Developing womanhood and Catch-22.

[vini]

Hi,

I went through all the old pages, all 240+ of them, and I haven’t seen this topic discussed except by ‘aprilannette’, sort of, and just one time. There is some discussion about compromise on dressing for the sake of the family, but none on womanhood. I must have opened about one/third of them. It took awhile. If I missed it, I’m sorry.

I’m trying to become ‘feminine’ from the inside out, not from the outside in. I hope to reach the point where changing my appearance to female is seen as naturally appropriate OR even superfluous. I’ve been working on this for several years with mixed success. It has led me to become a nurse, among other things.

Health reasons have required me to give up my job (12-hour night shifts on the surgical floor). I am now trying to develop my ‘womanhood’ via being a homemaker and housewife.

As I strive towards ‘womanhood’ (selfless, domestic, all that stereotypical wife stuff, etc.), I more and more want to make my spouse happy, not that I didn’t make her happy before.

However, what would make her happy is someone who looks and acts like a husband and a male. (She does likes me doing the housework. Ha. We shared it before.)

I’m not saying that males can’t be domestic etc., I’m just trying to use it help me become a woman.

Here’s the thing.
By becoming a wife, I want to make my spouse happy.
Making my spouse happy requires me to give up/limit my becoming a woman.
Limiting becoming a woman is limiting my self-actualization.

Now life is short, you only have one chance, and there are no do-overs, I don’t think.

So, anyone else been here? Knowing all the above, does limiting my self-acualization in becoming a woman, to make my spouse happy, ACTUALLY fulfill my self-actualization in becoming a wife by making my spouse happy?

Like I said, Catch-22. Feel free to PM me if you wish.

Aside: Of course, as I have tried to become more womanlike, I have just become more humanlike. This is an old story. Women’s liberation is just human liberation. I’m a card-carrying member of NOW and everything.

vini-

[Julie York]

Write a list of what things indicate to you a 'womanly' quality. Then see if there are any that don't involve imagery (clothing nails etc) or exaggerated male emotions (bursting into tears when you see puppies). Those are the ones you could use.

And good luck with that one! I can't think of ONE!

[Michelle Hart]

Is'nt becoming a wife more a choice of position or status than a selection of wardrobe?


What do wives do......the care for their husbands. I would think if you can manage that your almost there.

[AngGG]

Here’s the thing.
By becoming a wife, I want to make my spouse happy.
Making my spouse happy requires me to give up/limit my becoming a woman.
Limiting becoming a woman is limiting my self-actualization.

So, anyone else been here? Knowing all the above, does limiting my self-acualization in becoming a woman, to make my spouse happy, ACTUALLY fulfill my self-actualization in becoming a wife by making my spouse happy?

Aside: Of course, as I have tried to become more womanlike, I have just become more humanlike.

vini-

Hey vini

Where to begin. There are some parts of your post that I disagree with, some that I agree with, and some that I would want more info on.

I agree with you when you say we only have one go-around. If we live our lives to please others and not yourself then you are really cheating yourself. You die with the sense of "if only I had ___, I wish I had the courage to___"
Regrets can be a heavy burden.

Did your wife know about all this when she said "I do"? Is she ok with everything you want? Does she want the same things? I ask because she only has one go-around also. You say that she would be happy if you looked and acted male so it would be my guess that she needs some male time also.

I like what you said about being more humanlike. I don't think being male or female should limit the amount of basic human kindness, empathy or caring (to name a few traits) a person feels. I know that in my case if my sweetie lost some of the traits that I love, to become more of what society considers "male", I would lose some of the person that I fell in love with to begin with. But I am not going to lie and say that I could accept having to live with michelle 24/7. I would have to re-evaluate things at that point. Although I accept and love the wo/man I married, I still married a man and need that role to be fufilled also.

Thats my .02 for what its worth:)

[vini]

Julie York, About imagery;

Yes, I envy and admirer the beauty, but I’ve been around the block too many times to just care about lipstick. Besides my wife is my major role model and she is not a very girly girl. No heels, no stockings, nothing. She hates all that stuff. I’m just lucky that she doesn’t need any of it. She was stunningly beautiful when I met her 17 years ago, but now, after 15 years of marriage, she is merely stunningly beautiful.

Here is " . . . a list of what things indicate to me a 'womanly' quality . . ."

For attractive lips, speak words of kindness.

For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people.

For a slim figure, share your food with the hungry.

For beautiful hair, let a child run his/her fingers through it once a day.

For poise, walk with the knowledge that you never walk alone.

People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed, and redeemed; never throw out anyone.

Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms.

As you grow older, you will discover that you have two hands; one for helping yourself, and the other for helping others.

If you share this with another woman, something good will happen . . .you will boost another woman's self esteem, and she will know that you care about her.

These were Audrey Hepburn’s ‘beauty tips’.

To Michelle Hart,

<What do wives do...the care for their husbands. I would think if you could manage that you’re almost there. >

I’m working on it.

To AngGG

<I agree with you when you say we only have one go-around. If we live our lives to please others and not yourself then you are really cheating yourself. You die with the sense of "if only I had ___, I wish I had the courage to___"
Regrets can be a heavy burden.>

Of course, you’re right. I’ve never regretted anything I’ve done. I’ve made some mistake but I don’t regret them. What I do find I regret, are the things I HAVEN"T done. Fortunately, there aren’t many. I hope to keep it that way. The last thing I want to have are regrets on my deathbed.

<Did your wife know about all this when she said, "I do"? Is she ok with everything you want? Does she want the same things? I ask because she only has one go-around also. >

When we were dated, I told her I had in the past wanted to be a woman, but I was past it. It turns out I was wrong.

<You say that she would be happy if you looked and acted male>

Actually, upon rereading this statement I realize it is incorrect. My wife DOSEN’T want me to be a male and a husband. What she wants is for me to NOT be a woman. She doesn’t take much pleasure in my being male or her own femaleness. She is pretty asexual. I don’t mean to imply that we don’t have a solid partnership or that we don’t have feelings for each other. She buys me flowers for various occasions and I seem to buy her flowers without any occasions. We do love each other.

<I like what you said about being more humanlike. I don't think being male or female should limit the amount of basic human kindness, empathy or caring (to name a few traits) a person feels.

Yes, see Audrey Hepburn’s ‘beauty tips’, above.

<But I am not going to lie and say that I could accept having to live with michelle 24/7. I would have to re-evaluate things at that point. >

Spouse is waiting for me to decide/proceed before she evaluates her response. Her primary concern is the well being of our son. She says that if I were truly a woman, that would be mine as well.

<Wo/man> I like that

<That’s my .02 for what its worth>\

It is worth a lot, thank you.

(Sometimes I miss the days when all it took to make me feel at peace with myself was wearing panties.)

[Julie York]

Hmm.
So you want to be Jesus basically?


Oh well. Good luck.

:thumbsup:

[celeste26]

Actually the attitude is one of valueing relationships instead of needing to use the things in your life. In a sense 'using the clothes' to become a woman is a very male attitude. Orient your whole life into being there for your SO, feeling they are the pinnacle of your day, their feelings are more important than yours so arraign everything for them. Identify your self as the SO of your spouse instead of separately. Think more about how I can help out my SO's career, etc.

These are the ultimate feminine characteristics. I know they sound so archaic and old fashioned but hey that seems to be what you want.

[Kierci]

I think you described many of the ladies that have come out to their S/O on this one.

[vini]

to: Julie York <So you want to be Jesus basically?>
Jessica Christ actually. (Its a pleasure to read your posts.)

To: celeste26 <These are the ultimate feminine characteristics. I know they sound so archaic and old fashioned but hey that seems to be what you want.>
Yes, I guess I'm just an old fashioned girl. The funny thing is back in the dark ages, before the internet, I felt more like a dyke. Really.

To: Jennyaz <I think you described many of the ladies that have come out to their S/O on this one.>
Thank you for listening.

Yours,
vini-

[Kim E]

<You say that she would be happy if you looked and acted male>

Actually, upon rereading this statement I realize it is incorrect. My wife DOSEN’T want me to be a male and a husband. What she wants is for me to NOT be a woman. She doesn’t take much pleasure in my being male or her own femaleness. She is pretty asexual. I don’t mean to imply that we don’t have a solid partnership or that we don’t have feelings for each other.



Spouse is waiting for me to decide/proceed before she evaluates her response. Her primary concern is the well being of our son. She says that if I were truly a woman, that would be mine as well.

Hi Vini ~
BTW, welcome to the forum, glad you are here. I'm just a bit confused by a couple things in your post. Sorry, but sometimes I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Maybe you could explain, what you mean, I've highlighted the parts.
Thanks much.

Kim

[Kimberly]

Becoming a woman isn't through the use of society-proscribed, stereotypical actions.

Expressing who you are without borders or boundries, and what feels womanly to YOU should be what guides you foward!

This being the case, I am a woman most of the time: strictly monogomous (fall in love way too easily,) intuition when it comes to another's emotions etc.

Gender expression is just how you project to the world on the outside - beware of labels.

xx

[DonnaT]

I'm sorry Vini, but you can not become a woman, an no advice you may be given here will help you become a woman.

That may seem to be a mean statement, but it is the truth.

Being a woman, or acheiving womanhood, buy a male, is something only some M2F transsexuals can achieve.

You can do all the things you think a woman may do, but there are plenty of women who do not do those things, yet they are still women. And not doing the things you think characterize what a woman is does not make them any less a woman.

Additionally, Audrey Hepburn aside, I'm not sure exactly what you think you must do to be a woman, but I bet many men do those things and yet remain men. Doing them does not make them any less a man.

[vini]

Oh so much to say, and I don't know exactly why either.

Kim E-
<I'm just a bit confused by a couple things in your post.>
Truthfully, I guess I'm not suprised as I'm often confused about all this myself. Re: your highlighted lines: Spouse has no attraction towards females or especially me as a Wo/Man. She also hasn't any attraction towards males or me as a man for sometime anymore either.

<She says that if I were truly a woman, that would be mine as well.>
Spouse is refering to a woman's supposed maternal instincts.

Kimberly-
<Expressing who you are without borders or boundries, and what feels womanly to YOU should be what guides you foward!>
Yes, of course. I feel female at times, and at times I don't. I feel male at times and at times I don't. I feel gender. (My wife doesen't. Perhaps most people don't.) The thing is I LIKE feeling female. I want to feel it more. Hence the attempt via 'society-proscribed, stereotypical actions'.

DonnaT-
<I'm sorry Vini, but you can not become a woman, . . (Basically, your whole thoughtful post). . . Doing them does not make them any less a man.>

Yes, I know. I will never have my first period, or any period for that matter. I will never be 'late'. I will never know what it feels like to have a man's hands all over me (Actually, scatch that last one.). I will never get pregnant. I don't swoon over 'hunks'. I don't go 'Goo-goo ga-ga' over baby clothes. (Althrough my shrink said there are plenty of woman who aren't crazy about motherhood, including herself.) Etcertera, etcertera. (I do have a developing appreciation for shoes however.)

One of the main reasons I didn't pursue transition when I was was younger was because I knew that a little plastic surgery and biochemistry does not a woman make. I wasn't a TS (That took a while to figure out) and I didn't want to be an imitation female. That wasn't good enough.

Well you know what? After 50 or so years, if that's as close as I can get, it'll have to do. I feel like I don't want to spend my entire 'life looking in from the outside'. This comes under the heading of 'Having no regrets'.

Now on the principal that; 'If it walks like a duck, flaps like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.' Or to put it anotherway: If stevedore named Achibald Macleach, from Liverpool England, can turn himself into Cary Grant. Why can't I become a female version of myself?

If transman are valid, why not transWOMAN?

I hope this wasn't to long. I also don't exactly know what I want from posting here either. Again, so much to say, and I don't know exactly why either.

I thank you all for your intrest,
vini