Not accepted in gay bars

[johnboy23]

So I have a gay friend that knows about my cding and we have gone to a gay club the past two weekends. Last night was horrible because he was telling me that every time I wasn't around people were asking him about me because I don't wear wigs and make up. He basically said in order for me to be more accepted and get friends I have to be one or the other. He said that everyone felt like I was holding back from being what I truely wanted. Which is true because I have tried being fully woman once in high school and I didn't feel comfortable so I just never tried it again. Whatdo y'all think about that?

[sami1952]

i've been to gay bars before fully dress and the experince was more then i expected. i even had men looking up my dress, how do i know that?heard them talking to one another.i wouldn't feel comfortable not being fully dress in a club.To me that's the whole purpose,trying to pass and fit in.I think maybe you should try again,who knows you might like this go round.good luck

[Kate Simmons]

If you want to be yourself, you will be regardless of what others say or think. That is what I think Hon.:)

[Ceri Anne]

Kate hit the nail on the head. Be yourself always. If its not you to wear a wig and makup, then don't. But also if you had a bad experience once, and that is what is keeping you from dressing fully again, then go get a nice makover, a decent wig and some guidence and hit the bars in full style. Look at local independent beauty supply places for decent wigs at good prices (around 30-40).

[Lynn Marie]

Kate is absolutely correct. The only trouble is that even though you're correct, the perception you are giving others is one of confusion. People don't know how to address you so they will avoid you. Don't expect to be treated as a lady unless you're willing to present as one. I guess that goes for presenting as a man too! Take your que from the the Drag Queens. They know how to present. The only problem they have is that they often present too well!

[flatlander_48]

So I have a gay friend that knows about my cding and we have gone to a gay club the past two weekends. Last night was horrible because he was telling me that every time I wasn't around people were asking him about me because I don't wear wigs and make up. He basically said in order for me to be more accepted and get friends I have to be one or the other. He said that everyone felt like I was holding back from being what I truely wanted. Which is true because I have tried being fully woman once in high school and I didn't feel comfortable so I just never tried it again. Whatdo y'all think about that?

And that, my friend, is exactly what needs to be sorted out...

[Lorileah]

Really? You need a new place to go. Other than a gay bar that is themed (i e bears, leather, drag) I have never seen or heard anyone ever NOT accept someone who walked in. You must be going to a DIVA bar where everyone is the "perfect" gay

[Rachelakld]

This week, at my local library, a person with a 6 foot 3 athletic body that would match most footballers on the feild, also had a camisole and breasts. I wanted to chat to them but I was unsure how to start - Miss, Sir etc. While I was totally confused and scared of accidently offending them, I notice they were in their own zone and having a normal day.

[Rachel Morley]

... the perception you are giving others is one of confusion. People don't know how to address you so they will avoid you. Don't expect to be treated as a lady unless you're willing to present as one. I guess that goes for presenting as a man too!


This week, at my local library, a person with a 6 foot 3 athletic body that would match most footballers on the field, also had a camisole and breasts. I wanted to chat to them but I was unsure how to start - Miss, Sir etc. While I was totally confused and scared of accidentally offending them, I notice they were in their own zone and having a normal day.

IMHO I think there is some merit in these quotes. People like to know where they are with people, it gets them confused if you dress somewhere in the middle .... gay bar or not. Having said that, in my own personally experience, (at least at the gays bars I've been in) the folks there are some of the nicest and least judgmental people I have ever met in my life.

[GeminaRenee]

Really? You need a new place to go. Other than a gay bar that is themed (i e bears, leather, drag) I have never seen or heard anyone ever NOT accept someone who walked in. You must be going to a DIVA bar where everyone is the "perfect" gay

My first time out, I encountered some resistance at a gay bar in Saginaw, MI - and this was on a night with a drag show. I was not comfortable using the ladies room, despite my presentation, so I used the mens. There, I experienced a strange level of vitriol from two guys who were having a handy with each other in front of a urinal, mocking me for using the wrong room, my presentation, and not being a 'real man.' After what was otherwise a great evening, I found it incredibly jarring. The whole experience really shattered my (probably naive) preconception of acceptance in that setting. It didn't put me off of going out, or going out to gay bars. But it did make me realize that I could just as easily encounter prejudice and opposition in settings where I wouldn't have expected it.

[Lorileah]

There, I experienced a strange level of vitriol from two guys who were having a handy with each other in front of a urinal, mocking me for using the wrong room, my presentation, and not being a 'real man.'

This from two men who were not only breaking the law but going against what I am sure was club rules? Horror! Did you expect them to shake your hand?

Gays are no different than real people. 10% are where we give enemas.

[flatlander_48]

This week, at my local library, a person with a 6 foot 3 athletic body that would match most footballers on the feild, also had a camisole and breasts. I wanted to chat to them but I was unsure how to start - Miss, Sir etc. While I was totally confused and scared of accidently offending them, I notice they were in their own zone and having a normal day.

Then don't. Do something like:

"Excuse me. Hi, how're you doing?"

Don't use nouns until you understand what the situation is. Actually, wouldn't the phrase be: How're you going? Been a while since I've been down under...

[Melissa Rose]

Some of the snarkiest and sarcastic comments I have heard about cross dressers have come from gay men. It is often when they think the target of their comment or their friends cannot hear. Cross dressers can be unwelcome in some lesbian bars since they are viewed as still being men. Somewhere the myth has been created that every LGBT person is completely accepting of all others. The vast majority are accepting and understanding, or, at a minimum, tolerant, but not all. Bias, intolerance, ignorance and hate comes in all forms, shapes and sizes. When someone does not fit into the one of the various categories or labels within the LGBT community, a similar form of confusion or derision may occur as often encountered in the "mainstream" community. For a small minority, it becomes an excuse or reason to reject or distance oneself from.

[noeleena]

HI,

How you are percived, this is a ? i have no answer for in any gay bar we dont have any here where i live, so id have to go to one if its still going some distance away, a few years ago i did go to one in christchurch 2 1/2 hours away, at the time there were only women there & only some time later were men allowed in, over 130 women the men about 15 come up .i met a few women & talked with about 5,

I know many lesbain women wont accept those of us who are intersex thats the hard liner's, so i dont bother going any more, as to the mens gay bars, well how would i be treated, unless i know the men i dought they would wont me to be there any way, so again i wont be going,

That does not say i or we dont have gay friends we do, just i see no point being with those i dont know, they are there for one porpose well maybe two reasons drink & ...other....

this in many ways says it all. we have very different lives no interests that i would have in common im very involved with our women with in our womens groups,

As an interesting point or two i dont wear my wig's only for our Edwardian group other wise, no way, i dont wear makeup, im not a feminine looking woman yet im female , a female with out the female look.& there are a few of us women like that,

for me clothes are not what im about regardless of what i wear it has no bearing on who i am as a person. being a woman ill wear what i like im not forced into a set standard of a dress code, so clothes dont make the person. im noeleena regardless what the hell i wear,

okay ill conceade you dresser's have to do it differently, clothes & makeup, other wise, as youd say youd not pass as a woman,
so to be accepted you have to be one or the other, okay how does that fit me im both, intersexed where does that leave me ,

You see it comes down to being accepted for who you are, not what you wear so it seems to me its about clothes, or this is really about being open for ....other...& is this about they would rather you were gay & be accepted on that base'es ,

Wearing womens clothes does not change your core you or your mnd or hormones & what makes a female a female & this is from birth is what i mean. you can act a part,

to live being a woman is very different, & you take ownership of yourself for who you are, only you can do that, say what you really are, male or woman,

...noeleena...

[Beverley Sims]

You do have to present as one or the other none of this half way idea.
It does not work, they want to be able to talk to someone who is not a weirdo.

[Badtranny]

SOOOO much of acceptance is dependent on the atmosphere YOU create.

Most gay guys (please don't argue with me on this, I was one of them for many years) don't get the cross dressing, and they sure as hell don't get the straight guy cross-dressing. Most of them will be snarky or dismissive when they see you or talk about you, but they will at the very least be polite when addressed which will give you a chance to redeem yourself. How do you redeem yourself? By being confident, friendly, and fun. Most gay guys no matter how THEY present (fem, butch, leather, daddy, etc) will always respect confident expression of who you are. It doesn't matter if they're into it or not, they will respect and even encourage your 'thing' as long as you own it and don't try to project your insecurities onto them.

Somewhere in the bar that night, there was a 24 year old queer who was presenting more authentically feminine than you could ever hope to be, while dressed like a dude, maybe even with a goatee. Him and his friends were calling each other 'she' and 'bitch' and not a single eyebrow was raised by anyone. ....and then there was you, nervous, pensive, trying to act like a girl (or a dude?) not exactly the life of the party. They weren't being rude to you because of what you were wearing, they were simply reacting to your vibe. They were being rude (bless their hearts) because of the way you were acting. If you want to wear women's clothes and have a man head, then OWN it. Don't act like you're being punished for something.

CD's have a very difficult time with this and they really need to figure it out. Even at CD specific events like Sparkle, most of the girls that I've met were palpably apprehensive. Like any moment their bowling team could bust through the doors laughing. People feel this tension from you. Nervous people make other people nervous, get over yourselves and learn to have a good time and you will be shocked at how much more accepting the world (and gay bars) become.

[johnboy23]

You all have great advice. Bad tranny I was very confident with myself and my friend until he was telling me that one of his friends told him to not being me around anymore. However and whatever I did, I'm going to try again to be fully feminine. Thank you everyone. :)

[Asche]

There are two different issues here.

First, people dumping on you for presenting in a way that they see as neither clearly male nor clearly female (the you "have to be one or the other" crap.)

This is just plain bigotry. Ironically, it's the same kind of bigotry that says that gays are sick and perverted. (Unfortunately, you'll find bigots of the same stripe here at CD.com.) Deal with it as you wish, but my reaction would be to go somewhere else. Why should I waste even one minute of the rest of my life hanging out with rude bigots who only want to put me down?

Second: how you want to present.

I'm not sure from what the OP wrote exactly what he really feels. To quote the OP:

He said that everyone [at the bar] felt like I was holding back from being what I truely wanted. Which is true because I have tried being fully woman once in high school and I didn't feel comfortable so I just never tried it again.
Just for the record: a bunch of bigots at a bar saying something doesn't make it true. Only you can know what you "truely want."

You don't say why you didn't feel comfortable the one time you "tried being fully woman." "I didn't feel comfortable" says to me that "being fully woman" may not be what you want, but I'm not inside your head -- and neither is anyone else at CD.com.

For most of us, finding out what we "truly want" is a long process of self-examination and experimentation.

Not to mention learning to tell those people who think they already know what we want to go [expletive deleted] off.

[LauraLane]

I was thinking up something grand to say against those fools at the bar but Asche beat me too it. Don't listen to strangers, stay true to who you are.

[GeminaRenee]

This from two men who were not only breaking the law but going against what I am sure was club rules? Horror! Did you expect them to shake your hand?

Gays are no different than real people. 10% are where we give enemas.

I was just young & naive in those days. Now I'm older, a little more jaded, and I don't have syphilis. I'd imagine those gentlemen can only claim 2/3 of those attributes.

[xcdmargo]

I've been to gay bars and had a blast and to some that absolutely sucked. I think you have to really know the club/bar you're going to. There's a lot of gay guys that plain do not like girls like us. I've found the vast majority do but hey if it's Bear night it might be a good place to skip that night.
I agree with others too who said be who you are.
If I'm in a new city I usually go and check places out in guy mode and I've also called clubs and asked if I would be comfortable there and most are very honest and appreciate the call.
I love going out but I want it to be fun for everyone

margo

[Amanda22]

I think the people who have a problem with your appearance should stop judging.

[docrobbysherry]

This can be a very complicated and upsetting issue, John.

If you want to be yourself, you will be regardless of what others say or think. That is what I think Hon.:)
While that's true in most cases, Kate. What if the REAL U scares the crap out of most folks? For instance, I prefer to dress sexy and erotically. And, to be Sherry I need to wear a mask. These r NOT things that r acceptable in public. Not even with other dressers or gays.

So, John, when I go out dressed, I usually put on conservative, granny like things and leave Sherry at home. And, I feel like a spy, an imposter! But, I'm also able to mix comfortably with other dressers and even some vanillas. The alternative is being ME and to spend the nite freaking everyone out!

So, the answer as not always "be who u r". But, to find a balance with what the public expects to see when u go out. The other alternative is, simply don't dress and go out!

[mikiSJ]

Gender politics - there will never be a solution or a winner.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have had the same experience Melissa describes. At gay places, the gay folks tend to ignore me; they are not rude but they just don't know what to make of a heterosexual TV. I am not a DQ or a performer, I am not interested in men, it is just something foreign to them.

[ArleneRaquel]

I haven't been to a gay bar in years, but while I was not embraced(lol) I was not rejected either. As far as I remember I was always with another CD'er who was also enfemme.

[Nicole Lee]

that's messed up.

keep doing what you do, johnboy! i like your whole "mixed" look... still a guy on the outside, but with good-blending of female attire. i too don't have a wig or even know how to do makeup, it's all about the clothes for me right now also and blending it just right.

love all the pictures you have! hope you share more, btw! ;)

[Vicky_Scot]

Accepted - NO Tolerated - YES