his.....my worry is if i go out and do get picked up (at a gay club they have a monthly trans night) what her reaction would be?

That's quite a predicament that's been presented to you. From what you say, your wife doesn't like gay people, yet she is saying to you, her husband, that she would be ok if you engaged in homosexual activity. I don't know what to make of that. I will however say that since you are in a relationship with your wife (obviously), you really should be having no desires to sleep with anyone else, be it male or female.

For the record, even in femme mode, if you did go with a man then it woudln't be a "straight experience". Not even close. Nor does you being intimate with your wife make you a lesbian. If it did then that would make you wife a lesbian also. Is that something that she'd be happy to be identified as? From what you you say about her attitude to gay people, I would say not.

My question to you is - if you love your wife, then why are you even contemplating the idea of sleeping with other people? It sounds to me like it's just a fantasy of yours, and in that respect, it's probably best to keep it as a fantasy and no more than that.

[flatlander_48]

I'm afraid you're gonna have to sell that one with a little more enthusiasm if you expect anyone to buy it. Support your statement, please.

Your analogy is weak, and the two are wholly dissimilar.

You're conflating the issue of sexual orientation (as described by the words "homosexual" and "heterosexual") with what you seem to regard as inappropriate categorization. Unless you live in a society without language then the categories are apt, and I don't believe that "society" is categorizing us in solely sexual terms.

And by the way, who is this "us" to whom you are referring? Homosexuals? Heterosexuals? Trans folks? All of the above?

OK. the statement was "Homosexuality is about "SEX"". My response "Homosexuality isn't about sex any more than heterosexuality is about sex." is a comparison to the life that heterosexuals lead. How much does sex dominate their lives? I don't believe that gay people would be any different in this regard and, as far as I know, there isn't any evidence to suggest that it is.

When I said "That statement isn't any more true than the "it's a choice" B/S." relates to both statements not being grounded in fact. Sure, there are some people who actually believe both statements, but they're usually working some other agenda. Also, I'm pretty sure that the information those people received didn't come from a gay person.

Now, the disservice part is this. Many in the population at large believe that gay people are sick and that there is something fundamentally wrong with us (all of us, L's, G's, B's and T's, the gay community, understood?). There are also many who believe that we just shouldn't exist. Still others say that we are sex-crazed. That's where all the B/S gets started about gay people should not be teachers, counselors, coaches, etc.; basically any occupation that comes in contact with children. So, saying that "Homosexuality is about "SEX"" feeds these incorrect notions.

The thing is, we have to watch what we say. We shouldn't just throw out verbiage that can be used against us. Being gay goes beyond just sex. It is how one defines one self, who we select for relationships and how we align ourselves politically. It's not just sex.

[Julogden]

I've always felt that someone who is gay or lesbian is transgendered regarding their sexuality. Some gay or lesbian people have gender identity issues too.

I get annoyed when gay men try to imply that people like the main character in Ma Vie En Rose is actually gay. The film is a favorite of mine, and the main character is clearly trans, not gay, in my opinion.

Carol

[DeeDeeB]

I'm sorry, but as TGs, I don't understand why we are trying so hard to "label" other people. We all are individuals, and as such are a combimation of male, female, gay, straight, and all the other combinations therein and thereout. Let us try to understand and respect ourselves, and let everyone else be themselves. Quite frankly, beyond that, it ain't none of our business.

:fairy1:
DeeDee

[aussie cd]

thanks jenni

i think your are right re fantasy and i do love her for ever and she the same with me, but i'm confused with my femme side which i've had all my life i'll just have to go unfulfilled in this department as i cant lose her

[vetobob9]

Actually homosexuality and transgenderism have proven to have very similar biochemical roots which affect a person's Dna inutero.

[jenni_xx]

I've always felt that someone who is gay or lesbian is transgendered regarding their sexuality. Some gay or lesbian people have gender identity issues too.

I get annoyed when gay men try to imply that people like the main character in Ma Vie En Rose is actually gay. The film is a favorite of mine, and the main character is clearly trans, not gay, in my opinion.

Carol

I love the film Ma Vie En Rose. It's a film that "speaks" a lot to me. I do see it as a film that is addressing transsexual issues, but no more so than homosexual issues. It works, and works incredibly well, as an analogy for gay people. There is a dividing line when taken literally, but as an analogy, it is making a statement on how how a young gay man will identify himself as female in order to exhibit his own desires to be accepted within his own family. I view the film essentially as an innocent boy who desires to be a girl so that the boy he falls in love with will accept him. It's an assumption on his part in that respect. In this young child's naivety, he sees that in embracing femininity, he is more able to be accepted by the boy he loves.

But that's only one reading of the film. I do view it as a film that is open to interpretation, and intentionally so on behalf of the film-makers. Another, equally valid interpretation, is that the boy regards himself as a girl first and foremost, and because he identifies himself as a girl, the idea of him being gay is out of the question.

But above all, the film is a statement on acceptance. That is, the boy doesn't understand what it is that he is doing wrong. The film therefore is making a statement on what society expects from us, from a very early age, and how we are expected to conform. All the boy wants to do is conform, the only difference being he wants to conform to his own ideals, not those that society expects from him. And because the central character is so young, he simply can not wrap his head around that. Thus for me, what the film is ultimately stating is that it is not that we should be defined by social constraints, but that we should follow our own heart. We should do what makes us happy. No matter how much it may upset those around us, even when upsetting those around us is the last thing we want to do. And it's for that reason that I think it is a film that is just as important to gay people learning to understand themselves from such an early age, as it is a film about trans people equally coming to terms with themselves.

[mikiSJ]

I have only known about 10 individuals who would describe themselves as gay; 8 men and two women.

None of these individuals, whether effeminate or masculine, male or female would ever describe themselves as transgendered. They were simply gay, individuals attracted to the same sex.

[Rebecca Star]

What you are talking about is an ill-educated and old way of thinking that is going the way of the dinosaurs.

The wheels of change move slowly but they are picking up speed. Granted there are still a lot of "ill-educated" people around. But I think there is a larger group of people these days who are inquisitive in a positive way, especially the younger set, who are open to embracing indifference and accepting it.

While we as a society tend to gravitate toward labels, maybe one day these too will be a thing of the past :)

[Rogina B]

I'm sorry, but as TGs, I don't understand why we are trying so hard to "label" other people. We all are individuals, and as such are a combimation of male, female, gay, straight, and all the other combinations therein and thereout. Let us try to understand and respect ourselves, and let everyone else be themselves. Quite frankly, beyond that, it ain't none of our business.

:fairy1:
DeeDee

Absolutely right!Labels are wrong... I just posted in the Media section with directions[sort of a link] toward getting to the best gender discussion thus far..FIFTY SHADES OF GAY by io tillet wright.Also referenced as Eighteen Minutes and Eighteen Seconds..concerning the broad spectrum of gender.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

we should stop using label as a perjorative
labels certainly matter to transsexuals...i guess this is cd forum but there is lots of cross talk...maybe crossdressers generally feel differently..

as ts , we fight very hard to just be called women..and we are disbelieved by a significant number of people..

labels also matter in communication.....as a woman, i communicate very differently than a man and its life affirming to have that communication reflected back at me...

if you are crossdressing but think of yourself as a woman only when you dress, do you want to be talked to by that clerk as a woman? or as a crossdresser? or as something else?? unless your answer who cares AND its really true that you don't care, then labels matter...anyway, its just another way to say "identity"..don't you want your identity reflected back at you in an affirming way???

i think saying "no labels" is just a way of avoiding the real issue which is that cd's and transsexuals are not fully embraced and accepted, no labels is a non answer, and sometimes its easier to look for a non answer rather than standing up for what you are, or for accepting the reality of the situation...sometimes we are called "its" and "things" by terrible people...no labels just feeds into that... F' them...i am what i am...and it has a name...
celebrate your difference don't hide inside it..

+++++

conflating homesexuality with crossdressing and transgenderism just adds more confusing terminology....let me ask ..
what is the specific benefit of agreeing even amongst ourselves that gay people are just a little transgendered...does it make you feel better? does it help others understand you? who cares whether there is biological similarity...all humans shares lots of biological similarities...

[Michelle.M]

The thing is, we have to watch what we say. We shouldn't just throw out verbiage that can be used against us.

OK, good points. I probably would not have come to similar conclusions, but I like your thought process. Thanks!

[flatlander_48]

OK, good points. I probably would not have come to similar conclusions, but I like your thought process. Thanks!

Not a problem. The thing is, when we have conversations here, the majority of folks are already "read in" (to use a spy term). We usually know the context and the background. But, if someone who is not of The Tribe hears a conversation like we have but out in public, they might come away with the idea that we are all sex fiends, none of the kids are safe around us, we're looking to recruit, or any one of a dozen erroneous stereotypes. As they say, One Oh S++t wipes out a Dozen Attagirls... For folks with no background to process the kinds of things that we talk about, their opinions could be set in stone and there's no way to change that.

So, basically as long as things like gay marriage, the Employee Non-Discrimination Act and Gender Expression Non-Discrimination Act are still part of the political discourse, we need to be careful.

[ReineD]

I went online to see how LGBT communities look at this, and found this definition from "The Center", a LGBTcommunity center in New York. Judging from the size of their website, activities, and resources, they are quite big.

http://www.gaycenter.org/gip/transbasics/whatistrans

Their definition for transgender: "at it's most basic level, is a word that applies to someone who doesn't fit within society's standards of how a woman or a man is supposed to look or act". So if the standards for male and female sexual behavior is to be attracted to the opposite than birth sex, then lesbians and gays would fit under the transgender umbrella according to this definition.

However, umpteen groups will adamantly say that gender identity and cross-gender behaviors are NOT tied to sexual orientation, which means the transgender umbrella only covers people whose gender identities and/or cross-gender behaviors differ from what is normative for their assigned sex in a given culture and historical period (the WPATH definition). I personally agree with this.

To answer your question, it is my opinion that gays and lesbians who do not crossdress are not transgender, although there may well be people who do identify transgender who do not crossdress, whether they are gay or straight. Conversely if they crossdress habitually and it is not for the sole purpose of entertainment, then they fall under the transgender umbrella. If gay males habitually put on feminine clothing as a parody of women and they get satisfaction from doing this, then I would consider them under the transgender umbrella too. They key here is "habitually", and not an occasional, on a lark situation.

[Rogina B]

we should stop using label as a perjorative
labels certainly matter to transsexuals...i guess this is cd forum but there is lots of cross talk...maybe crossdressers generally feel differently..

as ts , we fight very hard to just be called women..and we are disbelieved by a significant number of people..

labels also matter in communication.....as a woman, i communicate very differently than a man and its life affirming to have that communication reflected back at me...

if you are crossdressing but think of yourself as a woman only when you dress, do you want to be talked to by that clerk as a woman? or as a crossdresser? or as something else?? unless your answer who cares AND its really true that you don't care, then labels matter...anyway, its just another way to say "identity"..don't you want your identity reflected back at you in an affirming way???

i think saying "no labels" is just a way of avoiding the real issue which is that cd's and transsexuals are not fully embraced and accepted, no labels is a non answer, and sometimes its easier to look for a non answer rather than standing up for what you are, or for accepting the reality of the situation...sometimes we are called "its" and "things" by terrible people...no labels just feeds into that... F' them...i am what i am...and it has a name...
celebrate your difference don't hide inside.
What is wrong with just being treated as a person? That is why I am against labels. At some point in your transition,you were certainly "a freak of nature".Wouldn't referring to you by your name have been better than being referred to as a "he she"? You wouldn't like that label!

[Claire Cook]

As usual, Freddie's are most thought-provoking (even if they do take a while to digest!). Much as I dislike labels, I do think that this requires the discussion that it is generating. I love the GenderBread model that Sophie gave us, and it expresses my feelings on the matter. (And, as usual, I agree with Reine's wisdom.) There is an issue here -- the distinctions between gender identification, sexual orientation and just plain sex. This is something many of us face when our wives / GF's find out about us -- is he gay? Does he want to transition? So yes, this is a serious issue.

The answer, at least IMHO, is that these are sets that can be intersecting -- or not. Do gay men identify as women? Some do, but I'd guess most don't. Do Lesbians identify as men? Same answer. Are TG's gay? Some of us are, some aren't. (Some of us MtF's may consider ourselves Lesbians -- so how does that enter into the equation?) I think it's a mistake to confuse these issues. Just because I identify strongly with the woman within does not mean that I need a man -- I certainly do not.

I guess I'm just a GenderBread Cookie!

[Belfast Bill]

I think that a number of them are, but it is not cool to admit that you are. There are quite a few younger boys on Youtube making transformation videos or drag queen videos, and the plain simple fact is that they are dressing for their own pleasure in their bedrooms, with no thought ot possibility of performing on stage. They simply love dressing up, they love the makeup, the heels, the attention which it brings them, one gay friend said to me, "better to be a glamorous diva at a club then be a dull little queen, whom no one notices!" A pretty honest view I thought.

[NicoleScott]

we should stop using label as a perjorative

KM, I'm a CD, not a TS, but I couldn't agree more with you about labels.

Labels are words, and words have definitions. Without labels, defining and differentiating between sex, gender, sexual preference, gender identity, gay, bi, CD, TS, etc., the general public will continue to think we're all the same and call us all just plain ol' queer.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What is wrong with just being treated as a person? That is why I am against labels. At some point in your transition,you were certainly "a freak of nature".Wouldn't referring to you by your name have been better than being referred to as a "he she"? You wouldn't like that label!

I get a name as well..its Kaitlyn..
what does that have to do with anything?? where did i say there was something wrong with being treated as person??

not liking a label is different than making the broad assumption that labels are wrong... i like some of the ways i am labeled...i'm more than just a person...

...if someone says oh you are a freak or just a man in a dress...i don't say "don't label me"... i say "no , i'm a woman"..

[flatlander_48]

KM, I'm a CD, not a TS, but I couldn't agree more with you about labels.

Labels are words, and words have definitions. Without labels, defining and differentiating between sex, gender, sexual preference, gender identity, gay, bi, CD, TS, etc., the general public will continue to think we're all the same and call us all just plain ol' queer.

Isn't it funny that those who rail against labels USE them in their posts? I'd like to see them try to write WITHOUT using labels.

I think what happens is that people get really rigid about the notion of labels. A label doesn't really have to be 100% true. All it has to be is mostly true in order for it to be useful. Plus, we change. We're probably never 100% anything. I identify as bisexual. Does that imply 50/50, 80/20, 20/80 or what? It doesn't really make any difference in order for the term to be a useful descriptor. If the discussion is about misapplied labels, then that is a useful discussion. However, if the question is labels, yes or no, then it has to be YES.

[Ressie]

Everybody puts others in some category if only in their mind. It's the way the brain works. That label might be considered good or bad, but people form opinions of others within seconds of seeing them. Those opinions and categorizations might change after talking to them for a few minutes.

I have no opinion on the original question, because I lack the knowledge needed to do so. I've never thought about it to tell the truth. But I'll admit that I've seen TGs that appeared more gay than some gay men I've met.