Two Spirit.

[melissakozak]

I can't help but wonder how many of us would be labeled 'two-spirit,' using the definition of trans people from Native American culture. Of course, my specific interest in this as a topic is that we exist within a specific culture and time period (now) that doesn't allow for much gender variance, and as result, a lot of us are closeted in our feelings and behavior.

Our society is slowly waking up to the realities of gender variance, but the progress is glacially slow and the tide of intolerance toward us is still great. In other words, trans folks are still discriminated against nearly everywhere we look in our society.

Imagine for a minute that our current world was as tolerant as the Native American cultures were just over one hundred years ago? Imagine for a minute that we could present as 'ourselves' without fear of repercussions in our professional and personal lives?

I mention this only because I feel strongly that WHO I am is not the problem, but society's general intolerance, ignorance and fear is to blame for so many of our personal struggles with being transgender.

Nearly every week, a transgender issue is discussed either on Yahoo!, the Today show, a major national newspaper or some other major media venue or outlet.

So, here is to all of us transgender folks who have blazed the trails for those of us living and being today, historically, and in the future....we can all feel a sense of personal pride in being who we are...it's not easy to feel pride about who we are without being trans...it's even tougher to do so BEING trans....but when I think of the 'Two Spirit' people who were once revered and admired, I can't help but feel some pride.....

[Princess Chantal]

You have to go back more than a hundred years ago, you'd have to go back before the European colonization influenced the Native culture. Eventhough there is a somewhat a rekindling of two-spirit traditional practices, I really doubt that acceptance and recognition of two-spirited people and transgendered people would ever be near the level that they once were in the native culture.. Unfortunately, many Native Americans take a familiar post-colonialism posture and wish the two-spirits would shut up and go away altogether. Therefore the high suicide rate and bashing of two-spirited especially up in the northern communities of Canada.

[melissakozak]

You have to go back more than a hundred years ago, you'd have to go back before the European colonization influenced the Native culture. Eventhough there is a somewhat a rekindling of two-spirit traditional practices, I really doubt that acceptance and recognition of two-spirited people and transgendered people would ever be near the level that they once were in the native culture.. Unfortunately, many Native Americans take a familiar post-colonialism posture and wish the two-spirits would shut up and go away altogether. Therefore the high suicide rate and bashing of two-spirited especially up in the northern communities of Canada.

You are absolutely correct in that most of the cultures have adopted the European culture of intolerance. Will Roscoe has written a fantastic book on the subject title Changing Ones: Third and Fourth Genders in Native North America. In that book, the two spirits tradition is proposed to be thousands of years old and many shamans from the Siberian region were thought to be two spirit.

What I find so striking is that the culture in which we exist seems to create the personal 'success' or 'struggle' we might have....

[Jamie001]

So, here is to all of us transgender folks who have blazed the trails for those of us living and being today, historically, and in the future....

We all need to be part of the solution, and for that to happen, it may be necessary to make sacrifices. We need to get out there and show the world that we are proud of who and what we are! Our gay brothers and sisters have been fighting a good fight and have made excellent progress. The real problem is that the majority of trans-folks/CDers are so deeply closeted that that they will never see the light of day. Cowering in the closet, is a lot easier than dealing with the issues. :sad:

[Beverley Sims]

To make inroads maybe we need pride parades once a week.
Be seen regularly and get accepted slowly as people see us out all the time.

[flatlander_48]

In the US, it would be good if we all supported ENDA (Employee Non-Discrimination Act) and GENDA (Gender Expression Non-Discrimination Act) legislation.

[Persephone]

It is always fun to praise the Native American cultures and damn the Eoropean ones, especially when descendents of Europeans do it. Comes straight out of Rousseau's "Noble Savage" of the 1700's.

But the reality is a little, itty-bitty, teensy-wennie different. There were many Native American cultures scattered across the continent in many different tribes, some of whom made war on other tribes, some of whom made slaves of other tribes, and so on. And they certainly didn't agree on how to deal with "two spirit" people. Some celebrated them, some tolerated them, and some beat the crap out of them.

So it may be wise to take the dream of the "Noble Savage" with a grain of salt.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Tracii G]

The two spirit concept is one I have chosen to take and embrace.
Why? because that most aptly describes what I am.
One thing I do find sad is we as trans people society in general forces their morays on us and we HAVE to try and change laws to have the right to be who we are.
We should not have to force people in this way to accept the fact that we are not all the same.
All I ask for or want is to be treated with respect and civility the same as any other person.

[Rachelakld]

My 2 personallities are very different people in interests and temperment, but we also combine to compliment each other.
Rachel gets a bit bitchy if she isn't let out weekly and people are getting used to her and chat to her whenever shes out.

[Kate Simmons]

The main "spirit" of being two spirited is being in touch with all of our feelings and having them work in concert. This includes our adventurous feelings and our so called "softer" feelings. Working together they make a harmonious unit which we call ourselves. The deep feelings are what drive us to do what we do and to be who we are. It's not rocket science but it does require making a serious effort to understand ourselves.:)

[flatlander_48]

The two spirit concept is one I have chosen to take and embrace.
Why? because that most aptly describes what I am.
One thing I do find sad is we as trans people society in general forces their morays on us and we HAVE to try and change laws to have the right to be who we are.
We should not have to force people in this way to accept the fact that we are not all the same.
All I ask for or want is to be treated with respect and civility the same as any other person.

If you look at the history of how various minority groups eventually got woven into the fabric of legal protections, our situation is very similar. It all starts with people being dissatisfied with the way things are and the belief that The American Dream (for the want of a better term) also applies to them. It would feel really nice if society at large would think "Oh, there's a problem. We should fix that." without us needing to force the issue, browbeat, outmaneuver, etc. But sadly, that is exceedingly rare...

[Tracii G]

If you look at the history of how various minority groups eventually got woven into the fabric of legal protections, our situation is very similar. It all starts with people being dissatisfied with the way things are and the belief that The American Dream (for the want of a better term) also applies to them. It would feel really nice if society at large would think "Oh, there's a problem. We should fix that." without us needing to force the issue, browbeat, outmaneuver, etc. But sadly, that is exceedingly rare...


Flatlander I'm the last person that wants to force someone to do anything or force my views on others.
Its like a vegan telling me I can't eat meat.Or a non smoker telling me I can't smoke.
I don't go around telling people they shouldn't do something its their choice.I may not agree with them but they have their opinion and thats fine, freedom of choice.
But having to persue legal means to get what you should have anyway is just crazy.
I don't like people that get in your face be it gay or straight vegan or carnivore.
I just wish people would mind their own business.

[kelliT]

I had pondered this also a couple weeks back. Even though I have some Indian heritage I doubt that I would be accepted as a two spirit in the Indian community. But I'm learning to love me more and express myself as a man with feminine qualities. I wear womens jeans 100% now. Wear nail polish around my wife and not embarressed to shave routinely. I grabbed one of my wifes colorful scarfs to go with my white shirt today (boho) look. I browse Pinterest for the coolest womens fashion with a female co-worker, went with her yesterday to pick out an outfit for something coming up. Although I am far from being out, and not clearly comfortable with going beyond that with my wife, I will take the little things as they come. That someplace, a foot in two worlds. Next week I made an appointment to get a style haircut and will take womens short hair pics with me. Living day by day.

[Lorileah]

Even though I have some Indian heritage I doubt that I would be accepted as a two spirit in the Indian community.

I have found the native American community to be very accepting. They are far more accepting than other communities.

[flatlander_48]

Flatlander I'm the last person that wants to force someone to do anything or force my views on others.
Its like a vegan telling me I can't eat meat.Or a non smoker telling me I can't smoke.
I don't go around telling people they shouldn't do something its their choice.I may not agree with them but they have their opinion and thats fine, freedom of choice.
But having to persue legal means to get what you should have anyway is just crazy.
I don't like people that get in your face be it gay or straight vegan or carnivore.
I just wish people would mind their own business.

Unfortunately the problem is that often the people who HAVE rights and privileges do not want to SHARE them. To them, it is a Zero Sum Game, i.e. your having rights diminishes mine. How many times have you heard that arguement used against gay marriage? To me, that is patently ridiculous.

Over the years, this same weak logic has been applied to the Women's Suffrage Movement, the Black Civil Rights Movement, the Women's Liberation Movement and the Gay Liberation Movement. It's been thrown up since the beginning of the previous century and still isn't true. All of these controversies should not have been. They just should not have happened. But it's like we can't move unless our backs are to the wall.

There is a saying:
If you want peace, work for justice.

Sadly, too many don't understand this...

[Princess Chantal]

I have found the native American community to be very accepting. They are far more accepting than other communities.

I had this view as well.... but was blown away when I heard and then seen first hand that it my assumption could be not quite as true that I thought. At present I believe that many to most of the native communities acceptance is neither more or less than any other cultures/communities

[JohnH]

I guess my signature block says it all for me!

[jedson303]

Hi --

Am finding this thread very interesting. My understanding of the "two spirit" nature is that it refereed to the shaman who was at the meeting point of two worlds -- the mundane world and the spiritual world on the one hand, or the masculine world and the feminine world on the other. The "Berdache" term was a French word that was used in a derisive manner, much as the word "fag" would be used these days to refer to a gay person. The issue of terms is a difficult one. Should we, for example, give up the term "sissy boy" or should we re-define it so that it has a dignity equivalent to "tom boy." Don't know. But this post is about something else. I have been interested in cross-dressing ever since I can remember, but not out of a desire to be a women, but to be a man/woman (or a boy/girl). To be both. I have a beard, and am not inclined to cut it off. Yet I am afraid that it would look somewhat grotesque to many people if I want to wear a dress and a colorful necklace with my beard. So I don't see myself as "coming out" to any great extent. But it is precisely the androgyny -- the neither this nor that (or both this and that) that I find interesting. I am new here. Is this a common pattern? Or am I in the wrong place.

jedson303

[Lorileah]

Two spirit persons were considered special in some tribes and some had qualities for medicine or shamanism as you say, but not all did. They basically filled a niche that was neither man nor woman (as far as how they fit in society). They may have"married" men in the tribe and/or directed families as a woman would have done. But the mystic qualities were not a given.

[jedson303]

What you say sounds pretty likely. There were lots of tribes with lots of languages and cultures, so one wouldn't expect them to be all the same. Still, the notion of a person who bridges the gap between the opposites is appealing to me, and that does seem to be a dimension of many two spirit people. In any case, what about the notion of androgeny on this site? Is it an something that many people are interested in?

[Princess Chantal]

Some people on this forum are quite picky on their acceptance of androgeny, especially when it comes to facial hair as a part of the appearance. I recall a picture thread where people found it "jarring" and suggested that the person should shave before posting anymore