Arousal and Confusion

[SarahMarie42]

I'll try to keep this short. In the past and very occasionally in the present, I had experienced arousal while in the midst of crossgender activity -- I had been aroused at the thought of myself as a woman. This led me, for awhile, to believe that I was simply a fetishist, that my every feminine desire must somehow stem from a sexual fetish, and that it would be offensive, even a crime, for me to consider myself transgender if I were just seeking sexual kicks. However, I gradually came to realize that, in categorizing my desires as exclusively fetishistic, I was denying other, entirely non-sexual transgender desires as well -- and also denying that I would have preferred to have not been aroused by any of this activity -- that it kept me from feeling like a normal girl. In all honesty, my fantasies and daydreams were not all sexual, but only occasionally sexual. Many of my fantasies simply involved living the day-to-day life of a woman, or even (yes :|) experiencing motherhood, and offered me no sexual thrill whatsoever. They offered instead tranquility and deep contentment.

Do these past patterns of arousal categorize me as a simple fetishist, or are they permissible in a larger framework? They confuse me, and I wish they had never occurred -.-

I come here asking you (who have mostly figured yourselves out) for guidance, as I am still struggling to figure myself out.

[sandra-leigh]

Some (not many) of the TS's here do indicate that it was never arousing for them. Some of the TS's indicate that there was a period during which there was some arousal and that they now attribute it to confusion and repression. Most of the TS's here have not (that I personally recall) said anything on the matter. And the rest say, "Yes, I did go through that phase but later it stopped mattering to me, and that was part of the process of my coming to understand myself."

Personally, my teen crossdressing period had an intellectual reason -- or so I told myself -- but I enjoyed the arousal. Some days I dressed for the intellectual reasons, other days it was for the arousal. But back then I never thought of myself as being female, even as I wondered why the other males were so odd. Once past my teens, the few times when I consciously "crossdressed" were usually about arousal, linked to panties or pantyhose. But in the period in my late 30s to early 40s where I was "trying on" my wife's blouses, tops, skirts, dresses, bras, I wasn't consciously cross-dressing, I was "modeling" the clothes to understand them better, to understand the fits.. That lasted until I was 43 and suddenly realized that I wanted to actually wear the clothes myself. After that, there would sometimes be episodes where picturing some cross-dressing I was planning would be arousing... and then the actual doing of the cross-dressing wasn't. In time the actual doing became more and more important to me, and I started thinking more about the situation. And, importantly, I started allowing myself to feel the going out and reactions and what it meant to me inside.

I guess it would be fair to put the approximation that as during the times that I was intellectually / mentally "wearing women's clothes", the taboo / "perversion" was sexually exciting, but when I was engaged in actual life as a cross-dresser / transgender, it was not (often) sexually exciting, it was "what I had to do to feel better or at peace with myself."

Possibly bad analogy: I (even now) read erotic stories, including some about "erotic encounters", along the lines of meeting / visiting someone and sexual passion develops outside of (or leading to) a relationship. And as I read, those stories can be exciting / arousing in my imagination. But in real life, I have (not often to be honest) been in circumstances where it was clear that sexual activity could be forthcoming outside a relationship -- and in real life (except for the very first time), I turned it down without even a little excitement, more "Get me out of here!!"

Ideas can be much more arousing than real life.

But I'm still going to continue reading those stories and I'm not going to be ashamed of that. And I know better than to think that my librarian SO might ever be a "naughty librarian".

[SarahMarie42]

I feel similarly, actually.

I occasionally experienced arousal, but, early on and still to this day, strongly desired femininity and felt nothing but contentment when I imagined its achievement.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i felt this since i was 10 years old...and it really has only mitigated and never stopped totally ...hrt and transition gives me relief from it but never really elimated some little bit of arousal at strange times or over strange thoughts...

when i say felt it, i mean all the time...this also included me putting myself in the position of being the female in literally every sexual encounter i every had..i believed this was a fantasy.....i desperately "wished" i was a girl...i wondered why life was so unfair and my 50/50 shot of being a girl was lost...

i also thought it meant that it was not possible that i was transsexual...

i have no idea why...lots of ts women have this "issue" and meeting some of them was one of the big moments in my life (i met them in group therapy when one of them guffawed when i expressed that this was how i "knew" i couldn't be ts even though i felt like i needed to transition, after which we talked about it with the group)

it has nothing to do with whether you are transsexual or not.

[kimdl93]

You're a young adult. As such, sexual arousal is something that happens. I think I read somewhere that a male in his early 20s thinks about sex every few minutes. This leads me to believe that many of us experience a time when sex and CDing are coincidental. We associate CDing with sex, but it's not necessarily a cause and effect relationship.

[Brooke Smith]

Been there done that....As others have told you,arousal and confusion is perfectly normal for a transgendered person. It says nothing about who you are or your underlying motivations. From what you've said,it is a clue that you certainly belong somewhere on the transgender spectrum.

Keep in mind the question,which seems to be the consensus here,regardless of how you arrive at the conclusion. Are you a woman or not? If you answer yes,you are a transsexual. If you answer no,you are not. Not that being one way or another diminishes or validates you as a person.

[Wildaboutheels]

Without MALE orgasms, Humanity ends. Without Male erections, NO orgasms. The math is supremely easy.

A MAN'S vision is Mother Nature's simple and elegant solution to this "problem" and it obviously works very well. ONLY men need Big Os for Humanity to survive but for women Os are simply icing on the cake.

I know very few men silly enough to claim that they have "full control" of their "equipment" and that they can simply raise and lower at will. Our ANIMAL instinct - tens of thousands of years of Evolution - control our equipment and often our brains. [regardless of whether we believe we have full contol] Men don't control their equipment... any more than FEmales control theirs. Certainly no one here is silly enough to believe that women don't have their own "performance" anxiety? Of course their problem is much easier and cheaper to overcome...

Body parts are ALL most men need to see to "get ready" Don't expect that to change any time soon until men are able also capable of becoming pregnant. All of the various "men's magazines" out there are a testament to this, as well as porn. May as well throw in hookers too. Hookers dress to SHOW OFF BODY PARTS. Which is all that is necessary to "trigger" most men.

All of this is very easy to confirm with even the quickest of glances around this very Forum.

[Lacyfem]

Being bisexual and a crossdresser I still find myself looking at great women all the time and admire their cloths, makeup & think because I'm still a man I have sexual thoughts that run through my mind also. Thus when I dress I get aroused thinking of someone looking at me in this same manner. Pretty simple but it's the way I think. Now if I truely wanted to be a transgender it might be different.

[LeaP]

[Male blah blah blah ... Snipped]

All of this is very easy to confirm with even the quickest of glances around this very Forum.

All true enough, but perhaps not relevant, or always relevant. Some of us, me included, didn't experience a sexual component to dressing. So the "can't help it, no control" thinking, which IS valid (to a point) in other contexts, doesn't necessarily apply.

SarahMarie - re-read Kaitlyn's last line and let it sink in. What you are and how it has manifested throughout your life are two different things.

[outhiking]

I do feel arousal often when I dress up. But, I'm guessing that many GG's also get aroused when they dress sexy or wear lingerie. I often wish that there was no arousal, but it is what it is and I've stopped worrying over it. Good luck to you on your journey.

[Trishpdxcd2]

For me I embrace the arousal, it goes hand in hand with my dressing. Indeed, it is probably the reason I dress. But that probably separates me from a true transgender though it is all labels in the end. I think if it as sexuality, a line with homesexuality and heterosexuality at the opposite ends of the line. Most of us are not at either end and gender is a bit the same. At times I fantasize about being a woman but really happy with my boy side. For some that is a consuming feeling and I wouldn't let the arousal part of that interfere with that.

[Rianna Humble]

Male orgasms are not really germane to an MtF transsexual.

"This particular forum" as you put it is the Transsexual Forum, what relevance have your thoughts about reproduction to transsexuality?

[SarahMarie42]

Yeah, that wasn't exactly my question, though I appreciate the attempt at input, and recognize that there was no ill intent involved.

I'm just confused as to what it all means -.-

Kaitlyn, Lea, and Sandra have all helped so far (a great deal), but I'm still curious as to all of your experiences (for those who are willing to share), and what it might mean.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Not ONCE was I sexually aroused by wearing woman's clothing. Being a woman is who I was and am. That would be like a guy saying he gets sexually aroused by wearing John Doe everyday men's wear. Not going to happen unless it's a fetish.

[SarahMarie42]

I'm sorry, it's probably an insult for me to even wonder about it. I suppose I'm just some stupid pervert. -.-

[Kaitlyn Michele]

thats our dear friend traci, don't mind her...

sarah, what you are experiencing is normal and its common....its also normal and common to worry about what it may mean...my experience, and the experience of others is that it doesn't really mean anything.
this took many years for me to figure out and accept...

[LeaP]

I'm sorry, it's probably an insult for me to even wonder about it. I suppose I'm just some stupid pervert. -.-

There's no need to apologize, it's not an insult, and you're not (necessarily) a pervert. You are certainly not a pervert on the basis of getting aroused from dressing in and of itself. Look, despite my answer and Traci's answer, it's quite common for people to be aroused in the way you describe. It does not mean that they may not also be transsexual. First, it's perfectly possible to be a perverted transsexual. Just as it's possible to be psychotic or any number of other things ... Good things too! Second, it's easy to get your own sexuality twisted in a knot when you haven't figured out who you are and you're being driven by testosterone besides. You might also compare the situation that exists with depression among transsexuals. The stories about transsexuals who were deeply depressed before transition and completely cured of depression and off antidepressants after transition, are legion. When you don't know what is going on and you are living in denial and repression, things have a way of coming to the surface in unexpected ways.

The arousal you were describing - and the conflict you feel about it – is just one piece of information. It may or may not be helpful in helping you figure out who you are. But don't let it sidetrack you too much.

[Scotty]

Human chemistry, nothing more.
I've watched the news a lot of late, seems everything is based on human chemistry. Nothing to be ashamed about.
You know, if you've had the signs all of your life it's more than just a fetish.

When I went on T blockers the arousal stoppped, life was so simple, focus on me.
Time to go back on T-blockers.

[sandra-leigh]

Male orgasms are not really germane to an MtF transsexual.

They are germaine to someone trying to figure out if they are transsexual or not. Sarah is dealing with the "common wisdom" that "No true MTF transsexual can ever have (or have had) male arousal" (which, in my opinion is a "No true Scotsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)" argument).

[KellyJameson]

The more you post the more I think you are experiencing gender dysphoria.

Step back and look at how you are conflicted about so many things. This is the clash between the subconscious identity that you have but are not aware of because you have not brought it up into being able to consciously identify it so this identity stays unknown and split off from you.

Simply treat this has the female inside you making herself known against that part of you which is your conscious intellect that still does not know her.

Think of her has a friend that you once knew very well but lost from your forgotten past.

Become comfortable with the concept that you are carrying two identities inside you as two people and each is battling the other for supremacy.

You are in conflict with your subconscious and your subconscious is your identity so it feels like you are "possessed" by someone inside you controlling parts of your life.

This subconscious female identity will screw with your sexuality because your subconscious will be seeking a resolution by trying to force the external world to reflect the known internal world of her as "identity" and this is her trying to be born.

Your sexuality becomes distorted because "she" will use sex to fix the problem by having connection with the image of female perfection that you will consciously search for but never find and "she" will try to create this perfection with you or other females.

Basically "she" is using sex instead of sex reassignment surgery to own what "she" needs to fix the problem that your subconscious is struggling with.

It also does not end with sex but anyway she can use other females to support subconscious identity.

Sexual appetite needs to be satisfied because it is an urge of the body and this gets twisted into the gender dysphoria as female subconscious identity so you become excited not by the eroticised female image but the female image as "you"

There is a simple way to confirm this the next time you look at an image that arouses you.

Imagine that what you are aroused by is a part of you and this will take you right into your subconscious.

Ask yourself what is more arousing. Watching the sex act between people or possesssing the parts of the female anatomy you want for yourself.

Try identifying with being the female and not the male and search for how this makes you feel conflicted and if so why?

You can use pornography to understand aspects of gender dysphoria if you step back and watch yourself watching because your subconscious identity will affect how you experience pornography by how your subconscious super imposes itself on the female image so your subconscious will identify with the female image.

When identity is not in conflict the sex act has a different erotic attraction than for those experiencing gender dysphoria but it is very subtle and you will only see it afterward.

Are you extremely critical of female anatomy where you feel frustration because it is never "perfect enough" ?

If so see if this is really the expression of not feeling "perfect" with your own body.

In my opinion gender dysphoria distorts sexuality because the subconscious female identity tries to use it for her own purposes just like she will use everything for her own purposes to quell the terror of not being brought out into the world so not being "real" which is experienced as possible insanity

I see many paralles between schizophrenia and gender dysphoria and thought that I actually suffered from schizophrenia because it felt like there was someone else living inside me but I never heard the physical voices but always lived with the experience of two "wills" exerting their influence over one body and life.

I really think you are going through this same experience because I see this intense conflict between two wills inside one body and also because you are trying to intellectualize your way out of the problem.

You can use your intelligence to understand it but first you must except and see that there are two people inside one brain which really is just one person and it really is you using your will to suppress your "buried self" "rejected self" "unknown self"

Gender dysphoria is a bit like letting the genie out of the bottle, your mind knows once it faces the truth there is no going back while you question if it is real and if you have it.

All of this harsh judgement you have for yourself is because you want her to be born and to exist because you want the truth so you are trying to "live a truth" that supports the reality of gender dysphoria and it is needing gender dysphoria to be the answer and fearing it is not that makes me think it you have it.

You have that distinctive back and forth relationship with the "concept" of gender dysphoria.

Insanity is walking your whole life alone across a desert and gender dysphoria as an answer is that mirage of palm trees and water that offers promise and salvation but you fear it could disappear if you get to close.

Your subconscious is desperate for a resolution to be free from a suffering that seems inescapable so you cling onto anything that offers hope while fearing that nothing offers hope.

[Michelle03]

Kelly, I have no idea how you have this ability to put things into words the way you do. Its great though. A lot of help for a lot of people.

[Kate T]

Sarah

It is my understanding that what you are experiencing is not uncommon in MTF transexuals and certainly as others have said does not mean that you are "just a fetishist".

As much as the work and interpretation is probably oversimplified and has been unfortunately used to the detriment of the transgender community, Blanchards Autogynephilia theory (try looking up AGP on these forums and the web) has one outstanding quality that warrants it's examination by anyone concerned about transexualism, that is that it destigmatises sexual arousal due to dressing in transexuals and accounts for it within a broad theory and framework of the gender and sexual identity of Transexual individuals.

[Badtranny]

It's as simple as this; There is no one thing that includes or excludes you from the family of transsexuals. I can't speak to the 'arousal from panties' issue but I can absolutely attest to the power of testosterone. Before I had the 'T' under control I was totally capable of having sex with a woman even though that is far from my preference. I was already openly gay so it was not a matter of being closeted or societal pressure, it was 100% chemistry. Or geometry if you want to consider the angle of the dangle. The fact is, male levels of testosterone were responsible for my sexual attraction to women AND men when I would have picked a man first if given a choice. After a few months on blockers, sex with women became nothing but an unpleasant memory.

Testosterone has a way of subverting a normal sex drive into some freaky stuff, and if you have a high sex drive normally, than who knows how the big T will manifest itself?

[SarahMarie42]

Oh, I have never felt arousal from panties. . .

[Rianna Humble]

I'm sorry Adina,

You couldn't be much more wrong about Blanchard if you tried.

Blanchard invented a mental illness to describe why people are transsexual that he called "Autogynephilia". He defines his made-up illness as
a man’s paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman
One of the key concepts in this model is the premise that everyone who is gender variant can be categorized based on one of two "male" sexual interests: homosexuality or paraphilia.

His persistent use of the term "paraphilia" shows how unhelpful his invented diagnosis is because that is the term adopted by DSM III as a more polite way of saying "sexual deviancy" and normally involving:

non human objects
the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner
children or other non-consenting persons


So, far from destigmatising sexual arousal by a transsexual, he classifies it as a mental illness of sexual deviancy.

Fortunately, apart from on these forums, Blanchard has an extremely limited audience for his attempts to class us as perverts.

[Kate T]

I apologise Rianna

I will admit to not having read Blanchards original theory. What I know and understand comes second hand and so must be questioned.

I agree completely that the classification of autogynephilia as a paraphilia is indeed stigmatising. However surely the term itself (i.e. love of oneself as a woman) need not be stigmatising? It's existence as an arousal phenomenon must surely be acknowledged as replies even within this thread would indicate. I would argue, poorly, that acknowledgement of the existence of autogynephilia as an explanation of the observed behaviour of some transexuals and non fetish CD's, is important in providing an inclusive framework for describing sex, sexuality and gender identity particularly in those who are CD / TG / TS?

[Rianna Humble]

The latest research that I have seen indicates that there may be as many as forty people world-wide who support Dr Blanchard's stigmatisation of MtF transsexuals as either repressed homosexuals or sexual deviants.

Given the definition set out by the person who invented the term, I could not support its application to any transsexual.

I do not doubt that many people (TS or not) can experience transient sexual arousal from wearing some items of clothing. Indeed there is a whole industry around creating clothing to for cisgendered people to that very end.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

even the word autogynephilia has a stigma because of blanchards "work"...

feeling arousal around cross gender feelings is totally normal for transsexuals, so is NOT feeling arousal...gosh i guess that means what makes you tingly is different for different people...what a shock!!!
...arousal is more common than generally discussed because people don't admit it... in the past, many people would preclude somebody that felt this arousal from a ts "diagnosis", which is part of the reason its not talked about much..

A good experienced TS oriented therapist will know this and can discuss it with you ...

[Emily_Safford]

I wrestle with this from time to time. Some days...most days I dress myself they way I am and do my house work with no sexual effects. but every once in a while dressing in particular when its dressing to be "more" beautiful I do get aroused. I have the "luxury" of a GG walking this path with me, and I can tell you she does get aroused when dressing at times...lucky for me she's a lesbian ~.^

someone said it best above, we have to deal with two identities in one space. for my inner girl is "home" but the biological boy isn't giving up without a fight. does make things more and more confusing at times.

I think I'm not making much sense right now so I'll get off the soap box for a bit.

Emi ~.^

[Memzy]

...Getting back on track.

In my expert Dr. Memzy opinion. [bahaha]

I believe arousal is very common. I mean lets face the facts. If you're born a genetic male, this means you most likely have high testosterone levels. [unless of course you're on T blockers/HRT etc] Testosterone also effects libido. Given the way society runs, it's been imprinted into the brain that women's clothing is sexy. I think it's some sort of subconscious work that causes arousal when putting on women's clothing, regardless if you intentionally find it arousing or not.

It's almost like the brain is going; "Hey, that's women's clothing. Is it sexy time?" in response you're body is replying back with; "Why yes it is."

This probably made no sense, so I'm going to stop now. :D

[SarahMarie42]

That's kinda what I was thinking too, but, even if it is a somewhat familiar hypothesis, seeing you put it forward so playfully really lifted my spirits xD

Thanks n.n

[Memzy]

No probbies! I'm glad I could help ^, ,^

[Serana]

Being aroused by the thought of/being in female clothing is perfectly normal if you ask me. I also see Traci's point too, as some people DON'T feel those strange feelings and some DO. (BTW, Traci's answer is how TRACI sees it. She is entitled to her opinion as is everyone else, after all. It was Traci's feelings of how they are related, and not meant as an insult. And in a funny way, I'm somewhat poised to agree with her XD, and her comment made me laugh quite loudly that even my housemate was worried).

I had this happen to me once, when I was wearing female clothing for the first time on my own, when I was a bit more self-aware, and I took the clothes off, put them away and never thought of it again for about two years. I spent time thinking about it, and the feeling of being in the wrong body never went away.

I would contribute it to something like "freedom" and being able to be yourself, and how that can have an arousing feeling to live life as you want to. People can get arousal over lots of different things after all, male AND female. It's all biological and psychological. It doesn't mean you are wrong about how you feel about yourself and nor should you feel bad about being aroused. Arousal; at the end of the day, is one of the most basic feelings, and yet on of the most complex when we try to break it down. There's nothing wrong with arousal at all, just because it relates to a goal something you feel strongly about, doesn't mean that goal is wrong.

Like for instance, the idea of being able to be free, was, and IS arousing for me (in the sense of being able to have sex as I want to be able to, anyway). However, that doesn't mean I'm wrong about what I'm going through and what I'm doing. And if you feel that what you want to do is 100% right, then you ARE 100% right about what you want to be. Trying to compare arousal to a personal goal/passion to achieve something could be something to do with the dopamine effect. If it makes you feel good, it makes you feel good; simple as that. HOW good it makes you feel is all to do with you.

Now, I'm quite a perverse, and if you think you're wrong for being perverse, then that's cool, but being perverse can also be absolutely fine. (Though I'm pretty sure if you want advice about that you can prod me through a PM and I can offer some advice etc.). Besides, that can lead on in the future to a very good sex life, and helps you keep an open mind to most things. :D I found some of the most open minded people I met were all fetishists in one way or another. So I don't think it's bad at all.

Ah, and let's not jump down Traci's throat for having an opinion, it's not exactly what any thread needs. If you disagree with someone, then let it be disagreeing for the sake of discussion, not for the sake of argument. It's what derails the majority of threads on any forum after all.

As to your comment under mine Traci, I actually and tipped to agree about that, but I think that would definitely need its own discussion thread, because I feel like I've seen that first hand happy to myself here, but it's not for this thread.

Anyway, in tl;dr, arousal is NOT a bad thing. So long as it's in within the laws that govern us anyway. If something arouses you, then think on it some more, and try to think about WHY it arouses you some more.

It sounds that perhaps in some cases you're maybe mistaking that deep-seated contentment with being arousal. Which, is something easy to mix up, as the two (in my opinion) can be very similar.


And Memzy, you're definitely right there's a normal libido level which makes this a more common occurence and I think it's what can confuse a lot of contentment and arousal as one in teh same thing. As I've been on oestrogen longer, I have learned to distinguish the two better, but I very commonly became aroused by things that made me feel very deep contentment or satisfaction for something that might happen, or something totally unrelated to being TS. It's just one of those things, that eventually, you come to understand if you follow the path of T-blockers and even more so when you take oestrogen, if you follow that path, anyway. That's your decision after all :)

[SarahMarie42]

Serana. . . that's when I feel it too x[

I feel it when I feel like I can be free. Like I can finally have what I want. Never in isolation from that.

[kellycan27]

My first ever sexual experience was when I was 15 and "dressed". I had a part time summer job where the owner of the business and I worked nights by ourselves . He allowed me to dress up and be a girl.. And he " educated" me about sex between boys and girls. It got to the point where I associated sex with dressing because it only happened when I was dressed as a girl in the only place I could freely dress as one. When I arrived at work and began to dress I would become aroused because I knew there was going to be sex. Kind of like a Pavlov's Dogs type thing I guess lol
Now getting dressed is just a simple act of putting on my clothes and no more arousing than throwing in a load of laundry. Wearing sexy lingerie for my SO is still arousing because of the promise and reward of sex.

[bimini1]

I think alot of us get caught up in this. I say embrace your sexuality. Unless you are asexual, we are sexual beings. I don't feel that if you are TS you could still become aroused by cross gender presentation. Others feel strongly that is not the case. You have to figure it out for you.

Interestingly enough, for me I think it's the testosterone in the first place that fuels the crossgender behavior.

[SarahMarie42]

I've actually sorted this part of it out xD

So. . .


Rianna, dear, when you next pass through the read to give it a once over in your official duties as moderator (which you perform admirably :]), would you please lock this bad boy up?

I don't want any more haze surrounding something I've already figured out xD


Thank you everyone for providing your opinions! It's been helpful, whether contrary or not, in giving me things to consider. :]

[Rianna Humble]

Thread closed at OP request