Don't Be One

[Shananigans]

I feel as though the issue of whether women CD or not has been hammered out to death on this forum. (This is concerning GGs who buy things like jeans...not FTMs). So, needless to say, we're all pretty split on this issue. (Well, "split" if you discredit how the GGs feel on the issue...where it seems like all of us feel like we aren't crossdressing). So, since we are all "split," I propose a different discussion.

I have sympathy for men that feel like the men's department is a bit creatively challenged. I more or less agree that it sucks, but I never quite understood why the solution for this problem was to lament/finger point at GGs. After all, most of us aren't designing your clothes...or, even shopping in your department. I never quite understood the purpose of how this particular method of retribution would accomplish anything for the men in question. But, I do understand basic economics...and, so I wanted to propose a different method to those who just feel as though they are lacking in wardrobe variety...

The first argument is that women CD all of the time and it's downright sexist for men not to be allowed to CD. In my experience in the humble state of Alabama, our culture is becoming politically correct to almost a state of fear in offending anyone...it seems as though there are quite a number of court cases being fought and won on the basis that people should be allowed to be who they want to be. Most people I know wouldn't dare say a word to someone's face that would marginalized them...but, everyone seems to despise everyone once enough people are out of ear shot. But, this is how changes in culture have been made. Women wanted to be seen as equal and not as property/sex objects, so we changed our garb to be taken seriously. It was quite a scandal at the time, and many women had very unfair things said about them...but, they kept on...and, eventually won the right to not have to wear a skirt or hide their ankles without hearing a chorus of clicking tongues in the background. It happened so long ago that nearly all women in modern nations do not even question slacks. It's almost quite confusing when you get an angry male in a skirt (and, sometimes prosthetics) yelling at you that you TOO are crossdressing if you wear pants. I often find myself asking, "We'll, what do you want us to do about it?" And, most women have other wars to fight, so we leave it up for you all to figure out...until it comes up again, I suppose.

It seems quite obvious, but hiding behind a computer and ranting to other crossdressers isn't going to cause much of a cultural change. Everyone else has historically put the problem in the face of the community. The transsexual community is doing a phenomenal job at spreading the message of what it means to feel transgendered...but, it seems like most CDs have stayed firmly in the closet.

What is worse is that there is the argument to change male fashion, but most here buy female-targeted clothing items quietly and only make the passing snide remarks to GGs (who again usually have very little to do with your fashion industry).

So, if I were a clothing designer (or clothing store), I would see business is booming for female fashion. Should I worry much about the MTF TS population?...Heck no, they're identified female anyway...Why fix what's not broken? Maybe I'm aware that there are men that would want more female oriented designs in the male department... Turns out the fashion industry tried to make a splash/turn some heads with female-designed clothing that was marketed to men, but it failed epically. The only conclusion to be made goes back to economic of supply and demand...it's apparently not that big of deal to most men. Or, so it seems...

It has been said that most men will try "crossdressing" at some point in their life (where my psychology textbook came up with this survey, I have no idea). So, one would think there would be quite the market for female-designed clothes in the men's department. But, if no one is going out there and demanding it, how will there be change?

It's a hard one...and, at the end of the day, fussing at rather confused GGs is much easier. However, I would like to ask how I (and other GGs) are holding you back in your fashion adventures? On a scale of 1 to 10, how effective is it to just point a finger (or, in most cases, an anonymous Internet post) at GGs while insisting that we are also crossdressers? From my observations, a negative opinion is actually given to the CDing community, because most people don't take kindly to accusations that they feel are unfounded.

So, for those in knots at the lack of femininity in men's clothing, I wold like to ask what you personally plan on doing to rectify this situation. I can only hope that the plan does not begin and end with anonymous posts about how marginalized you are, or how women are equally guilty.

And, furthermore, how effective is such argument in this society? The real issue is that something culturally changed in how women dress many, many, many years ago...it was quite the scandal back in the day...but, does a valid social opinion really exist if most people have moved past it? Was it incorrect to have moved past it, or is it incorrect to have an archaic view on society's operations? I was also wondering how much of an impact passive movements have had in the past...can anyone recall a movement that changed history, but only required one group passively bemoaning at another? Is it the job of the group being accused (in this case GGs) to fight your own battles? I just ask because most political stances that I support generally just ask me to join their cause...they usually explain their stance to me in a way that doesn't pass off their problems on someone else.

I think a novel challenge for people who feel this way to become seen. If you aren't the type for active change, perhaps you can just show public support for those who do want the change. (This does require more than anonymous Internet posts of encouragement). And, though I could care less what is in the men's department, I show you my support...I make it a point to bring up TG topics to my social groups. So, tell me (and everyone else who wants you to wear what you want to wear) what we can do to help this change for you. And, I do hope your solution doesn't involve GGs to come out of the closet as CDs. (I almost feel that to do something like that is quite insulting for many who feel their CDing is a unique part if their personality).

So, that's it. I know I would be hoping in vain for there to be an extinction of posts looking for validation from other CDs that GGs are all CDs in disguise. But, I do hope that the ball gets rolling on constructive ideas that might actually lead to things that we could do to help make the community of males that desire feminine fashion to readily available/marketed to males more visible. If parts of the above post seem tongue-in-cheek, it's because they are...but, I do sincerely want you to get what you want...but, I also believe (and, I think most of you know it deep down) that you're going about things entirely the wrong way.

There is a running joke in my family where we tell each other not to "be one" when we are traveling...essentially, when we catch ourselves acting like a typical, idiot tourist, we give the accused a firm (but playful) expression and we say, "I just want you to know...you're being one." But, oddly enough, this phrase seemed to filter over into other parts of our life when we started acting like kind of an asshole.

And, with that I also pose the challenge that you don't be one...don't be That CD...*insert visual of angry CD in a skirt pointing at a confused GG in jeans and telling her that you are one and the same* Did it really move you toward what you want? Or, were you just guilty of being one?

I guess I'll end on that note.

[AllieSF]

I agree 100% with you. I really only see certain types of MtF CD's complaining, actually to me it is whining, and referencing the female crossdresser who isn't cross dressing. One type likes to dwell on their definition or a hard definition of the word crossdressing. They will argue till blue in their face that women are crossdressing when wearing traditional men's clothes and when on a more borderline moment when that sexy women gets out of bed at her boy friend's house and puts on one of his shirts to parade around his house as he makes that romantic after morning sex breakfast for her. I see those mostly in advertisements! Let them argue their semantics and still miss the big picture.

The other group, l the really believe are the main whining types, are just looking for justifications to mask their own lack of confidence and courage to take those first steps out of the house into the real world and just be themselves and live with what happens, which in 99% of the time maybe at worst stares, giggles and that occasional cat call or derogatory remark. I see a lot of these as being newbies to this site and maybe even to the world of CDing. Hopefully, they will learn that if they take the matter into their own hands that they can actually make a difference and get out there and enjoy themselves. I appreciate that it is not easy to go against the mainstream beliefs and practices, but it actually is not that difficult to swim against the current when crossdressing. By not being themselves I think that they lose a lot of fun and enriching opportunities, and they let themselves fall into that age old trap of blaming others for their own shortcomings, and in this case it is a lack of courage and ability to admit their own fears of looking so different from all the other males in male clothing out their.

[Wildaboutheels]

The NIMBY attitude is very firmly entrenched here. Many people want the "freedom" to go out "dressed" and not be "bothered by Society" but claim they will wait till the "coast is clear" maybe someday in the future.

The FACT is that the coast is clear right now for anyone with the least little bit of chutzpah.

"We have met the enemy and they is us".

[kimdl93]

The suggestion that women wearing slacks, pants, or jeans are CDing is a silly rationalization....at best a false equivalency. Like it or not, many...dare I suggest most CDrs wear women's clothes because its women's clothing, not for the texture, fit or style. If one hasn't attained a certain level of self acceptance, it's more comfortable emotionally to insist that it's a fashion preference rather than a gender identification.

[Shananigans]

Allie, I'm glad you brought up missed opportunities. My SO was extremely self conscious and closeted when we first met...it took a lot of guts for him to go out fully dressed. He's now "completely out." I use the " " because it's not like we really just walk around randomly announcing, "Haaaaaave you met Ryan? By the way, he's a CD." But, if something related comes up, we take the opportunity to inform people that's he's a CD. For example, one of my friends was joking with me that Ryan would have to start wearing my clothes if I didn't get rid of my old clothes/make space in my closet. I laughed and said, "Too late!" My friend kind of laughed/was confused...so, I said, "Oh, I thought you knew that Ryan is a CD" At this point, my friend just didn't believe me (I have a habit of exploiting gullible people)...so, I called Ryan over and said, "I was just telling Andrew that you were a CD." (My SO is used to my blunt behavior after 4 years). And, so he said, "Yep, it's true...I thought you saw me at the Halloween party." Andrew countered he thought it was just for Halloween....and, so I said, "Really? He did it that well and you thought it was just for Halloween? Or, that he goes as some random famous chick Every Halloween?" (I know...he may be a CD, but he just can't think out of the box...famous chick every year lol jk) So, our friend was a little interested...asked questions. Ryan gave the good ol' "I guess I just like to wear women's clothes." (Of course, that's really not his whole story...but, it is for some people...so they say). Either way, it was put out there and a lot of people in our lives now know someone personally who is influenced by these issues.

Now, I will admit that my SO and I have been paranoid at times going out..,worried about violence. Well, really, I'm the worried one...but, my SO was able to actually consider that people might be violent over such things...I think being raised male gives a bit of an "it wouldn't happen to me" mindset at times. It seems like me and my friends are perpetually on "rape alert"...as if every male on the street is just one flip out away from raping and pillaging. (It's actually really sad that we're taught this, but I actually have been pretty thankful of it in the past). But, the point is that we were also scared...we still are...but, we put ourselves out there. And, with doing that, we have had nothing but positive experiences...any negative experience that we have had remotely related to CDing has been from within ourselves...our community has been nothing but supportive. And, if we can get this in the middle of Alabama, I think it can be accomplished almost anywhere.

[kimdl93]

Honestly, if you guys canto out in Bama, there is hope almost everywhere. I've been out here in Houston many times, but we are quite cosmopolitan by TX standards. But I've also been out in a north Texas city known for doing bad things to gay and trans people. Nothing bad so far.

And thanks for the Steinbeck quote! I haven't read East of Eden in decades! Guess I need to revisit it!

[PaulaQ]

I think this is a silly argument and POV. For whatever reason, jeans and a shirt aren't particularly tied to a gender. A woman in a male business suit would still look sorta odd. She'd need to be pretty terrific looking to pull the look off anyway, which is why not many women buy them.

Women have a lot more freedom to express themselves in clothing. Life isn't fair, people need to get past the expectation that it ever will be. There are puh-lenty of situations where males have an advantage socially. This one works against us, thems the breaks.

BTW the bar on this has moved a lot, it is not unusual to see guys wear stuff now that would'be been shocking when I was young. Pierced ears are but one small example.

[darla_g]

Its always a weak argument to use the point that they can do it without comment why can't we? We have no spokesman and certainly no positive role models out in the public eye.

[Lorileah]

Maybe if all the crossdressing women who are jealous of how a man looks in a dress would stand up and....OK I can't even say that without laughing.

Shannan, there was a time, long long ago where fashions was very androgynous. Where men and women both wore tight slacks (with no back pockets that made my rear look really...I digress), bright shirts in florals and soft fabrics and shoes with stacked 2" heels. That world crumbled when one day men said "Hey! you look like a girl in that flammable rayon shirt!" and being hurt deeply and afraid that they would no longer be able to father children, the men went back to their bland every day existence. It was the exact thing you are talking about. Money talks. Men quit buying those clothes for fear of having their sexual preference challenged and started buying pants three times too big so that when they were 40 they could state "I wear the same waist size I did in high school".

But some went without fear. Some continued in silence and "underdressing" to wear the sot silky fabrics. Many more though chose to hide and rant about about how life was so unfair. They had the chance. It took women almost 50 years to get clothing that was functional for the day to day life. They didn't have the internet to use to rant towards the world. They just did it. Men tried for 5-10 years then said "this is hard". :)

[JackieInPA]

I think a big problem here is the fact that women can NOW wear pants/shorts/skirts whatever they want, but many people who make this argument fail to realize that women had to FIGHT for the ability to do so without social stigma, like we are doing now. Their battle just came earlier in history. Most societies have had 60or 70 years to come to terms with women not being forced to wear nothing but skirts/dresses. People now see the fruits of their labor but have forgotten that labor. Just in the last century have women fought their way up the societal ladder from being thought of as nothing more than breeders and servants to men, and actually still have some ways to go.

Part of what we need to do is not to tear women down...but to build them up. We need to truly as a society embrace the concept that men and women are equals. Until this happens men doing anything 'womanly' will be looked at as demeaning themselves, and worthy of ridicule.

[tiffanyjo89]

You are correct on this...women fought to have ways changed so they could wear shorter skirts and dresses and pants. Women did movements to get culture changed.

Now, there are women who actually crossdress, but most aren't noticed. There are some women who, at least around the house, will wear a men's dept stocked pair of sweats or boxers, and how many girls do you see in band shirts? Most of them are "unisex" (read, guy's t-shirt sold as unisex, cause I don't think many women's t-shirts would work as unisex due to the cut). Now, a lot of these women don't cause waves cause, A) band shirts ARE sold as unisex at concerts and websites and record stores and such and, B) they might wear a pair of boxers or mens sweats but they aren't trying to be a guy.

Now, part of the reason why I think crossdressing (at least in males) is typically seen as weird is that we still are kinda in a male driven society, and a fair amount of society can't see why a guy would want to have anything to do with anything girly. Also, there is a big difference in people's eyes of a guy who puts on a skirt and a guy who tries to look like a woman, even to adding fake breasts and such. Even though things like homosexuality and transsexualism are being viewed more and more as "normal" it still shakes many a old fashioned, conservative mind that a guy, who "has been given a higher status in society" would want to be a girl, even for a short amount of time.

[susan54]

Full marks to Shenanigans for doing her bit to try and get everyone off the subject of criticising women for wearing trousers (or whatever). When we want to wear what we want, it is bonkers to have a go at others for wearing what they want.

If you want society to change, people have to change it. If you are not willing to be part of the change, don't blame other people. I go out dressed as a woman a lot, and I go out as a man in a skirt a lot. I can only speak for the UK, but it is NOT a big deal. Apart from the occasional double-take, there is NO reaction. Astonishing but true. If anything, people in shops and restaurants and hotels are even nicer to you. If you feel there is a problem, be part of the solution.

I admit that I am not 'out' to most of my friends and colleagues, but that is my choice too. I have a huge commitment to my work, and my effectiveness depends on my professional credibility. I want to be judged by my work instead of what I wear, so my appearances are selective. That does not invalidate my point - I lead by example a lot of the time, and I do not feel any need to blame anything on women. For women to be able to wear trousers it took a few brave women to start doing so, at a time when society was nothing like as tolerant as it is now. My mother was one of those women.

It would be good if the retail sector did its bit to try and promote men wearing what they want. Imagine the upsurge in sales if more men felt comfortable buying skirts and dresses.

But the bottom line is - if you want change, be part of it.

[tiffanyjo89]

Something I will add...most women around where I live actually wear pants all the time.

If I'm out and see a woman in a skirt or a dress I tend to take notice a bit more. I guess it's because in an area (about halfway between Atlanta and the Alabama state line) having women in pants all the time makes a woman in a skirt instinctively stand out.

Also, the fashion industry may be all for men wearing women's clothes, but if men don't want to buy them, the stores aren't going to stock them.

[Kate Simmons]

Regardless of what anyone says here Shan, there is no way in Hell I can pour myself into a pair of jeans and look good like you gals do. Call it what you will, the result is what tells the tale.;):)

[kellycan27]

Female designed clothing for men are still " men's" clothing.... Kryptonite to cross dressers LOL

[Jamie001]

Its always a weak argument to use the point that they can do it without comment why can't we? We have no spokesman and certainly no positive role models out in the public eye.

The point is that you and I need to be the positive role models for other folks.


Female designed clothing for men are still " men's" clothing.... Kryptonite to cross dressers LOL

The problem here is that female designed clothing for men will be masculinized by the designer to the point that it will not be feminine anymore. Take for example women's high-heels. I am sure that if high-heels were offered for men, instead of simply offering larger sized, they would be ruggedized and masculinized making them look bulky and clunky. If the designers would just realize that all they need to do is make women's clothing and shoes in larger sizes rather than musculinizing these items.

[Shananigans]

The problem here is that female designed clothing for men will be masculinized by the designer to the point that it will not be feminine anymore. Take for example women's high-heels. I am sure that if high-heels were offered for men, instead of simply offering larger sized, they would be ruggedized and masculinized making them look bulky and clunky. If the designers would just realize that all they need to do is make women's clothing and shoes in larger sizes rather than musculinizing these items.

I bet that if there was a huge surge in demand for ultra-feminine man heels (wow, never that I'd use that terminology), designers would chunk them out and stores would stock them sky high.

Even business people that weren't wild about crossdressing would without a doubt hop on that gravy train and ride it all the way to the bank. How many people do you know that wouldn't?

For example, Chic Fil A... Oh, wait, even the big Bible thumping homophobes will still gladly serve you your overpriced chicken sandwich with a smile. I wasn't the least bit bothered by the owner saying he didn't support gay marriage...he's a businessman and not really much of an authority on morality/any valid opinion. As long as he doesn't slap a sign on the door that says No Homos allowed, I'll eat his chicken and call him backwards. And, he'll gladly take my big, gay money.

Because, that's how it works. You want feminine shoes? There's enough dudes that want them? Well, damn, if it hasn't been exploited and marketed, I'm seeing an opportunity here. The fact of the matter is people genuinely care about money...and, they care more about it than making a shoe that you won't buy. Now, I do expect that the feminine designed shoes marketed to men would be on the larger side...men are just bigger in general. And, more tailoring to the male body would probably be advantageous to most CDs...though I highly suspect that even though there is all this lamenting about little variety in the men's department, many CDs would still want the female marketed clothing item on pure principle. But, That is a a different animal...and, certainly no ground to stand on if you are making the argument that your only issue is that the men's department isn't frilly enough for your liking. I know that most of my old clothes fit my boyfriend very differently than they fit me...they really weren't designed with his shape in mind. And, unfortunately, now that I'm a size 4 and he's a 12, I won't let him go anywhere near my dresses in fear he'd rip them apart :( And, it's really not that he's fat or anything...he's actually on the skinnier side for guys...but, the way women's clothes are designed, he's pretty much screwed before he gets one arm in the sleeve. So, naturally, he wears a larger size, but they still fit quite awkwardly because women generally carry weight in their lower bodies...so, he's runs into this problem of the "baggy ass" syndrome. If there were feminine clothes that were designed for what is essentially an inverted triangle (the male shape), they'd look loads better. But, in female fashion, the larger clothes are generally larger at the bottom and not a whole lot different in the shoulder area...and, the smaller sizes are just so tiny that he could probably only successfully wear my dress as a scarf...bless his heart. And, it makes him feel fat...but, I tell him every day that he's just built differently and it's okay. We eventually find styles that work...but, it's quite a chore to find a style that fits and actually complements his frame.

So, I feel he would definitely be a consumer that would buy feminine male fashions...he would have No interest in fashions that were "meeting halfway." Generally, it seems that most people don't like it when things meet at the halfway mark... I know that I personally think that unisex was the worst thing to ever happen to clothing, it looks terrible on everyone (like a sloppy, untailored charley foxtrot of a nightmare, and I wish to never be forced to buy it again. In fact, I can't think of a single person (who I actually respect on fashion) that wears unisex outside of nightshirts. And, praise God the whole thing is just dying out...someone told designers that they created monster and we'll all pretend it never happened. So, I feel almost like a "man heel" would be very similar...the heel is generally worn to look feminine...it would be the stupidest thing in the world to have a man's-looking shoe with a heel on it. (Though I've seen sneaker heels and I thought I had literally died and gone to Hell). So, though the shoe might look more masculine from size, I feel like styles would probably be more feminine... Or, else what would be the point? My SO also is a size 12 shoe...imagine what a nightmare it is to find That. (Although I guess many of you know). And, his foot isn't getting any smaller, so he's either going to get a shoe designed to fit him or shop in the men's department...he might occasionally run into the odd designer for big-footed women, but even that's pretty sparse. And, I am guessing that also has to do with market...I really don't know a girl that has a bigger foot than me (personally)...and I'm just a 9.5-10. But, even I had a hard time finding shoes because I was cursed with banana feet...weird, narrow feet... However, it seemed like there must have been a Banana Foot convention that I missed...because, one day, tons of "narrow" shoes started piling on the shelves. I think every woman in my family praised the day they would no longer be wobbling around in their giant shoes. But, like it or not, when I wear skinny jeans it's pretty obvious that I have these long, awkward feet. It is what it is. So, say tomorrow they have stilletos in the male department in size 12s...my boyfriend snatches them up...he snatches up a dress in that same department that is a 12. Well, when he goes home, it's not going to magically change his body type or make his feet any smaller...and, I'm sure he might do what I do and blame the shoe. But, in his case, he could always hop back over to the women's department in a declared bias that their dresses and shoes are more feminine...and, that biased would be confirmed just on the basis that it is possibly more feminine being that it was actually designed for women. Yet, at the end of the day, your foot still is the same size and now you're in a dress that doesn't fit quite right. There Are people that are blessed, and I'm sure there are quite a few lucky CDs here...but, I also know the majority run in to problems like my SO. And, though I know he'd take that male-designed dress and say it is too manly, I am sure that it would probably look more tailored to him. You have to rid yourself of the bias that things from the women's department=feminine and that things designed for women=feminine to accept it...and, I recognize that it seems backwards. But, if the argument is truly for more feminine male fashions, then you have to also buy that it is still designed with a man in mind. Does that make it automatically more masculine and unacceptable? Is it still unacceptable if it might actually fit you better?

I can't really answer these questions. But, in my body issues of having long, stupid feet, I had to ask if I would continue spending money on "normal" shoes if they didn't come in narrow. And, I came to the conclusion that I sometimes might by the regular shoe...but, I'm also buying the narrows. I still cringe when I see my feet sticking out of the bottom of my pants legs like two floating battleships attached to my ankles, but it's really not the shoe's fault. Have I taken shoes back because "they made my feet look big"? Yep. And, I also silently realized I was being one...I just have big, banana feet.

[tiffanyjo89]

What you brought up in your last post is actually very interesting.

There are people who make feminine looking clothing cut with a typical male build in mind (the inverted triangle as it is called), but those places either deliver horrible quality or are generally over priced and under stocked in styles. Oh, and there are people who are genetically part of one sex (both sides have their small section that suffers this no matter what) and wear the clothing of their birth sex but have issues finding clothing cause they are kinda between sizes. Take, for example, a woman who is well endowed, she might have to have everything she buys either altered (which is expensive when everything has to be done) or she might buy the larger of the two sizes and have a top that fits very loose around her waist (despite it being designed to fit tight around the waist). I can imagine a flat chested woman would suffer the opposite as well.

Also, take someone like me, I have about a half foot split between my waist and hips, that's a few inches more than the average split, but I also carry a bit more in my thighs. Also, a lot of stores really don't seem to have jeans that are at 30 inches that will fit me okay.

At one time more people had clothes more-or-less custom made and it was something that would look right on them, and if they weren't custom made by the store, the people knew more and were able to modify the clothes easier. Part of the issues trans types run into are just a slightly more exaggerated form of what happens with non trans types all the time, mass production. Sometimes in body work on cars you get a car that has had its frame bent a little out of line, but when you order, let's say, a fender try to bolt it on, it doesn't line up cause of the frame being out of line. Is it the manufacturer's fault? No, they made it for the specifications that the car was made to from the factory and that's the only way to really do it. When your shop gets it they might have to modify the thing to make it fit right. It happens. When people buy clothes, they are made for a template that applies to a certain ideal, that ideal will vary between manufacturer and store preference (like how Victoria's Secret doesn't even have bras that go past a certain point, but other retailers will, and a store that sells jeans to teens probably would not be making money if it stocked jeans that covered the belly button, despite the fact that there are people who will buy them, but the people who will buy them won't go into that store).

[docrobbysherry]

Look, Shana, u posted here with an attitude. So, u should expect an argument! However, it won't be from me.

Of all the specious, convoluted, and smoke screen posts I've read here, claims blaming GG's for CD's dressing or having anything to do with forming public opinion against dressers is too far over the top to argue about!

The only thing I blame GG's for is looking so hot that I feel compelled to copy their style or looks!

[Shananigans]

Tiffany, custom-made or altered is definitely best...but, I would be outta my damn mind if I took all my crap to be altered in this economy. It used to be an option when I had a reasonable tailor...but, he went out of business a while ago. My best friend is really petite...she has legs that I swear are like 12 inches long (lol). And, obviously, we can't be walking around the hospital with our pants dragging on the ground...I thought she had all if her scrubs hemmed, but she was duct taping them up! Have you heard of such crap? She knows she's wrong for that one. So, some things do need to be specialized, but it's largely not feasible for wardrobe-scale. Clothing quality is a mess not only with men's fashion or with fashions that deal with people caught in between shapes...it's all just bad in general. The biggest load of crock is Forever 21...they really disgust me now. And, seriously, it's not That much cheaper. Sure I can pay $10 less for some heels there, but if they break and I fall and bust myself up then they really aren't worth it. So, Everyone has to be pretty consumer aware now on quality...I really do my research. If a designer makes something you feel is of bad quality...refuse to buy anything from them. A store makes female fashions for men, but they do a bad job?...Screw them. But, right now, they pretty much have their thumbs on the market because they don't have a lot of competition. But, if you buy women's clothes, it continues to look like there is absolutely very little demand for feminine clothes designed for men...and, so your stuck with few competitors and a crappy product. And, the women of awkward sizing (or, well endowed) actually have no excuse...there are tons of stores out there catering to women of all sizes and variations...but, generally, we tend to have similar bone structure and we tend to gain weight in the same ways...so, it's pretty easy to set up shop. It does, however, require some research...and, I think most people are working so hard that they just want to put something on their backs and get on with the day. I actually was volunteering at a homeless shelter for women today and it was sort of frightening how similar we all were...or, that we were just a few pay checks away in difference. But, they'd be the first to tell you that they won't waste their money supporting a broken product. I feel like it's a popular attitude and the industries are listening intently...now, would be a good time for other populations to be heard as far as what they are wanting and willing to buy...if you know what I mean.

[max]

Shananigans, I tried to read most of your post, but you need to add some tl;dr's sometimes...

One point that it seems you overlooked is that women can take clothes from the mens' department wear those and not have it called crossdressing. That is where the double standard comes into play. On reddit there is a more active FTM community and you can read in some of their posts about how far they have to take crossdressing in order for people to realize they are trying to present a masculine image. If they do just a little it's so accepted that nobody realizes they are trying to make a statement about their gender identity.

[PaulaQ]

On reddit there is a more active FTM community and you can read in some of their posts about how far they have to take crossdressing in order for people to realize they are trying to present a masculine image. If they do just a little it's so accepted that nobody realizes they are trying to make a statement about their gender identity.

Thing is, most women aren't trying to make any type of statement with clothes like that. There are many businesses that dress everyone, men and women, in a golf shirt and khakis. What would've been traditionally male clothes 50-60 years ago have become unisex in many cases now.

I would venture that most of us on this forum do not choose the women's garments we wear primarily for comfort, practicality, utility, and flexibilty - we are mostly trying to make a statement. Maybe to the world, maybe to ourselves.


And, the women of awkward sizing (or, well endowed) actually have no excuse...there are tons of stores out there catering to women of all sizes and variations...but, generally, we tend to have similar bone structure and we tend to gain weight in the same ways...so, it's pretty easy to set up shop.

Sort of OT:

I just wanted to say something about this - because I actually know something about this. I worked for a place, once a long time ago, that built systems for the design of apparel and footwear. Generally there are a set of mathematical rules / transformations that take a basic pattern, and scale it non-linearly to adjust for variations in size of the human body in various ways. This is a fairly mechanical process, and each vendor has their own sets of rules to generate sizes.

What limits the sets of sizes they create is the market - in the sense that modern apparel is generally cut on gigantic cutting machines. These machines generally cut 50+ ply of fabric at a time, creating the parts for sometimes hundreds of garments very rapidly. Needing to produce at least 50-100 of a really atypical size for your market limits what they'll make.

BTW, the machines that make wedding dress pieces are spectacularly awesomely huge.

Sorry for the OT.

[Rachel Morley]

Personally, I have never thought that because GGs wear pants (or whatever) they were CDing, of course they're not. It's just a fashion choice that (as you rightly say) they made happen due their own efforts in the distant past. In my past when I was not accepting of myself as a CDer and was still deep in the closet I wanted to wear more feminine clothing, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it (not in public anyway) and so at the time used to moan about men's fashion choices verses women's and that it wasn't fair.

However, these days, because I am at peace with myself and accept and embrace CDing fully, I never think for one second that men have poor choices or moan about differences. Why? ... because it doesn't matter to me anymore. I wear women's clothes all the time to a greater or lesser extent. So, if I have to wear a more gender neutral clothes at work than I would like, so what? I know that as soon as I get out of work I can femme my boy mode up a little and if that's not enough, I know that this coming weekend I'm going to be fully immersed in "femme-ness" because I'll be presenting as female and going out! Men's clothing choices? .. who cares, not me.

[Chickhe]

I think most of the comments made are 'justifications' for CDing. They are probably not intended to discredit woman or anyone else. Its like saying if Billy is allowed to throw a ball, I should be allowed to also and doing that doesn't take anything away from Billy. In fact, Billy will then have a friend to play with. As for CDers hiding...well, I think its all about fear and the reactions of others. Most CDers I think are happy with their lives and fear that CDing or the knowledge that they CD will change everything. Its a valid concern based on some of the really bad situations we hear about in the news. In a perfect world, where CDing is considered normal, things would be a lot different. If you think back a few years, anyone with a tattoo was considered an outcast, but now almost anyone gets one and you almost don't notice anymore. It takes time, but there are more and more CDers becoming visible, for example, Jessica Who or KimberlyTx who are out there talking to people and enjoying it. I do halloweens enfem partly to get out and show people CDing is fun. It takes time, but the world is becoming a generally more freindly place for everyone.

[Amanda M]

Frankly for me it is quite simple. For a crossdresser to denigrate women for wearing trousers is simply silly. If you are a crossdresser, and you think the GGs around you wearing pants are crossdressing, surely you should be supportive of them?

As to more feminine looking male fashions - kkryptonite indeed! I like my female clothing precisely because that is what it is - female clothing!

So if the pants fit, wear them.

[Sarasometimes]

I think a big problem here is the fact that women can NOW wear pants/shorts/skirts whatever they want, but many people who make this argument fail to realize that women had to FIGHT for the ability to do so without social stigma, like we are doing now. Their battle just came earlier in history. Most societies have had 60or 70 years to come to terms with women not being forced to wear nothing but skirts/dresses. People now see the fruits of their labor but have forgotten that labor. Just in the last century have women fought their way up the societal ladder from being thought of as nothing more than breeders and servants to men, and actually still have some ways to go.

Part of what we need to do is not to tear women down...but to build them up. We need to truly as a society embrace the concept that men and women are equals. Until this happens men doing anything 'womanly' will be looked at as demeaning themselves, and worthy of ridicule.
That last line speaks volumes!! Well put!
Before you take aim at me let me explain where I'm at. I'm not in a position to lead this battle. I go out dressed and get my wig atyled. I shop enmale and enfemme for clothes but I'm not looking to make the news, quite the contrary. The reasons are mine and no one here knows them well enough to judge them.
I agree that this is the ultimate underlying problem. Women had a huge struggle to have society accept them wearing pants but I think the difference was that society at the time could appreciate the motivation. I think most of society hasn't or can't see the motivation yet so that first needs to change. Not an easy thing when society is currently focused on encouraging/accepting females in more amd more traditionally male roles. It is kind of tough to fight for and gain acceptance of wearing pantyhose, when both those who can and those who can't generally don't want to.
To the OP, I appreciate you and your mate putting yourselves out there to the degree you feel comfortable and that is the best any of us can do, to help make the change we generally want. Some can scream from the mountain top, others can meerly whisper, and some need to stay quiet. The pace of change may be agonizingly slow but as another post mentioned the younger generation now routinely have 2 ears pierced, get eyebrow waxing, chest wax and wear skinny jeans. I doubt I'll be around when we hit paydirt but it is improving, thanks to all who help!

[Nikki Rich]

Ok this topic is very intresting some of the post are so long tho , apparently you've struck a nerve , I am a crossdresser and I live in Alabama , my wife ( which knows I'm a crossdresser and accepts me ) wears jeans and tshirts all the time , I don't feel it makes her a crossdresser in my opinion that's just a silly point of view. I do know even here in Alabama if you shop some where besides Walmart the mens department has some really nice clothes. I guess I just like to look and feel good about myself whether I'm wearing mens or women's clothes , I do have to admit girls jeans fit me better than mens but that's just my body type. I will admit that instead of guys whining about there clothing choices they should show clothing manufacturers that there is a demand for a change and have the balls to go out and by the stuff not just get on here and whin. I'm not to a point yet to go out dressed as a female so I've begain to buy more more male clothes that fit my inner feelings more. I love purple shirts I think that color looks good on me , my wife just recently bought my a black peacoat and I live it , yes I have taken some snide comments from some of my friends about my wardrobe change but that's thier issue not mine
Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[Frédérique]

And, with that I also pose the challenge that you don't be one...don't be That CD...*insert visual of angry CD in a skirt pointing at a confused GG in jeans and telling her that you are one and the same* Did it really move you toward what you want? Or, were you just guilty of being one?

Well, I never pay any attention to women wearing men’s clothes, or female clothes based on a male prototype. I mean, let’s be practical! I’m contained in my own little world, happy to a fault, confident in the fact that I don’t have to engage in any sartorial arguments with the other gender. In any event, I’m not out there, on the front line, seeking conflict for its own sake – that would only deflate my enjoyment of CD’ing and make me hate my beloved “self.” I can assure you I won’t be one of them – I’d much rather mind my own business…
:straightface:

[Beverley Sims]

You are really up to your shenanigans this time Shananigans.

Too many questions and analysis for someone with the attention span of a clothesline.

Women CD'ing for me is a Female to Male transsexual, or someone of that ilk.

I am using the F to M as an illustration only.

They do have a harder road to go and need our support.

If you talk about a Female CD'er you are not talking about women wearing a pair of trousers.

I can wear women jeans and not get noticed.

If I wear a skirt I do leave myself open to ridicule because it is not considered the norm YET!

Frédérique,
I just read your post, I think we were both composing at the same time.
Well I am pinhead no 1 today.

Paying attention to women in mens clothes,
they wear them better than men do.
For a man to wear a dress he has to look at least presentable.
Some women whether for a joke or whatever can look drop dead gorgeous in mens clothes.
There is the boiler suit brigade that I do not care for.

[DonniDarkness]

Fashion.

At the end of the day that is what this, Thesis that Shannan has written, is really about...even if the topic has been derailed by the fact that CD's use excuses as to why they dont have Femme styles within their Male wardrobe.

I agree with everything Shannan has said here. Aside from the statement that there aren't femme or androgynous fashions available to men in their "department"
The reason i dont agree with it is because, i have a closet full of androgynous attire.

Skinny jeans(like 10 pairs)...fitted shirts....racer back Tees...Tight fitted shirts (we have a joke here in my family..."Donni likes his Baby Gap T-shirts)...Converse Black on black Chucks....Fitted button ups......Cardigans....Nomad Scarves

And dont get me started on how to layer with mens fashion.....You can take simple wardrobe items you probably already own and make something awesome happen.....

If your wondering how to find all this "femme" stuff in the stores...Open your eyes....its there, its just hard to see it with all the bad fashion choices your bombarded with when walking into the mens department.

I think that the main reason that CD's want to play the blame game is that they are just unhappy with their male attire. I see MtF threads that show their femme selves dressed and presented awesome and then their guy photos look like they have lost hope in life. I have never understood why CD's dont take care to present themselves as well dressed or fashionable men in their daily lives....but yet they go through so much effort for their femme selves....

The fashion industry is changing with the trends that are already here... I wanted to post a few pics from this years Mens fashion trends that are on the rise.

This shirt is fitted and has a slimming line on the sides of the torso that mimic boning and has a 3/4 sleeve. Not to mention the fabric is glimmering satin
198539

This hoodie is also 3/4 sleeve and has really cool cowl neck design
198540

How about this jacket! This style is fitted and looks incredibly like the Ladies cut leather jackets from the 80's
198541

How about these jeans....I love them!
198543

Shoes and boy capris....
198544

So if your unhappy with your male attire then change it, but dont blame the women in the world for your poor fashion choices or the inability to make your "everyday look" feel less "Drab".

Many here would rather blame society than themselves...or in this case the "GG's In Jeans"

Great post Shan,

-Donni-

PS

I guess I just like to look and feel good about myself whether I'm wearing mens or women's clothes , I do have to admit girls jeans fit me better than mens but that's just my body type. I will admit that instead of guys whining about there clothing choices they should show clothing manufacturers that there is a demand for a change and have the balls to go out and by the stuff not just get on here and whin.

SEE! Ms. Nikki Rich has the right idea! Props and high fives! Inspiring to see other CD's making active and positive choices! GJ

[bridget thronton]

Nice post and many good points to think on

[IngeInCO]

Fashion.

At the end of the day that is what this, Thesis that Shannan has written, is really about...even if the topic has been derailed by the fact that CD's use excuses as to why they dont have Femme styles within their Male wardrobe.

I agree with everything Shannan has said here. Aside from the statement that there aren't femme or androgynous fashions available to men in their "department"
The reason i dont agree with it is because, i have a closet full of androgynous attire.

And dont get me started on how to layer with mens fashion.....You can take simple wardrobe items you probably already own and make something awesome happen.....

If your wondering how to find all this "femme" stuff in the stores...Open your eyes....its there, its just hard to see

So if your unhappy with your male attire then change it, but dont blame the women in the world for your poor fashion choices or the inability to make your "everyday look" feel less "Drab".

Many here would rather blame society than themselves...or in this case the "GG's In Jeans"

Great post Shan,

-Donni-

Wow Donni, as I have been reading through this thread I couldn't help but think very much what you have said. I think men's fashion has taken a more feminine look... If you look. I think you can find many options. You have shown nice examples. In order to foster it we have to buy! They will only make what sells. I like to wear pastel shirts and T's and more feminine cuts, they are in style.

Thanks for the post Shananigans!

[DonniDarkness]

Thanks Inge.

I like pastel shirts too. I was just reminded that last week my wifes brother came over to visit, hes a hunter and a country guy....he walks in our front door wearing a Bright Pink Tee with black and Magenta tribal artwork on it.... i think it was a liquor brand Tee shirt.

I commented on his shirt and said if he wanted to give it a nice home i would pimp it out for him. He declined and said "You know how many compliments from girls i get for wearing this shirt, no way im getting rid of it" We laughed and the conversation moved on.

The next day my daughter and were talking about something(cant remember what it was now) and she spouts off "Real men wear pink Dad."

Shes 11 years old.....Times are changing....and i smiled proudly at her, thanked her for the compliment and gave her a hug.

-Donni-

[ReluctantDebutant]

There have always been more fashionable men's clothes that come in a full spectrum of colors and fabrics. These styles have also looked more on the androgonious or feminine side. but the problem I see for these fashions to become more maistream are many.

1. Fashionable men's clothes like fashionable women's clothes seem to be desigen for and produced in sizes for people who are built and look like fashion models.

2. Alot of men don't care to be on the cutting edge of fashion. Most men I know don't care to spend alot on new clothes. They'll save and get a new truck or car every few years but purchash on really nice expensive jacket or shoes and wear it till it falls apart.

3. Despite the arguement for more clothing chioces. For CDer's it is about the clothing being women's clothes. Men's clothes no matter how "feminized" will not be that appealing.

Stores will only put on the shelves what the majority of men will buy. CDer's and Fashionalbe males are a niche market nothing wrong with being a niche.

[tiffanyjo89]

Something people actually don't realize that I just thought of...

The most literal definition of "crossdressing" is a person of one sex (going with between the legs here) wearing clothing made with the intent that it will be worn by a person of the other sex (once again, going with the between the legs here). A guy just wearing a dress or his girlfriends jacket as a joke has crossdressed. Same with a girl who wears pants sold in the men's department. I remember being at school and seeing a girl with a pair of tighty whities hanging out of the waistband of her jeans. Was she crossdressing? By the simplest definition, yes. She was wearing a pair of male underwear. Now, American Appearal designs feminine cut underwear that looks like men's briefs, and even sales their men's brief in both sections of their website. Does that mean that a girl wearing that is crossdressing? That's where the gray area comes into play. Something that is actually a men's shirt or pant or underwear that the manufacturer and stores market as unisex can be argued as not crossdressing and result in as many hung juries as you can assemble.

According to this page (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-boyfriend-jeans.htm) the boyfriend jeans are women's jeans that are just made a bit looser than typical loose fitting women's jeans and sometimes a bit longer than most women's jeans. They aren't just smaller sized men's jeans. I did hear about there being "ex-girlfriend jeans" but this site (http://www.thefrisky.com/2011-02-09/no-man-should-wear-his-ex-girlfriends-jeans/) call them a blow to masculinity. That article was only written a couple years ago...it shows that there still are people who think a guy who wants to do something that is typically girly (skinny jeans in this case) is seen as something that is not desirable.

[vivianann]

I dont see GG's as crossdressing because they are wearing pants of any kind, I am old enough to remember when women were scorned for not wearing a dress or skirts.
The GG's of that era just wore what they wanted and finally it has become mainstream for GG's to wear what they want to wear. Personally I like seeing curvy women in pants, it is sexy just the same as they are when wearing a dress.
As I have said before I dont consider GG's as crossdressers. as for me I like to wear feminine clothing such as dresses or skirts, and yes I do consider myself as a crossdresser. I came out to the world 7 yrs ago, and since then life for me has changed for the better, and I believe that society has been more accepting of crossdressing males, I have been in small towns wearing a dress, and so far everybody has been very accepting. However those same peaple are not as accepting if a crossdressing male is wearing ****ty clothes.
I do agree with Shananagans and others on this topic, that we need to stop whining and pointing fingers of shame at GG's because they are not wearing a dress.
We as crossdressing males need to buck up with courage and go out dressed in dresses or skirts of our choosing out in public, and have confidence, peaple will respond positively to you. I am living proof that you can go out in society crossdressed without any repercussion.
As for making mens clothes more feminine I am not too hip on that idea, I personally prefer that feminine clothing and masculine clothing styles be separate. I prefer to wear dresses, and the feminine look that goes with it, I wear a wig, makeup, and breastforms when crossdressed because I want to be accepted as a woman when wearing a dress. I never go out crossressed without a wig, makup, and breastfoms, because I dont want to be seen as just a man in a dress. I dont pass 100% but how I carry myself when crossdressed goes along way in helping me to blend in and be treated with respect by those peaple I encounter when out and about. I find that GG's show me great respect when I am crossdressed, so we need to show them respect also. We need to show respect if we want it in return.
And to the GG's out there, I have nothing but admiration for you no matter what you are wearing.

[susan54]

Two additional points:

In the 1970s young (heterosexual) men like me wore high heeled shoes. They were not feminine,. but had heels of two inches or more - and a few more extreme guys actually wore Bowie type platforms.

I thoroughly enjoy Shenanigans' posts and am glad she is a contributor to this Forum. The more literate members should not complain about poor grammar or spelling, but likewise there should be no criticism of those who develop a longer story. There is room for all of us here - no need for words like 'pinheads'. Let's all get on, people.Tolerance in writing styles as well as clothing styles.

[tiffanyjo89]

Yeah, and least she isn't posting something that's already been posted that week, seventeen times, in five languages (you get the point).

[Ally 2112]

I have never thought that women were cding and still do not .I wear womens clothing because it's just that .If there was more femine mens clothing i would still go right to the womens department and buy what i liked :).I like to wear womens clothing not girly mens clothes (good post !)

[DonniDarkness]

In the 1970s young men like me wore high heeled shoes. 198564198566198565198567

You can still buy them...Brand new.

ReluctantDebutant, i borrowed this series of points. Please dont take this as me picking your post apart. It was just more concise than some of the other responses.


1. Fashionable men's clothes like fashionable women's clothes seem to be desigen for and produced in sizes for people who are built and look like fashion models.

Anyone can be fashionable, regardless of size, gender, or age

2. Alot of men don't care to be on the cutting edge of fashion. Most men I know don't care to spend alot on new clothes. They'll save and get a new truck or car every few years but purchash on really nice expensive jacket or shoes and wear it till it falls apart.

But we are talking about a crossdressers' fashion choices. We are not most men.

3. Despite the arguement for more clothing chioces. For CDer's it is about the clothing being women's clothes. Men's clothes no matter how "feminized" will not be that appealing.

I understand and i have seen this response many times in this forum. The reason i bring up Mens fashion is because it is something we as individuals have control of. However we do not have control over what other people in the world wear on a daily basis. Instead of whining about what we cant do, i would say challenge yourself with what you CAN do....Make a statement about yourself that doesnt tear down the actions of others.

Womens jeans are designed for women...they have styles for men that are similar...
And thats the point, If you want to Crossdress then by all means do so. Dont lay blame or whine about what you cant do.
-Donni-

[Maria S]

I have no wish for mens clothes to be more feminine. I enjoy dressing as a woman. If it were accepted for men to wear feminine clothes it would become the norm as I am sure most men and women feel about the clothes they wear every day going to work washing the car picking up the kids etc. The sparkle would be gone.

I do not in any way blame GGs for this situation. I believe that CDers find it hard to understand why a GG would prefer to wear trousers, sweat shirt and trainers rather than skirt, blouse and high heels that were designed to compliment the beautiful figure of a woman.

I do partly blame CDers who are completely in the closet. The ones who buy their clothes online or go to a shop and make out they are buying for a GG as a present or a GG that goes out and buy their clothes for them. This causes a misrepresentation of who requires what to the market place.

Sorry if this is a bit garbled. This is the 4th time today I've tried to write my reply to Shannigan's in depth post but have always been interupted and had to start again.

Maria

[sometimes_miss]

Shanagans, the big problem isn't what we're 'allowed' to wear, but that so many crossdressers think that they feel they have the right to insist that other people (most often, we want WOMEN) to LIKE it and be attracted to us that way. And that isn't something that you can legislate.
If I can give a really good analogy, in america fat women have been insisting that 'real women have curves' when what they mean is 'real women are fat', and that all men should just accept it and learn to like it. Not gonna happen. You can't change what turns someone on anymore than you can change what turns them off. And if a woman is turned off by a guy who dresses in girl attire, there's no way you're going to make that guy 'hot' to her (other than perhaps having the guy become a billionaire, which might make her willing to overlook the crossdressing and 'close her eyes and do it for king and country' as they used to say). If you start having 95% of men dress and act like girls, then most women are going to be interested in 5% of the men who don't. Sure, some will 'settle', when they realize no other men are available, but you still can't force them to like it.

[Lorileah]

If I can give a really good analogy, in america fat women have been insisting that 'real women have curves' when what they mean is 'real women are fat'

Not even a semi-fair analogy and very rude. But you do prove that your prejudices do set a tone. I think you have proven a part of the OPs point. CDs don't think when they say things and they make broad poorly based arguments

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

For example, Chic Fil A... Oh, wait, even the big Bible thumping homophobes will still gladly serve you your overpriced chicken sandwich with a smile. I wasn't the least bit bothered by the owner saying he didn't support gay marriage...he's a businessman and not really much of an authority on morality/any valid opinion. As long as he doesn't slap a sign on the door that says No Homos allowed, I'll eat his chicken and call him backwards. And, he'll gladly take my big, gay money.

Just have to interject here. This is the version of the story that was being spun by the defenders of Chik-Fil-A on a freedom of speech argument and
had it been the only issue involved, I'd have agreed with it too. But the case wasn't really what he said, but rather that it gave equal rights group an opportunity to shine a light on the fact that CFA as a company had a "charity" wing that was donating company profits to organizations that were actively lobbying top ban gay marriages. He's allowed to think how he wants, and he's also allowed to do whatever he wants with his own personal profits that come from his business as a private citizen. But CFA was, as a company, taking your big gay money, and donating it to anti-gay groups. That's more than a businessman running his dumb mouth, and considering that they actually stopped doing it, the brouhaha was actually effective. As was the similar incident with Target a few years back, in fact Target has reversed their position so far that they're now advocates for equality.

To get back to the real subject at hand though, the fundamental problem whenever someone is being one, to borrow your phrase, is that they're not actually making a proper comparison. I constantly get comments whenever I post pictures of myself as a man in a skirt or dress about how I'm only going halfway or how I'm not finishing the look, because I don't try to pass. If the end game is to pass or to be convincing as a woman, then you're not simply expanding your wardrobe, you're not doing the same thing as a woman putting on jeans.

Dressing as a woman in women's clothes is great if that's who you are and what you want to be doing. But if you're actually of the mindset that men should have the same freedom to dress in a broader range of clothes like women do, then when you "pass" you're actively working against your own self-stated position. You're saying, "I have to dress like a woman to wear these things because they are only for women."

Also, Shan, I don't think you're being one for returning shoes that make your feet look big. Yes, it's not the shoe's fault because they are inanimate objects and your feet are the size they are, but clothes can draw attention or accentuate things, and so it's not irrational to feel a particular style of shoe is unflattering where others are not. That's not being one, that's coming to terms with limits of your own shape.

[Debglam]

Hey Shan!

I'm only replying to this because it was your OP! Miss you and hope that you and CamilleLeon are doing fine and having fun!

I wear women's clothes because I want to "be" one, at least to the greatest extent I can. As others have said, GG's wearing pants are generally not wearing them because they want to be men.

The one thing I DO lament is the abysmal lack of colors that men can wear! I looking at my male wardrobe in the morning and get depressed. Green. gray, navy blue, and black suits. Hey, I can wear a colorful tie though! :sad:

Debby

[Jamie001]

Dressing as a woman in women's clothes is great if that's who you are and what you want to be doing. But if you're actually of the mindset that men should have the same freedom to dress in a broader range of clothes like women do, then when you "pass" you're actively working against your own self-stated position. You're saying, "I have to dress like a woman to wear these things because they are only for women."


Amen!! Thank you Jive for stating this fact. Most of the folks on this site believe that they need to completely dress as a woman to wear women's clothing and many also believe that the need to "pass". When women wear men's clothing they are doing it as women and not attempting to pass as a man. For example the Tomboy look. I believe that folks like myself and Jive that incorporate femme items into our otherwise male presentation have a much better chance of acceptance than a person that attempts to pass as a woman. If more men start incorporate women's clothing/items into their everyday look as feminine men, then crossdressing will be more accepted. On the other hand, crossdressers that attempt to pass as women and don't pass will have a much more difficult time because they are more shunned by society. Therefore the odds are in favor of the male the incorporates feminine items and still presents as a male (opposite of a Tomboy), and the crossdresser that completely passes because everyone believes that she is a GG.

[tiffanyjo89]

There are women who will dress in a very "butch" manner (short hair, very minimal if non-existent makeup, extremely masculine, if not actual men's clothing, and will probably wear sports bras and such to make their boobs look smaller, if they don't already have smaller boobs) who get criticized. Heck, part of the reason why someone like an Ellen DeGeneres type doesn't face much public criticism on her looks is that she "owns" the look. Also, it's part of the women who came before her who helped pave the road she walks. Also, she's very successful in her career and keeps a level head about her so that it is hard to criticize her without seeming like a jealous jerk.

Now, take the opposite approach that one Kanye West tried in December of last year, and Axl Rose from the early 90s, both are known for being very eccentric and not really known for being the most level headed off stage, so despite their successes, people find it easy to criticize them for wearing skirts, cause it's just "another crazy thing they did." If a person like a Regis Philbin type or a Simon Cowell or Ryan Seacrest type wore skirts all the time on stage then perhaps more men would accept them, cause level headed successful men who are pretty well known for having pretty good judgment about things would be a voice of reason speaking for the male skirt wearing, as opposed to a person who is not really known for being of sound mind.

[busker]

Hey Shan!

I'm only replying to this because it was your OP! Miss you and hope that you and CamilleLeon are doing fine and having fun!

I wear women's clothes because I want to "be" one, at least to the greatest extent I can. As others have said, GG's wearing pants are generally not wearing them because they want to be men.

The one thing I DO lament is the abysmal lack of colors that men can wear! I looking at my male wardrobe in the morning and get depressed. Green. gray, navy blue, and black suits. Hey, I can wear a colorful tie though! :sad:

Debby

Something that doesn't come up here is that there is always the tailored suit in any color one chooses, in any material one chooses. I recently watched a Hindi film and one character was wearing what appeared to be a suit of black satin. I think that guys here wouldn't be caught dead wearing black satin.
female clothing isn't always feminine looking, and if men want to feminize their guywear, they can add bling, lace or whatever. That isn't going to happen either.
The other thing that isn't often mentioned is that for the most part women wear just about the same drab colors that men do. I've recently checked and blue (jeans) black pants and shoes, lots of grays, some browns, black leggings (recently saw some wide back and white striped ones), some green and saw for the first time a woman in red cords. Those colors are inexpensive, abundant and common.

[Aylineira]

This is such a good read :)

My only thoughts is that if we wish to change the world views on CD'rs, we all need to come out of the closet and embrace the streets!

[Ezekiel]

This is such a good read :)

My only thoughts is that if we wish to change the world views on CD'rs, we all need to come out of the closet and embrace the streets!

A worldwide event, all go out en masse the same day. People would be shocked, and unforgettable day for the world.

[Jamie001]

This is such a good read :)

My only thoughts is that if we wish to change the world views on CD'rs, we all need to come out of the closet and embrace the streets!

The problem is that most CDers are closeted and will never come out. Unfortunately most CDers lack courage

[ReluctantDebutant]

The problem is that most CDers are closeted and will never come out. Unfortunately most CDers lack courage

Its not always a lack of courage most of the time its a preference. I am a closeted CDer and I have been out a few times and the world was more excepting then advertised but it was also boring as hell. When one is home alone they can focus all their attention on the clothes and the fantasy. For many CDers crossdressing is just something to do for fun and not an expression of themselves.Also Many CDers don't hate male clothes. Why bother going out enfemme and risk being viewed as being less then a man when that is not how you really feel and wearing male clothes is not a pain or a problem?

[tiffanyjo89]

Also, a lot of CDrs don't neccesarily lack courage, they just have a reality that if they were to leave the closet, they would probably lose their family (same thing with a lot of gays) or business relations (small, closed minded town). Would you like to either stay in hiding or come out and be forced to rebuild your life?

[Jamie001]

Also, a lot of CDrs don't neccesarily lack courage, they just have a reality that if they were to leave the closet, they would probably lose their family (same thing with a lot of gays) or business relations (small, closed minded town). Would you like to either stay in hiding or come out and be forced to rebuild your life?

It really depends on what is important to the person. Some folks get to the point where they can no longer live a lie or play a role because it is just too stressful. In this case, they have no choice but to come out.

[Ezekiel]

It really depends on what is important to the person. Some folks get to the point where they can no longer live a lie or play a role because it is just too stressful. In this case, they have no choice but to come out.

Agreed, sometimes its killing you and theres no other way but to go out. But for others, depending specially in what situation you might find yourself in, in lets say, a part of your life, you might want to delay the outting.

[Lorileah]

Let's get back to topic ok? If you want to discuss why CDs stay in the closet, start a new thread

[jenni_xx]

Also, a lot of CDrs don't neccesarily lack courage, they just have a reality that if they were to leave the closet, they would probably lose their family (same thing with a lot of gays) or business relations (small, closed minded town). Would you like to either stay in hiding or come out and be forced to rebuild your life?

A fear that I think is unfounded. Speaking as a gay man, when I came out the fear was that I would lose those who are closest to me. It didn't happen. As far as business relations are concerned, well it's none of their business and as long as I remain professional there is no reason whatsoever to lose such contacts. I do feel that a lot of the fear of loss is something that we feel ourselves unnecessarily - once you come out, people just tend to accept it or not regard it as big a deal as we ourselves perceived it to be.l In short, it's only a problem of our own making. People, others, are a lot more accepting today then they used to be.

I say that, not as an authority, but only from my own experience. A lot of the fear resides only in our own heads.

[Jamie001]

A fear that I think is unfounded. I do feel that a lot of the fear of loss is something that we feel ourselves unnecessarily - once you come out, people just tend to accept it or not regard it as big a deal as we ourselves perceived it to be.l In short, it's only a problem of our own making. People, others, are a lot more accepting today then they used to be.

I say that, not as an authority, but only from my own experience. A lot of the fear resides only in our own heads.

This is very true. 90 percent of the fear is in our own minds. It is very difficult to convince crossdressers of this simple fact because they have created such a big demon in their mind.

[nhlighthouse]

you said it in a nut shell! Love ya!

[Julogden]

You're right. It's way easier to complain that one group or another won't let us dress the way we want to than it is to get out there and put it all on the line for the world to see.

I know that many here are not fond of drag queens, complaining that they give the public the wrong idea about crossdressers, but you have to admit that life for DQ's has improved significantly in recent years primarily because they've got the guts to get out there and let the world see them, so now they're getting TV series and product endorsements. There have also been a few high-profile TS's who have done the same, although mainly ones who have been outed rather than who came out voluntarily, which has improved the way that TS's are perceived by most people.

So ideally, we need to let the world know that we're here if at all possible and also speak up and act when we hear negative stuff about trans people of any kind or encounter discrimination based on gender or gender identity. CD's need to quit bitching about what females can wear, it does nothing to help gain acceptance and turns off some possible allies, IMO.

Carol

[ArleneRaquel]

Carol,
You are so right darlin. HUGZ !

[Shananigans]

I think that the main reason that CD's want to play the blame game is that they are just unhappy with their male attire. I see MtF threads that show their femme selves dressed and presented awesome and then their guy photos look like they have lost hope in life. I have never understood why CD's dont take care to present themselves as well dressed or fashionable men in their daily lives....but yet they go through so much effort for their femme selves....

You know, I think there is A LOT of truth to what you are saying right here. I've thought about it myself before, but I never really taken the time to Really consider it... I have probably mentioned before that my SO is pretty casual in male-mode. But, en femme, things can get a little X-rated, and I could be all "Hide your kids, hide your wife" (+1 if that statement brought you back like 2 years)...but, luckily, he actually goes with my opinion on things like that. (I, on the other hand, am usually being one, because I frequently like to ask for his opinion on my outfit...only to go with my original intention, which I was going to do no matter what he said...don't you hate it when people do that lol?) En femme, he could take like 4 hours getting ready...and, being that I am kind of a brat, I will get to a point where I'm giving him a face when he is still meticulously adjusting each and every hair on his wig...or, taking 90 years to clasp his high heels...or, (God, help me because this drives me insane) randomly decide (after I've been waiting patiently for like 4 hours) to give himself a manicure.

My SO has NEVER been one to rush me to get ready...even if I probably should be rushed. I always respected that, because I "knew how guys were" about rushing girls along to get ready....beauty takes time, duh. But, turns out my SO has the patience and respect of a Saint...and, I'm kind of demanding and like everything on my own turns. But, luckily, I can psychologically validate myself and say that this is all okay...obviously...like, I know that I do it/am that way...so, like that's the most important part of therapy right there, right?...Acceptance? ;)

However, it's a whole different story when he is in male mode. I had always accepted that he was a jeans and t-shirt kind of guy. I despised him a little bit for having hair that magically styled itself without ever needing to be brushed. But, with that whole "being an adult thing"/getting ready for work, I had to do one of the most annoying things and become That girlfriend who suggested what he would wear for the day/rest of his foreseen career. So, naturally, we had to go shopping...or, he'd be wearing a Metallica shirt to work.

Shopping in the men's department was LOADS of fun. I really thought I would hate it. But, dragging my SO around the men's department was like pulling teeth. I had absolutely NO idea what the heck I was doing...I figured my SO would know...you know, being a dude and all. But, he had no clue. So, I do what I always do when I'm not sure how I am supposed to dress...I let other people tell me what to do (AKA look at the mannequins). And, once I got the hang of it...it was pretty cool. There is actually (as I am thinking about it), a lot of variety....but, not really my SO's variety. He will never in a million years do androgynous...it would never work for him to put together a male wardrobe with some feminine flare. Unless it requires fishnets, school girl skirts, and corsets...he's like, "Soooooo...yeah...this kind of defeated the whole purpose of me CDing." So, no matter what...he would have a look that was more of what I would call "female provocative"...which, I'm partial to on Cami, I'll admit. However, he would really benefit from being able to add male-designed stuff that was feminine...he could still do the look that he likes, but he might be more successful in finding things in his size/what complements his frame. And, honestly, who know how his opinion might change if the male stores started carrying skirts...and, it became a "thing." It might give him more options to really "own" his style (as someone else brought up on this thread).

But, really, I think a big reason why he doesn't care so much in male mode is because he doesn't know the first thing about male fashion. And, neither do his friends. He has a loose concept of female fashion, but it's not really fashion in the sense that I am thinking of fashion...he got the concept from Somewhere...but, let's just say that it wasn't Marc Jacobs lol.

Hopefully, as we are spending more time developing his "career attire," we can work more on just being fashionable even on a casual basis. I really do think it makes you feel good when you get polished up, but he only takes that opportunity for CDing...and, really, it should be just something you get up and do in the morning. So, maybe I can introduce him to some of the styles you posted and see what he says...I know the first words out of his mouth will be something along the lines of, "Well, if I am going to spend money on clothes, I want a corset" lol...But, maybe we can start doing some TLC for both sides and see if we can come to a happy medium on a wardrobe that would make him feel confidant and proud of himself on an everyday sort of basis.


Shanagans, the big problem isn't what we're 'allowed' to wear, but that so many crossdressers think that they feel they have the right to insist that other people (most often, we want WOMEN) to LIKE it and be attracted to us that way. And that isn't something that you can legislate.
If I can give a really good analogy, in america fat women have been insisting that 'real women have curves' when what they mean is 'real women are fat', and that all men should just accept it and learn to like it. Not gonna happen. You can't change what turns someone on anymore than you can change what turns them off. And if a woman is turned off by a guy who dresses in girl attire, there's no way you're going to make that guy 'hot' to her (other than perhaps having the guy become a billionaire, which might make her willing to overlook the crossdressing and 'close her eyes and do it for king and country' as they used to say). If you start having 95% of men dress and act like girls, then most women are going to be interested in 5% of the men who don't. Sure, some will 'settle', when they realize no other men are available, but you still can't force them to like it.
Honey, that's not just America lol...the problem with obesity is spreading around the world so fast that Michelle Obama doesn't know whether to check her ass or scratch her watch. But, all I have to say about women not really in to men wearing makeup, glitter, high heels, and feminine clothes is what in the Hell happened in the 80s? Because, I think my mom must have fallen and smacked her head on the ground because she's still head over heels for Steven Tyler...and, she's happier than a tornado in a trailer park when she's at a Bon Jovi concert. (Yeah, I was also surprised at the time that he still did concert tours). I think attraction kind of varies with what is considered attractive at the time...I mean, look at a statue of Aphrodite and you figure she's not really a whole lot to write home about...but, I've heard the Grecian people of the time were quite enamored.

But, the "real women have curves" movement Does kind of throw me off in a lot of ways. The idea is that everyone is getting bigger...and, it does seem that way...but, what kind of message does that exactly send to slender women? Are we trying to say that if you are very skinny, you aren't really a woman? We had a whole debate/paper about this in one of my college classes...and, it was really weird to me when I was reading everyone's initial paper/argument that NO ONE brought this up. People seemed to feel pressured to say that they agree that stores/mannequins (as one example) should feature mannequin models that are of a "real woman's" size (or, "more realistic). And, last time I checked, the mannequins in the stores that I go to are all a size 4...I happen to be a size 4. So, pinch me if I am not real....but, God knows I won't find my size on the rack or in that store unless I strip those mannequins down to their birthday suits. We tried to give everyone a break...eating disorders were like through the roof...but, in doing that, we also sent the message to slender girls that it's an "us against them" sort of society, and, oh yeah, they aren't real lol. But, the message wasn't just to women, as you have brought up...it made it to men, as well. And, I am probably finding myself biased, but I run into A LOT of guys that say, "Yeah, but I like a girl with a little bit of meat on her." This is usually after he has been rejected...but, I'm not sure the more "meatier" girls are going to want him much either. But, you can imagine the terrible time that my (male) friends have when going out with me and remarking on the girls they are going to try to [fail royally at] "hooking up with." So, it seems when the skinny girl turns them down, they like a girl with a "little bit of meat"...and, when the girls with a little bit of meat turn them down, she's just a bit too big for them anyway. Either way, it seems like we cycle through quite a number of [failed'] attempts at getting a girl's number before we are finally down to one that apparently met the preferred requirements of meatage. But, it could be that the guys that I hang out with are just like that...they're ex frat boys, so I feel like they've forgotten that this isn't 2010, it's not spring break, and those girls don't care about your "bro" lol. So, this could account for their variability in tastes of poundage that seems to be determined by the woman that is willing to give her the digits...who knows? But, to contrast this situation, I have female friends of all shapes and sizes...and, they never seem to have a shortage in the number of guys trying to hook up with them. And, in general, I see that people seem to date people that are of their same level of attraction...but, I am going through a situation right now with two of my girlfriend whose boyfriends are at that stage where they have been in a relationship a long time, they think that they are more attractive than they actually are, and they have this fancy notion that the only thing stopping them from being God's Gifts to Women are their girlfriends. Usually, it takes a couple of weeks of them being single for them to realize that they really aren't attractive or interesting enough to have women throwing themselves at them...and, that they were actually matched pretty well with the attractiveness of their girlfriends. And, people seem to come in all shapes and sizes...and, it seems to be that people become very similar in the size department once they have been together a number of years. Of course, this will never happen to me and my SO...we have a pact of staying perpetually young, fit, and beautiful...that other stuff only happens to OTHER people. ;) (We'll see if this pact hold true in about 20 years...I have my fingers crossed).


Just have to interject here. This is the version of the story that was being spun by the defenders of Chik-Fil-A on a freedom of speech argument and
had it been the only issue involved, I'd have agreed with it too. But the case wasn't really what he said, but rather that it gave equal rights group an opportunity to shine a light on the fact that CFA as a company had a "charity" wing that was donating company profits to organizations that were actively lobbying top ban gay marriages. He's allowed to think how he wants, and he's also allowed to do whatever he wants with his own personal profits that come from his business as a private citizen. But CFA was, as a company, taking your big gay money, and donating it to anti-gay groups. That's more than a businessman running his dumb mouth, and considering that they actually stopped doing it, the brouhaha was actually effective. As was the similar incident with Target a few years back, in fact Target has reversed their position so far that they're now advocates for equality.

To get back to the real subject at hand though, the fundamental problem whenever someone is being one, to borrow your phrase, is that they're not actually making a proper comparison. I constantly get comments whenever I post pictures of myself as a man in a skirt or dress about how I'm only going halfway or how I'm not finishing the look, because I don't try to pass. If the end game is to pass or to be convincing as a woman, then you're not simply expanding your wardrobe, you're not doing the same thing as a woman putting on jeans.

Dressing as a woman in women's clothes is great if that's who you are and what you want to be doing. But if you're actually of the mindset that men should have the same freedom to dress in a broader range of clothes like women do, then when you "pass" you're actively working against your own self-stated position. You're saying, "I have to dress like a woman to wear these things because they are only for women."

Also, Shan, I don't think you're being one for returning shoes that make your feet look big. Yes, it's not the shoe's fault because they are inanimate objects and your feet are the size they are, but clothes can draw attention or accentuate things, and so it's not irrational to feel a particular style of shoe is unflattering where others are not. That's not being one, that's coming to terms with limits of your own shape.

Well said! For once, I'm not even sure if I have a whole lot to add. I will say that what you brought up about CFA is interesting...knowing that part of my money goes to support anti-gay groups is a little disconcerting...but, is he just pissing in the wind at the end of the day? I mean, it seems pretty obvious what direction America is moving on Gay Marriage (among other things lol)...so, are these groups much of a threat? But, it gets me if I spin my own argument once more...how would I feel about eating at place that donated part of its earnings to the KKK? It's pretty apparent that no one takes them very seriously anymore...but, STILL, it's the whole principle of it all... I honestly am not sure how I feel.

I will admit that I heard about the whole CFA thing from one of my gay guy friends. In the moment of it all, we were all like, "Yeah! Screw CFA, man!" But, talking about it all really made me want a chicken sandwich...so, after our official gay stance on the CFA issue, I put on my large sunglasses, drove over to CFA, and bought myself a chicken sandwich...and, I swear that knowing that I was being bad made the sandwich the best chicken sandwich Ever lol. :( And, finally, I came to the conclusion that my love of overpriced sandwiches that are probably filled with cancer was much greater than my hate for their CEO. I was like, "Why am I worried about this dude? I just want to write to him and say, 'Dear Mr. CFA, please shut up and make me a sandwich. Love, Shan.'"

But, now, I am confused again...and, hungry. I'm probably going to fail again...but, I haven't had anything to eat all day, so I am going to justify this chicken sandwich somehow.


Hey Shan!

I'm only replying to this because it was your OP! Miss you and hope that you and CamilleLeon are doing fine and having fun!

I wear women's clothes because I want to "be" one, at least to the greatest extent I can. As others have said, GG's wearing pants are generally not wearing them because they want to be men.

The one thing I DO lament is the abysmal lack of colors that men can wear! I looking at my male wardrobe in the morning and get depressed. Green. gray, navy blue, and black suits. Hey, I can wear a colorful tie though! :sad:

Debby

I think my SO can probably relate...I'm really going to have to refer him to Donnie's post.


Now, take the opposite approach that one Kanye West tried in December of last year, and Axl Rose from the early 90s, both are known for being very eccentric and not really known for being the most level headed off stage, so despite their successes, people find it easy to criticize them for wearing skirts, cause it's just "another crazy thing they did." If a person like a Regis Philbin type or a Simon Cowell or Ryan Seacrest type wore skirts all the time on stage then perhaps more men would accept them, cause level headed successful men who are pretty well known for having pretty good judgment about things would be a voice of reason speaking for the male skirt wearing, as opposed to a person who is not really known for being of sound mind.

I'm not so sure Ryan Seacrest would get a good reception either in Kanye's skirt. I feel like Kanye knows he was wrong for that skirt...it looked like he stole the leather jacket off a member of Hell's Angels and tied it around his waist. But, I do agree with you...no one feels sorry for Kanye...but, he loves himself enough that I think he'll be okay. (That...and, he's rich).

[tiffanyjo89]

I just remembered, Dan Cathy released papers on the charities that Chick-fil-A supports, and they stopped supporting a large number, if not all, of the anti-gay corporations they provided money to. It appears that people actually peaceably talking to him instead of pulling "Dan Cathy's a homophobic closed-minded jerk who hates gays!" In fact, one person who is a widely known gay person who lead an effort that boycotted many CFA's actually met with Dan Cathy and, after realizing that Dan Cathy had changed his mind on supporting certain organizations but realizing that Dan Cathy will never, most likely, change his mind on gay marriage, decided to change his tune and stop the protests.

I said all that to say this, sure, he fought against Dan Cathy and realizes that, on their personal difference in opinion, that they just needed to agree to disagree, realized that there is a right way and a wrong way to make your point. In any thing, like male crossdressing, you're going to have people who actually hurt the effort rather than help it, unfortunately those people often don't realize it. A person who helps the male crossdressing cause is a person who, when they see that a "female only" store like Victoria's Secret or the women's department of Macy's is kinda crowded probably won't do their shopping during that time but rather come back when the store is less busy, and actually try to not make the SAs feel uncomfortable. Also, a crossdresser who likes to go to the beach in a bikini might not choose to go on the weekend when a lot of families are there. It's part of showing that he is aware that some people are uncomfortable around crossdressers or don't want to explain to their kids why "that man is wearing mommy's swimsuit."

[Shananigans]

I just remembered, Dan Cathy released papers on the charities that Chick-fil-A supports, and they stopped supporting a large number, if not all, of the anti-gay corporations they provided money to. It appears that people actually peaceably talking to him instead of pulling "Dan Cathy's a homophobic closed-minded jerk who hates gays!" In fact, one person who is a widely known gay person who lead an effort that boycotted many CFA's actually met with Dan Cathy and, after realizing that Dan Cathy had changed his mind on supporting certain organizations but realizing that Dan Cathy will never, most likely, change his mind on gay marriage, decided to change his tune and stop the protests.

I said all that to say this, sure, he fought against Dan Cathy and realizes that, on their personal difference in opinion, that they just needed to agree to disagree, realized that there is a right way and a wrong way to make your point. In any thing, like male crossdressing, you're going to have people who actually hurt the effort rather than help it, unfortunately those people often don't realize it. A person who helps the male crossdressing cause is a person who, when they see that a "female only" store like Victoria's Secret or the women's department of Macy's is kinda crowded probably won't do their shopping during that time but rather come back when the store is less busy, and actually try to not make the SAs feel uncomfortable. Also, a crossdresser who likes to go to the beach in a bikini might not choose to go on the weekend when a lot of families are there. It's part of showing that he is aware that some people are uncomfortable around crossdressers or don't want to explain to their kids why "that man is wearing mommy's swimsuit."

Well said in tying those two issues together, Tiff. As far as the whole "save the children" thing and crossdressing...it IS a sticky subject. There are a lot of issues that come with being an open CD that gets into this weird moral grey area. The two big issues seem to be bathrooms/changing areas and exposure to children. In the past, I was kind of offended that a TG person would even have a problem with using the bathroom of the gender of which he/she was presenting. But, then, people had to kind of ruin it for everyone. There were quite a number of articles in the past year about MTF CDs who were kind of taking advantage of the bathroom situation...one guy freaked a bunch of women out, got kicked out of the bathroom, threatened to take legal action...but, turns out he really was a weirdo and had a thing for "making it into the women's restrooms" so that he could take pictures of himself on the can. And, around the same time a person who identified as MTF TS was pretty mad about not being allowed to this all-female feminist festival (shame on them), but went about protesting it in the wrong way...she joined the rape survivors group and got a little explicit on her masturbatory habits as a non-op TS...so, from a group of women who already didn't like having male junk forced on them, they felt like "male junk" was once again forced on them. And, then, there's a plethora of other news stories of some MTF CDs walking around the beach topless...exposing themselves a bit more in changing rooms that I guess we're sort of family-oriented. And, you really can only take the journalists version of the story, but it's also sort of hard for me to understand how flipping the story around would make any of the behavior appropriate. So, it's an example of people who just make an ass of themselves and make the whole community look bad. But, the women with the "bathroom" thing argued that if all you have to do is wear women's clothes and declare you're feeling female to get into a woman's private area, what areas do women have to themselves? (Turns out there aren't many natal females arguing to use the male facilities, I guess). And, though a TS woman should be able to use the women's restroom, the law is kind of vague in that the perv in the dress taking pictures on the can gets free access to an area where women are vulnerable. And, unfortunately, instead of having an empathetic conversation with these women that would make them more comfortable with the community, a lot of the TG community responded with outrage. This outrage was seen by the natal women as men once again being forceful, aggressive, and disrespectful to women to the point that they felt entitled to use the facilities. And, I do think that it's true...a TG woman shouldn't be in the male bathroom. But, damn...I'll be honest...I can see a lot of creepy dudes taking advantage of the situation and ruining it for everyone. (And, they're already doing it). Then, you bring children into it. If the story about the changing rooms is true, I could understand a mother being very upset that her little girl just saw some dude walking around and letting it all hang out. I'm not even sure why this person would do something like that...like maybe go to a stall or something...but, people are weird. I honestly cannot think of a good way to solve these issues. Unfortunately, it would really have to boil down to how "passable" you are...or, being forced to undergo full SRS before being able to use such facilities. And, even then, SRS changes anatomy...it doesn't necessarily make you look more "passable" because we aren't looking up each other's skirts. When it gets down to it, it's not ethical to go about it that way. But, I'm not sure of the way to go about weeding the "legit" from the "opportunists." And, seeing a CD at the beach in a bikini...lets just say that this is a MTF CD that just isn't passing at all in a bikini...is it any worse than a guy in a Speedo? I don't see many mother's complaining about Speedos...I mean, I'd be happy if we banned Speedos, but it's just my personal preference lol. But, I can see where explaining this issues puts a stress on parents that they didn't anticipate. Ultimately, I know most TG people are good people that do no harm...but, there are people out there that represent the community that are frauds and lunatics. The frauds and lunatics get the exposure. I know that my SO could tastefully wear something to the beach (maybe not super tiny bikini bottoms), and not draw much attention for him being "shocking or inappropriate." And, I feel like that's true with most CDs. But, I empathize with these parents...I know I'd do everything I could to protect my kids from anything that I thought could threaten them...and, unfortunately, crazy people get the most exposure. My SO and I never have a problem because we go to places that college kids frequent...there aren't really kids around. And, we aren't provocative or forcing anything on anyone. Everything is always just fine...and, I think we are grounded and respectful enough that we wouldn't get chased away even if we ended up at a place with kids around. But, we've never actually had that situation, so it's hard to say if That's where our acceptance by society ends. It might...even if we're the sane ones. However, being forceful in a disrespectful way that doesn't see both sides of the issue further divides everyone. So, my stance is that I try to listen to everyone...I respect the women and parents who don't want to see it, and I respect the rights of TG people to be treated as the gender that they are. I think the best tactic as a TG couple is to gauge people's comfort level with us...don't attack, insist, or force...but, give them a reason to Want us around. My hope is that when I am a parent, I will deal with explaining life to my kids as we go through it. I was given the opportunity to live with people of completely different backgrounds and social classes...I was given every resource I needed to learn about the world...my mom backed my spiritual choices, even if she didn't agree with them. And, I kind of hope to do the same with my kids. I could have been sheltered away so that I only really had to start seeing/dealing with the world once I was out of my parent's protection...but, that wasn't how it worked. Most of my exposure to the "bad stuff" in life was through accident...my mom and I had it rough for a while, and she was forced to deal with me learning from what was going on, or just try to shuttle me off and tell me to pretend that I saw nothing. I'm thankful for all that we went through...but, she is sad she couldn't protect me from all of that to this day. I guess she was more sheltered growing up, so she thought that sheltering was the best way. But, really, I think loving your kids and taking the time to talk with them about things is the Most important thing. So, maybe my kid gets flashed by some dude in the changing room...maybe there's someone that looks to be mostly male walking around on the beach, topless, with a boob job. I would most certainly take the opportunity to let these people know that they need to consider people other than themselves (though obviously they probably don't care), but I would also write it in to one of life's many awkward moments that I would have to explain to my kid. Hopefully, we get to a good place one day that is ethical for everyone...but, also doesn't make one group feel like they are being forced by "men", or are being forced into a vulnerable position. Obviously, doing that isn't going to make the female community accept you as female. But, where does that leave "just CDs"? What if you're not TS, but you are trying to go out and pass as a woman (like my SO)? What happens here? I hope there is some brilliant person with all of the answers out there, but I haven't found him/her just yet.

[Ezekiel]

I think that the main reason that CD's want to play the blame game is that they are just unhappy with their male attire. I see MtF threads that show their femme selves dressed and presented awesome and then their guy photos look like they have lost hope in life. I have never understood why CD's dont take care to present themselves as well dressed or fashionable men in their daily lives....but yet they go through so much effort for their femme selves....

I'd say that most CDs don't take care to make themselves as presentable when in male mode because they don't really care about their male mode. They only care about their female mode.

Explaining it from my point of view, I think that the ultimate objective of every CD is to go out always crossdressed. And since CDs are in my opinion the most gullible to male/female stereotypes, as in the end what all want is to be that female stereotype they envision, when they go out in male mode (most not all) they do it in a very stereotyped way, as if males don't need to care about being pretty or beatifull.

This is my perception though, I'm not stating an absolute, just from personal experience. I'm extreme myself on this issue as I totally disregard the typical male look, and when I'm forced to go out with it, I don't care how I look. All I want is an absolute female image and yet still identify as male (I have no female persona, I'm male always), so my case is a bit particular, as I don't think that an image has to be male or female exclusively, so not sure if I would be a good example as what I truly want is the destruction of such stereotypes. However, taking this into account, you can pretty much see what I'm trying to say with this statement.

I hope my post is not confusing, I'll make things clear if needed with a second post.

[Wildaboutheels]

Endless typing and whining and hiding behind a keyboard isn't going to change the FACTS. Most men are not going to spend extra time and money on THEIR wardrobe in an attempt to dress more "snappy" because most women just do not care. This is old news. It's not going to change anytime soon. The manufacturers realize this and are not going to produce garments that few men will buy.

"Endless choices" are available to women for 2 reasons. One, women NEED them and two, women will buy them. It's simply that simple.

The pen is mightier than the sword does not apply to CDers. Less typing and more strutting is the simple solution for a non existent problem of Mean Ol' Society. Just "dress" however you want and get out there.

The REAL enemy is as close as the nearest mirror for most here.

[Ezekiel]

Endless typing and whining and hiding behind a keyboard isn't going to change the FACTS. Most men are not going to spend extra time and money on THEIR wardrobe in an attempt to dress more "snappy" because most women just do not care. This is old news. It's not going to change anytime soon. The manufacturers realize this and are not going to produce garments that few men will buy.

Not entirely true. Women do care how men look specially nowadays, and there is androgynous fashion for men out there. There is people that follow androgynous trends and do buy this kind of clothes. Its simply that most crossdressers don't care all they want is female clothes it seems.

[flatlander_48]

The problem is that most CDers are closeted and will never come out. Unfortunately most CDers lack courage

It's a lack of courage when people have legitimate concerns about their lives, jobs, homes, families, etc.?

[Ezekiel]

It's a lack of courage when people have legitimate concerns about their lives, jobs, homes, families, etc.?

I think that is debatable. Lets say, if no one ever went out of the closet, things would have never changed, and we will all be stuck with no rights. This is applicable to anything not just crossdressing. I'm not trying to say "Hey, get out of the closet" because its not easy or for some staying in closet is enough, I am just trying to point that to gain you must sacrifice sometimes.

[flatlander_48]

A few things:


It would be helpful if we all jettisoned the useless notion of Politically Correct. It serves no purpose and is used to foster divisiveness.
The fact that some women choose to wear male clothing has NOTHING to do with what I wear. It is a choice that they are now free to make. However, women wearing men's clothing has nowhere the impact of men wearing women's clothing. There's a ton of peripheral issues for men that just don't happen for women, or at least not of the same magnitude. Issues like:

Do you want to be a woman?
You are less than a man.
Are you gay?

As men, we are supposed to be the Alpha Dogs. Any hint of female presentation must mean that either you are questioning yourself or that you have outright abdicated male responsibilities and sensibilities. This leaves people in confusion.
While Society at large has never been happy with gay men and lesbians, lesbians have always been tolerated better than gay men. Lesbians sort of fly under the radar because I think it is less upsetting to the male psyche. Extrapolating, I think this is also part of the tolerance for women wearing men's clothing. People don't automatically attach thoughts of alternate sexuality to women wearing men's clothes these days (but that was probably the case early on).
As men, we must realize that acceptance/tolerance of women wearing men's clothes was not the work of a minute. The issue here is changing opinions and this takes a long time. Contrasted to discrimination illegalities, the idea is to change behaviors. These are two very different situations and our situation doesn't have much to do with legalities, except at work regarding GENDA (proposed legislation for Gender Expression Non-Discrimination Act).
While I would never complain about women wearing men's clothes as it seems pointless, it would be helpful if women adopted the same approach towards us. I'm speaking in generalities here as opposite sex couples may have some additional issues to work through first.
Although there is little in the way of female-oriented clothing for men, one of the things that can make a difference is color. I'm speaking of bright colors or colors that have taboos associated with them: pink, fushia, magenta, purple or lavender. I like to wear outfits like black pants, black turtleneck and a bright red sweater. Or purple oxford cloth shirts or purple polo shirts. Many guys that I know wouldn't be caught dead in such colors, but it's my way of bringing a bit of flair into the oft-despised realm of business casual.



I think that is debatable. Lets say, if no one ever went out of the closet, things would have never changed, and we will all be stuck with no rights. This is applicable to anything not just crossdressing. I'm not trying to say "Hey, get out of the closet" because its not easy or for some staying in closet is enough, I am just trying to point that to gain you must sacrifice sometimes.

Yes, but for many there are REAL consequences. Remember that GENDA legislation is still very rare in the US and many other places. I suspect there are many people would desparately want to live as they choose, but the price is potentially too high.

[DonniDarkness]

This has been a great thread, lets not get derailed by by pointing our "Closet Fingers" at each other. Those who choose to remain in the closet should have our support as well as those who have come out. Even if we dont agree with it personally.

So back on topic....


I really do think it makes you feel good when you get polished up, but he only takes that opportunity for CDing...and, really, it should be just something you get up and do in the morning.Yeah Shan, This is what im talking about. I see so much pessimism over Mens clothing that really seems unvalidated to me. Im not trying to convince Crossdressers to use mens fashion in an attempt to replace womens fashion in their lives....im just saying that Mens fashion is a great way to pull yourself out of that "Oh, woe is me, yet another day in DRAB" feeling....(or lifestyle it seems for some people).

There is alot of comments among this thread pertaining to men not caring about their everyday presentations and it saddens me. Im a tradesmen...There are days when i look like a bum under the freeway....But i still take the time to fix my hair and dress nice after work, even if all im going to do is watch TV with my wife or shoot bad guys in the face on borderlands2. There was a time when i didnt care how i looked as a guy and it made me sad about myself, when i made the decision to actively change how i looked everyday....or at least part of the day....My attitude and self esteem skyrocketed. Soon after that i found myself more confident when going out in Drag, its like both aspects of my identity benefited from just making time for myself to get polished up everyday.

Im not saying that every crossdresser needs to go out and buy what ever Andrej Pejic modeled last week but if your notice that your feeling "Blah" when your walking around in life, Take Time For The Whole You!


Most men are not going to spend extra time and money on THEIR wardrobe in an attempt to dress more "snappy" because most women just do not care.Well, This is really pessimistic and untrue. Here is a link to a website that my wife frequents. Shes says that they have a new thread about this every week.

http://theberry.com/2013/02/21/stuff-i-wish-my-boyfriend-would-wear-29-photos-22/

If you are happy with your style and seeing a GG wearing jeans doesnt bother you, Then i say "Be Happy!"......But if your not happy make changes...how you perceive yourself can make a world of difference.....Fashion is a great way to change that self-perception and thats why there are "ENDLESS CHOICES" in the Womens department....They have had that ish figured out long before we ever did......

Great Thread,
-Donni-

PS
Flatlander almost all of the bullet points you are stating are based on stereotypes and internalized social fears.....or just reinforce them....But i do like the fact that knowing and seeing what other people perceive of LGBT community to be, but i just wonder how much of it is really just internalized by us.

[Jamie001]

I think that is debatable. Lets say, if no one ever went out of the closet, things would have never changed, and we will all be stuck with no rights. This is applicable to anything not just crossdressing. I'm not trying to say "Hey, get out of the closet" because its not easy or for some staying in closet is enough, I am just trying to point that to gain you must sacrifice sometimes.

This is true but most crossdressers create a very large demon in their own mind that is not real.

[Ezekiel]

The fact that some women choose to wear male clothing has NOTHING to do with what I wear. It is a choice that they are now free to make. However, women wearing men's clothing has nowhere the impact of men wearing women's clothing. There's a ton of peripheral issues for men that just don't happen for women, or at least not of the same magnitude. Issues like:

Do you want to be a woman?
You are less than a man.
Are you gay?

As men, we are supposed to be the Alpha Dogs. Any hint of female presentation must mean that either you are questioning yourself or that you have outright abdicated male responsibilities and sensibilities. This leaves people in confusion.

I totally agree with this, and yes it is indeed extremely comparable to lesbianism being more accepted. A man in a skirt has always been more ridiculed.


Well, This is really pessimistic and untrue. Here is a link to a website that my wife frequents. Shes says that they have a new thread about this every week.

As I stated before, I'm of this opinion. Women prefer men who care about how they look, specially in younger generations this is more accentuated. Clint Eastwood and John Wayne era is over, and I'm glad.

What I'd like to know now, is what younger crossdressers buy for when they are in male mode. Maybe this uncaring trait to make oneself presentable when in male mode is more related to older crossdressers than to younger? Because as you know generations change, time changes and we live in a different era now.

[Badtranny]

But, damn...I'll be honest...I can see a lot of creepy dudes taking advantage of the situation and ruining it for everyone. (And, they're already doing it).

Shan your recent post is enough to fire up a whole 'nother thread.

I have a personal problem with the 'in your face' Trans movement and it's exactly because of creepers like you described. If everyone was just a tiny bit self aware, and acted responsibly, Trans people would have a lot less crap to deal with.

[flatlander_48]

PS
Flatlander almost all of the bullet points you are stating are based on stereotypes and internalized social fears.....or just reinforce them....

No, I'm stating this is the world in which we find ourselves. It is what we have to work against. By no means are most of society's expectations correct or useful. Anyway, in part this is what makes it so difficult. We have all had a lifetime to absorb this B/S.

Also, our situation is considerably different from what women experienced. I don't think there ever was the kind of resistance that women in men's clothes experienced compared to what men in women's clothes have experienced.


But i do like the fact that knowing and seeing what other people perceive of LGBT community to be, but i just wonder how much of it is really just internalized by us.

For some, these issues are deeply internalized. Others, not so much. Unfortunately it's the world that exists just outside our front doors.

[Asche]

I've got to say, the OP was like a dozen kittens in the house, and the thread is like taking those dozen kittens out for a walk! I won't even try to quote anything, I'll just line up a few of my reactions.

* "women who wear trousers are CDs" complaints: they're a lot worse than mere "whining." It goes beyond "iron my shirts"-style sexism. It's "there are wrinkles in my shirts and it's all the fault of Teh Wimmenz." A.k.a. misogyny. (And MRA-style misogyny.)

* Being seen. Speaking for myself, I wear skirts and jumpers (UK: pinafores?) almost everywhere other than to work. I don't go to any trouble to hide the fact that I'm male (which is anathema to some here at CD.com), so I think I'm doing my little bit to disprove the notion that "men don't wear skirts." I know that there are others here at CD.com who do the same.

However, "being seen" is a bit more complicated for the [male] CDers whose goal is to "pass" as a woman. There's a logical contradiction between passing and making CDing more visible -- to be visible as a CD, people have to be made aware that you're a CD, and then you're not passing any more.

* The "fit" of "women's clothes": I gave up buying ready-made clothes from the women's departments a long time ago (the only exception is tights and other underwear.) No matter what size they are, they don't fit me, and even if I could find ones to fit, the designs just look wrong on me. So I've ended up making all my own skirts, jumpers, and now I'm working on dresses.

It's given me a new appreciation for what women, especially women who don't have the ANSI standard "female" shape, go through when shopping for clothes. I counted something like 15 independent measurements you'd need to make a dress fit properly, but women's clothing has only a single scale. I don't know if this is "the" reason why so many women prefer sweats (or yoga pants) to tailored dresses, but it would be a good one.

The usual men's clothes don't have the same problem, or at least not to the same extent, because men's clothes are usually looser. Even so, if you go to a place like Brooke's Brothers and get a suit, they spend a half-hour measuring you (reminds me of Harry Potter in the wand shop :) ) and a day or two altering it to fit.

* Admiring women: I frequently see comments by M2F CDers about how they admire, value, etc., "women." Maybe it's just me being a grouch (again!), but this always grates. There are something like 1.5 billion women out there, and they're all individuals. There's no way that they can all be admirable, regardless of what standard you use -- unless the only standard is whether they are female or not. To talk about admiring, etc., "women" without any further qualification is, when you come down to it, to ignore who these 1.5 billion people actually are, as people, and reduce them to a single characteristic: their sex.

* Whether women care how men dress: I've cerainly heard women say they'd prefer if the men in their lives paid more attention to how they look. But I've also heard men call men emmasculated (I won't use the actual word) if they do much of anything to please their SOs. There's a strain in male culture of deliberately not dressing to please women in order to prove one's masculinity.

[Sharon B.]

I wear woman's clothes because I want to and for me it relieves stress. When I am dressed as a woman I feel comfortable and it feels right.

[sometimes_miss]

Now, I will admit that my SO and I have been paranoid at times going out..,worried about violence. Well, really, I'm the worried one...but, my SO was able to actually consider that people might be violent over such things...I think being raised male gives a bit of an "it wouldn't happen to me" mindset at times. It seems like me and my friends are perpetually on "rape alert"...as if every male on the street is just one flip out away from raping and pillaging. (It's actually really sad that we're taught this, but I actually have been pretty thankful of it in the past). But, the point is that we were also scared...we still are...but, we put ourselves out there. And, with doing that, we have had nothing but positive experiences...any negative experience that we have had remotely related to CDing has been from within ourselves...our community has been nothing but supportive. And, if we can get this in the middle of Alabama, I think it can be accomplished almost anywhere.
This is one very good point, one that virtually all men never even consider. You're not free to go out whenever and wherever you want without being constantly on the lookout for the creepy guy who just might be one step away from attacking you. And it's a big deal, really; it's a major difference in how men and women have to live. I mean, even here in the U.S., or other western so called civilized countries it goes on, and there are so many guys out there that really believe that any attractive woman is fair game 'because she was asking for it' by dressing so attractively. Yet, no guy would ever say that a man was just asking to be mugged because he was wearing an expensive suit.

[calebsmithxd]

How about this jacket! This style is fitted and looks incredibly like the Ladies cut leather jackets from the 80's
198541

How about these jeans....I love them!
198543

Donni, thanks for reminding me about some great brands out there. I just wish the clothes were cheaper.

Interesting thread, Shanninigans!

[Deedee Skyblue]

One of the fears of straight men crossdressing is that people will think they are not 'real men' (whatever that means). Having a very attractive female SO who clearly enjoys his dressing has to make it easier on your SO, Shananigans. Thanks for supporting us!

Deedee

[Megan72]

I am going on a limb because I am way to lazy to have read every post in this thread. Men's fashion does have its ebbs and flows just like women's clothing. It usually comes in the more formal and less casual areas, suits and blazers often change with the culture. right now the lapels on suits are being cut much thinner and more "dainty" and the pants are being fitted much slimmer for instance. The patterns and prints of men's fashion are less diverse then their females counterparts though. The differences are usually much more subtle.

To me crossdressing is a state of mind, not clothing. I can wear woman's jeans and flats and feel feminine but I can not wear men's jeans and sneakers and feel the same. I think that it would be similar for woman, just because a woman wears a pair of woman's jeans does not make them a crossdresser, to me it means that they are wearing what they want to that day. The same woman can go home and put on a cocktail dress and heels and be the same person. If I wear jeans and a tee shirt one morning to go to the store and then come home and put on a dress and heels, my persona changes to a more female one. not so with the woman I mentioned, although her personality might change a bit, the persona remains the same.

Sorry again if this has been discussed, but like I said I am too lazy...Megan