Why so mean?

[Frédérique]

Or, if you prefer, why so miserable? :idontknow:


Anybody that reads this section have seen members asking "Am I TS?" In the old days the question would be met mostly with "tough love" bordering on cruelty from some members. Those asking mostly ended up leaving with their tails between their legs or being peeved off. Of course depending on what they asked or their background it could be easy to tell they were not TS.

I’m curious about this quote from Marleena’s thread. Why would people who frequent this section, established (or transitioning) transsexuals I assume, be harsh to inquisitive newbies? It’s none of my business, of course, but the statement above speaks volumes about that underlying nausea I get whenever I dare to voice an opinion about something that MAY border on the TG/TS order of things...

Speaking as a crossdresser, and nothing more, I can say that this “tough love” or alleged cruelty from other members can be clearly detected between the submitted lines on many occasions. I don’t often look into this section because I know I’m not welcome – I’ve had numerous run-ins with those who either don’t share my enthusiasm for dressing against my birth gender, or feeling pleasure from something that others MUST do, according to their transsexuality. Things are difficult enough, so why make things worse, right?

But, as usual, there are no clear-cut answers. Some are engaged in a lifelong quest for truth, in regards to their gender, so they may come here to ask questions. In this context, “Am I a transsexual” seems like a fairly innocuous, if not reasonable, plea for clarity, and, as Marleena states, it may be easy to ascertain the answer without further recourse, but why make the effort to anger, injure, or further confuse the person? You may very well feel the need to nip something in the bud, and this may qualify as some sort of necessary “support,” albeit cruel and tough, so you do the deed?

I’m trying not to feel that TS individuals are overtly defensive, but, if I were a TS I might be VERY defensive and exclusionist, raining down my scorn on anyone who dared ask about something they should already know. I once read a post where someone declared that knowing you’re homosexual isn’t easy, or clear cut, so why would the notion of being transsexual be any less nebulous? It crossed my mind, I can assure you. Since some learned professionals, let’s call them gender therapists, don’t harbor over-abundant feelings of sympathy towards transsexuals, where else can you turn? If you can answer your own questions, why have a discussion forum in the first place?

I’m glad to hear that things around here have changed, but why were people so mean to begin with? :straightface:

[Jodi Anne]

Not to give an excuse, but could it be the stress some feel in their transition? I happen to enjoy every day of my transition it is the greatest relief I have found.

[Kathryn Martin]

Hi Freddy,

I t is wonderful to see you stopping by in this part of the site universe. And just to make my standpoint on this clear, you are always welcome to visit.

I think the challenge is always when someone asks the question "am I transsexual" and lays out some background which is a little bit "how Edna thinks a transsexual is". Confusion and fog are part of the journey for sure, but there are some clear criteria that are part of everyone's struggle that would make it likely that you suffer from this condition. So sometimes, some of us find it strange when someone who asks that question has not even bothered to inform themselves about it. That however is not tough love.

Tough love comes into play when thoughts begin to turn to transition after spending 3 months on this site, of which two were spent frolicking in the pictures and video section and the beauty forum. Not that there is anything wrong with that but to transition means much more than getting the femme on 24/7. The tough love is not so much defensive but rather an attempt to get some realism into such a sudden and fantastic quest. Often times people will run away from this forum and say I will not go there again because they are mean, cruel and exclusionist. We then feel that if that caused you upset, how are you going to face transition and everything that is connected with it.

There is much very real and fairly involved and deep conversation on this board about what it means to travel down that road, sometimes not so obvious sometimes very obvious.

I hope you stop by more often and if you get nauseous I'll make you some lovely ginger tea.

Kathryn

[Marleena]

Hi Freddy! Kathryn's reply was spot on and saved me a lot of typing.:)

I'm happy to report that that particular discussion went quite well with both approaches complimenting each other. A lot has changed during the past year too and cooler heads prevail.

[kimdl93]

Its so easy to fall into the trap of being harsh and judgmental...I am as susceptible as anyone. There are times when I my gut reaction is to say something potentially sarcastic and spiteful. But I do make an effort to temper my comments with a measure of compassion and consideration.

[stefan37]

I always enjoy reading your post Freddy as you are a gifted writer. I have lurked around this site for many years I would say since 06 never having the courage to join or admit to myself I was a crossdresser. I finally did find the courage to join as a member and again I never felt the duality of a persona as I always did and still do think of me as me. I even joined under a very gender nuetral name and let's face it who wants to admit to them selves they are a cd let alone suffer from transsexualism. It was from the cold reality voiced from members here that allowed me to see just how difficult it is to effect a gender change. Many comments made about the perils and the naivety of our thoughts have eerily come true and I expect many more will come down the road.
I can respect when I am told where I might be making a mistake or when I make a right decision. As long as the advice is given without personally attacking me in a denigrating or derogatory manner, I can parse through the opinions and then make my own decision. Did i always make the right one, Of course I don't but i take responsibility for the decision I make along with any consequences that arise from such. I think maybe those that have made the tough choice to transition and are living that tend to have little tolerance for those deep in the fog that fantasize what it would be like to be a different gender. To read post after post from those on the fence facing the hard choice but unable to make one to change their life in anyway. Transition is not for everyone, but GD affects many that post here and we are so invested in our lives, both personal and professionally that to change could or will upset the balance and security that is so ingrained in human nature. But they are suffering and just making 1 change could have a huge impact on mitigating their GD , but again security and stability prevent that, and they suffer and will continue to suffer. Some members for whatever reason come to this forum and whatever their agenda troll and espouse comments that show an insensitivity that does not belong in a forum as this dealing with the difficult decision of transitioning, just as the very act of disclosure of cd'ing to a SO could mean the end of that relationship or an altering of it without the ability to repair the damage. I for one will always welcome you to post in this section as I find your writings to be very insightful and sensitive.

[STACY B]

That's strange to me ,,I have felt that being trans is way easier that crossdressing ,, An I like to tell an get it out the way . But maybe that is just me ?
Might be a tough road to tow ,,But its better than some I have been down !!

[Beth-Lock]

I think sites like this should be open to those of both views, those emphasizing the role of choice in gender transition, and those emphasizing the role of circumstances over-determining it in a way that is fruitless to fight, for likely either the one or the other, is their personal reality.

If what started out as a discussion or debate seems to challenge the authenticity of someone's personal reality, then they are fighting words. Let us not see them as fighting words, ever, but just opinions and hypotheses from someone with quite different experiences wishing to think about them out loud, to discuss them and perhaps even, to engage in a dialogue, to connect them harmoniously with different views and even, in a utopian world, those holding them.

[Angela Campbell]

I have wondered the same thing myself. I cannot say I am for sure a transexual because it seems there is no real consensus of what one is.I thought it was something you are born with and some think it is something you are because of an action you take. If it is only one who is undergoing transition with HRT and eventually SRS then I am not, but if it is someone who is a woman on the inside and desperately wants to be one then I am. I know I do not really fit in with most of the CD's who dress this way for completely different reasons than I, but I do not seem to fit in with those who are farther along the TG path than I am either. (it seems)

That said I have received both good and bad experiences in this side of the forum, and have read some very good advice. But I do not really fit in here either.

[melissaK]

I have never understood the politics of this place. Still don't. Don't try to.

Dig around - I started on the CD side. Then I found a friendly ear with Captain Lex and the dancing ladies for awhile. I hung out with two spirited middle of the roaders like Shy Scottie for awhile. I've posted dumb things I've apologized for. I've said some smart things I've been praised for. I'm far from the most popular girl here, but no ones asked me to leave either.

And here I am, after a half dozen years, still here. But I have changed and grown a lot. I am actively pursuing transition.

At the risk of quoting the Rolling Stones, site politics or not, this place hasn't always given me all that i want, but it certainly has let me get what information and support I have have needed.

[LeaP]

Simple answer, Freddy - I don't see it as described.

There is almost an inverse relationship in play. The less likely you are to be TS, the more you take offense, and vice-versa. Call it tough love, bluntness, honesty or whatever you want, but when you need it and SEEK it, it goes down like pure water to the desert traveler.

I've been told point blank that I was indulgent, short-sighted, foolish, too trusting, foolish, self-centered, irresponsible, etc. At various times people have said I needed a slap, kick in the ass, etc. A few I found charming. Some were grating ... until I realized they were right. I've been told a few times directly that my input was ignorant and irrelevant, that I didn't have any idea what I was talking about. These were correct also.

This is a path that absolutely destroys logic and self understanding as discovery and acceptance burns its way through you like a wildfire. And then it turns to Sherman's March through your life after THAT. There's just no room for speculation or BS. My life isn't a theoretical disaster right now - it's an actual, honest to God train wreck in progress since I've started HRT and actively consider transition.

Mean? These girls are life savers. You have no idea how important some of the conversations and relationships here are to me. Kathryn understates it.

[KellyJameson]

I met a man once who claimed he was God and he was very calm and very rational until the police took him away.

Mental illness created by sexual abuse or gender specific trauma in early childhood can create the circumstances where a person rejects their gender identity so it is not that they identify as female or male but must flee themselves as vessels of hate.

Men and woman can hate their genitals from being sexually abused as children so adopting the opposite gender identity to escape what was done to them that formed them. Violence against children can create "gender dysphoria" that has nothing to do with identity

It is a type of body dysmorphic disorder driven by trauma experienced as self hate, self rejection, self loathing,ect..

There is a post-op who has had sex with one thousand men since transitioning. Does having sex with one thousand people sound normal ? This person is trying to fix self hate by being used sexually just has many prostitutes do who were raped as children.

They transitioned to become a prostitute to get "love" through sex to overcome self hate by using the same vehicle that condemned them to self hate so they keep repeating the crime to "normalize it"

Mental illness is a driver behind many who transition and this threatens the whole system established for those who truly do and always have identified as female.

Just about anybody can transition if they are willing to work the system and the ones most mentally unbalanced are the ones often given the most credibility because it is the "GD" making them this way.

This is simply B.S. When it comes to being transsexual there is "identity" and than there is everything else.

Usually it is the everything else that is driving the business of transitioning and it can actually make it harder on the person who really does identify has female or male because they are not in the "everything else" category so doubt their own minds.

There are two types of transsexuals.

Those who are born and those who are made by trauma and it really is easy to tell the difference when you compare them side by side.

Trauma always has a shrill voice because the pain is completely different than GD.

Trauma induced mental illness makes people unstable and aggressive and you met them constantly in the LGBT world because much of the LGBT world has been created by childhood trauma.

This is the Elephant in the room no one talks about.

If you want to know the truth, ignore the words and listen to the emotion because emotions expose the lie.

I have learned that very little is as it seems to be in this world.

[Ann Louise]

There is a great deal of thinking and articulate expression that goes down on this board, but my innate shyness is a natural inhibitor to joining in wholeheartedly, publicly, at least for now. And I'm in way too emotional a state swinging my hormonal balance m2f at this time to engage in point-counterpoint psychological debates, anyway. Why would I? This is difficult enough without inviting public criticism, and I'm trying to cope with wide-swinging emotions, fear, and confusion.

But IMHO I don't interpret the occasional sharp posts here as "mean" so much as acerbic, the sharpness derived from what is for some of us a genuine life and death struggle to find and live our lives as our true selves under much less than optimal conditions, and with limited time to do so. The private messages that I exchange with those here who are becoming my dear friends are why I keep coming back. Not the publicly posted back-and-forth that is very often helpful, but sometimes emotionally hurtful.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I just don't understand it...the strawmen is once again brought up from the depths...
stirring up the pot is all this is.. dont fall for it..

note the word miserable..

the OP is cleverly constructed ...if i state oh no you don't!! i'm defensive...if i'm silent i acquiesce to being called mean.....in either case i'm miserable...if he says so

you guys can play this OP's trivial and silly games...have at it..

[Jessinthesprings]

If I may. I think it just depends. For so long we are attacked for this and that so we become inherently defensive to outsiders. I read a wonderful op-ed by a gay man about how he and many others like hem would treat trans members of the LBGT community poorly. We cannot even get a break from the larger part of our out so called community. A "if you are not with us you are against us" type of attitude is built out of this onslaught. Then you have those who have compleated their transition in some for or another and to them they may have forgotten that moment when they thought, "Is this real?" After all after all the battles they had to fight to get through here is a simple question are you or are you not. It probably seems very obviouse in retrospect.

[Aprilrain]

I'm not miserable or mean but nor do i suffer much bullshit which is essentially what this thread is.

[kellycan27]

This aint no party ... This aint no disco ... This ain't no foolin around.... No time for dancin... or lovey dovey... I ain't got time for that nowwww

[Barbara Ella]

Tough decisions are made by the individuals who post here. I am new, learning about myself, and insecure so i shy away from confrontational discourse usually, and really don't have enough experience to comment. I think in the wide set of emotional states i find myself participating in, that simple comments can be interpreted inappropriately at times. I do not find them mean, i just find them leaving me unable to participate, which can be frustrating, but then what about the issue of TS is not frustrating as you try to figure it out, and make decisions that will change your life.

Barbara

[ReineD]

I was going to say what Kathryn said in #2, and Leah said in #11, but they beat me to it. :)

And Kelly's point too:



There are two types of transsexuals.

Those who are born and those who are made by trauma and it really is easy to tell the difference when you compare them side by side.

An important third, are those who develop sexual fetishes. This is a rather powerful motivator and it's power of persuasion cannot be underestimated, even after the sexual act has given way to euphoric feelings.

[Beverley Sims]

There is an eclectic mix of people here with different and very definite views.
From what I have seen Frédérique, they do not mix well.
They are not likely to either because each has their own agenda and in a lot of cases it has been a cruel trip.
Some are completely focused on what they are doing and when they can see the light at the end of the tunnel that is the beginning of the rest of their life.

[Tamara Croft]

I'm glad to hear that things around here have changed, but why were people so mean to begin with? :straightface: Mean? I don't think they are mean, short tempered sometimes, but not mean, maybe misunderstood, but mean? bit harsh don't you think? Maybe you should walk a mile in their shoes before making such broad statements, their lives are full of turmoil, heartache, stress, depression, suicidal, financial worries, family loss etc... Good God, a CD has a hissy fit because they can't dress for the day :rolleyes: a TS female or male can have the life of hell... and you think they're mean... :Pfft:

[Marleena]

This is unfortunate. I had no agendas posting my thread now in question and it ended up being a great discussion.

[Aprilrain]

This has nothing to do with you Marleena, this has everything to do with a CD deciding to come in here and stir up trouble for no reason. A CD that in all my years of being here I've never seen post in this section before (so why now??) I'm beginning to think that there is a pool of CDs who's job consist of coming to the TS section and making inflammatory remarks so they can then call us (TSes) a bunch of bitches and feel justified in doing so.

BTW im not feeling mean or miserable or even angry, like i said before I just think this sort of BS needs to be recognized for what it is and nipped in the bud.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i am so happy people see this for what it is...

Thankfully i think its a small group april
...its the flip side of a small group of ts women over the years that have made very negative inflammatory statements

its the nature of message boards..
...both groups take up a disproportianate amount of time relative to the low value of the discussions....but they must be addressed ...especially in this forum... because many people that post here are so vulnerable...

[JessicaM1985]

I dunno April, that sounds a bit harsh in itself. There's no rule that says CDs can't post in TS threads (outside of the private ones of course) so I won't really question why OP is posting in here as the mods and admin deem that she is free to do so. The catch? We're just as free to call her on b.s. if that's what she posts. ;)

I think she raised a legitimate question though. The tone when I was here last was very much more hostile than what I see it as being now. (which is why I'm still posting. I really thank you guys for that too. :) )
Whether or not it was intended, the way things came off as that this board pretty much boiled down to TS vs. TG vs TV/CD. It seemed like a culture war within a culture war and people were tearing each other apart due to a difference in ideas. This was a contributing factor to why I "ran with my tail tucked behind". It gave off a very negative impression of what was supposed to be a support forum. Except I didn't see much support, but plenty of textual cat fights. The assumption that a CD is "here to stir up trouble" is just as negative and unhelpful as the assumption that all the women in the TS section are bitches or "mean". We're not. We're human, and like any human being we have our up and down days. We have our moments of impatience and moments when tempers run very short. We also have have our moments where, in my case, I stumble willy-nilly into the TS forum with dumb questions and assumptions about gender identity that I should probably have worked out a bit on my own and not left it to strangers to do the footwork of my transition for me. ( so no, I don't assume innocence because in reflection, I very much deserved some of the flak that I got. ;) )

I only bring these things of the past up in an attempt to address the question that is in this thread and in Marlene's (it is my hope to just let the past stay buried and move on with everything as water under the bridge). It boils down to this: there were a few unsavory individuals that had a propensity, almost a life-calling if you will, to purposefully stir the bucket and cause problems with others who post here. They may have had truth in some of the things they said, but as I've said, using truth as a means to bludgeon people over the head is simply unjustifiable. From my understanding, they are now gone and already I can see vast improvements. I will say to OP that I can see where April is coming from given that there are a couple people from the CD section that wander through here and start spewing really dumb stuff that makes the rest of us bury our faces in our palms *cough* busker *cough*, and it's those people that may have some of us on edge and suspicious.

[Beverley Sims]

I am sorry ladies to see this developing into a cat fight.

The following line was incorrectly worded as it assumes I had collaborated with Frédérique. This is not the case
Frédérique, and I really do not appreciate what goes on in some minds that are transitioning or have extreme views.

This is what I meant to say.
I agree with Frédérique in so much as some who have extreme views do seem aggressive or overly defensive.

If you wish to talk about us you can go to the private forum that has been established for you.
I think this was long overdue and is a good idea.
If somebody "some CDer" like myself makes a statement about meanness and other traits that occur because we do not understand you it is better to say so nicely than be "mean" as Frédérique has probably rightly suggested.
I have said in the past that my life was pure hell for a short time consoling a couple of people transitioning.
They were moody and could be downright nasty to me mainly because I was spineless and did not continue with the hormones.
We were all about 20 and ripe for transformation. They were very successful and I chickened out.
So I do see how some of you can feel and the hard road you have probably trod.
I get a great insight today from posts by Kelly Jamieson and others who take time to explain what is going on.
I don't see what Marleena is being blamed about, maybe some hidden meaning there.
I realize as a X dresser I am only a second class citizen in a world of transsexual and gay people.
The perception here is I can switch genders and enjoy my playtime where the other two groups are playing hard ball.
After this tirade I may not be allowed back here again, but I would ask that you consider that the poor old/young X dresser is only trying to find out what gives in the whole scheme of things.
I cant lie straight in bed, and I usually live on a bit of levity as well

I will go now.

[Beth-Lock]

I think Frederique is one of the most quietly thoughtful people posting on this site, and the contribution of her reflections does add a bit of class to any section she chooses to post in.


There are people who come here with real life or death problems who need to know they are not alone, that there is someone else on the planet who feels the way they feel who has done the things they have done, who has taken a chance and, frankly, beaten the odds. IF you're TS and IF you're ready to do something about it this a great place to meet others like yourself.

That's the biggest reason why it is important to remain civil and keep this site a friendly place.

[Aprilrain]

All are welcome to post, thats not the point nor am i or is anyone else suggesting that CDs shouldn't be allowed to post in the TS section. There are several CDs who post here regularly and manage to do so without unnecessarily stirring the pot. They are supportive and seem to have a good handle on the TS experience and allow that our, CDs and TSes, experiences are different.

I've been here for a while now and remember well some of the more colorful personalities we've had here. My own personal experience involved getting my cyber A$$ handed to me for asking about internet hormones. I stuck around, I've done a lot of the real, hard, emotional work involved in aligning body and mind. I know I have useful life experience to share. People can take it or leave it its no skin off my back either way, though i prefer to see success stories.

There are people who come here with real life or death problems who need to know they are not alone, that there is someone else on the planet who feels the way they feel who has done the things they have done, who has taken a chance and, frankly, beaten the odds. IF you're TS and IF you're ready to do something about it this a great place to meet others like yourself. This is why I personally take a no nonsense approach

[Jessinthesprings]

I honestly thought the OP was asking a legitimate question. Perhaps I am naive enough to trust anyone and everyone until proven otherwise. But, I detected no hidden agenda. That being said; it does raise a very good question. Why the hostility? The fact that there is now, not one, but two posts concerning this (weather legit or not) I find a bit disturbing. And, there has been some hostile posts. Again I will concede that perhaps it has been well deserved.

[LeaP]

...
I realize as a X dresser I am only a second class citizen in a world of transexual and gay people.
The perception here is I can switch genders and enjoy my playtime where the other two groups are playing hard ball.


This says as much about what you think of yourself as what others supposedly think of you.

Here's the truth (from my perspective) - I don't care! Whatever you are is FINE - TS, TG, CD, whatever. I don't think in terms of caste. In fact, I detest that view of life.

As for the details above, I have exactly no idea whether you view dressing as "playtime" or if you "switch genders." as far as I know, you have never said.

As for hard ball on the TS end of things - Yup. What is or is not difficult in the CD/TG world is a separate issue.

[arbon]

I guess I don't really see all this hostility anymore...I think this place has really softened up from a couple years ago. Or maybe its just my perspective that has change and I'm not as sensitive as I used to be. I have said some stupid things, been defensive, been argumentative in the past. I was in the shit and on edge, working my way through the mess I was in. I think TS's are prone to getting into that negative space.

[emma5410]

If you walked up to a group of strangers and asked them why they are so mean or miserable would you be surprised if you got a less than stellar reception. It does seem to be a common thing where a CD makes a provocative post and then gets all self righteous (or someone else does on their behalf) and portrays themselves as being picked on. Apparently the CD is an innocent paragon of virtue being attacked by a group of mean miserable TS bullies.

[LeaP]

And your proof of this moody, bad behavior is what? That it sounds like it might be a good explanation?

[edit - adding more]

By the way, a few well-known individuals do not a forum make, either. I could cite dozens of people in the CD forum who are variously grumpy, short-fused, angry, accusative, sensitive, provocative, mean, etc. I'm not sure why the TS forum gets called out for this when the other does not - even though I personally see more of it in at least two of the other forums.

Honestly, one of these days I should collate a bunch of examples and post a thread in one of the other forums asking about it. You know - to be helpful and solicitous. Except that would be MEAN, wouldn't it???

[Beverley Sims]

Lea,
I used the term, playtime and switching genders to illustrate that I had no commitment to either gender.
Unlike those transitioning.
They are committed and focused on what they are doing.
I am able to take a back step.
It is apparent you read some of my posts, for this I say thank you.
I do not switch gender I feel I am male all the time. When interacting with women at a party I can conduct a group conversation quite successfully and social interaction is easy and enjoyable.
I do prefer women's company.
I only present as male to go to work these days.
I enjoy continuity of employment.
My view as a second class citizen is I do not need to have a commitment and this does wrankle some.

Beth, as for chickening out, I had no commitments at the time, I met and married my wife later.
I am pleased to say we are still happily married.

[LeaP]

Paula, You haven't offended, you added to the meme unnecessarily by posing a strawman. That you were well-intended doesn't matter as to the effect.

Beverly, If you have actually used the word "playtime," I hardly know what to say. It does suggest the relevance of your contributions in a TS context might be questionable. Perhaps you meant it as a point of contrast more than anything else, but I'm sure you can see how such language would set the scene for conflict when you are speaking to a group engaged in something so fundamental.

[Rianna Humble]

I am sorry ladies to see this developing into a cat fight.
Frédérique, and I really do not appreciate what goes on in some minds that are transitioning

No, the OP has made that very plain when he said that we nauseate him. I have left it thus far to see if the troll-post could be turned into a useful discussion thread. The jury is still out on that.


After this tirade I may not be allowed back here again,

I'm definitely going to call you out on this troll. You have been very well received by the TS members who tend to frequent a forum which is after all about transsexual issues. So far, you have not broken any rule that would cause you to be banned from the forum, but it is extremely discourteous to suggest that those big bad TS's who have been so polite to you are going to somehow gang up on you to refuse you posting rights in the Transsexual Forum.

[Beverley Sims]

Lea,
Playtime was used in line #20 of post #26.
You can read it in it's context there.
I don't think we need to dwell on this as there is a more serious subject here and that is support for those going through hard times and enlightening other by explanation.
I personally do not have time or the inclination "to set the scene for conflict" when there is a better level of discussion to be had.
We are probably wandering off topic anyway.
I only wanted to throw water on the argument that was developing.
Maybe I added fuel to the fire.


Rianna and I have cross posted, so I will apologize as I was being tongue in cheek about what may happen.
I did not see nauseate in there, I will have to improve my proof reading skills.
It may have made my posts quite different.
I am not into bun fights and I would have been disappointed if something like that ever happened.
ie. ganging up on me.

[PaulaQ]

I think the OP is off base here. I'm sorry I said that poorly before.

[Kate Simmons]

One thing I know for sure is that regardless of if we transition or not, once we really get to know ourselves, we never have to apologize for being who we are. Granted, some have difficulties and some do not but as long as we are open and honest with both ourselves and others, we can never go wrong.:)

[Frédérique]

Another day, another useless attempt at discussion...:sigh:


I'm not miserable or mean but nor do i suffer much bullshit which is essentially what this thread is.

Thanks, in no small part, to your “contribution.” I love you, too... :heehee:


This has nothing to do with you Marleena, this has everything to do with a CD deciding to come in here and stir up trouble for no reason. A CD that in all my years of being here I've never seen post in this section before (so why now??) I'm beginning to think that there is a pool of CDs who's job consist of coming to the TS section and making inflammatory remarks so they can then call us (TSes) a bunch of bitches and feel justified in doing so.

Pardon me if I was inquisitive about something expressed in another post! I came here because it was a TS, not a CD issue, and I have a few friends in this section, although YOU are not, and never will be one of them. That's quite a chip you have on your shoulder - where did you get it? Based on the two quotes above, it’s quite clear that there is a mean streak residing in SOME TS individuals – all I had to do was come here, drop a few words, and the abuse started to be hurled in my direction...

Why would I post here? Well, the current state of MtF discussion is...ahem...less than stellar, and there are a lot of intelligent minds in this section. That’s NOT a gratuitous compliment, it happens to be the truth. I go where the meaningful discussions might be, or might arise...

I didn’t come here to make inflammatory remarks, nor was the term TROLL on my mind. I don't fish. Can’t I just ask a question, based on nearly four years of viewing, and posting, on this site? Surely I can, and I have yet to see a “MtF crossdressers not allowed in this section” warning to all who may be foolish enough to enter. You don’t want ME here – that comes through loud and clear...


No, the OP has made that very plain when he said that we nauseate him. I have left it thus far to see if the troll-post could be turned into a useful discussion thread. The jury is still out on that.

Make it HER, please, and don’t twist my words to suit your opinions, dear moderator. If you don’t want incursions by MtF crossdressers in this section, or you don’t want me to stop by, then close the thread, and I’ll write it off as a learning experience. In terms of understanding the TS mindset, or whatever it is that drives you forward, you may think you’re part of the solution, but you’re part of the problem. Why so mean? We’ll never know...


I think the OP is off base here.

Of course I am! It’s called “starting a discussion,” and you should try it sometime... :hmph:

[ReineD]

Of course I am! It’s called “starting a discussion,” and you should try it sometime... :hmph:

The trouble with starting a discussion that starts off, as early as the title, by taking it to a personal level (name calling), is that it has the potential to inflame people and they just might become offended.

Still, the bulk of the people in this thread did not take offense (although I can understand the few who did), and so why don't you engage in the discussion that you started, by responding to the people who provided explanations? If I didn't know better, I'd think that you might be trolling.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

here we go..

note...now we are having conversations here that are "less than stellar"...

if a hypocritical, mean spirited, conceited, pompous, intellectually lazy jerk walks into a bar and....

oh never mind..

[Beth-Lock]

Well, I for one have found that nonetheless, enough discussion has taken place to give me something constructive out of it.

[Kathryn Martin]

Of course I am! It’s called “starting a discussion,” and you should try it sometime... :hmph:Freddy, why so defensive; and why point out the obvious? I would agree with Reine, that essentially the majority of the responses were trying to engage in your discussion. Yet in your response you just didn't seem to care about those but rather responded to those who clearly saw no merit in your question and said so.

So, do you want to address those who addressed your question or did you just feel combative today? (which we of course all do at times):meditate:

[Frédérique]

The trouble with starting a discussion that starts off, as early as the title, by taking it to a personal level (name calling), is that it has the potential to inflame people and they just might become offended.

My OP is based on my own experience on this site – I (and others like me) have endured some abuse over in MtF from individuals who are obviously not people who crossdress for pleasure. You try to discuss something, or write about something you enjoy, and along comes this mean backlash from people who probably shouldn’t be in on the discussion. We’re trying to feel good about ourselves. I assume transsexuals would echo that sentiment, so why would a TS take the time to knock the CD’s down a peg or two? What is to be gained by doing that?
:idontknow:


Still, the bulk of the people in this thread did not take offense (although I can understand the few who did), and so why don't you engage in the discussion that you started, by responding to the people who provided explanations? If I didn't know better, I'd think that you might be trolling.

I just came back from an extended break, and Marleena’s post (quoted in the OP) was on my mind. I thought I would TRY (key word) to investigate the origins of the cruelty alluded to in that quote, if only to resume my posting. I’ve been the recipient of some of that cruelty, in a second-hand way, so let’s discuss it. What goes around comes around, and I have a LONG memory, so here I am. I saw an opening...

The nature of the OP will always be seen as an attempt to troll, at least by those who are protective or defensive by nature – you’re putting up barriers to discussion when you accuse me of trolling. I have better things to do than bang my head against the wall of this section, but I am genuinely interested in WHY some TS members (or anyone, for that matter) would be tough or cruel to others. Many individuals have taken the time to ponder the question in the OP, while others couldn’t wait to jump on the intruder. Rather than dump on me, why not investigate the problem? I’ll be happy to do so, if I can, as soon as the bullies put their sticks and stones away...

I’m pleased that some people welcomed me, but I’m also dismayed that certain individuals feel the need to soil the proceedings. I expected as much, which is a crying shame...
:sad:


Freddy, why so defensive; and why point out the obvious?

Why so defensive? I'm being attacked, under the very same "umbrella" that should shield me...

[Kathryn Martin]

We’re trying to feel good about ourselves. I assume transsexuals would echo that sentiment.....

I think I can say with a fair degree of accuracy that if you are transsexual and you come to a place like this it is not to feel good about yourself but rather to get information and share with those who find themselves in similar circumstances. Essentially, we are in an existential struggle for our life and lives and we need to find tools to approach overcoming this struggle.


I thought I would TRY (key word) to investigate the origins of the cruelty alluded to in that quote, if only to resume my posting. I’ve been the recipient of some of that cruelty, in a second-hand way, so let’s discuss it. What goes around comes around, and I have a LONG memory, so here I am. I saw an opening...

This suggest as if you created the OP to exact some sort of payback, with the long memory and all. That among those who are transsexual there are some less than palatable human beings, then why elevate their significance by crediting them with a power that maybe they should not possess.


The nature of the OP will always be seen as an attempt to troll, at least by those who are protective or defensive by nature – you’re putting up barriers to discussion when you accuse me of trolling. I have better things to do than bang my head against the wall of this section, but I am genuinely interested in WHY some TS members (or anyone, for that matter) would be tough or cruel to others. Many individuals have taken the time to ponder the question in the OP, while others couldn’t wait to jump on the intruder. Rather than dump on me, why not investigate the problem? I’ll be happy to do so, if I can, as soon as the bullies put their sticks and stones away...

I did not see your OP as an attempt to troll, except the title was just ok. Likewise, maybe some here also have long memories and jumped, altogether sadly but still .....


I expected as much, which is a crying shame...

If you say things like that it seems to suggest that the motive for the post was the intention to call out..... I don't believe that.... but ....

[Kaitlyn Michele]

spite
/spīt/

Noun
A desire to hurt, annoy, or offend someone: "he'd think I was saying it out of spite".
Verb
Deliberately hurt, annoy, or offend (someone).

Synonyms
malice - rancour - rancor - grudge - malevolence

+++++

why are some people spiteful??
lets discuss that for a while instead..

[Badtranny]

Okay okay, I'll bite.

I can't speak to the alleged meanness, but I can certainly address why I personally try to draw a hard line between those that are or will transition and those that will not.

This site was instrumental in my awakening. I was aware of my proclivities throughout my life, but I honestly thought it all had something to do with me being a deeply closeted homosexual. It wasn't until I finally came out as gay and began living openly that I realized that I had a much bigger problem. It was this very forum that opened my eyes and allowed me to read and correspond with people that were very similar to me. For the FIRST time in my life, I was on the other side of the keyboard from someone who was attracted to men, but didn't feel like one, and more importantly DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Yes, an actual transsexual. Somebody who jumped the gender divide and did something that my 9 year old self had deemed impossible. They transitioned! It was this forum that opened my eyes to the possibilities and thus changed my life.

It wasn't until after I had been a member for awhile post transition that I noticed something that I considered shocking. Perhaps I'm naive, but there was a time when I considered all those that were advising and commenting on transition or TS issues to be speaking from experience rather than conjecture. I don't remember the exact conversation but someone was giving what I thought was bad advice to a young transitioner, (HRT related I think) and I got mixed up in it. A few weeks later, I noticed the same person that I was arguing with mention something about not being full time, and in fact not even on HRT.

It chilled me to think that I may have been receiving counsel from someone who had no experience whatsoever, back when I was most vulnerable.

After that realization, my mission became clear. I was going to spend my time here as an open book, my transition will be visible to all and I would report on the good the bad and the ugly with embarrassing honesty. I have no way of policing those who would deceive regardless of intentions, but I can certainly offer a counterpoint that is based on actual real world experience.

I think the TS section is not a place for fantasy or playtime, rather it is a place to discuss transitions and the ramifications of transitions. People are free to identify however they like, but I will flatly confront those that I think are making careless statements that I believe are potentially hurtful or confusing to those that are seriously considering a gender transition. I would prefer it if all TS members had to prove they were real, but absent of that, the best I can do is hold the line on honest communication about trans issues. We're all different but we're all transitioning and there is somebody out there that sees themselves in at least one of us. Don't we at least owe them honesty?

[STACY B]

Maybe being Brutally honest don't feel good to most or is not what they want to hear but its what they need to hear . Tuff Love maybe ? But one thing for sure ,, The ol transition thing aint nuttin to take lightly . For one thing its not all heels an stocking ,, An you can't change your mind an take your ball an go home . This is for real ,, An the older you get the worse it is ,,For the simple fact of your very identity is at stake . Who you are an were is all gone forever .
The person that all or almost all have known was a lie an is gone an NEVER coming back . People might have looked up to the person you were for one reason or another ? You got to jump up an tell the whole world that you were portraying the wrong person all your life an your changing an never going to be the same person again . Now that's a big deal . An if you have made a life in your home town from childhood to adulthood an even more you got a lot of unduing to do an a lot of questions to answer weather you want to or not . I know why they are Blunt an mean an say hateful stuff on this side of the trax !! The is not a play ground over here this is serious Bizzness .. Life choices that are concrete an ireversable . I was just as lost as all of the other an one day it hit me ,,These folks on this side play for keeps . An this is a slow process that takes a lot of patience an time an research that is priceless an hard to find .. An if you live down south you already know what I mean . So when the trans chix are snappy an not chipper give them a pass cause they got to deal with a lot in there lives ,,They can't take the heels an dress off an wipe off the makeup an go play man any more . They LIVE IT !! Day in Day out ,, This game is for real !!

[Anne2345]

Mean? These girls are life savers.

I could not have put it any better than Lea. The members here are not mean. Quite to the contrary, the vast majority of TSs here are well-intentioned, experienced, knowledgeable, generous, and compassionate. In fact, those here that have already transitioned need not even remain. They could go on their merry way, leave their past behind, and live the life they have worked sooooo hard to achieve.

I mean really? What do they owe the likes of me? Nothing. They owe me nothing at all. Yet, here they are, day in and day out, offering support, guidance, and assistance during my time of need, and others like me.

The thing is, as hopefully all will agree, the TS section ain't no playground, and the TS section ain't about fun and games.

Instead, this section is about desperation. It is about chaos. It is about pain. It is about loss. It is about brutal honesty to one's self and to others. It is about breaking through barriers, defenses, and denial until one's battered, bruised, naked soul is exposed raw for one and all to see. It is about intensity.

But the TS section is also so much more than that. It is about making progress. It is about learning to cope. It is about achieving self-acceptance and love. It is about fixing what has been broken for so very long. It is about transformation. It is about rebirth. It is about hope.

Hope that one can one day live a life that is not dominated by thoughts of wrongness every single hour of every single day. Hope that one does not feel compelled to commit suicide because the alternative is too miserable to contemplate or too difficult to accept. Hope that maybe one day, just maybe one day, life will work out and be as it was meant to be.

In other words, this section is about life, and learning to live.

It is heavy duty stuff for sure. And when non-TS members come into this sanctuary, and treat it as their playground, they invalidate us and our struggles. Whether intentionally or not, they minimize and disrespect all of the blood, sweat, and tears that go into making this section work.

I cannot speak to the past, but the members here are not mean. Far from it. They provide an invaluable service that I will be forever appreciative of and grateful for.

[Frédérique]

In other words, this section is about life, and learning to live.

Couldn’t you say the same thing about EVERY section on this site? :straightface:

[Beverley Sims]

......... Amen .........................

[ReineD]

My OP is based on my own experience on this site – I (and others like me) have endured some abuse over in MtF from individuals who are obviously not people who crossdress for pleasure. You try to discuss something, or write about something you enjoy, and along comes this mean backlash from people who probably shouldn’t be in on the discussion. We’re trying to feel good about ourselves. I assume transsexuals would echo that sentiment, so why would a TS take the time to knock the CD’s down a peg or two? What is to be gained by doing that?
:idontknow:

This is a different motive for having started your thread than stated in your OP. I (and many others) thought that you were upset over the fact that TSs are quick to point out the truth about transition to some of the CDers in pink fogs who believe they are women and who come to the TS section wanting to know how to grow breasts.

But you're actually upset over the fact that a few TSs in the past have taken exception to things that you or other CDers have said in the CD section? Gosh, what about the CDers who have taken exception to some of the things you've said? Or some of the GGs? Will you start a post in their sections to ask why they are so mean too?

Freddy, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. You've posted many threads, the responses in your threads have been overwhelmingly positive, but instead you are choosing to focus on the small percentage of posts that you did not like? I hate to state the obvious, but this is the internet! There are lots of different personalities here, some people are bound to not get along, just like in the real world! Why would you expect this site to be any different? The best advice I have for you is to focus on the vast majority of the positive posts, and ignore the rest. Besides, I don't understand why you would allow one or two negative posts in some of your threads to ruin your fun to begin with.

As to contentious posts, if any of the posts are flagrantly flaming, they are deleted by the mods. If you find one that was missed, you should report it. Other than that, differences of opinion are allowed as long as they are about concepts rather than personal. There are no barriers between the sections that keep some people out and other people in for two reasons. One, the line between CD and TS is not always clear since accurate self-assesment is a process that takes time and gender dysphoria is a gradient. And two, there is no reason why a discussion between the various members of this forum should not be productive, in fact it should rather be enriching, even if members have different goals.

So really, Freddy, you'll be happier if you stop painting with a broad brush and instead pay attention to the positives of this place. :)

[Tamara Croft]

I’ve been the recipient of some of that cruelty, in a second-hand way, so let’s discuss it. What goes around comes around, and I have a LONG memory, so here I am. I saw an opening...And I have a very long memory as well. So in other words, you started this thread to be nothing but a bitch correct? You started this thread because of something a now BANNED TS member did in the MTF section a very long time ago correct? So you thought you'd get your revenge by being starting this thread... your words 'I saw an opening'... kind of speaks volumes. So... in other words...


The nature of the OP will always be seen as an attempt to trollYou are being a troll, but rather than close this thread, I'm going to leave it open for discussion, see how many more 'mean' TS members you can target. That's what you've done basically haven't you?


why are some people spiteful??Yes let's do discuss that, why are people so spiteful, come into this section as nothing but a revenge act and call every single TS member we have 'mean'?? I don't know, maybe you can explain why Freddy? why have you held this grudge for such a long time eh?? nothing better to do?? :rolleyes:


child·ish

/ˈCHīldiSH/Adjective
1.Of, like, or appropriate to a child.
2.Silly and immature.

Synonyms
infantile - babyish - puerile - childlike - boyish Discuss...

<edit> I see Reine hit the reply button before me, but she seems to have picked up on the same thing...:^5:

[stefan37]

Couldn’t you say the same thing about EVERY section on this site? :straightface:

True the same could be said in every other section. But in this section we are not only affecting and changing our lives but everybody that is around us. I believe all individuals should disclose to those close to them character traits that might be important to the other partner. How many how do I tell my wife or girlfriend? Threads are posted daily. In our case we cannot hide who we are. It becomes obvious after some period of time and although we can fool those we are not intimate with. Those we are intimate with will notice and if we are not open trouble will soon follow. We have to live what we are going through 24/7. We need to disclose to Wives and partners, children, parents, friends, employers, employees, doctors and the list goes on. How many cross dressers can say the same. Can you?
I embarked on this travel with the help of my therapist, but my wife had to be included in the loop. I had my own expectations and method I thought would work for me. It was from talking to those on this site and those I met in person that have guided me and told me if a plan I had was folly. Without the hard brutal truth and nothing but "you go girl" it many times ends in disaster. Hearing the cold hard truth no matter how brutal it sounds and adjusting plans can mean the difference between success and failure.

We get lots of posters in this section where the fog has hit hard and it revolves many times about not being to express themselves with dress. They plow straight ahead and out of the blue express their plan to the spouse and then commiserate why the spouse wants to leave. So yeah we tend to be brutally honest and tell them what's up. Let's face it many women can live with a cross dresser but cannot live with an individual with a transsexual condition. The choice those posters have to make is sit on the fence or do something about it. There was a member that was extremely vocal, usually bulliesh, would say hurtful things, but if you parsed through the venom and “ her woman do not have penis's” mantra. The message was you have a condition, deal with it however you think you can but do not sit on the fence constantly whining about it. There is a huge difference not doing anything and complaining and whining about it, than actively treating it and expressing emotions when the losses do occur. This is hard and the decision to transition should not be taken likely. Many lives will be disrupted and irrevocably altered. Many suffer other conditions that make it much more difficult to deal with just transitioning. For me I am lucky I do not suffer from depression, and any anxiety I have can be channeled into other positive energy. I have a personality that allows me to persevere and survive whatever the odds are against me. Other members are not as fortunate and once they themselves make the decision to deal with their GD, they need to hear the truth but temper it with compassion. We all deal with issues in our lives differently and what may work for me will not work for you. Just recently we had a post in this section about dressing and going out for the first time and what a great experience it was and she passed with no problems etc. etc. blah blah blah. Well that is not reality. The reality is you will get clocked and while in the awkward stage I am in it is almost constant. Maybe they got confused and posted in the wrong section and one member made note of it, but you will notice many replies congratulating her for her courage and good fortune. I just ignored it. I hardly call that meanness.
We do get occasional posters in here with agenda’s and I do not know maybe they are confused or angry themselves, but to tell someone that does need to transition to save their life and their families to just “man up” and deal with it for their wives or kids is just being disingenuous, spiteful and brings absolutely nothing to the conversation about how to deal constructively about the issue.
I know this is long but I had these thoughts that were gnawing at me and I needed to express them.
Jeez I wish I could just be a cross dresser and live my life that way. But the thing is it did not turn out I could and my life, my wife’s and everybody I know is affected and I need to hear the brutal truth to deal with it constructively.
The Advice I have gotten here has been invaluable to me as I progress along my travels and I hope to stick around and give guidance to those that may not be as far along. Melissa said it correctly when she expressed dismay about those that have not traveled give advice as if they have, well that advice is suspect and could very well mean disaster. I do not always agree with what is written, but at least I know if the advice is solid and I heed or do not heed the decision and responsibility of MY decision is mine alone and I made the best choice I could at that time.

[Nigella]

The unfortunate thing about this whole thread is that it takes one to rake the muck. There have been strenuous efforts by all involved in this section to make it a safe place for all to post. Yes we have lost members because of past issues and new thinking, that is regrettable, but the forum is still here, so they were not the beall and endall.

Originally I was prepared to give the whole thread the benefit of doubt, but unfortunately the OP has shown her cards and is raking the muck.

[Anne2345]

Couldn’t you say the same thing about EVERY section on this site? :straightface:

Come on, Freddy! That wasn't fair, and you know it!

You know I would never suggest or believe otherwise about any section of this site. You also know that you plucked that one sentence I wrote from a much larger message and placed it in an entirely different context than it was intended to be.

As for the member who followed your response with an "amen," and who clearly did not take the time to read and understand my response - Funny sheep! Trix are for kids!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

My turn.


Or, if you prefer, why so miserable? :idontknow:

You got data to back those statements up? What meanness? If you're referring to TS's calling you out on foolish, passive-aggressive or downright hypocritical things you've said, that's not meanness and doing such doesn't make them miserable. It just means they disagree with you.


Why would people who frequent this section, established (or transitioning) transsexuals I assume, be harsh to inquisitive newbies?

Because some people are living in fantasy-land and need a reality check. Whether it's those who start a fast track transition after a month on the boards, someone combining alcohol abuse with transness, or engaging in risk-seeking behavior, or someone who is actively avoiding confronting the reality of their transsexual feelings, some people just need one.


but the statement above speaks volumes about that underlying nausea I get whenever I dare to voice an opinion about something that MAY border on the TG/TS order of things...

But your opinions on such are often ill-informed, reflect your own predjudices and are inflammatory. YOu can't expect EVERYONE to agree with you 100% of the time. You say you're just a "simple crossdresser who loves effeminacy" but they you say all sorts of things that show a lack of knowledge.



I’ve had numerous run-ins with those who either don’t share my enthusiasm for dressing against my birth gender, or feeling pleasure from something that others MUST do, according to their transsexuality.

The run-ins aren't because of the fact that you take pleasure, but because of the things you've said and your attention-seeking behavior.


In this context, “Am I a transsexual” seems like a fairly innocuous, if not reasonable, plea for clarity,

Actually, it's not. It's a question that is best NOT answered by others, but by oneself.


but why make the effort to anger, injure, or further confuse the person? You may very well feel the need to nip something in the bud, and this may qualify as some sort of necessary “support,” albeit cruel and tough, so you do the deed?

Tough love is necessary, at times. Maybe YOU want 100 percent agreement and unconditional support, but that doesn't work as well for TS folk. Imagine a TS that needs to work on her voice so she doesn't get sirred. Should people play nice and tell her how feminine and pretty her voice is, or should they say "You need to work on your voice then you won't get sirred on the phone so much"


Simple answer, Freddy - I don't see it as described.

Neither do I.


Call it tough love, bluntness, honesty or whatever you want, but when you need it and SEEK it, it goes down like pure water to the desert traveler.

Indeed.



I've been told point blank that I was indulgent, short-sighted, foolish, too trusting, foolish, self-centered, irresponsible, etc. At various times people have said I needed a slap, kick in the ass, etc. A few I found charming. Some were grating ... until I realized they were right. I've been told a few times directly that my input was ignorant and irrelevant, that I didn't have any idea what I was talking about. These were correct also.

Read that closely Freddy, it should look familiar. It's what the people whom you are calling mean, are trying to do. They're going right past the flowery words and bullshit, and getting to the point. They're helping you and you're covering up your ears.


And then it turns to Sherman's March through your life after THAT. There's just no room for speculation or BS.

"War is Hell" Aint got no time to waste. March to the sea and do what needs to be done. Always been a fan of Sherman.


Mean? These girls are life savers. You have no idea how important some of the conversations and relationships here are to me. Kathryn understates it.

Indeed. You know, it was Tough Love from a CD that eventually led me to going out and joining a support group and eventually later on identifying as TS (though she doesn't know that part, we lost contact)


note the word miserable..

I did note the word. Freddy uses such words often to describe TS's. What she sees as "miserable" is just practicality.


the OP is cleverly constructed ...if i state oh no you don't!! i'm defensive...if i'm silent i acquiesce to being called mean.....in either case i'm miserable...if he says so

I know, she's good at that sort of passive-aggressive post.


I'm not miserable or mean but nor do i suffer much bullshit which is essentially what this thread is.

There is something someone said about me, it was either on USENET or a different message board:

"The VeronicaMoonlit does not suffer fools lightly."


Mean? I don't think they are mean, short tempered sometimes, but not mean, maybe misunderstood, but mean? bit harsh don't you think?

Oh I freely admit to being harsh and perhaps mean at times. It takes a bit to get me to that point, but it happens. I personally became one of Freddy's mean girls when I complained about Book Antiqua and disagreed with her strongly.


Good God, a CD has a hissy fit because they can't dress for the day :rolleyes: a TS female or male can have the life of hell... and you think they're mean... :Pfft:

Laughs.


This has nothing to do with you Marleena, this has everything to do with a CD deciding to come in here and stir up trouble for no reason.

I agree.


I'm beginning to think that there is a pool of CDs who's job consist of coming to the TS section and making inflammatory remarks so they can then call us (TSes) a bunch of bitches and feel justified in doing so.

A pool, I think not, but Freddy that DOES rally people in IM to support her when someone disagrees with her and she DOES like playing the "Oh those TS's are so angry and they don't like me because I revel in my effeminacy" card.


BTW im not feeling mean or miserable or even angry, like i said before I just think this sort of BS needs to be recognized for what it is and nipped in the bud.

Well, I wouldn't say Im feeling mean right now...just "annoyed". (Just me typing that word has just caused some people to say "uh oh")


I think Frederique is one of the most quietly thoughtful people posting on this site, and the contribution of her reflections does add a bit of class to any section she chooses to post in.

While her musings may "look" thoughtful and original thanks to all the beating around the bush and flowery language, she basically writes the same thing over and over and over:


Oh how wonderful it is to revel in effeminacy when society hates us, and it does hate us dearies, Let me tell you how harsh and masculine the outside world is and we can bask together in sweet girlyness and relish the tactile nature of our girly garments. Don't let those others who do go out tell you any different, they aren't like us, they hate femininity and everything I stand for No one will pop our balloons here sweeties, those Bullies who pick apart my posts who are full of masculine energies, because women would never do that. Feminine people like us, never get mad or angry....what....your wife got angry when she found your stash? well your wife is obviously not feminine...when's the last time she wore a dress.

That's right lovies. girls like us don't get mad, that is such a horrid masculine thing to do. Oh NO we can't be masculine, we should just passive aggresively attack those who make a comment about our typeface legibility. How dare they disagree with me, sweet dear one that I am loved by my dear sweet feminine sisters in girlyness. Now shower me with praise and tell me how thoughtful and sensitive I am, before I write pretty much the same thing again tomorrow


If you walked up to a group of strangers and asked them why they are so mean or miserable would you be surprised if you got a less than stellar reception. It does seem to be a common thing where a CD makes a provocative post and then gets all self righteous (or someone else does on their behalf) and portrays themselves as being picked on. Apparently the CD is an innocent paragon of virtue being attacked by a group of mean miserable TS bullies.

Points to my Frederique pastiche above. Exactly.


And your proof of this moody, bad behavior is what? That it sounds like it might be a good explanation?

Her, meaning Frederique's, "proof" is that anyone that disagrees with her has to hate effeminacy and femininity and therefore must be miserable.


Honestly, one of these days I should collate a bunch of examples and post a thread in one of the other forums asking about it. You know - to be helpful and solicitous. Except that would be MEAN, wouldn't it???

You should do it anyway sometime, just to call out the hypocrisy.


No, the OP has made that very plain when he said that we nauseate him. I have left it thus far to see if the troll-post could be turned into a useful discussion thread. The jury is still out on that.

Woah! But yes, this is not the first time Freddy has used such words for TS's.


Another day, another useless attempt at discussion...:sigh:

But you didn't want discussion, what you want, and always want is for people to agree with you and tell you how sensitive and wonderful and feminine you are, just like the folks over in the CD section do.


Thanks, in no small part, to your “contribution.” I love you, too... :heehee:

You ARE a passive aggressive troll, you know that.


Based on the two quotes above, it’s quite clear that there is a mean streak residing in SOME TS individuals – all I had to do was come here, drop a few words, and the abuse started to be hurled in my direction...

Don't play the martyr with me. YOU came here, you didn't have to do so. You intentionally used inflammatory language partly hidden by your usual flowery words. What did you expect, that people wouldn't see you for what you are?


Why would I post here? Well, the current state of MtF discussion is...ahem...less than stellar,

You're a CD aren't you? then you are partly at fault as well aren't you?


I didn’t come here to make inflammatory remarks,

But you did! How are "miserable" and "mean" and some of the other things you have said not inflammatory?


Make it HER, please,

Oh? I thought you were just a simple crossdresser who didn't identify as transgendered because you think it means the same as transsexual. I thought you saw yourself as a male who liked effeminacy/femininity. So when did you get your transgender identity?


and don’t twist my words to suit your opinions, dear moderator.

She didn't.


If you don’t want incursions by MtF crossdressers in this section,

That isn't the case, there are crossdressers who post in here often...but they aren't inflammatory trolls.


The trouble with starting a discussion that starts off, as early as the title, by taking it to a personal level (name calling), is that it has the potential to inflame people and they just might become offended.

Yes, and I believe it was intentional and intended to "get back' at those who have disagreed with Frederique in the past. Those people tend to be either TS or strongly TG identified.


If I didn't know better, I'd think that you might be trolling.

Reine, I'm positive she IS trolling.


here we go..
note...now we are having conversations here that are "less than stellar"...

To tell the truth she was stating that about the CD oriented sections.


if a hypocritical, mean spirited, conceited, pompous, intellectually lazy jerk walks into a bar and....
oh never mind..

Come on, you can say the rest! Though some of us know it already.


My OP is based on my own experience on this site – I (and others like me) have endured some abuse over in MtF from individuals who are obviously not people who crossdress for pleasure.

If you make statements, some people are going to disagree, that is not abuse.


You try to discuss something, or write about something you enjoy, and along comes this mean backlash from people who probably shouldn’t be in on the discussion.

Say clueless, foolish, misogynist or downright wrong stuff, people will call you out for it.


We’re trying to feel good about ourselves. I assume transsexuals would echo that sentiment, so why would a TS take the time to knock the CD’s down a peg or two? What is to be gained by doing that?
:idontknow:

You can't expect everyone to fawn all over everything you say all the time. Geez you're a needy. Is your self esteem so tied up into how others view you as "sweet girlywhirly freddy" that you have to be THAT much of an attention *****?


so let’s discuss it. What goes around comes around, and I have a LONG memory, so here I am. I saw an opening...

So there's the truth, you wanted revenge against "the bullies that pop your balloons".


I’ll be happy to do so, if I can, as soon as the bullies put their sticks and stones away...

What a tactic, call people who disagree with you and call you out on your behavior, "bullies".


I expected as much, which is a crying shame...
:sad:

If you expected it, then why post. Wouldn't it be better to not start a fight?


Why so defensive? I'm being attacked, under the very same "umbrella" that should shield me...[/quote]

But most of your posts DENY the existence of the umbrella, you can't have it both ways You can't say: "Oh I'm so girlywhirly and those transgenders which is the word I use for TS's are so different than me and I don't consider us part of the same community." and then say: "Oh stop attacking poor sweet girly feminine me, we're under the same umbrella don't you know."


I think I can say with a fair degree of accuracy that if you are transsexual and you come to a place like this it is not to feel good about yourself but rather to get information and share with those who find themselves in similar circumstances. Essentially, we are in an existential struggle for our life and lives and we need to find tools to approach overcoming this struggle.

I would say, primarily for information, though there is emotional support involved.



But you're actually upset over the fact that a few TSs in the past have taken exception to things that you or other CDers have said in the CD section?

Yes, I've said that before. In fact I said that directly to you once.


Gosh, what about the CDers who have taken exception to some of the things you've said? Or some of the GGs? Will you start a post in their sections to ask why they are so mean too?

Nah, we're easy targets because she can "rally her troops" in IM to support her in threads she starts, mostly conservative older CD's who don't go out in public. They're her biggest fans because Freddy tells them what they want to hear. She also won't go after GG's, because GG's are quick to unite and go after cluelessness, misogyny and chauvinism.


but instead you are choosing to focus on the small percentage of posts that you did not like?

Yep, she's so needy that she has to have EVERYONE agreeing with her that she gets upset when people don't. She's mentioned before how surprised she was in other forums when people didn't agree with her or have the same viewpoint on things, so she left. She wants a mirror that tells her what she wants to hear about herself, and for the most part, she gets it. But then people like me come along and break the mirror for her and tell her what she doesn't want to hear.


I hate to state the obvious, but this is the internet! There are lots of different personalities here, some people are bound to not get along, just like in the real world! Why would you expect this site to be any different?

I suspect Frederique is older and doesn't really "get" the internet. She wants it to be another mirror to admire herself in.

You might find this website that lists "forum archetypes" to be funny...or not

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

Specifically look at: Big Cat, Kung-Fu Master, Ent, Royals...

And Fragile Femme and Whisper for someone else.


One, the line between CD and TS is not always clear since accurate self-assesment is a process that takes time and gender dysphoria is a gradient.

The thing is, Reine, is that Frederique doesn't agree with that and would get mad if you said that in one of her threads. She thinks there IS or SHOULD be a defined line.


And I have a very long memory as well.

As do I, I've been here longer than Freddy has.


So in other words, you started this thread to be nothing but a bitch correct?

Pretty much.


You started this thread because of something a now BANNED TS member did in the MTF section a very long time ago correct? So you thought you'd get your revenge by being starting this thread... your words 'I saw an opening'... kind of speaks volumes. So... in other words...

Yes, she's all about taking revenge. Whether directly calling people masculine for their posting style, or encouraging followers to attack (or ignore) people via IM.


You are being a troll, but rather than close this thread, I'm going to leave it open for discussion, see how many more 'mean' TS members you can target. That's what you've done basically haven't you?

yeah, and it will be more. I know I shouldn't have posted...but I did. Somebody has to say this stuff directly.


Yes let's do discuss that, why are people so spiteful, come into this section as nothing but a revenge act and call every single TS member we have 'mean'?? I don't know, maybe you can explain why Freddy? why have you held this grudge for such a long time eh?? nothing better to do?? :rolleyes:

Well it's easy. The TS/TS-leaning members are more likely to call her on her bullshit. The average closeted CD "loves" Freddy because she tells them what they want to hear. But then we "balloon popping meanies" pull apart Freddy's arguments and basically say to the closet folk they don't have to be so fearful. And then some of us comment about the legibility of "Book Antiqua" and said it and the overly flowery language was a crutch to have people perceive her as being all "girly whirly femininity personified". Some of us said that she didn't need the crutches, if she was truly feminine she would be perceived as such without them., I first did it a few years back....she's had a grudge ever since.


Come on, Freddy! That wasn't fair, and you know it!

She isn't fair, you know this. One of the reasons she's posting here in this section is that YOU are here. You used to be one of her big supporters agreeing with her in every way and disagreeing with folks like me. But now you're here and saying things like "you all were right". You know she is possessive in a sort of "smothering" way over her followers, so that just sticks in her craw don't you think? I mean, after all, she did tell you to ignore me (and probably others) directly, didn't she? She didn't want you to hear what we had to say because she is possessive and wanted you for herself. She saw you as being like her and "one of hers"...and now you're not.


Veronica

[Beth-Lock]

Wow, Veronica!

Actually, the threads and posts made by Frederique that really impressed me were mainly in the CD section.


Just a small point: the dilemma about whether to call a CD he or her. Though the etiquette of dealing with accepting the presentation of those in the trans community including CD's is in a state of flux, adopting a femme name and expecting people to use it and female pronouns, etc., when an MtF is presenting as femme, is not I think a privilege that should be denied to a CD. I think that point of etiquette, though debatable of course, does not imply that one need to be TS or TG to be entitled to that courtesy. Arguably acceptable variations in such new customs are to be expected until things settle down. So addressing an MtF CD, as 'she,' in the appropriate circumstances, or continuing to use 'he' is a debate on a point of etiquette, and not necessarily, (though of course it might be in some cases), a debate on whether a person is CD, TS, TG, or even a gender disdainer flirting with assuming an unaccustomed sexual role.

I think though that somebody should try and write a big booklet on trans etiquette, so people understand how we like to be treated, when it is acceptable. I put a few brief notes on etiquette in my New Year's/Christmas newsletters this year, in which I tried in other ways to clear up confusion with my status among my out of town relatives. Any book or booklet should include of course a sample of acceptable variance in the rules.

[Beverley Sims]

As for the member who followed your response with an "amen," and who clearly did not take the time to read and understand my response - Funny sheep! Trix are for kids!

Anne, I said Amen, as I feel the whole post had been done to death, by everybody.
I was endeavoring to be a thread killer.

I had read your post and amen was to close out Frédérique's comment.
If you remember I did get stuck into you about wanting to get off the spinning top a short while back.
I am still pleased that you are posting , it keeps your mind off other things for a start.
I do support you.

I am sure this is one of the most read posts of recent times judging by the amount of quotes that are remarked on.
If Frédérique is raking the muck as Nigella says, it is through her experience on the board.

On the surface I do not see it.
When Frédérique said it nauseated her I read that to be she was sick in the stomach or whatever about the posts some made not the people themselves.

On another note it has brought everyone out into a discussion and I am sorry........
But it has made entertaining reading watching everyone tear each others hair out.
I think you are trying to destroy each other as well

I would much prefer a more light hearted approach to some other subject about transition.
There are a lot of depressing moments but there are the good times as well. Where are they in the mix of things.
I have not seen them.

[Aprilrain]

But it has made entertaining reading watching everyone tear each others hair out.
I think you are trying to destroy each other as well

I would much prefer a more light hearted approach to some other subject about transition.

I'm glad your entertained by what you perceive to be a cat fight...I don't see it, what I see is the majority of the TS section rallying together to protect what we have come to view as precious, our little corner of the .com. No one is pulling anyones hair out, why can't people be called out on their BS? If all you want is light hearted "you go girl" fare perhaps the CD section would be more to your taste. If there is no "what color panties are you wearing" or "I'm only Bi when dressed as a woman" threads currently I'm sure one will come along shortly.

[Beverley Sims]

Thank you April,
I hope it rains on you too.

It is this type of response trying to belittle others that has led to this catfight
I think with your aggressiveness you tar everyone else with the same brush.

[emma5410]

Anne, I said Amen, as I feel the whole post had been done to death, by everybody.
I was endeavoring to be a thread killer.

I do not think anyone is fooled by that. You were registering your support for Frederique selective posting one small part of Anne2345's post. Frederique was trolling and you have supported it all the way through.


But it has made entertaining reading watching everyone tear each others hair out.
I think you are trying to destroy each other as well

And still you troll.

As far as referring to Frederique as 'he' does not that match the declared gender. Frederique has said that he does not feel female and has no intention of ever transitioning. That is fine but that makes him male. Wearing a frilly dress with matching panties does not change that.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So "Amen" was a thread closer..??? hehe
by that were you meaning that the OP gets the last word...all you folks that were offended or feel the op was simply a trojan horse for spite should just take it ??
that our displeasure at being broad brushed with petty attacks is nothing more than entertainment to you? that we just "catfighting"??? do you think our "panties in a bunch" too??

you can't just bark amen at the fire you started as it turns in a direction you did not anticipate

Frankly this has been a great thread...i am really pleased with the responses, and i'm especially pleased that that the OP has been caught red handed...hoist by their own petard as the great one wrote..
sorry but i am....

there is a FALSE narrative in our forum...there is no amount of general "meanness" or cruelty in our forum...we are not miserable...our conversations are MUCH MORE THAN STELLAR...the OP construed "tough love" with "mean"....the OP did that for personal reasons that are self evident..the OP knew exactly what they were doing..and has done it before....

the responses were overwhelmingly negative...and why not?...in effect it was a brick thrown through our window by a passerby...and we got some little follow on bricks thrown in as well...
this passerby has absolutely nothing to do with us except for the time when somebody that looked like us must have thrown a brick through his window....

most important to me though is that the responses were not mean...the responses were not miserable...they were thoughtful and measured...they did not nauseate...they were simply to the point... they were only defensive in the sense that they rejected the assertion in the OP

...they were only disappointing to the OP because they did not agree with the unfounded assertions that were made..

so i am delighted we had this discussion
...after all thats all the OP wanted.. correct?

i'm assuming that the OP must be delighted as well..

[Tamara Croft]

It is this type of response trying to belittle others that has led to this catfightAre you kidding me?? You think Aprils response led to a catfight?? :OMG: I'm sorry, but seriously, get real!! Freddys thread started the catfight by calling TS's mean and it's not the first time she's started a thread that's caused issues and I'm sure it won't be the last. For someone who has NEVER posted in this section, or showed any support, or tried to understand a TS life, she sure as hell thinks she knows it all and she does not. I stand by my statement, this whole thread was posted in spite, for revenge, trolling... and it's quite pathetic to say the least!!

[Beverley Sims]

Tamara,
It was the type of response that April made to me is how I replied.
I felt I was being belittled by her.
I do not have the depth of knowledge to know whether the OP was trolling or not.
I did get this from Nigella and I accept what you both say.
My reply was a personal reply to April as I felt she was trying to slur me.
I am reading these posts over and over with interest, even if I do use my form of levity to reply.
I am getting the feel more and more of how on edge some do feel and I can only apologize every time I make light of it.
I do see this as a developing cat fight and the OP has had too much mileage out of it anyway.
People are making unwarranted comments and I do not think it is defending the Trans community it is just baiting others.
I do think there are more interesting and serious subjects to discuss here.

Why do I keep coming back.
I hadn't seen your post kaitlyn,
I have felt for quite a while this thread was denigrating to the respondents who were replying.
I agree it has been a great thread as it has given me a mor intimate insight into what goes on.
I have mentioned before that two of my friends transitioned and I chickened out.
I stopped the hormones. I did have to console them and help them when no one else would and there were three guys all crying on each others shoulders on occasions.
I have "enjoyed" reading the thread many times now and I really did not think that I would stir the pot as well.
I just wanted to put a lid on it. I have never posted so many times in the one thread either.

[Aprilrain]

Thank you April,
I hope it rains on you too.

It is this type of response trying to belittle others that has led to this catfight
I think with your aggressiveness you tar everyone else with the same brush.

April showers bring May flowers:battingeyelashes:

Seriously though, where is this cat fight that you speak of? All I see are two members who happen to be CDs defending and indefensible position. I see a lot of other members who happen to be TS and a couple of GGs defending the TS section from said indefensible position, namely; that we're all mean.

[Beverley Sims]

Here I go again,

Thanks April,
I do not like angst and I was not aware it was a trolling episode.
The way I read the words originally I did get the wrong opinion.
I even re worded one of my posts as it looked like I had colluded with Frederique.
As I said going through the thread I felt a real bun fight had developed with people posting others quotes and sometimes taking things out of context.
I haven't said it and I do not think you are mean.
A lot of you are assertive, arrogant towards others as your comments to me suggested.
I can see why, those that CD are on a different level to people like yourself and some do not understand, or want to.
I myself like to appear as a woman, I was very successful when I was 20.
These days the rot has set in and I am not like my former self.
I am happy to be told where I am wrong so as I can learn.
I do like taking part in the forums use a little levity and lend support where I am able.
I have had a couple of people use my sage? advice and it pleases me greatly.
So anytime we meet again I will pick those May flowers and put them in a vase.

[Anne2345]

Beverly, with all due respect, just get over it. You can't come into this thread, make some comments, state how entertaining it is to you, accuse us of engaging in cat fights, advise us that we should be more light-hearted with our approach, then unilaterally attempt to close the thread yourself without someone here responding to you in the manner April did.

So that's on you. You had that coming.

Worse, you now claim you lack the proper depth of knowledge to participate in this thread. Oooookay. So the obvious question becomes why have you inserted yourself into this at all??! Particularly in the manner in which you have.

As far as April is concerned, she is a class act, and a wonderful person. She is also my friend, both in the e-world and the real world. All she asks, as do we all, is that you and others show some respect, civility, and common sense in communicating.

[PaulaQ]

Originally Posted by LeaP

And your proof of this moody, bad behavior is what? That it sounds like it might be a good explanation?
Her "proof" is that anyone that disagrees with her has to hate effeminacy and femininity and therefore must be miserable.


LeaP's comments were originally directed at a post I added to this thread, and have subsequently deleted, because they were obviously badly misunderstood. I want to categorically state that I do not feel the way you suggest above, and I am very sorry, and humbly apologize if my remarks came across that way, or if it seemed that I in any way agreed with Frederique on this matter. (I am horrified that this would be the case!)

If I can just state in the strongest possible terms that I feel the original post in this thread is an unfair blanket accusation of a group, and that it can serve no real constructive purpose to my mind. To put it bluntly, it was a bunch of shit.

Again, I sincerely apologize to all whom I've inadvertantly offended.

[Sandra]

Whilst I agree with what has been said about Freddy in that she is a troll etc...she has also IMO got what she most likely set out to do and that is to have us all having ago, she's probably sat at home now laughing at all of us. Have none of you noticed that she doesn't post a great deal on here has times of absence but, when she comes back on and starts posting 9 times out of ten controversial....so :troll:

[VeronicaMoonlit]

April showers bring May flowers:battingeyelashes:

Laughs.


I see a lot of other members who happen to be TS and a couple of GGs defending the TS section from said indefensible position, namely; that we're all mean.

Well, I freely admit that I can most certainly be mean. I have done so at those I consider especially clueless or foolish, though I usually try strong words first...but some people have to be virtually hit over the head with reality before it takes.


LeaP's comments were originally directed at a post I added to this thread, and have subsequently deleted, because they were obviously badly misunderstood.

I'm sorry, my response about proof was aimed at Frederique, not you, because we are pretty much on the same page. I edited it to make it a bit more clear.


or if it seemed that I in any way agreed with Frederique on this matter. (I am horrified that this would be the case!)

Don't worry, I know you don't agree.


If I can just state in the strongest possible terms that I feel the original post in this thread is an unfair blanket accusation of a group, and that it can serve no real constructive purpose to my mind. To put it bluntly, it was a bunch of shit.

What a lovely succinct way of putting it, that took me many quotes to say pretty much the same thing.

That sad part is, Frederique won't see my post....sigh. (She tends to put people who disagree with her on ignore.)

Veronica

[Beverley Sims]

Thanks everyone for your tolerance of me,
I really feel I walked right into this one.
I do have foot in mouth disease.

[Kathryn Martin]

Wow, I am stumped. This really has deteriorated to a one-up-man-shit. I am the meanest, cruelest, most obnoxious woman with a transsexual history around and I freely admit it. I keep giving "lectures" which imply a lot of bad things, and when I get my cruel on I will tell you horrible things about yourself (at least as revealed and shown through what is observable on the site).

The reason why I am so mean and cruel is that, well, I am a shit. And as a shit I tell people when what I see is someone flying a fantasy and I can see the crash and burn at the end.

So now, anyone want to challenge me who the greatest shit on this forum is?:Punch:

[LeaP]

I would much prefer a more light hearted approach to some other subject about transition.
There are a lot of depressing moments but there are the good times as well. Where are they in the mix of things.
I have not seen them.

You must not be looking. I've read posts concerning things like milestones, surgeries, overcoming, self-realization, families coming around, work acceptance, and the like about virtually every TS member.

You want light hearted? You're not TS, right? Is what you want for the TS forum even relevant? Serious question. Personally, I don't feel like I'm here for anyone's entertainment, though once in a while I apparently - and inadvertently - supply it.


April showers bring May flowers:battingeyelashes:



This has to be one of the best retorts I've read in ages! Hilarious!!!

Beverly - behold the levity. Wicked sense of humor, April!

[ReineD]

So now, anyone want to challenge me who the greatest shit on this forum is?:Punch:

I won't challenge you. I accept your premise whole heartedly. Good for you! :D

[Frédérique]

Yeah, hilarity ensues. Let's rain on EVERYONE'S parade...:waiting:

I would say this is a successful thread. What have we learned, or revealed?

We’ve learned that people, let’s call them transsexuals, are very sensitive about their “position” on this site, or in the world, or in their own existence, whatever it entails. Some TS individuals are more comfortable with themselves than others might be – I base this conclusion on the many different responses I have received to the question in the OP. Those who are unhappy, or, shall we say, miserable, can’t wait to vent their unhappy spleens at the nearest target, namely me...

That’s all well and good, for I saw this coming. I asked “Why so mean?” because this meanness comes through, all over the site, and I know where it originates. I’m just wondering WHY that is, nothing more, and nothing less. Do you think that YOU, the transsexual, are far more realistic than other types of crossdressers (well, this IS a site for crossdressers, isn’t it?), so you take the opportunity to declare this in writing, however couched in language it may be? This “tough love” that was referred to many posts ago – isn’t this another way of separating the wheat from the chaff, so you don’t have to bother supporting everyone? This tough attitude, or just plain toughness, permeates the entire site, a reflection of the overall “trans-“ mindset around here. I'm just sayin'...

I harp on this a lot, because MtF crossdressers get no respect. Just today I got a PM from one of my detractors in this thread, and the individual pointed out, in clear language, that I should start respecting transsexuals (she called me a "straw man"). That struck me as being VERY funny, since, from my perspective, we MtF crossdressers get ZERO respect from top to bottom on this site. It's true. Since support for all is alluded to, if not actually provided, I’m kinda interested to see why that is. That’s where threads like this come from – I want to know WHY some people are so mean to others. Lack of support, as well as lack of respect, HURTS, as many in this section may understand all too well...

Accordingly, I was interested (even amused) to learn that some TS individuals are mean to other transsexuals! That’s quite revealing, I would say. You know, I can honestly say that I’ve never been mean to another MtF crossdresser, even if they were soon to leave that section and head off on their personal journey from M to F, or even if they were less-than-friendly towards me. I figure I should support people on this site, and I do, but I am always perplexed by this incursion of mean-spirited people who seem to enjoy what they do. Right now, I’m being stoned in a pit of my own making by the same people who have tried to make MY life miserable ever since I became active. Coming here, with inquisitive intentions, I might as well paint a target on my dress – its open season on Freddy! Are you happy? Really?

I’m glad to see all of my old “friends” hurling barbs in my direction. I wonder how you would feel, if you were in my place. Do I respect YOU? Of course, and I expect you to respect ME. If you don’t want to gaze at your own reflection, in the mirror I’ve provided, then I will gladly traipse back to MtF and stay there for the foreseeable future. I’m just asking a question, and I can tell by the nature of the responses that I’m on to something. I hit a nerve. Truth be told, I know I cannot change the way that things are on sites like this – not only does meanness proliferate on these discussion forums, but I’ve encountered this same problem on other crossdressing sites...

I was on a UK site back in 2005, and there was a lovely TS person who was extremely supportive and kind, even to a lowly MtF crossdresser like me. This person was all over the place on that site, offering help, welcoming newbies, and injecting meaningful responses into nearly every thread of consequence. I admired this individual, and I wanted to be like her – in other words she gained my respect. After a while she left the site, only to return, leave again, and then, tearfully, return yet again. Sadly (you could feel her tears), she told how many people on the site came down heavily on her, for no apparent reason, the same type of mean spirited individuals I am referring to in this thread. Of all the people who SHOULD be on a site like this, my TS friend was a perfect fit, but, being emotional, others used her as a target for their own shortcomings...

My friend left with her tail between her legs, as the quote in the OP mentioned, and it was VERY unfair, unkind, and unnecessary. That stuck in my mind, and, since this problem still exists (and will always exist), why not speak up about it here and now? Say what you want about me, but please be aware that your tough attitude is counter-productive to the support that many need. Of course, I know many people in this section are exemplary with their welcoming feelings and a strong sense of community, but I’m talking about the ones who are mean for no reason. I know who you are, in fact I refer to my non-friends as “the usual suspects.” They’re all here, in this thread...

I don’t expect reasonable responses to this – I know many of you will just twist my words into pointed sticks and poke me for your own amusement. BTW, did you know that many people (in this section) agree with me? How revealing...

PS – If you wish to be mean to me, please don’t do it here – send me a PM. I may actually read it...:straightface:

[Nigella]

This thread is now done, I have said before that this forum is open to all to post in, but not for ANYONE to start a war. I have a simple rule for anyone posting in this forum, if you want to start arguments, then stay out you are not welcome, if you are willing to discuss, then feel free to post.

[Tamara Croft]

I would say this is a successful thread. What have we learned, or revealed?We've learned that you're a troll :) you've revealed that really well... and the next time you decide to troll a section, you'll find out just how mean I can be, because believe me, I can be really mean :gg:

(I guess trolls don't listen :rolleyes: )