Lets Change Perceptions

[Sophia Rearen]

Hi Girls,
Now I know this has been covered before, but, I think it's so important that we need to keep it in the forefront. Last night, I went to to a tri-ess Christmas party. I was invited by a member, whom I met through URNA. After the dinner, a member here, oohtammi, showed up and asked to join the party. I was so glad she did. She was a wonderful addition to the group of girls.

Anyway, one of our discussions was, we all believed that we girls, need to get out into the public more. I'm sure the rest of the girls here can attest to the fact that once your out, it just feels like your given right to be out with the general public. Girls, if you have not yet done so, please do it. The stories of negative reaction are so miniscule. When your out most people don't care. But, please for the sake of the crossdressing future, do it with some decorum. Try to fit in as best as possible. The "hey, look at me, I'm a crossdresser" look is not a good way to promote a positive lifestyle. Wearing skirts up to one's nether region at the mall can't be good. There's a time and place for everything. Case in point. While we were having our function in a private room downstairs, I had to use the ladies room upstairs. When heading in I noticed a "girl" sitting in the main dining room. She was dressed in a little girls' red Chrismas outfit. Complete with large lolly pop and a blond pigtail wig. :eek: Surprisingly, she was dining alone. Girls, this can't help our cause in any way, shape or form.

I know I'm too old to reap the benefits of total open exceptance by the public. But, I know it's coming. My goal is to have it be excepted such as the way lesbians are today. I want to hear from GG's. "Your a crossdresser? That's so cool! I wish my boyfriend/husband would dress! Or, I wish I could find a guy like that". I'm telling you girls, it's going to happen. Question is, do you want to wait 10-20 years or 5-10 to see the fruits (no pun intended) of our labor.

Get out there and be good ambassadores for the crossdressing community and post your stories here. This is the place for a revolution!

[Darlena]

Sophia is right girls. When I was younger and would go out in public the law was not so friendly towards that sort of thing. All that has changed though.(WHEW!) T girls are more accepted nowadays thanks largely to those who have preceeded you in the merry parade of transgendered expression. More media exposure & enlighted legislation makes it a paradise compared to when I was younger.(read my posts) Do it and your confidence level will soar I promise you. If you truely want to feel femme Take a walk on the wild side. I said "Hey, Babe. Take that walk. It's truely liberating. Take a friend or two with you. Love & kisses, Darlena:^5:P.S. Try not to look like a drag queen/hooker. Natural is more of a positive statement

[susandrea]

I know what you mean.

There is a fairly large grey area where CDs and drag queens overlap. Some drag queens make it a point to be as outrageous as possible.

This is an opportunity to educate the public. If you are a CD and you go out, and someone asks if you are a drag queen, you can gently inform them of the difference.

I find drag queens a riot. I saw many of them when I worked in Manhattan. So theatrical! They live in a whole other world and generally seem to be quite happy. I can't say I completely understand them, but they certainly are brave!

There's one who comes into our store once in awhile. He wears a tutu and pushes his little dog in a stroller. He also wears those platform shoes you could put goldfish in, if you wanted to. He certainly rocks our world on those days. He's anything BUT boring.

I think my point is this: They are here to stay. They are "out there" in greater numbers than CDs, at least for now. Live and let live, I say.

I do agree with you about CDs trying to look like sexpot teenagers when they're middle-aged. I understand WHY, but it isn't a great look, and it isn't anywhere near convincing if that's what you're after.

So... I guess it all boils down to what your objective is. Convincing or outrageous?

:)

[CharleneCD]

Sophia, Looks like we both went to Tri-Ess parties last night. I hope you enjoyed yours as much as I did mine.

As for the main Idea of the post, I try to set a good example for my fellow CD's every time I go out. My wife ( with my permission) has also told alot of her GG friends about my dressing when they complain about not finding good men. Knowing and liking me, we hope they might be interested in meeting one of our sisters.

[Sophia Rearen]

I know what you mean.

There is a fairly large grey area where CDs and drag queens overlap. Some drag queens make it a point to be as outrageous as possible.

This is an opportunity to educate the public. If you are a CD and you go out, and someone asks if you are a drag queen, you can gently inform them of the difference.

I find drag queens a riot. I saw many of them when I worked in Manhattan. So theatrical! They live in a whole other world and generally seem to be quite happy. I can't say I completely understand them, but they certainly are brave!

There's one who comes into our store once in awhile. He wears a tutu and pushes his little dog in a stroller. He also wears those platform shoes you could put goldfish in, if you wanted to. He certainly rocks our world on those days. He's anything BUT boring.

I think my point is this: They are here to stay. They are "out there" in greater numbers than CDs, at least for now. Live and let live, I say.

I do agree with you about CDs trying to look like sexpot teenagers when they're middle-aged. I understand WHY, but it isn't a great look, and it isn't anywhere near convincing if that's what you're after.

So... I guess it all boils down to what your objective is. Convincing or outrageous?

:)


Susan,
I agree with you. Drag queens such as you described are a hoot. How can you not atleast chuckle at such. In Manhatten, you can expect as much, it's what helps give NYC it's flavor. But, as I said, there's a time and place for everything. People going out to dinner in an upscale small town hotel don't necessarily want/need to see it.
We cd'ers need to increase the number of girls such as Charlene in the public's eye. Let the hooker type walk the Sunset strip if they so choose.

[susandrea]

Susan,
I agree with you. Drag queens such as you described are a hoot. How can you not atleast chuckle at such. In Manhatten, you can expect as much, it's what helps give NYC it's flavor. But, as I said, there's a time and place for everything. People going out to dinner in an upscale small town hotel don't necessarily want/need to see it.
We cd'ers need to increase the number of girls such as Charlene in the public's eye. Let the hooker type walk the Sunset strip if they so choose.

It's true there is a time and place for everything. But you do have to be careful not to adopt the uptight attitude that most people have towards anyone who is "different". After all, how are they really hurting you? You certainly don't want to come off as unaccepting as the people who firmly believe that any deviation from the norm is disgusting and unnatural. Would you want to be the one who decides what is right and what is wrong? I wouldn't!

I'm more distressed by parents who allow their kids to scream all through dinner, or by some anger management reject cussing out a waitress than I am by someone's choice of apparel.

I agree that the trashy look so many CDs and DQs adopt does tarnish the over-all perception the unwashed have towards the entire subject, and it is an issue that deserves discussion.

Personally, I'd rather see a DQ in a silly Santa outfit than a three hundred pound woman in a sleeveless tank top with forty pounds of naked flab hanging out of the bottom of her shirt. I see it all the time and it never ceases to amaze me!

[Julie]

Sophia,

You're so right about the importance of us getting out and presenting ourselves in a positive manner. What I've found is newbies to the going out scene tend to dress a bit more provocatively, very short skirts, very high heels, very tight clothes. You'd never see a GG dressed like this unless she was a 'working girl'. There have been times I've been embarassed by some of the outfits I've seen. This hurts our image.

So ladies, take Sophia's advice and use some decorum when you present yourself in public. It will go a long way towards improving our image.

[KathrynW]

Girls, if you have'nt yet done so, please do it. The stories of negative reaction are so miniscule. When you're out most people don't care.
This certainly can't be used as a general rule for everyone. This very much depends on where you live and what kind of places you go to.
When heading in I noticed a "girl" sitting in the main dining room. She was dressed in a little girls' red Chrismas outfit. Complete with large lolly pop and a blond pigtail wig. :eek: Surprisingly, she was dining alone. Girls, this can't help our cause in any way, shape or form.
Well, I agree with you 100% on this. That kind of thing is ridiculous.

[Phoebe Reece]

Sophia, I'm with you on this one. Those of us that go out dressed in public are kind of ambassadors for the crossdressing community. Even those that go mainly to gay bars and drag show clubs should be aware that a lot of ordinary straight people will see them and form some kind of opinion about their presentation.

I do not advocate the idea that you should just wear jeans and a sweatshirt when out simply because that is what most GG's are wearing. After all, I am often one of the very few in the mall wearing a skirt, hose, and heels. It is all a matter of what is appropriate for a woman to wear. A skirt and heels may not be what most women wear to the mall these days, but it is not inappropriate for them to do so.

If you present yourself as a stylish well-dressed woman and are "read" as a crossdresser, the person who read you might be thinking: "Gee, that's a nice dress. I wonder where he bought that....." If you present yourself as a cheap hooker and are "read", the person who read you might be thinking: "Whatever he charges is too much....."

[Daphne Renee]

I have to admit I admire you ladies that do go out.. sometimes I wish I could do the same.

[sue_donim]

I agree that presentation makes a big differance when going out and helps to portray a better image of our lifestyle. Also that we should get out in public more.

I also feel that more can be done to promote our lifestyle. I have read so many threads in this forum, blaming society for the way we are perceived, and blaming society for not understanding us. It is up to us to educate society so that our children or their children do not have to live with the emotional turmoil and struggle for acceptance that we have all been through.
The way we present ourselves now can bring about that change sooner rather than later. Those who go out on a regular basis are doing their part in changing society's perception and helping to educate the public. I know a lot of people can't get out for various reasons but that doesn't mean they can't help to bring about a change, maybe they could write to a magazine/paper column. Or if we all got together and formulated an information sheet explaining our lifestyle, then each of us could print out a few copies and discreetly leave them in a library or a doctors surgery, even if this only changes one persons view of us it will help in the long run.

Sue_donim :)

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Some thoughts, addressed to no individual,

i too dislike seeing those who make no effort, nor take pride in how they dress or dress as ****s. But that is a matter of personal taste whether it be a man or a woman.

Drag queens can be entertaining and a work of art and I know one adult male who publically dresses as a little girl, he won the Turner prize.

If we argue for acceptance, is a man dressed as a tart less acceptable than a street girl? Is an artist like Grayson Perry dressed as a little girl less acceptable than women falling drunk on the street on a friday night?

What of the physically challenged CD? What if to be overweight, or of overtly masculine build, or over a certain height, were considered unnacceptably feminine?

I agree it is worth helping others be all they can be, but the idea of censorship worries me ...
... because who is to be the arbiter of what is or is not tasteful or acceptable? We already have adequate public decency laws.

Why be ashamed of what we are, men who dress as women, and sadly if women are accepted dressed that way, why not men?

The more the public see transvestites every day, the more normal and accepted it becomes. Arguably it is those who hide their original gender who may be doing the TG community a greater diservice

[Miss Sherry]

I agree with the sentiment of this thread: that those of us who go out are ambassadors for the whole community. I am also a little disturbed at the thought of suppressing expression.

If a girl wears a micro-mini with hairy legs and a 4 ft wig, then she will be perceived as exactly that: a guy wearing silly clothes. I don't think that is going to hurt our acceptance (but perhaps his). I don't think it's the clothes that matters as much as the attitude. If you're going to be a lady, act like one; if you're going to be a ****, keep it to yourself.

When I go clubbing, it's miniskirts and heels (see my posts in the picture thread); when I go to the corner store it's capris, tennys, and a sweater; and when I go to the mall it's a nice dress and slip-ons. But always it's a lady first.

Sherry:)

[Darlena]

Okay, GIRLS. Just to prove a point..,I,Darlena am going out tonight.(in a small town of 1500 population) by myself. Don't worry...I am well trained in the art of fung koo master.(please talk me out of this) Tee Hee! A first in this quiet little town. But I want the younger girls to join me.If not in in deed,then in sisterhood spirit. I'll keep you posted. By the way..,it's in the 20's right now. Love you, sister DarlenaP.P.S. It is freaking COLD!!@w:

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Okay, GIRLS. Just to prove a point..,I,Darlena am going out tonight.(in a small town of 1500 population) by myself. Don't worry...I am well trained in the art of fung koo master.(please talk me out of this) Tee Hee! A first in this quiet little town. But I want the younger girls to join me.If not in in deed,then in sisterhood spirit. I'll keep you posted. By the way..,it's in the 20's right now. Love you, sister DarlenaP.P.S. It is freaking COLD!!@w:

Tee hee Darlena,

cold??? we-ll girl you would wear that panty flashing micro miniskirt!!!

Good luck sweetie,
hugz

[GypsyKaren]

Hi Sophia

I totally agree with you on this. Whenever I go out I just want to look as good as I can, and as normal as I can. It actually is much more comfortable this way, and lately I've taken to wearing pants when I go out, and sensible shoes too. There's a time and place for short skirts, doing the grocery shopping at Wal-Mart or wherever isn't one of them.

GypsyKaren

[Raychel]

I also agree, but with anything good this will take time to grow. The first step should be for all of us to come out to our SO's. I have just recently so this is just breaking ground here. It will take a while before this has all grown enough to go out in pubic. But rest assured, if it does get to that point then I will be a proud and well dressed member.

For all of those that do go out dressed, Be Proud and Do something good for someone when you are out. Help that little old lady bring her bags to the car, Hold the door for the pretty lady right behind you. Be courteous towards other while driving.

These are all nice things to do that the general public has forgotten all about. That will make us stand out in a good way. Make those people think, "Hey wait a minuite that man in a dress was very nice to help me that way" By doing these small things consistantly we can become Supermaninadress:D :cool: :eek:

[Amelie]

I have to agree with Tiffany, and maybe even go a little bit further.

It is nobodies bussiness on how I dress. I don't dress so that I can blend in at the malls, I could do this while dressed as a man. I dress outragously so that I can be seen and I don't dress like a shopping mall woman. I am more like a drag quenn than a shopping mall type CD. And who would be the judge of what is appropriate style of dress, would it be the members here, would it be the Mods, who would be the judge of what is the right and wrong clothes to wear. I wouldn't want anyone on this forum to be a judge of clothes in any way.

I was in a club once and I had a member of Tri-Ess came over and talked to me. This person who, was over six foot tall, had facial hair showing, had an ugly wig, he sort of looked like Herman Munster in a dress. This guy came up to me and said how foolish I looked as a punk girl and somehow I was hurting his(Tri-Ess) image of what a crossdresser should look like. He wanted to be one of the judges. I am curious, could I judge him and tell him that he was hurting my image. What criteria do we use to judge, is it just the clothes, how about CDs that shoe a little facial hair, how about big strong men, are these guys hurting the image, or is just the hooker types. I'm sorry to say but these guys hurt my image more that the hooker types. I would never say this, because it would be wrong, I can't judge others, especially on the clothes they wear.

If one wants to dress as a shopping mall girl and blend in, that is fine. If others want to dress outragously then it is also fine, NO ONE on this forum has the right to judge others on how they should dress. And it is wrong to say that there is a time and place to dress outragously, this is just a rule you are trying to set for others, everyone has the right to dress they way they feel happy, it is not up to us to make society like us, we don't have to fit in a mold that society would like us to be.

Everyone should be able to dress anywhere, anyway they want and us CDs on this forum have no say on how others can dress, or the day will come when others will tell you how to dress and try to totally stop your dressing as a woman.

This forum never fails to amaze me.

[Bonnie D]

I agree, Amelie. It is what the young have been saying and doing for centuries. However, as they get older they begin to slowly conform. Fathers tell their sons and mothers tell their daughters what is and is not appropriate to wear and how to act dependant upon each situation. Rebellion is usually the reaction and is perfectly normal. That is how change is made but change is always slow.

There are different ways to dress depending on what you are doing and what you want. If you are out shopping and want to be noticed and maybe even hit on then dress provocatively and enjoy. If anyone complains about how you are dressed don't get upset about it because it is perfectly natural of them, maybe not right but natural. Just don't take it seriously and learn to ignore the looks. As I said the young do it all the time.

I've only been out once and it was out to a couple of clubs, I was wearing a short skirt and 5" heels and felt so good and young. If I was hit on and wasn't interested then I say "no, but thank you." I can't be upset because some man wants to have sex with me, what did I expect, just be polite about it. Of course if I was interested then great.

It would be good if people weren't so concerned about what everybody wore and when. If you don't like what someone else is wearing then ignore them and if you do like what they're wearing then say so. The world would be a nicer place.

Bonnie

[KathrynW]

I agree it is worth helping others be all they can be, but the idea of censorship worries me ...... because who is to be the arbiter of what is or is not tasteful or acceptable?
How could a grown man dressed as a little girl be even remotely considered tasteful or acceptable? Yes, it's a free country, and people can do whatever they want...but they must also be prepared to face the consequences of their actions. Common sense will tell anyone that.

Why be ashamed of what we are, men who dress as women, and sadly if women are accepted dressed that way, why not men?
Ah yes...the age old argument...
It's a shame society in general doesn't see it this way, huh? ;)

The more the public see transvestites every day, the more normal and accepted it becomes. Arguably it is those who hide their original gender who may be doing the TG community a greater diservice
Oh pleaseeee.... Let's review this term "TG Community". Is this an imaginary "community" which doesn't really exist? Or only exists in certain places? Or exists only in the minds of some people? Why does this "community" do for anyone? And why does anyone "owe" this imaginary "community" anything?

It is nobody's business on how I dress. I don't dress so that I can blend in at the malls, I could do this while dressed as a man. I dress outrageously so that I can be seen and I don't dress like a shopping mall woman. I am more like a drag queen than a shopping mall type CD. And who would be the judge of what is appropriate style of dress, would it be the members here, would it be the Mods, who would be the judge of what is the right and wrong clothes to wear. I wouldn't want anyone on this forum to be a judge of clothes in any way.
Well, I've always heard "attitude is everything" in regards to cd-ing, and I can see that you have one, so I guess it's working for you, huh? ;) And you live where? NYC? Can you even imagine that things might be drastically different in other parts of the country?

Everyone should be able to dress anywhere, anyway they want and us CDs on this forum have no say on how others can dress, or the day will come when others will tell you how to dress and try to totally stop your dressing as a woman.This forum never fails to amaze me
Interesting...I think you just proved my earlier point that a "TG Community" is non-existent. :doh:

[Sophia Rearen]

Amelie,
Points well taken. I admire how you except yourself for who you are, and you like to express yourself accordingly. Your right, no one should be judgemental. In the example I gave earlier, the little girl, may have been the nicest person in the world. And it's my fault for not talking to her. I certainly don't judge people for what they wear. That would be highly hypocritical of me to do so. I don't judge gothers, punkers, preppies or whatever by the clothes they wear. But lets face it, most people do. And if that's what your into then fine. If you want to make a statement, feel free to do so. Thank goodness for free societies. Notice I did'nt say free and open societies. We crossdresser's are still living in a mostly closed society. As was mentioned in an earlier reply, it may be more difficult to cd depending on one's location.

I would, however, like to respectfully disagree with you. While it may not be up to us to have society likeus, I believe that it is up to us to have society accept us. And for society to accept us, we must first accept ourselves for who we are. You, for one, have done a marvelous job of self-acceptance. However, it's difficult for most people to look deep inside themselves and admit who they really are. You and I are the lucky ones. As mentioned in My Husband Betty, Socrates said, "an unexamined life isn't worth living". You have examined your life and are living it, and I appreciate that. But, how many can say that? How many have accepted themselves by saying to themselves and at least one other person, "I am a CD", "I am transgendered", or any other label you would like to put on yourself. Just look at the number of guests to the number of members online here in this forum. The guests typically outnumber the members. Using myself as an example, I lurked about here and other places on the net on my road to self acceptance before I was able to say, "I am a crossdresser".

Now, if it's so hard for most people to accept themselves for who they are, then how do we expect the general public or society to accept us? It is my feelings and beliefs that, that is what is needed. I can and have gone out both day and night. To cd only events and to regular places. How many others here and elsewhere can say that? What's the reason why they don't go out? Is it fear of being made fun of, fear of being a victim of a hate crime, non acceptance, or you name it, there a hundreds of reasons.

My point and I think the point of this forum is that we are cders and I think that most of us would rather be out of the closet than in. So, we are all here to help each other. And no greater example of that is the GG's that are members here. It is they who make this forum special. They are our model of what we want society to be. Could you imagine a society of people such as they? It would be bliss. Then, when we have that point, let the expressionism fly. Until then, I believe in order to get others out of the closet the public's perception of us has to change. And, one of my points in the original thread was get out there. If there was a mass of cd's portraying themselves as good people then perception would change and more girls would go out for lack of fear or whatever. So I'm basically asking for a movement. If 95% of the girls were to go out and "fit in" and 5% were DQ's or such then the acceptance will happen If 95% were DQ's and 5% trying to fit in then, I'm sorry, I don't see acceptance occuring and most girls staying locked in the closet. I'm sorry, that's just how society is.

There are alot of people that are not acceptive of us because of ignorance. They don't know any better. Do we see ourselves being portrayed much in a positive light? Hardly, we are typically portrayed and perceived negatively. I loved the Silence of the Lambs, but hated how the serial killer had to be the crossdresser. Unfortunately, we are dealing with perception and if that is an example of societies perception, then I believe it is up to us to change it.
Warm Regards,

[Darlena]

To my hairy drag queenesque sisters : I just want to say that I am more impressed by those who have some decorum.Spare me the sight of your stuff dangling out from that micro mini. I'd like to put out a bit of a challenge to whoever and try to look convincing. I, myself find that a bit of a turn on. I just dread the horrifying image of some poor senior citizen writhing in cardiactic agony on some sidewalk somewhere because they were not quite prepared for the image that has been thrust upon them. PLEASE...give a damn and make their acceptance of us GIRLS a bit more pleasant than Girlzilla on steroids.Nonetheless, Darlena is here for you. And I do appreciate this opportunity to express my opinion on the matter.Love & kisses:doll:

[Tiffany Tuesday]

[QUOTE=KathrynW]How could a grown man dressed as a little girl be even remotely considered tasteful or acceptable? Yes, it's a free country, and people can do whatever they want...but they must also be prepared to face the consequences of their actions. Common sense will tell anyone that.

Dear Kathryn,

first off hon, please, it is a discussion not an argument, okay babe? But in the above point you are wrong. There is an artist, a potter, called Grayson Perry who was last year's Turner prize winner. Whilst dressed as a little girl in public carrying his dolly, he has made documentaries, done TV interviews, collected his award in front of the world's media, gone as an honoured guest to art events travelling all over the world and yes he has been accepted. I equally would accept he may be an exception and not the rule. If you care to do a Google on Grayson, you'll see the absolute truth of what i say. I also happen to know him, and can confirm that i refused to take part in his documentary as i felt it potentially an exploitation, but not by him but by the producers. He is totally sincere and innocent in his mode of attire and reasoning. Personally i find his dresses a bit frumpy, i'd prefer much cuter ones.:)

Ah yes...the age old argument...
It's a shame society in general doesn't see it this way, huh? ;)

Just as they did not accept Ms Bloomer too, when she and her girlfriends first started to wear trousers ... but she and women like Emily Pankhurst (the suffragette) had the courage to face similar prejudice against females wearing what they please and doing what previously was considered male attire and activities!

Oh pleaseeee.... Let's review this term "TG Community". Is this an imaginary "community" which doesn't really exist? Or only exists in certain places? Or exists only in the minds of some people? Why does this "community" do for anyone? And why does anyone "owe" this imaginary "community" anything?

It most certainly exists .. check out Sparkle, Manchester, UK 2005 (to promote the trans lifestyle) ; Rose's Boat Party 2004; Richard O'Briens Transfandango ( Rocky Horror man's trans charity event for sick children); Miss Trans World; most any Gay Pride mardi gras anywhere, the group is now alled LGBT (ie lesbian gay bi and trans) ; Southern Belles in Atlanta etc etc .. and innumerable out and proud TG groups around the world.

Kathyrn, things are changing, tgirls are working to change it, but not by advocating censorship of our attire or by cowardly buckling to the tyranny of tradition, but through refusing to be ashamed of what we are and by going out and daring to wear that which society would deny us, female clothes.

Honey, please check out the facts i present, it is not my intention to argue, merely to inform on what i have experienced in reality
Hugz x

[Sophia Rearen]

Darlena,
Funny stuff. I love the titles of your posts. I find that the hardest part of posting. So therefor, I usually dont.
Where is our update on last nights outing?

[Sophia Rearen]

Girls,
I walk the walk, talk the talk. Just so you all know, I just read my original post and my most recent long post to my wife. While she didn't exactly like what I was talking about, she did like what I and Amelie had to say. Thank goodness for this forum. Moving forward one step at a time.

[Darlena]

And you too Tiffany. I went on a 2 mi. walk last night and it was pretty uneventful. Mainly I just froze. I mean it was so cold that the ornaments nearly fell from my tree (if you know what I mean). Thank goodness for pantyhose! I can envision a time in the not too distant future when such outtings will become pretty much routine and expected of us ladies. And I hope that's a good thing. Any thoughts on that aspect you girls out there? Love & (BRRRR!) kisses, Darlena

[Tiffany Tuesday]

And you too Tiffany. I went on a 2 mi. walk last night and it was pretty uneventful. Mainly I just froze. I mean it was so cold that the ornaments nearly fell from my tree (if you know what I mean). Thank goodness for pantyhose! I can envision a time in the not too distant future when such outtings will become pretty much routine and expected of us ladies. And I hope that's a good thing. Any thoughts on that aspect you girls out there? Love & (BRRRR!) kisses, Darlena

Yes Darlena darling,
with the onset of winter and you strutting your fabulous femme in frozen parts i'm concerned you'll get your p-p-parts f-f-frozen ... soooo my hot tip (tee hee and your cold one) is when you find it cold out, then tuck it back in :D
Hugzzz

[KathrynW]

first off hon, please, it is a discussion not an argument, okay babe? But in the above point you are wrong
No, I’m NOT wrong. I disagree with you - we have different opinions. There IS a big difference between that and saying someone is WRONG.

There is an artist, a potter, called Grayson Perry who was last year's Turner prize winner.
Sorry, but I’ve never heard of this individual.

things are changing, tgirls are working to change it, but not by advocating censorship of our attire or by cowardly buckling to the tyranny of tradition, but through refusing to be ashamed of what we are and by going out and daring to wear that which society would deny us, female clothes.
I disagree with you 100%. Some grown man dressing as a little girl in public is going to do absolutely NOTHING to further anyone’s cause. All it *will do* is confirm exactly what most of society thinks anyway...all CD’s are freaks and/or perverts, or even worse - mentally disturbed. Sorry for the reality check, but for the most part, that’s pretty accurate.

Honey, please check out the facts i present, it is not my intention to argue, merely to inform on what i have experienced in reality
ummmm....don’t call me “honey”. And, it’s not really my intent to argue either, but I strongly disagree with just about everything you’ve said.

[Stephanie Brooks]

I have lost count of how many times I've started a response to this thread. :p Add one more to the count.

Sophia, thank you for this thread! I think it's an important one, and I think the concerns voiced by all are important.

We ARE a community, whether some of you accept it or not. Mostly we're a reviled community in the public eye. Personally I want to change that.

Yes, some of us go out. I do. Mostly my times out as Stephanie are relatively rare occasions, hence my writings of them. When I'm out, I work to pass, mostly for safety, but partly for just being the same person I am in drab. Whether you see me in a dress or tie (?! :eek: ), what's inside isn't terribly different.

I recently went to a club in DC in drab. A friend invited me. I can only imagine the annual membership fee (in the 4 to 5 figure range I'm sure). It isn't exactly my scene. Yet I fit into the place for an evening. It was fun! I doubt few would have guessed I really wasn't one of them. I'm a technoid, and these were politicians and business people. I passed.

We're transgendered. I'd guess we really only represent in the 1 to 2 percent range of the population. I know I've seen figures much higher, but I doubt them. That said, 98% of the population isn't TG.

In the last year, this place has changed alot. It's grown up without - I believe - outgrowing its membership. We've learned how to act as TG folks around those who are not themselves transgendered - the GGs, the women who are a part of these forums and a part of this community. I'd like to think that we can extend that experience outward. Does that mean we have to change, and that we can't be different?

In this place we've become more approachable, and we've learned how to act around others. Sometimes we need to act better towards each other, but mostly I think we do okay. I think we can do better online, and we can certainly do better out in public.

Ultimately any change must begin with each of us as individuals. When I go out, I act and present as a lady. I'd like to think that when someone reads me they'll think, "Hey, she's cool!" rather than, "What a jerk!" I want to be able to function with the other 98% of the population as Stephanie.

It takes lots of positives for us to be seen as being okay, but a few scattered negatives to be seen as being not okay.

[Toyah]

Sorry to put a downer on this but it aint ever going to happen as far as I am concerned.There is no way where I live that it will be accepted and even if it was I am really not interested in dressing down.

[susandrea]

Sorry to put a downer on this but it aint ever going to happen as far as I am concerned.There is no way where I live that it will be accepted and even if it was I am really not interested in dressing down.

The Earth is flat.

The Earth is the center on the Universe.

In 1899, then Patent Commissioner, Charles H. Duell reportedly announced that "everything that can be invented has been invented." Obviously, he is wrong.

Blacks, Indians, and women will never be allowed to vote, never mind participate in government.

Man will never fly.

Gay people? What does that mean?

Man will never land on the moon.

The list goes on.....

:D

[Phoebe Reece]

It's interesting to note that the naysayers on this issue are people that strike me as being ashamed of their need to crossdress. They let their own lack of self-acceptance translate into being a world-wide lack of acceptance by everyone who isn't a crossdresser. They prefer to stay in the closet and complain rather than come out and do something positive. The ones who are getting out and confronting the world mostly report a more positive attitude about crossdressing by the ordinary people they encounter.

[HaleyPink2000]

Well I haveto say this forum is the closest thing to a comunity you will ever find on the web.

Haley:)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I guess I've got my feet firmly on both sides of this debate.

Look, it's not a new issue, lots of other groups have had the same debate about whether one should be a "model minority."

OTOH, it's probably even more of a difficult issue for us because of the variety of ways people CD/TG/TS (insert label here). And I'm not going to be the one to say there's a "right" way to do it.

OTOH, when you go out in public, people are going to see not only you, but also the group of people they think you represent. (Of course, one of the paradoxes is that those who blend in successfully never catch society's attention, which makes those who dress to stand out, stand out all the more.) For what it's worth, most lay people probably assume we're drably-dressed drag queens -- since they generally assume crossdressed man = homosexual = drag queen.

But on their own at a certain level of standing out, I think people tend to see it more as simply being outrageous or eccentric. I know someone who, as she says, tries to live the life of stereotypical 1950s TV housewife -- big poodle skirt, etc. She claims to not have problems with people and I suspect she's right because her appearance is so eccentric she's perceived as "out there" rather than "gender bender." Likewise, drag queens are typically so far over the top, everyone knows it's an act.

A lot depends on context too. Grayson Perry is an artist and rightly or wrongly artists are given license to be "different." Likewise, going out in hooker-wear during Gay Pride week is a bit different than at other times.

The difficulty comes when you put everyone in the same room. Would I be reluctant to share a table with Sophia's Little Girl? Yes I would. (It's probably the age regression that bothers me.) Would I be uncomfortable with a drag queen? Probably not. Have I been uncomfortable with other CDs who wore clubwear to a nice restaurant? Yes, but probably not any more uncomfortable than if I'd been with a 50-60ish GG who was also trying to look 21 in a too tight, too short dress. Have I been uncomfortable with CDs who's presentation skills are very poor. Yes, but I also feel sympathy toward them. Are my reactions inconsistent? Yes they are.

I suppose the best we can do is acknowledge the variety that exists -- whether you're trying to blend in or whether you're dressing for attention. In other words, say "this is what I'm like, but others do things differently." Again, if you look at other minority groups trying to get society's respect there's almost always some who are considered "respectable" and others who are considered "on the fringe" -- whether that's because of behavior, politics, etc. And there's frequently nasty in-fighting over who's the more "authentic" of the two, when really the fight should be against those who'd put them down.

I do think society attitudes are changing -- but like other minority groups we've got to go out there and earn that respect, regardless of how you're dressed.

[Sophia Rearen]

Marlena,
As usual, well written and thought provoking.

[Sophia Rearen]

I suppose the best we can do is acknowledge the variety that exists -- whether you're trying to blend in or whether you're dressing for attention. In other words, say "this is what I'm like, but others do things differently." Again, if you look at other minority groups trying to get society's respect there's almost always some who are considered "respectable" and others who are considered "on the fringe" -- whether that's because of behavior, politics, etc. And there's frequently nasty in-fighting over who's the more "authentic" of the two, when really the fight should be against those who'd put them down.

I do think society attitudes are changing -- but like other minority groups we've got to go out there and earn that respect, regardless of how you're dressed.

Marlena,
Yes, I would like society's respect. And, I believe that we will get it with the more "respectable" presenters. The "on the fringers" are not taken seriously. As you said, they get the "out there" statement and they can pull it off because they are considered eccentric. Lets compare and contrast two notables. Dennis Rodman and Ru Paul
So, how do we fight with the ones that put them down?

[KathrynW]

I know someone who, as she says, tries to live the life of stereotypical 1950s TV housewife -- big poodle skirt, etc. She claims to not have problems with people and I suspect she's right because her appearance is so eccentric she's perceived as "out there" rather than "gender bender."
You're serious? ;)

[Marla GG]

So the question is, when crossdressers go out in public, should they feel obligated to dress in a conservative way so that other crossdressers who dress conservatively won't be embarrassed to share the transgender label with them?

Increasing public awareness and acceptance of our lifestyle is very important to me, and I agree that getting out there is a crucial part of the equation. I live in a large metropolitan area, and I have never once seen a crossdresser in public except in the few square blocks that represent the "gay area" of town. How can the public learn to understand and tolerate something they never see? I would love to see more crossdressers go out in WHATEVER they want to wear, provided they aren't violating any public decency laws or risking their own safety, than have them stay hidden in the closet.

To me, being an ambassador for our community means educating the public and helping them to overcome their fear of the unknown. The truth is that not all crossdressers have the same reasons for dressing, and not all desire to present themselves in the same way. For some it's about blending in and passing, but for others it's about having the freedom to openly wear what best expresses their own self-image. I doubt that CDs who prefer the outrageous glam look, or the goth look, or the androgynous look, or the guy-in-a-skirt look, or even the little girl look, will be helped by a public image campaign portraying crossdressers as nice ladies in conservative wigs and sensible shoes. I think the only way to gain acceptance for all of us is to expose the public to the true diversity of our community and let people see who we really are.

Some of you may have seen pictures of me going out with my spouse Angel en femme, dressed to blend in. But Angel also goes out wearing feminine clothing, jewelry, and makeup in guy mode, which admittedly has raised a few eyebrows on occasion. I encourage Angel to wear what he wants, conduct himself with dignity, and let people see that he is no threat to them. That, in my opinion, is a better approach than trying to promote a homogeneous image of what a crossdresser is.

[BeckyAnderson]

Hello everyone,

I'm new here but thought that I would add in my two cents worth about changing the public's perception of crossdressers.

I have been crossdressing for over 50 years. Secretly, silently, always in stealth mode because of my perception of what the public would think of a man dressed as a woman. My perception of what the public would think came from listening and watching the reactions of other's around me to crossdressing. As it turned out, (after all these years) it was only the reactions of those closest to me and not those more distant. Since it didn't touch those more distant they had their chuckle but they really didn't care. When I started dressing times were much different than today. Back then you had a nearly 100% chance of losing everything that you held dear if someone were to find out (girlfriend, wife, family, job, etc.). And there was no information available to me to learn about why I had this innate need to dress in woman's clothes. The term crossdresser never existed, you were a transvestite! Hated by the public and treated as a sick, perverted individual almost completely shunned by everyone. There were a few exceptions but they were rare indeed.

Crossdressing existed then as it does now but it took the advent of the Internet for things to begin to change. Those who had a desire to dress in woman's clothes began to realize that they were not alone. As crossdressers began to find other crossdressers, as well as information about "this condition", they began traveling down a path towards self-acceptance. They would meet as small groups and those daring enough would venture out into the public. Crossdressing was removed as a psychological condition needing a cure and gradually laws changed.

Even with the Internet I had not been able to come to terms with my need to dress. That didn't happen until my wife unexpectedly came home one day 2 1/2 years ago and caught me dressed. From my perception of crossdressing I was scared to death that I was about to lose everything I held dear. If I could have died at that very point in time I would have chosen that. She yelled, cried and tried to strike me. I had no choice, I was out!

It was at that point in time that I slowly began to realize that this need I had was not a sickness but a part of me that I had no control over and I began my journey down the path of self acceptance. Luckily and thankfully for me my journey was a short one.

I began to venture out....At first, I joined a support group. Going to that first meeting was a bit traumatic as it was the first time in my life that I had ever come face to face with another crossdresser. That was just a little over a year ago. Since then I have grown and matured so much as a crossdresser and am very proud of whom I am. Those first steps out of my closet were a major milestone in my life. I began to see (from the motel staff from where our meetings were held) that my impressions of what the public thought of crossdressers was wrong. From that night until now I have pushed myself to go further and further. I have been to clubs (gay and straight), restaurants, dinners, movies, malls, casinos and shops all around two states.

Many times I go alone. But each and every time I venture out I feel I'm reaching out and touching society, educating by my presence there. I always dress accordingly. If I go to a mall or movie it's usually a business suit, business casual or casual. For a nice restaurant or a social I would wear a business suit, dress or gown. But I always present a well groomed feminine image. Do I look like a man in a dress? Yes. Do I get clocked? Sure. Do I worry about it? No. I have found that a simple smile or hello will warm the coldest heart. The important issue for me is that I am showing the public that, while I am a "man in a dress", I (and, in the bigger picture, we as crossdressers) are real people with real feelings and we are not to be feared. Those who fear owe that fear to lack of exposure to us and lack of knowledge of what or who we are. Each time we venture out we are educating, we are one more step closer to acceptance by the general public.

Each of us can dress as we please but how we project that presentation can either bring us a step closer to the general public's acceptance or add to their fear. The choice is ours, we should make it wisely.

Hugs,
Becky

[susandrea]

The topic is important. It's also vital to discuss it in a gentle way and communicate with each other so that everyone can project an image they can be proud of, without fear from anyone.

I am pretty sure that the more outrageous drag queens are out there in greater force than their crossdressing cousins. Why, I can't answer. But they do draw attention and manage to deal with it fairly well for the most part. Most of the ones I've encountered have a sense of humor about the whole thing that is infectious, and they are usually willing to discuss it a bit in a civilized way that deflects hostility. They certainly have courage. If acceptance by society concerning men in drag goes by "survival of the strongest", DQs are a step ahead.

I bring up Sissy Goodwin, again. Sissy has gone en femme since the seventies, but makes no effort to "blend in", and really has little hope of passing. And yes, he's been attacked. It didn't stop him, though.

If you start out saying that some CDs dress in an unacceptable manner, where does that stop? Would Sissy Goodwin eventually be disdained by fellow CDs because he admits he can't possibly pass as a woman?

If this is a man who cannot make it in his appearance as a woman, he may be engaging in a little defensive behavior -- by letting the world see that `I am really a veteran and a guy, and I really have nothing to be ashamed of.' "
-- Sissy Goodwin
Any time any group throughout history wants to make a major change, they have to believe that what they want is right, and right for everyone in their group. Yes, they have to be responsible, hopefully, and do it in a peaceful manner, but if anyone thinks that by simply looking good there will be any major breakthroughs you will be in for a long wait. Many, many people are so ignorant about the entire subject they feel disdain for even the most convincing. You see, it's the idea of it at ALL they don't care for, not who can dress well or not. If you're passing, it doesn't mean you've been accepted, necessarily, just that you weren't detected. If CDs start looking down on DQs and the huge grey area in-between, will they then splinter off into "passable" and "unpassable", "out", "not out", and "out there"? And where do transexuals fit in, then? If you don't accept each other, who else will?

CDs, DQs and TSs make the best impression on society if they treat curious questions with gentleness and if they project confidence in themselves no matter what they look like. Keep your manner polite and dignified, and the rest will follow. If anyone objects simply because of your appearance, then it's their problem, not yours. If you go to any mall in this country, 80% of the people in it will look pretty shabby. And definitly overweight. They are hardly in any position at all to criticize anyone!

Gays go through the exact same thing, being ashamed of those who are flamboyant or promiscuous, and they have a point. But it's an impossible thing to police, isn't it? And isn't it ultimately hypocritical as well? Better to think "All for one and one for all" because there will be more force behind the cause.

You know, it's a very girlie thing to examine other girls and find fault. I bought a pair of pants the other day and showed them to my female co-workers. I got thumbs down by all! (and yes, I took them back because they really did look crappy-- what was I thinking???). And they never hold back to let one another know if one amonst us is having a bad hair day or dressed in the dark that morning. I've done it myself. Fashion micro-mangement! It's hard to resist when you know you have better taste than the people around you. :D

I'l shut up now. My dryer is beeping, anyway!

:sb:

[Sophia Rearen]

I'm not suggesting conservative attire. When I hear that C word, I get the picture of an wool ankle length skirt and buttoned to neck plain white blouse. My dressing analogy would be more like, if you were a parent of a teenage girl, at what point would you tell her that her choice in clothing is not appropriate? Most people, and of course this depends on your locale would draw the line somewhere. I know as a parent that discussion is going on constantly where I live. People talk. And I live in an area with a considerable alternative lifestyle people and middle to upper classes. These are my neighbors. The schools have guidelines and most parents have their own. So, if we were to push the envelope beyond them, could this be good for cder? That is the question.
Marlena made some good points about sitting with certain girls. If people are reluctant to talk to people because of how they look, and they most certainly are, then how are people to learn about us?
I'd like to hear from some girls that have not been out. What would have to take place in society's eyes that would enable them to take their first steps out?

[Sophia Rearen]

Becky,
Bravo. For a newbie, you bring it on. Well done. Nice having you here.

[Lauren_T]

Becky, I must say the insights in your post there are acute, succinct and unimpeachable.:^5:

[kneehighs]

I think we are battling power hierarchies as well.

I actually have a theory on why society is constrained by traditional gender boundaries. For the most part, we live in a male dominated society. Recent U.N. studies have revealed that men control 95% of the world's economic resources. So for purposes of this theory I'll define men as the "in power group," and women as the "out of power group."

It is usually traditionally acceptable for any "out of power" group to aspire to the ranks of the "in power group." Upward mobility is generally admirable and respected, irregardless of the country or venue being looked at. Just look at the American word "tomboy." It's cultural acceptance symbolizes societies acceptance of the "out of power group" aspiring to the "in power groups" status.

And then look at the word "sissy." Its stigma symbolizes societies rejection of the "in power group" identifying with the "out of power group." Upward mobility is generally acceptable, but downward assimilation is generally rejected--especially in the context of a male dominated society.

[uknowhoo]

Stephanie, Marlena, Susandrea, Becky, Haley, Marla, and especially Sophia... thank you all so much for your thoughtful contributions to this thread. This is the best page full of posts I've read in a very long time.

To me, this issue is a bit like the flag burning debate (here in the U.S.). The flag represents many liberties, chief among them freedom of speech. Burning a flag is quite a statement indeed.

We are lucky enough to live in a country where we can express ourselves freely. Do I want to be able to express myself freely as a crossdresser? Of course I do. Do I think the several examples of "over the top" expression referenced are going to advance our cause? Most likely not. Do I think being good ambassadors by being good people will advance our cause? Most asssuredly, and I applaud such efforts.

That said, the idea of one guy in a dress (who just a minute before was decrying the social inequities we suffer) pointing his very well-manicured finger to condemn a fellow CDer whom he considers "over the top" strikes me as not just hypocracy, but ridiculous.

A key point many seem to miss is we are legally permitted to do what we do (short of indecent exposure or disturbing the peace). There's nothing legally stopping any one of us from getting all ****tied up and walkin down the street with a sign on our chest reading "I am a proud crossdresser." The only reason we don't is our own (albeit justified) fear of non-acceptance. So some of us stay in the closet, some of us confide in just a very few close friends, others get out there a bit, others are way out there. And you know what? It's all good, because the more progress we all make toward accepting ourselves and others, the more our cause is advanced.

I just heard the ramble warning go off. I'll shut up now. Thanks to those of you who read this far. **curtsey** Hugs, Tammi :D

[susiej]

Ladies,

Wow, what a fascinating thread! I get busy and don't log in for a day or so, and I've missed so much!

You are the poster-girls for diversity for the 21st century. Some day, people will look back at those of you who had the nerve and ability to go out, and changed the world as a result, and say, "my God, it must have taken so much nerve to do what they did!".

When that happens, a whole class of people will have been liberated. That class will include conservatives who would never dream of appearing in public without the proper make-up and hairstyle, hosery and shoes, to those who stick their ****ty femininity directly in your face, and if you don't like it, tough. Both of these are outliers in our population, and the majority of us are in the middle somewhere.

Internally, we are a diverse crowd. Just look at the avatars on this thread. Diversity, even in diversity, is a good thing.

I actually believe that even the most outrageous of us is doing her own service to the "cause", because the rest of the world will find us more human, and will be able to understand us more, when they realize we come in many flavors, just like them. Dame Edna, Eddie Izzard, Angel in "Rent", and so on -- all provide John Q. Public with a universe in which to put you and me, when they see us in our sensible skirt, blouse and jacket, at the mall.

This is how it was for the gays. Recall that in the early days of gays coming out of the closet, some of them became, please excuse the expression, flaming queers, just to make a point. They showed the heterosexual world what the "extreme case" was like. They certainly took a little getting used to, but in contrast, we came to realize that in comparison the "normal" gay or lesbian is really not all that different from the rest of us. Now, of course, we have "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" on TV.

What an elegant, wonderful concept: the "normal" homosexual, or the "normal" crossdresser!

So, I don't think our movement is going to be seriously damaged by girls who like to push the edge. If we are going to succeed, it's got to be bigger than that. The, um, straightdressing world has to see us as a diverse, vibrant group, who have our kooks and our geeks, just like them.

Hugs,
Susie

[Stelli]

Was the history wrong? Or different? Any idea to humans pass through phases until the most ignorant form opinion. We can do what we can do, including playing politics on gender issues apart of making dressing statement in public. The fact is that one extraordinary case at extraordinary place with extraordinary circumstance will influence the opinion of the mass. It takes a lot of energy to make move to the mass. Do you really think that all our 2% would move the mass? I do not believe so. We humans do things in quantum leaps after a lot of brewing. Extraordinary people change the history. Smaller mass will only gravitate to the larger in the spite of stubbornes of certain particles here and there.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I have found that a simple smile or hello will warm the coldest heart. The important issue for me is that I am showing the public that, while I am a "man in a dress", I (and, in the bigger picture, we as crossdressers) are real people with real feelings and we are not to be feared. Those who fear owe that fear to lack of exposure to us and lack of knowledge of what or who we are. Each time we venture out we are educating, we are one more step closer to acceptance by the general public.

Exactly.


Gays go through the exact same thing, being ashamed of those who are flamboyant or promiscuous, and they have a point. But it's an impossible thing to police, isn't it? And isn't it ultimately hypocritical as well? Better to think "All for one and one for all" because there will be more force behind the cause.

The analogy with gays is a good one because the flashpoints are similar: gender presentation and sexuality. Believe me, there are huge debates among activists in the gay community about who are the "authentic" gays. For example, some think (most of) the Queer Eye guys are too straight-acting to qualify.

I just finished reading Virginia Prince's biography (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0974560006/qid=1134460388/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-3279323-4056930?n=507846&s=books&v=glance) and the contradictions between her private life and public positions encapsulate the issues we're talking about now. To make a long story short, while Prince was arguing the line that CDing had nothing, nothing, to do with sex and was all about the "girl within," and that CDs never transitioned (all arguments that Tri-Ess and other CD organizations have repeated to this day), Prince has lived full-time as a woman for about a third of her life, actively dated men (being attractive to men was quite important to her) and her enjoyment of the sexual aspects of crossdressing are probably why she herself didn't transition and why she's so vehemently against SRS.

I don't mean to pick on Prince, but the disconnect between the rhetoric and the reality that's often observed doesn't help our cause. Maybe as not with the general public, but definitely with SOs, who as Helen Boyd points out in "My Husband Betty," often pick up on the less-than-truthful rhetoric.

So better to acknowledge the variety of the behavior and attitudes and explain it on our terms rather than let others define us. Admittedly, sometimes this isn't comfortable.

BTW Kathryn, yes Donna June (named after Donna Reed and June Cleaver) is a real person http://profiles.yahoo.com/donnajune1950

[Helana]

Well I am definitely on the side of free expression as that is what CDing is all about so it is hypocritical of us to complain of others who want to be ****ty etc as damaging to our cause. It is not their clothes which damage us but the prejudices of society.

To me though the debate seems to be irrelevant as society never loves anything which is outside the "norm", it merely changes the rules and accepts your right to exist. How many of the "general public" do you see interacting with punks, goths, body transformists etc? If you had to ask directions and your choice was a guy with 20 piercings in his face and a "normal" guy, which one would you pick? Come to think of it, for the CDers venturing out, just how much interaction is there with the general public? Are you doing the groceries and chatting gossip with the neighbors en femme or do you just keep to yourself?

Society already accepts crossdressers! Even when we are clocked, 99.99% of the time nothing happens, people accept our need to express ourselves even if they are making incorrect assumptions about what we are. More and more legislation is being enacted to protect our civil and employment rights. Are we being arrested for dressing in a skirt in public anymore?

It is true the gender and sexuality makup of our habit makes our cause a bit more charged than others but in truth we are rapidly approaching the same level of acceptance as most other minority groups have reached in society. The difference is that most of us are too scared to venture out to test the waters.

This debate closely matches the issue of acceptance with our SOs. There is little gratification in being allowed by our SO to dress if we know she hates it. We want our SOs to love us as well. Similarly we are not content that society already accepts us, we want society to love us for being “normal” i.e. we want to be let back into the comforting embrace of mainstream society.

That is not going to happen because as a minority we will always have prejudiced people wanting to harm us. We can however gain a greater degree of understanding among the general population and shift crossdressing from a perversion to an eccentric lifestyle. So long as we act normally in whatever dress we are in, people who are not close-minded will see past our image and recognize us as just another human being.

We will never get 100% acceptance because we are not “normal”. Just accept this and celebrate the fact that we can experience life in a way that other “normal” people can never comprehend. The greatest barrier is not society but our own minds. Self acceptance will free us, not society.

[Darlena]

If I can't call you"Honey" can I call you "Homey"? What is your anal retentive handle then? I must qualify your perception of T-gender & otherwise. What do you go out in drag as.., I just don't get your drift here. Could you please clarify your position here. Yours sincerely, Darlena

[Tamara Croft]

I've not read all the posts here, but I will ;) Isn't the point of being accepted by society, to accept everyone else and the way they like to dress or done a beard too? If you have a beard, why should you shave it off just because you want to wear a dress? You want acceptance, you should therefore accept that others are different too. Woman dress ****ty all the time, why can't a guy dress ****ty too? Why does this give transgendered people a bad name? Is there now some rule you have to follow, do you have to dress a certain way now to fit in? Puh-lease, think about what you are saying, if you can't accept someone because they have dressed in a little girls dress, or dressed ****ty or even doned a beard, then why should society accept you? I think that's just a tad hypercritical if you ask me.

[Amelie]

I've not read all the posts here, but I will ;) Isn't the point of being accepted by society, to accept everyone else and the way they like to dress or done a beard too? If you have a beard, why should you shave it off just because you want to wear a dress? You want acceptance, you should therefore accept that others are different too. Woman dress ****ty all the time, why can't a guy dress ****ty too? Why does this give transgendered people a bad name? Is there now some rule you have to follow, do you have to dress a certain way now to fit in? Puh-lease, think about what you are saying, if you can't accept someone because they have dressed in a little girls dress, or dressed ****ty or even doned a beard, then why should society accept you? I think that's just a tad hypercritical if you ask me.


I had typed out a long and boring post, then I read yours Tamara and you said it all in less words. So I deleted my post and I must agree 100% with yours Tamara.
Well said.

[Raychel]

Well said Tamara GG:yrtw:

After all it is the person on the inside that counts. It doesn't really matter how a person looks or dresses.

[Sophia Rearen]

Well I am definitely on the side of free expression as that is what CDing is all about so it is hypocritical of us to complain of others who want to be ****ty etc as damaging to our cause. It is not their clothes which damage us but the prejudices of society.

To me though the debate seems to be irrelevant as society never loves anything which is outside the "norm", it merely changes the rules and accepts your right to exist. How many of the "general public" do you see interacting with punks, goths, body transformists etc? If you had to ask directions and your choice was a guy with 20 piercings in his face and a "normal" guy, which one would you pick? Come to think of it, for the CDers venturing out, just how much interaction is there with the general public? Are you doing the groceries and chatting gossip with the neighbors en femme or do you just keep to yourself?

Society already accepts crossdressers! Even when we are clocked, 99.99% of the time nothing happens, people accept our need to express ourselves even if they are making incorrect assumptions about what we are. More and more legislation is being enacted to protect our civil and employment rights. Are we being arrested for dressing in a skirt in public anymore?

It is true the gender and sexuality makup of our habit makes our cause a bit more charged than others but in truth we are rapidly approaching the same level of acceptance as most other minority groups have reached in society. The difference is that most of us are too scared to venture out to test the waters.

This debate closely matches the issue of acceptance with our SOs. There is little gratification in being allowed by our SO to dress if we know she hates it. We want our SOs to love us as well. Similarly we are not content that society already accepts us, we want society to love us for being “normal” i.e. we want to be let back into the comforting embrace of mainstream society.

That is not going to happen because as a minority we will always have prejudiced people wanting to harm us. We can however gain a greater degree of understanding among the general population and shift crossdressing from a perversion to an eccentric lifestyle. So long as we act normally in whatever dress we are in, people who are not close-minded will see past our image and recognize us as just another human being.

We will never get 100% acceptance because we are not “normal”. Just accept this and celebrate the fact that we can experience life in a way that other “normal” people can never comprehend. The greatest barrier is not society but our own minds. Self acceptance will free us, not society.

Helana,
Well done.

I agree, it's not the clothes that damage us but the prejudices of society. So, if we are not to ask directions from the 20 piercer, then why would we from the "****ty cder" as opposed to a "fitteriner"? I just made a new word there. LOL.

Some society's accept us. I typically don't have a problem when out. It's just as you describe. However, let's not forget the "Day of Rememberance". People are being killed because they are different, and, as I said before because of ignorance.

Are we really rapidly aproaching a level of acceptance? What do you consider rapid? In my original post I asked do we want to wait 10-20 years or 5-10 years? If you were to put a time on it, what would it be? Yes, the difference is most of us are to affraid to venture out to test the waters. That was one of the main points of this thread. To help other girls get out.

I'm still waiting for the closeted girl to reply to this thread. Honestly, from the gut, from the heart, what would have to take place in the eyes of society for you to feel comfortable to venture out?

I know more than one girl has a problem with the reaction they are expecting from society. On a personal note, my wife has a problem with how society views me. She's rightfully concerned for my well being. It's a major sticking point in my cding.

Many, many people are close minded. And, those same people are not comfortable with who they are themselves, so how are they going to be comfortable, and thereby, acceptive enough of us, to be able to approach us and find out who and what we really are?

Your last paragraph was a thing of beauty, as are you!

[uknowhoo]

I consider myself very clothes-minded, thank you very much.
Sorry, Sophia, I thought we could use a little comic relief :D Hugs, T

[Stephanie Brooks]

So then one might conclude from the thread that the original premise, that we need to get out more into the public and do so with some decorum, is incorrect.

It would also seem to follow that if we accept each other just as we are, we will subsequently be accepted by the other 98% of society regardless of how we look or act.

Is that correct?

I remember corresponding with someone years ago. The person knew a crossdresser in the LA area who liked guns and would go out "dressed" wearing a beard and mustache. I saw photos of her. Hmmm... I can grow a beard in a week, and Virginia has an open carry law (you can openly carry a gun in VA w/o a permit)... Cool! And all we need to do is have a Big Group Hug and the world will take us for how we are. "Baby are you packin', or are you just happy to see me?"

This certainly opens the possibilities for January's adventure. :thumbsup:

Ain't politics fun?

Aaaah, I'll just be boring Stephanie again in January, going out and trying to function in the world. Someone will notice that something's not quite "right" with me, and may even realize I'm a crossdresser. I *still* hope the person's internal reaction is, "Hey, she's pretty cool!" I also hope that translates to somone having a positive view of the transgendered community, a community that includes all of us.

[Sophia Rearen]

Tammi,
A little comedic break is always much appreciated. I can only be serious for so long. Thanks.

[Sherlyn]

I've been following this thread ...and find alotta disagreements ...then the disagree'ers (hmmmm that a word)..fall back with the agree'ers ...(another)..I think y'all should just make up your minds ... JUST DO IT !!! if you want to go out GO OUT!!! ****ty ...trashy ...granny ..auntie ..etc,, learn to accept that we never really blend in ..we are always noticed and if u can deal with that and accept that yourself then YOUR IN !!! I mean by blending are you wanting the public too think ur a women ..coz as cd's we are not..if cd acceptance is the goal ...then be the CD ...not the blender..why do we all spend lots a cash on our wardrobes ..only too be told ..if you plan on goin out better just put on a sweater and jeans ....to me thats still just trying to hide yourself ..im no expert in going out ..I still have problems with it,,,but I do wear what I feel I look best in .... the things I'm told I should blend in ..WELL !!!! that's just not me .

[Sophia Rearen]

Sherlyn,
So, exactly, why is it that you still have a problem with going out?

[Sherlyn]

I still have problems going out coz I have not accepted myself 100% totatly ...I get doubts in my mind still that theres something wrong with me ..do I make sense bout that ...I mean we all go thru periods of highs and lows ....its learning to control my low periods when I do go out ..and not let them be a PROBLEM .....coz when I'm low that kills my ATTITUDE !!! and attitude when out is the key !!!

[Sophia Rearen]

You're right. We have heard about attitude and its importance many times. So, let's pretend you went out with a low attitude, because deep down inside you may feel that there is something wrong with you. What do you see happening?

[Lilith Moon]

learn to accept that we never really blend in ..we are always noticed and if u can deal with that and accept that yourself then YOUR IN !!! I mean by blending are you wanting the public too think ur a women ..coz as cd's we are not..if cd acceptance is the goal ...then be the CD ...not the blender..why do we all spend lots a cash on our wardrobes ..only too be told ..if you plan on goin out better just put on a sweater and jeans ....to me thats still just trying to hide yourself ..im no expert in going out ..I still have problems with it,,,but I do wear what I feel I look best in .... the things I'm told I should blend in ..WELL !!!! that's just not me .
Sherlyn,
I know this is not what you were getting at, but...

To my eyes, you would not blend in...you would stand out from a crowd as being an especially attractive female...regardless of how you dressed:thumbsup:

[Sherlyn]

You're right. We have heard about attitude and its importance many times. So, let's pretend you went out with a low attitude, because deep down inside you may feel that there is something wrong with you. What do you see happening?
Well Sophie ..I don't see anything happening ..thats just it ...the few times I've gone out with low attitude .I end up just turning the car around and coming home ...let the world around me pass by ..til my mood improves..could be hrs ..could be days . so I can't give a pretend answer coz thats all it would be... and not really be worthwhile.

[BeckyAnderson]

This thread is extremely interesting. It is great to read so many opinions about society's acceptance of crossdressing. I think one point being overlooked (and perhaps we pay too much attention to) just a bit is the closemindedness of some to many people in the world. We talk about this and how we will never be accepted totally. Stop and think about this for a minute. Those same people with closed minds about crossdressing feel much the same about many things in their lives other than our appearance in society. They may not like some minorities, religions, the number of TV commercials and miriad of other things. I think the point is that no one is going to please everyone all the time. We each have to live our lives how we feel we need to. Each and everyone one of us should feel the peace, serenity and happiness that comes with complete self-acceptance. Personally, I don't worry one bit about what others may think of me. I'm like that when in guy or femme mode. We, in this country, live in a melting pot of the world. We have many nationalities and cultures, for the most part, living in harmony with each other. We, as crossdressers, are simply another culture or lifestyle blending into the melting pot. I think that the battle is not with society but within our own minds. Reach self-acceptance and you will win the battle. Venture out and let the world know that you are happy and content with yourself and they will be content to let you live your life your way.

Hugs,
Becky

[Sherlyn]

Exactly Becky !!!!! ..tis why I said I,ve not reached 100% with myself yet....and still get periods of doubt .... getting there tho ....:),,,,more positives happening then negatives for me .....

[Toyah]

I've not read all the posts here, but I will ;) Isn't the point of being accepted by society, to accept everyone else and the way they like to dress or done a beard too? If you have a beard, why should you shave it off just because you want to wear a dress? You want acceptance, you should therefore accept that others are different too. Woman dress ****ty all the time, why can't a guy dress ****ty too? Why does this give transgendered people a bad name? Is there now some rule you have to follow, do you have to dress a certain way now to fit in? Puh-lease, think about what you are saying, if you can't accept someone because they have dressed in a little girls dress, or dressed ****ty or even doned a beard, then why should society accept you? I think that's just a tad hypercritical if you ask me.

Hey here is a first hunny I totally agree, here we are trying to be accepted in society for the way we dress, then our own comunity says you dress my way not yours. WTF is that about, I dont want to go round in flats and sensible skirts and jumpers thank you I really dont want to look like my Granny.
Sheesh I just dont undertand imposing your views on others just coz you dont like their ways, live and let live as long as you dont hurt anyone else.
So Tamara big:thumbsup: lets stop destroying ourselves

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Becky, Tamara and Toyah,

very good points, i totally agree.

Accept who you are first if you expect to be accepted by others. And live and let live.
luvnhugz x

ps i do so hope there is now going to be a proliferation of honey, honey-b, sweetie, sweetheart, darling, dolly, babe, sugar, girlfriend, poppet, princess, candy pants girlish endearments in the 4M ... but no group wet kissing .. we-ll not on a first date ya hear???

Oh and free tinsel tampons for all ... just for the Christmas period :)

[Julie York]

So put simply.....


If you are a CD and UGLY...please stay at home so as not to frighten anyone.

Thank you.

There. See. What's complicated about that?

:D

[JoAnnDallas]

I WAS one of those closet CD that Julie talked about. I can tell you it was THIS forum, all the FIRST OUT postings, and discussions that helped me make up my mind that, "It's now or never", attitude to make my daytime appearence en fem.

There is a lot that goes thru your mind. Will I be notice, will people laugh at me, will people point at me and yell "TRANNY", will my neighbors see me and know who I am, will I be embarrass, is my slip showing, is my makeup on correctly, and etc etc etc. All of these and many more all have to be settled in your mind or pushed away so you don't think about them when you make that first daytime outing.

It the same at doing anything the first time. To some it's easy and they can not understand why it is not easy for you. Others have to get thier nerve up and once they do it, they are fine. Still others chickinout at the last moment. Then there are those that under NO circumstance will they do it.

Me, I the type that will watch others and obtain confidence that others have done it, I can too. Then I then take a deep breath and do it. Either it scares the hell out of me or "It's not so bad, lets do it again". At least I did it once. LOL

[Sophia Rearen]

I think that the battle is not with society but within our own minds. Reach self-acceptance and you will win the battle. Venture out and let the world know that you are happy and content with yourself and they will be content to let you live your life your way.

Hugs,
Becky

I agree, however, right now, isn't it society and its views on us that make girls such as Sherlyn feel not ok about themselves? And, look at Sherlyn, she is one of the most beautiful cd's I've ever seen. Her problem is not passing. Her problem, is finding a big enough stick to beat men away!
Self -acceptance is difficult to achieve. And, I still haven't heard from any closet cd's on this matter.

[Sophia Rearen]

I've not read all the posts here, but I will ;) Isn't the point of being accepted by society, to accept everyone else and the way they like to dress or done a beard too? If you have a beard, why should you shave it off just because you want to wear a dress? You want acceptance, you should therefore accept that others are different too. Woman dress ****ty all the time, why can't a guy dress ****ty too? Why does this give transgendered people a bad name? Is there now some rule you have to follow, do you have to dress a certain way now to fit in? Puh-lease, think about what you are saying, if you can't accept someone because they have dressed in a little girls dress, or dressed ****ty or even doned a beard, then why should society accept you? I think that's just a tad hypercritical if you ask me.

So if women dress ****ty all they time. Does this mean you have? And if you have, how did it make you feel that you were being called a **** in other peoples minds? If you had no problem with that, then you certainly have a high self esteem and I applaud you for that. But, all of the GG's I know wouldn't like to be catagorized as a ****.
It's my feeling that if you have dressed as a **** and knew people were calling you such, and it did not make you feel good, then the same can be said for the hesitant crossdresser. She may have a low self esteem and she may not have reached self-acceptance. And, she may be affraid to face others and what they would think of them. So why then, would they go out?

Now, if Perception were to change, wouldn't it be easier for more girls to get out? And, if we all dressed like ****s, then perception will continue to be negative from the masses.

[Tamara Croft]

Right, try again.... stupid damn laptop mouse :(

Ok, from my point of view, this is how I see things. Transgendered people want to be accepted for who they are right? Yet in this thread, there are some that are saying it's wrong for a guy to wear a girls dress, or dress ****ty. Just because someone dresses a bit ****ty, does NOT make them a **** now does it, it's just a word. I couldn't imagine for the life of me my Tam wearing day to day womens clothes, just isn't her, you would class her in the '****ty' range of transgendered people I'm afraid. But she is still under that transgendered umbrella isn't she, she still wants to be accepted and wear what she likes.

Like I said before, if you can't accept those minority transgendered people that are a bit different from you, how can you expect society to accept you? There are no set rules, there are no signs up saying 'you must wear this because otherwise the rest of us can't be accepted'.

As for myself, I wear what I like, whether it be casual, ****ty, conservative etc and for those that don't like it, or don't accept what I wear, just what do they think they are going to do? make me change the way I dress? No I don't think so. I'm an individual and I wear what I want, I don't however condone others that want to wear something totally outrageous, which is what I'm reading here. It is wrong, those that are saying some TG's are giving you a bad name because of what they are wearing are hypercrits. Sorry, but that's how I feel, learn to accept others if you want them to accept you.

[Darlena]

I, Darlena, offer no appologies for the following remarks and/or observations. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful, is a good intro towards what I believe to be a disservice to my kind. I happen to be of a dual nature and alternate lifestyle. Even though I espouse freedom of choice and expression, I really do not appreciate being parodied by bearded clowns who think my choices are a tragi-comedy to be exploited for laughter.(because that is the result) After the party is over they wipe the clown make up off and go home to the old ball and chain quite smug in the afterglow of their ribald pokes at me and my kind. For me..,this is who I am. For them ..,I'm merely fodder for their insensitive jabs at someone who is different from them. If you spent nearly as much time as I have in the "Gay/Transgendered" community as I have, then I could give credence to your qualifying these bearded clown/queens who don't care about me and what happens to me as a person. I stand by what I have said here. Love & kisses anyway and I need a hug, Darlena: rose:

[Sophia Rearen]

My point and I think the point of this forum is that we are cders and I think that most of us would rather be out of the closet than in. So, we are all here to help each other. And no greater example of that is the GG's that are members here. It is they who make this forum special. They are our model of what we want society to be. Could you imagine a society of people such as they? It would be bliss. Then, when we have that point, let the expressionism fly. Until then, I believe in order to get others out of the closet the public's perception of us has to change. And, one of my points in the original thread was get out there. If there was a mass of cd's portraying themselves as good people then perception would change and more girls would go out for lack of fear or whatever. So I'm basically asking for a movement. If 95% of the girls were to go out and "fit in" and 5% were DQ's or such then the acceptance will happen If 95% were DQ's and 5% trying to fit in then, I'm sorry, I don't see acceptance occuring and most girls staying locked in the closet. I'm sorry, that's just how society is.


I said it. I'm glad I said it. And I'll say it again.

Tamara,
You have accepted us. Thank you for that. However, most people have not.

[Sophia Rearen]

So put simply.....


If you are a CD and UGLY...please stay at home so as not to frighten anyone.

Thank you.

There. See. What's complicated about that?

:D


Julie,

Succinct, certainly.
Politically correct, hardly.
Funny, definitely.

[KathrynW]

Julie,Succinct, certainly.
Politically correct, hardly.Funny, definitely.

Well, whatever you want to call this...it's basically the truth.
Let's face the facts here...if you want to CD in public...passing is EVERYTHING.
If you can't pass undetected, then you'd better be prepared to deal with the consequences of your actions. Yep...there are probably as many different opinions concerning this, as there are people posting here. Nobody is really right or wrong, we just have different opinions. That's why this is a "community" (I use that term very loosely) which will never really be united with a common goal.
Sure...we can compare notes and experiences here, and that's all well and good...
But as far as making any huge impact on what society thinks of CD's, it's simply not going to happen. Sure, call me negative or whatever. I call it common sense, and living in the real world. ;)

[Amelie]

I, Darlena, offer no appologies for the following remarks and/or observations. Don't hate me because I'm beautiful, is a good intro towards what I believe to be a disservice to my kind. I happen to be of a dual nature and alternate lifestyle. Even though I espouse freedom of choice and expression, I really do not appreciate being parodied by bearded clowns who think my choices are a tragi-comedy to be exploited for laughter.(because that is the result) After the party is over they wipe the clown make up off and go home to the old ball and chain quite smug in the afterglow of their ribald pokes at me and my kind. For me..,this is who I am. For them ..,I'm merely fodder for their insensitive jabs at someone who is different from them. If you spent nearly as much time as I have in the "Gay/Transgendered" community as I have, then I could give credence to your qualifying these bearded clown/queens who don't care about me and what happens to me as a person. I stand by what I have said here. Love & kisses anyway and I need a hug, Darlena: rose:

Darlena I understand whatyou are saying here, and you are right in your feelings.

The only question that I tried to say in my last post was, where is the line drawn about who is hurting the CD image and who is sincere.

I see some pics on CD forums of Cds who clearly have a five O'clock beard shadow. I do know that these CD's are not trying to make fun of others and they are really trying to get a look that fits them best. I know that they are true because I read their posts, their posts are filled with kind words. Now, just because these CDs show a beard shadow, are they not a true Cd, or are they hurting this image people here want? (I am not asking you personally Darlena, I'm just making a point to everyone).

Who here makes the rule of what is the right way to CD and what is the wrong way. Like Julie sort of said in a fun way, do we say that ugly CDs are hurting the image.

What I'm saying is that it isn't clear who is hurting the image and who is not hurting the image. And most of all who decides what is right and wrong.

Me, personally, I am not your ambassador, I only speak for myself, and if you want the world to know what CDs are like, then it is up to each one here individually to be their own ambassador, don't leave it to others, do it yourself.

[kwebb]

I would love to get out there and strut my feminine glory in a tastful way. The only time I have really been out is to a few of the 'gender events. It was mostly a mixed bag. Incredible highs to devastating lows. Even though I received incredibly positive comments from people I encountered, and even passed some of the time, I allow myself to wallow in the few negative comments I got and it sends me back into the closet . Which can be a dark and frustrating place, especially once you've seen the light of day with it (the CDed self).
The main reason I don't go out on a regular basis is that I have not fully accepted myself. Point blank. It is tough when the only people around you are trans-phobic. Just because someone disagrees with this does not make them T-phobic, but these folks are the real thing. And they are mostly good kind christian folks. They cause me to 2nd guess all of this. Oh sure, there have been fleeting moments and glimpses of this elusive self-accpetance, only to be followed by gut-wrenching, body-aching periods of guilt and incredible shame. So I can tell my self that I've done it (accepted me) but actions speaks louder than words. I am a people pleaser and for whatever reason , their reaction to me means alot.

I used to think that the day would come when society would see CDing as one of the coolest things a man could do. I agree with Ms. Boyd, just like the Gay movement, society wont change until some CDers really get together to change it, and fight it which I don't feel is the case right now. Some will go out in their own areas to enlighten and some may be successful and maybe that is where it starts. So many are in the closet. I mean there has gotta be 10's of thousands of us, maybe millions. I figured this when I first started going on-line and encountered an endless resource of sites and whatnot.

Point is, I don't think many see it as being worth the pain, as in, the price you pay to do it in public is not worth the payoff. I spend most of the day in male mode secretly wishing I was en femme. But I am not emotionally strong enough to take on this world.

The Virginia Prince story is an interesting one. I too, read the biography and have been following her 'Transvestia' magazine for years. There were brief editorials where she half-heartedly addressed the issue of eroticism and CDing. But until I read the bio I had no idea that her private life was such an opposite to what she preached. However I do think she was onto something when describing the 'girl within' concept and this being more of a cultural, social phenomena than anything else. It described alot of my feelings with this during those first few times I did it at 10-11 yrs old. There certainly wan't any eroticism then, if so, I did not recognize it. I would slip into a pair of mom's stockings , put my pants over them and go downstairs and interact with the family in a much more extroverted and relaxed way. I certainly wasn't lusting over anything. I think for me the sex part was merely a by-product that really expressed itself in my late teens into 20s and 30s.
It is certainly a part of it today, but comes from me actually imagining myself , maybe its not imagination, it must be real, to be anatomically female. That alone can turn me on. But its more on the back burner now.

We are all alike but no two cds are alike at the same time.

[KathrynW]

The main reason I don't go out on a regular basis is that I have not fully accepted myself. Point blank.
Oh sure, there have been fleeting moments and glimpses of this elusive self-accpetance, only to be followed by gut-wrenching, body-aching periods of guilt and incredible shame. So I can tell my self that I've done it (accepted me) but actions speaks louder than words. I am a people pleaser and for whatever reason , their reaction to me means alot.

If everyone here were unquestionably HONEST, I'd say very few have reached a degree of 100% self acceptance with their cd-ing. If everyone had reached that point, there'd be no need for forums like this one. Everyone would just dress exactly how they please and not give it a second thought. But...that's not the case...and won't be the case...not in our lifetime anyway. ;)

[uknowhoo]

I hear what you're saying Kwebb, and can certainly empathize. Many of us have been in a similar place before. In fact, alot of us here were in the same place when we first arrived here at this forum. I expect the pain you suffer from the rejection of others is likely facilitated by a lack of self-acceptance on your part. That's how it was for me until 6 or 8 months ago. My wish for you is that you will grow from your participation here, shed some of that guilt and shame and come to a deeper level of understanding of, and acceptance of yourself. I think that's the path we're all on. I was a bit surprised by Sherlyn's admission of her lack of confidence. Here she has been out numerous times, always looks totally gorgeous and GG, and yet suffers from the same self-doubt we all do. But, as I and others have contended earlier in this thread, it would seem that our own internal non-acceptance (not society's) is the real mountain to be overcome. Alas, Rome wasn't built in a day. We're slow but steady progress making our path over that mountain. Hopefully through our participation and mutual support here, we can make the journey easier, instead of beating up one another (and/or ourselves) along the way.
Hugs, Tammi

[kwebb]

In order for society to accept me, I MUST accept myself. But I can't seem to accept myself until society accepts me. I gotta peel back and discard all of the years when all I heard was 'this is wrong, you aught to be ashamed, have you no shame, you are a bad man, you are going to bust hell wide open, etc.
Its tough when that is still all I hear. Heaven knows folks have put up with much worse, imagine being somebody's slave. We aren't that far beyond that era you know. Things take time. I know that sitting around waiting for society's acceptance is not really the way to be, there will ALWAYS be someone who opposed you in anything. Everything you do is evil to someobody.

These axioms ring true, but they don't hide the pain and hurt I feel when I turn on the television and some TG or Cd is being made fun of, portrayed as some insane person. I should not let those perceptions color me, but sometimes I think they are true, thus the 2nd guessing this part of me. Somehow a part of me feels I need to try and discard it, yet, is that the society speaking thru me or my own thoughts? In the innermost of my being I don 't want to discard it. I don't believe I could if I tried. Maybe some can. Some don't want to. We are all so different, with differing degrees of gender discomfort in some cases. Some CDs don't have this gender discomfort, but at times I surely do. I would much rather be female, today. Maybe tommorow I don't feel so strongly. Strange fruit indeed.

Do I feel deep down inside of me that it is wrong? Just some common fetish I picked up in the over active imaginations of childhood, took too far, and now that I am a full grown man , I aught to know better. Is it that simple?

I've heard of many who simply reach a ceiling and figure there is nothing more I can do with this and just quit. Where is it all going, anywhere? What good can come out of it? If any, does it outweight the bad?

[Sharon]

I've been reading these posts in this thread for a couple days, and I just shake my head at the hypocrisy I read.

Take a look in the Picture Forum -- who gets the most compliments? Are they equally distributed among all the members who dare post photos of themselves? No! The vast majority of comments are made to those members who look the most fem and are considered the sexiest. And yet so many of you are saying how enlightened you are and you accept the right of anyone to dress however they want. Bullshit!!!

Where are the comments to those members who are not so naturally pretty -- or at least as talented in their Photoshop skills?

I have seen members actually post a list of fellow members they think are most "girly." Is this statement made with any knowledge about a member's heart? No -- it is made on purely physical attributes. If a member's photos give you a rise out of your chair, then you come on here and gush all over the photos. But, God forbid, if they appear the least bit masculine or plain, most of you just move on elsewhere on the page to the next pretty face you see.

Look yourselves in the mirror for once and be honest about what you really are. And quit making me wish I had the nerve to respond to you all individually.

[erica12b]

ok here is my thought if we want to make a inpact on the world in a positive way we need to get some stand up , cd,s to talk and represent us (two hubby wife teams, and two single cd's), we need to get a letter (e-mail) campane going and try to get on the good tv talk shows, do on how we are just guys that dress, on metrosexual , on freestyling ,we have had a lot of threads that have worked wonders for rhe cds here and have opened our eyes, to some of the things we did not see ,but if we want to open the world(societs eyes )we need t fight the jerry springer type reprsentation of a cd . ok my two cents worth any one have any other thoughts ?

[kwebb]

If its all about what is on the inside as so many of us say, what difference does it make what the outside looks like? I have often said to stop judging by mere appearance. But we are more visual than anything else. I have heard of some cders hating on gays, I would sound like a fool judging anybody from my standpoint, for Christ sakes I am a man in a dress.

[uknowhoo]

Sharon, you make a very good point. I am somewhat guilty of what you refer to. I sometimes gush over stunning pics. But I also try to support those others who are brave enough to post pics as well. I'm not so sure that's necessarily hypocracy though. Not responding to a pic thread and not accepting the individual are two different things, are they not? I

For what it's worth, I thoroughly enjoyed meeting several CDers at the tri ess party the other night who were in their sixties. They weren't beauty queens by any means, but I believe my attraction to them was a function of the level of self-acceptance they had achieved.

Hugs,

Tammi

[Sophia Rearen]

In order for society to accept me, I MUST accept myself. But I can't seem to accept myself until society accepts me. I gotta peel back and discard all of the years when all I heard was 'this is wrong, you aught to be ashamed, have you no shame, you are a bad man, you are going to bust hell wide open, etc.


kwebb,
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
I've been waiting for this straight from the heart feeling.
:clap: :^5: :hugs:

[kwebb]

This society has shifted soooo quickly. If you said half the stuff Archie Bunker and George Jefferson or Fred Sanford said in the 70s on prime time today, you'd have protests in the street, boycotts and all of the such. My point is ,in ways , culture has shifted. That was only 25 years ago. Women have only recently in world history got the right to vote, that to me ins insanity, its hard to even imagine. But then again back in the days of Antiquity, the socieites were basicaly matriarchal (ever read Merlin Stone's When God was a Woman). It was ALL about the power of the womb and fertitlity, if you married you took HER name.

Heck, in the medival times it was men who wore the skirts, make-up, wigs and stockings!!!!

Its interesting to live and watch it shift. Television is all about trends ,fads. Springer made it cool to sensationalize TGs and dang near everyone else followed suit.

Now back in the day, I saw many many daytime talk shows do intelligent, informative shows on the phenomena of CDing. Sally, Geraldo, Donahue, all of em really tried to open the public's eye about this. I can't even imagine an intelligent show on the subject today. Then they all jumped on the Springer bandwagon. This country does not have to worry about being invaded, I feel it is going to rot from the inside out. People want to be told what to think, and not think for themselves.

[Sarah Smile]

I'm still waiting for the closeted girl to reply to this thread. Honestly, from the gut, from the heart, what would have to take place in the eyes of society for you to feel comfortable to venture out?


I was all ready to reply to this quote plainly, but on second thought, I may not be exactly the type you were expecting to respond, so I'll add a caveat, namely that I have gone out in public on many occasions in "feminine drab", i.e. feminine shirts, jewelry, pantyhose with shorts, and/or feminine shoes, but otherwise dressed as a guy.

What it would take for me to go out completely en femme is not a change in society's perceptions, but in my own. I don't want to go out en femme unless I felt I could pass, which I don't think I could. Alas, this change in my own perceptions is (much) easier said than done.

It may seem strange (it does even to me) that I would go out without fear as I have, but not fully en femme, but there it is. I don't know why this is true for me.

[Amelie]

I've been reading these posts in this thread for a couple days, and I just shake my head at the hypocrisy I read.

Take a look in the Picture Forum -- who gets the most compliments? Are they equally distributed among all the members who dare post photos of themselves? No! The vast majority of comments are made to those members who look the most fem and are considered the sexiest. And yet so many of you are saying how enlightened you are and you accept the right of anyone to dress however they want. Bullshit!!!

Where are the comments to those members who are not so naturally pretty -- or at least as talented in their Photoshop skills?

I have seen members actually post a list of fellow members they think are most "girly." Is this statement made with any knowledge about a member's heart? No -- it is made on purely physical attributes. If a member's photos give you a rise out of your chair, then you come on here and gush all over the photos. But, God forbid, if they appear the least bit masculine or plain, most of you just move on elsewhere on the page to the next pretty face you see.

Look yourselves in the mirror for once and be honest about what you really are. And quit making me wish I had the nerve to respond to you all individually.

Ouch!!! Well said, thanks.

[Sophia Rearen]

I was all ready to reply to this quote plainly, but on second thought, I may not be exactly the type you were expecting to respond, so I'll add a caveat, namely that I have gone out in public on many occasions in "feminine drab", i.e. feminine shirts, jewelry, pantyhose with shorts, and/or feminine shoes, but otherwise dressed as a guy.

Amber,
So, are you saying you dressed non-committal?

[Sarah Smile]

Amber,
So, are you saying you dressed non-committal?

Well, I don't know if I would put it like that. For awhile, I considered myself male but interested in expressing a feminine side if I wanted to... not having to be confined to society's views of what is masculine. Recently, I've realized that I am basically female inside and that all the masculine roles and traits I took on growing up were all a sham. I suppose it boils down to having worked up to a comfort level with expressing myself as a feminine male.

[Sophia Rearen]

What it would take for me to go out completely en femme is not a change in society's perceptions, but in my own. I don't want to go out en femme unless I felt I could pass, which I don't think I could. Alas, this change in my own perceptions is (much) easier said than done.

It may seem strange (it does even to me) that I would go out without fear as I have, but not fully en femme, but there it is. I don't know why this is true for me.

Would you call it the road to self-acceptance?

[Jeri Rene]

I'm still waiting for the closeted girl to reply to this thread. Honestly, from the gut, from the heart, what would have to take place in the eyes of society for you to feel comfortable to venture out?


Hope I quoted that right.

I have never been out dressed so I guess I would be one of the girls your looking for and then again I probably am not one of the girls your looking for.
What keeps me from going out is self esteem and self confidence....or the lack there of, not society. Well not directly.
For me my low self esteem and lack of self confidence (which stems from issues I won't discuss here) leave me feeling that everyone is looking at me, talking about me, etc and as a result I do as much as I can to avoid drawing attention to myself and thus I stay in.
As far as society goes ... the need to point, nudge a friend/coworker "did you see that?", laugh etc.. is it really necessary? I know it happens because, I am ashamed to say, I've done it. But that was the past and I am sure we have all done things we regret.
I am relatively new to all of this (in fact this is my first post outside of introductions) and maybe I have lost the entire point of where this discussion started. Its been said many times at this point that one must be happy with ones self. If you like who you are then does it really matter what others think of you?
For those who are brave/confident enough to go out dressed as they want to dress regardless of how others may look at them I can only aspire to be so.

Jeri

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Sorry to repost the crux of the thread starter, but there are so many interesting diverging points being raised in this thread, it is hard to follow if we yet have a consensus view on Sophia's original, or can only agree to disagree?

I hope this helps, here goes a first draft resume on the original points :

1
[QUOTE=Sophia Rearen]
Hi Girls,
Anyway, one of our discussions was, we all believed that we girls, need to get out into the public more. I'm sure the rest of the girls here can attest to the fact that once your out, it just feels like your givin right to be out with the general public. Girls, if you have not yet done so, please do it. The stories of negative reaction are so miniscule. When your out most people don't care.

Do we agree on the above. And that there are differing problems and reasons we each face in achieving it?

2
But, please for the sake of the crossdressing future, do it with some decorum. Try to fit in as best as possible. The "hey, look at me, I'm a crossdresser" look is not a good way to promote a positive lifestyle. Wearing skirts up to one's nether region at the mall can't be good. There's a time and place for everything.

Would it be fair to compromise and say we all agree in the individual's right to wear what they please unless that unreasonably hurts others?

3
Case in point. While we were having our function in a private room downstairs, I had to use the ladies room upstairs. When heading in I noticed a "girl" sitting in the main dining room. She was dressed in a little girls' red Chrismas outfit. Complete with large lolly pop and a blond pigtail wig. :eek: Surprisingly, she was dining alone. Girls, this can't help our cause in any way, shape or form.

This is an unresolved issue. Many find it odd and distasteful or unnacceptable, yet an equal number believe it would be hypocritical to deny anyone the right to dress as they please. Would the above caveat : the freedom to wear what you please, so long as that does not unreasonably harm others , be a compromise?

And those who wish, could elsewhere continue the debate on which modes of attire they feel harms others?


4
I know I'm too old to reap the benefits of total open exceptance by the public. But, I know it's coming. My goal is to have it be excepted such as the way lesbians are today. I want to hear from GG's. "Your a crossdresser? That's so cool! I wish my boyfriend/husband would dress! Or, I wish I could find a guy like that". I'm telling you girls, it's going to happen. Question is, do you want to wait 10-20 years or 5-10 to see the fruits (no pun intended) of our labor.

It seems all wholeheartedly agree with the sooner the better?

5
Get out there and be good ambassadores for the crossdressing community and post your stories here. This is the place for a revolution.

If we need to get out there to change society but some feel unable to get out until society changes first, then is it reasonable to compromise and say that we encourage those who can to go out?

Apologies again for taking us back to the issues originally raised but if Sophia's revolution is ever to start we need to progress to a consensus.

Picture that scene from The Life Of Brian where the PLF or is it the PFL committee debate, digress, decide on a fruitless action, which in any event by then is too late.

Consensus would be good for the Forum. Ulitmately it will be those who walk the walk who will change society.

luvnhugz

[BeckyAnderson]

I have never been out dressed so I guess I would be one of the girls your looking for and then again I probably am not one of the girls your looking for.
What keeps me from going out is self esteem and self confidence....or the lack there of, not society. Well not directly.

For me my low self esteem and lack of self confidence (which stems from issues I won't discuss here) leave me feeling that everyone is looking at me, talking about me, etc and as a result I do as much as I can to avoid drawing attention to myself and thus I stay in.

Jeri

You are me one year ago. Prior to that I had never been out in public. I had no pride or self confidence about anything. Just over a year ago I decide to join a chapter of a national support group. That was the best thing I could have ever done. Although I must admit, the first meeting I went to I had to dress in front of total strangers in the supplied dressing room and that was a bit traumatic. However, I was committed to follow through with this. I thought, at this point in my life what do I have to lose? That night the chapter president and a few of the girls were going to so some shopping locally and they asked if I wanted to come. I nearly died on the spot! "Me? Are you crazy?" "I've never set foot in the outside world dressed as a woman." "Just coming here was a monumental and scary undertaking." To make a long story short, they somehow convinced me to go. I was scared s***less but I went. As it turned out that night was the turning point of my life. My low self esteem and I learned very quickly that it was okay to be who I am. That was my day of reckoning. The salesgirls were great and the other shoppers were even helpful as were the girls I went with. They understood what I was going through and helped me over the bridge. In the following days and weeks understanding, peace, confidence, contentment and a miriad of other feelings flowed over me like a tsunami. Now it is just one short year later and I have been just about everywhere I could go as a guy, the movies, clubs, shopping, restaurants, supermarkets, walks in the park, everywhere. I've even gotten to the point of going to these places alone. Do I pass as a woman? Certainly not. But that night made me realize that it is okay to be me, whatever form that may take.

Hugs,
Becky

[Sophia Rearen]

Tiffany,
No need to apologize. I think it was well needed. I've been so entrenched in this thread for the past couple days, even I am starting to forget the original crux. LOL.

#3 seems to be the sticking point
I followed that up with another post #21 and again #74 using the 95%-5% example. A made up percentage.

Let me add this and see if this helps.
Lets say we take anytown, any nation, this world.
The town is average in the best definition.
In that town there are people that accept us, but the majority do not.
The town has a population of 100,000 people.
Following my desire for more to get out, 1000 girls out themselves in 1 year.
Option 1: 950 girls go out and do their best to fit in, and 50 girls go out and dress like DQ's, ****s, little girls, what have you.
-Or-
Option 2: 950 girls go out and dress like DQ's, ****s, little girls, and what have you, and 50 girls go out and try to fit in.
Now, which option would have the most positive perception change?
I opt for option 1
I would love to see the 50 girls in this example. They add spice, flavor, and fun to life. I am not judgemental of the clothes they wear.
If I'm wrong and the majority feel that there should be 950 DQ's, little girls, ****s, or what have you. Then and only then will I say that perception change will never happen. Because I feel that most people in todays society would oppose us.

Tiffany, Thanks for helping.

[Sarah Smile]

Would you call it the road to self-acceptance?

I think it is, partly, a road from partial self-acceptance to full self-acceptance. I think it is also a shift in my self-perception. I am shifting from thinking that I should be a male who can dress as he pleases to that I may be a female who should transition externally as well as internally.

[Sophia Rearen]

Amber,
Whew, that could be a long road. I hope you have enough gas.:)

[Sarah Smile]

Since I was one of those who jumped into the middle of the thread, I am going to go back to the initial crux myself, with the help of Tiffany's nicely enumerated post.


Sorry to repost the crux of the thread starter, but there are so many interesting diverging points being raised in this thread, it is hard to follow if we yet have a consensus view on Sophia's original, or can only agree to disagree?

I hope this helps, here goes a first draft resume on the original points :

1


Hi Girls,
Anyway, one of our discussions was, we all believed that we girls, need to get out into the public more. I'm sure the rest of the girls here can attest to the fact that once your out, it just feels like your givin right to be out with the general public. Girls, if you have not yet done so, please do it. The stories of negative reaction are so miniscule. When your out most people don't care.

Do we agree on the above. And that there are differing problems and reasons we each face in achieving it?


I agree.



2
But, please for the sake of the crossdressing future, do it with some decorum. Try to fit in as best as possible. The "hey, look at me, I'm a crossdresser" look is not a good way to promote a positive lifestyle. Wearing skirts up to one's nether region at the mall can't be good. There's a time and place for everything.


I think I understand what you mean by this, but I want to make sure. The emphasis is on decorum right, rather than fitting in? The reason I say this is that, in the past, I have gone out in what I consider to be acceptable "male" clothing, even though most would consider it feminine. I have done so with the decorum fitting a mature human being, but it had never been my intention to fit in. I was simply trying to be myself. Does this fit in with what you were thinking? If so, I agree. In a sense, it's a different issue... crossdressing to suit oneself (whether looking female or not) vs. crossdressing to look female.


Would it be fair to compromise and say we all agree in the individual's right to wear what they please unless that unreasonably hurts others?


I get the impression that this is the gist, but that a lack of decorum (however that may be defined) among some crossdressers can hurt the image of the rest and is thus not acceptable.



3
Case in point. While we were having our function in a private room downstairs, I had to use the ladies room upstairs. When heading in I noticed a "girl" sitting in the main dining room. She was dressed in a little girls' red Chrismas outfit. Complete with large lolly pop and a blond pigtail wig. :eek: Surprisingly, she was dining alone. Girls, this can't help our cause in any way, shape or form.


Why not? Was s/he hurting anyone? Was s/he causing a problem, or does the problem exist in the minds of the perceivers?



This is an unresolved issue. Many find it odd and distasteful or unnacceptable, yet an equal number believe it would be hypocritical to deny anyone the right to dress as they please. Would the above caveat : the freedom to wear what you please, so long as that does not unreasonably harm others , be a compromise?


This makes sense to me, though I don't have as expansive (sic) a view of what hurts others as some do.



And those who wish, could elsewhere continue the debate on which modes of attire they feel harms others?


Sounds like a good idea.



4
I know I'm too old to reap the benefits of total open exceptance by the public. But, I know it's coming. My goal is to have it be excepted such as the way lesbians are today. I want to hear from GG's. "Your a crossdresser? That's so cool! I wish my boyfriend/husband would dress! Or, I wish I could find a guy like that". I'm telling you girls, it's going to happen. Question is, do you want to wait 10-20 years or 5-10 to see the fruits (no pun intended) of our labor.


I'd like to see this, too, but I think it's still far away, even for gays and lesbians. Overall, anyway. It depends on where you live, of course.



It seems all wholeheartedly agree with the sooner the better?


I do.



5
Get out there and be good ambassadores for the crossdressing community and post your stories here. This is the place for a revolution.

If we need to get out there to change society but some feel unable to get out until society changes first, then is it reasonable to compromise and say that we encourage those who can to go out?


I believe so.



Apologies again for taking us back to the issues originally raised but if Sophia's revolution is ever to start we need to progress to a consensus.

Picture that scene from The Life Of Brian where the PLF or is it the PFL committee debate, digress, decide on a fruitless action, which in any event by then is too late.


I disagree with this, actually. If we were to go out as a group (physically), I think it would apply, but I think it's best for each individual to go out and do what they can in the best way they can. (By the way, what are we, The People's Front of Transgenderia or The Transgenderian People's Front?)



Consensus would be good for the Forum. Ulitmately it will be those who walk the walk who will change society.


True.



luvnhugz


I agree with this wholeheartedly!

;)

Amber

[Sarah Smile]

Amber,
Whew, that could be a long road. I hope you have enough gas.:)

I could answer that truthfully, but doing so would not befit a lady of my decorum. :eek:

*hums "The Long and Winding Road"*

[Sophia Rearen]

Stephanie,
That's very apropos. Thank you.
I'm a little surprised though. You didn't comment on my math example. Probably too basic to even comment?:D

[ReginaK]

I'd like to hear from some girls that have not been out. What would have to take place in society's eyes that would enable them to take their first steps out?

I don't think there is anything in society that keeps me from going out. I think it's more of a personal thing. As it's been said many times on this forum and many others, most people in the public don't care about a "man in a dress". Unless it's a group of children, most of society is more concerned about it's own life than others. People will snicker, chuckle, or whatever and move on.

I think what keeps most of us from going out is the fear of what people might think, not what people actually think. It's a case of some CDs being their own worst critic.

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Sophia,

yes that would be an undesired scenario, but i believe it is one we need not fear, and here is why:

#3
the originator of the Rose's Forum and i suspect this Forum too, was a lovely person called Krystina and an adult little girl (alg)

I discovered this when he held an LG weekend at Roses House and as the House Hostess I was invited and met these alg's and their partners. Being used to the ribald TV/TG/TS i normally hosted, the alg's were totally sweet, and unlike a similar spread of tgirls, there was nothing unpleasant going on. In fact it was boring. I lasted a morning in a petty and party frock to get piccies with them, then went and dressed as a 50's mummy and baked them fairy cakes.

What i discovered that weekend was that, there are not that many alg's around in the world. They comprise men and women. Unlike many of us and our piccies they totally shun publicity and would be the last ever to out themselves. They actually want to be innocent and childlike, like little girls it would seem impossible for them to conceive of forcing themselves on society, as they seek the very opposite, their aim is to be children. When they went out, they went out dressed as men. There are more alg's in the US than anywhere else, and they have weekend camps, but from what i have heard, these are like childrens summer camps attended by timid well behaved, boring idealised little girls, hardly rampant revolutionaries :)

I know of only one alg in the public eye (Grayson Perry), yes he is the real thing but his aim is to bring attention to cruelty to children. There may be a few others out in society i have not heard of.

Your scenario could never be realised because of their few numbers and because they themselves want the quiet carefree life of children and seek the security of mommy, not the danger of being out and about or ever confrontational. I fully accept there will be cranks, but judging by the few you and i have ever seen in public, there will never be many. Nor will what we ask of such cranks about dress code make a blind bit of difference.

But there are other international groups of adult little girls, the Elegant Gothic Lolitas (EGL), (and various other sub sets like Princess Lolita, J-rock and Manga). EGL's are young women! It orginated and is big in Japan, but is going international, i met one in Edinburgh and know of many in the US. They meet out in public at thr weekends dressed as little girls, to admire and show off their outfits. They draw huge crowds of tourists and admirers keenm to see the spectacle of women dressed as idealised victorianesque little girls. They wear beautifully made outre frilly ultra sissy pretty little pre-school girl clothes, carry dollies lollipops the lot! And look totally sweet!

There is no threat from them to us, nor society at large, we are most unlilely to be inundated by cd alg's, but your scenario may well come to fruition if EGL takes off as it has in Japan. The point is, how can we deny men the right to wear what women wear?

I would suggest Krystina, an alg, has done more to further our cause than anyone here if not anyone else ever, by setting up these Forums, so i would propose the compromise, wear what you please unless it unreasonably harms others, the question then is what is unreasonable harm?

luvnhugz x

[Sophia Rearen]

I think what keeps most of us from going out is the fear of what people might think, not what people actually think. It's a case of some CDs being their own worst critic.

Very true, that's why in the original post I encouraged more to get out. The number of negative reactions are miniscule.

[Sophia Rearen]

Tiffany,
Sorry, I was not clear. The 50 could be any combination of the DQ, ****, little girls, or what have you girls.

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Tiffany,
Sorry, I was not clear. The 50 could be any combination of the DQ, ****, little girls, or what have you girls.


Tee hee, Sophia,

****s ... there may be others here better qualified to give us an insight :) No my nose is not growing ... pout!!! But i do confess to having recently bought two mega drag Las Vegas wigs which Cosmic and i wore to compere the Miss Rose 2005 competition!

g'nite hon x

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Puh-lease, think about what you are saying, if you can't accept someone because they have dressed in a little girls dress, or dressed ****ty or even doned a beard, then why should society accept you? I think that's just a tad hypercritical if you ask me.

You're right to call us out on that.

The difficulty comes in having one's heart and one's actions match one's lofty ideals. In a sense it's probably pretty similar to the trepidations that SOs feel about accompanying their CD: what is being next to going to make people think about me?

Which is why I was honest about my ambivalences. Am I proud of them, not really. But they're there, and something I need to work though.

In part I think people sometimes are especially vehement in condemning what they fear in themselves. Lacey Leigh who's very intolerant of ****ty dressers has mentioned she once dressed similarly until she "grew out" of it. For others I think it's a chance to have some lower on the totem pole, i.e. I may not be accepted, but at least I'm not [insert label here].

To me, it's the impact of one's behavior that's the appropriate yardstick for judging someone. I'm not talking about how one's appearence might be seen as reflecting on others, but rather does one's behavior [i]directly hurt others. Someone dressing ****ty is a lot different than someone acting ****ty and cheating on their partner. Or the CD who decided to get permanent eyeliner tattooed on without bothering to tell her wife -- and can't understand why she's upset.


Take a look in the Picture Forum -- who gets the most compliments? Are they equally distributed among all the members who dare post photos of themselves? No! The vast majority of comments are made to those members who look the most fem and are considered the sexiest. And yet so many of you are saying how enlightened you are and you accept the right of anyone to dress however they want. Bullshit!!!

That's another example of the "TG hierarchy" that unfortunately is all too prevalent. In real-life I'm not as attractive as in my photos (which is why I'm very selective which ones I post) so I'm sensitive to this issue. Which doesn't mean I'm immune from it myself either. At one of my first dinners out I was seated next to a CD with a voice James Earl Jones would envy, fur on the back of her hands and the fashion sense of Crazy Aunt Mabel. And yes, I was a bit uncomfortable -- here I'm trying to do my best femme presentation and this person next to me pretty much assures there's no way I'll blend in. But I did my best not to let my personal anxieties show.

That's because part of forming a movement usually means allying yourself with people that you may not be totally comfortable with. As was once said, we need to all hang together lest we end up all hang separately.

[vanessaleigh]

Okay, so I am joking about the joke...

I don't get to go out in public very often, but I am getting a bit more courageous as time goes on. Usually, when I do go out I try to pass by dressing and acting to blend into the crowd. From a hundred yards away I can pass pretty well.

Last Saturday, my wife and I got dressed to the nines to go to a really big CD party that is held nearby. Before we went to the party, we went to a local bar and grill for dinner with a CD friend (not specifically a gay hangout, but seems to be TG friendly). Well, I can tell you that when you are the only one in a place wearing a green sequin dress, it is really hard to blend in!

I receive a lot of favorable looks and nobody burst out laughing! I had a great time and the world didn't end. And I am pretty sure that a lot of people knew that I wasn't a GG.

So, is that what was meant at the start of this thread. I think that I received a lot more acceptance than I would have 10 or 20 years ago. I wish I could have done this that long ago. I would have been able to fit into a size 10 or 12 then!

Go out, be safe and have fun!

[susandrea]

I came across this the other day and I think it applies here very well:

Create within yourself what you want to attract from without. To attract a friend, be a friend first. To be loved, love.

A simple truth is that everything you experience is not out there, it is in here, inside of you. It is your experience, not reality.

Distinguishing your experience from reality is one of the first steps to becoming free- it empowers you to choose, rather than tolerate, the way you relate to the world.

This, in turn, will empower you to make the difference in the world you're really out to make.

[susandrea]

Does anyone here feel comfortable with society in general, apart from the CD angle?

I've worked with the public for many, many years. Most people are anything BUT beautiful or graceful. And they're fat (about 70%). And lazy and stupid and ignorant. They are often mean, unappreciative, cheap, and selfish. Three out of four are divorced or soon to be so. 60% of the teens I've ever seen are irritating and incredibly uneducated. So many kids are obnoxious and spoiled I lost count. A jaw-dropping percentage of people are abusers, perverts, ex-cons, bitches, jerks, idiots, and creeps. Many have physical and/or mental problems, including all kinds of phobias. Loads accept antiquated religious beliefs without any introspection at all. A huge percentage of the elderly are on many types of medication for countless reasons, and a scary number of them have to sell it to make ends meet. Drugs are everywhere, especially Meth. And drunk drivers can kill you anywhere, any time. Irresponsibly maxed-out credit cards hurt us all, but it's extremely common. The clothing people wear goes from dirty goth to polyester grannies, near naked and ill-fitting to "What have you been smoking?" Even my boss is too lazy to iron his shirt and it makes him look like a fool, with big fold marks stretching across his blobby stomach. His wife eats all day, usually with her mouth wide open. Then on rainy days the real weirdos come out of hiding. And that's just in America.

(I only get this way during the Christmas rush-- I work retail. After all the "Returns" crap is over at the end of January I go back to loving humankind again.)

My point is, everyone has imperfections. We all judge others in our minds, it's only natural, but nobody has the right to make you OWN their opinion of you so much so that you are ashamed to be seen.

How many strangers would sit still for your judgement and disapproval of them? How many would change or stay at home because you said so? Would you feel good about yourself if it happened?

As said before, the problem society has with transgendered people is their problem to solve, their wrong to right, their prejudices to overcome, and it will happen some day. But it won't happen by meekly going to the back of the bus where someone else decided you "belong" and dragging others with you, especially if they've already moved to the front and are applying their lipstick in the rear-view mirror.

[Helana]

Self acceptance and society's acceptance are two sides of the same coin. It is a two way street, each reinforcing the other.

The question is which person are you?
A. Proactive. You accept yourself as a crossdresser, go out and have fun and realize that society really is not bothered about you at all. Once you confirm this yourself your self confidence increases
B. Reactive. Wait for society to become more accepting of crossdressers so that your own self-confidence can increase to the point where you feel it is safe to venture out without fear of ridicule or violence. (that will be a long wait)

There is a simple truth about perceptions. What is important is not what others think of you but what you think about yourself.

Are you ready to allow others to see you and recognize you as a crossdresser and feel no shame or guilt about it? Are you proud to be yourself, a transgendered male? Or do you want to still chase after the fantasy that you are passable as a woman?

If a stranger asks if you are a crossdresser are you ready to reply yes or will you deny it?

As for the issue about dressing conservatively, it is true that if we all did this then society would have an easier time accepting us into mainstream society. But as crossdressers who have tasted life outside the box, are we really that eager to go inside the box, the land which allows ignorance and prejudice? If we dress conservatively just to make it more palatable for the general public then we are letting society define our crossdressing. It would no longer be self-expression but society's expression.

Like all things in life we have to find a balance that works for us individually. A balance between fitting in and expressing ourselves. It is not a question of one or the other, leave the black and white thinking to those who like being intolerant.

[Tamara Croft]

:iagree: Well said Sharon :clap: :clap: as for the rest of you that really just don't get it at all, well you can just :tth: !!!


I've been reading these posts in this thread for a couple days, and I just shake my head at the hypocrisy I read.

Take a look in the Picture Forum -- who gets the most compliments? Are they equally distributed among all the members who dare post photos of themselves? No! The vast majority of comments are made to those members who look the most fem and are considered the sexiest. And yet so many of you are saying how enlightened you are and you accept the right of anyone to dress however they want. Bullshit!!!

Where are the comments to those members who are not so naturally pretty -- or at least as talented in their Photoshop skills?

I have seen members actually post a list of fellow members they think are most "girly." Is this statement made with any knowledge about a member's heart? No -- it is made on purely physical attributes. If a member's photos give you a rise out of your chair, then you come on here and gush all over the photos. But, God forbid, if they appear the least bit masculine or plain, most of you just move on elsewhere on the page to the next pretty face you see.

Look yourselves in the mirror for once and be honest about what you really are. And quit making me wish I had the nerve to respond to you all individually.

[Sophia Rearen]

Thank goodness I went to sleep. You girls certainly got alot done.

Marlena,
I agree with you on the CD/SO trepidations. Good point.
Thank you for being honest with yourself and therefor us.

Venessa,
I'd say that is a good example of a typical outing for a cd. And that's a good thing. Yes, go out, have fun, be safe.

Susan,
That was beautiful.
And then, what the hell happened? Wow!

Helana,
That was beautifully written. That pretty much sums up everything I was thinking. If I had to put an analogy on self-acceptance it would look like a viscous circle or better yet a spinning saw blade. No matter where you grab on it's gonna hurt like hell. Being a cd / tg / whatever isn't easy!
Life is all about balance. Thank god, there's a balance center opening nearby:D

[Sophia Rearen]

I'm so sorry everyone,
It seems things were winding down on this, oh so hot thread. It was nicely summarized and now, I can't help myself, I have to rant. Well, maybe this will add some closure, or will it?

My wife is at a neighborhood gathering with the women of the 'hood only. It's a weekday morning. The party is to bring a gift for underpriveledged children.

Here's a conversation which is quite plausible.
My wife has the floor. She tells everyone that her husband is at home vaccuuming the house and taking care of our sick daughter (this is true).
Now, I can imagine a collective "ahhh!" from the group, followed by some "that's so sweet" comments and such.

Now imagine, she still has the floor. And she tells the group that she's going to a christmas party on Saturday night, and she might be wearing one of her husbands dresses (this is true). How quickly do you think she would be ostracised from this group of suburban women? Following the ridicule, my wife would never be able to show her face in this neighborhood again. We'd wind up moving. It would be like a "desperate housewives" hate crime. And you want to talk about hypocrisy?
Society Sucks, Im sorry.

[susandrea]

Now imagine, she still has the floor. And she tells the group that she's going to a christmas party on Saturday night, and she might be wearing one of her husbands dresses ....

Imagine she announces to the group that her husband is a crossdresser and she loves him with all her heart and hopes that her friends, family and aquaintances can find it in their hearts to be accepting of him, or at the very least be tolerant.

Imagine she tells them that she is behind him all the way and always will be, that he is her soulmate and the two of them aren't trying to stir up any trouble but just want to live in peace and hope for the respect she and her family give to them.

Imagine her giving a short and informative description of exactly what a crossdresser is, so that they will understand that her husband (and 99.9% of all CDs) is not a danger to anyone.

Imagine her offering to answer any questions anyone has about the issue, either right now or after, or even weeks later, as she doesn't want anyone to have any misconceptions or fears.

Imagine nearly all of the people in the group she just addressed clapping, some going up to her after and shaking her hand.

Imagine the few insecure gossips who whisper about it after, and the REAL effect it would have on you or anybody worth a nickle, because those people are always moaning about something.

Imagine the one or two friends that drift away because of what the wife said.

Imagine the wife not even noticing because three other women have welcomed her as a new friend, attracted to her strength of spirit.

Imagine one woman in the group who is in the same situation, but not nearly as accepting as the wife, and going home to really think about it.

Imagine most of the people in the group will forget about the whole thing in about a month or so, but a few being grateful that they have been educated and improved in some small way.

:D

Imagine the reality is unknown until you actually go through it, then it becomes history to either learn from or forget.

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Hiya Sharon and Tamara,

You say those here who admire physical beauty are hypocrites if they show empathy for others.
I'm confused, on what do you base this judgement and how does this relate to Sophia's points?

Take #3
Part of Sophia's point, is that society do unfortunately make judgements on us, and everyone else, based on physical appearance and beauty.

Do we try and stop perceived offensive tgirl dressing or should we imbue a higher standard by applauding and so encouraging good appearance?

Perhaps one way to try and change millenia of human evolution to admire physical beauty first, is for people not to take judgmental views on appearance or those admiring or aspiring to it?

I am not totally familiar with recent trends in the Forum but it seems those you criticise here, do post elsewhere showing considerable support and empathy regardless of the physical beauty of the subject.

All that glisters is not gold, but logically some of it must be.

Luvnhugz x

[Sophia Rearen]

Imagine she announces to the group that her husband is a crossdresser and she loves him with all her heart and hopes that her friends, family and aquaintances can find it in their hearts to be accepting of him, or at the very least be tolerant.

Imagine she tells them that she is behind him all the way and always will be, that he is her soulmate and the two of them aren't trying to stir up any trouble but just want to live in peace and hope for the respect she and her family give to them.

Imagine her giving a short and informative description of exactly what a crossdresser is, so that they will understand that her husband (and 99.9% of all CDs) is not a danger to anyone.

Imagine her offering to answer any questions anyone has about the issue, either right now or after, or even weeks later, as she doesn't want anyone to have any misconceptions or fears.

Imagine nearly all of the people in the group she just addressed clapping, some going up to her after and shaking her hand.

Imagine the few insecure gossips who whisper about it after, and the REAL effect it would have on you or anybody worth a nickle, because those people are always moaning about something.

Imagine the one or two friends that drift away because of what the wife said.

Imagine the wife not even noticing because three other women have welcomed her as a new friend, attracted to her strength of spirit.

Imagine one woman in the group who is in the same situation, but not nearly as accepting as the wife, and going home to really think about it.

Imagine most of the people in the group will forget about the whole thing in about a month or so, but a few being grateful that they have been educated and improved in some small way.

:D

Imagine the reality is unknown until you actually go through it, then it becomes history to either learn from or forget.

Susan,
That's incredible!

Now imagine this. You marry me. I keep my current wife as well. So, now I'm a polygamist too. You tell everyone what you just said, because she couldn't and wouldn't?

Got Society?

[susandrea]

Susan,
That's incredible!

Now imagine this. You marry me. I keep my current wife as well. So, now I'm a polygamist too. You tell everyone what you just said, because she couldn't and wouldn't?

Got Society?

Sorry, I'm too busy imagining winning the lottory tonight (over 100 million).

:D :D :D

[Tamara Croft]

Why should one accept a transgendered person based on beauty alone, beauty comes from within, not what one looks like. It's about accepting someone else because they are different and no matter what they look like, no matter what they wear, that person still should be accepted for who they are. Sharon is right regarding the picture section, you always see those that stand out more getting more of a response, how does that make others feel? They feel left out, segregated (sp?) even though they are all under that same TG umbrella. It would be nice to see an even posting on all picture threads, not just a few with loads of replies and many with the odd couple of replies ;)

You are all different, I accept that, I accept that there are those with just a fetish, those that just love lingerie, those that want to wear girly or ****ty clothes, I could go on and on. This forum isn't just about crossdressers, or transexuals, it is for all transgendered members and you all need to support each other, accept each other, then maybe, just maybe, you have a chance out there with the rest of society. But you first need to accept yourself.

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Tamara,

i so totally agree with you, but that does not make the genuine contributers to this thread hypocrites, it merely makes them human.

Luvnhugz x

[Sophia Rearen]

You are all different, I accept that, I accept that there are those with just a fetish, those that just love lingerie, those that want to wear girly or ****ty clothes, I could go on and on. This forum isn't just about crossdressers, or transexuals, it is for all transgendered members and you all need to support each other, accept each other, then maybe, just maybe, you have a chance out there with the rest of society. But you first need to accept yourself.

Tamara,
You've done me proud, girl. :) :cheer: Now your talkin.

[Sophia Rearen]

Sorry, I'm too busy imagining winning the lottory tonight (over 100 million).

:D :D :D

Susan,
If you do win the lottory tonight, then you'll definitely have to marry me. And, since we're polygamists, if we should divorce, and the two wives should choose to remain together ;) then I will only (I'm a big person) take a third of your winnings. That's just the kind of girl I am.

[erica12b]

my thoughts on it are we need to promote our preception of a cd not the one that is out there now bad tv shows make us perverts and fetish freaks this we know are not true but what is true is not what is preceved, we need to put the truth the rea,l faces of some gurls and there wifes out there some brothers and sisters to state our plight, i had a thread that died on this also "furthering our ?"

[Tamara Croft]

When heading in I noticed a "girl" sitting in the main dining room. She was dressed in a little girls' red Chrismas outfit. Complete with large lolly pop and a blond pigtail wig. :eek: Surprisingly, she was dining alone. Girls, this can't help our cause in any way, shape or form.I wanted to quote this part, because as I sat wrapping up Christmas presents earlier, I sat thinking about this. Imagine that this 'girl' joined this forum, would treat her the same way you treated her where you dined? Or would you make her feel welcome? In a way, you treated her like a lower class TG, where you could of asked her to join you and treated her the same way you wish society would treat you.

Imagine, if you will, that this forum only allowed a certain type of transgendered person, imagine we turned away those like that girl who was sat all alone, can you imagine the response we would get here? Do you think this would help your cause? And besides, it's Christmas, she was just in a party spirit, what is so wrong with that?

[sherri]

It seems to me that both sides of this discussion have a point. I'm referring to the matter of dressing "appropriately" and making a positive impression rather than the whole issue of who has the right to dress how. It's not a matter of one look for all occasions.

When I go to a club or bar, I dress the way I like, which usually means a miniskirt and stilettos, maybe braless too. Sometimes that miniskirt is pretty darn short, too. I dress like this in spite of the fact that all the GGs are wearing jeans, and I know I'm dressing a little young for my age, but my legs look better in a mini than in a longer skirt ... and I just like it. I get some funny looks, but I also get compliments. It's a nightclub, people are out to let their hair down and have fun, and I don't see anything wrong with dressing accordingly.

I would not, however, wear the same outfit to a mall or a restaurant or lots of other places. I would feel outlandish and I would think I was making a bad impression - personally and as a representative of the crossdressing community. In such settings, I want to blend in more, but more importantly, I want to be perceived as a down-to-earth, real person, so I dress to make that impression. To me, that's just common sense.

And as several people have said, attitude is key. Confidence, a warm smile and friendliness go a long way in making a good impression and winning people over.

[BeckyAnderson]

I wanted to quote this part, because as I sat wrapping up Christmas presents earlier, I sat thinking about this. Imagine that this 'girl' joined this forum, would treat her the same way you treated her where you dined?

Hi Tamara.

I was at that party. In my opinion, this girl was inappropriately dressed for the location and the occasion. Anyone can wear what they want but there are some common sense rules that should apply. Let me ask you this....You are applying for a job as a legal secretary.....Would you wear a mini skirt, fishnets with hole in them, stelletto's and with a sweatshirt? I hardly think so. The point that I'm trying to make is that there is a time and a place for everything.

If this girl were a part of this forum (of course, we cannot see how she is dressed) and made comments inappropriate for this forum or flamed someone would she not be told that she was out of place?

There is no difference. There needs to be controls for everything, whether they are self-imposed, common sense or generally accepted or there would be nothing but kaos.

HUgs,
Becky

[Phoebe Reece]

I wanted to quote this part, because as I sat wrapping up Christmas presents earlier, I sat thinking about this. Imagine that this 'girl' joined this forum, would treat her the same way you treated her where you dined? Or would you make her feel welcome? In a way, you treated her like a lower class TG, where you could of asked her to join you and treated her the same way you wish society would treat you.

Imagine, if you will, that this forum only allowed a certain type of transgendered person, imagine we turned away those like that girl who was sat all alone, can you imagine the response we would get here? Do you think this would help your cause? And besides, it's Christmas, she was just in a party spirit, what is so wrong with that?

Tamara, I think there is a big difference between accepting a person and accepting their actions. There have been transgendered people on this forum who were warmly accepted when they joined, but banned when they persisted in unacceptable behavior on the forum. I am very curious to know if you personally would have no problem accompanying an adult male dressed as a little girl out shopping on the high street or to a mainstream restaurant.

I was at our local Tri-Ess chapter's holiday party a couple of weeks ago and for part of our entertainment one of our CD's did a little lipsynch routine dressed as a little girl. It was very cute and everyone laughed a lot.... until as part of her "tantrum" part, she decided to lay down on her back with her legs up in the air, flashing everyone with a view of her very brief panties (and she was not wearing a gaff). The routine was not "cute" anymore at that point, and many complaints were voiced later - particularly by a number of the GG's that were present. I don't think it was this person's intent to offend, but she did.

I agree with everything Sherri had to say on this subject. People need to use some common sense when presenting to the public. Failure to use common sense only perpetuates the image portrayed in the media of crossdressers being freaks and disturbed individuals.

[Sophia Rearen]

Your right, no one should be judgemental. In the example I gave earlier, the little girl, may have been the nicest person in the world. And it's my fault for not talking to her. I certainly don't judge people for what they wear. That would be highly hypocritical of me to do so. I don't judge gothers, punkers, preppies or whatever by the clothes they wear. But lets face it, most people do. Warm Regards,


Tamara,
May I add, a little more light to the subject. Let me be clear about my thoughts. I know you may not be accusing me of any wrong doing. Because, after all, you were not there. Initially, I was a little shocked. Now, can you imagine if I was shocked, what were the other diners thinking? I was invited to this party and it was not really my place to invite her anywhere. To be honest, I was feeling a little uncomfortable myself. Afterall, our party was downstairs and I had to come upstairs to use the ladies room between the bar and the main dining room. This was my first time using the ladies room enfemme in a regular establishment. Later, as we wrapped up our dinner and desserts, she was downstairs at our party mingling with the other girls. She was always talking to someone. I did want to go talk to her, but never got the chance. At this point she became the pretty girl at the dance that all the boys wanted. So, don't feel sorry for her. I'm sure she was having a good time. Maybe, I could have tried harder to talk to her, but I didn't. And, as I said in my above quote, that's my fault. I really did want to find out what she was all about. However, I still feel if 95% of cd's appeared this way in public, this would do nothing to help our cause.

[Tiffany Tuesday]

This was a party?
With a public restaurant upstairs, where a tgirl from the party (or invited to the party later) had gone to eat whilst dressed as a little girl. She was served a meal, ate her meal, broke no laws, was not accosted, accosted no one else, was not hounded out by the public or managment and then danced with men at a tgirl party. And the problem is? To be honest it sounds as if no one else was concerned in the least.

Of course, how can we know exactly how she looked, but it all seems rather harmless. For those new or shy at going out dressed, there is an intitial paranoia and fear of humiliation and embarrassment where every little thing about looking right, appearing femme in public and not being associated with un-femme others, seems massively important. Been there, worn the fear, it fades with confidence.

I suggest Tri-ess never goes shopping to Camden Market, London, or the Gay Village, Manchester, The Left Bank, Paris, Ibiza or within ten miles of the Hellfire Club in NYC ... I assure you, you'd freak at what the rest of society wear and get up to everyday ... and they're considered normal :)

luvnhugz x

[pauleen]

In a perfect world nobody would judge anybody,no matter what gender, age creed ,or sexual orientation ,or handicapp, my question is WHAT IS NORMAL???? iF EVERYONE WAS THE SAME THIS WORLD WOULD BE BORING.

[KathrynW]

I was at our local Tri-Ess chapter's holiday party a couple of weeks ago and for part of our entertainment one of our CD's did a little lipsynch routine dressed as a little girl. It was very cute and everyone laughed a lot.... until as part of her "tantrum" part, she decided to lay down on her back with her legs up in the air, flashing everyone with a view of her very brief panties (and she was not wearing a gaff). The routine was not "cute" anymore at that point, and many complaints were voiced later - particularly by a number of the GG's that were present. I don't think it was this person's intent to offend, but she did.
Oh come on...you really don't think this person knew she was exposing the family jewels after laying on his back, flashing everyone while not wearing a gaff? I'd be willing to bet this person planned it and knew exactly what would happen...(just my opinion, you know) ;)

[Sophia Rearen]

Hi Girls,
Just got out of a nice lavender oil scented tub. Candles and all. Nice shave and finalized with jergens shave reducing skin moisturizer(sp?) Mmmm!

But, I digress. This has been a great thread. I respect all of your opinions that have posted here and I appreciate those who have responded. I have learned plenty through this thread. Its been a great debate. So, tomorrow, Thursday 12.15.05 I am going to give you test. If all goes well at home, I will post the test before 12:00PM Eastern U.S time. So, get to bed early. Get a good night sleep. Bring your thinking caps. Don't wait too long to take the test as I have the right to remove any material associated with the exam. If you fail to show up on time, that's your fault. You will be given a 0. You will be graded by the other members here. I will not be available to respond anymore until the test is given.

Am I crazy? Well, only 3 people here know that. Myself and two members who I have had the pleasure of meeting, BeckyAnderson and oohtammi. If you have any questions regarding my soundness, maybe they could help?

Has this thread pushed me over the edge? Probably

I'm going go now, and enjoy reading some of my other current threads that are of much lighter material.:)

Good night and Good Luck!

[Sarahgurl371]

WOW, What a thread,so many good points were made, some that I disagree with as well. I cannot even remember all the responses I might have had. I think someone wanted to her from people in the closet. I have been out of the house one time, to may car and maybe 5 miles around the block, at night. My wife knows, my parents know, and my Mother in Law knows. Do I count as in the closet? Oh yeah, two mental health professionals too.

Quick point - Sharon - right on. I have noticed here that so many respond to the "good looking" pics. And not the Not so girly looking pics, and it is saddening. That said, do I post on them either? I tend to look and see how many people have posted, and try to post on the ones where there aren't many replies, because we all came here for support. But I don't spend much time on the pics, I am here to learn, not gaze. Ever see the movie Shallow Hal, where he see's the beautiful hostess at a restauraunt, and then the magic words make him his shallow self again and she is a TG? I think that we all need to look past external beauty. Do I get trapped by beauty - absolutely.

Now the perceptions thing..... Just had a discussion with my Mother in Law tonight. She found out about me 1 1/2 years ago, as my wife needed someone to talk to about her trouble accepting me. Her response after knowing ME for 15 years .... "He is too good a person for that". So this has festered for a while. So tonight just her and I talked. I wanted her to understand that I am not the guy who stops his car on the road and steals panties off the clothesline. I wanted her to see my inner beauty. I wanted her to understand and accept me for who I am.

But why is this so important to me? Why do I need her acceptance? Because I have yet to accept myself! I have internalized MY perception of how I think society will view ME. I have been my own worst enemy, no body could be more emotionally damaging to me than ME.

I am pretty open as a person. I think that all humans (with the exception of those who hurt others) are deserving of respect and dignity. I don't care about race, sex, gender, sexual preference, sexual kinks, whatever. I don't care what you like to do. But why do I need to stress to her, whose acceptance is so important, that I am not one of those types? Still, because I haven't accepted myself. I still do not believe that I am not one of those types who I obviously view as less. Look, I am just as kinky as the next, and I appreciate a sexy, ****ty, look too. But I really don't want that image portrayed in the public. As I guy I can be a pig. I can be a pig in public. Its OK. And I guess sometimes I am a pig. I don't go around in public portraying that image either. The right tool for the right job so to speak. There are, and should be limits to acceptable social behavior. I just want the public to include my particular behavior in the acceptable list. Am I a hypocrit?

As far as why haven't I gone out in public? Why would I. I would really luv to, and probably will very soon, because I want to experience some life the way I want to experience it. But, tonight I had a two hour conversation with a person who professes to love me as her own son. I went thru the whole thing, and I have gotten pretty good at describing it recently. I poured it all out. The whole history, the TG spectrum, how I have never felt like a "normal guy". In the end, She said I should talk to her pastor, and that the congregation would pray for these demons to leave my body.

Why should I think that I have a shot at acceptance in the public, Here is a person who KNOWS me, told me I am a great person, and a good husband. I just don't measure up. Hell, I don't want to pass, (well maybe), I just want to be assured someone won't beat me up. Or deface my home. Or humiliate my wife. Or tell the neighbors. Why, cuz although I think I am on the path, I still haven't reached self acceptance, and self love.

We can't or won't give ourselves the right, and respect to be ourselves, so we look to others to tell us we are OK, so maybe we will believe it too.

But maybe this is just a bad day.

Sorry for the rant

[Sarahgurl371]

Forgot to add, she wasn't interested in borrowing any of the books I own on this stuff. She wasn't interested in learning about me prior to judging. She wasn't interesed in trying to understand the way I feel inside. In the end, her preconcieved notions won out. Sorry but I just can't live that way! I guess I tried to take someones negative perceptions, and use my persoanl relationship with them to help OUR cause. Maybe thats why we don't go out.

[Helana]

Tammy

As always you bring genuine convictions and insights which is helpful to all of us. You are right we are all trained to think we need other's acceptance of ourselves to justify our own existance but that is not true. Yes we live in a world of prejudice and standards so we have to make reasonable compromises, but that should never mean we enslave ourselves to the "norms" of society.


I have internalized MY perception of how I think society will view ME. I have been my own worst enemy, no body could be more emotionally damaging to me than ME. An excellent observation. We are so afraid of what people might think of us that we project these fears back onto ourselves. We cannot bring ourselves to say out loud "I am a crossdresser" because we ourselves can feel the in-bred prejudice we all absorb from society welling up from within us. We are all too ready to condemn ourselves.


She said I should talk to her pastor, and that the congregation would pray for these demons to leave my body
That sent a shiver down my spine and reminded me of the HBO movie - Normal. For those who have not seen this excellent film, it is about a husband who transitions after decades of marriage. When he first announces he is a transsexual, their local pastor tells the husband and wife that this is just a phase which will pass, that the husband is just confused and he can be cured. Later on the pastor tells the wife that it is OK for her to leave her husband, that God would understand and forgive her.

One crucial scene was in their local church when the wife was singing in the church choir and her husband dressed en femme sat alone at the back with their daughter. The husband was asked to leave and he did. The wife saw what was happening and walked out of the church herself turning her back on those who had turned their backs on her husband. This act transformed the ugliness of society's prejudice into the beauty of love between two people. The wife realized that her love was stronger than any public ridicule, nor did she want sympathy either. It was the point when the wife reached her own level of self-acceptance that she would stay with her husband even as he became a woman.

We cannot help but to feel elated or depressed by the views of those around us, but we should never allow their viewpoints to dictate how we should live or how we should feel about ourselves.

[susandrea]

I think that after all is said and done, the fact remains that the more outrageous CDs, DQs, She-Males, ect. are here to stay, at least during your lifetime. It's very true that some of them seem hopelessly lacking not only in style, but also in common sense. They, however, most likely think they are hot stuff and most of the world is a crashing bore. They're the Punks and the Rebels of the Transgender world. They're not a whole lot different from the "Flapper Girls" of the twenties, who went out and :eek: cut their hair, went braless, wore short skirts, and had a flask of bootleg booze tucked in their garter belts. They scandalized the more responsible folk of the day. Of course, today you have to really turn it up to be considered outrageous, and what some come up with is indeed a bit shocking. But a dose of good humor and it can be forgotten pretty quickly, after all.

Besides, if the possible abuse they have already suffered has not stopped them from going out any way they want, verbal slap-downs from well-dressed CDs aren't going to faze them in the slightest.

So. The real issue here should not be about trying to burden the "out there" crowd with the responsibility of being "decent" ambassadors for the rest. It just isn't going to happen. The real issue should be educating the public that the transgender world is extemely diverse and complicated, and that there is a huge range not only of expression, but also of mindset and intent. Also, and perhaps most importantly, that 99.99% of them are harmless to society. (Although I'm not completely positive about she-males in the porn world, but anyone who has first hand knowlege of them is in the same boat anyway-- I'm talking about the spread of STDs, ect.)

Far more dangerous than a wayward babe in a Santa dress is the occasional CD that is caught robbing a bank or molesting a child. THESE are the CDs to really worry about, because when news about them makes headlines it's REALLY a terrible blow to the entire cause.

Education is the most important step in changing society's acceptance level, not trying to police the extravagant. (Besides, they seem to pop in the movies more often, and usually in a positive way! (Like "To Wong Foo..." or "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert", and people seem to like them well enough!)

Also, there is another element that is pretty much out of anyone's control. Historically, society is more open and accepting of different types of people and ideas as long as the economy and politics are going pretty smoothly. When people start losing their jobs and there's a lot of political strife going on, things start to get ugly.

Right now we're on the edge of pending disaster due to the current Administration's hopeless mishandling of pretty much everything, especially finances. If we do enter into another depression-like era, the transgendered community will have to close ranks pretty quick and will need each other very much. Even hard won laws in effect now can be cast aside if the people in power decide "it's best".

The gay community is jumping through hoops of fire trying to KEEP hard won laws regarding marriage, only to see with dismay big religious groups try their best to knock them down and sometimes succeeding. Their power and intolerance of gays is alarming, so you can imagine that as far as the transgendered go, they care not one bit if the "guy in a dress" is in Halston or a tutu, they hate your guts and they mean business. The ENTIRE IDEA offends them, not the details.

What I'm trying to say is, before you let yourself be irritated by another's choice of apparel and try to blame them for mucking things up for everyone, stop and think of even bigger and more important issues that you all face together. Also, CDs have to get out there and REACH out, at least in the same numbers as their Drag Queen cousins before you can even begin to be critical.

I'm repeating some of Helena's reply here, because it is so impotant:



The question is which person are you?
A. Proactive. You accept yourself as a crossdresser, go out and have fun and realize that society really is not bothered about you at all. Once you confirm this yourself your self confidence increases
B. Reactive. Wait for society to become more accepting of crossdressers so that your own self-confidence can increase to the point where you feel it is safe to venture out without fear of ridicule or violence. (that will be a long wait)

There is a simple truth about perceptions. What is important is not what others think of you but what you think about yourself.

If a stranger asks if you are a crossdresser are you ready to reply yes or will you deny it?

As for the issue about dressing conservatively, it is true that if we all did this then society would have an easier time accepting us into mainstream society. But as crossdressers who have tasted life outside the box, are we really that eager to go inside the box, the land which allows ignorance and prejudice? If we dress conservatively just to make it more palatable for the general public then we are letting society define our crossdressing. It would no longer be self-expression but society's expression.

Once again I had way too much caffeine after dinner!:)

[Tamara Croft]

Hi Tamara.

I was at that party. In my opinion, this girl was inappropriately dressed for the location and the occasion. Anyone can wear what they want but there are some common sense rules that should apply.

HUgs,
Becky'Should' apply?? In this establishment, are there dress code signs up? And as for the party, was there a dress code policy?? did anyone tell the girl she should come more formal?

The more I read this thread, the more I feel I'm just talking to myself. Some just don't seem to get it. So, I've come to this conclusion, it boils down to nothing more than snobbery and if you don't fit in with a certain 'crowd' your not welcome. I hear stories about this Tri-Ess and personally what I hear about it is not good, they also have their little crowd and a way to dress and blah blah..... Maybe one day you will be that girl who was shunned, made to feel unwelcome and left on her own in a corner. Only then will you know how it feels to be alone, oh but wait, you already are that person, you are fighting society to be accepted.

Sheer snobbery... that's what this is. Not good enough to be in your little crowd. :thumbsdn:

[Helana]

I would say it is not so much snobbery but intolerance. It is an individual's choice to decide how much he wants to conform to society to make his life easier and how much he wants freedom of expression. For many CDers dressing up has a fantasy/escapism element to it and so conforming would defeat their own personal reasons for dressing in the first place.

Society hates diveresity as it is harder to understand and control so people learn to dress the same way to tell everybody that they are not dangerous to society, that they are part of the tribe. That is an old fashioned concept of what society should be about. I see our future society will be about being excited about diversity as it will allow everybody to be happier as they can live their lives they way they want to. Everybody is unique and would prefer freedom of expression, not just minorities like crossdressers.

[BeckyAnderson]

'Should' apply?? In this establishment, are there dress code signs up? And as for the party, was there a dress code policy?? did anyone tell the girl she should come more formal?


I think you may have avoided the question a bit...So, then you would apply for a job as a legal secretary dressed however you pleased? Or you would allow inappropriate exchange of words or flaming in this or any forum?


The more I read this thread, the more I feel I'm just talking to myself. Some just don't seem to get it.

You are right about that.


So, I've come to this conclusion, it boils down to nothing more than snobbery and if you don't fit in with a certain 'crowd' your not welcome. I hear stories about this Tri-Ess and personally what I hear about it is not good, they also have their little crowd and a way to dress and blah blah.....


Now who is being unfair? The problem with hearing about something and experiencing it is that it inevitably leads one to the wrong conclusion.


Sheer snobbery... that's what this is. Not good enough to be in your little crowd. :thumbsdn:

:rolleyes: :thumbsdn:

[Amelie]

OK Tamara might not have had experience with Tri-Ess, but I have,

I went to a bar called the Fabric Factory in Manhattan. It had different types of CDs. One group was the hooker CDs, they were there for the money, there were young Cds looking for fun and there were what I call the downtown CDs, sort of like Boy George or Pete Burns, not many of these girls were there. And also there was always a group of Tri-Ess CDs that for the most part kept to themselves. But sometimes one of them would talk to me, they would talk about how others are hurting the image of straight Cds, this included gay Cds, drag queens and hooker Cds, little did they know that I was a gay CD. And when they found out that I was gay, they no longer would talk to me which was OK with me. Most of these Cds came from the suburbs and also brought their suburban racists ideas with them, with their off color remarks and jokes. And from what I read in this forum the Tri-Ess types haven’t changed, they still want to impose their rules on everyone, just read the posts in this thread and you will se what I mean.

As far as saying without rules there will be kaos, this is a load of crap, we are talking about wearing women’s clothes, there won’t be any kaos caused from this.

As I said before, can anyone here who wants rules on how one should dress tell us what is the appropriate way to dress and what is not the right way to dress. Tell us so we can see what members here are wrong in the way they dress. If there is a right and wrong way, tell us what is the wrong way, no one yet has said what is wrong except for the poor CD dressed as a little girl. And even she isn’t wrong, go do a search for the band Malice Mizer, Mana in particular. There you will see men dressed as little girls, yet they are more beautiful than the members here that are complaining about how we should dress properly to the public.

If Cds here want rules on how others should dress then they should follow societies rules and not dress at all, because from what I hear on this forum, society doesn’t want any of you to dress as women, so why don’t the intolerant ones here follow societies rules and stop dressing all together, maybe then you can leave the dressing to the Cds who want to have fun.

Some here also say that there is a time and place to dress the way they want,, BS. I dress punk/goth all the time. I dress this way whether I go to a goth club, a straight disco, a gay club, the grocery store, my friends homes, I go everywhere dressed this way,. I don’t hide who I am, there are no rules to how I want to look and I am especially not going to listen to a bunch of suburban queens telling me there is a time and place to dress the way I want. I don’t listen to society and I am not going to listen to this forum on how I should dress or conduct myself in public. It is none of your business how I act. Everyone on this forum conducts themselves in the way they want to and it is not up to others here to say what is the right or wrong way to live Whatever makes one happy is all that matters, not what others think.

[KathrynW]

'Should' apply?? In this establishment, are there dress code signs up? And as for the party, was there a dress code policy?? did anyone tell the girl she should come more formal?
Is there a need for signs to be posted or a personal note to be given to this person instructing them on the decent and respectable way to dress at this type of function? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Any adult (TG or NOT) if it's NOT a costume party, ;) should NOT be wearing a little girl's party dress in public! Does it really take a brain surgeon to figure that one out? When does some ADULT COMMON SENSE kick in here? I couldn't care less if this person dresses up like like little Bo Peep, Kermit the Frog, or Mahatma Gandhi in their own home, but in a public restaurant...this is NOT APROPRIATE!

The more I read this thread, the more I feel I'm just talking to myself. Some just don't seem to get it.
Frankly...I'm kinda wondering when you're going to "get it". ;)

[Amelie]

Is there a need for signs to be posted or a personal note to be given to this person instructing them on the decent and respectable way to dress at this type of function? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Any adult (TG or NOT) if it's NOT a costume party, ;) should NOT be wearing a little girl's party dress in public! Does it really take a brain surgeon to figure that one out? When does some ADULT COMMON SENSE kick in here? I couldn't care less if this person dresses up like like little Bo Peep, Kermit the Frog, or Mahatma Gandhi in their own home, but in a public restaurant...this is NOT APROPRIATE!

Frankly...I'm kinda wondering when you're going to "get it". ;)


Let's just say for arguements sake, that the guy dressing as a little girl is wrong and we all agree.

Now, most of society says that it is wrong for any man to dress in women's clothes, are you Kathryn or anyone else here going to listen to the majority of society and stop dressing as a woman? I think not. Who decides what is right or wrong, society, a majority of CDs, Tri-Ess? Who?

And where is the line drawn on what is right and what is wrong? I would like to hear more examples of what is the wrong way to dress out in the public view, not just the example of this guy in girls clothes. There can't enough people like him in the world to damage the CD 'Image".

[BeckyAnderson]

Some here also say that there is a time and place to dress the way they want,, BS. I dress punk/goth all the time. I dress this way whether I go to a goth club, a straight disco, a gay club, the grocery store, my friends homes, I go everywhere dressed this way,. I don’t hide who I am, there are no rules to how I want to look and I am especially not going to listen to a bunch of suburban queens telling me there is a time and place to dress the way I want. I don’t listen to society and I am not going to listen to this forum on how I should dress or conduct myself in public. It is none of your business how I act. Everyone on this forum conducts themselves in the way they want to and it is not up to others here to say what is the right or wrong way to live Whatever makes one happy is all that matters, not what others think.

Perhaps in your eyes it is BS but in the eyes of almost everyone else it's certainly not BS.

Do I detect a bit of hypocticical thinking here? Let's see....This started because some feel that the "little girl was inappropriately dressed." And it has now advanced to, "BS" and "I am especially not going to listen to a bunch of suburban queens?" I get the impression that it's okay for you to voice our opinion but it's not okay for "a bunch of suburban queens" to voice theirs?

When we start using terms like BS and "a bunch of suburban queens" in our posts then it would seem that it is beginning to approach a point of flaming and hard feelings. It's probably time to turn down the burners a little bit and let things cool some. I think a good place to leave this is: you are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else entitled to theirs. You are not wrong in dressing Goth and the "suburban queens" are not wrong in the way they dress. To coin a few cliche's, "to each his own" and "variety is the spice of life."

[Amelie]

Perhaps in your eyes it is BS but in the eyes of almost everyone else it's certainly not BS.

Do I detect a bit of hypocticical thinking here? Let's see....This started because some feel that the "little girl was inappropriately dressed." And it has now advanced to, "BS" and "I am especially not going to listen to a bunch of suburban queens?" I get the impression that it's okay for you to voice our opinion but it's not okay for "a bunch of suburban queens" to voice theirs?

When we start using terms like BS and "a bunch of suburban queens" in our posts then it would seem that it is beginning to approach a point of flaming and hard feelings. It's probably time to turn down the burners a little bit and let things cool some. I think a good place to leave this is: you are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else entitled to theirs. You are not wrong in dressing Goth and the "suburban queens" are not wrong in the way they dress. To coin a few cliche's, "to each his own" and "variety is the spice of life."


I agree, now if that last line you said about to each his own was used right from the start of this thread, none of this would have been said. But people here want to impose rules of dress on others. it is not an opinion when some says how others should dress, they croos the line of opinion when they say that others are wrong in the way they dress.

[KathrynW]

I would like to hear more examples of what is the wrong way to dress out in the public view, not just the example of this guy in girls clothes.
Amelie, I really don't think anything that anyone says here will relate to you in your personal situation and location. You're obviously aware that people do whatever they damn well please in NYC, and nobody even gives them a second glance. However, as I'm sure you're also aware...it is not OK to dress however you want, whenever you want, in other parts of the country. Sometimes I think people who've never lived anywhere other than big cities simply don't get this.
Obviously, you'll get a thousand different examples/opinions in response to this post. Sure...everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
IMHO, unless a person can pass 100% undetected as female, they shouldn't CD in public...period. If you can't pass 100% and still want to push the envelope...be prepared to deal with the consequences (if there are any) of your actions. That's my story, and I'm stickin to it. ;)

[Amelie]

Amelie, I really don't think anything that anyone says here will relate to you in your personal situation and location. You're obviously aware that people do whatever they damn well please in NYC, and nobody even gives them a second glance. However, as I'm sure you're also aware...it is not OK to dress however you want, whenever you want, in other parts of the country. Sometimes I think people who've never lived anywhere other than big cities simply don't get this.
Obviously, you'll get a thousand different examples/opinions in response to this post. Sure...everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
IMHO, unless a person can pass 100% undetected as female, they shouldn't CD in public...period. If you can't pass 100% and still want to push the envelope...be prepared to deal with the consequences (if there are any) of your actions. That's my story, and I'm stickin to it. ;)

I understand what your opinion that somebody should be 100% passable before going out, this is your opinion and that is fine, my only problem is when some try to tell others how they should dress. If someone is brave enough to go out in any way they want, then they should not be told by us that they are wrong to do this, and somehow they are hurting "our" image. I just don't feel that it is our place to tell others how they should dress.

I used to live in NYC, I now live in Baltimore. I am not attacking you when I say this but I don't believe that it is easier here for me to go out than where you live(the South). I live in a hood that has homeboys selling drugs on the corners of the area. Sometimes these guys walk around in packs and I bump into them many times. These guys are not tolerant towards CDs, in fact these are the guys who chased the red necks out of the cities. These guys made a lot of white people run into the suburbs. I have to find a way to live with these guys, I have to learn to adapt to them being around, I can't hide from them. I know that red neck areas are tough places to live, but I can't believe that they are are rougher that having drug dealers sitting on the front steps.

[DonnaT]

Everyone should be able to dress anywhere, anyway they want and us CDs on this forum have no say on how others can dress, or the day will come when others will tell you how to dress and try to totally stop your dressing as a woman.

I agree with Amelie. As long as it's not indecent (bits showing, etc.).

Look, cross dressing takes on many different variations, from drag queens, to conservative CDs to, underdressers, to little girls. None of us have the right to deny anyone else their right to what makes them happy.

You don't have to like it, don't have to accept it, don't have to endorse it, etc. Hey, that sounds like some of the things others may be say about us!

Oh, and as for Grayson Perry, if you haven't heard of him, he's from the UK and has even met the queen in his little girl outfit. At least he's out there fighting for the rights of ALL TGs, not just those with his fashion sense.

[Tamara Croft]

IMHO, unless a person can pass 100% undetected as female, they shouldn't CD in public...period. If you can't pass 100% and still want to push the envelope...be prepared to deal with the consequences (if there are any) of your actions. That's my story, and I'm stickin to it. ;) Well going on your last post to me and this quote above, I can now see why it is unacceptable in your eyes why someone shouldn't go out dressed the way they want to...... unbelievable!!! What if they don't want to 'pass' and just like wearing womens clothes? Should they also stay inside because they will 'damage' the CD image?

Amelie, I think only you and I actually understand and it seems that we don't, we are wrong, they are right and we are probably damaging their 'image' shame on us eh? ;)

[susandrea]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=#8b0000]IMHO, unless a person can pass 100% undetected as female, they shouldn't CD in public...period. If you can't pass 100% and still want to push the envelope...be prepared to deal with the consequences (if there are any) of your actions. That's my story, and I'm stickin to it. ;)

Unless you can pass 100%??? Are you serious?

That would put 99.99% of all CDs right back in the closet.

I may be wrong, but the conceit that CDs have about passing-- which after all is technically a deception-- is often exaggerated to bolster confidence, and that's just fine.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but I'd bet quite a lot of money that what is considered "passing" by most CDS is really more like "tolerance" or simply "not paying attention", and, quite frankly, "politeness" and even "not giving a shit". The way I myself behave around a CD, either near one or actually talking to one, is to be completely natural and treat them exactly as I would a woman, so I can imagine they leave me thinking they have passed. That's my intention!

Any half-way savvy adult can figure out something is up if they spend enough time around a CD, especially if they talk to each other. Even more so if the CD is a straight male who spends some amount of time as a male and goes back and forth. If the said adult is well-mannered, they most likely won't let on that they know, or at least try not to. A CD who is out there a lot can probably pick up that flicker of recognition and appreciates it if it is then ignored. I honestly think the majority of the public out there-- even if it's a thin majority-- wouldn't want to make a CD feel badly. And if detection is obvious, I bet it's far more likely that the adults are embarrassed of their own awkwardness with the situation (usually because the CD suddenly appeared without advance notice) than because they have recongnized the CD and want them to know it. Of course, ill-mannered "adults" are another story. And even of those who are unapproving, most would be reluctant to be confrontational in person, prefering to voice their opinions elsewhere.

Those CDs who are naturally very femme due to genetic chemistry (and therefore have a better chance of passing) would most likely turn up later as a she-male, a transexual, or a "serious" drag queen. Even the ones that are femme 24/7 have issues with passing 100%!!! And then there are a decent percentage of those who really don't care to go to extremes to try and pass because the stress of it would put a damper on their freedom.

I think it's terribly sad and detrimental to require a CD to pass 100% before they are "allowed out" into the world. If you think like that, then you'd have to send home half the population for some breach of ethics in their appearance!

[Tiffany Tuesday]

If you can't pass 100% and still want to push the envelope...be prepared to deal with the consequences (if there are any) of your actions. That's my story, and I'm stickin to it. ;)


I think we should be proud of ourselves as women (part time, wanna be, real or wherever you fall in the femme spectrum), because men would have gone to war, we on the otherhand right here right now, strangely peculiarly and brilliantly actually do have a consensus.

Ref Sohia's original point #3
How does this draft sound to everyone:

It is advisable to consider the suitability of what you wear, so at your own risk wear what you want, provided it does not unreasonably harm others.


All we need are two more to lay down our Three Rules of Transbotics ... puh-leese, i am joking to try and get everyone hugging again :) oh and i promise to try and be all manly and never ever call Kathryn "honey" again .. how about "sweetcakes"?

luvnhugz x

[Wendy me]

ok 6 pages long heres what i think how could we as a group not belive that peoples perceptions have not changed and be thinking on how to change them .. when in fact it is so us that is the problme we prejudge each outher
on passable or closeted to what crossdressing meens to us and how every one should be on your page with you ....hell girls perceptions people have of us changeing?? lets stop being silly here so true we as a group of people have got to accpte and understand that each one of us is so much the same but so diffrent at the same time...when we prejudge each outher we put up walls between each outher no wonder people don't get us we don't get ourselves .....


on the same page ??? hell we are not even drinking out of the same six pack....

[uknowhoo]

Yeah, what Wendy said.

I gotta say, Tamara. I'm a bit taken aback at your comment that only you and Amelie get it. I won't reiterate where I stand on this whole deal, but I can refer you to my post #45. Others here, including Susandrea and Helana, and many, many others have offered thoughtful consideration, and most maintain basically the same position as you. I don't know if you've had a chance to go back and review the previos posts or not. I expect very few, if any, share Kathryn's viewoint. So please don't project that out on the rest of us. To be sure, there are some "suburban queens" whose judgement and disdain are regrettable, as well. But it seems to me that most all of us agree that we all need to accept ourselves and others and that Cders of whatever stripe have the right to dress and act however they wish. To the extent some have a hard time accepting that, is their problem. Even most who are judgemental realize it, and are working on acceptance of others, as well as themselves.

Tammi

[Tiffany Tuesday]

maybe Wendy,

everyone has a view, right or wrong, but it seems to me from reading all the posts again that there is a convergance of views.

Male conditioning can make it hard to empathise with others views, as true sisters and women I think all the posters here have actually tempered their views, such that there really is a qualified consensus.

luvnhugz x

[Sam-antha]

It is a helluva long thread and it sort of needs reading, I do not remember being in it.
During the first glance through I stick up against Helena...
That girl speaks of "Proactive dressers", and "Reactive dressers".
Me ? I am an "active" dresser ( not a "Welsh dresser") and go-er outer whenever I can, which is not nearly often enough.
That being so, it follows that I want to pass, or if read, not to be stared at for the whatever...Most certainly I want to pass in my immediate neighbourhood.
I wanna be "she" outside.
I can be exhibitionist at home. That was called "narcisstic" once upon a time, me and my mirror.....we do have fun together, and the bad taste that I exhibit to myself is mine. Which is wher I keep it.

[susandrea]

That girl speaks of "Proactive dressers", and "Reactive dressers".
Me ? I am an "active" dresser ( not a "Welsh dresser") and go-er outer whenever I can, which is not nearly often enough.


That's exactly what is meant by "Proactive". Active. :) :thumbsup:

[Sophia Rearen]

An Acceptance Test

This is a test of you, and for all of us who are CD/TG/TV or Whatever
Rules:
No panning down just yet. That's cheating. You will be given all the time you want. All you need is an open mind, honesty, this forum, a computer and keyboard.
The only answers are A,B and Both. Questions 1-10 are worth 5 points each. The essay (your reply post) is worth 50 points. Extra credit 5 points.
About the photos:
Both girls' had the same editing. I used zoom, crop and resizing. That is it.
The girl on the Left is Sophia A. The girl on the Right will be referred to as Sophia B
A little bit about the girls':
Sophia A has just recently returned from a nice evening out at a nice restaurant. She would like to go again this weekend. The restaurant is in a small town. The average dinner entree' is $20-28, drinks on average are $ 7-8 She wore this dress and would like to wear something similarly nice the next time.
Sophia B has not been out. She would, however, like to. In fact she's looking to go out tomorrow. If, all goes well, she would like to go to the same restaurant that her friend, Sophia A, has told her so much about.
Both girls are wearing the same makeup and roughly the same amount. It was an evening look. And, since the photos don't show it, they both have no body hair, well, almost none.
Are you ready?
In the words of one of my favorite singer / songwriters, Sarah MacLaughlin, "hold on, hold on to yourself, this is going to hurt like hell".
1) You're out for a quiet dinner with your SO and you see Sophia sitting alone. Which one would likely offend you the most?
A, B, Both
2) You're alone, and you're a closet CD. You see this girl dining alone in the restaurant described above. You have to make Sophia feel better. Which girl would you most likely sit with?
A, B, Both
3) Which girl would you most likely take out to the restaurant?
A, B, Both
4) If you had to ask for directions, which girl would you likely approach?
A, B, Both
5) You work for a law firm in a medium sized city. It's your responsibility to hire a new para-legal. The company you work for is TG friendly. Both girls have the same credentials. Which one is a better fit for your company, and, thereby your career?
A, B, Both
6) You're a CD on the road to self-acceptance. You're married and have children. You also haven't told anyone, so, you're in the closet. You have committed yourself to telling your wife. At the same time, you would like to take your first steps out. You thought the start of the New Year would be a good time to share with the world, who you really are. It's Christmas Eve, you and your family go to church for services. Sitting in the middle of the church by herself, is girl A or B. Which girl hurts your efforts and desire to get out the most?
A, B, Both
7) You are a closeted CD. Your wife does not know. You take her and her parents out for lunch and a celebration. The restaurant is located in a mall. You and your wife are going shopping for a new dress for her after lunch. It was your intention to somehow, tell your wife, while shopping, that you would like a new dress yourself, because you are a CD on the road to self-acceptance. But, at the restaurant, quite visible for all to see is girl A or B.
Which girl at the restaurant would you most likely shed from your wife and in-laws?
A, B, Both
8) You are a CD who has accepted herself for who she is. Your family is aware of this side of you. It's not flaunted in their faces, but it's talked about politely within the household. You do go out. When you do, you try to present yourself more like girl A. You take your family to your child's school play. You are not enfemme. However, another dad is. Is it girl A or B who would embarrass you and your family more?
A, B, Both
9) You are a CD who has accepted herself for who she is. Your family is aware of this side of you. It's not flaunted in their faces, but it's talked about politely within the family. You do go out. When you do, you try to present yourself more like girl B. You take your family to your child's school play. You are not enfemme. However, another dad is. Is it girl A or B who embarrass you and your family more?
A, B, Both
10) What girl would you take home to mother? And say, "Mom/Mum I'd like you to meet my girlfriend, Sophia"
A, B, Both
Short essay (reply post). Compare and contrast what the girls' appearance may have on society How might the girls' appearance affect perception? And what is the long term, if any, affects as it pertains to the closeted CD?
Extra Credit*
Ask and answer your own question. Please be respectful. Humor is always appreciated.
Good Luck!
Respectfully Submitted,
Sophia A & B

[Amelie]

1)-I can’t answer, there is no option for the word neither. I have seen all types of Cds and none have offended me.


2)-I can’t answer, I am not a closet CD so I can’t say how a closet CD would answer this question.

3)-Again, I can’t answer because I don’t know what either CD is like, I just don’t go with anyone out to eat. I want to go with someone that has similar interests as myself. So I would have to talk to the person before I would go out with them. If they are similar to me then the look doesn’t matter.

4)-Both


5)-I can’t answer, I just never been in this situation, I can’t even imagine being in this position.

6)-I’m sorry but I can’t answer I would never be in this kind of position in the first place. Neither would hurt my position in life, I make my own way in life others can’t hurt my “image”.

7)-Again, I can’t answer , these are situations that I have never been in, I have no wife or family.


8)-Again, this is a family situation , I’ll leave it to family people to answer.

9)-Seems the same as question 8

10)-Neither, I usually don’t bring people home to mom.




I have never said that one must do the things that you have mentioned. I have said that we can not tell others how they should live their lives. Whether I want to hang out with either of the two Sophia’s is my choice. It is quite another thing if I was to tell any of the Sophia’s that she is dressing wrong and that she is hurting my image. I have prejudices, I am not open to everyone. Yes I will be more open to a goth than a CD from this forum. A goth will have more in common with me, more than just clothes. I have no right to tell either Sophia’s how to dress, it is not my place or is it for any one on this forum to say how any of the two Sophia’s should dress, it is none of your business. If I want to be friendly to one person and not the other then this is my personal choice, I am not going to tell what any of them should do in their lives it is none of my business.

I have in my life hung out with what could be described outlandish Cds and also non-Cds. What they wore had no effect on me, I could care less. And yes, I did bring some of these people home to meet mom. I have hung out with bald headed Cds, Cds with outrageous S&M outfits, never did it bother me. Clothes and looks are not a factor to me. Now, words that is another story.

If someone uses words that seem like they might harm a segment of the CD community then I will use the same types of harmful words right back at them. If someone, like the first few posts in this thread say that how others dress are somehow hurting their image then I will respond, maybe even harshly. These other people are doing no wrong in the way they dress, they are not hurting your image, and it is wrong to tell others that how they dress is the wrong way.

Also I am very shocked by some of these responses,. Even one from an old member who should by now know better. We are in no position to judge others, we have no right in doing so. I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but it is none of your business on how someone wants to dress, and this isn’t an opinion, this is the way it should be, so get over it. These other people are not going away, just live your life the way you want and let them live the way they want, It doesn’t take a collage education to know this.

[Sophia Rearen]

If someone uses words that seem like they might harm a segment of the CD community then I will use the same types of harmful words right back at them. If someone, like the first few posts in this thread say that how others dress are somehow hurting their image then I will respond, maybe even harshly. These other people are doing no wrong in the way they dress, they are not hurting your image, and it is wrong to tell others that how they dress is the wrong way.


Hi Amelie,
I feel it is words, both spoken and unspoken that keep many closeted CD's in the closet. Probably because of fear. You have 0. Many, many do. It is my belief that image affects perception. So, if the majority of the CD's that go out are misunderstood by the image they portray then negative perception occurs. And negative perception leads to negative words, and negative words lead to fear, and fear of the unknown. And fear of the unknown keeps the closeted CD in the closet. It's a horrible circle. Remember one of my original points of this thread was to get the closeted CD out. You are already out and I thank you for being you. The world certainly would be a little less colorful without the Amelies of the world.:)

[Tamara Croft]

Yeah, what Wendy said.

I gotta say, Tamara. I'm a bit taken aback at your comment that only you and Amelie get it. I won't reiterate where I stand on this whole deal, but I can refer you to my post #45. Others here, including Susandrea and Helana, and many, many others have offered thoughtful consideration, and most maintain basically the same position as you. TammiYes, sorry, I was at the time focusing on the latter few posts that Amelie and I have been posting ;) But you are right, there are many here who share the same views as Amelie and I, so I apologise if I left those you have named out ;) And yeah, what Wendy said!!! See, I said, play nice or I'll set Wendy on you... :p

[Tiffany Tuesday]

Tgirls out and about ... even in catholic land downtown Ibiza this priest never turned a hair ... tho' he did look kinda brassed off :D

ps i cannot show what the gay guys in our company did for their piccies with him, but they left a flower there. Check out where the brass is worn and shiny, and you just know everyone who has a pulse and a cam passes this guy and goes hey i've a giggle of an idea ...

btw sowee for not following your lead Sophia, but i just cannot relate to those questions, as those issues just don't arise 4 me. tbh my instant reaction to your two CD's is, these girls could so easily improve how they look. And would choose B because she definitely looks off this planet happy with life and that is so much more attractive in a person.

luvnstuff xx

[KathrynW]

I used to live in NYC, I now live in Baltimore. I am not attacking you when I say this but I don't believe that it is easier here for me to go out than where you live(the South). I live in a hood that has homeboys selling drugs on the corners of the area. Sometimes these guys walk around in packs and I bump into them many times. These guys are not tolerant towards CDs, in fact these are the guys who chased the red necks out of the cities. These guys made a lot of white people run into the suburbs. I have to find a way to live with these guys, I have to learn to adapt to them being around, I can't hide from them. I know that red neck areas are tough places to live, but I can't believe that they are are rougher that having drug dealers sitting on the front steps.
Amelie, I'm going to be real honest with you, ok? If you crossdressed in any sort of punk/goth/whatever outfit in public in the area where I live in Arkansas (and many other areas of the South & Midwest)...it's very likely that you'd be sucking your Christmas dinner thru a straw in the ICU if you didn't end up in a body bag. Trust me, there are MAJOR differences in your geographic location as far as tolerance for cd's.

[KathrynW]

I think it's terribly sad and detrimental to require a CD to pass 100% before they are "allowed out" into the world. If you think like that, then you'd have to send home half the population for some breach of ethics in their appearance!
I personally don't care what anyone does. I said "IMHO". It's real simple...
If you can't pass, and you want to be in the public eye, then accept whatever consequences (IF ANY) that come with your decision to go out.

[Tamara Croft]

I personally don't care what anyone does. I said "IMHO". It's real simple...
If you can't pass, and you want to be in the public eye, then accept whatever consequences (IF ANY) that come with your decision to go out.IMHO, with an attitude like yours, it's real simple to see why society is unaccepting, because people like you make it even harder.

And those 2 pictures posted, on the left, you have beard shadow, on the right, you emphasized it......

I have nothing else to add, this thread is out of control...... I said my bit, now I'm done.

[Stelli]

is unlimited. It's nice to have moralizing discussion and form opinion about what is societably acceptable. I do stand on this as simple: You wish to wear someting because it gives you gender role. You may from any case wear whatever to make your personal statement. Your personal statement can cause various reactions. More unortodox you are more reaction you gonna cause. The choice is subject to the opinion of many in your environment. Some people love to shock some people want to blend. It is wrong in my opinion to judge one statement from the moral of another. But this is just advice not an political action. I understand that there is many CDers that do not venture our because they cannot see themselves passable in public yet, normally, want to enjoy the benefit of the gender role. On other hand, Amelie for example has CD as lifestyle. I wish I could do it in this way, but this may jeopardize my other life activities. Lifestyle is trade-off of the situation where you are. Question here is "what is you are not passable yet you want to express yourself in public". And I give myself an answer straight away: "if you can bear the consequences - why on the earth not?" You can be unortodox within your gender role that matches your sex as much as you can be unortodox from the gender role that dismatches your sex. So what? Are you different than others? I do not think so. Ma, look there - a lady with beard! Said the child. So innocent so true so unortodox. You wish to be **** in public, public will treat you as ****. You wish to be lady in public, public will treat you as lady. You want to release your breaks, they may find you funny and good party entertainer. Why moralizing about expressions in the place that want to break morals about expressions. You have accepted this in the first place. So keep the mind open. Mind is so inventive about possible understanding. I believe that we want to preserve old fashioned world, the world that there are clear gender roles. Why on the earth you would find attractive to take gender role in the world that doesnot care about gender roles? In my understanding this is pure nonsense. On the contrary if I dress as lady (note that I did not say dressed as girl) I want to be treated as lady, because I feel and am all lady and in this world I wish to be a gentleman that would treat me as lady. Yet again the gentleman doesnot mean to be of a particular sex - it's also a gender role. Thus if you wish to be pigtailed girl, with short skirt and peeping kickers, fashioned with the beard of masculinity it only says that you wish to be treated as infantile girl with hungry obsession of your sex and that you are man with this "obsession". As parent, if I encounter such person I'd give them lesson. If you are misbehaving kid, you gonna be treated as misbehaved kid. I do not find anything wrong with that on the contrary, this is where consequence shows what you wish to achieve and you get attention you wish for. To make things even more ridicule I known stories of old lady (with appropriate sex) that would wander almost naked to the street and asked why she are doing so she would say: "I am not naked I have put my hat on." Indeed she would completely neglect the fact that she did not wear anything below the hat. We are civilized people. We understand that in our ranks we nurture various minds, support them, make them being productive or at least bearable. Some of us are crazy, some of us highly following the civilization rules of being decent human beings. Some of us with very specific needs. Among everything us that would like to be in gender role that was not given by our sex. Choice is yours, if you wish to react on statement - it is your freedom. If you wish to make statement it is again your freedom. At least you have freedom. Maybe visit to 3s parties (never been to one but from different readings I doubt I would enjoy this expression) is about expression and being tilted asks for open mind. Thus the question here is: Do you have open mind?

I love Amelie since I have met her here. She has her statement, expression and emotion that goes with it. And the no less phylosophy. If you attack her for her understanding you'd better share her life first. Then you judge. I am not pro schocking persons but I do understand them. I am not against moralizing because this would ruin the gender bound world. So where we would be? Live and let live. You have right to react to something you cannot accept yourself but do you have right to impose your freedom over the freedom of others? It is democracy that gives the right to impose freedom of majority over freedom of minority and we are subscribers to that fundamental concept.

This or that argument. It is just a vote in the sea of opinions.

[KathrynW]

IMHO, with an attitude like yours, it's real simple to see why society is unaccepting, because people like you make it even harder.
Tamara ~ Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, as well as I am to mine. You think I'm unaccepting? Sorry to burst your (and others) bubble(s)...but I live in the real world, not some fantasy world. And...nobody said it was easy... ;)

[KathrynW]

And I give myself an answer straight away: "if you can bear the consequences - why on the earth not?"
Stelli just nailed the most TRUE statement in this entire thread. The key word here is "IF". IF you can bear the consequences... Just think carefully about the meaning of the word IF here. ;)

[BeckyAnderson]

IMHO, with an attitude like yours, it's real simple to see why society is unaccepting, because people like you make it even harder.

I have nothing else to add, this thread is out of control...... I said my bit, now I'm done.

It's really a shame that such an interesting thread can deteriorate like this. It seems the very thing we are talking about is happening here in a different form. Just as there is such a divergence in crossdressing so it is with opinions. If we shouldn't be forcing others to dress in some particular way why then are we trying so hard to convince others that one point view is correct and the other isn't?

[uknowhoo]

Tamara, apology accepted, no problem.

This thread has inspired not only some very good and insighful commentary, but some heated emotions as well. At the end of the day, we're all in the same big boat, so to quote Rodney King again, "can't we all just get along?" I'm sure the answer to that is yes, as long as we can agree to disagree on some things, but agree to try to accept others and ourselves.

Sorry if I'm too much of a Polyanna, but that's me.

Hugs all,

Tammi

[Stephenie]

I've read most of the post on this thread and I have a hard time with some of them. Here we are dressing in a way that sociaty thinks is abnormal-wrong-strange-unacceptable, We feel we should be able to if we want and that others should accept us and allow us this right. Then turn around and try and tell others how they should dress because we feel that the way they are dressed is abnormal-wrong-strange-unacceptable.

How can we expect others to accept us if we don't accept others. If we believe that it is okay for us to go ugainst the norm how can we tell some one else that it is not. If you draw a line at some point then others well move it. So if it is not unlaw or done to hurt then what right do you have to object. Because you feel that your rights are more important or because you think that what? Please let me know why you should be able to tell some one else what they can and can not wear in public.

Besides the more out ragous others dress the more normal I look.

[Wendy me]

ok last thought maybe....should we not put forth the time to change peoples minds and perceptions in the world outside of ours?? we can talk abought it here we can voice our thoughts here, we can go through greate lenths here to make our point ... but untill we speak to just one person abought what we are and what we do in a postive way then we waste a lot of effort because show me just one person here that you realy need to belive that we need to change peoples preceptions ....now just do it if only one person you talk to that's one less person to get to change their perception of us....

[Sophia Rearen]

Can anyone explain to me what a goth is and believes in? I'm probably Mr&Mrs (ha) average american. Advertisers and marketing groups love me. I get the feeling that gothers are; people hating, demon loving, death wishing, self removed, lawyer's wife killing, attention starved.....
-OR- are they a group of people whos main purpose is to raise money for breast cancer awareness?
I honestly don't know!
Perhaps because I never had a conversation with one.
Why? Probably because I am not comfortable.
It's something about there appearance that prohibits me.

[KathrynW]

Can anyone explain to me what a goth is and believes in?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goth

[Amelie]

Can anyone explain to me what a goth is and believes in? I'm probably Mr&Mrs (ha) average american. Advertisers and marketing groups love me. I get the feeling that gothers are; people hating, demon loving, death wishing, self removed, lawyer's wife killing, attention starved.....
-OR- are they a group of people whos main purpose is to raise money for breast cancer awareness?
I honestly don't know!
Perhaps because I never had a conversation with one.
Why? Probably because I am not comfortable.
It's something about there appearance that prohibits me.


A goth is a label that can have as many different explanations as there are people, everyone can have a different view as to what a goth is. The same can be said for Cds, there can be many explanations as to what a CD is. Just read this thread you will see different views on what a Cd is.

As far as you not being comfortable talking to a goth because of their appearance well that is because of your own fears and ignorance. This is what I was trying to explain all along in this thread, I do not care what other people wear, but you and some others here, the wearing of clothes makes all the difference in the world. To you and some others here it seems like clothes make the person and not what is on the inside of the person. I feel bad for people like you who fear the clothes that someone wears.

I am just glad that I am not like you and some others here, I will not judge others because of their clothes.
One day someone will judge you lot and you people will be making cry baby posts on how society is so mean, well, some of you here deserve all you get from society. You deserve to go into the closet.

And Becky it isn’t a matter of different views. When one person makes a rule to others on how they should dress, well this is wrong, this is not an opinion. What if I said something like straight people are wrong to crossdress, it hurts my image as a gay CD. I feel that only gay men should be allowed to dress as women. This wouldn’t be considered an opinion, this would be wrong to say, because I can’t make rules that say that straights shouldn’t crossdress, just like others here shouldn’t make rules on how others should dress

[sherri]

Of course we all have the right to dress as we wish (unless there's a law against crossdressing where you live). This is a no brainer.

Of course some people are going to react negatively to a crossdresser in public, whether they say anything or not, regardless of what that CD is wearing. And of course most people are going to view conservative attire as more appropriate than sexy or goth or whatever. (By the way, there's a difference between sexy and ****ty.)

To me, this whole debate hinges upon acceptance - personal acceptance and acceptance as a collective subset of our society. If acceptance matters to you personally - whether that acceptance would be from society in general or just your peers - then you'll dress and conduct yourself accordingly. If it doesn't matter to you, then you have only your own drum to dance to.

But I'm pretty sure that most of us would, given a choice, like to be able to circulate like any other person in our society without fear of reprisal or rejection based merely on our appearance. Toward that end then, it behooves all of us to think of ourselves as ambassadors of a cultural minority - in other words, furthering our cause. This does not mean that we can't express ourselves as individuals; it does mean that we have to go to extra lengths to have positive encounters with the rest of the populace wherever and whenever possible.

Now, I have no idea how Amelie would go about having positive encounters with gangstas in Baltimore. I absolutely know that outing myself in my small, redneck community would be social and financial suicide, and since I don't relish the idea of being treated like a leper, I limit my outings to more suitable environments. I do not let prejudice keep me in the closet, but I choose my battles, so to speak. I think that's an important part of satisfying my urge and doing my small part for the cause.

I believe the most important aspect of having good experiences has to do with the impressions we make, and that has more to do with my attitude and appearance than with how I dress. The goal, I think, is to be perceived as attractive.

What I mean is, if I don't go to the trouble to learn how to do makeup and wear a decent wig and coordinate my outfit, then I'm going to look like a joke. And if I don't smile and be nice and be friendly and act confident, then people are going to wonder if I'm a weirdo. I don't know how Amelie dresses, but I know by her avatar pics that she is attractive, and I think that's all it takes. She can wear black clothes and metal pins to her heart's content and still be attractive.

There are of course exceptions to every rule. If I decide to wear a baby girl costume to a restaurant or hotel, I'm just going to assume that everybody else will think I'm mentally ill.

[KathrynW]

To me, this whole debate hinges upon acceptance - personal acceptance and acceptance as a collective subset of our society. If acceptance matters to you personally - whether that acceptance would be from society in general or just your peers - then you'll dress and conduct yourself accordingly. If it doesn't matter to you, then you have only your own drum to dance to.
That's an excellent comment and makes perfect sense..."you have only your own drum to dance to". I like that...;)

[Amelie]

Well said Sheri


Well that's it for me, I'm out of this thread, i have no more words left, I used them all up.

[Sophia Rearen]

A goth is a label that can have as many different explanations as there are people, everyone can have a different view as to what a goth is. The same can be said for Cds, there can be many explanations as to what a CD is. Just read this thread you will see different views on what a Cd is. This is true,but I stll know nothing about them.

As far as you not being comfortable talking to a goth because of their appearance well that is because of your own fears and ignorance. Again, this is true. And this is what i've been trying to say all along in this thread. So, I take it that since your so non-judgemental and you're a woman of your words, you had a talk with the guys in your neighborhood, aka drug dealers, since the inception of this thread? And you know they are intolerant of CD's because you invited them over for lunch or did you shovel the snow off their corner for them?This is what I was trying to explain all along in this thread, I do not care what other people wear, but you and some others here, the wearing of clothes makes all the difference in the world. To you and some others here it seems like clothes make the person and not what is on the inside of the person. I feel bad for people like you who fear the clothes that someone wears. You couldn't be more wrong of me. And, now you are making this a personal attack. Marilyn Manson is one scary looking dude, yet I love the guy. I love to hear him talk. But yes I would be apprehensive to approach him on the street. I'm sorry, that's just how I honestly feel. Am I alone in this feeling? I'm not being judgemental if I know they could be a decent person. Trouble is most of society, are judgemental.

I am just glad that I am not like you and some others here, I will not judge others because of their clothes. I never said, nor implied, I judge people by their clothes. I have said for example, "THAT THE LITTLE GIRL MIGHT BE THE NICEST PERSON IN THE WORLD, AND IT'S MY FAULT FOR NOT TALKING TO HER".One day someone will judge you lot and you people will be making cry baby posts on how society is so mean, well, some of you here deserve all you get from society. You deserve to go into the closet. That's just mean. And I am not crying.
And Becky it isn’t a matter of different views. When one person makes a rule to others on how they should dress, well this is wrong, this is not an opinion. What if I said something like straight people are wrong to crossdress, it hurts my image as a gay CD. I feel that only gay men should be allowed to dress as women. This wouldn’t be considered an opinion, this would be wrong to say, because I can’t make rules that say that straights shouldn’t crossdress, just like others here shouldn’t make rules on how others should dress

I'm disappointed in you Amelie. Maybe it's time you revisit those anger management classes/therapistshttp://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17200.

[Sophia Rearen]

Well said Sherri. Now should I run away like some others?
Sorry you couldn't see my reply Amelie.
You may have been able to understand me better.

[Helana]

If Cds here want rules on how others should dress then they should follow societies rules and not dress at all, because from what I hear on this forum, society doesn’t want any of you to dress as women, so why don’t the intolerant ones here follow societies rules and stop dressing all together, maybe then you can leave the dressing to the Cds who want to have fun.

An excellent piece of reasoning. :thumbsup: How can anyone argue against this?

[TGMarla]

Edited for mean-spirited content by me.

Sorry. I was out of line.

[susandrea]

If you experience enough of life, you learn not to give others-- especially strangers-- so much power over you.

Some people here should get out more, crossdressed or not. :D

[Helana]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but I'd bet quite a lot of money that what is considered "passing" by most CDS is really more like "tolerance" or simply "not paying attention", and, quite frankly, "politeness" and even "not giving a shit". The way I myself behave around a CD, either near one or actually talking to one, is to be completely natural and treat them exactly as I would a woman, so I can imagine they leave me thinking they have passed. That's my intention!



A great observation. Too many CDs get hung up on the holy grail of passing which is silly when in fact all that is happening is that you maybe blend into the background from afar.

If people here want the CDs who venture out to be ambassadors then that means we have to interact with the general public, which means we will automatically be clocked. So it is pointless getting fixated on passing, it really does not matter.

As has been said before a positive, confident attitude is all that is required to win others over. If you act "normally" then they will treat you normally.

Being an ambassador is about your positive attitude not about your dress code. If you have a negative attitude towards crossdressing in public then it is probably better that you do stay indoors as people will sense that in you and you will not be doing yourself or anyone else a favor by being out en femme.

[Stelli]

A great observation. Too many CDs get hung up on the holy grail of passing which is silly when in fact all that is happening is that you maybe blend into the background from afar.

If people here want the CDs who venture out to be ambassadors then that means we have to interact with the general public, which means we will automatically be clocked. So it is pointless getting fixated on passing, it really does not matter.

As has been said before a positive, confident attitude is all that is required to win others over. If you act "normally" then they will treat you normally.

Being an ambassador is about your positive attitude not about your dress code. If you have a negative attitude towards crossdressing in public then it is probably better that you do stay indoors as people will sense that in you and you will not be doing yourself or anyone else a favor by being out en femme.

Just excellent! This is good reality check. I am passable when I admit myself that I am passable. It doesnot really matter if I am objectively passable and in which amount. Helana this is worth of gold. Deserves separate thread.

[susandrea]

A great observation. Too many CDs get hung up on the holy grail of passing which is silly when in fact all that is happening is that you maybe blend into the background from afar.

If people here want the CDs who venture out to be ambassadors then that means we have to interact with the general public, which means we will automatically be clocked. So it is pointless getting fixated on passing, it really does not matter.

As has been said before a positive, confident attitude is all that is required to win others over. If you act "normally" then they will treat you normally.

Being an ambassador is about your positive attitude not about your dress code. If you have a negative attitude towards crossdressing in public then it is probably better that you do stay indoors as people will sense that in you and you will not be doing yourself or anyone else a favor by being out en femme.


Exactly.

Concentrate on the inside more than the outside and people will accept you.

"Vanity and pride are different things, though the words are often used synonymously. A person may be proud without being vain. Pride relates more to our opinion of ourselves; vanity, to what we would have others think of us."-- Jane Austen

"Snobbery is the pride of those who are not sure of their position"-- Berton Braley

[Sophia Rearen]

Sorry for all of my posts, I'm just trying to create a conversation.

[TGMarla]

I'm sorry Sophia. I apologize. Really, I like you. You're pretty, and obviously intelligent. But really, you just keep going on and on about little or nothing here. It's the only time I responded to this thread at all, because it just didn't elicit any response before. So I admit I was mean and harsh, and I'll just shut up. But really, this whole thing is way out of control with little focus or meaning. I'm begging you, just let it die.

[Sophia Rearen]

Tg Marla,
Thank you for your apology. Accepted. It's not really up to me to let it die. I kind of wish it did as well. Might I add how ironic the death of this thread is. Who would want to reply now? For fear of reprisal. We're doing it to ourselves. If that's the perception we're displaying, than why would the shy reply? In essense, this thread has come full circle. The number of reply's have dropped off do to the conversation turning negative. However, when I wake and log on and see replies such as yours, I have to reply? I am not going to take it laying down. I wanted to add to the previous reply, but for fear of being too long winded; the bulk of the excellent content here was provided by others such as, Becky, Amelie, Susan, Helena, Marlena Tammycd, Tiffany and others. They did the bulk of the work. I'm sure they were offended by you as well. They are much more intelligent than I. There was plenty of good work here. I am not going to summarize. I don't feel that's my place since, I've received such negative reaction from a thread that was intended to do good for the crossdresser, in particular the closeted CD. So now I'll just go back to the main board and read threads such as Emily Howard's NEVER GOING OUT AGAIN! I hope somebody else can help this girl. Because I certainly can't.

[KathrynW]

If you experience enough of life, you learn not to give others-- especially strangers-- so much power over you.

This is a good point...
Keep repeating to yourself...
"It's only words in cyberspace..."
"It's only words in cyberspace..."
"It's only words in cyberspace...";)

If you act "normally" then they will treat you normally.
*NOT* always true...

Being an ambassador is about your positive attitude not about your dress code.
Again...*NOT* always true...

Exactly.Concentrate on the inside more than the outside and people will accept you.
Again...*NOT* always true...

[sherri]

*NOT* always true...

Again...*NOT* always true...

Again...*NOT* always true...
Kathryn, I just have to say something to you, but please know that it is said in a friendly, non-adversarial spirit.

You keep harping in thread after thread on a single negative point about interacting with the public. We get it, okay? You seem to think we're all missing this big issue, but actually it's you who is missing the bigger picture. We all know the potential for unpleasantness exists, but some of us who have had numerous good experiences know that going out can be rewarding in spite of the risk ... and we have sense enough to try to minimize that risk. You're obviously terrified at the prospect of confrontation, but not all of us are.

And your 100% passable rule is just silly. In the first place, passable is largely a myth, and secondly, it doesn't matter. In fact, there is a legitimate school of thought, primarily among younger CDs, that passing isn't even all that interesting a goal. What is more interesting is the expression of a femininity that challenges conventional gender perceptions.

Finally, I presume from the things that you have said that you have zero experience going out en femme, so you really don't know what you're talking about. You speak only from suspicion or paranoia. It's probably true that you can't go out in the town where you live - I can't either - but that does not mean that there is nowhere for you to go. If you have no desire to go out, fine, but don't try to impose that restriction on the rest of us. And if you do secretly have a desire to go out, then get in your car and go somewhere where you aren't known, where you can circulate safely. My bet is you'll be glad you did.

So please, give us a break on the constant reality checks, okay? And please try to let some of the things we're saying about freedom of expression and promoting acceptance sink in a little bit, okay? Try to get your mind around the fact that maybe it is you who could learn a thing or two.

Love and peace. :koc:

[KathrynW]

And your 100% passable rule is just silly.
Well, if you notice, I usually state that this is simply "my opinion". I certainly would never expect everyone to have the same opinion.

So please, give us a break on the constant reality checks, okay?
Try to get your mind around the fact that maybe it is you who could learn a thing or two.
Point taken.;)
PS - But I still won't ever agree that it's ok for an adult to dress like a little girl in public...

[Sarahgurl371]

I have got just one word for you all........ RESPECT.

I am away for a day and you all start tearing each other to pieces. Some of you are behaving like a bunch of very petty, self righteous people! Kinda just like the ones we BITCH about gaining acceptance from. I have never in my life felt compeled to hate somone just because of the way they look. OK, sure, I may have reservations about approaching them, or may even be afraid of them, but that is because I DO NOT KNOW THEM AS A PERSON! In the end, there are good and bad in every group, sex, gender, race, you name it. WE are just people! Sometimes you will miss a hell of an opportunity to meet some wonderful people, if YOU JUDGE OTHERS BASED ON YOUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS AND OPINIONS.

BTW, I have personally experienced one other group who tend to severly judge others based soley on thier physical appearance, and thier attire.... women. And in my experience, that phenomenon tends to transcend racial, economical, and and cutural bounds. And I think that women are incedible and choose to emulate thier physical appearance and emotional balance all the time.

First impressions are a bitch! Many of us live and die by first impressions. Once you offend SOME people's senses, ie. make a bad first impression, you can never get over that with them. I personally don't conduct myself that way, and always am willing to give somone the benefit of the doubt. But face it, some people are just closed minded, know it alls.

If I were going for a job interview, I would shower, shave, and wear some nice attire. I would be polite and courteous. I would do my best to present a POSITIVE image of myself. That also holds true when I meet somone for the first time. This is how I conduct my life. If you do not subscribe to these beliefs...I realy don't care, its your life.

I would and will apply this same methodology to myself as a CD, whenever anyone else is present. I do not care what anybody does in private. And what I do in private, or how I dress, in private, is my bussiness. When out in public though, its everyone who I come in contact with's bussiness.

I do not wish to see anyone, a woman, a man, heterosexual, homosexual, bi, TG, TS, anyone, acting in a lewd or explicit manor in the public eye. Its just bad taste, and inappropriate because you never know when some little kid is gonna walk in. RESPECT..... I believe that If I want the respect of others, I have to respect them.. You get back what you put out. What goes around, comes around. Do these sound familiar?

If I was with my grandmother, or my wife, or with a child, I wouldn't want anybody acting in a manor that is unaccpetable in public. And deep down, we all know, we have that little inner voice, that tells us when something is not appropriate. I cannot describe obscenity, but I know it when I see it. There, you have made me quote a conservative justice! Again, I do not care what anybody does behind closed doors, or with a group a similarlly minded people in a private setting. (as long as no one gets hurt or has something forced upon them, or is taken advantage of) But when in the Public EYE, we are all, (read - everybody, every label) or should be, accountable, and responsible, by our actions, our conversations, our dress, whatever, to behave in a way that is not offensive to the general population.

I know, I know, that some say, BS, I do not have to curtail my behavior or limit my self expression for anybody. YOU live in a SOCIETY. If you do not want to care for, and respect other members of that SOCIETY, then go away and start your own SOCIETY. Look, we are complaining in OUR OWN COMMUNITY, about the same things that we bitch about with respect to our plight in this society. My goodness people, are we really just a bunch of hypocrits?

This is unbelievable. Here we all are, here for the support that some of us are desperately seeking from those in our lives, and we are tearing ourselves apart. WE ALL HAVE TO BE BETTER PEOPLE! We have to be better than those who would cast us out just because we exist. We have to turn the other cheek. Look, I am not a very religous person. I am spiritual though, and believe that we must do unto others...

We are sitting here complaining about a CD in a little girls dress, sitting in a restaurant eating, Or a Goth CD, or any other type, or label that can be applied as meant to offend our senses. Number one, we are doing the very same thing we are complaining about society and its acceptance of us in general. Number two we are casting stones at people who are different than us. Maybe that is the same point, I am starting to get confused.

If this statement offends you, I apologise in advance.

We cannot go around in the world without a care about how our actions impact other people around us. It is just not civil. And we live in a civilization.

In a perfect world, the sex of your body, the color of your skin, your gender identity, your sexual preference, your economical staus, your religious beliefs, etc., etc., etc. would not and should not matter. WE are human beings, and as such deserve dignity and repsect from other human beings. And until such a time you do something that is detrimental to others, or society and the world as a whole, shall receive it from me.

I believe that society, and the rules it creates exist because as a collective, we know that we need it. My point is, That without rules of accepted behavior, there are those among us (us as in the human race) who would take advantage of, and not give any regard to others in society, and IMHO, that is just wrong. The world would be better off without humans. We tend to, when living without fear of reprocussion or consequence, become pretty terrible beings. The fear of God exists, because without it, I feel that this world would be a horrible place to try and survive. And we all have our own ideas about God, or whatever it is that you call your idea of the Supreme Being, and what is right or wrong. And when we offend the sense of right in the general population, just because we are different and we exist, we have to work extra hard to gain thier trust and respect, so we can live our lives they way we wish within the "accepted" societal norms. I know it shouldn't be tht way, BUT IT IS.

So while I really don't care why you CD, whether its a fetish, a gender expression, an experiment, a lifestyle, whatever it is to you, Is it really appropriate behavior for a person who is an adult, to be dressed as a little child in a public place? I am not talking about a Goth person, A person who is tattooed from head to toe, A person who wears peircings all over the place, An adult MTF or FTM CD, TG, TS who is acting like an ADULT, I hope you get the point. We cannot seem to get societyies acceptance of us when we wish to dress and be percieved as the opposite gender. Isn't a little bit of a stretch to EXPECT acceptance of an adult dressed as a little girl in a PUBLIC place? Come on, THEY already think we are freaks, and probably worry about us corrupting thier kids.

So yes, lets change PERCERPTIONS. Let us as a community, be BETTER people. Volunteer to help those less fourtunate, Become a mentor, Volunteer for civil service, Be kind, Be courteous, Be thoughtful and repsectful of others, Give to charity, Be the best people we can be. Regardless of the clothes you happen to wear.

[Deborah]

Well, if you notice, I usually state that this is simply "my opinion". I certainly would never expect everyone to have the same opinion.

Point taken.;)
PS - But I still won't ever agree that it's ok for an adult to dress like a little girl in public...

Keep in mind not all of us dress like "little girls." Some of us dress our age and perhaps slightly younger.
I won't ever agree either that it is good for a forum to have a member with such a negative attitude. ;)

[Helana]

Tammy

All good points as usual. For sure this thread got overly idealist. In order to defend the right to free expression we have to stretch points beyond the reality of everyday life.

Your basic premise is that there are some images such as the little girl outfit which are obviously offensive to society and so oversteps the mark. That when in public we have a duty not to be deliberately offensive to others. We all understand this point of view but live with it everyday but there is a bigger picture to consider.

Whereas a short skirt is seemed as acceptable in a big city, go to a conservative country town and it would be deemed ****ty and offensive. Does that mean before entering any town we should first check what the tolerance level is so that they can choose appropriate attire so as not to cause offense. Would you ask your wife and daughters to cover up their arms and legs when passing in front of your Muslim neighbors house?

Society is not definable, it is a collection of numerous society sub-sets usually divided up among race, religion, age, gender, location etc each with their own ideas of what is acceptable. Is there a standard set of measurements which define what length of skirt is considered acceptable or not? The problem is that by simply stepping outside your house you are pretty much guaranteed to offend somebody somehow. How can we take into account the diverse viewpoints of so many others.

Going back to the little girl outfit. You are aware that dressing up as little girls is a big craze in Japan. Many Japanese girls delight in dressing up as stereotypical young girls and have become celebrities. They walk through the streets and get lots of admirers. Now if a similar fashion trend were to occur here and our GGs began dressing up like little girls in public, would it now be ok for us CDs to do the same without offending anybody?

When you say society finds offense at the little girl outfit, what you are really saying is that you are offended by it. Yes there are many others who share your point of view, but there are others who do not. Who is right and who is wrong?

As our society becomes more cosmopolitan, it is becoming increasingly clear that the old standards of "decency" are no longer applicable, there is just too much diversity out there to control. Society is learning that it has to change from common standards to "anything goes". You may not like that personally but you will need to recognize it. We are moving towards a new notion that the real offense is not being tolerant of others' freedom of expression. But because society is made up of numerous sub-sets each travelling at different speeds towards this new reality, there is an inevitable conflict between those who wish to hold onto traditional standards and those who want to push for liberal standards.

So the idea that some things are universally offensive is not really the case. We make up our own realities to fit in with our own value judgements and hope to persuade others to follow suit. Most of us conform to recognizable rules of decency because it makes life easy and controllable, but which unfortunatley automatically alienates some people for our benefit. These rules of decency are in constant flux and change with every new generation which makes notions like "offensive" a moving target.

Life is just not that simple anymore:cool:

[Sophia Rearen]

Just a funny note, while reading Helena's reply, very nice btw, I noticed there was 3 advertisements at the bottom of the page. They were all titled " What Not To Wear":D

[ReginaK]

IMHO, unless a person can pass 100% undetected as female, they shouldn't CD in public...period. If you can't pass 100% and still want to push the envelope...be prepared to deal with the consequences (if there are any) of your actions. That's my story, and I'm stickin to it. ;)

Thankfully that's just your opinion or else a lot people would have some pretty hurt feelings. :(

That's no different than saying if a person weighs more than some model on the cover of a magazine, they shouldn't go out in public. When you have opinions like that, it puts you on the slippery slope of hypocrisy.

[kneehighs]

Well, if you notice, I usually state that this is simply "my opinion". I certainly would never expect everyone to have the same opinion.

Point taken.;)
PS - But I still won't ever agree that it's ok for an adult to dress like a little girl in public...

Kathryn, a house divided against itself cannot stand. In this thread as well as in others, your opinions seem to be causing more division and harm than constructive feedback and productive discourse.

And thats my opinion, like it or not.

[KathrynW]

Kathryn, a house divided against itself cannot stand.
ummmm...what "house" are you referring to?

In this thread as well as in others, your opinions seem to be causing more division and harm than constructive feedback and productive discourse.
Well...sometimes the voice of reason & reality isn't always the most popular... ;)

[Miss Sherry]

Kathryn, a house divided against itself cannot stand. In this thread as well as in others, your opinions seem to be causing more division and harm than constructive feedback and productive discourse.


Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof [American Heritage Disctionary]

While this thread has diverged significantly from its original intent, it has been interesting and, I think, enlightening. But attcking an opinion and disagreeing with one are two different things. If a house be divided by matters of opinion, then that is a house of cards, indeed.

If you disagree, state your opinion, but agree that others may also disagree.

That's called an enlightened discussion.

[KathrynW]

Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof [American Heritage Disctionary]
While this thread has diverged significantly from its original intent, it has been interesting and, I think, enlightening. But attacking an opinion and disagreeing with one are two different things. If a house be divided by matters of opinion, then that is a house of cards, indeed.If you disagree, state your opinion, but agree that others may also disagree.That's called an enlightened discussion.
I have no problem accepting this definition of opinion. I've never claimed my opinion was the only one, or proved anything, it's simply an opinion, like all other opinions here. Let's leave it at that. ;)