Why do GG’s have a problem with US?

[Frédérique]

M: “I thought all women liked being called girls.”
F: “About as much as you like being called a boy by a member of my sex.”
M: “I don’t mind it.” (dialogue from The Cassandra Project by McDevitt & Resnick)

Sometimes I think of this place as a boys’ clubhouse, with an imaginary “no girls allowed” sign on the door. It isn’t exclusionist, of course, so GG’s wander into this No Man’s Land to complain about what we do from time to time. You know, “my boyfriend insists on crossdressing – please help me understand what’s going on,” or “I didn’t want this,” or “what’s wrong with you people, anyway, and can we get help for the afflicted?” Some GG’s even go so far as crashing the party, or pouring water on the glowing fire, or, in extreme cases, debunking cherished ideals right out in the open. What’s a boy/girl to do? I’d like to feel GOOD about my crossdressing, please...

There are many exceptions to what I have just described, i.e. GG’s who are genuinely supportive in a compassionate sense, but others send me around the bend. I get nervous when the real girls show up, and even more nervous when a friendly give-and-take erupts along the lines I have just described in the previous paragraph. Nearby, in other threads, the poor MtF is exasperated about being initially accepted, then not-so-accepted, by his confused, vacillating SO. Apparently a male dressing like a female is some sort of pestilence, an unwelcome blight that forms on the healthy leaves of gender expectations. The GG realizes she can’t accept MtF crossdressing in her midst, so she will be henceforth unable to understand it, no matter what the “afflicted” male might say...

I mean, I wouldn’t dream of going over to the FtM section and throwing my male-by-birth masculine “weight” around, couched in thinly-veiled sympathetic verbiage. No, I assume that they know what they’re doing, and, in any event, I don’t want to spoil their party. However, it seems to be much easier for everyone to understand why a girl (by birth) would wish to be a boy (or at least look like one) than it is to understand why a boy would wish to be a girl. GG’s seem to have a BIG problem with this relatively innocent exercise of boys wearing their clothes for pleasure, and I wonder why that is? Surely roads and paths beckon us to explore, bodies of water encourage us to take a dip now and then, and birds inspire us to fly, even though we are essentially Earthbound, so why is it so hard to understand why some of us boys would want to try on that dress over yonder?

Not every male (boy) feels this way, but some of us do, and it has nothing to do with upsetting the gender mores that GG’s have carefully maintained over the centuries. Well, how else can you explain this reluctance to accept something (MtF crossdressing) that is natural and inevitable? Perhaps gender correct-ness is the province of the female, and she is doing all she can to insure the survival of civilization. This means boys must be boys, and nothing less will be tolerated. Males are usually off trying to extinguish each other, or discredit each other, using their stupid ideas to keep the waters of civilization perpetually muddy. Meanwhile, the females watch from the shore (when they aren’t engaged in their own masculine power struggles), detached from all the male nonsense going on around them. This equates to the status quo, and procreation carries on apace, somehow, propelled by the instinct to survive. To be sure, females (girls) have a thankless task...

But, enter the MtF crossdresser, and the carefully choreographed gender ballet is disrupted at a stroke. She needs a HE, but he would rather be a she himself. Where does this leave the GG? Isn’t this just one more disgrace, one more insult, and one more ignominious slap in the face she is forced to endure? I imagine that when a man dresses as a woman, no matter how innocuous it may be, a GG’s whole sense of propriety comes into question, at least in her own mind. “What am I to do?” she might say, followed by, “What does he expect me to do?” Suddenly, we’re in a situation where roles are reversed, HE is subjugated, subject to approval, and she has hold of the familial and social reigns. Worse still, he’s wearing clothes she wouldn’t dream of wearing, bringing back a bygone era (not too long ago) when M and F clothing was strikingly dissimilar! In short, the world is upside down, and the GG, with her 21st century voice, WILL be speaking up...

I understand, but please let the boys wear their girl clothes. I could try to explain why the latter takes place, wasting my time in the process, but why bother? Unless you’re male by birth, how could you understand a need to slip out of your male gender, by way of appearance, and approximate something you either admire, or feel a kinship with, or perhaps secretly loath? Someone who has read this far may come to the conclusion that I dislike women to a certain degree. I don’t. My admiration of females, both in appearance and assimilation of better human characteristics, is assured and not subject to discussion. That being said, I don’t understand why THEY don’t understand MtF crossdressing – I try to keep out of sight as I float through life in my femme finery, partly because I don’t want to upset any females in the vicinity. In other words, I’m all-too aware of this “problem” they have with us...

I guess men/males/boys do a lot of stupid things, as judged by females, but being male is neither a bed of roses nor a bed of nails. “It just made sense at the time” is a male mantra of sorts, and it may apply to our need to crossdress, although crossdressing can be a lifelong passion. Why? Well, women are always there, either looking the way they do, or comporting themselves the way they do, or making the best of a bad situation the way they do. They laugh, they cry, and they express their unabashed bewilderment at us, the boys dressed as girls. I get the feeling that GG’s on this site are saying something like, “Really? You actually want to do THAT? Give ME a break!” It (MtF) just doesn’t jibe with their “take” on reality, a reality that is conformist and non-negotiable. They take their role so seriously that our little experiments in gender-bending are unappreciated, suspect, or worse. Can I come to YOUR party, ladies? Yes? How about dressed like THIS? No? Why not? I mean no harm...

Well, I gotta get back to the boys-dressed-as-girls club and resume my “quiet girl” persona. GG’s, think of it merely as men gone fishing, albeit in girl’s clothes, without troubling the fish. We need to get away now and then, and, if you're like me, it ALWAYS seems like a good idea at the time...

I’m appreciative of GG’s who genuinely like (or accept) what we do, but most of the time I feel like we are under attack from those we are trying to emulate. What do YOU think the problem is?
:idontknow:

[Miranda09]

Hmmmm....I don't know!!! Maybe it boils down to societal stereotypes?.....estrogen vs testosterone??.........maybe just confusion between..OMG, you want to be a girl? Does that make me a lesbian???? I think it really boils down to how society, historically, tends to dictate what male and females should be....what their "roles" are in a sexual relationship????? I'm still trying to figure it out, tho I doubt I ever will, nor will I lose much sleep over it. I would really like to hear a GG's perspective on this tho as well!!

[Davena Doll]

Frederique your killin me....... I passed out 3 times reading your post. I dont think they give a s"!+. Thats just me.

[noeleena]

Hi,

The Hammer will come down on myself no matter how i answer because ill not be accepted as male or female ,

Can i look at perspectives from your point of view as a real male ....no,

So can i see this from a females perspective , i should, though i dought it will be accepted, you said no man's land , i'v been there for most of 55 years, my first 5 are a blank ,= a nothing ness .no memory. wiped out,

The real world where i am where i live & interact with my friends yes most are women , why because i relate with them im on the same page as they are, & im accepted as nothing else other than a normal woman who they know is some what different, this became very clear last week with 230 men & women a whole week to gether,

So how i answer ?s can only be as a woman because i have nothing that i can answer with from a so called male's side of any issues, i thought i could i know for sure i cannot,

In an answer to the ? ill say i find it very hard to understand men who dress & try to emulate us who are female / woman i just dont get it....... i cant be any more honist than i am

Our men with in our Renaissance group some 100 & more do wear dress's & skirts & as an aside do look i know i know === pretty good lovely men , , the thing is not a one of them are trying to be like emulate or pass as or be any thing like a female or woman they are & most here will know the meaning far better than i & with the understanding better than i can ever know , they are mens men.. thats where i fail i can only attempt to try & understand i really dont, at least im trying too.

...noeleena...

[Tracii G]

Original post is way to long to read sorry Freddy.
Not sure why you do that but carry on.

[luscious]

I know of women who See's a TS,CD or a drag queen as competition. they do not want the competition. the TS,CD or a drag queen goes to more effort to impress and look there best.

[Wildaboutheels]

The plain and simple answer is that very few GGs think or [more importantly] SEE like men. It would conflict with their prime directive in life. Mars/Venus is full of examples of this.

I'd be wiling to bet that the more visually oriented any GG is, the more likley that she will be "more accepting" of CDers of any flavor or variety.

[suzy1]

My first thought as I read this was, what’s Freddy talking about?
[That was after thinking this thread is to long to get through before I have to go out in a couple of hours, sorry Freddy]

Are you criticising the women that frequent this forum? [I speed read the thread as I am not getting any younger]
I have recently had some discussions with one or two GG’s on this forum and it’s been a pleasure to talk to them. They have been so nice and supportive.

Or are you criticising women that have partners that crossdress and don’t like it. Because it must me obvious why the majority of women don’t like there man to crossdress.

You ask the question “What do YOU think the problem is?
Some questions just don’t need an answer as they are to obvious for words In my opinion.

All the best Freddy and allow for Suzy’s sense of humour.,:)


SUZY

[Breeze]

From a GG perspective I have no problem with my husband dressing and I believe that people should be want they want to be as long as it isn't illegal of course. I have read your post several times and don't know if you really want a GG intruding with a response but what the heck I am doing it anyway (longest one I have done so far I might add)
From a GG perspective:
I can only speak from a female perspective and what my experience is as growing up. As a society GG's are conditioned to believe that we will meet our perfect man and settle down , get married have kids and go onto to grow old together etc.... We are bombarded from young with fairy tales of our handsome prince coming along to scoop us up and carry us off into the sunset and live happily after. These princes should be handsome and strong very manly with a chizzled jaw and very manly.
As teenagers we are exposed to a wider social experience and where media continues to show us that we need to get a boyfriend and be slim, beautiful, wear certain clothes and then there is school which is another ball game girls talking about their dream guy,romance and generally doing it! Then as adults this continues and this is seen every where on TV, adverts, film, books, etc if we aren't married by a certain age then we are generally seen as having a problem and being a odd ball or confirmed spinster.
As far a CD goes this is not part of the norm for us GG's we are taught by society and culture that a man should be a man and woman to be a woman. And for those that are out there that seeking their Mr right I think that CDers are challenging that. IMHO this conditioning is deeply rooted and ingrained into us from an early age. Also we are conditioned to believe that if a man dresses as a woman he is not manly and obviously not interested in woman which I know is a very naive and ignorant perspective but as individuals we are not to blame it is society and being conditioned from a young age that causes this to occur.
Since finding out about my husbands CDing I have become a lot more educated about Cding in general,my initial response which was ignorant was to question his sexuality.
CDing is not a threat to one his sexuality and two my femininity in fact it has made me more feminine once again.
As we keep being told we live in a man's world where the majority of men hold positions of power. For many years now woman have been battling for equal rights in all walks of life, equal pay jobs, etc I might add now not speaking from my perspective but as a GG in general why would a man want to be a woman? As we are still seen on the whole as the weaker sex. Why would this ingrained image we have of a man man want to emulate a weaker woman?
My husband says ' he likes woman that much he wants to emulate them and society on the whole doesn't seem to understand or know the difference between gender and sexuality.'
I love my husband and all that he is and wish that more woman were open to the huge spectrum which is humanity rather that what we as women have been bought up to believe.

[jenni_xx]

Have you ever watched a person give a presentation and they are so incredibly nervous, and you end up feeling nervous yourself? Have you ever witnessed a person act so confident that their confidence rubs off on you?

I strongly believe that how others react to us will be determined by how we act ourselves. And I think that in some instances, our own feelings of embarrassment, guilt, nervousness when we dress in front of others comes across to others that we are doing something wrong. I've read numerous posts from cd's who talk about their growing confidence in presenting themselves en femme in public and how they are received in a positive light by others - be it shop employees/owners, people in bars, people walking by in the street. Some put this down to the idea that crossdressing is becoming more acceptable socially. There is I believe a certain degree of truth in that, but I do feel that the reason why they may feel that crossdressing is becoming more acceptable is because they are accepting it and confidently embracing it and displaying it themselves.

I have many a time walked into a shop, dressed in male clothes and nervously browsed the feminine clothing on display. During such times, very rarely will a shop assistant/owner come up to me. Instead they keep their distance, perhaps hoping that I will quickly leave (or quickly buy something and leave), because I am actually making them feel uncomfortable. And in turn I sense that I am making them uncomfortable, which will make me feel even more uncomfortable, and thus I will retreat and leave. On many more occasions however, even while dressed in male clothes, it has felt (to me) like the most natural thing in the world for me to be doing (because it is natural to me), and during such times, a shop assistant/owner will come up to me and ask if I need any help. The last occasion, I was semi-dressed - bra with breast forms, female top, underneath my male coat, and I walked into a small independent shop. The owner came over, said hello, asked me if I would like a cup of tea and then asked me if I am on a mission or just browsing. I said a bit of both, as I flicked through a rack full of clothes slap bang in the centre of the shop. She asked if I had anything specific in mind, and my reply was perhaps a nice top, a lovely scarf, a coat, or all three. She then began to pull out numerous items for me to look at and one - a wool jacket with a fur collar immediately caught my eye. Without batting an eyelid, I asked if I could try it on. "Of course you can" was her reply, and she directed me towards the closest full length mirror. I took off my coat, revealing my feminine top and knowing that my breast forms would become obvious. And she did not flinch. I tried on the coat, and she went and got a few more items for me to try. One was a black wool shawl with a cowl neck, which I slipped on over my top and her response was incredibly complimentary. It did look great on me. A purchase was made. We talked for sometime, she asked me what kind of clothes I like, and for my telephone number, then said that she will look out for such outfits and call me. The overall sense of the occasion for both of us was that it was the most natural thing in the world.

She accepted me, felt at ease around me, and while I was already confident, I could just feel my confidence increasing even more so. I eventually left, and as I walked outside, I sensed that my walk was much more confident, shoulders back, back completely straight, a stature that would obviously result in my breasts becoming more prominent underneath my coat, which now was not even buttoned up anyway. I walked passed another girl, who "clocked" me, and her reaction? She smiled at me and I smiled back. I was giving off an air of confidence that other people were immediately sensing, and as such other people, even if just fleetingly, were reacting accordingly. "That man has breasts", or "That man has a female top on" no doubt running through their minds, yet not one giggle, not one strange expression, not one reaction that make me feel as though I was doing something out of the ordinary. I like to think that the reason for that is because they got the sense, from me, that I was doing nothing out of the ordinary for me. And because I was so at ease, they had no reason not to be either.

So I genuinely do believe that the majority of people, or more specifically in terms of this thread, GG's, will ultimately not have a problem with our crossdressing if we don't act as though we have a problem with it. If we act as though it's the most natural thing in the world, then others will pick up on that and have no reason not to think the same way. It doesn't matter if you pass or not, or even present yourself with the intention of passing. What matters is how we ourselves act and indeed react. If I meekly ask if I can come to the party dressed "that way", then the response may not be so positive. If I say loud and proud however "Your party, I will be wearing this and that", then the response may well be completely different altogether.

[VickiTheGamer]

In my opinion, I think because when you dress up your no longer a MAN nor will you ever be a man again to a GG. Oh, your still a male, but you are now less than a MAN.

A MAN is a protector. His ways, his behavior, his demeanor gives a women an unrealized sense of protection.

Think of it this way. First, lets say when you are NOT in CD mode, your as masculine as any other guy.
So, your out on the town with your buds. It's you, a friend of yours (Male non-cd, non-feminine), and your Wife, (or GF, or some women you know) and the women already knows and is accepting to your CD ways. So, some possible danger is a head of you. A dangerous person. The women, in this case, is nervous and very possibly going to see your Male friend as the protector before seeing you as such.

When a man dresses up, shares that interest, he has left the MAN behind and has joined womanhood. He is a Male, but he is no longer a MAN. He is now, somewhere in-between.

[Celeste]

I feel like its quite a jump to assume GG,s may be able to understand what we are feeling when dressed unless they have been exposed to this lifestyle.In a way,we are asking that they drop all preconceived notions of gender' like"forget everything you've ever learned for a moment and check this out".It really seems like we are asking a GG to take a leap of faith and hold on a moment while we try to help them to understand why.Bottom line is,you need someone who cares enough about you to begin with to even consider doing that.

[Fuchsia]

Hmm. Long post indeed. As you said Frédérique, there are GG's who come on this site who are supportive even if they don't have a Cd partner. In the case of women who can't accept their partner dressing (and my own SO is one of them) I'm sure there are many reasons. I have had clashes with GG friends in the past on a number of issues and what it often boils down to is an invasion of territory. Most GG's have experienced some wounding by men in their lives and many feel that men trying to look like or be women are trying to take away their identity and make it a male thing. They don't want to share when they feel that men have already taken a lot from them. Many of them already feel that it is male expectations that make women need to look like anorexic models or wear revealing clothes in order to be acceptable. It might be facile to state but most of the time when any of us lash out it comes from our own hurt.

It still doesn't make it any easier for those of us who want to embrace our feminine element, to be soft and caring and supportive, emotional and empathising but maybe putting it all in perspective helps a little bit, or not xxx

[Rogina B]

Thursday night,I was at a LGBTQ welcoming committee meeting at my UU church.I represent the "T" and I think[at least openly]the "B"s as well.It was just 4 GGs and myself. We are comfortable talking things over. "You enjoy doing girl things,and we enjoy doing boy things.And we all here do both girl and boy things" was said to me by one of the women."You look really nice tonight..love that outfit" said another. "And just three hours ago,I was standing on my head in a corner of the boat grinding a weld down" And so it goes,without getting into a deep explanation of "why?" that so many people seem to be looking for.

[max]

Good discussion Frédérique.

I think what it comes down to is that women are allowed to blur gender roles but men largely aren't. This seems to be most apparent in their choice of partners.

[deebra]

A lot of them are jealous and selfish and don't want to share their power, that being beautiful sexy curvy bodies and the beautiful form fitting clothing and makeup, hair, etc. that makes them so desirable to men and the envy of less blessed women. It looks like some would appreciate a CD wanting to come over to their side and be like them and relate to them, the softer less agressive world that men have to live in. Some of the above threads are right on, women are raised to believe ALL men should be rough, tough and manley and that had better not change, if it does you will see a side of me you won't like, in other words you were born a man, I married one and there's no changing the contract now, so get those panties off and put the boxers back on.

[Jenniferathome]

I’m appreciative of GG’s who genuinely like (or accept) what we do, but most of the time I feel like we are under attack from those we are trying to emulate. What do YOU think the problem is?:idontknow:[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

i actually read it all. Can't say that I am better for it. Mostly, I completely disagree with the whole tenant but more specifically with the quoted item above. I have never felt under attack by women. Perhaps you are confusing a natural question, "Why" with some deep seeded issue. The women here are not "jealous" that we are demeaning their womanhood, they are confused! And why wouldn't they be?

[GroovyChristy]

Freddy, as always your post is thoughtful and articulate. Long, yes, but I would have it no other way because of the quality of its composition. Your elegant writing always makes me consider things that I haven't before, and it is a pleasure. It had not really occurred to me that GGs might feel threatened by CDing. It makes sense though, and I think the reason some GGs feel threatened is the same reason that so many men feel threatened.

"Cross dressing" (and I have really come to dislike the term) challenges the old notions of binary gender roles. Men are strong, protective, emotionless, while women are soft and caring, blah blah blah. While many exist who do fit these stereotypes, either by cultural conditioning or honest expression, the stereotypes, as you well know, are not all-inclusive. For example, I wish to present myself as soft, empathetic and gentle, not because I am trying to fit a stereotype, but because that is what I feel on the inside. I am not trying to divest myself of male expectations - I have been like this since before I knew about such things. Does this mean I want to be a stereotypical woman (I do, after all, wish for a female body)? Not in the slightest - the stereotypes are meaningless to me. I can only be myself. I should also mention that some things I do are also more associated with men than women - my chosen career path, preference for dark beers, my nerdiness on certain subjects, whatever. There are plenty of women and plenty of men who like all the things I like, and so the stereotypes fall away into oblivion when you look at them closely.

Anyway, if a man sees one of us gender-benders in public, he may lash out by calling names, using violence, etc., trying desperately (if unconsciously) to reinforce the gender roles. He hasn't considered that men do not have to be burly and cold-hearted like himself, and he feels threatened. There is nothing as frightful to a "tough guy" as someone who is confident in their softness, which of course he sees as weakness. Similarly, a woman may feel threatened because we are intruding into what they believe is their territory. People hold their stereotypes so dearly because they have tried so hard to fit them. Rather like one of us MtF dressers or transsexuals trying to squeeze ourselves into a dress that's way too small.

[Taylor186]

"Cross dressing" (and I have really come to dislike the term) challenges the old notions of binary gender roles. Men are strong, protective, emotionless, while women are soft and caring, blah blah blah. ... For example, I wish to present myself as soft, empathetic and gentle, not because I am trying to fit a stereotype, but because that is what I feel on the inside.

First, crossdressing does not challenge the gender binary, it reinforces it. And second, nothing you claim you want (soft, caring, etc.) requires you to crossdress. If you really wanted to challenge the gender binary you would act as you say you want to while being dressed a man.

I'm happy the GGs are here and believe their contributions make this a much better forum in every possible way. It crossdressers here are uncomfortable with GG questions they should probably spend more time looking inward.

[Christinedreamer]

I am intrigued by the comments regarding at first the physical length of the OPs expression. Personally, I would much rather have a chance to delve into the pysche of the person as they express themselves as the expected 'Cliff Notes' post version simply cannot follow the train of thought and depth of the questioning and examination given the subject by the OP.

[Beverley Sims]

Frédérique,
Most of us here do not have the attention span of the Golden Gate bridge in SF, or Forth road bridge in Scotland.
More like the span of a clothes line for most I think.
Get to the point quickly and it would be better.
Unfortunately for us girls like men and not too many like half and half.
I will catch you on the next thought provoking round.

[kellycan27]

Maybe it's just a case of personal preference for the most part? IMO most GG's probably couldn't care less if you cross dress as long as its not in their backyard. I have read many of these "acceptance" type threads and the theme of many of them seem to be that if a woman doesn't accept cross dressing ... SHE is somehow remiss. Take the case of a CD who's SO cross dresses.. The general consensus seems to be that she needs to be "educated", she' some kind of phobe , she's not being fair.
You have the right to express yourself, but you don't afford her the same right. You can't change how you are or how you feel, but she damn well better because if not.... she's not being fair.

[GG7irish]

Although a very long post....maybe you should ask us why we want to be on this forum. Yes it is different and sometimes confusing but acceptance should be across the board.
I appreciate the differences and similarities that we share.
I as a GG find it helpful and insightful. It helps me better understand my SO and love him all the more. So in order for us GGs to accept we have to feel a part of your world.
Wish you the best.

[Wildaboutheels]

I sure find it "fascinating" that at a Forum where most participants involved want nothing more than to be able to "express themselves" freely, so many would respond to an OP chiefly to complain about the length of the OP.

What is the point in that?????????????????????

When I look at Forum Qs I see tons of questions that might only be 8 or 10 lines just begging for answers.

It must be awful not to be able to spend 2 or 3 minutes reading something but willing to take the time to complain about it?

[Lorileah]

Just a quick warning, do not make this an "Us" against "them" thread.

[jenni_xx]

For what it's worth (and I've seen a few people comment on the length of your posts), I value such thought-provoking posts, and whenever someone puts effort in to write such posts I will always read them in their entirety. The reason why is because no matter how long (and I am guilty of long posts myself), I value the input of others, and when they do go to a lot of effort in writing long posts, it would simply be rude not to read.

That said, one thing does make me wonder. When such effort has gone into writing such thought-provoking posts, rarely do we see the originator of such posts engage as willingly in the replies that others provide to said post and subsequent discussion that their original post has resulted in. Why is that? Is it because the original poster isn't able to get on here as often as others (which would be a completely acceptable response (and one I hope Freddy responds with)). Or is it because what matters to them is just putting their own thoughts "out there", and the response to such thoughts don't really matter that much to them to result in spending as much time replying as they did writing their post in the first case.

I like your posts Freddy, but as yet, despite commenting on a few of them, I've never had a reply from you in regards to what I have written.

[jenni_xx]

Is that what it's all about - finding a winner?

[suzy1]

Is that what it's all about - finding a winner?

I think what she ment was it was a very good post that’s all Jenni!

And I happen to agree with Casandra and sent a PM to Breeze to say so.

[Ann Louise]

In your dreams Vicki. Some of us girls here you would definitely not want to offend in a dark alley, heels on or not . May I suggest that you extend the information-gathering stage of your personal journey a bit more before you make statements you clearly have no basis to be making?

[CassandraSmith]

Is that what it's all about - finding a winner?

Well no, it's about dialog and I appreciate that there are different views on this. But this certainly is the cream of the posts!

Now if it would just go straight to my hips ;-)

This is regarding my deleted post that said "We have a winner!" to Breeze's wonderful explanation of GG indoctrination.

[Foxglove]

However, it seems to be much easier for everyone to understand why a girl (by birth) would wish to be a boy (or at least look like one) than it is to understand why a boy would wish to be a girl.

Maybe it seems so, but it may not actually be so. Talk to the FTM's and see if people find it easy to understand why a girl would want to be a boy.


GG’s seem to have a BIG problem with this relatively innocent exercise of boys wearing their clothes for pleasure, and I wonder why that is?

You've partly answered your own question:


She needs a HE, but he would rather be a she himself. Where does this leave the GG?

It leaves her with a husband who's physically repulsive to her. Remember recently when someone posted photos of gorgeous women with beards and hairy chests? I don't think it's so hard to understand why a woman might not be thrilled about the idea of her husband trying to look feminine.



I understand, but please let the boys wear their girl clothes. I could try to explain why the latter takes place, wasting my time in the process, but why bother?

Because then you spread understanding. Cispeople gain a bit of insight into transpeople. That's what we want, isn't it?

A few cispeople have asked me why I'm doing why I'm doing, and I've explained the basics of TGism to them--while informing them at the same time that as things stand now, ultimately we can't explain TGism. I've never lost any respect by explaining to cispeople what I can about TGism.

We need to understand, Freddy, that cispeople aren't naturally equipped to understand us. Our experience is outside theirs. Why would a boy want to be or look like a girl? Why would a girl want to be or look like a boy? They don't understand such feelings because they don't have them themselves. So why not help them out a bit?

By the way, Freddy, if you want to CD, it is OK.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Mikkigurll]

Get back on subject. If you have issues with the length of the post PM the poster. Also quit sniping at other members here. Take it to PM. Otherwise, this thread will be toast

Thank You, Lorileah. At last, some sense!

[Keri L]

For me, I think the jury is still out on this one. I am going out with my wife en femme for the first time this Wednesday, along with another girl and her SO. So, for two of us CDers, at least, the GGs in our lives are giving it their best shot to be accepting and understanding.

I still have to post about my first time out to a non-TG bar last weekend, maybe after that, I can supplement these comments with how our night on Wednesday went. I also probably need to do it on a proper keyboard, as these tablets are horrible to type on for any length of time!

Cate

[michelle64]

Why do some GG's have a problem with us?.....because some of us care more about ourself then the GG we are with...its not always about us and sadly some CD's just cannot figure that out...must be low information voter types, my theory at least....

[darla_g]

Just as a constructive comment, the choice of font and especially the size make the posting very hard to read.

As for the topic, it is a valid question although I too disagree with some of the premises made. My response speaking only for myself (but describing things that GGs in my life have told me) is that the primary reason is lack of understanding of CDing in general. I too had encountered the standard questions that only come from very basic misconceptions out there.

I am NOT gay
I don't want to become a woman
I don't need to do this all the time

[AllieSF]

"“Really? You actually want to do THAT? Give ME a break!” It (MtF) just doesn’t jibe with their “take” on reality, a reality that is conformist and non-negotiable. They take their role so seriously that our little experiments in gender-bending are unappreciated, suspect, or worse."

Freddy, with this statement I think that you have also described a majority of non-CDing males when they encounter us in either the media, in a conversation about us, or in a real life encounter. They have a hard time understanding why a male would want to do that. Also, as Kelli said above, people can probably tolerate and even accept someone else crossdressing, but do have a hard time accepting that their own spouse likes to do this. We are still in a minority in life, and most people have difficulties getting their mind around anyone who goes out of the generally accepted norm and life experiences that they are already comfortable with.

[Rachel Morley]

You ask the question: “What do YOU think the problem is?" Some questions just don’t need an answer as they are too obvious for words In my opinion.

After reading the OP's whole post, what Suzy wrote above is exactly what I was thinking. If you want the specifics ... read Breeze's post.

[docrobbysherry]

First off, I proclaim it a tie between the OP and Cassie. As I couldn't finish either post! However, I've very much enjoyed the ones I've read.

I do NOT believe there can be too much written about the interchange of ideas on, or between dressers and GGs. Because most of us r straight and our relationships r complicated enuff without dressing issues! The more that's written, the more readers will find answers and understanding of their particular couple's issues!

[Julie Gaum]

Fantastic --- really enjoyed the OP and the large number of thoughtful answers. If I liken the OP to reading "War and Peace" a few posters will get mad at me but not intended to be unkind. In today's world most people, if they still read a newspaper or an Internet newscast are headline readers; most will only sit still long enough for sound bites (or in computerland is it a short string of bytes?). Our TV networks are governed in their presentations to short attention spans. How does all this relate? Only that many posters were able to provide brief but complete answers, others covered more of Freddy's fears and worries (and maybe paranoia?) while a few were not accustomed to following deep and sometimes straying thinking so they, understandably, gave up. Other than personally appreciating the give and take on the subject matter that Freddy presented, the above thread is a very small example of why we have politicians catering to short-sound-bite masses; government policies swayed by voters who don't bother knowing what's happening in the world today and probably why our educational world ranking has sunk so low.
I did stray too but it was fun.
Julie

[Debglam]

The forum ought to start charging by the word! ;)

The reality for some of us is that we love GG's, are friends with GG's, wish we were born GG's :battingeyelashes:, interact with GG's as both men and women, etc. Basically, my reality involves GG's and I have no desire to hide from them or their honest opinions. If we are talking about CD.com, then there is the private GM section that is a "boy's only club." I think there is a reason that this section and the other private sections see much less traffic than the open ones and that reason is that most of us do like to mix it up with GG's, MTF's, and transitioned/transitioning women. This is my real life and I have no desire to hide.

[Tamara Croft]

It must be awful not to be able to spend 2 or 3 minutes reading something but willing to take the time to complain about it?I did read it all, though not responded, because I have no answer to it. However, this I have an answer to lol, you'd be amazed at what people complain about on this board, even having to scroll further down to section because it's been moved, so complaining about the length of ones post is not that unusual. I think personally, it's not the length of the post, it's the font, it makes it hard to read. For those who are a bit older, wearing glasses etc, they won't read it, it would hurt their eyes. I suffer enough because of colour dyslexia, and then the font is bad on top of that.

It is a good post Freddy, but you might want to think about changing the font to something people will read, not because it looks pretty :)

[busker]

Breeze, men are conditioned as well. you have to big, strong, hit home runs when your the capt of the bb team, etc.. Failure in the manly arts for many children of macho fathers is a punishable offense. But, I think that "men really like women and want to emulate them" is really something that can be said, sounds like it could be true, but I rather doubt that it is the one and true answer. It helps explain the unexplainable. I firmly believe that what we have is some sort of hybrid brain that has female aspects and the desire to dress is a result of incomplete chemical transformation that the male brain goes through. How else to explain a world-wide mostly male activity? Either that or we are a percentage of nut cases around the world.
Without science to provide some better answers, we just have to exist, explain the best we can and let it go at that. It doesn't mean a guy isn't regular in every other way, but society as a whole, can be extremely rigid, even though people within that group can be more flexible.You are certainly an fine example of an accepting person.

[Alice Torn]

Freddy, Great deep thread! Busker i agree with what you wrote. Women are now free to do just about anything they want now, and it is good, but, men are in double binds, and socially hamstrung yet.

[ReineD]

I’m appreciative of GG’s who genuinely like (or accept) what we do, but most of the time I feel like we are under attack from those we are trying to emulate. What do YOU think the problem is?

One answer is, there are many men AND women worldwide who feel it is wrong for anyone to engage in cross-gender behavior (and also for either sex to be same-sex attracted). It may well be, at a primitive level, an attempt to protect the survival of the species. It would be interesting to study this phenomena.

Another answer that applies to some of the people who have joined here, is that the wife feels betrayed for having been lied to. This alone introduces the crossdressing in a negative light, else why would her husband have lied to her? She needs time to catch up to his understanding of it, in addition to rebuilding the trust in their marriage. This does not happen overnight and she is in her full right to not be kicking her heels up in glee when she first joins here.

Another explanation for wives who are adamantly against this is from Michelle64, and I quote:


Why do some GG's have a problem with us?.....because some of us care more about ourself then the GG we are with...its not always about us and sadly some CD's just cannot figure that out...

Also Freddy, I agree with the others. Your font is too small, even when I wear my reading glasses. When I zoom in enough to read your posts comfortably, I have a limited view of all the other posts.


================================================

I'd like to respond to some of the others, who believe that we feel threatened or are jealous:


I know of women who See's a TS,CD or a drag queen as competition. they do not want the competition. the TS,CD or a drag queen goes to more effort to impress and look there best.
Most GG's have experienced some wounding by men in their lives and many feel that men trying to look like or be women are trying to take away their identity and make it a male thing. They don't want to share when they feel that men have already taken a lot from them.
A lot of them are jealous and selfish and don't want to share their power, that being beautiful sexy curvy bodies and the beautiful form fitting clothing and makeup, hair, etc. that makes them so desirable to men and the envy of less blessed women.
Similarly, a woman may feel threatened because we are intruding into what they believe is their territory.

I'm sorry, but you are all terribly mistaken. You would be in your full right to tell me that I cannot know what it feels like to be a crossdresser. Likewise, I am telling you that you have absolutely NIL understanding of why some of the wives and girlfriends object (those who do - many are supportive). And almost every woman that I know doesn't give two hoots if a guy that she doesn't know crossdresses. Or, she may think that he is a novelty and be mildly interested as to why he would want to do this. She may even marvel at his skill, if he is good at it. But at least she will be more accepting or tolerant than your average guy!

At any rate, how can wives and girlfriends feel "threatened" when we know what our bodies can do compared to yours? I think it is the reverse - it is some of the CDers who perhaps would love nothing more than to have GGs jealous of them, as if this somehow might feed into their fantasies of being the beautiful women they wish to be, or perhaps being more "womanly" than any birth GG? :p

You never hear a TS say that GGs are jealous or feel threatened, or are selfish. In fact, TSs have realistic views of how birth women feel, since they feel the same way! I do not see TSs and birth women as competition, they are my sisters. And crossdressers cannot be competition because they are not women.

You must all think that GGs as a whole are hopelessly petty and have not matured past the middle school years. I would expect more from individuals who seek to emulate women and who claim to understand us more than the average male.

[busker]

Frédérique, it could be as simple as plain old homophobia. a guy--who now becomes less of a man by crosss dressing--dressing as a woman might appear to be a lesbian to some women and get the kind of response that CDs get. . The other thing is that when one looks at the "perverts" of the world, they are generally men who make the news. CD being considered in general a perversion--and not an activity for stress relief--is going to take the big hit. We may just be looking too hard for complex answers when a simple one will do. When there are too many ifs, ands, and buts, the answer is not likely going to explain a common activity.

[GroovyChristy]

Reine, I hope you don't think I claim to know that my suggestion is correct. It is just that, a suggestion. I think it is possible that some people feel threatened by gender-variance because it challenges their binary roles which they have become so steeped in. Yes, I know all too well that a woman doesn't need to feel threatened by me, not in the sense that I am more womanly than she is, that really would be an absurd suggestion. She has a real, female body, something I can only dream of. It is I who feels inadequate and outdone.

What I meant was that gender-variance (using this as an all-inclusive term for CDing, TS, etc.) might unnerve some people because it opens the possibility that they don't have to fit into those roles. They're afraid that exploring, deviating from the norm, could actually feel good. Like when some men are ashamed when they cry, not only because of the perceived weakness of shedding tears, but the discovery that it feels good to release your emotion in such a way. I hope that makes sense. I don't claim to be very articulate, and much less so when it is late at night. :)

[max]

“We don’t want to be persecuted or discriminated against or killed or cured or analyzed or explained or tolerated or understood: we want to be desired.”

- Néstor Perlongher

There are male admirers who specifically desire gender variant people; where are the female admirers who specifically desire gender variant people?

[Frédérique]

Frederique your killin me....... I passed out 3 times reading your post.

Smelling salts!!! I always know I'm on the right track when people complain about length. Thanks for reading it...:heehee:


Are you criticising the women that frequent this forum? I have recently had some discussions with one or two GG’s on this forum and it’s been a pleasure to talk to them. They have been so nice and supportive.

If you would slow down a bit, you will find that I alluded to the nice and supportive GG’s you are referring to in the OP, not once but twice. I’ve had much pleasant give-and-take with women, both here and in the real world, so my goal is NOT to criticize anyone. However, the reluctance of certain GG’s to accept MtF crossdressing, leading us to gather together, as we are, largely away from the prying eyes of society, contemplating our “fate,” happens to be the topic of discussion at hand...



The women here are not "jealous" that we are demeaning their womanhood, they are confused! And why wouldn't they be?

My point exactly. One reason why I don’t go forth without a care, wading into the real world at large, is that I have no desire to ADD to that confusion. Women certainly have a lot to deal with, and (get this) I RESPECT that...


Get to the point quickly and it would be better.

One reason why my thread OP’s are so long is the fact that I have to think about all the different types of people who may be reading it. If I just wrote, [I]“What’s the problem with GG’s?” I would be rightfully assailed from all sides, and true discussion would be impossible. From my perspective, the “point,” in this instance, cannot be gotten to easily – I’m referring to the ingrained, generational, instinctive revulsion, confusion, or bewilderment that GG’s feel when MtF crossdressing crops up in their midst. Can this be stated in a few well-chosen words meant to illicit intelligent response? I think not...

Either make the effort to read the thing, or go find something more akin to your tastes, whatever they may be. There’s plenty of room here for meaningful discussion, as opposed to hit-and-run posting, and some people like to try their hand at the former despite the obstacles...


It may well be, at a primitive level, an attempt to protect the survival of the species. It would be interesting to study this phenomena.

Yes, this is what I was trying to get at in the OP, hoping someone would think about the bigger picture. I really believe (duh) that women keep civilization afloat, so they are like sentinels, each imbued with her own sense of propriety – this is a GOOD thing, and I have no wish to challenge it with my gender-bending dressing exercises. It’ll never be an “US vs. THEM” scenario, in my mind, because that is not only counter-productive, but self-destructive as well...

PS – I believe you, Reine...:)


I like your posts Freddy, but as yet, despite commenting on a few of them, I've never had a reply from you in regards to what I have written.

I apologize. I’m WAY behind in my responding...:sad:

[GroovyChristy]

First, crossdressing does not challenge the gender binary, it reinforces it. And second, nothing you claim you want (soft, caring, etc.) requires you to crossdress. If you really wanted to challenge the gender binary you would act as you say you want to while being dressed a man.

I'm happy the GGs are here and believe their contributions make this a much better forum in every possible way. It crossdressers here are uncomfortable with GG questions they should probably spend more time looking inward.

Taylor, I'm afraid I must stand by what I said and respectfully disagree. It challenges the binary because it shows that rigid gender roles do not apply to everyone. I am not trying to not be manly, nor am I necessarily trying to be womanly. I am simply trying to be me, and that usually translates to womanly by society's standards. And about your second point: yes, I know I don't have to wear women's clothing. I do act as I want while dressed in men's clothing. In fact, I like most of my men's clothing. I am not actively trying to challenge the gender binary for its own sake, that is incidental. I don't like women's clothing because it's not meant for males. I'm not trying to be a rebel. At any rate I certainly don't feel like a rebel. I like women's clothing because it appeals to my taste and is suited to expressing my self-image.

[KellyJameson]

Nature has created men to be creators of beauty because it is in their sexuality to possess beauty. Beauty is male sexuality, the two things are synonymous. They may be separated but still they are always intertwined.

Beauty is an abstract and subjective experience always found in the perfection of form.

A face, a word ,the perfect note all in the search for the experience of beauty perfection.

Perhaps the female has become ugly in her masculinity so the male creates feminine beauty in himself to replace what has been lost from the world.

It is not so much that female physical beauty has been lost but the inner vessel has been corrupted and the hardness inside has destroyed the softness outside making it appear false, manipulative and brittle.

It does not surprise me that men run from their wives and into crossdressing.

A man wants beauty inward and outward, not a shrew incased in armament making war on men for crimes they have not commited.

Moral perfection is very beautiful and the illusion that women hold it has been lost.

[ReineD]

Yes, I know all too well that a woman doesn't need to feel threatened by me, not in the sense that I am more womanly than she is, that really would be an absurd suggestion. She has a real, female body, something I can only dream of. It is I who feels inadequate and outdone.

As much as I try to focus only on what is said in a particular thread, it is sometimes difficult for me to erase from my memory the countless posts I've read in this forum and a sentiment that is shared by many, that generally CDers are so much more feminine and dress much better, and even "pass" better than GGs, who are all so darned masculine because they wear men's clothes! lol :p

Every time I read these comments I believe they are absurd, and I think some of that showed through in my comments above. I was triggered by so many people who yet again said that we feel our femininity is threatened, we are jealous, and one person even said we are selfish. Sorry.


Yes, this is what I was trying to get at in the OP, hoping someone would think about the bigger picture. I really believe (duh) that women keep civilization afloat, so they are like sentinels, each imbued with her own sense of propriety – this is a GOOD thing, and I have no wish to challenge it with my gender-bending dressing exercises. It’ll never be an “US vs. THEM” scenario, in my mind, because that is not only counter-productive, but self-destructive as well...

I think the mistake might have been attributing the disapproval to only women. This is an issue among both men and women, in all the major cultures in our civilization, and it is a bias that has existed all through recorded history, except for a few small pockets here and there who did accept the notion of Two-Spirit, Kathoey, Fa'afafine, Hijra, etc.

But if I were to name one gender who disapproves more than the other, it would be men, not women.

Personally, I've always believed that mass cultural and historical disapproval of gender and sexual variance might well be hard-wired in our collective reptilian brains precisely because of our instincts for survival - even though in modern society we're learning to be more tolerant due to inroads made in scientific research. It's the basic belief in the mating rituals that guarantee our survival, rituals that have at their essence, men who are men and women who are women ... and the dances they dance together that are no more different today than they have been for tens of thousands years. Boy meets girl. Boy pursues girl. Girl accepts boy. They mate and form bonds to assure the survival of their young. The birds and the bees and all that. Anything that is perceived as a threat to this causes massive social anxiety.

Today we're learning that gender and sexual variance are OK as long as they aren't in our backyards, but it is still a difficult thing to accept when it touches a spouse, parent, or an offspring. And I think it is only because women have made such inroads in economic equality in the last half century, that so many wives do learn to accept or at least tolerate the cross-gender expression in their husbands. But, when a husband becomes enamored with the expression of femininity at the expense of his wife, this is perceived as a threat to the bonds that a wife feels are necessary for the maintenance of their marriage. It is not the wife's femininity that is threatened, it is the dance that is hard wired in her to dance with her husband, that is now interrupted. The wife knows that her femininity is unchanged in the eyes of other men. Further, if these husbands want to transition, few wives will be able to stay the course. They are hard-wired hetero and this is why they married husbands. They cannot change their sexual orientations.

And although progeny is not an issue, even gay men also experience difficulties when their gay partners all of a sudden want to become women. This puts the gay partner in a bind, because he is not attracted to women.



Perhaps the female has become ugly in her masculinity so the male creates feminine beauty in himself to replace what has been lost from the world.

It is not so much that female physical beauty has been lost but the inner vessel has been corrupted and the hardness inside has destroyed the softness outside making it appear false, manipulative and brittle.

It does not surprise me that men run from their wives and into crossdressing.

We are just as feminine as we've always been in both in our personal relationships with our husbands and in the beds we share with them, despite world economic circumstances that have forced dual-income marriages, thus bridging the gender gap in the academic and working worlds.

We are still beautiful, we are still women, and if men want to crossdress it is not because they are running away from us. It is because they are crossdressers and they are wired differently than men who are not.

... or, they are doing this for fetish, and if so, it started way before they met us.

[Foxglove]

As much as I try to focus only on what is said in a particular thread, it is sometimes difficult for me to erase from my memory the countless posts I've read in this forum and a sentiment that is shared by many, that generally CDers are so much more feminine and dress much better, and even "pass" better than GGs, who are all so darned masculine because they wear men's clothes! lol :p

Every time I read these comments I believe they are absurd, and I think some of that showed through in my comments above. I was triggered by so many people who yet again said that we feel our femininity is threatened, we are jealous, and one person even said we are selfish. Sorry.

Reine, I can well understand why a GG might get a bit exasperated on this point--especially given that it is a point that's repeated fairly often on this forum.

I have a hard time imagining why any GG would feel threatened by me. How could I be a threat to her? What has she got that I could possibly take from her? In what way could I possibly undermine her standing in the community or anywhere else?

Oh, but I'm so much more feminine than her, right? Fact is that in the way I dress, I'm more feminine than probably 98% of the women of my town. But that's only because they don't want to dress this way. And it's because they don't need to dress this way in order to be perceived as feminine. So if anybody's threatened, who is it? I personally don't feel threatened by women, though--just envious as hell. So not being able to deal with my envy, I'll project it onto them. That will make me feel better. They're envious of me, they feel threatened by me. I'll stick in my thumb and pull out a plum and say, "What a fabulous girlie am I!"





Personally, I've always believed that mass cultural and historical disapproval of gender and sexual variance might well be hard-wired in our collective reptilian brains precisely because of our instincts for survival . . . It's the basic belief in the mating rituals that guarantee our survival, rituals that have at their essence, men who are men and women who are women ... and the dances they dance together that are no more different today than they have been for tens of thousands years. Boy meets girl. Boy pursues girl. Girl accepts boy. They mate and form bonds to assure the survival of their young. The birds and the bees and all that. Anything that is perceived as a threat to this causes massive social anxiety.

I'd go along with this, too. I think this is the deep reason--or at least one of them.


They are hard-wired hetero and this is why they married husbands. They cannot change their sexual orientations.


Yep, this is just the basic, obvious reason, which I have a hard time understanding why it might be difficult to understand. You can't change your sexual orientation any more than you can your gender orientation. And why should you want to? Accepting CDing is one thing. Liking it is something else.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[andrea lace]

I have read all the posts and the original thread and Freddie has started something with this one. I am Breeze's husband and have to agree with her on this issue.(we don't always agree on things) Yes it is great to have an accepting and encouraging wife and I do feel for those who don't have accepting SOs. I have read lots of intelligent answers to this thread and many times people have gone round the houses to best answer why some GG's feel threatened by us cross dressers. There are obviously many intelligent people that use this forum and I humbly have to admit that I am not one of them. So then why do some females feel threatened by us cross dressers because society has conditioned them to think that way simple as. If any of you have an SO that is as accepting as mine love her look after her and most of all understand her as much as she is trying to understand you.

[Amanda M]

I'm sorry, Kelly, but you are so wide of the mark. You allege that the creation of beauty, of perfection, is the province entirely of the male. You make the widest possible generalizations, with the final grotesquery the the entire female gender has become corrupt manipulative, hard hearted and false. I have not lived in your shoes, and therfore I cannot understand what is at the root of the process which seems to have made you feel that women are despicable. In a longish life, I have found more care, concern and kindness from genetic women than from men. Take that as you will, it is simply a fact.

Renee, thanks for reminding us of some basic truths.

As for the OP, we are often suspicious of, and made anxious by things we do not understand, and that, I suggest is the root of the attitude of some genetic women to crossdressers.

[ReineD]

Oh, but I'm so much more feminine than her, right? Fact is that in the way I dress, I'm more feminine than probably 98% of the women of my town. But that's only because they don't want to dress this way. And it's because they don't need to dress this way in order to be perceived as feminine.

Right.

There is a difference between "being more feminine" and "dressing in more feminine clothing". John Wayne could wear the frilliest, frou-frou-est, gauziest, most flowery, pink, lacy gown, and he would not be more feminine than Angelina Jolie wearing jeans and a white Tshirt. :p

So if CDers who say they are "more feminine than GGs" really mean that they dress in more feminine clothing, then they should say this rather than confuse the issue.

[kittypw GG]

I have read lots of intelligent answers to this thread and many times people have gone round the houses to best answer why some GG's feel threatened by us cross dressers. There are obviously many intelligent people that use this forum and I humbly have to admit that I am not one of them. So then why do some females feel threatened by us cross dressers because society has conditioned them to think that way simple as. If any of you have an SO that is as accepting as mine love her look after her and most of all understand her as much as she is trying to understand you.

Society has not conditioned me to be threatened by crossdressers. I am NOT threatened by crossdressers. I am not attracted to feminine men period. I have said this many times before....the more a man looks like a women the less I am attracted. If I was attracted to feminity I would be with a women. It's not so complicated really. Reine has it right perhaps. Most of us are hardwired this way.

[Amanda M]

Yes, Kitty, I suspect you are right! I am hardwired to find women visually and sexually attractive, and I cannot imagine being otherwise. That said, I ENJOY looking pretty, feminine, and I enjoy the slight but noticeable change in attitudes and interactions that seem to come along with that.

Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that many of the macho things that I used do (killing animals for "sport", not because I needed to eat them) was just my way of expressing power over them. One day, I shot a hare. I am not a bad marksman, having come second in the British Army in Scotland challenge, but I was off mark. That hare screamed. When I walked up to it, I found I had just fractured its thigh.

I thought "Why? Just because I can kill you from 400 yards with a weapon that you could not hope to have to defend yourself?" Really macho - especially when we had a freezer full of food at home.

I thought about this for a long time, and I concluded that there must be better ways of showing my masculinity than that. And there are. They make me a living.

We are all hardwired to an extent, but some of us are fortunate enough to know that and try to adjust. Sorry if I sound as if I am polishing my halo, but that is how it is.

[Foxglove]

John Wayne could wear the frilliest, frou-frou-est, gauziest, most flowery, pink, lacy gown. . .

I'm trying to picture this--but I just can't quite get there.


Angelina Jolie wearing jeans and a white Tshirt. :p

This I can picture. But would Angelina feel threatened? Perhaps not.


So if CDers who say they are "more feminine than GGs" really mean that they dress in more feminine clothing, then they should say this rather than confuse the issue.

Yeah, it does help to say what you mean.

[Jenniferathome]

Nature has created men to be creators of beauty because it is in their sexuality to possess beauty. Beauty is male sexuality, the two things are synonymous. They may be separated but still they are always intertwined.

Perhaps the female has become ugly in her masculinity so the male creates feminine beauty in himself to replace what has been lost from the world.

It is not so much that female physical beauty has been lost but the inner vessel has been corrupted and the hardness inside has destroyed the softness outside making it appear false, manipulative and brittle.

It does not surprise me that men run from their wives and into crossdressing.

WTF?!?! You're from earth, right? I can't even begin to understand a mind that writes nonsense like this.

[Jenniferathome]

Oh, but I'm so much more feminine than her, right? Fact is that in the way I dress, I'm more feminine than probably 98% of the women of my town. But that's only because they don't want to dress this way. And it's because they don't need to dress this way in order to be perceived as feminine.

Wow, you are confused. Clothes do NOT make the woman feminine. THAT is why most women are perceived as feminine regardless of their attire. You are most certainly NOT more feminine than 98% of the women in your town.

[Foxglove]

Oh, but I'm so much more feminine than her, right? Fact is that in the way I dress, I'm more feminine than probably 98% of the women of my town. But that's only because they don't want to dress this way. And it's because they don't need to dress this way in order to be perceived as feminine.



Wow, you are confused. Clothes do NOT make the woman feminine. THAT is why most women are perceived as feminine regardless of their attire. You are most certainly NOT more feminine than 98% of the women in your town.

Jennifer, instead of reading just this part of my post that Reine quoted, if you read the entire post, you'll see that you've totally misconstrued my remarks here:


Reine, I can well understand why a GG might get a bit exasperated on this point--especially given that it is a point that's repeated fairly often on this forum.

I have a hard time imagining why any GG would feel threatened by me. How could I be a threat to her? What has she got that I could possibly take from her? In what way could I possibly undermine her standing in the community or anywhere else?

Oh, but I'm so much more feminine than her, right? Fact is that in the way I dress, I'm more feminine than probably 98% of the women of my town. But that's only because they don't want to dress this way. And it's because they don't need to dress this way in order to be perceived as feminine. So if anybody's threatened, who is it? I personally don't feel threatened by women, though--just envious as hell. So not being able to deal with my envy, I'll project it onto them. That will make me feel better. They're envious of me, they feel threatened by me. I'll stick in my thumb and pull out a plum and say, "What a fabulous girlie am I!"

You've got what I said exactly backwards. Reine understood my intent because she read the entire post.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Jodi]

Original post is way to long to read sorry Freddy.
Not sure why you do that but carry on.

I agree with Tracii. Your posts, in general, are way too long and involved. Because of this, I usually skip over your posts.

I did read some of this post. Adult women don't like to be called girls. I was a manager in a large setting with an all female staff. Had I referred to my staff as my girls or the girls, they would have hung me out to dry.

Jodi

[andrea lace]

IMHO it seems that some members have posted comments here without reading the thread from the start and are jumping in with comments that are not really on the original topic.
I personally read the OP, then read all of the comments made and only comment and contribute if I have something worthwhile to say. I have no problem if some members wish to quote me when replying to an OP but please make it in context to what is being talked about?

[Debbie Johnson]

Hi Busker,

Your response feels right. We may be taking too much into consideration. My experience suggests woman are clearly more open to us than men but also more welcoming to TS people. "Just a crossdresser" suggests a hierarchy and pecking order that may understate our value and the price we pay to be our authentic selves. When there is a violent attack on a T person, the attacker most often does not make any destinction between CD and TS. The world is to contentious in any event. Our aims and objectives are close enough that we should be mutually supportive and not antagonistic.

[Alice Torn]

Kelly Jameson, You are on to something, I am afraid. I am one who dresses partly because i do not see or experience feminine softness and beauty , but all too often hardness, and hostility, especially from GG's of the BABY BOOMER era. I believe the baby boomer women got so tired of being sexual objects, put on a pedestal for decades, by songs, movies, and in general, that they rebelled against it, and male attention, and a hardening of the females minds and hearts took root big time. I agree that part of my dressing, if not all of it, is being starved for female beauty.

[Frédérique]

Oh, don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that GG’s present the ONLY problem facing the MtF crossdresser. I’m just presenting this particular idea because it’s nagging at me. Sound familiar? WARNING: this is a lengthy response, so all you lovers of short posts may wish to turn away…
:clap:


I think the mistake might have been attributing the disapproval to only women. This is an issue among both men and women, in all the major cultures in our civilization, and it is a bias that has existed all through recorded history… if I were to name one gender who disapproves more than the other, it would be men, not women.

True, but not relevant to this discussion. The topic at hand emerged from a noticeable GG bias against MtF crossdressers in THIS section of the forum. If I wished to include bias from males, I would’ve put GM or GB in the title, not GG. Let’s not go off topic here. I think we are all aware that “normal” males have a huge problem with what we do – just ask those young males who bullied me in the playground, or ask those males who consistently expound strength over sensitivity, or ask any male who will call me queer without giving it a second thought. That’s not the issue here…

Let me ask you this – how many 100% normal masculine males, i.e. those who are outside of the community, register at this site to say how “confused” they are about MtF crossdressing, and they take the opportunity to defend their way of thinking (and doing)? I think there have been a few since I’ve been active here, but mostly its females who voice their lack of understanding, one after the other, as if we are violating them in some way. Obviously, males who crossdress would understand other males who crossdress, so posting something titled, “What’s the problem with GM’s?” wouldn’t make much sense, unless you were on a site with a healthy proportion of non-CD males. Good luck doing that! In any event, we are not emulating males by crossdressing as females, so we certainly aren’t interested in their approval…

There’s plenty of time and space to disseminate males, in fact the very “act” of MtF crossdressing is a way to demonstrate that dissemination. Even though Lorileah has warned us not to make this into an “Us vs. Them” discussion, I think you’re trying to do just that, simply because you feel you have to. Since you’re the most visible GG in this neck of the woods (at present), I must say that your consistent defensiveness speaks volumes about why GG’s will never FULLY accept men who dress as women. Even GG’s who appear sympathetic on the surface have a problem with us – I can see it, I can read it, and I can feel it. It comes through between the lines, or in the form of something innocent, like an ill-placed emoticon. I think males (by birth) in this section have been looking in the mirror and assessing themselves a lot more than the GG’s who cannot drop their innate defenses. Perhaps we’re going in opposite directions, reversing roles and flipping the poles, but there must me a middle ground somewhere…

I see a parallel with those who cannot (or will not) understand what I’m trying to say because the OP is too long, too much like complex homework, and its very presence is threatening. One quick glance, and someone will decide that my words aren’t worth reading. That’s fine, I don’t mind, but why go to all the trouble of posting one’s aversion to something they have chosen not to understand, in the main body of the forum, no less? Doesn’t anybody care about the person’s feelings? I would never do this to someone on this site, i.e. complain about their particular mode of expression. In a similar vein, I don’t understand why a GG would adopt a posture where MtF crossdressing is too difficult for her to understand, so she’s going to spread that opinion around, in a place where such an opinion is unwelcome. Of course many MtF crossdressers have a hard time understanding their own need to dress, and their ignorant peers have a HUGE problem with it, but I would think that women, deep down inside, might be more sympathetic if they gave the idea half a chance…

Nothing is going to change, of course, but this discussion highlights how similar M and F are, not only in the shared appreciation of societal expectations and best use of one’s time, but also how stubborn both genders can be when it comes to pushing a little understanding through. You aren’t the one crossdressing, so you’ll never see things from my point of view…
:straightface:


And although progeny is not an issue, even gay men also experience difficulties when their gay partners all of a sudden want to become women. This puts the gay partner in a bind, because he is not attracted to women.

Again, this is not relevant to the discussion at hand. That’s another topic, for another time, and perhaps a different part of the forum. Boys who dress up as girls and the backlash they get from real girls is the issue here…

[Tamara Croft]

I see a parallel with those who cannot (or will not) understand what I’m trying to say because the OP is too long, too much like complex homework, and its very presence is threatening.You really aren't getting it are you? It's the font you're using, people can't read it, loads of people have said as much, but you have chose to ignore their words and carried on posting with that font. BTW, I took a look at your editing, you don't need to use '2' font size, it's automatically that size and you don't need to use 'black' either, the standard colour is black. Maybe I'll just remove all the fonts/sizes etc because they cause enough problems.

Edit - well with all this bickering on font sizing, I've turned it off... and size...

[kittypw GG]

Even GG’s who appear sympathetic on the surface have a problem with us – I can see it, I can read it, and I can feel it. It comes through between the lines, or in the form of something innocent, like an ill-placed emoticon. I think males (by birth) in this section have been looking in the mirror and assessing themselves a lot more than the GG’s who cannot drop their innate defenses. Perhaps we’re going in opposite directions, reversing roles and flipping the poles, but there must me a middle ground somewhere…

, I don’t understand why a GG would adopt a posture where MtF crossdressing is too difficult for her to understand, so she’s going to spread that opinion around, in a place where such an opinion is unwelcome. Of course many MtF crossdressers have a hard time understanding their own need to dress, and their ignorant peers have a HUGE problem with it, but I would think that women, deep down inside, might be more sympathetic if they gave the idea half a chance…


Of course there can be some middle ground if crossdressers would start by being honest. Even the ones who are up front about the crossdressing keep most of the truth hidden. So even if you start a relationship knowing about the crossdressing, most of the time you are only getting the tip of the iceburg of the truth. Many gg's I know start out with knowing, accepting and even participating until they find out that their so is gay, wants to be a women and hates his man parts or wants a man when he is presenting as a women. It is very confusing and hurtful to find out your spouse is crusing trans sites to hook up with other cd's who are also probably married or attatched. How can middle ground be achieved when there is so much lying? How can one trust? To my eye many of the acts of crossdressers are irrational, impulsive and sneeky. Please don't say "society made me do it" There are women out there that find feminine men a turn on but even they will be soured when lied to. I see a change comming with honesty.

Personally I am in the group of "I will never understand" this phenomonon but I don't think it is really necessary to understand. I am all about judging the relationship. Is the relationship healthy, honest, does it fullfill my needs. How does it make me feel? If all of those answers are negative even the straightest manliest man could not make me stay with it.

[Ellanore G.G.]

I personally have no problem with crossdressers.
But My Husband , well thats different, as Im only intimate with him.
So the impact that crossdressing has on a marriage can be huge.
My H trivialised c/ding when he told me, Its soooo NOT only a dress.
Am I supposed to know he would like to have flowers, have the door held for him ?
How was I supposed to get into his head and know all this ?
So My problem was with my H and not with c/dressing.
I told him it was like wishing he could win the lotto , but never actually buying a ticket ..
Took us nearly ten years, to get to this happy middle.
But its everything else, that pulled us through this.
He now tells me what he needs/likes, sometimes I can help, and other times , Well he can dream cant he ..x

[TGMarla]

When you boil it all down to gravy, I think it's a simple answer. Most women disapprove of MtF crossdressing because they have been conditioned by their upbringing, their genetic predispositions, their peers, and by society in general to want to be with MEN. They believe, therefore, that men should be men, act like men (hopefully gentlemen), want to be men, and not want to run around looking like women. I can understand that frame of mind without a whole lot of effort.

[April_Ligeia]

I honestly haven't noticed any posts from women in this forum that made me feel they were disapproving of me, or of what I do. I read most of the threads. I guess there have been occasional comments, but I have noticed comments from other crossdressers that I felt were more judgmental than any I have read by women. I agree that it would be nice if everyone here were accepting, but I really don't feel any of the alleged disapproval by women here.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

It isn’t exclusionist, of course, so GG’s wander into this No Man’s Land to complain about what we do from time to time. You know, “my boyfriend insists on crossdressing – please help me understand what’s going on,” or “I didn’t want this,” or “what’s wrong with you people, anyway, and can we get help for the afflicted?”


Well yes, what do you expect. Some wife finds out her husband CD's after 20 years of marriage, what do you think the reaction is going to be: confusion, and lots of questions, and maybe some anger over not knowing up front. Isn't it obvious?

Now that doesn't mean that GG's in general have a problem with transfolk...because they don't. Many members here interact with GG's all the time if it was as bad as you imply there would be GG's at the doors of every Macy's keeping CD's out...that's not the case.


Some GG’s even go so far as crashing the party, or pouring water on the glowing fire, or, in extreme cases, debunking cherished ideals right out in the open.

It's not "YOUR" party. They're members here too. What, you want only CD's who agree with you 100 percent allowed to me members?


What’s a boy/girl to do? I’d like to feel GOOD about my crossdressing, please...

The only person that can make you truly feel bad about your Crossdressing is YOU. You're the one that uses the words "deviant" and other negative words in your posts. You're the one that often posts "Everyone hates us, woe is us, let us revel in secret." posts. Have you ever thought that your viewpoint is skewed by your obvious internalized transphobia?


There are many exceptions to what I have just described, i.e. GG’s who are genuinely supportive in a compassionate sense, but others send me around the bend.

Support does not equal approval.


I’m appreciative of GG’s who genuinely like (or accept) what we do, but most of the time I feel like we are under attack from those we are trying to emulate. What do YOU think the problem is?
:idontknow:

I don't see any attacking going on from GG's. What I'm seeing in this post and others from you is a persecution complex, most likely stemming from internalized transphobia. The GG's/TS's/TG's aren't out to get you, they just have different opinions that sometimes you don't want to hear. That doesn't mean they don't want you to be happy, or to dress how you want.



True, but not relevant to this discussion. The topic at hand emerged from a noticeable GG bias against MtF crossdressers in THIS section of the forum.

Prove it. Newly joined GG's being upset about their CDing partners/husbands, or disagreeing with you or other CD's on various topics does not equal bias.


Even though Lorileah has warned us not to make this into an “Us vs. Them” discussion, I think you’re trying to do just that, simply because you feel you have to. Since you’re the most visible GG in this neck of the woods (at present), I must say that your consistent defensiveness speaks volumes about why GG’s will never FULLY accept men who dress as women.

What? Calling CD's on their bullshit, defending the feelings of partners/SO's an the other things that ReineD does is defensiveness? I am...amazed at your audacity in stating outright foolishness.

As for GG's never accepting...there are plenty of GG's that DO. I know of GG's who go out with the CD/Transgender husband ALL the time. I know of CD's/TG's that have formed friendships with women. And even YOU have an accepting sister, correct? What kind of "they're out to get me world" are you living in?


Even GG’s who appear sympathetic on the surface have a problem with us – I can see it, I can read it, and I can feel it.

Are you sure that's not your own fear and transphobia coming through and making you "THINK" there's a problem when there isn't one.


It comes through between the lines, or in the form of something innocent, like an ill-placed emoticon.

Oh please, now you're just being foolish again. "an ill placed emoticon" geesh! How more self-centered can you be. Not everything is about you. Typos happen all the time.


Doesn’t anybody care about the person’s feelings?

Geez Louise. Don't take things so personally....lighten up a bit. If someone thinks you overuse excessive flowery language to try to convince others of how girly you are, when you just need to get to the point... it's not the end of the world.


I would never do this to someone on this site, i.e. complain about their particular mode of expression.

I'm calling you out on this because you HAVE done it. You have always complained about those who multi-quote or use USENET style quoting practices, especially if they're the same people who disagree with you. And don't play the wounded fragile little girl on this, that act is not going to work forever.


You aren’t the one crossdressing, so you’ll never see things from my point of view…

Why should they? They're not you, so they're going to have differing opinions? What, you want everyone to agree with you all the time?


You really aren't getting it are you? It's the font you're using, people can't read it, loads of people have said as much, but you have chose to ignore their words and carried on posting with that font.

Nods, I was one of the first, which is one reason why ol Frederique there doesn't like me much. I commented on how the legibility was bad, and that the girly font was a crutch to try to convince others on how girly-whirly she is...and she took it personally.

"Book Antiqua" is a "display" style typeface anyway, for print work on paper, signs and whatnot at large font sizes , it's not intended for use as a "screen" font on a computer screen in small sizes.


Edit - well with all this bickering on font sizing, I've turned it off... and size...

Excellent!

Veronica

[kimdl93]

Honestly, Freddy, I don't ever feel I'm under attack, neither here, nor in my real life. I spend a good deal of time en femme with GGs - both within my immediate family and out it public. Sure, I see a few eye rolls and smirks, but by and large I get very positive responses.

At the same time, I realize that I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea and I don't need to be. If I'm invited to the ladies party, great! I'll feel comfortable as long as the women around me are comfortable with my presence. I suppose my public presence at a women's clothing store or salon might seem like I'm crashing the party, but so far, the reactions I've received have been so positive and encouraging. My experience, in the real world, has been very much felt like a I'm welcome to join the party or the GG team.

[michelle64]

what we need is a law passed to make them accept us..yes thats it we need a law cause we have rights..damnit we have acceptance rights..think ill petition my legislative body and call it the the "GG's and SO have to accept the CD in there life cause we are tired of bitchin act of 2013"...strong penalties apply..oh i just love it...if i was a GG id never date you cause 99% of you (cd's) are selfish and self centered as hell...get a clue

[Jessica86]

It leaves her with a husband who's physically repulsive to her. Remember recently when someone posted photos of gorgeous women with beards and hairy chests? I don't think it's so hard to understand why a woman might not be thrilled about the idea of her husband trying to look feminine.


(Match striking) Don't want to do this....but here comes a burn.

What if.....let's just say....what......if....that was reversed. Say a girl becomes different, for example, fat, or even in a car accident that drastically changed the way she looked to make her "physically repulsive." Wouldn't the guy be looked at as a horrible person for just up and leaving? I hate what ifs, but some women love to say they hate how men judge off of looks...yet they do the exact same in situations like this one. I personally do not see why a woman would be physically demolished over this. My wife has tried putting on my clothes to show me what she feels when she looks at me. Honestly, I showed her I could be intimate with her even with all of it. If you truly love someone, you know it is them under it all.

To answer the original question, in my belief, women are naturally gifted in finding flaws with everything. Girls judge other girls in an instant. "Oh, did you see her shoes? That girl has the weirdest mole. Her elbows are ashy!" These are things guys would not see just by someone walking by, but girls do it all of the time. A cross dressing person has already pointed out their biggest flaw....which, to them, we are all wrong. One GG might have one thing wrong, but we have it all wrong. My case, I'm too tall, my feet are too big, my arms are too big, hands, knees ashy at times, and my voice is deep. It's all of those things.....that make us just blah to them. I think they feel more angry at the fact we are trying to work it with all of those issues. They feel insulted at some point by it.

[Ambergold43]

Want an answer to this thread?

Read: "My Husband Betty: Love, Life, and Sex with a Crossdresser" by Helen Boyd

It is written by a very open-minded "GG" woman who is married to a Crossdresser and does an excellent job explaining some issues that many SO's might have with their Crossdressing husbands. Most women don't "have a problem" with CD'ers, though they might have a problem with how their husband or SO tells them, or how their husband or SO acts, or something like that. If women have a problem, its usually with the lying or sneakiness or obsessive behavior that some crossdressers exhibit, i.e. it's all he wants to do.

Crossdressing is rarely the sole issue in any relationship, if it is an issue at all.

Read it, its like $5 online or go check it out in the library.

[KatieGG]

I can't say I ever felt threatened or insulted or anything like that. When I first found out I thought it was a little odd in an intriguing kind of way and I never had a problem with it. But I can see why other women might, I mean it's not something we see every day and from what I have read many husbands come out after years of being married which would be rather upsetting to find out. But how would you feel if one day your wife or girlfriend told you she wants to put on a fake beard and dress like a guy? I think some men would feel kind of weird about that.

[Jessica86]

But how would you feel if one day your wife or girlfriend told you she wants to put on a fake beard and dress like a guy? I think some men would feel kind of weird about that.

I would find it insulting. What kind of guy wears a beard? If you are going to do it, do it right. Have a shaved look, and wear nice clothes like I have.

Now....let's reverse the sentence to answer to the OP.

I find it insulting. Wear nice clothes, like I have. Shave. No woman wears a beard.

See where I went with that?

[Frédérique]

At the same time, I realize that I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea and I don't need to be. If I'm invited to the ladies party, great! I'll feel comfortable as long as the women around me are comfortable with my presence. I suppose my public presence at a women's clothing store or salon might seem like I'm crashing the party, but so far, the reactions I've received have been so positive and encouraging. My experience, in the real world, has been very much felt like a I'm welcome to join the party or the GG team.

Yes, I agree that MtF crossdressing is not, and probably will never be, a GG’s cup of tea. Despite surface indications that all is hunky dory, wouldn’t you say that cannot last, especially in light of how many threads tell about a SO’s turn-about (on initial acceptance) or the institution of a DADT policy? Obviously, some GG’s have no problem with it, but most GG’s cannot fathom either what is going on, or what might be going on. It seems to me they rightly fall back upon solid ground, i.e. what they do understand (or what they have been taught) about gender concepts…

I would join the GG “team” in a minute, but I may be overdressed!:heehee:


But how would you feel if one day your wife or girlfriend told you she wants to put on a fake beard and dress like a guy? I think some men would feel kind of weird about that.

I was thinking about this very idea today, in fact I’d like to ask the FtM members if they have encountered any backlash from MEN. It seems to me that MtF crossdressers would have no problem with other forms of crossdressing, but males outside the community might take issue with it…
:straightface:

[Asche]

I did read the OP, and I disagree with pretty much everything zie said.

Mainly, I flatly dispute idea that disapproval of CD'ing is a GF thing. If anything, my experience both here and in RL is that GFs are statistically less likely to give CDers grief for their "hobby." That includes here: there are plenty of posts in this forum by CDers criticizing other CDers for how they choose to dress. For that matter, there's one right above mine in this thread.

As others in this thread have pointed out, GFs have complained about how their CD'ing SOs behave around their CDing. The lies. The expectation that the SOs and the relationship should be focussed on the CD'ers needs, desires, and comfort to the exclusion of the SOs' needs. I don't see this as disapproval of CD'ing per se, and I think the GFs have a point. A lot of CDers (like a lot of people in general) behave badly at times, and they would be the better for it if they listened when it's pointed out to them rather than blowing it off as "they don't understand." If you feel like these posts are "attacks" on you -- well, if the shoe fits....

It also rubs me the wrong way to see all GFs lumped together, as if they were a bunch of identical clones. Some GFs love the fact that the Man In Their Life CDs (and some of them post about it!), some think that CDs belong in jail, and others think -- well, just about any view you can imagine, there are some GFs who have it. Just as the CDers here feel disrespected when Society(tm) lumps them all together into a single caricature, I think it disrespects GFs to talk as if they are all dumping on CDers.


it is sometimes difficult for me to erase from my memory the countless posts I've read in this forum and a sentiment that is shared by many, that generally CDers are so much more feminine and dress much better, and even "pass" better than GGs, who are all so darned masculine because they wear men's clothes!
Yes, I've seen plenty of those posts, and they rub me (GM) the wrong way every time, too. This is disrespect for who someone is (GFs, in this case) at a fundamental level. And, no, I don't buy the claim "we're only talking about our ability to wear women's clothes." It's pretty clear from the context that these posters think that they're better at being women than the people who've been doing it all their lives. (Try looking up "mansplaining" sometime.)

And that's what I find annoying about the whole OP. To complain about GFs (all lumped together) "attacking" CDers, while not considering the things that (male) CDers (shall we lump them all together, too?) do that are the reason for those so-called "attacks" is classic sexism.

[Jenniferathome]

.... But how would you feel if one day your wife or girlfriend told you she wants to put on a fake beard and dress like a guy? I think some men would feel kind of weird about that.

Katie, you are absolutely correct. And don't limit it to a fake beard, we MtF cross dressers very often have additional "body parts" added to the mix. I suspect it would be far more than "some" who felt weird about it. We cross dressers have no objectivity.

[Trishpdxcd2]

Well I absolutely adore gg's who are open to girls like me, though I think they are much too few. I think it goes to basic biology of a man protects a woman and how could a man who dresses as a woman do that. But we evolve in many ways past primitive biology and the gg's who accept us are truly evolved in my mind.

[TNRobin]

I know of women who See's a TS,CD or a drag queen as competition. they do not want the competition. the TS,CD or a drag queen goes to more effort to impress and look there best.

That's pretty much the same thing that my therapist told me when I asked her that question.

[thewife/soon2bex]

There are so many postings here but there is one thing stands out to me on the board. As a GG I think one of the issues I see most are the "testing the boundries" between a GG and and SO. I put this in the same category of a child testing the boundries of a parent. I have seen GG's here who do their best to be supportive and their SO pushing the boundries without thinking of the cause or effect it will have on the GG. As a parent, this was the one thing with my child that would drive me nuts. Instead of thinking about what their supportive GG or W etc would think, they do it anyway without thinking of the consequences of their actions. If a GG/SO is supportive of the dressing and have discussed certain aspects of dressing that they are uncomfortable with I have noticed those who "just do it". Examples: shaving, wigs, going beyonds the boundries thereby ignoring the needs of those that love them. This to me is a major issues that does not take into the feelings or needs of the partner. Just my 2 cents but I believe if some would think before they do and really see what they are doing, it would change alot. I also think if more GG's did what their SO was doing and did whatever they wanted maybe the SO would begin to think about how their actions are affecting the woman who love them. Just my thoughts

[kimdl93]

[QUOTE=Frédérique;3110628][COLOR="black"].... Despite surface indications that all is hunky dory, wouldn’t you say that cannot last, especially in light of how many threads tell about a SO’s turn-about (on initial acceptance) or the institution of a DADT policy? ...COLOR]

Like so much else in life, the anecdotal evidence offered here of "initial acceptance" and those reports of susequent turn-about, must be taken with a grain of salt. We only get a glimpse, sometimes skewed, of the actual interactions between the CDr and her SO. I suspect that we CDrs are inclined to see acceptance when we hope for it, and may take things too far, too fast and without much thought for our partners. A more patient and considerate "coming-out" might help avoid some of the backlash you've described.

That doesn't mean that there's a reliable formula for acceptance. I do think that clarity, honestly and patience may improve the odds of acceptance.

[Di]

Sometimes I think of this place as a boys’ clubhouse, with an imaginary “no girls allowed” sign on the door. It isn’t exclusionist, of course, so GG’s wander into this No Man’s Land to complain about what we do from time to time. You know, “my boyfriend insists on crossdressing – please help me understand what’s going on,” or “I didn’t want this,” or “what’s wrong with you people, anyway, and can we get help for the afflicted?” Some GG’s even go so far as crashing the party, or pouring water on the glowing fire, or, in extreme cases, debunking cherished ideals right out in the open. What’s a boy/girl to do? I’d like to feel GOOD about my crossdressing, please...


I think you are being unfair with the GGs postings you are describing.
For these are the new GGs that just were told after 20 yrs or GGs that walked in on their partner. Give them credit for trying to go SOMEWHERE to understand.

You were given the answer HERE

Ambergold43

Want an answer to this thread?

Read: "My Husband Betty: Love, Life, and Sex with a Crossdresser" by Helen Boyd

It is written by a very open-minded "GG" woman who is married to a Crossdresser and does an excellent job explaining some issues that many SO's might have with their Crossdressing husbands. Most women don't "have a problem" with CD'ers, though they might have a problem with how their husband or SO tells them, or how their husband or SO acts, or something like that. If women have a problem, its usually with the lying or sneakiness or obsessive behavior that some crossdressers exhibit, i.e. it's all he wants to do.

Crossdressing is rarely the sole issue in any relationship, if it is an issue at all.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Want an answer to this thread?

Read: "My Husband Betty: Love, Life, and Sex with a Crossdresser" by Helen Boyd

It is written by a very open-minded "GG" woman who is married to a Crossdresser and does an excellent job explaining some issues that many SO's might have with their Crossdressing husbands.

MHB is a good book that does explain the issues, I even have an autographed copy. (And an autographed copy of "She's Not the Man I Married" too. However, time passes and Betty has transitioned.




I would join the GG “team” in a minute, but I may be overdressed!:heehee:[/COLOR]


If that's the case, why do you refuse to identify as TG in any way, as you have stated many many times.

Veronica

[Tamara Croft]

If that's the case, why do you refuse to identify as TG in any way, as you have stated many many times.In denial... and you won't get an answer because half the questions asked have been ignored... if Freddy answers you, I'll eat my hat :eek:

I think next time you get an idea Freddy, take more than a couple of days to think about posting it, all you've done really is bitch about the GG members here, when they've done nothing to you. Maybe when you've been led up the garden path and lied to about something for 20+ years, you'll know what it's like, until then, try and understand what it's like for others!

[Stephanie47]

Wow! I started reading this thread awhile ago and came back to it. Yes, Freddie's threads can be loquacious. The posts can also cover a lot of ground, a lot of ground.

Freddie opines: "What do you think the problem is?"

The responses for the most part seem to border on generalizations, the collective group responses to an individual marital relationship. So, really, "What do you think the problem is?"

Well, I'm in one of those "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" marriages. How did we get there? My wife clearly cannot understand why I do what I do. That makes the two of us. She does not want to participate. Fine. I do not want her to participate.

The next logical question is Why did she not split, when my cross dressing developed passed what we had mutually engaged in, which was friendly sexual bedroom play? In MY situation, it was because she knew it was two faced to discard a husband, who accepted her for who is is and did not kick her to the curb for revealing the things she had once done. I will tell you, the issues in our marriage that have really affected our marriage weigh heavily in her court. I accepted her for who she is, which is more than her perceived faults. The vast majority of guys I know would have dropped her, not unlike the vast majority, if not 99%, of the women, who would have dropped their cross dressing man.

I will wrap it all into a nice little gift box with a pretty bow. When she realized I was a cross dresser, and, a very closeted cross dresser, she stated she wished she had NEVER disclosed her perceived faults, her societal transgressions, her issues, because IT WOULD HAVE MADE IT EASY FOR HER TO JUST WALK AWAY FROM OUR MARRIAGE! She was more concerned of the scorn society may heap upon me, and, therefore her, because I am a cross dresser.

So, in my unique situation, my private situation, I do not seek validation from her or anyone else for who I have become. I do not want to leave my closet. I do not want her to join me in exploring myself.

I will not answer the question for others. My wife does not like cross dressing because it is something a man should not do.

[Tamara Croft]

OMG! I never knew! Sorry Tam..that must have been horrible...! My heart goes out to YOU Sweetness! :(

I hope you kicked his/her A** out to the curb? :devil:Oh the sarcasm :rolleyes: FYI, I wasn't talking about myself, I was talking about members in general, it never happened to me, I knew from the get go... so get your facts straight in future... sweetness...

[Debglam]

If that's the case, why do you refuse to identify as TG in any way, as you have stated many many times.
Veronica


In denial... and you won't get an answer because half the questions asked have been ignored... if Freddy answers you, I'll eat my hat :eek:

I think next time you get an idea Freddy, take more than a couple of days to think about posting it, all you've done really is bitch about the GG members here, when they've done nothing to you. Maybe when you've been led up the garden path and lied to about something for 20+ years, you'll know what it's like, until then, try and understand what it's like for others!

:yt:

Freddy, I'm not piling on here but you have made clear in the past that your crossdressing is something personal to you and that you do in the privacy of your own home. That is cool but for those of us that are out and about and those of us that identify as somewhere on the trans scale, we welcome GG input.

[luscious]

there are some women who do not want an emotion and or feminine man and there are some who get excited that a man can or will dress like a girl and can look sometimes pretty.

many women will ponder the question" is he gay?"

[withasmile]

It has nothing to do with challenging my identity, I have not one speck of jealousy that my partner wants to be a girl. It has everything to do with frankly, embarrassment. Embarrassment over what friends, neighbors think, how they view me being with him (desperate, can't get a real man, weak - she puts up with that??) and how they might treat us - there are so many bigots in this world! Many people are not kind to anyone who is different, and are rigid in their viewpoints. ( Like some of my friends who are anti - Obama - you'd be amazed how nasty they can be towards those that voted for him- friendships lost over politics! - how shallow and silly! I managed to stay out of it - and still love them for all the other reasons i call them friends, but jeesh! ) I'd also worry about my kids and how they are treated. My kids have already experienced bullying for 'normal' reasons - why would I want them to experience the possibility of more? Many women are social creatures, their standing in their community matters to them.

It has to do with attraction. I like MEN - I could see occasional interactions with girls as something sexy - but it's not my preference. Sometimes if he's in the mood to dress its a turn off because I was craving him and not the type of play he has in mind when he dresses. It's dissatisfying then, and not fun. And I have a lot of fun with his CDing - a lot of the time. It's during those times I think a 'normal' man would be better because my needs arent being met.

Plus - with the attraction as a topic still - he is not a pretty girl. I've bought him things - I've helped him dress. The sad fact of the matter is that there are ugly GGs that you can put all the make up in the world on, and dress sexy, and no one would find attractive, never mind a 6'3 guy that could lose a few. One person on this site put it well, would you find your wife attractive if she showed up in a beard, and could only have sex with you wearing a suit and tie? Would you feel proud showing her off at the office party - even if she didn't look convincing as a man or particularly attractive? What if she chose to be this way every day and never made any attempt to look like the pretty girl you married? When sex is involved, I focus not on how he looks, but how he responds to the clothes, and the feel of the clothes.



I can't relate to many of the things he likes to wear either. I like to be comfortable. Heels are not comfortable. Pantyhose are not comfortable. ****ty clothes make me uncomfortable as too much attention makes me uncomfortable. A lot of the clothes he and other CDs like I've seen aren't classy - more trailer park style (sorry if that offends anyone generalizing about those that live in trailers. I do know that this isn't true for all, just making a point.)

Also - when he is dressed - he likes men too. I worry that some time from now he may only want men and not me anymore. CD does impact his sexuality. It would be foolish not to worry about it either, because I've read tons about CD ing, transsexuals, MtF etc - some do want to be a female in every way. it's a very real possibility that at some point he will want to be she full time - and where does that leave me?

Crossdressing affects my world too - that may sound selfish but it's a fact. And even though 'he is still the same person inside' that is part of the problem unfortunately. Any marriage has issues, things you think there is no way you can put up with for another 5, 10 years - hell another minute sometimes! Divorce seems easier, attractive at times. Put the added burden of dealing with cross dressing into the mix and it's easy to see why some women choose to divorce. It goes along the lines of why should I have to deal with this too, when you act like, behave like, treat me like.... - fill in the blank. It's a last straw sort of thing.

That being said, I do my best to be supportive, loving, buy him things and if he wanted to be a she full time I would continue to be that way. I would be his biggest defender. I might not be able to be married to him - I don't know. The craving to be with a guy guy could be too strong and the desire to have to not deal with all the challenges in addition to normal married life may be why we don't get to grow old together. I can't honestly say. I want to. I do love him.

When GGs say these things to you - it's not to rain on your parade or keep you from enjoying yourself. Have fun! But if you have a partner and you want to keep your partner, realize that what you do affects them. And honestly that goes for anything people like to do, drinking, hunting, video games, even volunteering -our desires, hobbies, and outside life can have negative effects on your married life if the others needs are not considered.

[Maria S]

In my opinion the GGs who come into contact with Maria are more supportive. I suppose they know the advantages of womanhood and can see why a man should want to do it or to live like you want to live. It is men that seem to disapprove of CDing as if it is some insult to manhood and that we are letting the side down.

Maria

[TGMarla]

I swear, this happens every time. Whenever a CD asks a generic question about the problems that real women have with us, even one that should elicit a discussion resulting in some teachable moments, the OP gets lambasted for piling on the GGs. I think it's rather obvious that for the most part, we all welcome the presence of GGs, very often the SOs of CDs (hate all these acronyms!), to our forum. They are best able to articulate the problems they have in dealing with crossdressing men in their lives, and bring us a female viewpoint to the whole issue. I would think that we would all welcome the opportunity to listen to them vent their actual issues on dealing with crossdressing in their lives. We certainly can all learn a thing or two from them. And isn't that what this forum, at least on one level, is all about?

But no, invariably it's more like stepping in dog poo. The thread gets opened up, and the politically correct among us just start piling on. You know who you are. And for the record, I don't give a damn about Freddy's font. It's part of her persona here, and if you don't (or didn't in this case) like it, then don't read it! She's articulate, introspective, detailed in her thoughts, thought provoking, and generally a very nice lady.

Why don't some of you attempt to be civilized? Sheesh!

@Withasmile - great answers, dear! That's what we all should be looking for! That's why this thread is here! Kudos!

[Beverley Sims]

I am replying to to this thread totally off topic now.
I have contributed but as it goes on I find a lot of diverse views, topical statements about most things and it is something you should read and try and absorb.
It seems like it is Freddy bashing time at the moment and what ever her faults she has engendered a wide range of discussion by most who remain silent.
Yes I do agree she should answer some of her accusers who have valid points.
If you poke a stick into a hornets nest, expect to be bitten.
Great discussions here I will read on.

[SarahMarie42]

This thread has grown into a behemoth! Wow! xD And a rather cantankerous behemoth at that!

I've actually never had any problems with GGs, whether they were friends or SOs. Guess I'm just lucky.