S. O. S. Are we Sensitive Or Selfish?

[jenni_xx]

Upon reading many threads here, I have found that I have been enlightened by some and intrigued by others.

Today I read a thread in which a cd wrote about his "life fulfilling moments". He wrote about a day at work (in what would be considered quite a "masculine" job) while underdressing. His post was met with several replies, some of which talked about his situation presenting an opportunity in which he could have outed himself. One response in particular struck a chord with me. This response focused around a possible opportunity in which he could have mentioned to his clients about the underwear he was wearing.

I had to read that post twice, just to be sure I understood what exactly was being said, and also to try to contemplate the tone/intention of said reply. Whether it was serious, joking, sarcastic, or none of the above or something else entirely. I'm still not sure exactly what the author of that post meant. It was suggested that, in a professional environment, to talk to clients about the underwear one is wearing could result in more business for the OP of particular thread.

Personally speaking, and I have to emphasise that I am only expressing my opinion, were I underdressing in a professional environment (i.e. at work), then there would be only two reasons why I would do so. One, because I wanted to wear feminine garments because that's what I like to wear. And two, these are beneath the clothes that are more traditionally male because I don't want anyone else to know that I am wearing such clothing. After all, if I wanted people to know that I like to crossdress, then I would make it much more obvious than hiding such garments underneath male attire.

Numerous other threads see posters talk about their experiences in either coming out to their SO's, or coming out to friends, or their experiences in dressing in public. All incredibly important threads, and all resulting in discussions and comments that help us all and encourage us all. There is one thing that binds such threads (and comments) together. And that is a desire, a need, a want, to be accepted. Be it our SO's, be it our friends, or be it strangers who we will only ever once pass in the street. Then there are numerous threads about passing, that is, passing as woman, which should it happen would mean that it isn't acceptance that is the goal, because if we do pass then that would mean that anyone who we encounter wouldn't deem us as a "man in a dress" but simply as another woman.

Then I read threads about how so many of us express our feminine side, and either adopt feminine traits, or allow our feminine side to come to the fore, resulting in mannerisms, expressions, or simply our true identity which we would otherwise repress, to be expressed. And one trait of femininity is that of being sensitive. But are we being selfish in our need to be able to express our femininity in this regard?

Would it be selfish or sensitive to out ourselves at work, say at work, to our clients, telling them that underneath our clothing we are wearing feminine garments? Would it be an expression of selfishness or sensitivity to feel confident enough to walk down the street not caring whether we passed or not?

I truly don't know the answer to the questions that I ask. I will say that no matter the environment we find ourselves in, we have just as much right to express ourselves as anyone else does, but just as anyone else will recognise, there simply has to be constraints to this, irrespective of how we feel about such social constraints or not. To use a simplistic example, people will judge a woman wearing provocative clothing walking down the high street at 9am in the morning much more so than they will should they encounter the same woman in a nightclub at 9pm at night. People will judge a man going into an office wearing jeans and trainers in a different way than they will judge a man going into the same office wearing a suit and shoes. There is the saying "clothes maketh the man". So how does that apply to us transgendered folk? What kind of "man" does our choice in clothing makes us?

Which leads me to my ultimate question - one that I have often thought long and hard about. If we lived in a society in which there were no gender divide in regards to clothing, which would mean that the term "crossdress" couldn't possibly exist, then how would that make us feel? A part of me wants to be recognised as a crossdresser, while another part of me just wants to be able to express myself in anyway that I wish without any judgement (or indeed label) being placed upon me. But then part of the attraction for me lies with me crossing the gender divide, and knowing that other people know that that is who I am. It gives me a sense of identity, and a feeling of being proud of who I am. Embracing it, and not caring what others think. But does that make me selfish?

[CynthiaD]

In one sense I think that crossdressing is incredibly self-centered. We dress in a way that is considered strange, regardless of the effect it will have on other people, particularly the ones closest to us. HOWEVER, I believe that catering to our own needs makes us more able to be sensitive to the needs of others.

Look at it this way. If you we're starving, you wouldn't care a whit about world hunger. You would only think about feeding yourself. But if you were well fed, you would have the time to worry about the needs of others.

Putting it another way, if you don't love yourself, you will have a hard time loving others. By satisfying our own needs, we put ourselves into a state where we can be sensitive to the needs of others. Thus the answer to your question is both. We are being selfish and sensitive.

[jenni_xx]

That's a great reply. Thank you Cynthia.

[Rocker Chick]

Which leads me to my ultimate question - one that I have often thought long and hard about. If we lived in a society in which there were no gender divide in regards to clothing, which would mean that the term "crossdress" couldn't possibly exist, then how would that make us feel? A part of me wants to be recognised as a crossdresser, while another part of me just wants to be able to express myself in anyway that I wish without any judgement (or indeed label) being placed upon me. But then part of the attraction for me lies with me crossing the gender divide, and knowing that other people know that that is who I am. It gives me a sense of identity, and a feeling of being proud of who I am. Embracing it, and not caring what others think. But does that make me selfish?

There's no way a society like that will exist, unless we are all robots. Then like you said cross dressing won't even matter. Society needs to evolve. The manner of dress needs to evolve.

[ReineD]

It was suggested that, in a professional environment, to talk to clients about the underwear one is wearing could result in more business for the OP of particular thread.



Would it be selfish or sensitive to out ourselves at work, say at work, to our clients, telling them that underneath our clothing we are wearing feminine garments? Would it be an expression of selfishness or sensitivity to feel confident enough to walk down the street not caring whether we passed or not?

I could not find that thread. But I don't think that ANY discussion of underwear belongs in a professional environment .. no matter the gender, regardless of whether someone is wearing gender congruent underwear or not. It would be highly inappropriate for a woman to discuss her panties with clients, for example. The person who posted this was either in a deep pink fog, or was just posturing from behind the anonymity of the internet and would not contemplate doing such a think in his personal life.

On the other hand, if you are transsexual and you plan on living full time as a woman, then disclosing this (and not the brand of your underwear) is not only desirable, it is necessary. Eventually you will be presenting full time as a woman and people will know anyway.

If there are no plans to live full time as a woman, then I would only disclose the crossdressing if you intend on fully (not just the underwear) presenting as a woman in your work environment on occasion. But, judging by what I know about our current culture, this is not something that most people are ready to accept and doing this might jeopardize your job. Therefore, I would consult with the HR department first.



If we lived in a society in which there were no gender divide in regards to clothing, which would mean that the term "crossdress" couldn't possibly exist, then how would that make us feel?

If we lived in a society in which men and women ceased to differentiate themselves (if everyone shaved their heads, no one wore makeup or jewelry, and everyone wore the same clothes in the same fabrics and colors), then crossdressers would have to satisfy themselves with wearing breast forms and hip pads.



Embracing it, and not caring what others think. But does that make me selfish?

No. However, it might cause you to suffer certain losses, such as relationships or your job and you would need to be OK with this in addition to having a plan B. If you have a family that depends on your income in any way even if your wife also works, then it would be selfish for you to risk losing your job. And since we do live in a biased society, if your wife was not equally enthusiastic about coming out to everyone, it would be selfish to out yourself without consulting with her first, since the outing would also affect her own relationships with people.

But, you are certainly not selfish for presenting as a woman in venues where your job would not be threatened, or where the people that your wife would not wish to tell would not run into you.

[jenni_xx]

I could not find that thread. But I don't think that ANY discussion of underwear belongs in a professional environment .. no matter the gender, regardless of whether someone is wearing gender congruent underwear or not. It would be highly inappropriate for a woman to discuss her panties with clients, for example. The person who posted this was either in a deep pink fog, or was just posturing from behind the anonymity of the internet and would not contemplate doing such a think in his personal life.

I completely agree with you. The thread's title in question is called "Life's little moments", and upon reading the post in question (in which the poster expressed the possibility that in coming out to his clients in wearing feminine underwear it might result in being good for business), I couldn't help but feel that the only thing that would be good for business is doing a good job to which we are employed to do, and discussing such matters of a completely personal nature is more likely than not to have an adverse affect (or at least an affect that wouldn't increase business in any way).

I do think that when the pink fog descends, and descends on us it invariably does, when we are enveloped within this pink fog, I do think that it does result in a more selfish attitude bestowing upon us. That is, the desire to embrace our dressing becomes so intense that we will forgo the sensitivity of others in order to attain our own "selfish" needs.


On the other hand, if you are transsexual and you plan on living full time as a woman, then disclosing this (and not the brand of your underwear) is not only desirable, it is necessary. Eventually you will be presenting full time as a woman and people will know anyway.

Again I completely agree. This would of course however disregard the whole idea of under-dressing. Like I said in my opening post, the very idea of under-dressing is to embrace our feminine side while at the same time hide it. If I wanted people to know that I was crossdressing, then I wouldn't hide it. Which negates the very idea of telling people that I am under-dressing (in which case I may as well just express it so that everyone I encountered could work it out for themselves without the need for me to say anything). Or in other words, I wouldn't have to disclose anything verbally. For I'd be presenting myself as a woman (in my own mind) while at the same time presenting myself as transgendered in the mind of everyone else.


If there are no plans to live full time as a woman, then I would only disclose the crossdressing if you intend on fully (not just the underwear) presenting as a woman in your work environment on occasion. But, judging by what I know about our current culture, this is not something that most people are ready to accept and doing this might jeopardize your job. Therefore, I would consult with the HR department first.

Exactly. Exactly the crux of what I am attempting to get at with the questions that I am asking in this thread. Thank you for writing this Reine.


No. However, it might cause you to suffer certain losses, such as relationships or your job and you would need to be OK with this in addition to having a plan B. If you have a family that depends on your income in any way even if your wife also works, then it would be selfish for you to risk losing your job. And since we do live in a biased society, if your wife was not equally enthusiastic about coming out to everyone, it would be selfish to out yourself without consulting with her first, since the outing would also affect her own relationships with people.

I regard myself as very fortunate. I work for myself from home, so on a daily basis I can dress how I like without the fear of upsetting anyone or my dressing affecting my income. I am also fortunate that my husband (I am a gay male) is completely accepting of my dressing, and knew about it from the very first time we met (I wasn't dressed, but told him about it in conversation). What is interesting is that it is much easier to identify myself as a gay man in everyday circumstances, without fearing any negativity, or rather at least as much negativity as I feel would happen were I to announce that I am transgendered in the exact same circumstance. For example, I can go and get my haircut and quite happily chat away with the hairdresser about my plans for the weekend with my husband, but I don't feel as comfortable, as at ease talking about my crossdressing. In regards to my work, I do interact with clients, but this is over the phone or by email. While I have never felt it necessary to disclose my sexuality or my crossdressing to them (simply because it is not necessary and it has nothing to do with my work (thus would be unprofessional)), I do feel that if they did know that I was gay, then it wouldn't have any affect on my business whatsoever in terms of their willingness to bring work my way. I don't feel the same about crossdressing. Even in today's more accepting society, it wouldn't surprise me if this did result in affecting their willingness to bring work my way. It saddens me to say that, but I do feel that way. I do feel that the transgendered community has some way to go yet to get to the level of acceptance that gay people have attained.

[LaraPeterson]

Jenni, your ultimate question, like most other hypotheticals I've ever read, lives way too far from reality for serious consideration. Your original question, however, does not. My response will likely be considered overly simplistic but I like that sort of explanation instead of wordy diatribes that don't lead anywhere. Sensitive people, regardless of their gender presentation, are not generally selfish and the opposite holds true for selfish individuals.


A part of me wants to be recognised as a crossdresser, while another part of me just wants to be able to express myself in anyway that I wish without any judgement (or indeed label) being placed upon me. But then part of the attraction for me lies with me crossing the gender divide, and knowing that other people know that that is who I am. It gives me a sense of identity, and a feeling of being proud of who I am. Embracing it, and not caring what others think. But does that make me selfish?

Those who are intent on judging and labeling you. . .will; nothing you can do about that. Let them be bigots, idiots, low-lifes. . .choose your unkind descriptive term, it will certainly fit and be well deserved. Finally, your writing shows clearly that you are not a selfish person. Go on being proud of yourself, embrace it, and don't let anyone rob you of your joy.

[ReineD]

I agree with you Jenni, it's a lot easier to be accepted as a gay man than transgender.

There was a thread here I think it was last year, asking the gay members how they were faring in their personal lives with partners. I was surprised to see that gay men are just as queasy about being in relationships with men who want to present as women, as are hetero females. You are fortunate that your husband approves of your dressing.

Still, he may be like many GGs? He may be accepting as long as he thinks it is no more serious than a kink or a pastime/hobby. But, he may have second thoughts if he discovers that it is your expression of a deeper identity? I'm assuming that like the average hetero female, gay men want to be with men and not with partners who identify as women?

[docrobbysherry]

I'm with Lara, Jenni. Not to put down your entire post, but the telling folks at work, "-- about your underwear and what if we all looked alike", parts r bordering on the ridiculous!

However, the "sensitive vs selfish" issue merits some thot. I believe as a dresser, I am sensitive about my being so selfish!

[Beverley Sims]

I think selfish, it is like forcing my religion onto the next person.
I keep these things to my close circle of like minded people.
Strangers will only go eww!
Some get enjoyment from under dressing, we probably all do but it is just one step on the journey.
We write about when we do it for the first time and after that it is been there done that.
This goes for all the firsts I think. There is so much sense of achievement in it so why not tell others, "I have done it."

[jenni_xx]

I agree with you Jenni, it's a lot easier to be accepted as a gay man than transgender.

There was a thread here I think it was last year, asking the gay members how they were faring in their personal lives with partners. I was surprised to see that gay men are just as queasy about being in relationships with men who want to present as women, as are hetero females. You are fortunate that your husband approves of your dressing.

Still, he may be like many GGs? He may be accepting as long as he thinks it is no more serious than a kink or a pastime/hobby. But, he may have second thoughts if he discovers that it is your expression of a deeper identity? I'm assuming that like the average hetero female, gay men want to be with men and not with partners who identify as women?

If it's the thread I'm thinking about, then I posted several times in it (the thread I'm thinking about was created by Maya, who I chatted with quite a lot a while back and who is a wonderful person).

You're right in what you say - many/majority of gay men, like the majority of straight women, want to be with men and not partners who identify as women. So in that respect I face the same obstacles and fears that many straight cd's face in regards to their SO's. And that fear is based around the possibility of rejection. I told my husband the first night we met, and he was intrigued and asked me lots of questions, but even despite him knowing right from the get go made the choice that he still wanted to enter into a relationship with me. In that respect I regard myself as incredibly fortunate to find someone who does accept me as other cd's who gain acceptance from their female partners do.

The way I approach my cross-dressing is to express this side of me whenever I feel the need to, which at it's very essence could be construed as selfish. It is part of my make-up (no pun intended), but in being an integral part of me I'm lucky enough that my husband is able to understand that as a whole it is part of the "package" to which he is attracted to. I have asked him if he would prefer it if I wasn't transgendered, and his response was to say that he loves me for who I am, and that my crossdressing is part of who I am then he accepts it and just wants me to be happy. I feel very privileged to have such a supportive partner. But just as he recognises my needs, I recognise his also, so I don't push it, or over do it. He does want a male partner, and he's got one, and to be honest we do spend much more of our time together as two men.

When we married (I call it marriage because that is what it is to me, although legally it's defined as a civil partnership), we did talk long and in depth about whether I wanted to get married wearing a wedding dress. I personally did, but after taking everything into account came to the conclusion that it would be best for us both to present ourselves as men. All our family and friends were present, and we both equally felt as though it would have been too much for some people to take, and because it was a gay marriage, and we were fortunate enough to have everyone accept that, we didn't want to push it. In short, if I had wore a wedding dress it may have run the possibility of people finding it funny instead of serious. Such is the level of acceptance towards gay people as opposed to transgendered people. We have only been married for just under two years (it will be two years come May), and we have discussed the possibility of renewing our vows with me dressed, and with not as many people present, but as yet this hasn't been given enough serious consideration that it will happen any time soon. And I'm completely ok with that. What's most important to me is that both me and Danny (my husband) are happy. And our relationship is strong because we are so considerate towards eachother.

[Foxglove]

In one sense I think that crossdressing is incredibly self-centered. We dress in a way that is considered strange, regardless of the effect it will have on other people, particularly the ones closest to us.

Thus the answer to your question is both. We are being selfish and sensitive.

I disagree very strongly here. We transpeople are not selfish because we want to be ourselves. Imagine telling a GG, "You're so selfish. You insist on being a woman." Or telling a GM, "You're so selfish. You insist on being a man."

Yet when transpeople want to be trans, we're told we're being selfish--and sometimes it's even other transpeople telling us that. Yes, the reality for many transpeople is that things would go hard on them and their families if their inclinations were widely known. So, yes, transpeople have to consider certain things that other people don't.

But this doesn't mean we're being selfish. It means that society has unfairly placed a burden on us that they haven't placed on others. Imagine a GG trying to hide the fact that she's a woman because if people found that out, her kids would be bullied at school. Or a GM having to hide the fact that he's a man so his boss doesn't boot him out. Society discriminates against us for no justifiable reason--and if we don't meekly go along with that, we're told we're being selfish.

When I became a single parent, I withdrew deep in the closet for fear the social workers might take my son off me. In Ireland at the time that was a very justifiable fear. And that cost me a lot. Imagine a GG or GM having to hide their identity so that their kid isn't taken off them. And if I resent this deeply to this day, does this mean I'm selfish? Or does it perhaps mean that Ireland is just a wee bit unfair to transpeople?

People we do what we have to do. If you have good reason to stay in the closet, by all means stay there. Your life, your choice, and I guarantee you no one will ever take any flak from me over that question. But for Pete's sake, do we have to take the blame for what society does to us?


I was surprised to see that gay men are just as queasy about being in relationships with men who want to present as women, as are hetero females.

Reine, I wouldn't consider myself expert on gay guys, but this doesn't surprise me. After all, aren't gay guys, like hetero GG's, attracted to masculinity? So I can understand that a gay guy might not be attracted to an MTF.

One final comment: the OP assumes that women are more sensitive than men. Yeah, well, it depends on which women we're talking about. I've known plenty who wouldn't score terribly high in the sensitivity ratings. Neither have I ever seen any real, scientific data that would justify the assertion. Women, like men, are a mixed lot.

Annabelle

[ArleneRaquel]

Now that I'm living alone, as my wife died in late 2002, and retired I feel that I am not being selfish by presenting myself as a female. If I was retired and my wife was still living and I decide that I needed to live 24/7 as a woman I would be selfish if I didn't take into consideration her feelings, which I feel would be negative.

[ReineD]

The way I approach my cross-dressing is to express this side of me whenever I feel the need to, which at it's very essence could be construed as selfish.

Thank you for sharing your story, and no, you are not selfish. You have every right to express who you are.

The question of selfishness materializes under two circumstances:

1. When the cross-gender expression comes up after the couple is committed, which removes the choice from the partner if they cannot wrap their mind around an alternate gender identity or an alternate mode of gender expression. This is not your situation.

2. When each partner has a different view about the degree of outedness, the frequency of expression, etc, and the CD/TG ignores his partner's wishes, for example he dresses in secret or he confides in other people despite the partner's wishes or otherwise goes behind the partners back, or he goes into a pink fog and spends a lot of his time on the CDing, the shopping, and online activities and ignores the partner ... instead of sitting down and being clear about intent and boundaries. This doesn't look to be at issue in your relationship either, since you and your partner appear to be on the same page, so you're good to go!

If in the course of your gender exploration you eventually discover that you are not, in fact, a gay male but you are rather a straight transwoman, then I would face this with your partner as soon as possible.

[Foxglove]

Now that I'm living alone, as my wife died in late 2002, and retired I feel that I am not being selfish by presenting myself as a female. If I was retired and my wife was still living and I decide that I needed to live 24/7 as a woman I would be selfish if I didn't take into consideration her feelings, which I feel would be negative.

Arlene, regarding my comments in my previous post, I always make an exception in the case of SO's. If a transperson goes into a relationship without putting his SO fully in the picture concerning his trans nature, then yes, he owes it to her to take her feelings into account. A woman does have the right to decide whether or not she wants to get into a relationship with someone.

As for children, I'm in two minds about that. I'm not convinced that having a trans parent and being aware of that fact from a very young age will harm a child in any way. I think the repercussions of having a trans parent are imposed on a child by society, not by us. Therefore, I think the blame for a parent's necessity to remain in the closet lies with society, and a parent can be exonerated of the charge of selfishness. I went into the closet for my child's sake. As I said, that cost me a lot for 16 years, and I reject the notion that my resentment over that fact is due to selfishness on my part. Fact is, unlike most people in this world, transpeople aren't always allowed to be themselves.

Annabelle

[I'd agree with Reine's comments in her last post, which she posted while I was writing up my post.]

[jenni_xx]

One final comment: the OP assumes that women are more sensitive than men. Yeah, well, it depends on which women we're talking about. I've known plenty who wouldn't score terribly high in the sensitivity ratings. Neither have I ever seen any real, scientific data that would justify the assertion. Women, like men, are a mixed lot.

Annabelle

Actually I assume no such thing. I said that one trait of femininity is sensitivity. Not that this trait is exclusive to women. For it clearly is not. But within both men and women there will be varying degrees in which people display, or express, what are traditionally regarded to be feminine or masculine traits, irrespective of their gender. Like you (quite rightly) say, women, like men, are a mixed lot. And within that mix both will express traits that are traditionally associated with femininity and masculinity.

For example, what is regarded to be female attire is not a trait of femininity, rather an external expression of an internal femininity.

In understanding my post, a distinction needs to be drawn between the terms "femininity" and "women". When I say femininity, I am not referring specifically to women. In a place such as this, I had assumed, perhaps wrongly, that that would be a given.

After all, I am a man. Yet I am feminine. Yet no matter how feminine I regard myself to be, or how feminine I express myself, that doesn't make me a woman. I am still a man.

Putting on make-up, clothes that are traditionally regarded to be for women, presently myself externally as a woman, ultimately makes me no closer to being a woman than a man who only ever wears clothes designed for men. I, for one, recognise this distinction.

[Foxglove]

Actually I assume no such thing. I said that one trait of femininity is sensitivity. Not that this trait is exclusive to women. For it clearly is not. But within both men and women there will be varying degrees in which people display, or express, what are traditionally regarded to be feminine or masculine traits, irrespective of their gender. Like you (quite rightly) say, women, like men, are a mixed lot. And within that mix both will express traits that are traditionally associated with femininity and masculinity.



OK, Jenny, sorry, I misquoted you. But I don't really think your wording helps matters, that is, where you associate sensitivity with femininity. If we're saying that people are a mix, then it makes no sense to attribute a trait like this to either men or women. To associate it with "femininity" is to associate it with an abstraction, which appears somewhat arbitrary and pointless to me. You're drawing a distinction between "femininity" and "women", OK. But I'm having a hard time seeing the point of attributing a trait to "femininity", if we're agreeing that women don't necessarily possess it.

[jenni_xx]

If in the course of your gender exploration you eventually discover that you are not, in fact, a gay male but you are rather a straight transwoman, then I would face this with your partner as soon as possible.

I have thought long and hard about this. I am now 41 years old. If I live until I am 80, then I will have at least lived half my life as a man if I was to transition now. So by that (rather simple) "equation", if I were to transition, then I'd only ever live half my life as a woman, or in other words, I'd be half the woman that any GG will ever be. I do often wish that I was born female, and my status as a person who is attracted to men has only ever empahsised this (without wanting to sound crude, if I were a woman, then I'd have many more men to chose from for a potential partner). But then, I do have a partner - a husband - who I love dearly and the only reason I have met him, and married him, and am with him, is because I am male and both him and I are gay. I wouldn't change that for the world. He makes me more happy than my crossdressing ever could. And if I was forced to make a choice - forgo my crossdressing or lose my husband, then I know which one I would chose.

And I know that, because I feel that way, I would never pass any psychological examination that was intent on determining whether I was a gay male or rather a straight transwoman. First and foremost I am male. Secondly I am gay. Thirdly I am transgendered. And it is in that order that I am happy with.

[jenni_xx]

OK, Jenny, sorry, I misquoted you. But I don't really think your wording helps matters, that is, where you associate sensitivity with femininity. If we're saying that people are a mix, then it makes no sense to attribute a trait like this to either men or women. To associate it with "femininity" is to associate it with an abstraction, which appears somewhat arbitrary and pointless to me. You're drawing a distinction between "femininity" and "women", OK. But I'm having a hard time seeing the point of attributing a trait to "femininity", if we're agreeing that women don't necessarily possess it.

You're right - my wording didn't help matters, and for that I apologise. I try to make it as clear as I can, but the downfall in me not being clear is a fault that lies with me. I don't blame you for misunderstanding me, not one bit, and even in my last reply I was worried that my justification for what I meant may not come across as clear as I hope it to be.

You're right though, it is hard to draw such a distinction. You know, I know how it plays out in my own mind, but getting those clear distinctions from my mind into words is something that I find difficult to do. All I can say is that I do see a distinction between gender and femininity and masculinity, and I do feel that both sexes are capable of expressing femininity and masculinity, irrespective of whether they are male, female, gay, straight, transgendered, or not. To use an obvious example, a man cries at a film, the man in question will hide his tears because he feels that this "betrays" his masculine persona. Yet he is a man, and he has still cried. I guess what I'm tryiing to say is that everyone has the capability of displaying what are traditionally regarded to be masculine or feminine traits, irrespective of their actual gender. And it's from that position that I, personally, make such a distinction.

But nonetheless, the fault lies with me for your misunderstanding of my post. Simply because I've not explained it as well as I should - or rather am capable of doing. Please don't hold that against me. x

[Foxglove]

All I can say is that I do see a distinction between gender and femininity and masculinity, and I do feel that both sexes are capable of expressing femininity and masculinity, irrespective of whether they are male, female, gay, straight, transgendered, or not. To use an obvious example, a man cries at a film, the man in question will hide his tears because he feels that this "betrays" his masculine persona. Yet he is a man, and he has still cried. I guess what I'm tryiing to say is that everyone has the capability of displaying what are traditionally regarded to be masculine or feminine traits, irrespective of their actual gender. And it's from that position that I, personally, make such a distinction.

But nonetheless, the fault lies with me for your misunderstanding of my post. Simply because I've not explained it as well as I should - or rather am capable of doing. Please don't hold that against me. x

Alright, I think I understand what you're saying (and I don't hold anything against you). If I understand you correctly, there are certain things traditionally assigned to masculinity or femininity as the case may be--but the fact is that a person of either sex can display these traits.

My take on this question is this: many traits might be traditionally regarded as masculine, e.g., but this traditional view is wrong. Say that "being a doctor" is regarded as a masculine trait. Will we now say that a woman doctor is displaying a masculine trait? I wouldn't say so myself. I'd say that the traditional view of doctoring being something masculine was just plain wrong. Women can be doctors. Does that make them masculine in some way? Well, maybe we should ask them how they feel about it, but I don't see them as masculine. I'd say doctoring is neither masculine nor feminine.

And if crying is seen as something feminine, I'd at least partly disagree with that. I think (but I wouldn't state this with absolute certainty) that women cry more often and more copiously than men do. But I also think that men cry more often than is generally believed, and I also think that there's considerably less stigma attached to it than is commonly believed. I don't think most men come down hard on a man when they see him crying.

In other words, people may have traditionally assigned certain traits to one sex or the other. But rather than saying that people are a mix of masculinity and femininity because they fequently display both sets of traits, I would say it was wrong to associate these traits with one sex or the other to begin with.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Lainie]

If your business is lingerie, then discuss underwear at work. Otherwise absolutely not. Even those in the lingerie business would be well-advised to keep personal choices personal.

As for selfishness, it certainly is, in my case. My dressing varies from amusing to irrelevant to annoying for other people. We encourage & support other CDs on this forum, which is good, but it's not like supporting public radio.

[jenni_xx]

Say that "being a doctor" is regarded as a masculine trait. Will we now say that a woman doctor is displaying a masculine trait? I wouldn't say so myself. I'd say that the traditional view of doctoring being something masculine was just plain wrong. Women can be doctors. Does that make them masculine in some way? Well, maybe we should ask them how they feel about it, but I don't see them as masculine. I'd say doctoring is neither masculine nor feminine.

And if crying is seen as something feminine, I'd at least partly disagree with that. I think (but I wouldn't state this with absolute certainty) that women cry more often and more copiously than men do. But I also think that men cry more often than is generally believed, and I also think that there's considerably less stigma attached to it than is commonly believed. I don't think most men come down hard on a man when they see him crying.

In other words, people may have traditionally assigned certain traits to one sex or the other. But rather than saying that people are a mix of masculinity and femininity because they fequently display both sets of traits, I would say it was wrong to associate these traits with one sex or the other to begin with.

Best wishes, Annabelle

I wouldn't regard a profession as a trait of masculinity or femininity. I would rather regard it as a conformity. If I encounter a female mechanic, or a male beautician, I would perhaps think that they are doing a job that is traditionally "assigned" to a gender that they themselves aren't, but still I wouldn't regard it as a trait. To me (only my opinion), a trait would be not so much how we define ourselves through what we do, but how we react emotionally. In other words, I see "masculine" and "feminine" as emotional "entities". But how we choose to express our own emotions will be how others regard us to be.

A month of so ago, I made an appointment at a company that teaches people to become nail technicians. I want to undertake their course, and when I walked through the door, they said that I was the first man they had had in their building for quite some time. I spoke with the course leader, and met other students, and was given a run-through of what they do. While sat in the room with the students, all girls, I watched them doing their studies. We got chatting, and before I even said anything personal about myself, it was obvious that they all automatically regarded me as being gay. Now, it's hard for me to actually put my finger on why they felt I was gay (because I am), but even before speaking I felt as though they had made a judgement. If they had, then there judgement was correct. If they came to that conclusion simply because I am gay, then that is a different thing altogether. But not a single person there came to the conclusion that I was interested in undertaking the course because I am transgendered.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is - based on what we do, how we present ourselves, how we interact, others will always form an opinion and come to conclusions. If I present myself as a woman, then it is more likely than not that people will assume I am gay. Yet if I introduce myself as a gay man, not many will automatically come to the conclusion that I am transgendered. Yet a gay man can display as equally as many "feminine" traits as a straight crossdresser will. And that fascinates me. It fascinates me how people react to us based only on how we present ourselves. And a primary way in which we present ourselves lies in how we dress.

Does that make sense? I've read back what I wrote, and while I know what I mean, I'm not sure whether my actual point is coming across! I do try though!! :)

[KellyJameson]

One thing to consider related to clothing and other products is that much of it is used by heterosexuals to attract the opposite sex for sexual relations.

In addition to this there are aspects to a persons body such as long hair or absence of body hair that are powerful subconscious triggers of sexual attraction.

When a man presents in public as a female, particularly if he is intentionally dressing in a provocative manner or talking about the underwear he is wearing to strangers, people are going to immediately think it is about sex and often as a sexual perversion.

There is crosdressing and than there is CROSSDRESSING.

Everything we do socially is a form of communication about who we are and what we want.

Part of the problem comes from the "communication someone hears" not being the one you wanted to communicate.

The last think you want is to attract a very large "heterosexual" male who is insecure about his sexuality and these men do not wear signs around their neck telling you they are filled with self hate for their own same sex sexual attraction or poorly developed sense of masculine identity.

You want to be careful of offering something for sale that you do not actually own.