Marriage, Relationships, GG, Being a CD

[Dana]

When I went through my divorce, I went to the bookstore, the libarary, and begin doing some reading. I was a good husband, I didn't run around, I didn't cheat, I didn't hit, nor phyically, mentally, abuse her. I didn't have a Neanthrdail attitude about cooking, cleaning, doing the laundry. She worked, I worked ~ my attitude was "Whoever hit the backdoor first ~ got busy getting busy!" Be it cooking, shopping, cleaning, washing and drying clothes. I personally looked at it as though it was a shared partnership.

I had a good job, with good benefits. (My share of the hospital bill for each of my children being born was $6.50! Wouldn't have been that much, but the wife was hungry after child birth ~which I can understand) I still have them as I retired from that job and career at 38.

Still I ended up divorced.

The wife's EXCUSE was that I wasn't that I was a crossdresser ~ but because I was a "Work~aholic" I wasn't! It was the demands of the job!

I read in my research that 50% of all first time marriages end in divorce. Its like 64% for second time marriages (Dr. Phil) and even higher for third and fourth time marriages.

Of the 50% of first time marriages that don't end in divorce, its reported that 37% of the remaining 50% end up in a martial comma. They're NOT happy! They stay married for the money, the finances, the children, the status quo?


90% of all divorce petitions are filled by women. When children are involved, and custody in a question, women gain custody 90% of the time, but in the 10% of the case where the man seeks custody, they're granted custdoy 90% of the time.

Of those cases, when the husband IS granted custody, and women are ordered to pay child support ~ 90% of them are in default toward paying child support!

The primary cause of divorce is not infidelity, substance abuse (although one of the top five) but finances.

Finances asisde ~ the leading cause of divorce is substance abuse (drugs, alcohol) etc. followed by gambling or some other obessive ~compulisive disorder!

Right behind that is mental, emotional ~ an physical abuse.


I'll leave this open for others to comment! Pro or Con~!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

wow..
this thread touches me because in the next day or so we are going to have a conversation that will have a huge impact on our marriage..

we "agreed" to seperate after the holidays(2 kids 11/9 yrs old)...i only agreed because i dont know what else to do.. we don't fight, we both love our kids, we spend quality time together...xdressing has hurt our sex life as i got addicted to internet and xdressing activities without her knowledge..she drifted away and finally told me she was out of love and lost and alone etc..

i came out to her in the hope(stupid in hindsight) that she would feel better about herself and i guess i really thought she loved me

well its 10 months later and so far our communication is shit, i am going deeper and deeper into sadness and i'm basically writing out my speech..its not an ultimatum but i'm basically at the point that if she isnt into me then our 14 yr marriage has to end. i don't want that but i won't go on, unloved..

i have the opposite problem than you amy, we both want the kids and i make all the money..her lifestyle is extravagant for our finances and i've talked to a lawyer that says i better settle cuz i don't want a judge deciding..she will get everything she wants in that case..

so me, my wife, my kids, my money...its all going pay the price for x-dressing..the thing is right now it makes me sick to my stomach..i can't have my family and i can't really look like a woman...it all seems so depressing..
no matter what i lose, and i've hurt the people i love the most

[susandrea]

Someone I worked with was on his second marriage, for about a year and a half. His first marriage ended when he came home and found his infant son strapped to the changing table passed out from crying, and his wife half in/half out of the diaper pail where she had fallen, due to excessive drug use.

Anyway, his new wife instituted a few "habits" that they followed very closely, and he swears it makes a huge difference. First, no matter WHAT, at some point in the day they sit down in the living room for a cup of tea, coffee,or a glass of wine and TALK, for at least a half an hour, no less. Some people may be saying, "who has time for that?"-- well, they made the time. And they connected. That time was for sharing thoughts and open discussion about THEM. He told me it was amazing, how he had to force himself to open up, but he knew he was heard and he knew he was BEING heard.

The second thing was that they must make time for at least four DATES a month. I mean real dates, where they went to dinner or the movies, or did something else, and it was to be regarded as a DATE, complete with romance, holding hands, and stolen kisses. He buys flowers or thinks of something fun to do, while she puts on a pretty dress, does her nails, and flirts. They make an effort to be romantic. (For couples here-- just read about Angel and MarlaGG for a good time).

You see, she had been through two divorces, both husbands left her for another, and she didn't see it coming.

The couples I see, they just drift apart. They stop really talking, even for years at a time. Because people change, and by the time it's realized there are two strangers looking at each other, both tired and worn out. One of my friends at work just kicked her husband of twentyfive years out of the house. Some stranger called her to warn her that her husband was leading a "double life". When she confronted him about it (and it took three months to get to the bottom of it) it turned out he had been cheating on her for three years. And he refused to give her up. My friend said she had no idea, I just can't imagine it! Even I knew something was wrong, when about six months prior she told me he kept calling her "Nancy", and that it wasn't the first time over the years. She just brushed it off, but warning bells went off inside my head. How can you live with a man and be so clueless? I don't get it.

What I'm trying to say is, even though it may appear that CDing is the cause of a marital break-up, remember that marriages break-up all the time in this country. A strong marriage could survive crossdressing. It's been done. A marriage has to be already on the way out for CDing to blow it apart. It may seem happy, but obviously there wasn't enough love to hold it together. And it's not just the lie that's been lived, but the fact that the wall was so high in the first place. So many CDs here seem afraid of their wives, and that makes me so very sad. This is your partner in life! She should know what the inside of your belly-button looks like!

I disagree that finances are the number one cause of divorce. I firmly believe that ALL causes are rooted in poor communication skills. Yelling and screaming don't count. Fights are not considered quality communication skills, either. I mean being able to sit down, calmly and rationally like grown-ups, and discuss ANYTHING as a team, as two people who love each other, any time day or night. Then get up from the table and hold each other tight. After all, shouldn't your spouse be the one person you can go to for anything? And vice-versa?

If I ever get married, I plan to follow those two "rules" because it makes sense to me. Without that, a husband isn't all that different from a roommate, really. To me, anyway.

:sb:

Try this site for starters:

http://www.peaceandhealing.com/marriage/communication.asp

And this one:

http://www.equalityinmarriage.org/dmtalk.html

And there are loads more.

[Dana]

I would REALLY recommend that you speak with another attrony or two or three, until you find one that isn't LAZY. Lawyers are just like anyone else ~ they're human beings ~ and they will take advantage of you.

For me first came the spearartion ~ and then the divorce ~ then problems stemming from my divorce ~ and then bankruptcy. During the course of all of this ~ I did NOT find a lawyer who had my best interst at heart, (nor anywhere else) what I did find was lawyers who were out to make a quick and easy buck.

When I filed bankruptcy for example, knowing what I know now, aside from child support, back taxes, and student loans ~ screw em! Let them write and call all they want, and in 90% of the cases that exacatlly what they're going to do, write and call and harrass the ever living Hell out of you ~ but that's about it! And, until I get back on my feet ~ have at it ~ when I get the money ~ you'll get the money.

The problem with being a cross dresser, isn't so much that the courts really care ~ especially if the divorce is a no-fault divorce ~ which most are ~ is it so much concerned with a equal division of the maritial assets. The problem comes in when the cross dresser is hesitant about being outed as such to the community at large ~ that and for some reason the media types just loves these kind of stories?

All in all ~ in hindsight ~ if it were me ~ I'd just take my lumps ~ obtain an equitable divorce ~ with a fair distrubuition of maritial assets (preferablly decided before you get to court) and then go from there. DON'T negotiate on the sole premise that you're a cross dresser ~ and fear of being outed. Trust me, DECISIONS that you make here and now can affect you severly for years and years to come.

There is life after divorce. One of the starting points is that "No!" You can't go wrong by yourself, and "Yes!" for the first time you can experience and explore in your totality the very fabric of your total being as a person and as a HUMAN BEING! Post divorce is very much a time for inner exploration. A time for making decisions and choices, what to put in? What to take out?

One of the things that you're going to discover about being older, more experienced, etc. especially with women that are older and now more wiser for the experience ~ is that you're going to find a smoggesboard of women who have lived and been with much, much worse, than a man who is a crossdresser.

You're going to find women in abundance that have had to deal with and live with men, that are drunks, into drugs, drug dealing, wife beaters, mentally, emotionally, and physically abusive, financially ill-responsible ~ who want or can't hold down a d decent paying job, who have gambling addictions, who are sex addicts sleeping with anything that comes along.

Me? I'm out of the career and job that held not only the financial ramifications but potentially criminal punishment if it had been found out that I was a cross dresser (military). Those days are over. I'm now in a low stress, no stress job, with people that I enjoy working with and for. I go to work~! I come home! I leave the job at home! No sales, production quotas, no deadlines. No dealing with customers, nor the public. I'm repsonsible for my actions and performance and mine alone~! Plus I have all the benifits that I had while I was in the military ~ and making more money than I ever made before.

GRANTED, I GAVE the ex-wife everything from a 12 year marriage that was worth stealing ~ but fifteen years later ~ I look at it from the perspective that I would have had to replace it all by now anyway! Plus this go around ~ thanks to low price leaders such as WalMart, Target, and shopping on the internet, is much, much cheaper than it was the first time I bought it.

I figure that if I stay the course, I'll be completely out of debt within 28 months. At the moment I'm planning (Me! Myself, and I alone) the house which I'm going to build and live in for the rest of my life.

I've compartmentlized relationship between men and women ~ into an outline. The only reason for a man and woman to get together, is compaionship, with intimate relations and having and raising children being a sub-category of the above. Other than that, there really isn't any reason for a man and woman to get together.

Not to sound like an arrogant azz, but the truth of the matter is ~ I've simply got more to offer your typical woman ~ than your average woman has got to offer me. Just that plain and simple. I know what I'm bringing to the negotiating table. What are 'you' bringing to the table besides a car load of children from other relationships, drawer full of bills, and slightly above average minimum wage job,.................and Oh~ Yea! The potential of intimate relations.

So, I like to dress up in women's clothes, jewlery, and makeup? You know what, I could have been ~ could be worse! I could do worse things. While I conceed that I might be eccentric in my lifestyle ~ I will not conceed that I am perverted.

It sounds as though your wife may be materialistic, and if so ~ you know what! You could give her everything there is to give ~ and worth stealing ~ and you know what? She's STILL going to scream bloody murder that she got the wrong end of the deal.

Betty Broderick for example. Her husband gave her a mansion to live in on Malibu Beach, a Mercedes to drive, and $20,000 a month in alimony ~ and she still ended up murdering her husband and his new wife ~ because he screwed her in the divorce? Go figure.

Don't hang yourself on some "lover's cross" just because you're a cross dresser. :)

[Dana]

Susan,

I agree with much of what you've written, and your post is the primary reason I begin this thread. To begin a thread about what works and what doesn't work! Excellent ideas, outstanding post! Thanks!:yrtw:

[susandrea]

I forgot the third thing!

Have something of your own. Belong to a bowling league, have an active hobby, SOMETHING that gets you out of the house and is fun just on your own.

Otherwise, you may depend on your spouse so much that you become dull. Turn off the T.V. and get moving. You need to have something to talk about, other than work. READ BOOKS, go hiking, biking, move your ass! Work hard to stay a "catch" for your spouse. Pay attention to your looks and your attitude.

The number one complaint I hear form my girlfriends about their husbands is that all they do is work and come home-- nothing is ever new. Of course, it has to go both ways. SO many women I see get in such ruts it's actually pathetic.

Once I was visiting my sister. She's been married ten years at the time. When I heard her husband coming home, I dashed in the bathroom and reapplied my lipstick. She noticed and asked me why. I told her I just wanted to look nice for him. When he came in I gave him a big hug and poured him a glass of wine and asked him about his day. When the kids came in, we all went to the basement and played for about an hour to relax. It got late and my sister stressed about dinner. I said let's order pizza and get a movie! Yeah!

Later, my sister and I talked. She said I gave her a lot to think about, because she noticed he was smiling almost the whole time and she hadn't seen that in a long time.

I did practically nothing, and I know it's not always like that. But you have to be creative and PAY ATTENTION!

Living in a rut is the kiss of death for marriage. Maybe being on the outside of things I notice more of what goes on. I don't know. I do know I would try a lot harder than 99% of the people I know.:)

[Dana]

I would agree with your last post~! Marriage is a long term project that like any 'living thing' requires substanance, nuturing, caring, etc. Otherwise, like all 'living' things it will die on the vine.

I once read, "Half of all first time marriages end in divorce, and of the remaining fifty per cent, only thirteen per cent report being "Happly Married. The remaining thirty-seven per cent are living in a 'maritial comma'. They're staying together because of the status quo, finances, the kids, fear of being single.

Marriage (Indeed, life in general) can be like draining a swamp. When you're up to your neck in aligators and snakes, its becomes hard to remember that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.

I think we all get caught up into the day to day of living. In many jobs, and careers, the day to day becomes a daily test! Your best is never good enough, you've alwys have to strive for bigger and better, more, more, more.

Its also easy, all too easy, to become complacent in the day to day. I think that you need to sit down daily, and make the conscious decision to avoid the rut, to remember and to remind each other how and why you've come together in the first place.

0.02

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Dana - i can tell you;ve really been thru it...i am hearing that i'm scared of being"outed" and like i have said so far it has not gotten nasty..we'll just have to see and its the "equitable" thing i'm worried about...we will not have to deal with bankruptcy her dad has big $$ and she has an MBA!!! so the more research i do the more i'm hoping we reach a fair settlement if we divorce

susandrea -- i hear your points..we're in a bowling league together!! its the highlight of our week!! we go to movies, dnner, etc but not nearly as much as we should have...its the communication part..no sex for years and WE NEVER TALKED ABOUT IT!!!!!!!! why? for me i had performance issues and was taking anti-depressants(WHICH SHE KNEW!!!)...i was afraid of exactly what happened ..that i'd blurt out i crossdress and she would not accept it..which is what happened...

why didnt she bring it up?? i have no idea...best i can guess is she thinks she "signaled" or "hinted" at it but i can say even if i missed the hint i had no idea she had drifted so far from me...i have spent countless hours at the dinner table in bed talking about her issues her mom her family her friends etc..of course this is my side of story..but it was a one way marraige and my friends are all saying i'm better off...of course love is not logical and i have kids so this is consuming my days wondering what to do...as you can tell by my posts.

you said living in the rut is worse..i agree...but we can get out of the rut if she wants and it just look like she doesnt want to. in my heart i'll hang in long as i can, and if we part i will be devastated...

this may sound petty but i am being brutally honest here, for the period of time i am going to be devastated beyond anything i've experienced..she may feel some freedom , over time she is the one who will find that there are not many guys who will put into a relationship what i was willing to do (even with my significant flaws)...btw one good thing i'm off the medicine and will never ever go back on

[Dana]

FYI, interestingly enough, the divorce rate for women who hold post graduate degrees is equal to that of women who have never completed high school. Why, that is, I don't know ~ certainly opened to any number of speciclations. I would be interested in seeing the findings from such a study.

I for one, would argue that what should be held head and shoulders above and beyond any issues ~ is the general welfare and affect on the children.

I would highly recommend Judith S. Wallerstein and Sandar Blakeslee's book, "Second Chances; Men, Women, and Children A Decade After Divorce"

In it contains the result of a twenty year study about the effects of divorce on children, as much as twenty to thrity years after the ink is dried on the divorce papers. When I read it, it was just jaw dropping and and eye opening. I sinercly believe because of what I applied from having read the book ~ resulted in my two children who were six and ten at the time grown into well adpated, responsible, children with a minimum of emotional baggage stemming from their mother's and I divorce.

Divorce is about two life alternating situations. Saying goodbye to one life, and all its hopes, dreams, and possibililtites ~ and saying "hello" to a new life, and all of its hopes, dreams and possibilities.

Life is full of pitfalls and traps. Of divorce there are many. One of these ~ is re-bounding too soon into another divorce, before you've managed to sort yourself out mentally, emotionally, pyschologically, financially ~ and yes I would even argue spiritually. At the minimum I would recommend giving yourself a solid year after the ink has dried on the dotted line ~ before getting into another serious relationship. One should get their life as near to perfect as they can before getting into another relationship.

I wish you and yours well!:rant:

[Sarahgurl371]

My 2 cents...I agree that living in a rut sucks. The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth! Why do we live in ruts? Is it complacency or fear? For me, I have worked my butt off to get the both of us ahead in life. Spent the time and money on her hobbies, and they are expensive. Bought the stuff we wanted, built a house etc. Guess what, we are still in the rut. Fear.....fear of trying something new. I complain that she won't try something new....my CDing. Guess what, I am no better than she is, at the trying something new. Oh I have my ideas, and dreams, and am an openminded person. But to go do something new? Just not interested.

Fear of change.... fear of change has caused our problems. But change is the one thing that is constant. Fear of change. Think about divorce! There is some change for you. Fear, yeah, I am afraid of living this way for another 50 years and realizing that I didn't enjoy life, niether did she. We just stayed together cause is was known. Fear of making the change. You bet.

Life is hard! Does it have to be? Ever meet one of THOSE people who are happy all the frickin' time? Wow, aren't they annoying. Gee, I sure envy them. Wish I could be that happy. What is thier secret? I guess it all starts with each of us as individuals. I have to make myself happy. She has to make herself happy. Now, can we still get along, and mutually love, honor, and respect eachother? Can we work towards a common set of goals? Can WE be happy together?

When I was a teen, feeling all the angst that teens do, plus a little CDing on top for good measure, I used to believe that you could love anybody. You could overlook the things you didn't like, and only see the good. And you could feel love for them. Wow, that sure changed. How come I can't overlook the fact that she despises "Tammy". Guess I just need to be myself huh? Well, being myself is going to make me alone. Maybe I'll be better off in the long run. Maybe (hopefully) she will be. I guess i want to be loved, the way that I love.

All the ideas here, the date nights, the talks, the doing for the other. They are all great. It takes two to make them work. Problem is, in my situation, and it sounds like some others here as well, WE (read the CDer) are the only ones trying to make it work. I have yet to read on here about an SO buying a book, or suggesting counseling, or compromise. Now there are some wonderfully enlightened SOs here. Don't get me wrong. But how bout' those of us with all the problems. Were are our SOs heads at? So many posts here about how we could be worse persons. How we could be cheaters, drugies, wife beaters etc. Number one, I agree. number two, why the hell do i have to justify myself by saying I could be worse? Number three, I keep asking myself how I can be a better person?

Maybe I am just not at the level of self acceptance that I need to be. Maybe I am with the wrong person for me, despite loving her so much. Maybe I am just trying convince myself of the fact its over. Maybe I am just trying to convince myself to give it one more try. I sure wish I had the answers. The only way to get em' though is to be dead, and have God enlighten us. I guess I am just not ready for that yet either.

Whew!!!!! were the heck did that all come from?

[susandrea]

And on top of it all, sometimes people are just selfish. And lazy. They just are, reason be damned.

I know so many women who are just unreasonably bitchy it's astonishing. They expect their husbands to perform miracles of sacrific, and yet they themselves only do the minimum.

It amazes me.

Learning communication skills can be a life-saver. Not just in your marriage, but also with your kids, at work, and with your frineds.

It does take confidence. I think just learning better skills, seeking them out, reading books-- it helps to build confidence, too.

You have nothing to lose but the fear! And so much to gain.

You all know the saying:

You'll never get respect unless you first respect yourself.

There's so much out there to learn from. Here's a starter:

http://love.ivillage.com/lnsproblems/lnscommunicate/0,,npcm,00.html

And this one:

http://www.businessballs.com/self-confidence-assertiveness.htm

:angel:

[GypsyKaren]

Hi Dana

Sorry to hear about the mess you're in, as a veteran of the divorce wars I know it's rough. All I can say is that sometimes there's no rhyme or reason to it all, it just takes on a life of it's own and keeps rolling downhill, picking up speed and tearing things up. Sometimes the only thing you can do is to try to get out of the way. I really hope everything works out okay for you.

GypsyKaren