Confusion

[Lorileah]

I wonder how many of “us” there are? The ones who at a young age knew they were in the wrong body but have learned to “live” with it?

I have picked a point on the spectrum for me. I have made my excuses and alibis on it. I have convinced myself that the reasons are valid. And I am happy with me…sort of ...kind of…mostly.

Certain things in life recently have stirred the pot so to speak. I never thought that I would be interested in anyone again, romantically. In fact, I fought against it, enjoying my new found freedom. But this is why I never say never and always avoid always. And this new “thing” in my life has me wishing again. It brings up memories of when I was young and confused (as compared to being old now and confused). Why didn’t I get what others had (yes read girls…I could not have cared less about the cars or whatever the boys had)? The same question now comes up again. Then logic kicks in and I ask, would that make a difference to him? He likes me as is, so would changing things make it better…or worse?

This is not meant to be a thread to argue CD vs TS vs surgical TS. I know (yeah right) that I will not progress to surgery. Hormones are always in the realm of possibility. But this relationship has me all confused again. It also is not the place to argue sexuality or orientation (that has been beaten to death and I know what mine is…)

So I ask, how many of us have learned to live with who we are even though we know it isn’t “who” we are? I am placing this in the MtF section because even though it addresses TS, I think there are some CDs (labels labels labels) who are in the “I have learned to live with it” camp. So anyone can chime in.

[BillieJoEllen]

I don't like to think of myself as a TS because I believe my mind was designed to reflect me being a female. Okay to some of you that means I am a TS. I accept that. Many years ago I made the mistake of falling in love and marrying. My first allegience is to my wife. Even though my "TSism" sometimes tears me apart I am after all dedicated to my wife. If I had to do it all over again I would not go that route. Even if she were no longer in the picture I don't think I'd be able to proceed further with my TSism (unless it was dressing full time) because of my age and medical conditions. So thats what I live with.

[Rogina B]

I think there are quite few here,like ourselves that are living with it.Some of us don't want to "blow everything up" to make a drastic course change.For me,as long as I have the freedom to live a gender fluid life,I am good for a while.

[MsRenee]

I remember some younger years myself that I would always distance myself from things like sports or doing anything "manly".My free time would be spent around the house learning how to cook, made an awful atrempt at learning sewing lol,decorating. I never asked my parents about this and they did the same, lucky for me as back then there wasnt bullying like today.
I learned how to live with it back then even tho I didnt know what was going on(no internet back then to.learn about it).
I had gottne so good at it ignoring it that it disappered for a good portion of my life til then. Well one day while timkering on the internet I came on a site for dressing and it broufht back all the feelings and the body actions that I had thought were dead. Since then Ive been fully outside, trying to regain all the time Ive lost supressing what truely makes me the happiest. I have no intentions on transitioning as Ive found who I think I was meant to be.
Hope I didnt ramble on too much as stuck to the subject Lori.
Renee

[Stephanie47]

So I ask, how many of us have learned to live with who we are even though we know it isn’t “who” we are? I

Many times this issue seems to generate a belief that there is something more to many of us than there really is. As a senior citizen having lived in the 1950's and 1960's, what I did caused me to do a lot of self examination of my sexuality. I was sure I had to be gay, because I was doing something totally outside the realm of manliness. I knew I liked girls. But, why did I like to wear women's clothing? Was I gay? What did gay mean? I did not know what sexuality or the scope of sexuality was all about.

It took a long time for me to realize what my desires are. I just hope the youngsters on this forum do not misconstrue their desire to wear women's clothing, be it one garment or the total femme look, as an indication it MUST mean there is more to it than just wearing clothes. Sometimes persons are pushed into something they are not because of society's expectations of who they MUST be.

I figure most of us are just what we are: men who like to wear female attire.

[AshleeM]

I'm sure there are many that would love to be full time girls in a perfect world, I am one of them. But alas we don't live in such a world, family obligations, education and other priorities keep me as a crossdresser only. But I have a lot of respect for the ladies that have the courage to go to the doctor and get started on a track that makes them happy.

I totally agree with you, all my childhood through teen years I wondered why I couldn't just be a girl like my classmates. I enjoyed all the things they did and was never too happy with any typical guy stuff, football etc, although I made myself do it so I would be socially accepted. Heck I remember standing on the football field during a game and looking longingly at the cheerleaders and wishing I could be on of them, instead of a football player.

I have hope for the future though, maybe with the help of virtual reality simulators we can all be the person we want to be.

[KarenCDFL]

I have know from as far back as I can remember.

I dressed up from that point on though all of my life.

As a child, I never liked or participated in sports, played with dolls now called Action Figures, read books at an incredible rate and made up whole scenarios and universes in my head

I was in my early 20's when I found out through CompuServe that I was not alone and that there were other people who felt like I do.

Never really thought about transitioning as it would have been something I could have never discussed with my family or friends.

I married twice and both my Ex and my current wife of 18 years were told about dressing up and my current wife is very accepting of it.

And now any thoughts about transitioning are on the permanent back burner because of medical issues, so I live my life the best I can.

On most days, I actually believe I have come to terms with this and I am really happy. Some days that is.

[katlee]

I think this a great thread for us younger CDs or TS. I really do appreciate these forums for such wisdom :)

[Beverley Sims]

I always "think" I was in the wrong body and never started growing a beard till I was 24.
I was put on an estrogen diet and then suddenly had it withdrawn, then testosterone must have taken over.
Then the beard and other changes kicked in.
Whilst on estrogen I grew small breasts, and certainly had the mind shift that everyone talks about.
I had been very active as a girl before that and if I had not been instructed to withdraw "treatment" may have been someone quite different by now.

[kimdl93]

Its hard for me to answer this in a clear, linear way. I "knew" there was something different about me from very early childhood. I knew that in some ways I was feminine and it was very clear to me that this was undesirable. (or in other words I got teased by my siblings) So, I perhaps overcompensated with attitude, sports etc. The other part didn't disappear, and the repression had some adverse side effects - like tantrums, a terribly judgemental attitude towards others and a deep seated, nagging self doubt and self loathing.

Some time ago, courtesy a patient and skilled psychologist, I was able to confront the issues and say aloud to another person "I like wearing womens clothes". My god, I thought I was going to die....but I didn't. She simply smiled, said, "its not a crime, you know" and we went on to explore why I felt the need to hide this part of myself.

That was really just the beginning of learning to live with myself as I am. The next step was finding the resolve to come out to my then GF. I fully expected rejection, but that didn't happen. And as our relationship has grown over the years, she's been wiling to take this journey with me...different though it is. I'm still learning to live with being different, but no longer feel the self loathing that corrupted much of my early life. In fact, by embracing who I am, I've found a sense of freedom and self confidence that eluded me for decades.

[Kate Simmons]

Regardless of who we are or who we think we are, how we utilize the experiences we have had in life pretty much defines us.

[Carlene]

I'm not sure how to answer this. I like the way way Rogina describes her experience as being gender fluid.

I personally find this thread difficult to answer because I did all the boy (and later manly) things. I do them to this day and still enjoy them. Having said that, there is another part to me, two sides of a coin, if you will. Each side is clearly different but, both contribute to the entire presence and value of the coin. One side is more damaged because it has been subject to an ongoing moulding process. The other, has been largely ignored, and as a result has a much cleaner slate. It is easy to like this side better in that it has had less time to make mistakes and be hurtful.

So, I really like the idea of gender fluidity. Perhaps, I can become a better human being by trying to live by the best attributes of both. In my world, I am striving to celebrate both blue and my new favourite colour, pink......:daydreaming:

[danielleinbr]

Learned to live with it? Absolutely. From a young age I knew I was different from my peers. Did I understand it? Not until years later. I had to learn to live with it or not live. Therapy helped me accept me as I am. I learned to be practical is the best way to put it. Would I change anything in the future I don't know, but I am happy where I am for now and learned to not regret things I may have done differently. To me, regret or dwelling on such things is a waste of energy. Am I happy? Most of the time and trying to be all the time :)
Danielle

[andrea lace]

I have been fighting the urge for many years deliberately doing manly stuff getting into fights went into the Army doing macho stuff in general. As I got older I felt my secret was ripping me and those around me apart. In the end I felt I had to tell my wife and I am a lot happier more relaxed and those closest to me are much happier not having to live with a moody asshole. I believe secrets are not free they always end up costing someone something

[Joanne f]

I have sort of played a game with myself over the years not really saying to myself that I am in the wrong body but when I look back and think of all the things I have done and thought of doing some of which I should definably not put on here then it becomes apparent that I have wanted to change my body for a long time to how I feel inside but somehow over come that by being busy all the time and concentrating on other things , to tell the truth it scares me a bit some of the things that I might have done but thankfully did not,but that game is now played out as I now know that things cannot change now which takes a bit of pressure off but it does not take it all away so I am at a stage where I can cope simply because I have to , OK maybe I am still playing the game just that the rules have changed a bit .
( Poo I did not realise writing a post would get at me this much now I have to think of or do something to change the game back to my advantage )
( OK maybe I should not say this ( OK I know I should not say this) but I think some of it has been the fact that at times I have thought " I cannot be one of those people that need to change their body " as it can come as bit of a surprise when you realise that you are one of those , I really hope no one takes that the wrong way as I have immense respect for the TS as I know how much you have to go thought to get what you want , you have far more courage than I do .

[SarahMarie42]

I would love to live as a woman, and still think that, someday, I might. As for now, however, juggling the monstrous burden of transitioning and addressing these issues with my academic goals would prove far too difficult to allow for either to be handled successfully. Luckily, I'm done growing, there's no time-preference, and I can sort these things out when I feel I am ready.

[April_Ligeia]

Like so many others here, when I was younger, pre-internet, I thought I was alone in my seemingly deviant desire to dress as a woman. I got married, did the classic overcompensation by being overly masculine, but could not keep it up as middle age hit. When tried to discuss my dysphoria with my ex-wife, it caused a permenant rift. I pretty much dealt with that by working too much and then drinking too much when I wasn't working.
Since my marriage failed, I have had many times when I wonder how things would have been if I had transitioned when I was younger. But now I have two teenaged sons, and I know transitioning now would be a horrible idea. I currently live with a girlfriend who encourages my dressing, and things are much better. I have come to terms with the fact that I will be maintaining this status quo into the foreseeable future.
Of course, the mind wanders, and I still think of what could have been or may be someday.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I wonder how many of “us” there are? The ones who at a young age knew they were in the wrong body but have learned to “live” with it?

So I ask, how many of us have learned to live with who we are even though we know it isn’t “who” we are? I am placing this in the MtF section because even though it addresses TS, I think there are some CDs (labels labels labels) who are in the “I have learned to live with it” camp. So anyone can chime in.

A lot. Especially amongst the CD's that join non-internet support groups and regularly go out in public. Among those, I'd say about 30 percent are actually TS's who are basically "settling" for CDing. Some call it the middle path (though how I see that is a bit different)...some call it other things. I usually call them proto-TS's, and I can spot em right quick, in part because I was one of them and I got spotted quick.


I have picked a point on the spectrum for me. I have made my excuses and alibis on it. I have convinced myself that the reasons are valid. And I am happy with me…sort of ...kind of…mostly.

Yep, been there done that, got the cap sleeve t-shirt. Though eventually I began identifying as a TS. I hope some others start doing so as well. I engage in what is sometimes referred to as "cheerleading" on another board with those people.

Veronica

[Miranda09]

Well, I have learned to live with who I am, acknowledging this IS who I am. For me, this is just a side of personality I'm glad I finally explored and experienced and I think it contributed to my personality over the years. I have no desire to transition because losing my other (male) side is not acceptable. I like to think I've managed a happy compromise as to who and what I am. Tho it still gets confusing in that I love the feeling within (mentally and physically), I don't dwell on it anymore. I just enjoy it. :)

[Marleena]

Hi Lorileah. The best advice I've ever seen on this forum is if you don't need to transition then don't. Nothing wrong with sitting on the fence at all.

Some of the other girls here identify as TS but still manage to get by. If it gets to be too much seek out a gender therapist.

[I Am Paula]

Being 'Too soon old, too late smart', by the time I firmly decided I was the wrong sex, transition in the true sense seemed pointless. I have learned to be a happy non-op/non hrt woman. One could argue whether I'm true ts or not. I don't know WHAT I am, but it's working.- celeste

[Amy Fakley]

learning to live with it beats the alternative, and in the end is I think all any of us can ever really do.
speaking for myself, I can't say I've "learned" to live with it in the past tense ... it's a continuous, eternal holding pattern of self-discovery, negotiation, and compromise.

I wish it wasn't, but wishes are you know ... for the most part ... things we'd do if we could afford it. The cost of losing my wife, and my kids, and most of my extended family, and more than likely my career ... that cost is too expensive. So I do that internal negotiation and compromise on staying the course deep in my closet and hold out a slim hope that some day some unforeseen turn of events might make this life somehow easier. And the holding pattern continues.

But you know, it's not all bad. It really, really isn't.

We often say on this board "if I'd only made different choices when I was younger, I'd happily be a girl today" and the like. Well maybe ... there are so many pitfalls no matter what path we chose. Honestly, if I'd have taken that path, I'd have probably only traded these frustrations and sorrows for a fully different set.

We are what we are, where we are. What we do with that is what defines our reality ... or as the quotable P-Diddy put it:
"yo the sun don't shine forever, so as long as we're here, than we might as well shine together".

[KellyJameson]

Oh Oh... I wondered if and when this would happen with you.

In my opinion it is not about him but you.

Do you want to make love to him or any man with a vagina?

Think about the psychological experience of this.

If you can imagine it with all its nuances and subtlelties than you may have your answer.

I am not talking about being dominated so being submissive.

When it comes to being transsexual that is just plain stupid to think about because there is nothing submissive or dominant about it.

Men who want to be dominated by men should stay men and admit they are into the domination because they like being sexually submissive.

Do you want to connect to him in a way that is only possible with breasts and a vagina but this connection has nothing to do with him but only how you need to express yourself to experience "connection"

Can you only imagine yourself as experiencing "intimacy" which is different than being intimate "in the body of a woman" ?

Does your body prevent intimacy for you?

You may lose the ability to experience orgasm but orgasm is not intimacy, only an aspect of it.

Does your body prevent you from the experience of connection as love?

Your "energy" as the expression of your physical brain that makes intimacy possible will feel frustrated by the body you are in when this body is not in alignment with your brain.

Do not think about physical beauty because this will only confuse you. Think only about your body as the voice you need to express intimacy as the expression of your soul.

This is not only about sex but having an intimate relationship to life which the crossdressing has allowed within the limits of crossdressing.

Crossdressing expresses your energy as soul so it is not an escape from reality but an escape into reality from the unreality of living unreal. The persona of you when you crossdress is real and the other is not so feels abnormal.

In my opinion this will help you decide "if" you need to make a decision and than the question will be "can you" and or "should you".

Thats when the real fun begins. Many transition late in life if the need is great enough and intimacy can make that need very great.

It is difficult to live closed off from life but many do.

If your body is preventing you from living and so being sexual as the expression of this living body "as you" than you will feel disatisfaction with sex because the intimacy will not be there.

Your body will prevent "connection" with your world.

[Angela Campbell]

I understand Lorileigh. I feel the same way. I have gone through trying to live my life as others have wanted me to knowing it was wrong for me. I have over the years accepted that I must put on an "act" of being the man everyone wants me to be. I do this for the job, and for my family. For me I also live a separate life as a woman, when I can. I am new to doing this and do not go out as much as you but it is increasing all the time. I have a whole new group of friends in my new life and I have learned to keep it separate from my "man" life. Oh yes I would love to be able to live as a woman full time, but then again I would love to drive a Bentley too. Not gonna do either one I guess. Even though my life is a compromise I still like my life and I am happy. I am not confused though. I know what I am, and who I am, and accept it all. I have struggled through this for over 50 years and have come to a point where I am happy.

[Leah Lynn]

Way to go, Girl! As if I haven't had enough confusion of late, you put a focus on some things that now really confuse me. The worst being that I want a relationship, but I'm too afraid of rejection (and the associated embarassment and humiliation) to even seek a chance at one. Talk about a Catch 22.

Leah

[Diana Bain]

Having lived with me on the inside for all these years...the male side fighting it off...I understand the direction I need to go. With the support of my wife I'll make the transition...She has said I deserve to live the rest of my life the way it was suppose to be (priceless)...HRT for sure...SRS we'll see.

[Stevie]

I understand Lorileigh. I feel the same way. I have gone through trying to live my life as others have wanted me to knowing it was wrong for me. I have over the years accepted that I must put on an "act" of being the man everyone wants me to be. I do this for the job, and for my family. For me I also live a separate life as a woman, when I can. I am new to doing this and do not go out as much as you but it is increasing all the time. I have a whole new group of friends in my new life and I have learned to keep it separate from my "man" life. Oh yes I would love to be able to live as a woman full time, but then again I would love to drive a Bentley too. Not gonna do either one I guess. Even though my life is a compromise I still like my life and I am happy. I am not confused though. I know what I am, and who I am, and accept it all. I have struggled through this for over 50 years and have come to a point where I am happy.

I was at a lost for words until I read this. I feel trapped. There are times I want to dress as a woman and others that I want to be a man. I feel society has become programmed. We accept this as normal and think nothing of it but when something changes its like a major earthquake. I have a picture in my head on how I want to look but I know no one around me would ever agree so I keep my feelings to my self. My wife know to a extent and would love to show her this side but knows the response and prefer to keep it to myself for the most part. By doing this I feel trapped

[suchacutie]

Lorileah, I very much enjoy being gender fluid and really don't know where I want my fluidity to settle (maybe I don't want it to?). But, as I look around at life it occurs to me that a lot of life is settling for the best we can do. That kind of settling could probably be cured with enough $$$, but our gendered selves certainly takes a lot more inward searching to see if we want to upset the apple cart we are currently pushing...or maybe just give it a flat tire :) if that's the best we can do right now. There is always tomorrow to look at it all from a new perspective!

[Michelle M]

DeJa vu, Lorileah

This subject has been on the surface of my thoughts for several days now, in preparation for a long talk with my teenage daughter.

Like many here, I grew up in a time and place where display of my feminine tendencies might result in severe repercussions both at home and with my peer group. I learned at an early age to "fake it" and act like a boy. Act like a man. Regardless of our orientation we were considered gay, and gay absolutely untolerated.

From there I graduated HS, went to college for a few years and got married. My wife was religious conservative, so I continued faking it for another 20+ years, as best I could, for the sake of my new family. Now I have grown children with children of their own who all identify me as completely male, albeit sometimes in pink socks. And good shoes, of course.

After 30 years of practice it feels strange to let go of the adopted mannerisms and thought patterns. Like an actor who has portrayed a character for so long that now everyone identifies with the character instead of she, herself. It's been 18 months now since I decided to slowly begin presenting as myself again. Now I am embracing my femininity, looking for common ground between the Yin of my psyche and my forsaken Yang. Trying to learn the things we "real men" would never have had any justification to explore in our youth.

That's how I came to live with myself, even though it wasn't myself. I'm sure it's a common story among us here.
Michelle

[Ann Louise]

What a beautiful thread, my heart goes out to us all. I'm one of those trapped out here on the continuum between the two traditional poles of gender. With the assistance of my gender counselor, the love of my family, the emerging protections for us under the law, and the support of you dear people I think I'll be ok. xoxo, Elfin

[Marleena]

Lorileah. My first reply sounded like a public service announcement, sheesh! The most important point is that any SO accepts you as you are. I think you've found somebody that does. You'll make the right decision I'm sure.:)

[Sam-antha]

I am living with it and have been doing so for so long. Probably if I had been younger when things became possible I would be living it truly. When changes became poossible or even talked about, I was just too old. I dunno would I have changed, I dunno...
~Samm

[Barbara Ella]

I came to who I am rather late, after living a life, and promising that in retirement our life was set in stone. Now that I now who i am, i know what I must be is not who i am. Can I live with that, time will tell. For the present, until my wife changes her position. I owe her that, so I will try to be the best I can without hurting her. I have to still learn how to live with it, but am progressing.

Barbara

[busker]

Lorileah,
There is no wrong body. It is just that we haven't learned to understand why our thoughts don't represent whats on the outside. We are hybrids like the pluot==part plum, part apricot and no amount of messing around with it will make it either one again. We are in the same boat. We are pluots in a world of apricots and plums.
Last year I saw an Australian documentary film of some children 5-8 or so who "Knew" that they should have been the other gender. They had accepting, loving parents who let them dress in boy or girl clothing as they were wont to do and play with dolls or GI Joe and at some point in the future they could make a decision about which gender they would follow. sounds great but in the intervening years they would become socialized very likely according to their "outer" self and when they made that important decision they would be likely just as unhappy as if they grew up confused. Why, because their thoughts would be a dissonance to "reality" and try as they might, they could never be a plum again. Life is so subjective that hormones and surgery cannot make a pluot into an apricot. If one accepts that they are forever a pluot, then life can likely progress in a better way. In other words, self acceptance that we are not like others and we must compensate to some degree.

There is a wonderful philosophy paper entitled "What's it like to be a bat". I've mentioned it before and here is a link to it. Here is a precis of the paper.

"The paper isn't really about the sensory world of bats; it's a critique of reductionist theories of the mind. Nagel argues that consciousness has a subjective aspect, and that understanding other mental states is difficult or impossible for those not able to experience those mental states"

and here is the lint to the paper, click on the blue text if you wish to read it. It isn't long, and it is really worth while reading.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-minds/201202/what-is-it-be-bat

[KellyJameson]

This thread has weighed heavily on my mind partly because I think the topic is extremely important and partly for my affection for you LoriLeah.

Think about the experience of connection because in my opinion that is everything.

This is not about a mental state as a woman because there is no such thing as a mental state as a woman.

The body you reside in decides how you experience life because that is what you use to connect with life.

Instead of body lets use skin color in relationship to connection to culture.

In a culture where the dominant skin color is white the person with the skin color of black will have a completely different connection to that culture because of their skin color than a person who has white skin and it is this connection that fundamentally shapes them into who they are.

There is no difference between people who are white or black because of their skin color but because of their relationship to the culture as dominant skin color along with the power that being dominant gives it.

Take that connection and multiply it by several hundred fold and that is the connection I'm talking about between a man and a woman sexually

It is your experiencing of the man as a woman that creates connection because you can express who you are through that body.

Nothing to do with mental states. You have changed the vessel so changed the experiencing so changed the connection.

You change your body to express who you are and you change your body to experience who others are in ways only possible after you make the change.

Transsexuality is all about connection, not having the mental state of a woman.

You are not trying to become something else but removing that which blocks you from being what you already are.

I changed to have the connection that my body was preventing me from having with my environment and to eliminate the dissonance I experienced between body and mind that left me feeling abnormal, different and uneasy.

Not to become a woman or have the mental state of a woman.

If you cannot connect with yourself or others than this is what you want to focus on in my opinion.