Crossdressing acceptance vs gay acceptance

[Tanya J]

Just a question for everyone here gg's or cd's. Do you think that being homosexual is more accepted than being a crossdresser and why? to me it seems that women are more comfortable around a gay man than a crossdresser it could just be me, but i wonder why given that there is still a false stereotype that many cd's are

[Pythos]

There is definitely more "acceptance". But you also have to recall that Gays have fought for what they have. It was a few pioneering people that took the risk, instead of hiding in the closet that really got the ball rolling.

This would be why I really don't think cds in the closet that help anything. I know why people hide, same reason gays hid....to not face the hatred and repercussions that are connected with being out and yourself.

But in the end....it helps no one.

[rocketscientist]

Since you pointed this question at women specifically, I would think that gay men seem less threatening to women because, well..... they're GAY. With cd's, they are probably not sure what their sexuality is and that makes them apprehensive. Not just women,but I think most people in general don't readily accept what they can't put their own label on. Hugs,Tonya

[Kelley]

I believe the gay community has more acceptance for the reasonses that Pythos states above. I had a thought a while back on this vain. If most of society believes CDs are gay then way don't we have more acceptance?

[CarolynO]

Yes,I think so given all the hoopla about legalizing gay marriage.I think your right about women being more comfortable around gays, even attracted to them sometimes.Maybe even fall in love with them.
It has happened-Anthony Perkins one example.Women tripped over themselves to get invited to Truman Capote's parties,be with him on cruises etc. another example.

On the other hand,I can't think of any positive media stories of cd's.Negative ones either for that matter.

[Marleena]

Gay men are accepted more readily until they put a dress on. Then it seems to confuse people. A man in a dress = gay to many people. Acceptance is farther behind.

[Julie Gaum]

Some of the above posts did skirt or hinted, and CDs coming out of the closet is important, image or publicity-wise, for CDs to gain understanding but that is only one step, albeit an important one. When the AMA decided that homosexuality was a trait at birth then our society started to come around to say "Now we understand". Since then gays have reached the point where many states have passed
same-sex marriage or other legal approvals, the military services have eased their restrictions, and gays are elected to public office --- you know all of that. Now we look at society's concept of the cross dresser and 99% have little or no idea why we do what we do (we have so many varied reasons). Ignorance breeds suspicion and hostility to what is not understood --- that's only "human". So on one hand we understand what makes one gay and accept it and on the other hand: "What ARE you people?"
Hope than helps answer Tanya
Julie

[Barbara Ella]

The gay movement has been in the mainstream focus for quite some time. CD has not made any inroad until recently. Too many have the misperception regarding "why" an activity takes place, and for these reasons it will be a very long time before dressing begins to move up in acceptance. Education is very long term, and our starting point is very different in a lot of people's minds.

Barbara

[FoxxxyBri]

There is definitely more "acceptance". But you also have to recall that Gays have fought for what they have. It was a few pioneering people that took the risk, instead of hiding in the closet that really got the ball rolling.

This would be why I really don't think cds in the closet that help anything. I know why people hide, same reason gays hid....to not face the hatred and repercussions that are connected with being out and yourself.

But in the end....it helps no one.
I agree with this.

The fear (and annoyance) of the impending BS you'll have to deal with from the public (and family) keep a lot of people in the closet. It's such a taboo that many even hide it from their wives (which I think is unfair but I do understand it).

[busker]

Gay men are accepted more readily until they put a dress on. Then it seems to confuse people. A man in a dress = gay to many people. Acceptance is farther behind.

Gay men don't put dresses on--or do they? I get the feeling that there are a lot more gay cd's on here than appears at first glance, mainly from reading the answers to various posts.
women might accept gay men more easily as already mentioned--non-threatening in a sexual way , but ask those women if they want to be married to one, and perhaps one that is also a cd, and the answer would very likely be quite different. NIMBY would be my guess. I have a suspicion that even the really accepting GGs here are likely scarce as hens teeth, and tolerance is likely the m .o. for most just from reading the comments (and maybe I read too much into them).
When I worked in SF, the lament I heard from women was that "all the good ones were taken" meaning that the rest were either gay or losers and not worth any effort.
Shananigan's thread was good in explaining that what people say is NOT always what they mean.
just my opinion

[busker]

it will be a very long time before dressing begins to move up in acceptance.

Barbara
Frankly, I don't believe it will ever be accepted. What social purpose does it serve? On what platform would the nation be educated? How is this any different from someone running around in fatigues all day? Do we consider them military wannabes? Yes, some believe themselves to be transgendered but what does that really have to do with dressing? That would be a mental state, not a physical one.
Outside matching the inside. Sure, but it isn't absolutely necessary from society's point of view. There are likely some males who are a bit more effeminate than others but who don't crossdress as a means of expression. Just because someone is a math genius doesn't mean that they have to go around looking like some nerd who can't match his /her socks.
Gays are getting real consideration now, but had medicine and science done proper work, we wouldn't need legal avenues to guarantee their fair treatment. Why do we need legislation to treat people like people? While there are cross dressers around the world, they are many steps farther removed from bio-genetic reasons that would explain why one person is gay and not heterosexual.
Femulating is something entirely different from being gay. IMO

[Badtranny]

Here's an interesting observation.

I know about 6-8 self identified CD's personally and pretty well. Most of them have been to my house at least twice and I've been out with all of them countless times. I have never heard a single one of them complain about the world not accepting them. Perhaps there's a correlation between being closeted and thinking the world is against you.

You can't make the world accept you, but you can certainly be accepted in YOUR world. If you are closeted because your friends won't accept you, then you're part of the problem.

[Kalista Jameson]

I think gay folks probably are gaining more acceptance in the general public than crossdressers for many reasons. While it is true that some crossdressers are gay, we here also know that many of us are not. This is not well communicated in the world and the drive and numbers for crossdresser support and resources I believe to be much less that with the LGBT community in general. Plus you can be gay and no one really knows or notices unless you make a point of wearing a shirt that says "I'm Gay" on it, or telling everyone you pass by on the sidewalk, and how many want to do that about anything in their personal lives? With crossdressing, it's all visual. We don't need to say a word or wear a sign. If I were dolled up and told someone I'm a crossdresser, they'd look at me and say, "no @#$!, Sherlock."

I think simply by the nature of what we do, we are going to attract attention good or bad and everything in between. I believe the focus for many of us ought to be, not to be unreadable, defensive or confrontational, but to be confident, mature and show that we are just as worthy of respect as anyone, regardless of gender, orientation or belief system. Let others be confused, it's okay. If they are openly supportive, excellent. If not and they act like a fool, that's okay too. Let them own it either way. If we can allow that, we may gain some support in the community at large, but I would not expect much, simply because, I don't think we match the numbers that people who identify as strictly LGBT do. I simply suspect this. Since many CD's are in the closet, gaining any sort of demographics and number count makes it a hard task. When we come out in the numbers that the LGBT community has and get people having the conversation on the same level, and move crossdressing from some under the table, taboo thing, then it will be interesting to see where the chips fall.

I have a co-worker who is a friendly acquaintance who is gay, and would be offended if people thought he crossdressed. So, I'm not sure the LGBT folks own crossdressing anymore than those of us who are not LGBT. We are kind of our own thing, that spills over into both straight and LGBT worlds, accepted by some, despised by others. It's hard to wrap your head around it.

Let's face it, trying to help people understand that some of us are not gay (not that there is an issue in that in of itself, but it does become important if having this conversation with a SO you want to be with) while wearing pantyhose and makeup is an uphill climb. I fully admire and respect the LGBT crowd and see them as plain old regular people, but I am not in their camp because I am not LGBT in any way, so I know I am on my own in explaining my lifestyle to people unless they are open to getting a 101 on the breakdown of what crossdressing is and is not, and again all that even varies greatly depending on which crossdresser you talk to.

Like everything else in life, I'm still trying to figure things out.=)

Cheers,

Kalista

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Tanya, It's kind of a turf war with the women.

[Marleena]

I just want to add that if somebody sees a gay man it is not so obvious by looking at him and that makes a big difference out there. When they see a man in a dress or a gay man in a dress it's an entirely different visual. If they got to know either of you they would probably be more accepting.

[busker]

Here's an interesting observation.

I know about 6-8 self identified CD's personally and pretty well. Most of them have been to my house at least twice and I've been out with all of them countless times. I have never heard a single one of them complain about the world not accepting them. Perhaps there's a correlation between being closeted and thinking the world is against you.
You can't make the world accept you, but you can certainly be accepted in YOUR world. If you are closeted because your friends won't accept you, then you're part of the problem.

I think that that would apply only to some people. There are cds here who are perfectly happy to cd in private for whatever reason. I don't feel the world is against me--I just don't see any valid reason to femulate. I do go out dressed mostly in women's clothing, I just don;t try to look like or pass as one. That would be futile. Tolerance may be a more accurate description than acceptance. People who make no audible objection to something/someone aren't always accepting.

[Kate Simmons]

Women are well aware that gay guys are not interested in them in a sexual way. Many CD's, on the other hand, may have a guy's libido regardless of how they are dressed. The intuition is inherent on this.:)

[Jamie001]

Ignorance breeds suspicion and hostility to what is not understood --- that's only "human". So on one hand we understand what makes one gay and accept it and on the other hand: "What ARE you people?"
Julie

The reason for this problem is because 95 percent of crossdressers are so far in the closet that they will never see the light of day. You can do you part to advance acceptance by getting out in public and wearing women's clothing, makeup, shoes, and other items proudly in both male and female mode. Let other folks see you and come out to your friends and show that you are proud of who you are.

[Jamie001]

You can't make the world accept you, but you can certainly be accepted in YOUR world. If you are closeted because your friends won't accept you, then you're part of the problem.

Thanks for stating this simple fact. Also, everyone should understand that if you friends won't accept that you are a crossdresser then they were never really your friends to begin with. Telling and showing friends that you are a crossdressers is a great litmus test to determine who your real friends are. If you can't be yourself around friends, then these so called "friends" are not worth having.

[Tanya J]

So many wonderful and valid ideas on this subject. This is the reason i so enjoy reading the posts here. I know that this goes without saying, but it truly is a shame that we are not at a point where we can openly share ourselves with the female population as a whole. I have always thought that part of the comfort of women with gay men was that they enjoyed some of the same things(hope that i am not stereotyping). We also have the potential to be able to include women in this part of ourselves that we shared enjoyment of.

[Wildaboutheels]

FACT. Some women will/might accept.

Probably most won't. Basic Birds and the Bees 101.

Some people, probably "most" people, male or female will make snap judgements and decisons about people based strictly on appearance.

It's up to ANYone, man or woman that dresses "differently" [than most members of their sex does], to SHOW people, by how you treat and INTERACT with them, that it is really UNSHARP to draw conclusions about people based simply on how they are dressed.

BUT... put yourself in a woman's shoes. She sees 10 guys at a party and one is dressed like a woman.

Is it more likely to hurt or to help him get a conversation with her?

And Gay people? Last time I checked, there is nothing "wrong" about/with gay people and I imagine most gay people look and act "normal".

[PaulaQ]

Thanks for stating this simple fact. Also, everyone should understand that if you friends won't accept that you are a crossdresser then they were never really your friends to begin with.

I do not feel this is a very realistic view for people who've had lifelong friends that no longer accept them. Were you honest from the start with your friends that no longer accept you? Probably not. Is that their fault?

People have flaws. There are some very kind hearted, well meaning people - maybe some of your friends - who simply aren't able to accept us. These aren't evil people. They are just people - with flaws. In particular, they have lots of misconceptions about us, and are pretty bigoted about us.

I think the "never really your friends" line is a load of bull, quite frankly. It's just as fair to say "you were never really their friend either, since you were never honest." I don't think that is representative of the situation either. That is the heartbreak of this situation - you can lose real, lifelong friends, and they likely feel that they lost you. There is loss for everyone involved.

It's fine if you've known someone a year or two and they reject you. Yeah, they weren't much of a friend. But losing someone who's been in your life for 10 years+? They were never your friend? Really? It was real - something changed - and the friendship ended.


Telling and showing friends that you are a crossdressers is a great litmus test to determine who your real friends are.

So by that logic, if your parent's don't accept you anymore, they were never really your parents, or never loved you?

I had dinner with a group of friends the other night - actually most of my friends here where I live now. The subject of transgender people came up. These are, overall, nice people and good friends. And it was pretty clear from the conversation that they would NEVER accept this about me were I to reveal it. It wasn't as bad as it could be - I'd definitely be viewed in a more favorable light than a child molester (this was clear from the conversation.) But acceptance seemed highly unlikely. They are not bad people overall - they just have a rather unfortunate prejudice. (During that conversation, I was super glad that people can't read minds.)

So maybe I should've just whipped out the litmus test and told 'em - "I'm a crossdresser! Deal with it!" Oh wait - they are my wife's friends too, and that would've gone rather badly for her, I think. Is it fair to wreck my wife's friendships? She loves it here, and she loves these people. Do I destroy her world just to feel a few moments of vindication for mine? (Bear in mind that I'd have rather few friends after said "litmus test".) [She must've known? How could she not know? Boy, was she stupid not to know - WE knew all along! How sad for her...]

These situations can be rather complicated, and there's potential for lotsa heartbreak, all over the place. And some of us are rather isolated.


You can do you part to advance acceptance by getting out in public and wearing women's clothing, makeup, shoes, and other items proudly in both male and female mode.

Not everyone wants to be an activist. Some people just want to lead quiet lives, and be left alone to go about their business. Is that so wrong?

[Badtranny]

Not everyone wants to be an activist. Some people just want to lead quiet lives, and be left alone to go about their business. Is that so wrong?

No. It's perfectly understandable and perfectly normal. If everybody had courage, then how would we recognize the courageous?

[PaulaQ]

No. It's perfectly understandable and perfectly normal. If everybody had courage, then how would we recognize the courageous?

That was unfair.
Some people have dependents - not everyone is cut out to be a soldier, and not everyone is in a situation where doing that would be even remotely fair to others.
It ain't always just about us.

[MysticLady]

Since you pointed this question at women specifically, I would think that gay men seem less threatening to women because, well..... they're GAY. With cd's, they are probably not sure what their sexuality is and that makes them apprehensive.

I guess there's an aura around us. Women even fear us(just kidding):heehee:

[flatlander_48]

No. It's perfectly understandable and perfectly normal. If everybody had courage, then how would we recognize the courageous?

So, let me understand. One lacks courage if you value the relative stability of your life in terms of your marriage, your kids, your work situation, etc? You know, if you want to gamble with something, I'd say that's a high stakes game...

[flatlander_48]

There is definitely more "acceptance". But you also have to recall that Gays have fought for what they have. It was a few pioneering people that took the risk, instead of hiding in the closet that really got the ball rolling.

Don't forget that MANY of those at Stonewall were actually crossdressers and drag queens. However, there is a tendency for the LGBT movement to sort of hide crossdressers and transgender folks. They seem to think that we are often too provocative. Don't know why they would ever get that impression...


This would be why I really don't think cds in the closet that help anything. I know why people hide, same reason gays hid....to not face the hatred and repercussions that are connected with being out and yourself.

But in the end....it helps no one.

That's only PART of the reason. ENDA is not the law of the land; not yet anyway. As it relates to transgender people, GENDA is not the law of the land either. We are STILL in the days where sexual minorities can be fired from their employment in MOST places. If you want to roll the dice, that's a biggie. Repercussions are one thing. Having no legal protections is something else again.

[Kelley]

There are so many misconceptions out in the general public that make it so difficult to gain acceptance even among women. My wife and I were out to dinner about 4 months ago and ran into a couple we knew. They told us they were at a local bar the night before and "3 transvestites came in and the really looked bad, they were at the bar trying to pick up men". I said wow you saw them hitting on men. The wife said no, but you know that's what they do. As I started to open my mouth to comment my wife flashed me a look that made me stop before I outed myself. You see us portrayed this in many movies.

Even though I think women are more accepting there is still the eeeew factor because of the misconception. It is difficult to educate people without outing yourself. Kind of a catch 22.

[Ciara09]

I don’t agree with the idea that being gay is more acceptable than cd-ing. Well, for one thing some cders are also gay so its not exactly like you’re either one or the other.

But for being straight and being a cd, that’s a much easier life than the life of a gay person.

Me for example, I was able to meet and fall in love with a woman and get married. She is what makes me happy in life more so than anything, cding is not important enough for me to let it ruin the relationship that is the foundation of my contentment with life. Luckily, since I’m not gay, I haven’t had to deal with any alienation from my family or friends just because of being in a relationship with somebody that I love more than anything.

I think that’s the thing about being gay that makes it harder than being a CD, if you’re gay, you need to live a gay lifestyle to be happy, in fact you need to live a gay lifestyle to be anything other than miserable. And living a gay lifestyle means that you may experience a lot of alienation from family and friends. But you have no choice if you want to be happy.

I guess being gay is similar to being transsexual in that way, but not all cders are transsexual as we all know here. But if you wanted to reframe the question if it’s easier to gain acceptance as a gay person than as a transsexual, I think it’s probably easier to gain acceptance as a gay person, but probably not by much. It still a very steep challenge, either way.

[Tanya J]

I couldn't agree more. Many of us have brought our family into this and this is not their responsibility to take up the cause nor should we ask them to. In this situation protecting the feelings of your loved one is priority #1, no one should ever put activism above someone who genuinely cares for you

[Beverley Sims]

From my experience talking with women, Gay men are not a threat to them they have boyfriends and seem so understanding of women.
men who dress up in womens clothes generally look and act weird.
When I asked what about me? the reply was we know you you have been weird for years.
The truth emerges that some CD's want to hit on with women and their approach is sleazy to say the least.
They claim to know all about women and use suggestive statements and this weirds out women.
Sometimes I think we are to blame for our own shortcomings.
Me, they think I am safe. They just don't know the predator in me.
Wat it all boils down to is your approach to women, if they are aprehensive of you, stay away, when you are welcomed into a group as you will be because women are curious beings, answer the questions honestly and use clever humor, not gutter overtones.
If you have a subject to talk about, make it an interesting one.
They don't want to know how to pick up friends they are already doing it.

Funny lot women.

[Badtranny]

That was unfair.
Some people have dependents - not everyone is cut out to be a soldier, and not everyone is in a situation where doing that would be even remotely fair to others.
It ain't always just about us.

It was pointed, but not unfair. We don't come out because we lack the courage to do so. The threat of collateral damage is real and we just don't want to face it. So we hide who we are. This is in fact perfectly reasonable given our current culture, but there are those who step out anyway. Do they have less to lose? Perhaps, but the desire to live is greater than the desire to hide, sometimes to the great detriment of the courageous. Sometimes being courageous is indistinguishable from being a martyr.

Paula, this comment isn't about you specifically. It's merely my thoughts that happened to be spurred by your earlier comment.



So, let me understand. One lacks courage if you value the relative stability of your life in terms of your marriage, your kids, your work situation, etc? You know, if you want to gamble with something, I'd say that's a high stakes game...

Yes it is, but consider this. One does not have to come out as a CD to affect change within their circle of friends. Maybe they could just come out as a compassionate and evolving person who sees gender bending as just harmless fun in the pantheon of human expression.



It is difficult to educate people without outing yourself. Kind of a catch 22.

Not true and this is the root of the problem. If every CD were to simply begin defending other people's right to express themselves to their conservative friends instead of just joining in with the trash talking then that alone could effect huge change. How about "Oh, they're not any different than us, they're just regular people who like different things". How is saying something like that outing yourself?

You know back in the '60s there was only one thing lower than a ni**er down in the south, and that was a ni**er lover. People were reluctant to show support for integration among their friends for fear that they would be called that name. So if you can't be honest as a CD, can you at least be a CD lover? Can't you at least support other people for having the courage to dance to their own drum? What's wrong with being openly accepting of other lifestyles? Are you afraid people might think you were open minded and compassionate?

[KellyJameson]

Sexuality is private but gender is public and this is the crux of the problem.

Crossdressing may be tolerated but it will never be accepted because it runs contrary to the self interest of to many people of both sexes.

Most people like their world to be black and white and easily understood because this requires less work and also creates less anxiety, or so it is assumed.

I think black and white thinking creates anxiety personally as an out growth of the need for security.

Bending gender creates problems because it makes many people uncomfortable.

Even with sex many of the problems start when sex becomes a "in your face" experience.

[PaulaQ]

Do they have less to lose? Perhaps, but the desire to live is greater than the desire to hide, sometimes to the great detriment of the courageous. Sometimes being courageous is indistinguishable from being a martyr.

My point is that sometimes there are dependents involved, and in some cases, how much right do we really have to affect their lives so that we feel better about ourselves? This is not an easy calculus, and will vary from situation to situation. Even if you don't much care what happens to yourself, the idea of hurting your family is awful for many.


Not true and this is the root of the problem. If every CD were to simply begin defending other people's right to express themselves to their conservative friends instead of just joining in with the trash talking then that alone could effect huge change. How about "Oh, they're not any different than us, they're just regular people who like different things". How is saying something like that outing yourself?

You know back in the '60s there was only one thing lower than a ni**er down in the south, and that was a ni**er lover. People were reluctant to show support for integration among their friends for fear that they would be called that name. So if you can't be honest as a CD, can you at least be a CD lover? Can't you at least support other people for having the courage to dance to their own drum? What's wrong with being openly accepting of other lifestyles? Are you afraid people might think you were open minded and compassionate?

I can agree with this wholeheartedly. This is an excellent point. Sometimes it seems the path is "all or nothing." But you are right, there are other ways, and I think a lot of times while the initial spade work may be done by people who are very courageous and take a lot personal risk, the foundation of opinion gets laid more quietly, when regular folks just begin to understand "yeah, ok, that's NOT right the way those folks are being treated."

[NV Susan]

Many of the posts talk about our acceptance by women, and I think in my time it's improved, but how about acceptance by guys? Will we ever get there?

I've also wondered if FTM cross dressers are accepted more that MTF? They may have an easier time of it....

Guess I've asked more questions than I answered.

[Badtranny]

My point is that sometimes there are dependents involved, and in some cases, how much right do we really have to affect their lives so that we feel better about ourselves? This is not an easy calculus, and will vary from situation to situation. Even if you don't much care what happens to yourself, the idea of hurting your family is awful for many.

Yes I agree completely. I am well aware that everybody's circumstances are quite different and what may be devastating for one, may just be really uncomfortable for another. There are always exceptions and there are always external pressures that no one else can comprehend but my position doesn't address any of that. My position is simple, if you can be true to yourself than do it, if you can't than do the best you can. There is a difference between being closeted and being private.



I can agree with this wholeheartedly. This is an excellent point. Sometimes it seems the path is "all or nothing." But you are right, there are other ways, and I think a lot of times while the initial spade work may be done by people who are very courageous and take a lot personal risk, the foundation of opinion gets laid more quietly, when regular folks just begin to understand "yeah, ok, that's NOT right the way those folks are being treated."

Good gracious Paula I do believe we have arrived at a consensus!

Even though I'm not gay, (I used to be) I always defend the rights of homosexuals. I do pass for the most part as a woman now, yet I would never not speak out in support of lesbians for fear that someone may think I was a lesbian. When I speak out in support of law enforcement, do people think I'm a cop?

[melissakozak]

People skirting the gender boundaries and binary still have a way to go in the world at large, but I agree with Melissa about some of her CD friends...I go out, a lot, and regularly, and so far, I have found the world to be at least tolerant, for the most part. Does the world at large understand us? Not really and not too well, but as more and more of us are willing to come out of hiding and go out in public and be seen for who we truly are, the more things will change in a positive direction. Just in the last twenty years, much progress has been made for trans people of all stripes..but I also firmly believe that if we move confidently and politely in the world, it helps us. If we are kind, the world often is very kind back to us. We truly do get what we give, and though at times it may seem the world is against us, if we love our world, it often will love us back....

[Ciara09]

Sexuality is private but gender is public and this is the crux of the problem.

Crossdressing may be tolerated but it will never be accepted because it runs contrary to the self interest of to many people of both sexes.

Most people like their world to be black and white and easily understood because this requires less work and also creates less anxiety, or so it is assumed.

I think black and white thinking creates anxiety personally as an out growth of the need for security.

Bending gender creates problems because it makes many people uncomfortable.

Even with sex many of the problems start when sex becomes a "in your face" experience.

That's not true, gay people can't just go through life not telling anyone they're gay. Specifics of a person sex life are private but you can't hide your sex orientation from everyone and still expect to have healthy relationships. CDers who cd for sexual reasons can get away with hiding it because its a fetish and therefore really is no ones business but their own especially if they do it alone.

But being gay is a lifestyle, not a fetish. If you crossdress and you're straight, there's not as much of a burden to come out. You can stay in the closet and still have healthy relationships. Gay people don't have that luxury, if they don't come out they are forced to live a lie.

[andrea lace]

I had to think long and hard on weather to tell my wife I like to CD
like Paula Q I have a family and had to weigh up the pros and cons before letting the Elephant burst into the room. I guess I was very lucky to have a truly supportive wife. We decided not to tell our children as it would cause to many problems for them considering we live in a small town and they are both teenage boys. My wife and I both use this forum and and have read a few threads where its all about me me me is this a common personality trait among CDers?. I believe that the gay community are less conspicuous than that of a man walking around town dressed as a woman IMHO.

[PrincessLuLu]

I think people are more accepting of a gay person rather than a CDer because they know what gay means. Gay = same sex relationships. While everyone doesn't agree with it, they know what the word means when someone says they're gay. When someone says they're a crossdresser, or even better...transgendered... most people have NO IDEA what that really means.

"Do you wear girl clothes? Do you wear a wig and makeup too? Do you have a penis or a vagina? Does that mean you have BOTH a penis and a vagina? Are you gay? Why are you married to a woman if you want to be a girl? You can't have REAL boobs if you were born a MAN!"

Most people have either met or known a gay person. Most people have not known a crossdresser or a TG person. (maybe they have and didn't know the person was TG. not relevant to my point) It's hard to readily accept something that you know nothing about. I don't think everyone that is put off by a CD is necessarily unaccepting of the CDer.. It's just that they don't know what to think of it and have their guards up. Also consider that most gay people don't go around with a huge I'M GAY sign. Just because someone doesn't notice a gay person does not mean that they accept that gay person.


--regarding the topic of outting yourself to help with CD/TG acceptance--

My husband hasn't expressed any desire to go out in public while dressed up. He's actually specifically said that he'd rather not. And there's no reason to. How would it benefit us as a couple, as a family, him as a CDer?? He gets dressed up and we just hang out at home like we would any other day. There's nothing to be achieved by having friends, family, or total strangers "accept" that part of us. I don't think it's fair to assume that ALL CDers need to be "accepted" by the outside world. What if the CDer is satisfied with themselves already? Should they martyr themselves anyways for the cause?

We are both bisexual and very much into BDSM as a lifestyle, but we don't go around announcing that to everyone. Why would we? So we could insist that our own views and preferences are the only right way to go and then deal with the confusion our unnecessary confession caused?

I also think some people just don't like the look of a man in a dress. *shrugs* I don't like the look of men in baggy pants. Doesn't mean I hate them.

I'm all for acceptance of TG people, but not every TG person is the same as the next. Gay = Gay. Crossdresser = So many different things for each person.

[Ciara09]

I think people are more accepting of a gay person rather than a CDer because they know what gay means. Gay = same sex relationships. While everyone doesn't agree with it, they know what the word means when someone says they're gay. When someone says they're a crossdresser, or even better...transgendered... most people have NO IDEA what that really means.


That's true, but just because people are more likely to understand being gay doesn't mean they embrace it or think its a good thing.

For example if I told my parents I was a crossdresser, and explained to them that it's something I do alone and I would never let it interfere with my relationship with my wife, they probably wouldn't understand, it might make them think less of me, but I can already picture them thinking to themselves, "well at least he's not gay."

Being gay is heavier, it effects more aspects of your life than being a crossdresser, and like it or not there are still lots and lots of people out there who think being gay is a degrading and shameful thing, and it's probably more prevalent of an attitude then most of the posters in this thread seem to recognize.

I guess the one thing I really want to say is that they are not even comparable, I don't think straight cders myself included will ever have to fight as hard for acceptance as gay people or transsexuals. Not even close really.

[melissakozak]

I think for CDers who are happy at home and express no desire to go out in public, there is no reason to disclose anything to anyone because it can be kept private and behind closed doors. For some of us, however, this is not an option, as we are out and about in the daylight, shopping, dining and doing whatever everyone else does...albeit, en femme. So, I guess it depends on the needs of the person, ultimately.

[Badtranny]

When someone says they're a crossdresser, or even better...transgendered... most people have NO IDEA what that really means.

Sure but you do and your advocacy alone would go a long way to helping change the world. Why not just speak out in favor of trans people when the opportunity presents itself?



--regarding the topic of outting yourself to help with CD/TG acceptance--

How would it benefit us as a couple, as a family, him as a CDer?? There's nothing to be achieved by having friends, family, or total strangers "accept" that part of us.

I don't believe that everyone should out themselves. I just think they should be openly supportive of the lifestyle. If you're not able to be yourself for whatever reason, you should at least be able to tell your friends to mind their own business when you hear them talking trash about YOUR husband's private activities.



We are both bisexual and very much into BDSM as a lifestyle, but we don't go around announcing that to everyone. Why would we?

Why would you indeed, but if you had a friend who told you she is dumping her boyfriend because he asked her to participate in some form of BDSM and then goes on to say how awful those people are and how she wishes she could find a great guy like yours. What do you say? Do you agree with her and smugly wish her well, or do you get real with her and tell her that there's nothing wrong with that stuff and he may not necessarily be a bad guy just because he's a little freaky. "you know me and the hubby like to play around sometimes too"

Do you take the opportunity to educate and inform or do you slink away in your shame?



So we could insist that our own views and preferences are the only right way to go

I like your style LuLu, but this quote indicates to me that you have some reservations about your interests and if so, I encourage you to reflect on what you don't accept about your lifestyle and why. Having the freedom to express yourself and/or your sexuality does not mean that anybody's views are the ONLY right way to go. Personally I have no interest at all in BDSM so it wouldn't matter to me at all if some politician wanted to make those kinds of clubs illegal. It wouldn't affect me or my lifestyle one tiny bit if the feds launched a war on BDSM to appease some conservative group in the deep south.

How would you react if the 'No on Bondage Clubs' vote came to town. Would you let your friends stick a sign in your yard? Would you campaign against it? Would you campaign FOR it? If you spoke out in favor of it, would you be afraid that somebody would think you were 'one of them'? If you admitted that you did in fact enjoy some BDSM with your hubby, would you feel like you were insisting that only your views are correct, or would you just want the simple right to your own views?

Ya see, being brave can mean a lot more than just coming out. Being brave can mean a lot less too. It can mean something as simple as speaking out for the simple right to privacy and the pursuit of happiness for your fellow humans.

I don't give a damn about BDSM, but I would stand right next to you in support of your right to privacy and your freedom to live your life in peace.

Hmmm, maybe that IS the only way to go.

[DebbieL]

Just a question for everyone here gg's or cd's.
I'm a CD/TS and have been working with other Transgendered people, both MtF and FtM for many years, since I first came out publicly over 20 years ago.


Do you think that being homosexual is more accepted than being a crossdresser and why?

Several corporations have stated that we should use the acronym LGBT instead of GLBT based on the number of people who are "in the closet", the more accurate term might be "living in stealth mode".

Women often engage in public displays of affection, hugging, kissing, touching, supporting each other, and it's widely accepted. Lesbians are often depicted in even the most "vanilla" of adult movies and videos.

Gay men tend to stay closeted until high school, when many of the more effeminate young men tend to be approached by other more masculine gay men. This can sometimes be a problem if the effeminate young man is actually a transgender attempting to live in stealth mode.

Bisexuals often struggle because they are caught between the gay world and the straight world. Often, there are "straight" partners who think it would be cool to have a bisexual partner for a 3-way, but the prospect of losing one's wife to another woman, or one's husband to another man kills the fantasy pretty quickly. It's hard enough to have two people stay in a relationship for a long time, but the dynamics of 3 can be strenuous at best.

Transgenders have the biggest challenge. When you look at the boys in kindergarten or early first grade, you can easily see that about one in four boys tends to enjoy playing with the girls as much or more than they enjoy playing with the boys. However, later in the year, or early second grade, the girls are told that they can't play with boys and the boys start calling the boys who want to play with girls "Sissy". At first it's just teasing and verbal, but eventually, the name calling turns to bullying and violence. The violence can escalate to the point where the "Sissy" needs to be hospitalized. Often, those with health issues such as asthma, epilepsy, or immunity issues can become so stressed that they will need to be hospitalized for these conditions on a regular basis.

Many transgenders then isolate themselves. Furthermore, they find stories about both boys and girls too painful to read, since they can't be part of either world. Instead, they immerse themselves in non-fiction, learning a great deal about science, geography, religion, and technology. This is also when they often begin covert cross-dressing. The problem with this is that they often have to steal the clothes from a sister or even a mother, and this just compounds the shame and guilt. Some try to compensate by becoming more religious, often praying to be transformed into the girl of their dreams. Tomboys are a bit more accepted, but often have to fight and posture to gain their position in the pecking order, sometimes even becoming the "alpha" of their group.

During puberty and high school, many are expressing their sexual preferences and many transgenders are misread as being homosexual because they seem so much like the "queens" who act more effeminate in order to attract other guys.

Transgenders often become "boy buddies" or "close friends" with many different girls. They may engage in necking and kissing, but tend to want the girl to show him that she wants him, rather than trying to force himself on her. Some transgenders will even resist becoming sexual with a woman, transsexuals often feel that they shouldn't want it, or that they don't want to be men, and sex is part of that. Others are still hoping that they will be accepted as one of the girls, and others still live in the hope of somehow being transformed into a girl. Often, they have also associated sexual arousal with cross-dressing (often a secondary effect), and find it hard to become aroused when they are not dressed - and don't want to dress on a date in case the girl does try to reach into his pants.

This living in "Stealth mode" often continues, and after being rejected by one or two girls for admitting to cross-dressing, or hinting, they go into "deep cover", and even try to date, get engaged, and even get married without telling their wives about their transgender desires. Some men don't tell their wives for years, even decades, limiting their expression to cross-dressing only while on business trips, or when they know the family will be away for several hours.

Depending on how well they maintain "deep stealth mode", their wives my not even suspect. Which makes them feel even more betrayed and upset when their husbands reveal the truth to them. In many cases, the wife feels so deceived that she may want a divorce, and may even want to prevent visitation with the children, especially if he has attempted to be either an "Alpha male" or very religious.

Even if the truth comes out early in the relationship, if it's after the wife has fallen in love, possibly even discovers that he is a very good "lesbian lover", she may want to make it work, even though she has neither bisexual nor lesbian fantasies. Secretly, she may be yearning for an alpha male, but is afraid to ruin the relationship. When things get more complicated by marriage, children, financial inter-dependency, and good old fashioned love, real love, it can become a very frustrating situation in which both partners become sexually frustrated.

Media doesn't help either. For decades, television has used really bad cross-dressing for comic effect. Uncle Miltie (Milton Berle), Monty Python, and many other television shows and movies have been based on men dressed as very ugly women. Often, when a man reveals to a woman that he is a cross-dresser, the woman has flashes of those kinds of images. At best, they might imagine Tom Hanks in "Bosom Buddies" or Rue Paul. Some really good cross-dressing where the man is credible as a woman usually involves murder or suspense, Psycho - the serial killer Anthony Perkins, Dressed to Kill - Michael Cain, Freebie & the Bean - the beautiful assassin, the Crying Game. And finally, there are the fantasy movies and shows, where the character, played by a male, finds themselves in the body of a woman, played by a female actor. Several 60's sitcoms and dramas showed this, movies such as Myra Breckenridge, Dr Jekyll and Ms Hyde, and Switch with Ellen Barkin come to mind.

Some women suspect that their love interest might be a "sissy", but are afraid to ruin a good thing by "pulling the covers" on a loving man who might be totally threatened by any attempt to point out how cute he would look as a girl. Furthermore, the CD is so good at living in stealth mode that he would deny any interest to protect his secret, since he is afraid that if it doesn't work out, she might let others know.

Personally, I have found that the women who really clicked with me were the ones who took control early and let me know right away that they wanted to have sex with me. When they did that, I was eager to please and easy to please. In my case, I knew I wasn't "well hung", which was good because I didn't want the penis and wanted to put my balls back up where they had stayed hidden for the first 11 years of my life. As a result I was more willing to perform cunnilingus, use fingers, and use vibrators, dildos, and other "toys". Often, the women had such intense orgasms that they "took possession" and were very careful not to let out ANY of my little secrets (or talents) to ANYONE. Unfortunately, they usually ended up wanting an "Alpha male" as well, who didn't want to share, and eventually would end it with me. Since I had been kept such a good secret, it could be years between lovers.

Some women assume that because their husband is transgendered, that they are "Sissies", and may assume that they are submissive, which can often be a serious struggle, since even a transgendered man my feel that his sexual pleasure is the one aspect of being male that he actually likes.

Often, the transgender has to go through the discovery process in reverse. At first they might only admit to being a transvestite, admitting only to wanting to dress up for sexual purposes, they may even try to limit themselves to specific fetishes, then they admit to being transvestites, then they admit to being cross-dressers, wanting to dress completely like women, including wigs, then they admit to being transgendered, and they may eventually admit to themselves and others that they are transsexuals, that - if they really thought they could - they would live the rest of their lives as women.


to me it seems that women are more comfortable around a gay man than a cross-dresser it could just be me,

There are as many different types of women as there are types of men. They may be uncomfortable when they realize that you have been using the ladies' bathroom even though you are a man. Even though we are generally very careful about keeping our eyes to ourselves, many women fear that a transsexual is also a voyeur, they don't want to be seen by a male who might share information with other men.

Ironically, part of the discomfort both men and women have with transgenders is the entire stealth aspect. When someone you have known for weeks, months, or years suddenly comes forward and shares that they want to live as women, whether on a part time or full time basis, it becomes clear how much he has been living in deception. It's like finding out that someone is a spy or an undercover cop. Even if they aren't going to arrest you, the trust is gone, how much is a lie? How long have they lied? What else have they lied about? Are they still lying to themselves?


but i wonder why given that there is still a false stereotype that many cd's are

It is a natural human trait to fear the unknown, whether it's a child afraid of the dark, making commitments in a new relationship, starting a new job, moving to a new city, making new friends. The hardest part is letting go to of the old and making room for the new. It's why we fear change.

Unfortunately it's our ability to live in stealth for years, even decades that makes it so hard for others to understand. Ironically, as more of us come out, people are gradually becoming more tolerant. More and more people are coming to terms the reality that transgenders may be in stealth.

Another development is that police now investigate suicides, examining the cell phone records and computers of victims. Police are discovering that a substantial number of suicides and fatal "accidents" are because the victim was transgendered and was either outed or rejected by a loved one. In alcohol and drug treatment centers, they are also finding out that repressed sexual preference and gender identity issues can often be a driving force in the self destructive behaviors.

It's only been in the last 2 years that any empirical studies have been done transgendered using any substantial samples. A research study in 2011 with 15,000 transgendered people, mostly men, provided some significant and ominous insights. As a result, the American Psychology Association decided last year that it was UNETHICAL for a therapist to attempt to convince a transgender client to accept their birth gender. In 2012, the American Psychiatric Association declared the same thing. Only 3 years ago, the accepted practice was to discourage transition, attempting to paint a worst case scenario.

Harry Benjamin's paper wasn't published until 1968, and even up to that time, most transgenders were treated with electro-shock, "ice pick" lobotomy, and full frontal lobotomy. Essentially, the assumption was that the personality that was transgendered had to be eliminated in order for the patient to survive, even if the patient ended up being a vegetable, having to spend the rest of their lives in institutions.

For many women, the concept of a man wanting to give up the power and control of being born male, being a man, seems unnatural. Many women work very hard to make it in what they consider to be a "man's world", often adopting masculine strategies, and want to be able to have the same power and control over their lives that men have. They assume that transgenders have no clue what they are giving up.

[GaleWarning]

I guess there's an aura around us. Women even fear us(just kidding):heehee:

I think that society fears us. Crossdressing teachers in particular are viewed in a negative light. Can't let people like us work with children you know ... kids could be at risk around those people whom the authorities just can't make out; which is a shame, given that we understand more than most the anxieties of the LGBT students at school and the subtleties of the bullying one comes across all the time.

[flatlander_48]

I think that society fears us. Crossdressing teachers in particular are viewed in a negative light. Can't let people like us work with children you know ... kids could be at risk around those people whom the authorities just can't make out; which is a shame, given that we understand more than most the anxieties of the LGBT students at school and the subtleties of the bullying one comes across all the time.

I have a saying:

"In the absence of information, people will make up their own."

People tend to understand very little beyond the binary definition of sexuality. Any notion of things outside of that binary definition and people are thrown into WTF-land. We know that all those silly thoughts, prejudices and excuses are no more true than urban legends, but to many folks it is the rock solid truth and in total agreement with their misinformation.

[PrincessLuLu]

Sure but you do and your advocacy alone would go a long way to helping change the world. Why not just speak out in favor of trans people when the opportunity presents itself?
I can honestly say the opportunity has never presented itself. However, if it ever does, I have no problem speaking in favor of the trans community as a whole.



I don't believe that everyone should out themselves. I just think they should be openly supportive of the lifestyle. If you're not able to be yourself for whatever reason, you should at least be able to tell your friends to mind their own business when you hear them talking trash about YOUR husband's private activities.
This is where it starts to get iffy for me. If I have a friend or family member who is as you say, talking trash, or being openly being cruel to someone, I would most certainly tell them what I know about the subject. If I have a friend or family member who does a double/triple take when a CD walks by and looks shocked or makes a remark about how they don't like the look of feminine boys, I wouldn't likely say anything. They haven't done anything wrong, just either lack experience with the content or just plain don't care for it.



Why would you indeed, but if you had a friend who told you she is dumping her boyfriend because he asked her to participate in some form of BDSM and then goes on to say how awful those people are and how she wishes she could find a great guy like yours. What do you say? Do you agree with her and smugly wish her well, or do you get real with her and tell her that there's nothing wrong with that stuff and he may not necessarily be a bad guy just because he's a little freaky. "you know me and the hubby like to play around sometimes too"
If I had a friend who dumped her boyfriend for being overly kinky, I'd try to consider her reasons. I definitely wouldn't "smugly wish her well" because there's no point in that. If she's TRULY uninformed, then I'd probably suggest she do a bit of research on it before she makes her decision on the idea. If she just doesn't care for it and thinks it's barbaric and gross or even just not her cup of sexy tea... Who am I to tell her she's wrong?


Do you take the opportunity to educate and inform or do you slink away in your shame?
You seem to think these are the only two options everyone has. To stand up and be an outspoken advocate (outed or not) or to hide away in secret shame. I disagree on that.




I like your style LuLu, but this quote indicates to me that you have some reservations about your interests and if so, I encourage you to reflect on what you don't accept about your lifestyle and why. Having the freedom to express yourself and/or your sexuality does not mean that anybody's views are the ONLY right way to go. Personally I have no interest at all in BDSM so it wouldn't matter to me at all if some politician wanted to make those kinds of clubs illegal. It wouldn't affect me or my lifestyle one tiny bit if the feds launched a war on BDSM to appease some conservative group in the deep south.


I fully accept my lifestyle. I just feel no pressure to have everyone else agree with me on it.

I didn't intend for the sentence you quoted to come across as being literal. Should have expounded further... My bad, yall.

I feel like some people are so deeply rooted in the idea of "if you're not 100% with it, you're 100% against it" that they totally block the possibility of it coming down to the OTHER person's preferences and beliefs which can be just as legitimate as our own.

Acceptance =/= Agree with

While I totally disagree with anyone being intentionally hurtful to another person for whatever reason, I don't think it's fair to assume that everyone who expresses a dislike for a certain cause is against someone. *omg my brain hurts now*

Examples:
Baptist Church member toting around picket signs and spouting off about how God hates gay people or trans people or black people or people with freckles and they will all burn in hell. <--badbadbad

Baptist Church member who finds out his work buddy is gay and says he'd prefer if Gay Buddy didn't talk to him about his relationships. <-- Legitimate personal preference



How would you react if the 'No on Bondage Clubs' vote came to town. Would you let your friends stick a sign in your yard? Would you campaign against it? Would you campaign FOR it? If you spoke out in favor of it, would you be afraid that somebody would think you were 'one of them'? If you admitted that you did in fact enjoy some BDSM with your hubby, would you feel like you were insisting that only your views are correct, or would you just want the simple right to your own views?

If the no on bondage clubs came to town, I wouldn't give a hoot because I don't go to bondage clubs :/
If my friends disagreed with it, they can stick a sign in their own yard.
I don't campaign, but I'd vote against it.
I have no fears of being 'one of them', but that doesn't mean I'd be passing out campaign buttons either.
If I admitted we had some kinky practices, I wouldn't feel like I was insisting that only my views are correct. If I stopped every person with a "SAY NO TO WHIPS" sign and told them that they were just uninformed and ignorant then I would feel like I was pushing my views on them. That's just me.

[Angela Campbell]

Ever thought that we are not so easily accepted in part because of the appearance? A gay or lesbian does not usually look any different than anyone else, but we do. This simple thing makes us stand out more. Yes if you really, really look convincing there is no problem but many of us can be clocked. Can the fact that we look different be a factor?

[Stephanie47]

I once heard a woman say when her man turned out to be gay that she could compete with another woman to keep her man. But, how do you compete with a man? A gay man is really no threat to her. He's not going to hit on her. A cross dressing male is probably thrown into the same boat, if he is presenting as a female. The vast majority of women are going to be predisposed to rejecting a cross dressing man- sterotypical behavior. It seems the inner conflict arises when a relationship has developed without full disclosure. I've never heard a woman making jokes that she could make a gay or cross dresser change his ways, although may men joke they would be able to turn a lesbian into a heterosexual due to their sexual prowess. BS.

[Jamie001]

Ever thought that we are not so easily accepted in part because of the appearance? A gay or lesbian does not usually look any different than anyone else, but we do. This simple thing makes us stand out more. Yes if you really, really look convincing there is no problem but many of us can be clocked. Can the fact that we look different be a factor?

Yes the fact that we look different can be a big factor. In my case it is not such a big factor because I don't attempt to deceive anyone into thinking that I'm a woman. I am simply a feminine male that incorporates feminine items into my overall look such as Capri pants, nail polish, femme hair-style and a women's purse, but it can be seen that I'm clearly a male. I am the opposite of a Tomboy. I believe that is feminine male is much more easily accepted as compared to a full-on crossdresser that doesn't pass. For the crossdresser that does pass it is completely a non-issue because folks believe that they are seeing and/or interacting with a real woman.

[ArleneRaquel]

Crossdressers are gaining more & more acceptance, but gays/lesbians are way ahead and they have been working longer at gaining acceptance than the CD community.

[DebbieL]

Crossdressers are gaining more & more acceptance, but gays/lesbians are way ahead and they have been working longer at gaining acceptance than the CD community.

Keep in mind that Kinsey released his research in 1955, while Harry Benjamin didn't release his research until 1969. That would put us about 14 years behind the gay community, even if there were no other limiting factors.

There are also cultural factors as well. Native American cultures consider transsexuals to be "Two Spirit" people, and are believed to have special psychic and prophetic powers as well as being able to understand both the world of male and female.

In India, the Hijiri are believed to have the ability to grant their masculinity to other male children, and their femininity to female children. They are considered more like priestesses, with many other magical powers and insight. They are believed to be a high cast. Brahma, the creator god, has 4 faces, one of which is female. The Hijiri are similarly multifaceted - having qualities of creation, destruction, redemption, and compassion, in a single body.

[PaulaQ]

Keep in mind that Kinsey released his research in 1955, while Harry Benjamin didn't release his research until 1969. That would put us about 14 years behind the gay community, even if there were no other limiting factors.


Aren't there just significantly fewer of us than gay people? I realize there is overlap in these sets, still, aren't gay people (i.e. someone who is gay with no gender issues) about 5x-10x more numerous than trans people? Do you think that is a factor?

[Vicky_Scot]

Interesting question.

Gay community are tolerated by society in general but not accepted.

Even after all these years of campaigning the gay community are still frowned upon by many.

But you do realise the gay community do not accept crossdressers...........FACT

So they are hypocrites.

Crossdressing accepted by the general public...........never.

Crossdressing tolerated by the general public...........maybe.

[mandytg]

Here in the Uk Gays and Lesbians are generally accepted in society, same sex marriage is now accepted, Transexuals are now being better understood, and our National Health Service offer transitional counselling and sexual re asiignment surgery. The crossdressers does not receive this level of acceptance, perhaps at this stage all we crossdressers can hope for is tollerance, and hopefully in years to come acceptance. and a roll in society that gay people have.

[xdressed]

I haven't read through all the posts so sorry if my points have already come up. I think most of it is ignorance, as we are generally more closeted than our LGB cousins and thus there are less of us standing up for ourselves or explaining things to people. The general feeling I get from many people is they think we are 'lying' in some way, pretending to be a woman, which to them is something we are not in any sense because they don't even slightly understand the concept of emotional identity (even most of the people I know who are accepting of crossdressing don't understand at all either and seem to just turn off when I try to explain it to them). I also think it's partly because we are much more visually oriented than gay people. There is a sterotype of what gay people look like but many if not most of them don't actually dress or act like that (Stephen Fry is the most obvious example of this that comes to my mind) whereas if someone is crossdressing, people are more likely to notice.

[Maria S]

Just a question for everyone here gg's or cd's. Do you think that being homosexual is more accepted than being a crossdresser and why? to me it seems that women are more comfortable around a gay man than a crossdresser it could just be me, but i wonder why given that there is still a false stereotype that many cd's are

Homosexual seems to be more accepted than CD. It seems to be when your parents are told it is "as long as you are happy, shame we will never be grandparents". It seems to be accepted as inevitable that a certain percentage of mankind are going to be either gay or lesbian. It seems that people think CDing is just some kind of perverted game that we are playing perhaps to gain attention. In my experience women are very accepting of CDers more so than men. Men seem to think it is letting the masculine team down and they can't understand or don't want to understand why. Women seem to accept it more perhaps they understand the enjoyment of being feminine, the clothes, the hair, the shoes etc. I can't really comment about women being comfortable around gay men as it has been a long time since I have been in a position to judge.

Maria

[Tanya J]

I have to believe that the possibility for a more accepting culture is there. All of us have heard the argument that it was not that long ago that women wearing pants was frowned upon. We have reached a point as a society that women are doing many things that were once out of the question to them as female. I don't think twice about a woman doing the same thing i do as a occupation, yet it wasn't that long ago that was not the case. I personally hope that as a community we can step through some of these barriers more graciously than many other groups have in trying to push their causes. There have been so many wonderful points brought up in this thread on ways to do just that. Thank you all so much for your input

[Marleena]

Here's something to ponder. Could you tell the difference between a man in a dress or a gay man in a dress?

[sometimes_miss]

Thanks for stating this simple fact. Also, everyone should understand that if you friends won't accept that you are a crossdresser then they were never really your friends to begin with. Telling and showing friends that you are a crossdressers is a great litmus test to determine who your real friends are. If you can't be yourself around friends, then these so called "friends" are not worth having.
Easy to say, hard to do. At 50, I'm not willing to cut ties to everyone just on principle. I've already lost family members and friends because of this, I'm not going to become a social hermit just because some other crossdressers think it's a good idea and helps 'the cause'.
This thread is quickly becoming another 'everyone must be out' one. No thanks. My life is difficult enough without all the additional problems that I'd have to deal with by coming out to the world. And if you can't imagine any of those problems, just read through all the old threads on this topic. I'm not going to list it all again.

[Wildaboutheels]

How many Gay friends do you have Tanya? Or how many do you know personally? How do you KNOW that they are gay? IS it possible you have some gay friends you are not even aware of? I have met gay people [men] who DO have a "higher pitched/softer" voice. And/or DO walk a bit differently. But I have also known both gay men and women for years and never knew they were gay. Till THEY themselves told me. As gays gain ever increasing LEGAL rights, isn't it likely that more gay people are no longer "hiding"? So more people are becoming aware that there are "plenty" of gay people out there who are "perfectly normal" other than their sexual preference? People who do just as good a job at work, if not better and "contributing to Society" as "normal" people? Do gay people NEED to go around telling others "Hey, I think you should know I'm gay?

I think [just my best guess] that most people's idea here of "acceptance" is just to be able to go out "dressed" to some extent and not be bothered, laughed at or insulted in any way.

There are many here who hang out behind their computers whining endlessly about Mean Ol' Society, who have NEVER left their closets. But claim to want to. And would. If not for Mean Ol' Society...

The REALITY is that Society does not care and there are hundreds of people here who go out on a regular basis who can attest to this. Maybe the whiners think it is some kind of mass conspiracy and that all the people over the years who have reported their adventures here are all lying? How many folks do you think read these Forums and never bother to chime in? And how many people who go out on a regular basis and "could never pass in a million years"/don't even try to pass [their own terms] have ever reported ANY threats of violence/baseball bats/pitchforks etc.?

Of course maybe the whiners have their own idea of just what "acceptance" IS and ISN'T?

[arbon]

It's a lot harder for people to get their mind around hetrosexual men wanting to dress as women then it is for to understand same sex attraction.

[RonniCD]

Wow! So many great comments and points of view here, and many of the posts resonate for me.

I’ve discussed this very topic with my S/O several times over the past year, way before joining this forum.

I believe that being homosexual is more accepted by our society than being a crossdresser, and my basis for that belief comes from the reactions of gay & lesbian folks themselves that I have either witnessed personally or anecdotally secondhand. I’m in California, the land of “fruits and nuts” to much of the rest of the country (LOL), and crossdressers, by and large, are still are on the fringe of society, behind many other subcultures even here. Admittedly, I'm talking about acceptance by a slice of society, and not society as a whole, but I want to share this.

I have 4 stories, but the one that really rang my bell was the one of my S/O’s former co-worker (let’s call her Katy). Katy was married with children, until she met Cally, who she now lives with full time and is her mate. My S/O was visiting Katy, and somehow the topic came up of a man they both used to work with (call him Jim) about 20 years ago. Jim approached Katy, knowing that she was openly lesbian, and confided in her that he was a crossdresser and asked if she would help with some makeup tips or go shopping. She was appalled and offended that he would dare consider her gayness as anything like crossdressing and flatly refused him. Not only that, but she outed him to my S/O by name and probably has done it to anyone else who knew him. There was nothing about the circumstance that I heard in the story that he approached her in a creepy way or that sought anything but some sympathetic advice with his secret. They were friends when they worked together.

I have directly experienced 3 other instances of gay men deriding crossdressing with contempt, but I’ll save the descriptions. I find it interesting that members of a repressed minority exhibited the intolerance they have fought against, if not personally then certainly collectively.

I also read with interest that a makeover and night-on-the-town service in the northwest said "The only places we don't go are gay and lesbian establishments. Though perfectly safe, those are the last places where we would blend in."

Really? If I went to a gay bar, would they point, snicker and make fun of my boobs?

I’ve never been out dressed, ever, so I don’t really know first hand how the world reacts, but I’m going to think long and hard before outing myself to a lesbian :heehee:

Thanks for all of your posts- great reading and lots of food for thought.

[Lorileah]

I also read with interest that a makeover and night-on-the-town service in the northwest said "The only places we don't go are gay and lesbian establishments. Though perfectly safe, those are the last places where we would blend in."



I want to see the results of their makeovers. They must work miracles. The chorus must sing. Even Hollywood can't pull off complete stealth. My imagination sees a bunch of Ruth Buzzi old woman on the bench characters for this place. I will buy this makeover if they can make me total blendable in a straight bar

[Jenniferathome]

There is no question that gay men and women are more accepted than cross dressers. The reason is time. Remember that homosexuals have been fighting the fight for decades. Not too long ago, homosexuality was a mental illness. Then it was a lifestyle choice (yeah, right), and now it is just what someone is. Well cross dressing is in the same boat but because we do not fight the fight, it will be in the closet, for decades and decades to come, I think.

So why don't we fight the fight, you might ask? Because we don't need to. Unlike homosexuals, we are allowed to marry, it is non-obvious in our jobs and in our lives tot he external world and most importantly, for the vast majority of cross dressers, it is a part time thing and we're ok with that.

[Badtranny]

Jim approached Katy, knowing that she was openly lesbian, and confided in her that he was a crossdresser and asked if she would help with some makeup tips or go shopping.

This is so obviously offensive that I'm almost surprised that it needs to be explained.

So, Katy is openly Lesbian which means she lives her life out loud and does not hide the fact that she has a same sex relationship. Perhaps she frequents the local gay bar and has friends there and she doesn't skulk around hiding from 'people at work'. Now Jim on the other hand is a secret CD who is probably straight and probably considers himself a lesbian (only based on what I see in this forum). So because Katy is brave enough to live her life openly, Jim thinks that she would be interested in his dirty little secret? What do you think these two people have in common exactly? Why would Katy want to go back in the closet for someone? What does that mean? Okay, suppose she DID go shopping or hang out with Jim when he was dressed up and they always have to go out of town or certain places were off limits because Jim is so closeted. Maybe they have a great time shopping, or maybe Katy finds a great pair of shoes in size 13 so she brings them in one day and Jim freaks out and tells her "not here!".

CD's want GG friends, but they have no idea how difficult it is to keep someone's secret. YOU don't have a problem keeping it under wraps because it's so personal but there is no way somebody else is going to be that discreet, especially a girl who gets used to hanging out with you when you're dressed and they actually consider you a friend. It's uncomfortable to be in a position where you have to lie to people. People that are out and proud do not want any more secrets.

I understand that Jim simply felt like Katy would be accepting of his lifestyle and she might very well be, (I'm sure she has flamboyant friends) but he really needed to establish a deeper friendship first. If he was unable to do that, then she's just not his people. From Katy's point of view, Jim's approach was not welcome because she felt like he was reducing her whole life to a single facet of her expression, as well as trying to burden her with HIS secret. Who would be receptive to that?

[RonniCD]

This is so obviously offensive that I'm almost surprised that it needs to be explained

Well, it's not obvious to me, even after reading the explanation several times. Perhaps I'm clueless, or I belong in the Slow Learner Category, but I don't get what Jim did that was SO offensive. Katy had many choices about how to handle it, and being outrageously offended and then retelling the story and outing poor ol' naive Jim wasn't the best one.

The take away lesson for me from all this discussion here and in a related thread about gay bars is a reinforcement of the idea that crossdressing is no more accepted by the gay/lesbian community than it is in the mainstream.


What do you think these two people have in common exactly?

Jim and Katy were friends, they worked together and traveled together on business. It certainly wasn’t a cold approach on the first day on the job in the lunchroom. There was a time that I might have thought that someone in the gay/lesbian community might have been more accepting because they have experienced “being different” in sexual and social terms and all that goes along with it and might have been empathetic to someone else dealing with an aspect of their sexuality. I’m taking a wild guess that Jim thought so too, and I am also guessing he was quite taken aback by Katy’s reaction.

But I am now the wiser for having been around the block once or twice, and also for reading these threads and others. Coming out has its risks and many threads have been devoted to that general topic. I’m totally out to the only person who really needs to know –my SO- and she is totally cool with it. I don’t have any plans to come out to anyone else –gay, straight, bi, whatever, and run the risk of offending them.

[busker]

Can the fact that we look different be a factor?

Yes, for a start. If crossdressing was just that--wearing clothes designed for women, i suspect that there would be more acceptance in general, but the extent of crossdresing to encompass "femulating" is where the problem lies. So few can pull it off, and so many want to wear styles that simply don't fit in in regular day to day goings on, and not to mention that if you are 6-3, weigh 250 and take a size 14 brogan, it is going to be too easy to disguise that frame. If I were 5 foot tall and wanted to be a quartetback for the Jets I doubt thatit would go. So I would need to do something else to express my desire to throw a football.
I suspect that if we spent time really BLENDING in by wearing womens clothing without all the make, wigs etc, we would eventually get more acceptance. After all, men wear tights in gymnastics, in cycling, in fencing, men wear pull-on pants for sports, shorts without zippers, boat-necked pullovers were popular in the 30's, fur coats were popular in the 20's and 30's, peg-legged pants were popular in the 50's (I had a pair) and would be called capris or matador pants today.
On and on and on.
Men wanting to look and dress JUST like a woman is never going to be accepted.Tolerance is about all that would be hoped for.

[Badtranny]

I don’t have any plans to come out to anyone else –gay, straight, bi, whatever, and run the risk of offending them.

Oh the drama! ;-)

Coming out wasn't the problem, she may very well have been very supportive of his lifestyle but that's not what he did. He asked her to be a shopping and make-up buddy. Please read my earlier post again because I don't know that I could explain the difference between an out lesbian and a closeted CD any better than that. If somebody were to come into my office and 'come out" to me as a gay man, I would be fully supportive and would try to keep their secret if they liked but if they then asked me to give them a tour of the Castro or to introduce them to some other gay guys, or to go with them to a drag show I would be pretty darn offended. His lifestyle is none of my business but to assume he has anything in common with me as a gay man is way off base. I am not a gay man, in fact I don't know the first thing about cruising the Castro. I have no problem with gay men, or the street culture but it ain't my bag baby, and I don't know a single fully transitioned MtF who wouldn't be offended at the implication.

People can come out to me as anything and I will support them, but they are crossing the line when they start to assume that I'm one of them just because I'm a trans woman. Jim crossed the line when he assumed Katy was like him just because she was a lesbian. Maybe he should have tried simply increasing the intimacy level of ther friendship first. A few weeks after coming out, a simple "hey, I'm heading out to the mall after work, to do some shopping, wanna come?" would have been a much better opening.

[Rogina B]

Crossdressers are gaining more & more acceptance, but gays/lesbians are way ahead and they have been working longer at gaining acceptance than the CD community.
I believe in using the term Transgenders,rather than crossdressers,when one speaks of acceptance. It is more than a casual thing to many of us so the word crossdresser doesn't really describe all of us well..Small point to some,but a big point to some of us...

[ArleneRaquel]

Rogina,
I agree. My phasing was incorrect.