View Full Version : dysphoria about the dysphoria?
elizabethamy
02-06-2013, 03:32 PM
Hi,
In recent weeks have become more of a lurker and less of a poster. My condition floats most of the time, unsure of gender, baffled, taking it day to day. I worry constantly. And I've come up with this idea of "meta-dysphoria." Since it's so hard to know what's inside someone else's head, e.g. what their dysphoria is like, what they truly think, I'd offer this: I spend at least as much time and energy worrying about the fact that I am full of gender anxiety as I do having the gender anxiety itself.
Or is it all one and the same thing?
Every time I feel that I have found certainty in one life or the other, it recedes and I am left with dysphoria, meta-dysphoria, or some combination of the two. I've tried to find articles and blogs and such on this but so far no luck.
does this resonate with what anyone here feels and/or has lived in the past, or has read? (yes, I have a wife, kids, a therapist, and a psychiatrist -- but I'm asking the people who might have lived it.) thanks.
elizabethamy
...And I've come up with this idea of "meta-dysphoria." Since it's so hard to know what's inside someone else's head, e.g. what their dysphoria is like, what they truly think, I'd offer this: I spend at least as much time and energy worrying about the fact that I am full of gender anxiety as I do having the gender anxiety itself.
Or is it all one and the same thing?
Hilarious!
But real ...
Your timing is perfect. Kaitlyn and I just had an off-line discussion about people who get lost in dysphoria - and I think that's exactly what you are describing. I was entertained by your term because, as a technologist, the usage of metadata is fundamental ... yet I had never thought of the problem you are describing in this way.
I think what it is, is the emotional distress, and more importantly, the emotional blockage that arises when first confronting dysphoria-related psychological issues and identity. People conceptualize this in different ways. The word I have used over the last couple of years is "drama."
I do not think it is dysphoria in itself. Instead I think it is a byproduct of the process of discovery or self-realization.
Think of it this way: If you are massively anxious about not making a flight on time, you don't confuse that anxiety - the emotional state - with the things that actually risk your schedule. Those are the realities, the things that actually affect your ability to make it, like the time, traffic, check-in need, the line at security, parking, etc.
With dysphoria, the realities are the things like repression and suppression, dissociation, relational problems, and body image issues. All of which can result in a variety of emotional states, either static or changing. At best, the emotional content is but a single aspect in the assessment of impairment or intensity. But even there there has to be a direct link between the issue and the emotional result. What you are describing is often – very often – not a result of the dysphoria itself, but anxiety over what might or might not happen in the future!
It might sound like I'm dismissing or downplaying the role of emotion. I'm not. Emotional issues can be incapacitating and it's easy to extend that into the DSM criteria of clinical impairment. A common psychological symptom of dysphoria is the presence of mood disorders. These are often confused with "simple" emotional issues and anxiety. They are not the same at all, of course.
Most competent therapists will want to deal with co-morbid conditions like mood disorders as a separate issue before getting to gender. That's partly because they may not be related to gender at all in a given case. Plus, they are often resolvable on their own even when they are.
When I started ADs and then HRT, the drama mostly dropped away. Pretty fast, in fact. It also brought the serious dysphoria issues into sharp focus as a result.
Chances are, you will remain embroiled in the drama until you take concrete steps to start addressing the real problem. That's just the way this works… every time.
StephanieC
02-06-2013, 07:08 PM
When I started ADs and then HRT, the drama mostly dropped away. Pretty fast, in fact. It also brought the serious dysphoria issues into sharp focus as a result.
Lea, I confess that I usually don't understand half the things you say. But I think I got this one and resounded with me.
For me, things changed with HRT: the rhythm became smoother. I seemed to have a better feeling where I was going and that that was where I should be going. But there were other aspects, something like a claustrophobia, where I felt trapped. Trapped in a mask, a life. But I was fortunate in a great support system and I learned better to take one day at a time.
-stephani
Marleena
02-06-2013, 07:31 PM
Lea brought up an important point here. The therapists will need to deal with any existing mental health issues (depression. anxiety disorders, etc.) before giving out a letter to start HRT. I was told they want to make sure your judgement is not impaired by these factors before deciding on transitioning if it"s required. It makes perfect sense.
*EDIT* To answer your question
The dysphoria was relentless and consuming for me. It's like you're going crazy but you're not really. It didn't give me a break..
KellyJameson
02-06-2013, 08:00 PM
I think of it like questioning whether the question actually exists.
There is a way out of this I believe.
Imagine you are a crime scene investigator and you have been called to a scene but without actual evidence that a crime has been committed.
What you see before you could be carnage or possibly just a very bad accident but no crime.
Blood, hair,finger prints, weapons of various shapes and sizes but no body and no witness to a crime.
It now becomes a process of sifting through the evidence and constant testing.
Your life will be the scene and your brain that which needs to be searched and tested for the truth to what happened and what is happening.
The very fact that you have anxiety about not being a transsexual is paradoxically evidence that you possibly are.
How many people would worry that they may be suffering from GID if they were not suffering from GID?
Sifting through the evidence is going into these wants and needs of the mind to the point you can pull back the curtain like Toto and Dorothy did to the Wizard to see the real truth.
What I focused on was eliminating any "wants"
Do I WANT to be beautiful so people like or love me? This is not being TS in my opinion.
Do I WANT the body of a woman because I'm a repressed homosexual to scared or shame filled to accept his sexuality so run into gender dysphoria so I do not have to confront my own homophobic fears and disgust? This is not being TS in my opinion.
Do I WANT the body of a woman because I carry the hate others have for men in my own body so seek escape from my own self hate by changing my body? This is not being TS in my opinion.
The evidence will be in your WANTS. Once you have succesfully CONFRONTED these wants than underneath will be the NEED.
If someone wants to be a woman to escape being a man instead of escaping that which they never were, than in my opinion they are not TS
For me transsexuality should show failure to be a man because you are not.
I have never felt succesful as a man. Never never never all the way into infinity. I was fairly good at pretending but it always always was a role and not me.
I'm not trying to escape being a man and if I could contort myself into being one I would much prefer that over having to see a gynecologist and place my feet in stirrups, leaving my dignity at the door.
The NEED is where the truth of transsexuality lives.
Keep hounding after yourself about the "why of your wants" and you will discover the truth.
You must reach that point where you absolutely refuse to allow your own mind to lie to itself and on the otherside of this curtain is the truth.
This is in my opinion an extremely difficult, arduous but necessary journey.
Stay on the forum and meet others who are also making the journey because you cannot figure it out on your own. You need others who can help you see if you are lying to yourself.
Wants live in the conscious and can be consciously understood but need is the very essence of the person. Need is our life force and I think of it as my "gender temperament" that is innate.
It is OK if you are lying yourself because that is just your mind trying to avoid pain and there is no shame in this.
Accept that your mind may be trying to trick you and keep searching for the TRUTH.
Cheyenne Skye
02-06-2013, 09:23 PM
I also have similar feelings as the original poster. I believe this to be at the heart of self acceptance. If you can't accept yourself, the anxiety only gets worse. Once you find self acceptance, then your anxiety should go away.
Kaitlyn Michele
02-07-2013, 09:22 AM
just be careful to not get lost in getting lost in the dypshoria...
Lea, I confess that I usually don't understand half the things you say.
No worries, Stephanie. Sometimes I think I don't understand half the things I say, either. I wish there were more Mark Twain than Virginia Woolf in my writing … although I'm being generous to myself in both cases!
elizabethamy
02-07-2013, 04:24 PM
I really appreciate the perspectives you've offered. It's true that I might be confusing the anxiety about the flight with the flight itself, as in Lea's analogy. But I'm gathering that what I've seen as two different things -- dysphoria and "metadysphoria" are to some of you just the same thing -- that is, to keep with the flight analogy, both will disappear once I make the flight. (interesting analogy, hmm). Of course, if I decided that I didn't really need to fly there anyway, that should also eliminate the dysphoria, right? Some of what Kelly says reminds me of another thread about Need vs. Want. I think I'm well beyond "want" at this point. No lusting for body parts, or images of myself as a beautiful old lady, or desire to end my marriage...too old to "Want" anything of that sort...but Need is harder to define...
off to meditate...
elizabethamy
[QUOTE=elizabethamy;3106086]Of course, if I decided that I didn't really need to fly there anyway, that should also eliminate the dysphoria, right? /QUOTE]
Depends on what you mean by need. If you mean you were mistaken then yes, the dysphoria will go away ... perhaps because it was never really gender dysphoria to begin with. If, on the other hand, you mean that you aren't driven to transition then no, I would not expect it to disappear. Coming to terms with your situation should settle or reduce the emotional upheaval, but it cannot resolve the conflicts underlying dysphoria because not transitioning can only mitigate the underlying issue to a point.
I don't expect my emotional upheaval to return to the levels of a year ago, transition or not. Yet I'm quite disturbed by the dissonance I feel between body and mind - more so than when I was deeply depressed or feeling like I was losing it, in fact. The same basic problem remains. I had to work through a lot of issues before I could deal with it directly, however. Following depression, reducing anxiety was key. Shortening my perspective not only brought that down, it allowed me to take a concrete step ... to DO something. And that changed everything.
Kathryn Martin
02-07-2013, 05:12 PM
For me transsexuality should show failure to be a man because you are not. ... I have never felt succesful as a man. Never never never all the way into infinity. I was fairly good at pretending but it always always was a role and not me.
Kelly, this is a very dangerous thought and sentence. Especially for those that transition later.
Several years ago I wrote an essay about "how do you know your decision to transition was correct?" In it I compared young transitioners and older ones. I tried to understand what makes this decision successful. I wrote this:
Young transitioners are adaptable. They have the chance to make their decision correct by becoming who they are in time, working on themselves. If they do not, they usually do not survive. It is in this that convictions of women of history seem to lie that living firmly in the gender binary is the only way to live, and that those that don't meet the "normality" rules of general society in this regard cannot be true transsexuals. I believe young transitioners successes have their foundation in who they become.
Late comers have developed, we are often less adaptable by the time we reach our decision. We have made the best of our present life and cannot continue without being true to ourselves. When successful, we build our new life on who we have become. I believe our success has it's foundation in who we are.
I think that if those tangents intersect the chances of being successful are great. If however, an aspect or element is not present or out of place, such as a belief that life will magically improve, your life in general suddenly will be better, you hope to live your life easier, simpler or more manageable the awakening can be rude. Being transgendered or transsexual and transitioning does not mean you suddenly check your personality at the door and be unburdened. It does not mean that your social life is easier to navigate, it never means that the challenges we face as human beings are lighter or simpler. Money is not easier to earn and expectations of you cannot be less than before. That young transitioners will have to work on themselves as any young human being must is obvious, that late comers need to be confident and able to rely on who they have become as human beings is, I believe, equally obvious. If this fails, if the decision was taken not to be who you are, not to be true to yourself but rather because of the belief that everything will get better, then the decision may be right because it may provide some form of relief often transitory, but it is I believe not correct. Who you are as a person does not change because you are transsexual or transgender. It is your personality you bring to the table. And if the decision you base your transition on is simply the hope of bringing you a better life without having to work on yourself and for it, then sometimes failure will follow and the decision was not correct.
Transsexuality is never a failure at being a man. It is not defined by what you are not. It is defined by what you are. Many transsexuals are highly successful despite their disability. Transsexuality does not define your success as a human being, as a man or a woman. It is a disability; and it can be overcome and healed. No completed transition will allow you to escape the flaws in your character, the flaws in your emotional life or make the world and your life magically better. People equate transsexuality with GID. First of all it is a misnomer. Whatever the shrinks were thinking by making it the centerpiece if the diagnosis under DSM 5 is beyond me. Transsexuals do not have GID (and I am aware this will create a storm of dissent) but rather suffer from depression (and I mean depression because dysphoria is just another name for depression and sounds more like ooooh!!!! , because of their disability, not because they are gender confused).
In your post you say:
Do I WANT to be beautiful so people like or love me? This is not being TS in my opinion. I want to be beautiful so I am attractive to others, it has nothing to do with my medical history.
Do I WANT the body of a woman because I'm a repressed homosexual to scared or shame filled to accept his sexuality so run into gender dysphoria so I do not have to confront my own homophobic fears and disgust? This is not being TS in my opinion. When I was young, I loved boys, we kissed and touched as you would when you are in your teens and for all intents and purposes I was gay. But that is not my experience, it was rather an experience that any girl might have. And even though homophobia was rampant even in my family I did not identify as gay at all, it never even crossed my mind.
Do I WANT the body of a woman because I carry the hate others have for men in my own body so seek escape from my own self hate by changing my body? This is not being TS in my opinion.I find this to be incredibly dangerous image. It cuts so dangerously close to another one of those concepts that equates transsexuality with mental illness which it is not. It is not even a mental condition. It is a circumstantial, situational depression.
You have to be incredibly careful because when you write these things people will compare them to their own thoughts and experiences. Someone who suffers from a sex conflict as all transsexuals do might mistake their hate of their disability with hate of a "healthy" body as it is seen by so many in the general public. So something like this can easily be misconstrued and lead someone down a wrong path.
People equate transsexuality with GID. First of all it is a misnomer. Whatever the shrinks were thinking by making it the centerpiece if the diagnosis under DSM 5 is beyond me. Transsexuals do not have GID (and I am aware this will create a storm of dissent) but rather suffer from depression (and I mean depression because dysphoria is just another name for depression and sounds more like ooooh!!!! , because of their disability, not because they are gender confused).
I agree that it is a misnomer. An unfortunate one. Although gender versus sex or sex versus gender can be regarded at as simply the same thing from alternative points of view, you are right in that calling it gender dysphoria that it puts the focus on the wrong thing. The term dysphoria is also somewhat unfortunate, although the clinical definition is actually pretty clear. The biggest probilem, in my mind, is that it conflates psychological issues with emotions. That leads to threads like the one at hand. The history of the phrase, however, is what it is, and like positive and negative current flow in electrical theory, although wrong in a technical sense, people learned to work with it.
So I won't quibble (further) with the terms.
All this to preface a short version of what I'm trying to say: just because you're upset over gender or sex doesn't make you gender dysphoric or transsexual. Neither does being depressed.
In fact, the only thing that makes one a transsexual is a disjunction between gender identity and natal sex. Period. No one should confuse the presence or lack of dysphoria with transsexuality itself.
So then what of all this other stuff? The depression, repression, upset, depression, confusion, cross-dressing, whatever! Simple. These are all symptoms and clues that have to be worked through by a clinician in order to determine their source. They can – but don't necessarily – lead to a determination of transsexuality. In a clinical setting with these kind of issues, determination equates to diagnosis. That's part of the problem here. We're talking about the DSM criteria as if they define transsexuality. They don't. In fact, it is perfectly possible to be a healthy, clear-thinking, and emotionally stable person that needs to transition! No dysphoria involved!
The emotional upset we are talking about is a second or third order derivative of more fundamental issues associated with suppression and repression… when they are related to transsexuality. Take dissociation, for example. If one experiences dissociation seriously and often enough, it can induce serious side effects, like depression… in turn irritability and emotional upset! Treat the depression and the emotional upset state induced by that depression will hopefully be resolved. But in a transsexual, the dissociation will remain, now experienced for what it is rather than through its secondary and tertiary symptoms, The level of impairment, which is a clinical assessment, ultimately determined by the intensity of the transsexuality itself.
But, you might ask, isn't all that emotional upset "impairment"? In a technical sense, yes. In the context of a diagnosis, no. And that goes right back to the point of my last paragraph. The emotional upset is a transitory symptom, borne of misunderstanding. I believe transition need to be far more primal. And, of course, one can be upset – very upset, emotional, disturbed, etc. – about gender and sex without actually being transsexual or needing to transition.
Kaitlyn Michele
02-07-2013, 07:19 PM
In my own personal experience i have been clinically depressed, and that was a different experience than what i have called (And let others call) gender dypshoria. they were different feelings..they manifested differently and felt different to me...
my first depression was helped by cognitive therapy and medicine...i knew i had gender issues...but i didn't id as female or even close... i felt cured and motivated after my depression treatment..btw..i did tell that psychiatrist about my gender situation but she said i was a crossdresser and it was ok...
the feelings of gender dypshoria manifested in late night crying jags after a dressing night, a growing distance wife as i could no longer function like i should as a husband...and of course, obsessive non stop thinking... i tried therapy again but in my heart i knew this was different... my gender dysphoria got worse and worse until i decided to transition.. so its hard for me to think of my experience with depression the same way as my experience with gender dypshoria...its not just a word in my experience..there are important differences.....thats not to say that my depression was not brought on by issues relating to being transsexual..
I have been thinking back and trying to remember how i felt regarding dysphoria and steps i took to beat it.....once i started HRT my world was totally rocked...i knew instantly that i did the right thing...and i can honestly say it never occured to me that i was going to stop at any point...the plan to transition percolated and i simply executed my plan...it was very step by step...
HOWEVER there was lots of wailing , lots of sobbing and feeling sorry for myself... from the time i started HRT and the next 18 months or so, i was feeling worse than i ever felt..!!!!!!!!!!!
i was torn to shreds on the inside...the divorce went through, my kids were freaking out, i faced leaving my high paying high profile job on top of huge alimony payments.....on and on....i have surgery phobias, the hrt didn't work for 3 months...on and on...
the depression was crippling...i took off from work...the obsessive thinking checked down to a lower gear, but it was still there...i drank and smoked pot all the time...i felt enourmous conflict and guilt over how my transiiton would impact others, ..it wore me down...but this is important...not once did it ever occur to me to not transition once i decided to do it... i was clinically depressed BUT the depression was brought on by my feelings around my transition...not by transition itself...
the shame, guilt, fear and enormity of my situation was ruining me....
see what i'm saying...i started HRT with a plan to transition, and although i was joyous that i started HRT, it set off the worst year of my life...
luckily i had a great therapist and I worked really hard.....i was able to separate out these different things and make a good decision..as lea says...its primal...i call it survival instinct...
i was lucky to have support and i could have easily misinterpreted difficult feelings at my most vulnerable moment, causing my own demise...so many times people come here looking to control things...it just doesnt work that way..
you have to be real careful to not get lost in that dysphoria...
I believe, that simply put, Dysphoria can not be eliminated by any other means but convergence of body to conform with the mind. What you are describing is anxiety about being caught in the middle unable to resolve the direction of transition. Yin and yang, to do it or not to do it... dysphoria about dysphoria.
In fact though it really is so much simpler but innately complicated. Simpler, because if unclouded view emerges of your innate state, you will quickly decipher that you in fact are a woman, complicated, because even though you shall attain clarity as of whom you are, your path and transition within can only be seen one day at the time, hence an angst!!!
stefan37
02-08-2013, 05:54 AM
Fascinating thread and way to deep for me. Some of these thoughts resonate , however the depression is something I have no real experience with. After I had a difficult and painful ankle surgery and recuperation I entered a period in my life that I now know was depression and it took about 3 years to come out of. I highly doubt it had anything to do with gender. I have always thought from a young age I should have been the opposite gender and although I always thought I might be transexual, I would not admit that even to myself let alone others. I have suffered from anxiety in various levels of intensity over the years. Crossdressing would help to relieve some of it coupled with alcohol and pot. If I found little or no relief from those activities, I would pour my energy into my work, male centric hobbies or online video games for hours. As the years rolled on I found had these urges to feminise myself and dress more female, but still try to keep it low key and keep peace in the marriage. I guess it finally reached a breaking point and my wife suggested i get therapy. Took 2 days to get the courage to make the appointment and the rest is kinda history. I started electrolysis and immediately felt a calming I had not experienced in a long time. My anxiety however was still through the roof and I poured my energy into my business. I needed relief and I refused to drink alcohol or use prescribed substances, so I would have a clear mind while I made these life changing decisions. 6 months into therapy I got to see the endo and was prescribed hrt. In 2 days my anxiety went from level 10+ to zero and the thing I was amazed I had no anxiety with no impairment. That to me was huge and verification that my path was the correct one. 3 months later my blood work showed that chemically I was no longer male, and while sad on some level I was excited. Now 7 months into hrt I can feel the difference in my mind and body. My anxiety has abated, but my thoughts on being misgendered have not. As I move forward what confirms to me the validity of my decision is the forks in the road. Whenever I take the road towards transition it feels right.
This journey feels good to me and i am happy and exhilarated at the same time, BUT I am also experiencing a huge amount of pain and sadness this has had with my immediate family of wife and 2 adult children.
Why did I feel I had to transition? Can I live as I am presently as I do feel comfortable and my GD has been mitigated to tolerable levels. Maybe I can. But again what is known is known and my marital relationship dynamic has changed and it will never go back to what it was. Although I have mitigated it to some extent at what point will it become unbearable and I will again have to move forward. I have made my decision and I will do what I need to do, but I do have financial considerations that will affect my business and more importantly my wife, who by the way and this complicates things is also my business partner. What label people want to characterize me with I have no control over and for now I tell people I am either transgendered or if they are close enough to me I will tell then I am transsexual. To tell them I am a woman with the body of a male while probably more accurate confuses most people, so I try to put it in simpler terms they can understand.
I plan to make the most of what I can accomplish with what time I have left on this rock.
I have accomplished most of the goals in my life that I set and now i am accomplishing a goal I thought I would never have the courage or resolve to even attempt. I have enjoyed living as a male and i know even as I transition or have transitioned most of the male centric activities I do I will continue to do.
As Inna says constantly and spiritually the truth will set you free and it is that truth I am seeking to find my inner peace that has eluded me my entire existence.
noeleena
02-08-2013, 06:31 AM
Hi,
You all may think im a fruitcake nuts or weird or maybe insane, i dont mind,
I have to say i never ever had dysphoria funny thing is i never knew what the word ment or could spell it, & really the word means nothing to me.
So what is it that i have , from age 10 i knew what i was , (( yea insane, )) whats new,
I was pretty content being by myself yes i played with girls & boys maybe not as much as a normal kid would yet was okay .
The ? that seems to come up is many dont know who they are , are not happy with who you are or your body. im not talking about detail like little flaw's you have, or i never liked how i looked face wise. myself here of cause.
I was quite happy with my body over all i was strong my body was closer to a female in many ways i know why now of cause, for my age still pretty strong did not loose my body strengh ,
I was pretty level headed, even tempeared, yet knew i was a female if you like hideing for a time, i was not, yet it seemed like itwas, & it did not bother me strange that , maybe not , what i dont understand is im not that much different than i have been for most of my life, really im saying i have grown up become a woman while much of my life was like a girl / boy.
just did not see the difference . i knew back then i would grow up to be a woman just getting there was different & with out this mind blasting that many have, gee im so glad i missed all that i may have been an insane nutcase, maybe i knew about that in my own youngsters way at age 10 i had to advoid that at all costs , i did & that has been just so neat,
...noeleena...
melissaK
02-08-2013, 06:57 PM
Sometimes threads leave me speechless. This is one.
Isn't the OP by Elizabethamy?
Elizabeth sweetie, we've been on these forum boards together for a long time. We've poured our heartfelt struggles with accepting ourself out onto these boards. Sweetie, the disphoria (or depression, - I appreciate the distinctions others made) keep growing for you and it sounds like you're trying to split the disphoria into a part you can deny as being TS/TG driven so you can rationalize an attempt to control it. Sweetie, you know I stubbornly hung on against my tsunami of swelling disphoria, but I'm not buying the two flavors of disphoria argument.
Sweetie, I'm concerned you are just putting off the task and consequences of accepting yourself, putting off the task of finding a path through what will result from that self acceptance.
I really think Kaitlyn's story is worth absorbing. It's so distilled but she's kept it so authentic and laden with her emotions that we who are approaching a decision to start some transition, or like me who are in the early part of it, can relate to it. And Elizabethamy, I think the message to take from Kaitlyn is this: its not going to be easy, but a new life worth living emerges. And I came out, declared my desire and plan to change (self-acceptance), and my life has been perfectly horrible and wonderful. I see what she's talking about.
I don't want to suggest you transition on anyone's timeline but your own. And Ive read your posts long enough to know you won't. But I want you to be less afraid of what now looks like an impossible path.
Hugs Sweetie. Big hugs.
josee
02-08-2013, 09:13 PM
Elizabethamy, I think I can totally relate with what you said in your OP. Sometimes it feels like one step forward and two steps back. A week ago I was feeling really good about myself, like I have not felt in years.
Then this week uncertainty and fear crept back in like a bandit and stole my self-confidence and left me a murmuring idiot, unsure if I was doing the right thing or not. This thread has been incredibly timely for me. I had been feeling those things and was so embarrassed I wanted to go somewhere no one knows me and ask.
Thank you for bringing this topic to light.
I also have been helped incredibly by this thread in the responses. Cheyenne pointed out what resonated so much with me that the key to this dysphoric dysphoria is rooted in self-acceptance. The art of accepting who we are and the journey laid out before us.
I think I have this down and then it comes back to bite me. What a bitch!
Pink Person
02-10-2013, 12:46 PM
If curing gender dysphoria is all about making the mind and body congruent then some people
might benefit from a brain transplant as much as (or more than) a body remodeling.
If a brain transplant is too expensive or otherwise prohibitive for you then try changing the way you think about things. You might start by trying to be less narrow minded about the natures of gender variation and biological polymorphism. If managing your thoughts is still unmanageable after a reasonable struggle then consider other means of coping, but don't rush away from this difficult task without due effort.
If you have a severe brain/body disorder that isn't open to rational self-analysis and self-repair then get help from someone who is qualified to treat this condition. Otherwise, dig in and dig out by yourself, but use a strong horse shovel.
Rianna Humble
02-10-2013, 03:39 PM
What you are suggesting would be less of a brain transplant than a whole body transplant. As far as I know, this is not yet possible.
Unfortunately, your second paragraph places you right at the heart of those people who deny the reality of our condition. It is not a case of changing the way that we think about things. It is about our fundamental identity. If your suggestion had been anywhere near being close to the truth, then the so-called "reparative therapy" would work, because then you could brainwash somebody out of who they really are.
If it were just a case of changing the way that we think, then those of us who had to endure beatings and electro-shock treatment would have adopted the new way of thinking to avoid the torture. Why didn't they? Because there is not one iota of merit in your suggestion.
EDIT: for clarity, I should point out that I am not one of those who experienced beatings or electro shock, but we do have members here who were not as lucky as me
Kaitlyn Michele
02-10-2013, 05:12 PM
She's right pink...
what you are suggesting works great for everybody except transsexuals.....
i don't think you mean to say we are not rational...in fact, most of us are deeply, coldly rational, and i can guarantee that if any other person went through my life, they would have transitioned too......
I love it! However, this conversation leads into a can of Pandora or Warms box, as it illustrates, at least for me, the fundamental mechanism of survival within the confine of denial.
The truth is, there are only 2 genders, sometimes these two genders do mix or live side by side, but most of the time one wants to be the dominant one, the inherent, the intrinsic gender by birth.
As I see it, fluidity is a great scheme to ease the pain of transition or status quo, by remaining gender fluid without finally succumbing to the truth at hand, often buried in subconscious by coping mechanism of basic of survival skill.
What I am speaking of, is based on direct observation of lives of quite few individuals here and in my closest circles of friends, as time and freedom of expression slowly dismantles the rigid fortress of denying mind.
elizabethamy
02-11-2013, 08:20 AM
As the person who opened this Pandora's box of a thread, let me just thank everyone for commenting. I've learned a lot, though it's hard to form a conclusion when so many things have been raised. Is there anxiety about dysphoria that is a separate thing, or is it so closely attached that when the core problem is gone so will go the anxiety? Does one just need to think differently? Or does one need a body transplant? Inna has raised another issue that resonates with me: what is "between genders," or "genderfluid?" Is it essentially a transitional process in which the dominant gender is finally getting beyond all the mind games and obstacles and is relentlessly asserting itself? Or are there some of us who are truly between genders as a natural condition? (That's a subject that deserves a dozen threads of its own!)
The younger generation thinks differently than mine -- my children are surrounded by friends who are various forms of genderfluid, genderqueer, etc. Inna, are you saying that eventually these people will realize that they are not fluid but are flowing toward their ultimate gender? Other cultures and history suggest that people have coped with and are coping with being transgender without transitioning -- as my psychiatrist said, "they've been doing this for thousands of years, but of course at great cost."
For me, there are two dilemmas: what am I is the big one, of course, and for every moment of bell-clear revelation that I am transsexual there are equivalent moments that I am not, that I'm just a man with tendencies. Sometimes I and many of us make it seem like it's all the fault of our SO's in that we are limited in our explorations and opportunities to discover our true selves, but it's, as Kaitlyn has said elsewhere, not just that but a lifelong investment in children, career, community -- everything but gender exploration and/or transition. Thus, every action toward gender expression and/or transition has dramatic and negative consequences in every other area of life.
And this is where Pink has it wrong, even if he means it sincerely. If one could turn this all off with new ways of thinking, through therapy, exercise, reading, etc, this entire board would not exist and crosdressers.com would just be an amusing and spirited exchange of fashion and beauty tips. Peace,
elizabethamy
Kaitlyn Michele
02-11-2013, 10:10 AM
i hope you can step out of this mind set.
like investing in maleness, investing in understanding all of this has limited if any payback in terms of improved quality of life for you..
accept that non transsexuals, even cd's and gender fluid people!, have no way to comprehend what it feels like...(and btw we don't know what it feels like to be gender fluid!!!!! and how that has its own deep challenges)..so don't allow yourself to feel bad about that...its just the way it is...pink is right that you have to dig YOURSELF out...i don't think he realizes how the way he got there might sound to a transsexual...
accept that you will never truly know..that life is in the living of it.. and based on what you write, ONLY female expression will help you understand what your best quality of life will be... that is not transition...it is just something that will help you clear your mind and learn about yourself.....those dramatic and negative consequences are real...they will impact your quality of life...its smart and rational to consider them.. those consequences are the other side of don't transition unless you have to..
but if you don't have to, you are better off simply accepting that you don't have to, and deal with the depression/dysphoria as they are.
if you want to muddle through, the best way to mitigate your suffering is the SAME thing as what you would do if you were planning transition...expression.....do stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!! and see what happens....
melissaK
02-11-2013, 11:26 AM
I am really excited with the direction of the last few comments. I think this "pandora's thread" has distilled the terribly complex notions of gender down pretty well, especially as it relates to TSism in general.
What I wanted to add are a couple thoughts.
1) I am 1/2 way through Kate Bornstein's "My Gender Workbook." And while it has its shortcomings, I am truly getting something out of it. At least at this 1/2 way point it has helped me see the complexity of defining ourselves, and enabling me to begin to better sort out myself. I have few highly recommended books on my reading list about being TS or TG, but this has become one.
2) I want to ratify some of the recent posts, particularly Kaitlyns' last one.
I see that for me, the act of suppressing a whole lot of feminine traits and desires throughout my life was done to fit in and obtain a host of approvals, from my parents to my employers, all of which gave me tangible things through a lucrative job and money, and intangible things, parental approval, power, admiration by others. But along the way I lost track of myself.
My decision to "come out" as a TS was more than just saying I am TS, it was a declaration of "I am going to change myself into what I want to be." It was less important for me to have said I am coming out as TS, and it was more important that I said "I am going to try self-acceptance and making it through life as the person I am," rather than to play 20 more years of games of pretending to be a certain way just to fit into particular groups for those tangible and intangible benefits. Indeed my inner self was screaming at me taht it couldn't go on doing that another day. let alone another 20 years.
And more specific to this thread, where Elizabthamy says:
what am I is the big one, of course, and for every moment of bell-clear revelation that I am transsexual there are equivalent moments that I am not, that I'm just a man with tendencies. I want to say this. After coming out, I find I have a clarity of mind to try and figure out who I am. The act of "coming out" was needed to get my closet door taken off its hinges. And I know there's more written about the significance of coming out than I have read, but for me, it was an act of "self acceptance," and act of "self confidence," a declaration that even though I am not sure what it is about me I am accepting, I am going to accept myself.
And Elizabethamy, that act of "coming out," for me, silenced the screaming anxiety I have had in my brain for years. It silenced all of it. And that is exactly what Kaitlyn said:
the best way to mitigate your suffering is the SAME thing as what you would do if you were planning transition...expression.....do stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!! and see what happens....
So I "came out" willing to accept myself as TS, someone who arguably has the longest hardest journey ahead; to cross the whole freaking gender divide. And at present I am not certain a trip across the whole divide will lead to "me." But equally, I am not certain that it is not my destination. Will I evolve a la Pink Person, or a la Inna? Or a la Kaitlyn? Or a la Kathryn? Or a la any other poster on this thread.
But unless I "came out," unless I was willing to "do stuff and see what happens" I would never have known that I could silence that screaming anxiety, and I would have continued to suffer.
OK, I gotta go to work. :-)
...investing in understanding all of this has limited if any payback in terms of improved quality of life for you..
... you have to dig YOURSELF out...
accept that you will never truly know..that life is in the living of it..
I can't help but think that two very different things are being talked about here.
The first is gender. One can come to a realization sufficient to transition … or not. I understand (believe me, do I understand) just how difficult getting clarity on this realization can be. But though this struggle seems to always invoke the question by turning our lives upside down, it is not fundamentally the same as the second thing that is being discussed here. And that is…
… The source and meaning of identity. Maybe the meaning of life itself. That is a bottomless hole. This is the part of the struggle that actually seems to consume the most emotional and psychological energy. The cisgendered are spared this because they simply grow naturally into experiencing life as themselves. Transsexuals are not because they experience this condition (most of them, anyway) as a problem. Humans just have to solve problems and answer questions. And what an intense problem! Talk about being invested in something! It just grabs you and never lets you go.
And so we try to solve the unsolvable instead of experiencing what we are, as Kaitlyn has stated so nicely.
Focus on the question, without overshooting the mark. The question itself is simple, though nailing down the answer is tough work. It is, in a nutshell, man or woman?
Kathryn Martin
02-11-2013, 12:39 PM
Is there anxiety about dysphoria that is a separate thing, or is it so closely attached that when the core problem is gone so will go the anxiety? Does one just need to think differently? Or does one need a body transplant? Inna has raised another issue that resonates with me: what is "between genders," or "genderfluid?" Is it essentially a transitional process in which the dominant gender is finally getting beyond all the mind games and obstacles and is relentlessly asserting itself? Or are there some of us who are truly between genders as a natural condition? (That's a subject that deserves a dozen threads of its own!)
Anxiety over dysphoria is not a separate thing. It is the aspect of dysphoria that arises when you ask yourself why it is you that is stricken with the condition. It is inextricably intertwined with the depression over finding no suitable expression of self. There is no body transplant. But there is body transformation and as mentioned above it will lay the foundation for the real transition. Between genders, is a concept that arises entirely out of "expression" that is gender variance not out of transsexualism. That is why pink person is wrong in this. He believes that we are all the same.
The younger generation thinks differently than mine -- my children are surrounded by friends who are various forms of genderfluid, genderqueer, etc. Inna, are you saying that eventually these people will realize that they are not fluid but are flowing toward their ultimate gender? Other cultures and history suggest that people have coped with and are coping with being transgender without transitioning -- as my psychiatrist said, "they've been doing this for thousands of years, but of course at great cost."
There are many forms of gender expression, that is gender variance. In most cultures this is a not so uncommon, both at present and historically. But transsexualism is rare. Expression for transsexuals is collateral only to the condition but not at it's core. The earliest reported sex re-assignment surgery occurred in Rome approximately 50 AD. Because it is so rare there are few historical references and it was always masked by gender expression and variance.
For me, there are two dilemmas: what am I is the big one, of course, and for every moment of bell-clear revelation that I am transsexual there are equivalent moments that I am not, that I'm just a man with tendencies. Sometimes I and many of us make it seem like it's all the fault of our SO's in that we are limited in our explorations and opportunities to discover our true selves, but it's, as Kaitlyn has said elsewhere, not just that but a lifelong investment in children, career, community -- everything but gender exploration and/or transition. Thus, every action toward gender expression and/or transition has dramatic and negative consequences in every other area of life.
If you have clarity that you are transsexual, that is, that your physical sex does not match your brain sex the you must transition. There is no "or". Social consequences are connected to all that we do including not transitioning. Believe me I know, I have been where you are. But if your issue is the exploration of gender then you most likely are not transsexual. I am not sure why people never seem to talk about how their expression manifests itself. What is it that you need to express who you are? So often, people come here and say I want to be a woman, I like the feel of women's clothes, I have always liked girl things etc. and on it goes. It's a fantasy, believe me, and no answer to anything. And so often it is a constructed narrative to justify a particular desire, but not a need. Hardly anyone ever says what I need to express myself is a dissolution of the boundary between the socially imposed gender norms, and this is what I like to do and then describe it. What motivates your anxiety, dysphoria, discomfort and fear over your present life. Because if you can in detail answer that question truthfully, the answer what you seek will be known with all clarity. And once you know, then you can think about solutions for it. I disagree with the you have to try and see where it leads you. You do that and you will end up in a pink fog and possibly destroy your life. You have to know and then all of the things you just talked about will be no longer obstacles. Because what you communicate to your world will be authentic. And you either transition or just be a more flamboyant you.
And this is where Pink has it wrong, even if he means it sincerely. If one could turn this all off with new ways of thinking, through therapy, exercise, reading, etc, this entire board would not exist and crosdressers.com would just be an amusing and spirited exchange of fashion and beauty tips. Peace,
elizabethamy
I agree with that but it is the view of someone who does not experience what you experience.
I think an important point would be to see gender how it really is!
And that is, gender is different from internal perspective and yet different from external perspective.
Internally, we find the comfort in the intrinsic gender coded at birth. Our comfort zone, how we feel towards connections with others, our gender role.
Externally, gender is a qualifier of how others relate to us!
As the society becomes more relaxed about rigidity of gender markers so shall the stigma of being gender fluid taking internal gender markings to a lesser degree of dysphoria. So YES, the clout of perception will truly change how people relate and handle their gender definition.
However, being a woman born into male body will still have the same internal struggle but coping with the pressures of transition will ease substantially, providing, that the individual lives in an understanding and sympathetic society.
When it comes to denial and gender dysphoria, I solely believe that to be gender fluid as an absolute would be to disown and totally abandon humanity and every bit of texture which makes up the human experience. After all, when kids play Cowboys and Indians, House, or any other childhood game, none of them want to be an ameba. Gender of Female or opposing Male is encoded in a psyche and mechanism of life's reproductive and preservation instincts.
There are no OTHER genders, but each and every organism encompasses both, at times fluidly, changing to suit its environment, and rigidly, as we humans tend to express and embrace it!
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