Am I TS? Tough love or compassion?

[Marleena]

Anybody that reads this section have seen members asking "Am I TS?". In the old days the question would be met mostly with "tough love" bordering on cruelty from some members. Those asking mostly ended up leaving with their tails between their legs or being peeved off. Of course depending on what they asked or their background it could be easy to tell they were not TS.

One thing that does puzzle me is how some preop girls with no RLE have so many answers, do they do a lot of reading and memorizing? The postop (now women) have experienced it all. Of course the best person to get answers from for you is a gender therapist but that's a given.

So what is your approach, tough love or compassion or a middle ground?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

similar concepts apply to advice over marriage and children....i am astonished when people ask about children here and folks say "well i have no kids but...".... they might as well say ..."i know nothing, here is my advice"...
if you are not ts and have kids perhaps you can relate

The real world for transsexuals spares nobody... us, parents, wives and kids.....transitioned or not...middle path or post op...blah blah blah does NOTHING to mitigate gender dypshoria when it gets bad.....it does nothing when you hit the wall at work or look into your wifes pain...

we are fond of saying everybody has the right to an opinion, but it would help if all opinions were informed and it would help if people were more honest (with themselves) about their own situation...the way we get a better outcome here is lots of dialog and posts...the back and forth can be read by all and each person can determine for themselves what value they take from advice here.....If a person throws in something from the peanut gallery..."well i'm not ts but i think...i've not had srs but i think...", and they get feedback they dont like, thats too bad...there is data and experience, there is opinion...if it was my opinion that 2+2 =5, i'd be wrong (But i am entitled to my opinion...which would have no value to anyone)...ESPECIALLY if i tried to apply it to the real world...i'd be constantly paying $5 for my pair of $2 diet cokes...

...push back is not some personal vendetta from the tranny police...its fair to ask why someone is throwing in 2 cents? its an open forum, but do people go to internet forums on random topics and give pointed life advice to people?? ...

its difficult when non-ts people give advice on relationships to TS women going through this with their wives and families....its just not relevant...
and saying srs surgery is good and talking about what it meant is greeted by wailing and omg you are such a trannier than thou person...its ok with me...because its really up to the reader to determine what is credible and what is not.....its your gain or loss...

for people that transitioned we know that we didn't do it alone...
it was people that sat at my kitchen table and called me a fool, people that told me my first plans would destroy my life, that i better get ready for the end of my marraige, that surgery was a godsend, that i better start saving money, people that warned me that it was only going to get worse, and people that passionately shared their experience that basically saved my life..oh and of course.. "dont transition unless you absolutely have to"

for lots of reasons, it is much easier to tell when you meet a person what they are all about...that's not saying others can define me or you, that's saying that its not that hard to look at a person sitting in front of you talking about transition and have a good sense of whether transition is in their future...in here, not so much...but here we are!! so we deal with it, hopefully as best we all can...

btw marleena, in my experience, gender therapists encourage the broadest amount of support...they do not want to be gatekeepers (if they are any good)...they use these conversations as the meat and potatoes

...way too many of us live for our therapy appointments and spend time in between therapy looking forward to what they'll say or what they'll wear in the next session

[elizabethamy]

"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." Which is another way of saying that at different points in time different people and their comments will resonate, or not.

[Sara Jessica]

I think the line of demarcation has to do with whether someone is living full time as a female, RLE & beyond. Despite the fact that I am TS, I am personally stuck in between worlds, often seen as taking things too serious for many on the CD side of the fence and yet not "committed" enough on the TS side since I am digging my heels into my middle path. That makes any advice I can offer in this section limited to a certain degree. I would never comment on anything RLE or beyond other than to convey that which I have personally observed or discussed with TS friends of mine who are living that life. However, I will never hesitate to chime in for those who are struggling with their identity and what it means to their life as a whole. My take is that the middle-of-the-road approach is truly an option for those of us who are somehow able to cope with their GID without dropping a nuke on their life as they know it.

The tone in this section has become much more kinder and gentler in the last several months. There is a fine line between "you go girl" and a bit of tough love. I think this section leans towards the latter without the vitriol that was present before.

[Michelle.M]

"Am I TS?" That's a terrific question, and the very one I had on my first day of therapy. I went to therapy because I knew that the answer was not going to be found for me online or in a fortune cookie, and a professional opinion would help distill that answer and give me a clearer picture of what the next step would be.

Her answer was that being TS was pretty much a self-identified diagnosis; that if you think you are you probably are. Her role was to help me figure out what that means and how to deal with it. And that's just what happened.


In the old days the question would be met mostly with "tough love" bordering on cruelty from some members. Those asking mostly ended up leaving with their tails between their legs or being peeved off.

True, and how unfortunate for those seeking answers. I think we often forget where we came from and we forget how confusing those questions were for us.


One thing that does puzzle me is how some preop girls with no RLE have so many answers, do they do a lot of reading and memorizing?

OMG, I just spewed my coffee onto my computer screen when I read that! I actually know someone like this. She has an impressive library of TS-related books and videos and has the most dysfunctional transition I have ever seen. It almost seems as though she is deliberately sabotaging her own progress and wants to remain a pre-op (not non-op) TS for the rest of her life. She's a professional tranny, and this is her identity.

Marleena, this is a wonderful post! I'll be looking forward to reading the answers you get.


"When the student is ready, the teacher will appear." Which is another way of saying that at different points in time different people and their comments will resonate, or not.

A very fitting quote!


I think the line of demarcation has to do with whether someone is living full time as a female, RLE & beyond.

No, I don't think so. Being TS is a condition (for lack of a better word), or a personal (and for me, transitional) state of being. Assuming one intends to transition (and non-ops are also in transition, just without surgical intervention), then there is a continuum that is more or less linear, although the steps are not necessarily in the same order for everyone.

Beginning RLE is merely a step along that continuum.

[traci_k]

Sara, Please continue posting because I think there may be many more middle of the roaders. I for one often have times when I feel like my head will explode from the desire to be a woman, and yet at other times I can cope and enjoy things with my son such as camping and scouting and life can be okay with just a minor nagging feeling inside. Coming out in this forum is kind of first step for me to try and find the balance in life for me. Any words from those going through similar issues are encouraging for people like us.Thanks!
Hugs

[Rianna Humble]

I have often said that some of the best support I have had has been when people cared enough to point out that my plans needed a fresh look, or what the downside of something I was planning might be. I think that this is the kind of "tough love" that I relate to best.

One or two posters in these forums do seem to think that unless you are dismissing someone's questions out of hand, then all you are doing is saying "you go girl" - if they are honest with themselves they will recognise that they have displayed that attitude. To me that is neither support nor "tough love".

In my not so humble opinion, being starkly honest about what to expect if you really need to transition is not cruelty, nor is saying when someone appears to be too deep in a fantasy world to see what they risk doing to their lives.

One advantage of the Transsexual Forums is that there is a wide range of trans people willing to share their real-life experiences with those who are questioning. You are right that our post-op brethren and sisters are furthest down the path to wholeness, but sometimes someone who has only been in transition for x amount of months can relate at least as well to a person who is just starting out down that road.

My personal approach is to try to aim for the kind of "tough love" that I defined where it is necessary, to offer less critical support where that is appropriate but to try to avoid the "you go girl" mentality that IMNSHO is less frequently displayed here than criticised by some.

[Aprilrain]

In the old days the question would be met mostly with "tough love" bordering on cruelty from some members.

One thing that does puzzle me is how some preop girls with no RLE have so many answers

Ah the good old days...where is Kate when you need her? ; )

I have wondered about this too, where do these people get their information? Especially when it comes to coping with family issues? Until YOU have done it you have no idea how good or bad it will be. Each person and their family is different. I have had a very successful social transition largely because my wife was so supportive. I've noticed how often other people looked to her to see how they should react, even my own parents!

The 'You go girl" stuff is vapid and grossly underestimates the impact transition can have on ones quality of life good and or bad. People need to be prepared for the realities of their personal situation.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Many "problems" in forums are overstated... "you go girl" and "Trannier than thou" are not the norm...

but people that are asking are often fishing for the answers they want.....and so it doesn't take much ..

[Michelle.M]

Many "problems" in forums are overstated... "you go girl" and "Trannier than thou" are not the norm...

Well . . . really, yes it is a problem. That "You go, Girl!" stuff is nice and I think most of us don't even notice it because it doesn't seem to have much meaning except to the one who's purring and getting her tummy scratched. But that seems to annoy the heck out of those who are the most prone to espousing the "Trannier than thou" approach.

And you have to admit, they exist here. Is it a serious problem? Well, it's like an airplane crash. Doesn't happen all the time but when it does there are undesirable results.


but people that are asking are often fishing for the answers they want.....and so it doesn't take much ..

Well, I'll be the first to admit that I'm fairly brutal to those who jump on here and in their very first post start jerking everyone around with questions that seem to be slanted towards supporting some sort of wacky agenda. And I don't particularly care to coddle anyone who isn't smart enough to listen to others who are freely sharing their hard-won lessons gained from experience, either.

There's a sound reason for that (I think). This site and its forums are an excellent resource for those with questions. Here there are answers from others' shared experiences, there is community and people actually can find their way towards taking positive steps to live the life they were meant to live. Lurkers with agendas, numbskulls who don't listen and wannabe porn stars only want to destabilize that.

We've got a good thing going here! Those who just want to muck up the process need not apply.

[tanyalynn51]

When people do that kind of thing they seem to be trying to fit everything into a nice little bottle. I dont fit into any nice little mold in any other area of my life so I certainly dont as a transsexual. Anyone who thinks we all have to be the same, whether in how we are growing, what our progress is, or how far we are willing to or even can transition is demeaning us all. It isnt accepted when it comes to race or ethnicity, so why the heck should we let people do it to us either. I will not put up with it, and personally I suggest you dont. I will respect anyone's opinion given respectfully, but as Dee Snyder would say, "We're not gonna take it anymore".

[arbon]

I guess I try not to give much advice, because I don't really know the answers.

It can be confusing - some people come here and seem in so much pain and confusion. Their in a terrible place trying to understand and trying to hold onto the life they had. I relate very well to that because I was there, it was a bad place to be feeling ripped inside by the dysphoria but to afraid to move on and of what you might loose. I want to just tell them to let go of that life and get on with what you have to do and let the cards fall as they will. It could be an amazing thing if you get to the other side and be free of all that internal conflict, but you just have to let go and get on with it to get there.

On the other hand transitioning can be so hard, there is so much you have to face. I have had two transsexual friends, post-op, now tell me if they really could have understood how hard it was going to be before hand they don't know if they would have done it. That gives me a lot of pause. When I was just starting out a couple years ago one trans woman said she felt sorry for me, knowing I had to do it but also knowing the crap I was in for. I feel the same way a lot of times when I see someone starting down that path I feel sorry for them for what they are about to go through and I pray it goes easy for them. But I've known a couple that went through so much hell, who are even still in it. Sometimes that makes me think it may not be worth it, maybe they should have tried a different path.

So the short of it is I'll try and share what experience I have and just try to be supportive of whatever a person decides is the best path for them. But I don't want to give advice on what they should do.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Do what kind of thing? who is demeaning anyone?? what are you not going to take anymore?? no one is fitting you in a box..

I am sorry but what is it that post op transsexuals or full time transioned women say to you that bothers you? I mean specifically
...even if its something i said..is it possible to discuss that without drama?

you have every right to your happiness and peace of mind...only you can give that up..

[melissaK]

LOL. Love this post Marleena!

On the unqualified advice stuff: If you want ONLY qualified advice based upon identical experience it's not possible - no two moments in time are ever identical.

I love to give advice. People PAY me to give it. For a $5,000 retainer I can give an opinion about ANYTHING. And I have a LICENSE saying I'm qualified to give opinions about things I have never done or experienced or which maybe no one ever has.

My entire professional career is about learning about another persons problem, one I have never personally had.

Then I research and learn what rules might or might not apply, to remedying that problem.

I then calculate possible outcomes from various possible remedial actions.

My client picks the final remedial action to pursue, then we put the remedial strategy into motion and hope for da best.

This process is sanctioned by all of society. Maybe we break it up some, law, medicine, psychology, engineering, but the process used by each discipline is identical.

These boards are home to pre-ops and the uncertain, and they study up on their life with incredible seriousness and earnestness. They become "experts" in gender and transsexualism. And some of them are damn smart minds. I read these posts and am in awe of the intellects here. I'm not dumb, God blessed me with enough to land me on the smart side of the IQ bell curve, but some pre-op posters here smoke my ass.

And I note that a lot of girls here qualify their comments, and limit their comments to ground they have covered even though maybe they are not done with a transition (I am in that group).

And how that "am I TS" question gets answered has varied over the times I have been on and off these boards, varying with the personalities who make this forum home for a while. Today's TS forum commentators are different from last years, which are different from the 2005-2006.

And my response to the Q are you TG? If you come here and ask it, you probably have some serious TG issues and no one should assume that person is lost in a pink fog.

And are you TS? My view has changed. I have to say the term is narrower than TG, and it invites a nomenclature debate about the meaning of TS. I personally think there are TS who are not destined for the other side of the gender binary, but who are no less TS than those who are destined for RLE - SRS and life on the other side of the binary. But if you define TS as someone who is only happy on the other side of the gender binary, then such people who aren't going the RLE - SRS route would be genderqueer or gender outlaws or some other name no one can agree upon. So, to someone coming here and asking, the answer is "Maybe" "lets talk about you."

;-)

[Badtranny]

I read these posts and am in awe of the intellects here. I'm not dumb, God blessed me with enough to land me on the smart side of the IQ bell curve, but some pre-op posters here smoke my ass.


I agree with this so much. To be honest some of the smartest people I've never met are regulars here and I truly enjoy reading their scribbles.

That includes you MK. ;-)

...and Marleena, my approach is tough love but anyone who really knows me, knows that I'm a big softie. I'm a proponent of not rolling out the red carpet for new girls. I kinda think that if you aren't strong enough to deal with crabby forum cliques, then you would never survive a gender transition, and we're doing you a favor by scaring you away from a terrible mistake.

Being TS is born, but transition is a choice and I think it's probably better to be a mildly tortured dude than a delicate and fragile trans woman. (in the case of MtF of course)

[kimdl93]

As a regular here and a TG person, I sometimes observe that troubled individuals seem almost to grasp for the TS label as though it holds the answer to all their problems. Not sure why that is, but I do know that the advice of people who have been through transition can provide a crucial reality check for individuals holding romanticized notions.

[AllieSF]

I really like the way you stated your opinion MelissaK and I am like that too, or at least try to be like that. I understand when some specific questions are far outside my reach of experience or opinion, but generally, most posts here can be addressed by a lot of people who are outside the label under discussion and that includes "Am I TS?". Just because I am not TS, at least I don't think so, does not mean that my knowledge is very limited. I have a lot of "Real" life experience (not the RLE so often talked about here) in just living life as a human being, read a lot here, met several TS's and discussed their issues with them and others, as well as, joked with them about those issues with them (right BadTranny?), and can definitely offer some sound advice when someone is asking for that. I know my limits and try to comment within them.

Regarding tough love, helpful love and "Atta Girl" love: I think that they all have their place here. I also think that mixing them in a thread is good because it helps the OP and the subsequent readers get enough differing comments to help them look at the issue under discussion from several different view points, which is always helpful versus relying on one side only. I personally try to provide logical, pragmatic and common sense recommendations. I don't mind the tough love as long as it is given with respect. I strongly dislike disrespectful comments even when correct. There are so many good ways to say the same thing, and respect for others should always be a key ingredient in any reply. Name calling and talking down to someone looking for help, is totally uncalled for.

[KellyJameson]

I try to encourage people to learn the history of those who have lived or live on the TG spectrum because I think we can learn from others who have come before us.

SRS and FFS are fairly recent entries into the historical record and transsexuals did not appear after the surgery but have exsisted since the beginning of time, just as homosexuality has.

I think it is important to move away from the limiting binary based definitions of what makes someone male or female because the true answer is much more complex.

I do believe certain forms of trauma based mental illness can cause identity confusion so when I see the person immersed in a fantasy world without being aware that they are living in this world I will strongly push them toward therapy but therapy shoud be a prerequisite regardless.

When you have lived a life feeling wrong than the transsexual answer is very seductive but there is a distinct difference between running away from one gender toward another versus realizing what gender you actually are contrary to all visible evidence.

I do not trust people who have not had identity problems all their life and want to transition.

It is difficult for me to accept that someone has lived very well as male without any evidence of GD and than experienced a crisis that resulted in the assumption that GD is the reason.

I personally believe we are born this way and it leaves markings on your life because it causes psychological trauma until it is addressed.

I think having a late life existential crisis could place someone on the path of assuming it is GD where the spector of aging and death is so traumatic they run into the safety of the feminine much like how some run into religion.

I also think a drop in testosterone could affect someone who than "falls into GD" by losing that hormone that has supported their masculinity so once again there would be no evidence of identity conflict in their childhood but just the experience of the softening of their personalities that they than label as feminine which I see all the time with crossdressers.

I have no proof of this but it is something that rolls around in my mind now and than when I see certain patterns but I need more time to think on this.

I also would be concerned for someone who is having sexual difficulties and uses surgery to remedy the problem but at the same time I believe being female brained in a body that does not reflect this than very well could negatively impact your sexuality which I have seen in my own life.

I do believe there is biological basis for both homosexuality and transsexuality and somehow they are related. Homosexuals and transsexuals are biological cousins even though one is about sex and the other identity.

I'm also concerned about the obsession with beauty and see the danger of male sexual desire being married to the desire to possess beauty by transitioning combined with a desperate need for attention to replace never being loved and accepted in childhood.

I have seen an unusally high incidence of narcissism in the TG world and I wonder how this could play out with the desire to transition to be beautiful to get narcissistic supply.

I think a person has to be brutally honest about their reasons for wanting to transition because in my opinion there seems to be reasons to transition that have nothing to do with GD.

In my heart I feel many are transitioning who are men trying to exploit the benefits of being woman so they talk the talk to be able to walk the walk.

I wonder sometimes if the hate for the genitals comes from absorbing the hate of being male by their family that they have incorporated into their own identity as hate. Mothers who hated their sons because they hate men in general or wanted daughters.

I have watched the incredibly destructive power of being hated, rejected,abused and neglected in childhood and all the strange and bizarre ways this gets acted out in adulthood and I think for some this is expressed by what they call "GD" but it really is not GD.

You have to be sure that it is about identity and not self loathing caused by others.

I also worry that effeminate men that cannot handle the public scorn of being effeminate run into GD so in a sense hiding behind a skirt, but once again it is not GD

I simply do not trust much of what I see in the TG/TS world. To much seems like a masquerade or delusion. This has made me very fearful of my own feelings and thoughts and why I have moved so slowly. Seeing others made me doubt my own minds motives so I viewed myself not as being female brained but an emotionally damaged male.

I knew I was damaged but I had to fiqure out what came first, the chicken or the egg.

I also wonder how many gay men transition to have straight sexual partners so once again it is not about identity but something else.

The one constant everyone shares that makes me believe all people that come here are deserving of compassion is clearly everyone is in pain.

The question and mystery each must answer is what is the exact source of that pain that drives the motivation.

For myself I personally believe each person should have the right to decide for themselves and no one should feel the need to justify their reasons because nobody is going to do what it takes unless they are clearly motivated by pain.

gender dysporia is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma

Anyone who does not treat gender dysphoria as extremely dangerous is just plain stupid in my opinion because this S..t will kill you.

It is not a fun fantasy and will totally destroy your life.

Tough love or compassion should always be about helping others to be safe and healthy.

Two expressions of the same thing.

[arbon]

As a regular here and a TG person, I sometimes observe that troubled individuals seem almost to grasp for the TS label as though it holds the answer to all their problems.

Its our awesomeness, who wouldn't what to be a part of that? :D

But really, while I think some people are just in fantasy land there are plenty of others that I think are really grasping for a solution to the internal conflict / dysphoria they are going through more than the label. Or I at least hope they are.

The TS label thing - sometimes it still knocks me back a bit, like I can't entirely believe that is where I ended up, someone actively transitioning and living full time as a woman, can still blow me away sometimes to think about.

[stefan37]

I have always thought I was a transsexual but had no idea how to even begin to transition, much less face the fears of pain and loss. Hell as as short as a year and a half ago my wife and I had this conversation and I brought up transition. I did not think I had the courage or resolve to put myself and family through such an arduous task, and I wanted to buy a bigger sailboat. Well here I am today and I am 8 months into hrt and on my way to some end point. My relationship with my wife has been altered such that it can never go back to what it was before. I asked my therapist if I was trans and he told me "if she exists and (this was powerful to me at the time)if I allow she will emerge. In other words I would know in my heart if I was making the right decision.

I can appreciate those that take the middle ground and I salute them with the greatest respect. As hard as transition is turning out to be I doubt I would have the resolve to live in the middle. For me it would be too confusing for those I interact with daily.
I very much like the candid conversations of the difficulties involved in undergoing such a drastic change. In this way I can be fully informed and plan for contingencies I may not have thought of. I have often dreamed of having a vagina and figured the operation although risky would be fine once one recovered. I would never had known that the surgery is the hard part. The multiple dilation's that are needed daily and the need to plan your day accordingly to accommodate them seem to me to much more
difficult than the surgery itself. But I now have that information to make an informed choice when I reach that part of my life. Topics are brought up that bring to light issues I did not consider or even think of. Even when I thought I had the answer i read someone's experience and then change my approach.

I am intelligent enough to parse out what I need from many discussions and I will admit that many of the more esoteric philosophical discussions leave me in the dust, but I enjoy reading them all the same. There is great value when people discuss their experience dictating that there is only one way. I understand my transition will be different and may even in some areas go against what is successful for many, but It is mine and the way I proceed will be mine and whatever transpires I will take full responsibility for making my own choices.

[Marleena]

Just so you know I haven't abandoned this thread. The answers are wonderful and I appreciate them and letting this take it's own course. It looks like the members compliment each other with their different approaches.

The biggest difficulty I see with gender issues is the "pink fog" and "romanticizing" (thanks KellyCan) the thought of being TS. There are quite a few parallels between the MTF groupings as far as "symptoms", such as starting at a young age, feeling different, playing with the girls instead of boys, depression, anxiety, dressing as a female, etc. So one can easily say or think "Hey that's me!"

I also don't believe anybody that says everything went wonderful through their whole transition. It sends the wrong message and is not helping anybody.

[Sara Jessica]

If you're CD/TG or a "middlepather" you are far luckier than going through "TS Hell".

I will repeat my original point, that transition is really the line. One who is a CD or holding fast to a middle path is far luckier than one going through "transition hell". Then again, we on a middle path have our own circle of hell made just for us!!! ;)

Generally speaking, of course. I have my own hopes and prayers for everyone who transitions, to have it go as smoothly as possible and result in nothing but happiness. Far from hell, of course. But I understand that difficulty and heartache are prominent although this doesn't mean one cannot emerge with a very positive outcome.

[Marleena]

Good point. I was where you are for a long time Sara, fighting this. You're right it's hell..

That's another reason I rarely post in this section, I always word things wrong.:)

[Anne2345]

In the US there are approximately 30000 transsexuals at any time.

Hmmmm. I did not know this. Given the last US Census (July 2012) determined there were 313,914,040 people in the country, then the chances that I am TS are pretty damn slim.

Which is excellent news!!! I think I will sleep really well tonight as a result!!!

In fact, if I soon stop logging in here altogether, you'll know I woke up, came to my senses, regained my sanity, renewed my man-card, and joined the remaining 313,884,040 people in the U.S. that ain't got all this craziness going on in their lives. :D

[melissakozak]

All of us need compassion when listening to other peoples' life stories and experiences. Each and every one of us is unique and an individual with particular needs, specific pasts, and special circumstances, but every single one of us is still a human being who needs love and support regardless....peace, not tough love, compassion and empathy, not questioning and intolerance.....

[EnglishRose]

Thing is though, there's not aaaaaaall that many people who come in here asking. When they do, I think people usually get a good range of responses and certainly nobody can tell them for sure either way.

[Anne2345]

These boards are home to pre-ops and the uncertain, and they study up on their life with incredible seriousness and earnestness. They become "experts" in gender and transsexualism. And some of them are damn smart minds. I read these posts and am in awe of the intellects here. I'm not dumb, God blessed me with enough to land me on the smart side of the IQ bell curve, but some pre-op posters here smoke my ass.

And I note that a lot of girls here qualify their comments, and limit their comments to ground they have covered even though maybe they are not done with a transition (I am in that group).

God bless each and every such pre-op "expert" here (including you, 'lissa), for opening up your lives, sharing your experiences, and offering your respective opinions, thoughts, and feelings on substantive and, very often times, quite emotional, deep, and personal issues and topics. I can honestly say without hesitation that I have learned much and benefited greatly from you all. I sometimes feel selfish that I take way more than I give.

Obviously, however, the opinions, thoughts, and observations of post-ops here are to be given great weight and deference. They have, after all, been there done that. And I am certainly grateful to each and every one of them that takes the time and interest in helping to make the world a better, more manageable place for us all.

But just because they have arrived at the destination of the path they travelled does not mean that a pre-op tranny's opinion is of any less value or worth. From my vantage point, when you sort out and dismiss the obvious BS that invariably enters the fray, this forum provides a very good mixture of personalities, experience, view points, and opinions that work to the benefit of us all.

Fantastic response, 'lissa! Fantastic thread, Marleena!

[Debglam]

OK. Deep breath. . .

Internet advice is generally a bunch of bullshit! Anyone can tell you ANYTHING with absolutely no repercussions or responsibility for their advice at all. IMHO, the worst are the people that give absolutes, i.e. you ARE this or you AREN'T that, you MUST do this or you CAN'T do that. If you are giving advice like that over the Internet then you are a part of the problem.

The real crime about this is that people seeking advice are often desperate, confused, and really need help. I know that when I had my "awakening" or "crisis" of gender, I was in a near panic. Where was all this going? Am I transsexual or what? I ended up on another well known forum where I was ripped to shreds for asking questions! (Nice ladies. I wish them well.:devil:)

I spoke with a gender therapist but what helped me more than anything else was the advice I received from transwomen face-to-face. Maybe it is just me but while there are some women that I found helpful online, the real help that let me figure out who I am and where I fit in were the ones that sat down with me and talked about all this stuff. Even casual conversations with some of these women were helpful. (Thanks - some of you are on this forum.)

With that said, I have been in this community long enough to get the sense that most trans people try to help other trans people out. I do think it helps to hear input from all shades of trans BTW. In trying to "calibrate" myself it didn't take long to figure that I had no interest in "panty threads" and that maybe surgery was something I didn't need in order to ease my gender discomfort.


I am personally stuck in between worlds, often seen as taking things too serious for many on the CD side of the fence and yet not "committed" enough on the TS side since I am digging my heels into my middle path. . .My take is that the middle-of-the-road approach is truly an option for those of us who are somehow able to cope with their GID without dropping a nuke on their life as they know it.

The tone in this section has become much more kinder and gentler in the last several months. There is a fine line between "you go girl" and a bit of tough love. I think this section leans towards the latter without the vitriol that was present before.

I agree and it took a lot of input from friends to figure this out.

Deb

[Sara Jessica]

Good point. I was where you are for a long time Sara, fighting this. You're right it's hell..

That's another reason I rarely post in this section, I always word things wrong.:)

Marleena, you didn't get anything wrong. I was simply giving an alternative POV to expand on my point as to where to draw the "line". I guess part of that point should include that one can be a TS woman and not transition which is why I said that RLE & transition are areas of experience that a TS woman who is not in those places cannot comment on with authority.

And BTW, I think this is a terrific thread. I hope everyone feels the same way, that value was added to this section by your thoughtful post.


Internet advice is generally a bunch of bullshit! Anyone can tell you ANYTHING with absolutely no repercussions or responsibility for their advice at all. IMHO, the worst are the people that give absolutes, i.e. you ARE this or you AREN'T that, you MUST do this or you CAN'T do that. If you are giving advice like that over the Internet then you are a part of the problem.


I generally agree but I think in a place such as this, there is a genuine desire to help, both others and ourselves. Writing can be cathartic and if one puts herself out there with honesty and consistency, I think that shines through to the point where others understand they can really rely on the advice given as part of a larger circle in the decision making process (including friends in person, therapy, etc).


The real crime about this is that people seeking advice are often desperate, confused, and really need help. I know that when I had my "awakening" or "crisis" of gender, I was in a near panic. Where was all this going? Am I transsexual or what? I ended up on another well known forum where I was ripped to shreds for asking questions! (Nice ladies. I wish them well.:devil:)

Hmmmm, what forum might that be??? I have a pretty good guess.

[Leslie Langford]

I think the line of demarcation has to do with whether someone is living full time as a female, RLE & beyond. Despite the fact that I am TS, I am personally stuck in between worlds, often seen as taking things too serious for many on the CD side of the fence and yet not "committed" enough on the TS side since I am digging my heels into my middle path.

Well said, Sara, and I find myself following the same path that you are, and for exactly the same reasons.

Now that I have finally accepted the fact that I am transgendered, I am far more at peace with myself, and increasing my version of RLE insofar as having ramped up the frequency and quality of my time out in public as "Leslie" has done wonders for my mental state of being. For me, this is as far as I need to go, and provides just the right balance between my inner "femme" side and the need to maintain my inherent male persona for the sake of my family and the otherwise "normal" life that I have built around that.

I think that my wife is also slowly coming around to finally recognizing and acknowledging the compromises and sacrifices that I have made in that regard, rather than continuously repeating the worn-out mantra that while she loves me deeply and couldn't imagine a life without me, she didn't sign up to marry a crossdresser and so the burden of guilt has to rest with me.

We now have far more open communications about this topic than before, the DADT stance is softening, "Leslie" gets to go out more often without the past recriminations, life has become far more fulfilling and pleasant for both of us, and irony of ironies - I almost think that my transgenderism is now drawing us closer together as my wife defaults to a more nurturing and protective mode as she finally realizes just how much of a challenge this has been for me as well for all of my life.

Then again, getting older sometimes has its benefits too, especially when the realization hits that we only go around this block once, and that there is now more time behind us than remains ahead of us. Sometimes we just have to accept what we cannot change, make peace with our circumstances, and move on. In the end, it is better to be happy than to always be "right", or seemingly occupy the moral high ground in situations such as this.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Based on your post you are saying you are not transsexual ..
expressing your femme side in relation to your own reality is a great thing...

of course its best to be happy and at peace with yourself..but how crossdressers do that and how transsexuals do that is totally and completely apples/oranges.. thats a hard truth and is at the core of the OP
...is talking about that hard truth doable in a compassionate way? without hurting feelings?

your last paragraph mentions morals...
nobody is talking here about moral high ground....
are you implying that transsexuals posting about their transitions are staking out some kind of moralistic high ground?

[LeaP]

...is talking about that hard truth doable in a compassionate way? without hurting feelings? ...

With some exceptions, those who take exception aren't the people asking. I've had it happen in my own threads, when someone got PO'd on my behalf at someone's response - when I wasn't bothered a bit. I also see the TS members frequently put out - in advance - that they won't be bothered by certain answers.

Sometimes I think there are two entirely separate conversations going on in this forum. That among the TS members (including the questioners who wind up figuring out they're TS), and the other that contains all the conversation that surrounds the TS-TS dialog ... but which doesn't really affect the substance of the TS dialog except when it derails & closes the thread.

It's funny to think that I see gentleness, compassion, and guidance for questioners where others see harshness in the same things. Some questioners have their butts kicked, but it's almost always because the BS radar goes off in a major way. Perspectives run deeper than most credit. I had a boss once who conducted an employee survey results review in his management team meeting. When he got to the part about women feeling some level of discrimination in the company, he expressed some surprise that it could occur at all, and then expressed his relief that at least it didn't happen in HIS department (several hundred people). Every last woman in the room burst out laughing. He was floored.

Like knows like. Gotta tell ya - the non-TS are often amazingly obvious.

[Nicole Erin]

Yeah I bet it is real nice for those who might be thinking they are TS and then get ran off by the wonderful "advice" of some folks here. I am honestly glad I didn't have some forum to look at back when I was first trying to figure all this out. Back then, I would have been one of those "leaving with tails between legs". And I would have felt horrible and shunned by the TS community. These days, I do not care cause I finally learned I don't need someone telling me how to live.

Think of the noobs who are still trying to figure it out - they stumble across some Ts board, find a bunch of arguing about what a "real" tranny is with things like "If you don't do this or that, if you don't obsess over your genitals, if you get turned on by any article of clothing, or whatever rubbish, you are not real".

You know what? I have a certain article of women's clothing that turns me on. I do not obsess over my genitals, and being poor, I cannot afford to do this or that. Yet I live as a woman. I don't give a crap what some post-op or someone with too much spending money thinks.

I pay no mind to the Qualifiers.

I am trying to make myself a life in the real world, I care less if some other "real" tranny approves or not. But like i said - had i had the "benefit" of a forum telling me I wasn't real when i was still in the "nervous about buying a dress" stage, I would probably be really f****d up today. Thankfully I was able to figure things out on my own.

[AllieSF]

Thanks Nicole for another "real" side of the picture and discussion. Tough love can be wonderful, "IF" properly delivered. Too tough and a lot of people will just tune it out, or if they can't ignore it they can sometimes be negatively impacted.

[Badtranny]

Yet I live as a woman.

Yes and nobody has anything to say about it because you TRANSITIONED. I used to be at odds with the qualifiers myself, UNTIL I transitioned. There is nobody who can look at me and my life and say I'm not for real because I did the damn Dew, and the same goes for you. We are full time with legal name changes, legal acceptance, and legal protections because we are right out there in the open.

Now what if somebody is talking incessantly about 'the' transition and also talks about getting turned on by clothes, and also makes mention of enjoying the twig and berries? Are they TS or not? Personally I think prolly not, but who cares what I think, they can shut me up forever by just doing one simple thing; Transition. Somewhere along the way I got lumped in with the 'qualifiers' which is funny because my website opens with my feelings on how personal your transition is and how it should be done your own way. I have zero interest in being the tranny arbiter, my message is simply a call to action. Just do it already, or not, but living in limbo isn't really living.

So nowadays, nobody says I'm not a real tranny anymore. I've moved on to not being a real woman. ;-)

I think the real lesson here is what I will now call the BadTranny Paradox; You gain acceptance from the trans community, by not seeking acceptance from the trans community. My goal has always been to be accepted as a woman by the world at large. I never gave, and still don't give a damn about what the trans community thinks about me. In fact, I believe anybody who needs the respect of the 'community' needs to seriously examine their motives for transition. ...ooops there I go again. ;-)

[Rianna Humble]

No-one is trying to tell you how to live your life, Kathryn. On the other hand, the fact that you were more fortunate than others in this forum with your ability to earn big bucks does not make you any better or any worse than someone who had to take a lower paid job or even someone who used up all their savings after their employer laid off several hundred people.

[Debglam]

Yeah I bet it is real nice for those who might be thinking they are TS and then get ran off by the wonderful "advice" of some folks here. I am honestly glad I didn't have some forum to look at back when I was first trying to figure all this out. Back then, I would have been one of those "leaving with tails between legs". And I would have felt horrible and shunned by the TS community. These days, I do not care cause I finally learned I don't need someone telling me how to live. . .

Damn I wish there were a "Like" button! I LOVE this Nicole! The other forum I mention makes you identify "what" you are in order to join. I really had no idea WTF I "was" but whatever I selected made me a whipping boy/girl for those post op princesses. How dare I ask questions! :straightface: Fortunately, as a former boxer of dubious success, I am quite used to having the snot knocked out of me! Hurt bad nonetheless!


So nowadays, nobody says I'm not a real tranny anymore. I've moved on to not being a real woman. ;-)

Misty my friend, I can beat that! I'm considered not a real tranny, not a real woman, AND not a real man! :battingeyelashes: So much for the "middle path" but I am so flipping happy for the first time in my life that I just don't give a crap! :D (Thanks and I hope I get to see you soon!)

Hugs,
Debby

[kellycan27]

No-one is trying to tell you how to live your life, Kathryn. On the other hand, the fact that you were more fortunate than others in this forum with your ability to earn big bucks does not make you any better or any worse than someone who had to take a lower paid job or even someone who used up all their savings after their employer laid off several hundred people.

I didn't see where KM implied that she was better than someone else because she had more money. What I saw was KM addressing the comment that Nicole made about people with enough money to fully transition .. Sounds a little sour grape- ish to me. Why even throw in the " money" comment to begin with?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the strawman lives!!! go ahead and beat up the strawman...its fun and most importantly its mindlessly easy..

i honestly don't get it...what are you people talking about? i hit alot of home runs when i was just tossing the ball up myself and whacking at it...that's all it is...you are whacking at pitches you are tossing to yourself...

the question was can you discuss difficult issues with compassion and honesty?...can you read a post from someone fantasizing about going all the way to womanhood and push them to get serious without being a jerk...

and for the umpteenth time it devolves into whining about not getting affirmation from the tranny police...grow up.

does being sincerely challenged about a meaningful life issue scare you so much that you can't discuss it without feeling all beat up??

really if we are all so awful why are you here?? what do you want from me?? just tell me what to say and i'll say it..will that help?

[Anne2345]

That is some of the tough love and compassion that would actually do some good around here. It is so easy to play girl but it is hard doing what you need to do if you are transsexual. Never forget that.

Never forget that it can be hard just simply being human, Kathryn.

And if I am indeed but merely playing girl, I do not consider that to be easy, either. In fact, I do not consider anything I have done over the past year and a half or so to be easy. To be certain, playing man is becoming harder, less palatable, and more untenable with each passing month.

Yes, you have been there, done that, and know that which you speak about. But you were not always this way. True, you worked very hard to make your life work, and you apparently have done a bang up job. Don't forget, though, what's it's like to be one of us when we seek support and answers from one such as you. Tough love certainly has it's place in this forum, but no one person here is the end-all be-all of all things tranny.

[Rogina B]

Tough love certainly has it's place in this forum, but no one person here is the end-all be-all of all things tranny.

It sure seems from the responses on this thread that most of us feel this way.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm liking the badtranny paradox.

[Nicole Erin]

And again, no one tells you how to live and who you are unless you ask. If you do, don't find the answers tough just because they tell you something you don't want to hear.
By the way, most people with too much spending money worked hard to have too much spending money. Your attempt at invalidating people who can pay for surgery is ridiculous, or are you telling me how to live now?

I am not in the habit of asking peoples' opinions of me. Not once have i said, "Hmm, Joe or Jane might not approve of what I do, I better stop now as to not disappoint them". Although if someone wants to tell me how chic my outfit is, let us talk :D

Am I telling you how to live? Let me address that - alright so I am guessing you went thru whatever. Why not then start just living life instead of obsessing over all this long-winded philosophical (stuff)? There is a life beyond worrying about trannying.

I am not a "True TS" I don't think. I am a true pain in the butt and a true narcissist though.

Edit -
"Tough love certainly has it's place in this forum, but no one person here is the end-all be-all of all things tranny." HAHAHAH well, that is one way to put it. "All things tranny" :D
Also, with tough love - I thought that involved such things as a "safe word".

[Rianna Humble]

Right folks, you have had your little detour about whether someone earns too much or works hard or whatever.

Now it's time to get this thread back on track and to discuss the merits / downsides of "tough love" versus compassion when dealing with someone who is questioning.

Any further discussion about "too much money" versus "worked two (or more) jobs" will be deleted.

Rianna Humble
Moderator, Transsexual Forums

[Marleena]

Okay it looks like we averted a Battle Royale there.:)

Okay, so thanks for the great replies! What I've learned is you all have different approaches to answering the question "Am I TS?". They seem to compliment each other for the most part. I've learned that it doesn't matter if you're a middlepather, preop, or postop women we can all try to help out.

Here's my worry though.. what if we get it wrong? What if they are truly TS and this is the first and only place they have asked? I mean it's easier to ask anonymously in a forum like this. It would be interesting to see how many times we got it wrong.

As for tough love it does work because I rarely posted in this section until I was diagnosed and sure of that diagnosis. I now see I should be able to answer questions that I can relate to in this section too. I mean people can just ignore me anyways!:D

[Kaitlyn Michele]

if you get it wrong that's on you...that's tough love...
i had to answer that question...melissa had to..kathryn had to... nicole had to...anne had to...lea had to...and thousands of others had to...etcetc... now you all have to...

doctors and therapists are just trained guessers... being diagnosed at ts is no more helpful to me than having my best friends tell me i'm ts...i was diagnosed as NOT TS...TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....ugh

that's the whole point...who the F am i to tell you what you should or shouldn't do... but i know stuff..andi've seen stuff...and i did it by actions and by sharing information so i could make my own decisions...dont you want to benefit from the collective experience of other people? (whether its lovingly doled out with warm fuzzies or blasted in your face)

call yourself ts when you are not, or ignore the fact that you are at your own peril....thats a fact.

if you believe or know yourself to be ts and don't transition...then one price you pay is that you have to work harder at being confident in your own self assessment because both cisgender and transsexual people will not always reflect your true gender...
you get the benefit of never really having to face jumping off a ledge, but you lose the certainty of knowing and getting what you know fed back to you 24/7... that's just the way it is...

if the internal knowing isnt enough for you, your gender dysphoria will fester and grow...and the chips will fall....
if you continue to live a "ts lifestyle" it will dawn on you over time that you have given up alot for something that wasnt worth it...and the chips will fall...

and they will fall on you and everyone around you...as steph and so many others say...it sucks...

...

and what really really amazes me sometimes is that there are so many people here that "won" this battle....i won the battle..and i'm proud of it... we know what it means to transition...we know what it costs..and we know what we gave up for it...
and i know what its like to be "unaffirmed"
...when i told people i masturbated about being a girl they all waved me off...but i kept at it...slowly but surely i found people that shared my experience...and it taught me something about myself...

over and over we are attacked and questioned for just trying to share things we learned simply because we make people uncomfortable with how they are living their own lives...

btw..
how do you think it feels to someone that transitioned even tho they had young daughters to hear that "i didnt transition because I care about my family"....
you don't hear me whining about the lack of affirmation i get around loving my daughters.

[Michelle.M]

Here's my worry though.. what if we get it wrong?

One thing I try to do (and I really should do it more often) is this - when in doubt, be quiet and listen. Not everyone needs my advice, whether I think I have the answer or not. Sometimes people just need to figure things out for themselves.

It's the basis of personal growth, and it usually works pretty well when somebody's trying to get from here to there.

[Kathryn Martin]

Here's my worry though.. what if we get it wrong? What if they are truly TS and this is the first and only place they have asked?

If you get it wrong and take the wrong path you are screwed whatever that path may be.

If you are truly TS this is never going to be the only place you would have asked. You cannot build a life on a website which is populated by anonymous posters with very few exceptions. If you do, you do so at your own risk.

[Rianna Humble]

Here's my worry though.. what if we get it wrong? What if they are truly TS and this is the first and only place they have asked?

In the majority of cases, responses I see to someone who is questioning are couched in terms such as "It seems to me" or "If I understand correctly ...", but we do not set ourselves up as qualified medical practitioners able to give advice based purely on postings in these forums.

I am not saying that we never read someone wrongly, but what is offered here is usually sincerely meant advice based upon personal experience, plus the usual mantras of


"Consult a qualified gender specialist",
"don't transition unless you need to",
"the only person who can truly say whether you are TS is you yourself"

Even if someone is "truly TS" (horrible phrase) that does not mean that their Gender Dysphoria is necessarily at the point where they absolutely have to transition. Once the dysphoria becomes acute enough, they will seek further help.

[Nicole Erin]

doctors and therapists are just trained guessers... being diagnosed at ts is no more helpful to me than having my best friends tell me i'm ts...i was diagnosed as NOT TS...TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....ugh


It doesn't matter if you were "diagnosed" as TS or not. You decided you need to live as a woman and you took the steps to do so. Doctors' diagnose doesn't always mean much. If they were always right, my mom would not be with us anymore, about a year ago they gave her 6 months to live and she is alive and kicking.

If someone needs something to think about when trying to figure out if they are TS or not -
Tell them if they just like to dress en femme now and then for sexual fun or comfort, so be it. If they decide they need to live as a woman all the time then they should investigate the risks and possibilities. No one needs to be reminded that it will be awkward. We all pretty much figure that out on our own when thinking "Hmm, if my family knew I was living as a woman..."

You don't need a doctor to tell you if you want to live as a woman or just do the fun parts when you have time. Point is, give the newcomers the facts instead of saying "Well, if you are not willing to do this or that, you are not worthy of the TS label."

I don't need a label.

[Michelle.M]

As I read (and re-read) this thread I see something that really sticks out, and that's the almost universal disdain for labels and the equally universal use of them (although not necessarily by the same people). And that's perfectly OK when we label ourselves, but we run into problems when we try to label others.

Maybe "label" isn't quite accurate. Maybe we should simply say "identify". Labeling, or identifying, isn't actually bad, as it helps us find context for whatever it is we're doing and it helps others relate to us in a way that is consistent with our self identity.

So why all the venom over the idea of whether or not someone is a "True TS"?

I think some of that has to do with our own issues of who or what we are. I know someone who, despite being a pre-op TS and established in her own RLE adamantly refuses to call herself "transsexual" but merely "transgender". When pressed for an explanation she states that since she's not post-op she does not consider herself to be transsexual.

Yeah, talk like that in this forum would be met with vociferous and well-deserved opposition.

And that's all well and good if it stops with her; the problem is that she also transfers her own self-definition onto others in the way she deals with them. If, in her mind, she's not TS until she's post-op then how can anyone else be, either? And thus begins all of the conflicts she has in her relationships with other transsexuals. Long story short, nobody wants to talk to her because she's so wacky.

I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but I do think that the conflicts we run into on this site sometimes have a basis in a very similar dynamic. Sometimes.

And yes, there IS a definition for "True TS", but I have yet to see anyone here use it. Dr. Harry Benjamin identified 6 degrees (or types) of gender dissonance in his Sex Orientation Scale as described in The Transsexual Phenomenon. You can do a web search and download it.

It's a good read. Will it help you, personally, identify your own gender identity issues and give context to what's going on in your life? Maybe, maybe not. But in any event there's no need to have these senseless "True TS" discussions. If you think you're TS there's a very high probability that you are, and that may be true enough. And according to Dr Benjamin it's merely the degree of your dissonance and what you do about it that determines how "true" it is.

[Saffron]

Now what if somebody is talking incessantly about 'the' transition and also talks about getting turned on by clothes, and also makes mention of enjoying the twig and berries? Are they TS or not? Personally I think prolly not, but who cares what I think, they can shut me up forever by just doing one simple thing; Transition. Somewhere along the way I got lumped in with the 'qualifiers' which is funny because my website opens with my feelings on how personal your transition is and how it should be done your own way. I have zero interest in being the tranny arbiter, my message is simply a call to action. Just do it already, or not, but living in limbo isn't really living.

So nowadays, nobody says I'm not a real tranny anymore. I've moved on to not being a real woman. ;-)

I think the real lesson here is what I will now call the BadTranny Paradox; You gain acceptance from the trans community, by not seeking acceptance from the trans community. My goal has always been to be accepted as a woman by the world at large. I never gave, and still don't give a damn about what the trans community thinks about me. In fact, I believe anybody who needs the respect of the 'community' needs to seriously examine their motives for transition. ...ooops there I go again. ;-)

You're damn right, for years I was asking the wrong question, "am I a TS woman?"

Once you quit overthinking and start doing things all comes clear. Right now I don't even care if I qualify or not, I'm simply doing what's best for me.

[melissakozak]

A journey back in time is useful when we use 'labels' or 'self-identify' or 'identify as' statements. No doubt, people have been TS throughout history. People have had gender dysphoria for thousands of years. HRT, surgery, etc. are fairly new, modern ways for TS women to physically transform their bodies, and it seems this has gotten a lot easier to do over the past twenty years. A very dear friend of mine had to go to the Stanford gender clinic in the early 1990's to get HRT. Now, all you need are a few counseling appts. with some qualified therapists and medical referral and obtaining HRT is a lot easier today. I call it PROGRESS. Facial feminization surgery is also relatively new and has made huge differences in the lives of thousands of transpeople. Again, PROGRESS. SRS is now offered at many different places around the world. This is PROGRESS.

Back in time, imagine if you will, being born with the same feelings as so many of us have today. Imagine if you are born into a culture that accepts trans identified individuals but the science and technology can't make this individual physically female....BUT the culture accepts and might even revere someone who socially identifies as the opposite gender from their birth sex? This was the case with many North American tribes just over one hundred years ago...so, being trans is an internal state of affairs and how far we choose to move along physically and socially is up to the individual, culture and technology. Our technology has caught up to us; our society is barely catching on......

If being transgender was more accepted in our society, then most of us wouldn't end up with so much internal self questioning and doubt. The message on the outside is NO, NO, and NO....and the message on the inside, the still, small voice of truth in each of us, is simply saying....YES....

[Kathryn Martin]

Some people use "identifying as". The word "identify" connotes an activity, an inner activity, which means that the person has decided that they actively adopt a thought, stance or viewpoint that is different from expectations or norms. If I say I identify as a republican then this is because I do so. We usually identify as something after we have found that a particular definition of the thing accords with our own views. Identifying as is entirely subjective based on our views, feelings and pre-conceptions. So if someone identifies as transgender they do so because they say so either out loud or to themselves. In essence, people say they are a woman and then they are. The social conflicts experienced are as a result of the world, their social environment, spouses, children and others disagreeing. The basis for this disagreement lies in the immediate visceral reaction of those privy to this self-identification to say either no you are not, or more often is answered with the question: because you say so?

What Benjamin discovered, was that a medical condition exists which is measureable (he was an endocrinologist by the way) during his time through careful observation of the individuals making a claim to be of the sex that their body said they are not, lately increasingly through actual research of endocrine and physiological phenomena associated with transsexualism. He determined that transsexualism is a medical pathology which requires diagnosis. His book developed a phenomenology of transsexualism which led him to distinguish between various types of persons. His conclusion was that Type 5 or 6 were transsexuals and Type 1-4 were not because of the lack of intensity (more in his later work supported by Pauly's research).

In this sense labels, identifiers play little part in what he discovered. Rather his approach was diagnosis. The reason why he believed diagnosis was essential was to provide an objective basis for a persons claim to be of a different sex than their body obviously displayed. Both the legal, social and societal ramifications of his research are enormous and could have provided much needed relief to those who actually suffered from this medical condition. Instead what happened was that the psycho-babblers annexed the field and made an industry out of this. The only way this could be accomplished was to say to people "you are whatever you say you are" which is exactly what you suggest without any objective basis to back this up.

I really appreciate your comment.

[Marleena]

Great discussion! Here is a link to the Benjamin table that was referred to by Michelle and Kathryn. You just need to scroll down a bit in the article. Page 19

http://tgmeds.org.uk/downs/phenomenon.pdf

[Saffron]

It's infamous that the medical community is using the works of a endocrinologist as a standard. It's like using the research of a dentist for brain tumors...

Things like "TRUE TRANSSEXUAL" or that you can only be attracted to men to qualify are plainly wrong.

[Michelle.M]

WTF? An endocrinologist IS a member of the medical community, so your analogy isn't exactly apt. And that attraction to men thing was based on observation in an era when that expectation was more of a social norm than it is now (and thus stated by the patients), rather than as a requirement for gender identity. I think we can all agree that the acceptance of sexual orientation variation has become significantly more relaxed in this respect.

It's all about context, Dear. Lighten up a little, OK?

[Saffron]

Ok, then let's say a endocrinologist talking about brain tumours or surgery. He is a doctor but there's a reason why each doctor must study and practice to become an expert in a particular area. He can talk about hormones but since when he's trained or should be treated like an expert on transsexualism? Here doctors use his work as a Bible, and I think it's wrong.

[busker]

I have no answer since I don't give advice unless something is glaringly obvious because I don't really feel qualified.

Huh? You have no answer, you're not qualified, but you are suggesting that both are untrue. Marleena, I'm just asking here, NOT criticizing. Unfortunately, there are so many problems with your question. If i have a leg amputated, I can say I know what it is like to be a person with two legs. If I have breast implants and have my penis removed, I cannot say I know what is is like to be a woman . Rephrasing that would be "woman is between the ears, not between the legs".
Am I TS?" Are you asking if that means am I a person who is going to surgery to change my outward appearance? If you have surgery then you are no longer TS --you have CROSSED OVER, you are a "female". Isn't that the place where the "new you" just blends in with the women of the world and doesn't come back to cddotcom?

[Marleena]

Busker my point was I do not feel qualified to tell somebody if they are TS unless they obviously are or are not. If I looked at your signature I could say obviously you are not.

I'm just trying to get a feel for the TS section here. If somebody transitions, yes they are women. Some that have transitioned are still here and their knowledge is welcome here. I do not possess their knowledge.

[Kathryn Martin]

Ok, then let's say a endocrinologist talking about brain tumours or surgery. He is a doctor but there's a reason why each doctor must study and practice to become an expert in a particular area. He can talk about hormones but since when he's trained or should be treated like an expert on transsexualism? Here doctors use his work as a Bible, and I think it's wrong.

A medical degree is a medical degree, any specialization comes after they have obtained a medical degree. That in Spain, as in many countries Benjamin's work is considered highly relevant means that the psychiatrist and psychologist community has not highjacked the field as it has in the US and Canada. You should count yourself lucky. At least they don't subsrcibe to the "I say whatever I am and therefore I am" lunacy.

What Michelle said about sexual attraction is that among transsexuals the ordinary sexual attraction demography holds true. That is, approximately 93% of the general female population is attracted to men and about 7% is attracted to women. Draw your own conclusions.

And Marleena, the Type scale is on page at the top 16 top. None of us are qualified to diagnose transsexuality in any way. We can hold opinions but they are never determinative.

[Rianna Humble]

Busker, I'm sorry, I cannot accept your redefinition of what makes someone transsexual. We do not "become transsexual" by doing something, we are born transsexual.

There is a debate amongst some post-op trans women about whether they can just drop the "trans" appellation and I do not wish to engage with that debate, but you are wrong about post-ops never returning to this site - some have contributed to this very thread.

As someone who declares themself "just a crossdresser", you are probably right that you cannot know what it is to be a woman, but those of us who are women (albeit for pre-ops and non-ops with a body that does not match) things are different. In general we cannot truly know what it is to be a man.

[Saffron]

I have no answer since I don't give advice unless something is glaringly obvious because I don't really feel qualified.

Huh? You have no answer, you're not qualified, but you are suggesting that both are untrue. Marleena, I'm just asking here, NOT criticizing.

I think Marleena was speaking about general questions or things that anyone can answer. For example you don't need to be on HRT to know that it causes testicular atrophy and it's going to hurt. If someone ask about experiences, then only people with such experiences can really tell.

[Marleena]

Thanks Saffron, I edited the original post since the wording is bad. "I have no answer" meaning to my own question and I'm looking to see how others respond to "AM I TS"? That was the idea behind the thread to see which approach the other TS member use.

[busker]

Busker, I'm sorry, I cannot accept your redefinition of what makes someone transsexual. We do not "become transsexual" by doing something, we are born transsexual.

There is a debate amongst some post-op trans women about whether they can just drop the "trans" appellation and I do not wish to engage with that debate, but you are wrong about post-ops never returning to this site - some have contributed to this very thread.

As someone who declares themself "just a crossdresser", you are probably right that you cannot know what it is to be a woman, but those of us who are women (albeit for pre-ops and non-ops with a body that does not match) things are different. In general we cannot truly know what it is to be a man.
First off, I think that even if you realize at a young age you are gender different, you don't pronounce yourself "transsexual" because that is a word that you do not yet know. You can say mommy "I feel different, or I feel like a girl" . To me Trans means crossed over, and unless in your mind you have actually Crossed Over, it can't apply. If I fly trans atlantic, I just can't hang out in space of 42 deg lat, 53 deg long. I have got to get to London.
The observation was not mine but a person who claimed to be a transitioned person--e.g. a woman. What is a woman doing on a website about transitioning. It is like an AA member going to a bar and talking about drinking. When you have made the journey, why continue to repeat the process. Move on.
And lastly, you are correct in that you don't know what it is to be a "complete" man, but you certainly don't know what it is to be a woman because you were raised, and socialized to be a male whether you like that thought or not. changing one's stripes for spots does make one a tiger. The major adjustment that you will make will be in your THINKING. This is the way we all cope with dyswhatever. I want to be an astronaut, it ain't going to happen, so I adjust my mental frame to accommodate the reality. Each of us views life subjectively. None of us can say with any precision that they understand someone in a similar plight. I can guess pretty well how someone feels having cancer (since I have it) but not exactly. I have gynecomastia but it doesn't make me a woman nor does it give me any inkling on how women think. I just have the option to wear a bra or not as I see fit. It does however, change my view of "maleness" with regard to myself--my subjectivity.

[Michelle.M]

If you have surgery then you are no longer TS --you have CROSSED OVER, you are a "female". Isn't that the place where the "new you" just blends in with the women of the world and doesn't come back to cddotcom?

While many transsexuals subscribe to that philosophy, not all do.


To me Trans means crossed over, and unless in your mind you have actually Crossed Over, it can't apply. . . . The observation was not mine but a person who claimed to be a transitioned person--e.g. a woman. What is a woman doing on a website about transitioning.

Busker, just so everyone knows to whom we're talking, do YOU identify as transsexual, or how do you identify? I'm only asking so I can ascertain the origin of your opinion. Is it an opinion that comes from a transsexual who happens to hold this opinion or is it the opinion of someone else who only repeats the opinions and misinformation gained from sources of questionable integrity and credibility?

And just because someone is post-op does not prohibit them from sharing their experiences and staying in touch with trans issues as they may dealt with here on this site. Or are you implying that no real post-op woman hangs out here?


And lastly, you are correct in that you don't know what it is to be a "complete" man, but you certainly don't know what it is to be a woman because you were raised, and socialized to be a male whether you like that thought or not. changing one's stripes for spots does make one a tiger.

You have a pretty good track record for ignorance on this site. Your tendency to act as though the garbage information you've used to "educate" yourself is actually valid continues unabated, and you never cease to amaze me with the way you keep on objectifying transwomen and yet you somehow never learn from your mistakes. How much longer are you going to keep this nonsense up?

[busker]

Busker my point was I do not feel qualified to tell somebody if they are TS unless they obviously are or are not. If I looked at your signature I could say obviously you are not.

I'm just trying to get a feel for the TS section here. If somebody transitions, yes they are women. Some that have transitioned are still here and their knowledge is welcome here. I do not possess their knowledge.

Marleena, then they already KNOW and why would they want to ask the question initially? And, how could confirm that they are or they are not since you are not and you have no way of verifying. The problem is that it is a loaded question. It is not the same as asking a doctor if you are sick. He can do blood work or something else and confirm or deny your assertion of being ill. A person who needs to ask wants someone else to be responsible for the naming, and if it isn't true, it becomes THEIR fault. A person who asks me if I'm a patriot may be telling me more about themselves then they will find out about me. Talk the talk, walk the walk. I realize that sometimes people have self doubt--we all do at some point in our lives about something. Think of a person asking themselves if they are gay. They should be asking themselves if they get turned on by someone of their own sex. If yes, then there is pretty much the answer. So "Am I TS?" If if feel in my being that I should be a woman throughout the rest of my life, that pretty much answers the question. Another voice isn't needed to confirm that.

Then there is always self-delusion. I can't admit to myself that I'm gay, and so I'd really rather look like a woman and find a man. This is what I have recently read about one study group of about less that 100 people. 60% said they couldn't see themselves as gay, so they decided to be transsexuals. True, it doesn't represent the entire population but it is a representation of thinking by people who are in a state of gender confusion.

[Michelle.M]

I can' admit to myself that I'm gay, and so I'd really rather look like a woman and find a man.

Okaaay . . .


This is what I have recently read about one study group of about less that 100 people. 60% said they couldn't see themselves as gay, so they decided to be transsexuals.

. . . but that's utter nonsense and you know it. Please present the link or source of that "study" that you "read" or I'm gonna have to call this for what it probably is - a bold face lie.

That "transsexual as gay" nonsense is an unqualified generality used by the religious right (among others) to misinform the public and delegitimize the struggle of transgender people to simply live honest and authentic lives. You should be ashamed of yourself for bringing that nonsense here.

[Rianna Humble]

To me Trans means crossed over

Fortunately, you don't get to redefine words. We go by what the dictionary and / or the medical profession say here. Your redefinition of Trans is as wrong as your redefinition of transsexual.

I don't know what your agenda is in coming into this thread, but you will not be allowed to derail it.

[Marleena]

Interesting.. I myself have been diagnosed here so I guess have spilled my guts on a couple of occasions for nothing and I can start undoing things. Maybe reparative therapy is in order now.:)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this is a good example of how living is different than talking...

no matter who or what you are, others will disagree...others will not affirm...you will be judged and you will judge others....

in a forum of words, the labels mean so much more than in daily life...

in a forum of words the most idiotic and thoughtless statements can have the same "value" as wisdom from on high or fully tested empirical data....

[LeaP]

Labels, so-called, are funny things.

Take the type that says they don't care about labels – call them anything you want, et cetera. Turns out that that usually only works when the label fits. Apply one that's not such a great fit and you typically get quite the reaction!

Then there is the all-inclusive "non-labeler." The twist here is there usually is a label in play in the discussion, despite the protest. The plea is really to keep the label broad and inclusive. Think "transgender." How these think that categorization that excludes others invalidates themselves is completely beyond me.

Try getting medical care without labels (diagnoses). Specifically, try getting trans–related care without them. Kathryn has already pointed out the hard basis in medicine and physiology. I.e., not all of these so-called labels are soft categorizations. In fact, the boundaries around some of them are becoming clearer all the time.

[Debglam]

Kathryn,

If I am reading this correctly, you subscribe to the Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) theory regarding transsexualism. Am I correct or am I misreading your posts?

[Kathryn Martin]

Debby,

I don't subscribe to HBS theory, Diamond theory, Money theory or Blanchard theory. Benjamin did not create a theory, he created a phenomenology of transsexualism and reported phenomena he observed.

Since, apart from Diamond and Blanchard who wrote papers about the subject, he is the only one to have done so, his observations are important to me.

I hope this helps

[ChelseaErtel]

I've been quite for a while now. I've been doing some soul searching, seeing another gender psychologist, psychatrist for depression, and trying to work with my wife. One thing here that is missing is how transitioning affects the ones we love. There are some who are lucky that have accepting AND supportive wives - and that has to be a big miniority. There are even fewer who are older like me and have children to consider. I married late and had childern late so where most of my contempoaries are empty nesters - I have a 12 year old daughter to consider. I believe my family comes first, and I am second. Transitioning is entirely selfish and can have a huge negative affect on those around us. It is trememdously difficult to see a person you've known all of your life, who identified as a man, to suddenly see that person as a woman. Identity is the key for me, and the first thing that one sees in a person is their gender. Gender is a huge, if not THE biggest, part of our identities.

I present as a woman because it's me - but it only places a band-aid over the underlying problem. I do go out often presenting as a woman and enjoy the acceptance, the ablity to just "be" in the world and know that I won't blow up or be killed. It's an affirmation that I am a woman when I go out. But it's all selfish and it all done alone.

But my desire to transition (with all the pain and discomfort) is at logger heads with my desire to not hurt my family. When I transition I will lose my wife and my best friend I have ever had. She will learn to hate me. My daughter won't have her daddy any longer. Oh sure they'd get over it and go on with their lives but at what cost? It's funny, I'm prepared to lose everything, but what I struggle with and I am not prepared for is the damage I may cause. For a developing mind stress like this could cause (and this has been cliniclly documented) life long negative impacts.

So I've been attempting, for my wife and family to just be father. It's not working. I have never been so low, so depressed. I cry at the drop of a hat and it just keeps getting worse. So that is having a negative impact on my family. My wife
I've been quite for a while now. I've been doing some soul searching, seeing another gender psychologist, psychatrist for depression, and trying to work with my wife. One thing here that is missing is how transitioning affects the ones we love. There are some who are lucky that have accepting AND supportive wives - and that has to be a big miniority. There are even fewer who are older like me and have children to consider. I married late and had childern late so where most of my contempoaries are empty nesters - I have a 12 year old daughter to consider. I believe my family comes first, and I am second. Transitioning is entirely selfish and can have a huge negative affect on those around us. It is trememdously difficult to see a person you've known all of your life, who identified as a man, to suddenly see that person as a woman. Identity is the key for me, and the first thing that one sees in a person is their gender. Gender is a huge, if not THE biggest, part of our identities.

I present as a woman because it's me - but it only places a band-aid over the underlying problem. I do go out often presenting as a woman and enjoy the acceptance, the ablity to just "be" in the world and know that I won't blow up or be killed. It's an affirmation that I am a woman when I go out. But it's all selfish and it all done alone.

But my desire to transition (with all the pain and discomfort) is at logger heads with my desire to not hurt my family. When I transition I will lose my wife and my best friend I have ever had. She will learn to hate me. My daughter won't have her daddy any longer. Oh sure they'd get over it and go on with their lives but at what cost? It's funny, I'm prepared to lose everything, but what I struggle with and I am not prepared for is the damage I may cause. For a developing mind stress like this could cause (and this has been cliniclly documented) life long negative impacts.

So I've been attempting, for my wife and family to just be father. It's not working. I have never been so low, so depressed. I cry at the drop of a hat and it just keeps getting worse. So that is having a negative impact on my family. My wife sees it and I'm sure my children pick up on it too. It seems that once I accepted being TS that it like Chernobyl and not Three Mile Island.
sees it and I'm sure my children pick up on it too. It seems that once I accepted being TS that it like Chernobyl and not Three Mile Island.

[Sara Jessica]

Chelsea, your struggle seems to be at a very acute stage and time will tell which path you ultimately choose (or which path will choose you). And while I understand what you are saying about transition seeming to be selfish and that you are doing what you are doing for the sake of your wife and child, I'm sure you don't intend that the opposite POV be conveyed. Transition is not inherently selfish and under your circumstances (or under mine), it is not to suggest that those who make the decision to transition are thinking any less of their families.

Instead, transition (or not to do so) is a very personal endeavor that should consider all variables in one's life. Making a personal & informed decision is not by definition selfish.

I'm glad to see you are back here communicating again Chelsea.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

to me chelsea you are just doing the same thing you've done over the months...you are stuck in a self pity/self loathing type loop... you are putting obstacles in front of every option and not living in the day to day moment...you need progress in any direction

you are not selfish...if anything you were selfish to get married, but that ship has sailed (Mine sailed too)...i'm guessing if you are like me, you never ever thought of yourself as being in this position and truely love your wife...so forgive yourself and move on..
talking about whether its selfish or not is just avoiding the issue..

when people promise their wives to not transition, its an empty promise
...you can say you have no current plan to transition (Assuming its true) , and you'll do everything to avoid it, you being realistic is important....
..but once the bell is rung its not going to help you much to make promises..its just going to make you feel more trapped..
and this feeling you have will never improve...and you'll break your promise and its a worse outcome than before..

if you are going to be "not selfish" and stay with your family, and "keep" your daughter, what good is that if you are miserable, depressed and unable to be a productive helpful dad/husband?
what are you doing to make yourself productive and constructive in others lives?? whats going on at work?? can you continue to function there?? are you risking that without knowing it (this happens all the time)..

this one's more tough love vs sara's very compassionate response (to keep it on topic)

[Rogina B]

,I see it differently..Kaitlyn has no firm proof that Chelsea must transition in order to be happy.Chelsea has a "wife problem"caused in part by blindsiding her wife all the while knowing for years how she probably viewed gender issues,let alone her SO's NEW gender issue! Things are unsettled in that household in many ways.I suspect that a lot of them could be adjusted and perhaps if Chelsea were to be accepted by family and have the freedom to be true to herself,blowing up the household[the tough love approach suggested" MAY not be necessary. Kaitlyn,you have written a bunch of times that a person MAY NOT BE TS,just cause they say they are,so why the extreme measures with possibly a semicloseted crossdresser?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

my note was sincere and my point is the same regardless of whether this is about transsexualism or not....being miserable about gender is something that impacts both transsexuals and crossdressers...both make promises to wives that they cannot and do not keep..
both ts and cd's get so caught up in how they are feeling, and so caught up in doing anything to save their marraige that it renders them blind to the impact they are having and how they are their own worst enemies.

its the constant negative circling thinking that needs to stop...

what is extreme about pushing attention in a positive direction?
Me saying "what are you doing to make yourself productive and constructive in others lives" was a question...it was not rhetorical...

[busker]

Okaaay . . .



. . . but that's utter nonsense and you know it. Please present the link or source of that "study" that you "read" or I'm gonna have to call this for what it probably is - a bold face lie.

That "transsexual as gay" nonsense is an unqualified generality used by the religious right (among others) to misinform the public and delegitimize the struggle of transgender people to simply live honest and authentic lives. You should be ashamed of yourself for bringing that nonsense here.
link o he full text
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2894986/
Arch Sex Behav. 2011 April; 40(2): 247–257.
Published online 2009 December 29. doi: 10.1007/s10508-009-9579-2
PMCID: PMC2894986
NIHMSID: NIHMS172372
A Further Assessment of Blanchard’s Typology of Homosexual Versus Non-Homosexual or Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria
Larry Nuttbrock,corresponding author Walter Bockting, Mona Mason, Sel Hwahng, Andrew Rosenblum, Monica Macri, and
Measured categorically, 68.5%, 12.4%, 16.8%, and 2.1% of the 571 MTFs were classified as homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or asexual, respectively. Measured along the continuous scale of androphilia, 8.6%were low,19.1%were intermediate, and 71.8% were high. Measured along the continuous scale of gynephilia, 63.7% were low, 20.8% were intermediate, and 14.7% were high.

I was in error about the percent which seems to be 76%
Current scientific controversies: different treatment strategies section of this paper
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697020/?tool=pubmed
Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2008 November; 105(48): 834–841.
Published online 2008 November 28. doi: 10.3238/arztebl.2008.0834
All of the 21 patients who received a new diagnosis of GID in our clinic up to mid-2008 (aged 5 to 17; 12 boys, 9 girls) had psychopathological abnormalities that, in many cases, led to the diagnosis of additional psychiatric disorders. As a rule, there were also major psychopathological abnormalities in their parents. The "motive for switching" among the 15 adolescents in the group was mainly a rejected (egodystonic) homosexual orientation (see figure), the development of which would have been arrested by puberty-blocking treatments.


Busker, I'm sorry, I cannot accept your redefinition of what makes someone transsexual. We do not "become transsexual" by doing something, we are born transsexual.

There is a debate amongst some post-op trans women about whether they can just drop the "trans" appellation and I do not wish to engage with that debate, but you are wrong about post-ops never returning to this site - some have contributed to this very thread.

As someone who declares themself "just a crossdresser", you are probably right that you cannot know what it is to be a woman, but those of us who are women (albeit for pre-ops and non-ops with a body that does not match) things are different. In general we cannot truly know what it is to be a man.
This would suggest otherwise
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2697020/?tool=pubmed
Dtsch Arztebl Int. 2008 November; 105(48): 834–841.
Published online 2008 November 28. doi: 10.3238/arztebl.2008.0834

Neurobiological genetic research has not yet convincingly shown any predominant role for genetic or hormonal factors in the etiology of GID (1).
Even among children who manifest a major degree of discomfort with their own sex, including an aversion to their own genitalia (GID in the strict sense), only a minority go on to an irreversible development of transsexualism (6). Irreversibility of the manifestations, however, is considered to be an indispensable requirement before the diagnosis of transsexualism can be made, or any body-altering treatments initiated. In England and Canada, in accordance with this view, hormonal treatment or surgery is not recommended until the patient’s somatic and psychosexual development is complete.
. Though prospective studies are lacking, a consensus of opinion holds that gender identity disorders in children and adolescents are often associated with serious emotional and behavioral problems and with a high psychiatric comorbidity (1, 8)
Multiple publications have concerned a possible traumatic etiology of gender identity disorders (14) and an overlap of the psychopathological findings in GID with those of borderline personality disorder (15, e11, e12, e13), although there is some controversy on the latter point (16). A profound disturbance of the mother-child relationship can often be empirically demonstrated and is postulated to be a causative factor (e14).
Other authors, in line with psychoanalytic theory, do not attribute the desire to belong to the opposite sex to any prior trauma. Rather, they postulate the formation of a classic neurotic compromise, in which the child symbolically achieves a symbiotic fusion with the loved parent by switching genders

The irreversability is only diagnosed after one reaches puberty so it seems that one cannot be born a transsexual but one can be born with GID.

[Kathryn Martin]

The irreversability is only diagnosed after one reaches puberty so it seems that one cannot be born a transsexual but one can be born with GID.

How you draw that conclusion from the research is hard to follow. How does the time at which the irreversability has been diagnosed determine when the condition started to exist. Your conclusion is not supported at all. The correct conclusion would be that transsexualism as a condition only occurs in 2.5 - 20 % of those cases reviewed by this paper. Since you cannot diagnose irreversibility until onset of puberty the existence of the condition cannot be conclusively diagnosed until that time. It has nothing to do with whether you were born with it or not.

[Rogina B]

my note was sincere and can even stand the bad paraphrasing used to make a point....

and my point is the same regardless of whether this is about transsexualism or not....being miserable about gender is something that impacts both transsexuals and crossdressers...both make promises to wives that they cannot and do not keep..
both ts and cd's get so caught up in how they are feeling, and so caught up in doing anything to save their marraige that it renders them blind to the impact they are having and how they are their own worst enemies.

its the constant negative circling thinking that needs to stop...

what is extreme about pushing attention in a positive direction?
Me saying "what are you doing to make yourself productive and constructive in others lives" was a question...it was not rhetorical...

I really do agree with you on this one and I am sorry that I didn't mention the productive and constructive part..I have said it before that some people enjoy a "pity party" rather than take the steps to possibly make the situation better. If someone doesn't take the bold steps to include their offspring into the picture and really teach all of them about understanding"their Dad's new problem" then they aren't really committed.All this self pity is just a dramatic show as I see it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

busker its good you are posting in this particular thread...why you read posts here is beyond me tho...

you are a good example of why both tough love and compassion are so important to transsexual women...

we are marginalized, dehumanized and disbelieved
...invalidated over and over by cisgender people like you...

the humanity of living as a transsexual is incomprehensible to cisgender people.....its incomprehensible to you
what could possibly motivate you to come to this forum? this particular thread? why are you here? are you hoping to convince me that perhaps i'm just a gay man??

you will never believe in us so that's your issue...but despite your earlier assertion to Marleena about qualifications, we are qualified to share our experience

..over many years we have learned to communicate amongst ourselves to fight the fight with a medical community that only very slowly accepted and validated our problem as something worth solving..the conversations we have here are the same ones girls had in the 60's and 70's over kitchen tables after driving half way around the country to meet just one doctor or one person that truly understands...

... and the medical community continues to kick and scream as evidenced by the twisted interpretations of a study...

[Michelle.M]

. . . Blanchard’s Typology of Homosexual Versus Non-Homosexual or Autogynephilic Gender Dysphoria

First, thank you for providing the source.

Second, Blanchard's "research" has been exposed as flawed, and that's putting it mildly. Blanchard has been debunked by the psychiatric community for his faulty scientific research methodology aimed at pathologizing transsexual people.

He started with an agenda that divided male-to-female transsexual people into two different groups: "homosexual transsexuals" who seek reassignment surgery to romantically and sexually attract other, ideally heterosexual, men, and "autogynephilic transsexuals" who are sexually aroused at the idea of having a female body. Although this makes distinctions between transsexuals it does not place any of these distinctions in any sort of context. In short, he reduces all of our relationships to paraphilia, and no notions of gender identity are entertained or tolerated.

As further evidence of his haphazard process you might notice that he did no work at all with transmen.

It has been suggested that his "research" was largely aimed at satisfying his own transgender fetish; his findings are very much in vogue with fetishists.

Scientific criticism of his "research" and theory argues that his theory is incomplete and poorly representative of MtF transsexual people, reduces gender identity to a matter of attraction, is non-instructive, and that the research cited in support of the theory has inadequate control groups or is contradicted by other data.

Another note - his theories have led to support for reparation or conversion therapy which itself has been debunked to the point where not only is it not practiced by legitimate therapists it is actually illegal in many jurisdictions.

His disciple Ken Zucker followed Blanchard's methodology and, long story short, was eventually disciplined by the university where he worked and essentially warehoused by shifting most of his courses to another department within the university and leaving him with nothing to do and no opportunities to publish, thus effectively ending his career. Similar fates have befallen others who have followed in his footsteps.

In short, he remains at odds with the psychiatric community and his efforts to pathologize transgenderism in the previous DSM have been overturned in the soon-to-be-published version. His ideas are, at best, antiquated and have been superseded by more advanced studies and legitimate, productive therapies.

[Marleena]

@ Busker please read this: http://www.wpath.org/documents/IJT%20SOC,%20V7.pdf It should give you more clarity and is considered the holy grail for treating TG/TS people world wide. I can tell you that the studies and papers by Blanchard are dismissed here in Canada as antiquated, biased and flawed. He has no credibility.

[Sara Jessica]

Regarding Chelea's situation, it was mentioned that the wife was recently blindsided and as such, I think it's fair to assume that Chelsea herself is also in that acute phase of identity in that coping with the weight of it all is quite new. Transition might be in the cards, just as holding to a middle path could be. But until there is peace in the decision making process, either choice will likely be met with a counter-balance of misery to some degree.

A certain amount of resolve is needed no matter which path someone takes for it to be sustainable. I truly think that both emotion and enormity are interfering with the prospects of making that important long-term decision any time soon. I totally agree with Kaitlyn in that misery as a male is not an acceptable option. Now does not seem like the best time to commit long-term to existing in both worlds.

[Marleena]

you will never believe in us so that's your issue...but despite your earlier assertion to Marleena about qualifications, we are qualified to share our experience


Thanks Kaitlyn. I feel more comfortable on sharing my own feelings and experiences although they are quite limited compared to many of you. Then there is always the "ignore" button if one chooses to use it on me.:D

[Michelle.M]

busker its good you are posting in this particular thread...why you read posts here is beyond me tho...

Kaitlyn, I am SO glad you posed that idea. After reading that I asked the same thing.

Busker, I have finally figured out why you're here and what makes you tick.

You and I have had a few exchanges like this before and each time you post like this you display what I used to think was profound ignorance, but now I realize that I was wrong.

You've got an agenda.

You said in another post that you identify as gay, and your signature line says that you're a crossdresser. You continually post remarks that have all the earmarks of being heavily influenced by $**male porn. You rely on garbage research that only serves to support your own sense that YOU may suffer from "autogynephilia" (a diagnosis which is of itself a garbage doctrine) because it supports your view of transwomen. And because it seems to be true for your own life you do everything you can to vicariously transfer all of these attributes to the members of this site.

As a result you objectify and fetishize us, and then you put up a fight whenever we we start exhibiting signs of humanity and act like normal, straight (for many, but not for all of us - and not that it matters, but it's different than you), sane and real people who are not preoccupied with kinky sex, and that just blows the whole illusion that you value so much.

And now it makes sense! You have a tranny fetish and so you hang out where the girls are, and you simply can't accept that we're not like you and that we don't fit your fetishized view of us.

That's it! You're a therapy case who hangs out here in the same way that pedophiles lurk at playgrounds. I can't believe I never figured this out before!

[ChelseaErtel]

Thanks for all (or most) of the replies.

As so often before I sit here thinking and I am resolved to move forward and transition. I have a time-line, I know what surgeries I want, I have work all ready and prepared to transition me as female when I go 100%.

I am admitting to my wife I can't exist as a male any longer. I think I could present as male for a while longer while I transition and allow my daughter to be a little older before we tell her, but I'm not convinced that is the best plan. My therapist thinks keeping this from my 12 year old is best for a few years, but I just don't really know. She already senses the stress and tension so....

I can't not be me. I can be both for a while longer as longer while I transition but this going back and forth is so hard. I know it's going to end my marriage. My wife can't even tolerate if I dress at home alone. If she even thinks I've been Chelsea she gets very upset. I don't blame her, but I was hoping she could come to accept it eventually in some way. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

I have to talk to my therapist about my being very frank with my wife and see if that is the best route. I have been following my therapist's guidance with regards to my wife, but I think a change in direction is in order. After couple's therapy my wife was visibly upset and hasn't spoken to me since. We discussed my sexual orientation, which I have discovered is more fluid than she would like. My dreams are always with me as a woman and at times with a man (mostly non-sexual). I have never had anything intimate, in my dreams, with a man unless I'm a woman. I suppose that is why I have never been fond of sex.

So, tough love or compassion? I think I find they both exist here and both are equally necessary.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

that's huge progress chelsea...especially recognizing that the situation is already fraught with tension and stress...

in the short term even baby steps can have a huge benefit to your own feelings which will flow through to everyone else...that's what i mean by doing constructive things...

sometimes by concentrating on real and tangible steps (And that includes the workplace) it can focus the mind...you can make a plan..feel like you have a future ..reduce your own stress and get the satisfaction of progress ...and you can flow that back to others by how you act day to day...people will notice your better frame of mind and it makes a hard situation just a little less hard..

[ChelseaErtel]

Progress for me, but for my wife - not so much.

I expect some turbulent times over the next few weeks. I expect she is going to look on it as my refusal to suppress myself and that I've chosen "me" over family. I'm bracing myself. But I can't lead her on and I cannot continue to be this unhappy and depressed.

I went out today (as me, Chelsea) for lunch and to pick up some new tights. I feel so much freer and more at peace. One thing that makes me go "hummmm" is since I started tucking (well over a year ago), I have found that is the only way my "man" bits are comfortable - up and out of the way. I look so forward to GRS.

[busker]

Kaitlyn

You've got an agenda. Sorry to disappoint you but NO.

You said in another post that you identify as gay, You rely on garbage research

Wrong on all counts. I don't have an agenda, not gay (show me the thread please) The National Institutes of Health don't sponsor garbage medical studies, the studies were NOT Blanchard but a NEW study by Nuttbrock (2012 published) done in NY state 25 years later (not in Canada)--obviously you did not read the study or all 20 pages,, the other study published in Germany 2008. The German's definitely don't go in for nonsense medical studies.

And in fact, the only reason I replied to Marleena's post was that I thought is was in the CD section where she usually posts ,and didn't realize that when I pressed "today's posts" I also got everything if I was logged in. Only after I had replied did I see where it was. sorry to disappoint you. I never come here intentionally because I know what happens.
If I have anything that bothers me, it is the rudeness that you express. I'm sorry if you are offended, but I do trust medical studies as I'm no expert in anything. Relying on one's intuition isn't a good substitute. It tends to lead in circles.
It will be a cold day in hates before I return to this section.

[ReineD]

Please take the time to watch this. It only takes four minutes.

r0cN_bpLrxk



@3:41 - (replace philosophy with trans + a suffix of your choice):

Onlooker: You are TRIVIALIZING philosophy!

Wittgenstein (angrily): Philosophy is just a by-product of misunderstanding language! Why don't you realize that!

Onlooker: Oh dear. He can't bear disagreement, can he.

[ChelseaErtel]

Reine: I like that video, spot on.

[Kathryn Martin]

The German's definitely don't go in for nonsense medical studies.

Oh honey I wish I could agree with you. I am German by extraction and Germans can research the same nonsense as any other nationality. They just look more serious when they do it.

By the way Blanchard hypothesis on autogynephilia was published in 1989 so that would make it 23 years.:germany:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the thing that makes the studies nonsense is the NO nonsense truth that practically every transitioned transsexual woman looks at them and shakes her head in total incomprehension...

that's because we transitioned...

that's because we found in transition that it had nothing to do with our sexuality or some supposed mental illness... and btw that does not preclude the idea of sexualizing oneself as a transsexual, it doesnt preclude that many of us suffer all kinds of secondary issues...

the perspective of the study is cisgender ...its colored by the cisgender bias that we don't really exist...i mean how could we? it makes no sense...so to the cisgender person, sense must be made of us ...

[Aprilrain]

It will be a cold day in hates before I return to this section.

tell me that's a promise!

[Rogina B]

I think it is spelled with a "d" rather than a "t",but perhaps he was too focused on the word "hate" to get it right! lol




I went out today (as me, Chelsea) for lunch and to pick up some new tights. I feel so much freer and more at peace. One thing that makes me go "hummmm" is since I started tucking (well over a year ago), I have found that is the only way my "man" bits are comfortable - up and out of the way. I look so forward to GRS.
There are many people on this diverse forum whose existance is not "penis based".There are many that feel better in the "tucked position" and some even employ duct tape to do so,as they enjoy it that much..However,all of that is a long way from genital surgery and all that goes with it.Being at peace and happy being yourself while you are out and about is no indication that you will be happier with permanent life changes.You have so much baggage to shed along with the guilt from doing so,it is doubtful to some of us that your plan will really bring happiness to you for the rest of your life.

[Marleena]

I think that qualifies as tough love.

Is it a full moon today by any chance?:D

[ReineD]

Reine: I like that video, spot on.

@3:02 - Replace "pain" with "trans + the suffix of your choice":

It makes no sense to speak of knowing something in a context where we cannot possibly doubt it. Therefore to say, "I know I am in pain" is entirely senseless. When you want to know the meaning of a word, don't look inside yourself, look at the uses of the word in our way of life. Look at how we behave.

Therefore all the argument about who is TS and who is not is rather meaningless. A transwoman is a transwoman by virtue of what she does (lives all aspects of her life as a woman) and not by what she says or intends. One's intentions can last a lifetime without culminating in any action.

It does not matter to me whether someone's motive to transition is rooted in severe GID or a euphoric desire to live an idealized or sexual life as a woman. Once the decision is made, the body altered, the name changed, the life altered, the transwoman is living her life as a woman. If she has made a mistake, she will soon know it and no one but herself will suffer the consequences. No therapist or counselor, and certainly none of us here can peer so deeply into someone's mind and heart to determine what will make this person happy in the long run.

We are complex creatures.

So why all this arguing? The only real danger is perhaps encouraging someone to transition who may not be TS.

[Rianna Humble]

Please take the time to watch this. It only takes four minutes.@3:41 - (replace philosophy with trans + a suffix of your choice)

So, is this to say that you prefer tough love or compassion?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

well Reine that is the reason...it only matters what you do...but how to decide what to do??

when do you think EXACTLY (exactly is a moment...transition is real...it is not fluid) is the best time for a person to realize they've made a mistake? how will they know?? who will they have shared it with? how is their wife impacted? their job? their health?
when does the transsexual realize EXACTLY that they blew it...that life passed them by while they came up with excuse after excuse? how will they know??

of course these things can be discussed in a therapy environment...

but talking it through here is the safety zone...nothing really bad actually happens here.. it is the perfect place to get slammed for having a foolish view of transition, or to be told that what you are experiencing is different than what others have experienced...
you can work it out here before you pay the price of working it out in the real world...you take what you learn here into therapy with you and drill down further...

whether you like it or not, people are well served to pay attention to people that have been through transition or that are going through it...notwithstanding a couple bad actors over the years, there is not a mean bone in the bunch of women that post here...

if someone does not like what another says......you still get to do what you want... and you reap whatever consequences happen..

btw ..
failed transitions hurt all transsexual women... my best interest is at odds with the Charles Kane's of the world (he went back, see? reparative therapy can work!!)
its at odds with people that "try out" transition because it just cements the disbelief of others that see the failed transition (they stopped why can't you?)
..its at odds with people that go on and on about needing to transition and dont(because they are not transsexual)..

and unfortunately even the middle pathers are somewhat at odds with my interests because "after all, if that person could stick it out as a man, why couldn't you???" (thats what my wife said after her one couples therapy group)...

we can all be supportive and friendly but we don't all have to be on the same page...

This is the best place to argue (if you can even call it that)...i'd call it sharing experience and pointed observation..which leads to better and more informed decisions with regards to what you do... and since what you do is all that matters..
the "arguing" serves a good purpose...

[LeaP]

The only real danger is perhaps encouraging someone to transition who may not be TS.

I suppose that would be a danger, if it occurred, but I don't see that happening anyway.

The demonstrable danger, and one reason to discern who is or is not TS is that without help, too many go down to destruction.

[ReineD]

So, is this to say that you prefer tough love or compassion?

I think it is compassionate to demonstrate tough love, as long as it is done in a way that will respect the person and make no assumptions about their identity ... since none of us can ever peer that closely into someone else especially from behind the anonymity of the internet. To me, tough love means honesty and objectivity. Just the facts, ma'am. No assumptions. Trouble is, not everyone is objective. And the facts are that some people need to transition because they have severe GD, while others want to transition for other reasons.

Kaitlyn, how to decide what to do? Certainly not by posting on the internet. I'd personally seek professional help although the internet is useful in terms of asking about other people's experiences. It can help a confused person formulate more precise questions for themselves or to discuss with a professional. But at the same time I'd keep in mind that someone else's experience might not apply to me no matter how successful or unsuccessful it is, and I also cannot glean everything about a person's experiences just based on what they choose to disclose in a forum.

I've been in a personal situation where I sought answers that I wanted to hear as opposed to the ones that I needed to hear. This, to me, is the most dangerous place to be, especially when I surrounded myself with people who told me what I wanted to hear. :p

If someone asks, "How do I transition", this is a fair question and it is easy to answer. But if they ask, "Should I transition", none of us here is qualified to answer this.

Lea, from everything I've read in this forum's section and elsewhere, if a person has severe GD she won't be able to keep a lid on it just because she is not actively encouraged by someone else to transition. Her need to be who she is will be too strong for that. Honestly I think the best possible advice anyone can give in this forum is to seek professional help if someone honestly does not know what to do.

:2c:

[emma5410]

Seeing a therapist is essential. I saw one for almost eighteen months before I went full time. She was an immense help but at the end of the day it was not something I freely chose to do. It was a act of survival. Without her help it would have been more difficult but it would still have happened. Now two months in and although I am very happy living as a woman I am struggling with things. I am suffering mood swings and living 24/7 can be a strain. It is hugely different from doing it part time when you can revert to a male appearance when things are embarrassing or difficult.
I spent a lot of time on this forum, and others, over the last couple of years and learnt a lot. I learnt from those offering tough love not from those so quick to accept everything a poster says at face value and giving *hugs*. Transition is an incredible thing to undertake. Sometimes in the rush to be nice and positive I think that is forgotten. Before giving people encouragement to transition we should think long and hard about what we are doing.
If the GD is severe enough then no post, however tough, on a message board will stop you transitioning.

[Kathryn Martin]

A transwoman is a transwoman by virtue of what she does (lives all aspects of her life as a woman) and not by what she says or intends.

Reine, I would so totally agree with you. The difference between women and transwomen is that the former is a woman because of what she is and the latter is a transwoman because of what she does.:D (Just kidding)

On a more serious note :facepalm: you have only addressed the social, that human interaction aspect of this and left physiology and biology standing in the Reine (oops in the rain).

If you accept the brain sex vs. body sex dichotomy, then the "what she does" gets taken to a deeper level of analysis. In that area you are looking for developmental gestures the body performs for instance during gestation embryonic development and beyond. Organs are formed in part by their anticipated function not just expression of genes.

Additionally most recent research in the field of Evolutionary Development biology. It addresses the origin and evolution of embryonic development; how modifications of development and developmental processes lead to the production of novel features, such as the evolution of feathers;[/URL] the role of developmental pasticity in evolution; how ecology impacts development and evolutionary change; and the developmental basis of homoplasy and homology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_developmental_biology#cite_note-1).

For instance recent research uncovered that temperature variations in the nests of turtles can determine female or male sex of the hatchlings. There is an increasing understanding that phenotypes are not uniquely determined by the genotypes. Meaning that a phenotypical change can occur first before the gene development follows.

In this context (and please understand that I am only just beginning to crawl into this) phenotypical variations can occur through environmental factors for instance which means that genetic expression is not entirely pre-determined. Biologically this is the "what you do" paradigm - I think.
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_developmental_biology#cite_note-2"]

[Nicole Erin]

I have some tough love, it isn't gonna go over well though -
NO ONE is transsexual! Noooo not one. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble. I know it is not what people want to hear but there are no transsexuals in the world.

[kellycan27]

Now ya tell me after I spent all that money ! Some friend you are.

[LeaP]

Okay… now do you want to explain what that means? Because I don't get it.

[Nicole Erin]

Now ya tell me after I spent all that money ! Some friend you are.
Look, I am sorry OK? What do you want me to say?

[Kelly DeWinter]

Wow, some of the posts here really read a gender racisim , re read some of the posts, Why can't people have an opinion is they are not white,black,red,m,f,bi,ts,cd,tg etc) ?, Why can't people have an opinion on an issue that someone else experiences ? It. not like the experience is so unique that a person cannot relate on some level. Rember Soylent Green is PEOPLE !

[Nicole Erin]

I always wondered what it tastes like. Is that weird?

[Aprilrain]

Now ya tell me after I spent all that money ! Some friend you are.

I've been meaning to tell you but you're so hard to get ahold of sometimes! sheesh


Why can't people have an opinion on an issue that someone else experiences ?

What's that saying? Opinions are like...... Never mind.

Experience trumps opinion every time.

[Michelle.M]

Wrong on all counts.

Not so fast, pal. You've some 'splainin' to do.


I don't have an agenda

Really? Let's take a walk through memory lane, shall we?

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?150262-How-many-of-you-are-straight-but-flirt-with-men-anyway&p=2437159&viewfull=1#post2437159

Here, you beat that "transsexual as gay" drum, and you were challenged on it. And you even admitted that you were doing your "research" on $**male porn sites.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?178908-Do-you-think-pretty-T-girls-make-men-question-their-own-sexuality&p=2924491&viewfull=1#post2924491

Here, you continued on the same theme and even took it a step further by displaying your homophobia and transferring your own sexual confusion onto transwomen, just like you did here:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?150262-How-many-of-you-are-straight-but-flirt-with-men-anyway&p=2437368&viewfull=1#post2437368

And despite the efforts of others posting in that thread (and every thread) to help you understand what is the real story with respect to transwomen you just can't get it through your head, can you? You're just not willing to listen to actual people who are negotiating actual transitions; you'd rather rely on porn, transphobic garbage science and urban legends.

Yes, I think your purpose for being here is clear. You want to objectify and fetishize transwomen through misinformation and sexual prejudice. Nothing you've done in any other thread seems to deviate from that.


not gay (show me the thread please)

It was this, in this very thread:


Then there is always self-delusion. I can't admit to myself that I'm gay, and so I'd really rather look like a woman and find a man.

Okay, perhaps I misunderstood.


The National Institutes of Health don't sponsor garbage medical studies . . . The German's definitely don't go in for nonsense medical studies.


Of course they do. Happens all the time. That someone got suckered into writing the check is unfortunate for them, but that doesn't legitimize the study.


And in fact, the only reason I replied to Marleena's post was that I thought is was in the CD section where she usually posts ,and didn't realize that when I pressed "today's posts"

I'm not buying that at all and I don't think anyone else is, either. You read enough to respond to this thread, and anyone (even you) can plainly see that the other posts here have nothing to do with crossdressing.


I never come here intentionally because I know what happens.

Not buying that, either. So far "knowing what happens" hasn't stopped you from openly objectifying and insulting transwomen on this site. Or are you really unable to learn from your mistakes?


Relying on one's intuition isn't a good substitute. It tends to lead in circles.

Nobody who has chimed in so far is relying on intuition. We're relying on actual experience living lives as transwomen who are either in or who have been in transition. That you are so darned stubborn as to discount that and to continue to demean us (and in our very own forum), and to do so in such a determined and unyielding manner is reprehensible.


It will be a cold day in hates before I return to this section.

And thus we end with the classic busker coup de grace! In every case the pattern goes like this -

- You arrive to the thread and say the same dumb thing you said last time, openly insulting transwomen.

- You are challenged on your misinformation, but you stick to your transphobic guns anyway

- You keep on fighting until you're up against the wall and have no further arguments

- Then you get all butthurt and try to turn your rebuke back on the rest of the forum with some sort of passive-agressive whine.

And for those keeping score at home, here's what happens next (as it always does) -

- You'll lay low for a while, a couple of months or so, then you'll resurface and we'll do this all over again. At least that's how it's gone the last few times you did this.

BUT WAIT, there's good news! If you could just start paying attention to what ACTUAL TRANSWOMEN are telling you about their lives instead of trying to make everyone else fit to your fantasy idea of what we're all about then you might actually learn something and be a better person for it. Then we could all be happy together!

Whaddya say? You up for something along that line?

[ReineD]

Michelle, I feel that I must come to Busker's defense here. I don't want to clog up this thread by quoting everything you've said (in this thread and the others that you link to) and commenting line by line, but just generally:

In the older threads you linked to, Busker was asking questions in the MtF CD section and not here. A lot of people on the other side have questions and they are not to be slammed for this.

It is also true that many TSs switch from being gynephile to androphile after they transition. Some say it was because they mistook their wanting to be friends with women combined with testosterone induced lust for heterosexuality... and after they've been on hormones for awhile they discover that they are more sexually attracted to men. I totally buy this.

Someone made the point earlier in this thread that the percentage of lesbian transwomen should match the percentage of genetic lesbians. In other words, very few transwomen are lesbian. I buy this too.

Busker, in his older posts that you took issue with, was referring to Blanchard's studies, even though he could not remember which study he had read. It is true that Blanchard believes that transwomen are androphile, and the gynephile transitioners are doing this for fetish. (I'm not agreeing with Blanchard here, just stating what Busker would have read, and what he was questioning).

In no way do I take any of Busker's statements as saying that he is gay.

If Busker goes to T-porn sites, this is not an indication of his sexuality. I go to those sites too, I've been to all kinds of chat rooms, gosh I've been everywhere in my quest to make sense of all of this and I assure you that I am not a gay crossdresser. lol

Although most of us who frequent this side of the forum know that sexuality and gender are separate, we mustn't become upset with others who are still struggling with that concept.

And last, I have often - OFTEN - clicked on a thread listed in "What's New", and posted a response without realizing where I was. When I was a mod, I even did it in sections that I was modding but was not supposed to post in. Ask the Admins. I used to get my wrist slapped. lol. So it is entirely believable that Busker did this.

I came to Busker's defense because he said that he wouldn't be back in this thread.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Reine posting on the internet is an excellent tool to help people communicate about transsexuality..you are right we are not mind readers...

the idea that transitioned women come here and gatekeep or try to mind read minds is a strawman and it harms all of us... some of our more incendiery posters are gone... telling somebody to challenge themselves more, telling them that every ts we know has dysphoria get worse, sharing detailed information about what we've all seen over and over, and telling them not to transiiton unless they feel they have to is not mind reading or telling anyone what they are...its common sense

people are in various levels of distress, and they don't always have access to other transsexuals to support them.... therapists are neccessary and helpful...but they don't pick up the phone at 11pm...they don't patiently listen to long inner diatribes and personally relate to them...ts women have a long history of finding other ts women to help them..

none of us are pros...but i bet i know more about transition than half the therapists out there...and as you point out all the matters is what you do...so it follows the best advice should come from a practical standpoint...and thats what i see all the time here...
and if people cant parse through one of our 20,000 posts between us and find the sincerity, the knowledge, and the value there, its on them....

finally, as you say all that matters is what you do... that's frankly a good description of the ts attitude...

then logically, since all that matters is what you do, what is the point of women that have transitioned affirming others that havent lived as women... its meaningless ..
btw

...my answer is nots meaningless..i don't buy the linked video as analogous to our situation..we are not sitting here having a I"m ts , no your not, yes i am discussion, but its brought up as if it happens all the time..
...we actually are talking about what we are doing much more than playing mindgames about imponderable thoughts

its crazy...we come here and post that its all about what you do... and people come here and say (paraphrased) "hey stop reading minds because its all about what you do"...

[melissaK]

.ts women have a long history of finding other ts women to help them.....

That was and is my experience. I started exploring my TS issues BEFORE the INTERNET. It was way harder. I can't even remember how I found my first leads.

I read psychology books back in the stacks of university libraries, I read Christine Jorgensen's book without checking it out (book check out was a face to face encounter with someone you knew), and so I did it on the sly. I couldn't dare be caught reading these things. And so I built my knowledge a little at a time - but when you feel so out of place and learn what you know will make you feel so much more in place, you become a bit driven to do what you have to.

And somewhere in there I learned about a magazine called Tapestry. I tracked down their subscription address. I opened a PO Box on the sly so my own mailman wouldn't know. I was terrified because I had to use my own name to get the box. I had the magazine sent there.

What you learned was there were "personals" adds in the back. I've forgotten the abbreviations now, but they would say things like "WM CD 4 talk" or "WMTS preSRS 4 advice," and you'd write the editor and they would forward your letter to the person so things stayed anonymous. If you wanted you could later on tell the person your direct mail address.

It was through one of those adds I became pen pals with a a couple MTF TS who were actually going through SRS.

We wrote each other big long letters just like the big long posts here.

So the point is, Kaitlyn is absolutely right about there being a long history of us seeking advice from kindred souls.

[lavistaa62]

you get the benefit of never really having to face jumping off a ledge, but you lose the certainty of knowing and getting what you know fed back to you 24/7... that's just the way it is...


if you continue to live a "ts lifestyle" it will dawn on you over time that you have given up alot for something that wasnt worth it...and the chips will fall...

and they will fall on you and everyone around you...as steph and so many others say...it sucks...




I chopped a lot out of your initial post for this question but could you talk some more about your second to last paragraph (ts lifestyle one)? Are you talking about the stigma of appearing awkward- in a "guy who looks gross or seems off" sort of way or....?

[Aprilrain]

I don't want to answer for Kaitlyn but I took it to mean, someone who was not really TS but transitions because of some (ill) perceived advantage. To this person being TS would be a "lifestyle" decision rather than a quality of life decision or even a life or death decision.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

yes april

i'm thinking about quality of life over the long haul...not just for us but for our familys
is transitioning or not transitioning going to leave you with a sense that you lived a full life? give you a better quality of life?? its a hard question...its a risk...the rewards are unknown...
and its human nature to be a poor long term decision makers...so i've been commenting here that its WORTH IT to hashout/argue controversial ideas..its tough love OR compassion, its AND...

people argue harder over which sports team is better!!!

In hindsight that comment was not as clear as it could have been..sorry about that!

[Kelly DeWinter]

I have some tough love, it isn't gonna go over well though -
NO ONE is transsexual! Noooo not one. Sorry to burst everyone's bubble. I know it is not what people want to hear but there are no transsexuals in the world.

... LOL sure there aren't . Let's just deny the Higgs Bosen particle while you are at, they will NEVER find it ! ..... but wait ......................


I always wondered what it tastes like. Is that weird?

I think it would taste like Tofu ?




If Busker goes to T-porn sites, this is not an indication of his sexuality. I go to those sites too, I've been to all kinds of chat rooms, gosh I've been everywhere in my quest to make sense of all of this and I assure you that I am not a gay crossdresser. lol

..... reine , I'm shocked ... porn ? You ! .... you knoy theres probably a 12 step program for that .

Although most of us who frequent this side of the forum know that sexuality and gender are separate, we mustn't become upset with others who are still struggling with that concept.

..... too late for that .




My main 'issue' with threads on the internet, is that people hold you to your previous posts like you have no right to alter your opinion. Last month you might NOT have liked grapes, This month you changed your mind and DO like grapes, but that doesnt mean NEXT month you will like grapes. People have the right to change their mind, in fact they often do.

[JessicaM1985]

Kinda funny that this thread will be where I make my first post in about a year. :lol:

On to the topic at hand:

I discovered this forum via a google search because I had come to realization that I was at least a crossdresser. I wasn't entirely sure exactly what I was when I got here and it was my hope that perhaps I'd find some people that had walked down that lonely, yet paradoxically well-traveled road of doubt, shame, and insecurity. Surely my TV/TG/TS brothers and sisters would understand me right? After all, we all share the same common bond of looking, presenting, and (in the case of TS) even realizing that we in fact ARE the gender opposite of our anatomic sex. There should be that common camaraderie that we all see apparent in t.v. and movies where people who face a similar struggle band together for the common good of all. After three months here and at other forums this fantasy came crashing down in a hurry. I realized that the trans community is similar to just about any other community out there. You have your good people, your bad people, your know-it-alls, your weirdos (in a good way), your weirdos (in a very creepy, almost chaser way), and just about everything in between. In short, we are people first and just because we happen to share commonality of confronting our personal issues with our own gender identity does not mean that we will get along with each other swimmingly and we are just as likely to hate ourselves and others just as much as any other group out there. Case in point

An incident culminated in my leaving this forum when a certain well known TS here outright called me a $h3-male and told me to consider pornography because I was considering staying as a non-op, and further implied that is all non-op TS are good for. As horrible and blatantly bigoted as that person is, in her cruelty she did good that was unintended though I loathe to credit her for anything at all. I learned to get off of the computer and go out and live life. I have been living RLE and full-time as the woman I know I am for about a year now. Finances and other things have hindered my ability to really move forward with actively transitioning, however the experience has done things for me. I have learned how to be respectful and kind to my fellow trans community members, while at the same time giving them complete and sound advice about things like coming out to friends/family/coworkers/etc., and while I do not lie and give it to them straight, that harsh experience I received here also tempered me some. I have to remember that people are still human beings and just because I may have more experience than them does not mean that I have the right to look down at them or lose patience with them. I learned to take a middle road on things.

There are also other experiences that comes with being openly transgender/transsexual that you can only vaguely describe to people, but they cannot grasp until they go through it themselves. One of those things is to learn to not let your struggles become your identity. When I first came out, any trans-related humor instantly became offensive to me, I spent much of my time trying to censor and shut down others around me because my feelings were so fragile. In hindsight, the comments that made me leave here, while bad, are pretty much on par or lighter that for what I hear from people in real life. So it would probably explain why I took it so hard, instead of doing my typical palm showing and walking away. While gaining my RLE by living full time as a woman, I discovered that I am in fact TS, however the prospect of surgery scares me because surgery in general scares me. The idea of people taking sharp blades to some of my most sensitive body areas causes a fear in me that rivals the absolute disgust and hatred I have for the male anatomy I was given.

While I was here, I gave plenty of reasons why I may or may not have wanted SRS (all of them true), they were not at the root of my problem. My problem was that I was afraid and too chicken to admit it. Then of course there's that horrible thing that prevents anyone from doing the right and sure thing; doubt. It is a weird thing knowing that you need something, but your mind makes you second guess it anyways. I need to transition if I'm ever to remove that perpetual internal dissonance that festers in me, but I still get that fearful doubt of "but what if I'm wrong? What if this is just a body issue thing and I'm mutilating my body over nothing?" Doubt is an evil thing that hides behind the mask of caution, paralyzes any decisive action, and it takes a LONG time to actually conquer; if at all. I'm still not out of the woods on it. I still question all of my motives, even if I know that I have thought it through. I have made some considerable progress in that regard, even in the relatively short time that I've been getting my RLE, but I'm still a young padawan that has a long way to go. My personal experience with this is something I frequently share with other transwomen (transmen do not really contact me often, which is sad because I have a lot of love for them too) in hopes that they keep in mind the fact that just because they have doubts does not mean they are not transsexual, nor does it mean that they are. It simply means that they are afraid of something and they have to confront that fear if they are to move forward.

This ties me back to the main point; experienced TS should give facts and not opinions. Tell people the truth, but NEVER use it as a blunt weapon of malice. Provide people the information they need to move forward in a loving and accepting manner. Just because a person has truth with them does not mean that it is billy club to go whacking people over the head with because "hey, truth hurts right?" It sure does, and so does the aluminum bat that sits in the corner of my room. Just because I have it doesn't mean that I can pick it up and start batting for .300 to every Jane and Jill out there.

Having said that, saying nothing at all is misguided apathy, bordering on cruelty, and akin to sending someone blindfolded and with raw meat tied around their neck into a room of starving, man-eating junkyard dogs. The world out there is so harsh. Just the other day while going to my Political Science class, I was waiting for the elevator when two males (I find it hard to call them anything more respectful than that for reasons you'll see) that bluntly told me to my face that I was hideous and that I should consider going home and killing myself. As if that was not bad enough, fast-forward about 15 minutes when I went to sit down and listen to the lecture and the elderly black woman that was sitting next to me turned, looked at me with utter contempt and disgust, and moved away to sit at another table. Earlier this year I was at a music venue watching friends from several different bands performing with their respective band at a show when I was pulled aside by security and asked to leave. When I asked why, it was explained to me that neither he nor the owner wanted a man (me) using their women's restroom as there were young girls there and further implied that I was seeking entry to that restroom to gawk at them. (I used the restroom one time when no one else was in there)

These are the horrible things TS women have to face everyday. There is no escaping it if you plan to transition. You can hold on to that faux-rebel idea of "Idgaf what other people think of me", but wait until you have been told that people think you are using the women's room because you're a pedophile and want to touch young girls and we'll see how long the whole "don't care what other's think of me" will last. I can assure you that the utter disgust and humiliation will send you packing, and it's likely you'll cry your eyes out for days and not want to leave the house at all for a while after that. These are the things newly self-discovered TS people HAVE to know before they make that leap.

So to wrap up my essay-like response, take a middle road approach of being completely honest, but gentle with people. Make sure they have all of the facts and the knowledge of your personal experience, but temper that with kindness and understanding. Most importantly, encourage them to get off the computer now and then, to go out and live life, and try to gain some experience of their own. :)

[ChelseaErtel]

Jessica:

Yes, get off of the computer and get out. It's hard at first and isn't easy to accomplish. I've had only one semi-bad experience, so I'm pretty lucky. For a TS, it is very important to blend in, to not be recognized as a man in a dress. That's why when I ask where to try something on and I'm directed to the women's changing it makes me feel good. It's not a big thing as it used to be, but I dream when it ceases to be an issue.

My dream is to just go about my day as "ME" and no gender issues, none for me, and not directed at me. I don't think any late transitioner like myself can ever forget the were born a man, but to get it out of our heads for long periods of time is an achievable goal.

The truth is absolutely necessary. That is compassionate. It is compassionate to relate your stories to help others. I do find it comforting to be on this forum, but I also hope I can share my personal struggles and eventually help someone else.

I think the TG community does represent general society, BUT I believe the TG community has a much larger of caring, compassionate, giving people than the general population. Maybe it's just me, but the good in this community is far greater than the good in general society.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Melissa I'm gonna guess that comment was Katesback..

(btw ..thanks for your well thought out and honest post)..i am really really happy for you that you making so much great progress...its wonderful

since we are on this topic still....i'd like to say that its not really possible to share deeply felt experience without bias or opinion... some of us have 1000's of posts....some of us know a hundred other ts women and many more crossdressers...that matters..the experience informs opinion, and so sharing opinion responsibily is sharing experience...

and frankly its the responsibility of the reader (and your post is a great example of this) to parse through words and ideas and apply them AS THEY SEE FIT in their own lives...if you post enough, i know your bias and you know mine...we read each other through a filter of common sense...and if you don't , thats on you..not anyone else..

2nd ....tough love is LOVE.... it really is....too much focus on the tough... outside of katesback and some very few exceptions there is no lack of compassion or love in statements made here...even "negative" ones... there is this underlying current that somehow there is a group here that holds the brass ring and picks and chooses who to give it too...its total utter BS...when people preach compassion, its just such an easy pablum and it distracts us from the conversations as feelings and personality invades sharing of ideas.

we have sharp exchanges here...you had one for sure Jessica but its a shame that so many are caught up ideas that are not reflective of most of the posts here...

[Badtranny]

These are the horrible things TS women have to face everyday. There is no escaping it if you plan to transition. You can hold on to that faux-rebel idea of "Idgaf what other people think of me", but wait until you have been told that people think you are using the women's room because you're a pedophile and want to touch young girls and we'll see how long the whole "don't care what other's think of me" will last. I can assure you that the utter disgust and humiliation will send you packing, and it's likely you'll cry your eyes out for days and not want to leave the house at all for a while after that. These are the things newly self-discovered TS people HAVE to know before they make that leap.


Hmmm, this is the real stuff that you only learn when you're FULL time. When you drop the 'almost' or 'except' and are committed to your life as a trans woman. No more hiding, this is stand and deliver time and if you want to silence the "gatekeepers" all you gotta do is commit. If you're on the fence, then we think you want an opinion. ;-)

[JessicaM1985]

Well people can give me opinions all they want. It doesn't change that I'm transsexual. I've "earned" my place by dealing with those scumbags (the people that have tried tearing me down over my identity), and nothing about what they've done has changed my course any. There are only two real things that I've changed about me since being out and open about my intention to transition:
1.) Stop taking anything and everything trans related so seriously. As in life-or-death seriously. I hated who I was becoming when I would shut people down by being a hostile pain in the rear anytime someone said something I misconstrued as offensive. More people abandoned me over this than those that left just because I told them I'm a woman.

The single greatest thing that ever helped me change all of this was a line from a fictional show by the name of Game of Thrones; "Let me give you some advice, b***ard; never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you."
Once I learned to fully accept within myself who I am, I learned to stop caring what other people and their opinions of me are. By embracing openness about who I am and laughing off the dumb useless garbage people will spew at you in their ignorance; I learned to use who I am as armor against their hate and stupidity. Eventually when people saw how much more comfortable I was in my own skin (metaphorically speaking of course) by living as a woman, they thought "Oh hey, maybe this is something that helps her. She's more even kilter, confident, and pleasant to be around." I stopped giving off that vibe that lent credibility to the hateful stereotype that transpeople are mentally unhinged. In fact by living by example, people around me have come to see that not all trans people are bad and that some of the things I say (like the fact that I'm actually a woman trapped in a man's body and that I'm happiest when I can alter that enough to stop looking like a dude) might actually be true. Does the sun shine out of my every orifice? No. (if it did, do they make burn cream for those areas?)
I'm still grouchy in the morning, I still get mad over dumb things, I have massive procrastination issues, and maybe one of these days I'll remember to stop drinking out of the milk jug and exemplify more "lady-like" manners. But my personality and confidence has improved ten fold and it gets further tempered by all those hateful attacks that happen semi-frequently.

2.) Mixing blue eyeshadow with red lipstick is the dumbest cosmetic idea I could have thought of doing and I still wake up in night sweats wondering what on Earth I was thinking trying that look out, and in public no less.

[Nicole Erin]

Jessica - during the 80's, the blue eyeshadow and red lipstick was a look :)

About wearing as an armor - yeah that is true. Treat something like a secret and people will try to make you ashamed.
That is the reason some people hate "gay pride" is cause the gay folk have taken away the one weapon that the bigots had.

[Tracii G]

Jessica I agree all the way I never let the haters get me down.If they don't like me so be it as long as I'm happy with myself thats all that matters.
I try to be kind and helpful to everyone even if they are dumb as a mud fence.LOL

[JessicaM1985]

Jessica I agree all the way I never let the haters get me down.If they don't like me so be it as long as I'm happy with myself thats all that matters.
I try to be kind and helpful to everyone even if they are dumb as a mud fence.LOL

That's not nice Tracii. Mud Fences actually serve a purpose and shouldn't be insulted like that. ;)

Haters don't bother me nearly as much as they used to. Granted I'm not too fond of being told to kill myself, but I'm sure that as shocked as I was to hear that, there are 100000000000000 more people lined up to say something even more hurtful. Meh, whatever helps them sleep at night. I have other cares and worries in life to deal with. :)

[Aprilrain]

There aren't even close to ten trillion people, thank goodness! I'm sure you will find more good people in the world than bad.

[JessicaM1985]

Oh. Well I guess my zero key was stuck. :P ;)
Still the point stands. There are good people in the world, there are bad people in the world, and then there's everyone else who falls somewhere in between. I've had good people treat me horribly and terrible people display brief moments of altruism towards me, so even the regular notions of good/bad do not fully apply. People are unpredictable and as such, life is unpredictable. It is my hope that more people treat me kindly than those that would treat me with hate and that is about the best I can really hope for each morning I awaken. :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What its like...everlast..

"I've seen a rich man beg
I've seen a good man sin
I've seen a tough man cry
I've seen a loser win
And a sad man grin
I heard an honest man lie
I've seen the good side of bad
And the down side of up
And everything between
I licked the silver spoon...............

.......You know where it ends
Yo, it usually depends on where you start"

[Beth-Lock]

Jessica - during the 80's, the blue eyeshadow and red lipstick was a look.

Or maybe it went often with pink lipstick. I can't remember.

Worse still than the blue eyeshadow, the look went with stiletto high heels and 'designer' jeans, ones tailored to be slim and form fitting. I hated the jeans replacing skirts among high schoolers, but I was impressed with the blue eyeshadow, though eventually I was persuaded not to wear it any more, after a fashion conscious friend told me it was a hard colour to wear successfully, and even wearing it successfully, was not much of a success. I think it went best with grandmotherly eyes, especially if the grannie also wore a miniskirt which would of course not be age appropriate, (that is far too young for her). I think wearing it today would give the bad people something unpleasant to say about you, behind your back. But isn't so much of their abuse shallow anyway?

[DaniG]

2.) Mixing blue eyeshadow with red lipstick is the dumbest cosmetic idea I could have thought of doing and I still wake up in night sweats wondering what on Earth I was thinking trying that look out, and in public no less.

I have a girlfriend who wears this look, albeit subtle. Works for her. Cutest M2F I ever met.