Why do so many younger TS out themselves so badly?

[Nicole Erin]

You have seen youtube videos where these 20 something year old TS will have photos of their "man" days and have the "female" days with cations like "3 months on hormones" and show the progress.
Now some of these TS (given their youth) look really good. They can pass, have their act and voice down and supportive family and friends etc...

What are they trying to accomplish by throwing around videos on the web to show what they looked like as men? They have to realize that once they post that, it could end up anywhere and come up again at any time.

I guess all of us, in our youth, did stupid things that would cause problems for the remainder of our lives. In this case, if they COULD go stealth or close, won't they someday regret their "showing off" now?

Even for non-passable TS, showing the "man" photos ruins the image cause even a crappy transition will feminize someone enough to not look "total male". So why ruin a GOOD transition? What is happening there?

I am sure you have heard that old joke about a guy who just had sex with a beautiful woman and finds a man photo and thinks it is her husband until she says, "that used to be me".
So what gives?

[Saffron]

there are people who isn't ashamed of being TS and/or want to document the changes. if they don't care about being in the open good for them.

[Jorja]

Well, its not 20-30 years ago when it was still against the law in some places and we had to keep things like this buried. It is a new age. People are a lot more accepting. People like you and I should be grateful the younger generation is being so open about it. It lets the masses see it. The more they see it the better they will feel about it.

[kellycan27]

It's a kinder gentler world.. Peers are more enlightened and adults are busy with their own lives and not too concerned with what young people are doing. These pics and vids will eventually fade away and I doubt whether anyone will remember these girls much less run into them.

[ArleneRaquel]

I agree with kelly, but there are people out there who love to disrupt others life, I guess that they get some kind of perservse enjoyment in "bullying" others.

[I Am Paula]

Alot of young people feel a need to document their entire lives. How else do you explain all the 'my breakfast' pics on facebook?
My dad interviewed a young man for a management position. After a very good interview, he googled him. University was four years of drunken bufoonery, and shirtless partying. He even had a facebook pic of himself peeing in a swimming pool. He didn't get the job.-Celeste

[Miranda-E]

You have seen youtube videos where these 20 something year old TS will have photos of their "man" days and have the "female" days with cations like "3 months on hormones" and show the progress.
Now some of these TS (given their youth) look really good. They can pass, have their act and voice down and supportive family and friends etc...

their act? TS's are acting?


What are they trying to accomplish by throwing around videos on the web to show what they looked like as men? They have to realize that once they post that, it could end up anywhere and come up again at any time.

maybe they aren't ashamed of their life.


I guess all of us, in our youth, did stupid things that would cause problems for the remainder of our lives. In this case, if they COULD go stealth or close, won't they someday regret their "showing off" now?

stupid? maybe they are smart enough to realize the papertrail stays with you in the real world and aren't willing to hide or play a part time life. proud of living their life how they want.


Even for non-passable TS, showing the "man" photos ruins the image cause even a crappy transition will feminize someone enough to not look "total male". So why ruin a GOOD transition? What is happening there?

I am sure you have heard that old joke about a guy who just had sex with a beautiful woman and finds a man photo and thinks it is her husband until she says, "that used to be me".
So what gives?

non-passing? how can you not pass as what you really are? these aren't crossdressers buying shoes on a lark, they are living real lives and willing to help others.

[CarolynO]

I don't think there is great risk for young ts girls to come out in public as it may have in the past especially if they finished at or before puberty.Another reason may be that they get paid for appearances on talk shows or news stories.Think of Christine Jorgenson,the very first to go public.It was a sensationalist media story yet she managed to settle down to a quiet life after that and married if I remember correctly.
Another is Kim Petras who is all over youtube and actually has a youtube channel.She sings and probably making a good living at that.She made the rounds with the media about her story transitioning at age 12,GRS at 16.No doubt got paid for that too.And yes,they are proud of living their new lives as I would be.

There is a website too of ts women in successful careers.
But I agree that a non passable ts if there is such a thing should not bare all to anyone about their past and live stealthily as possible.

[sandra-leigh]

Myself, I couldn't live as "male" anymore; I couldn't hide being more female. I was (and still am) transitioning in place. Any photo of me is going to be obvious. I suppose I could refrain from posting any photos, but sometimes that's not a suitable solution either.

My public (male) electronic professional reputation goes back to the early 1980's, before I had even graduated university. I am probably not going to get a job without reference to it. When someone in their early 50's shows up with a blank resume but claiming skills, they either aren't treated seriously or are treated as having something very serious to hide. I would have to switch fields completely to one were a resume was not expected -- e.g., becoming a "late-blooming" artist (... rather difficult with no appreciable artistic skills.... )

I've tried writing technical articles pseudonymously before. It didn't work. Not that anyone bothered to explicitly "out" me: rather it became clear that everyone knew who I was right from the very beginning. Write enough, competently enough, and in time people will have no need of looking at the header to figure out whom is writing. People have recognized me a decade later, in a fairly different technical topic, just from my writing "personality".

For good or for ill, my transition is going to end up publicly known. And in such a situation, trying to hide it away is pointless: I might as well be me all the way through.

[PaulaQ]

The concept we think of as "privacy" doesn't really exist well for people 25 and below, as best I can tell. I don't understand this - it is a completely alien concept to me.

It isn't that they don't understand that there is "no delete button for the internet" - I think many of them simply DO NOT CARE.

I agree that it is surprising for a high-stakes situation like TS. I do not understand it. But it isn't peculiar to TS - it's every darn thing about their lives.

[DanaM64]

I would have to agree with all of you to a degree, the one thing I have noticed is the majority (not all) of the posters do have in common is they themselves had seen a video posted which helped them take the next step to be themselves... So whether a beauty queen (which there are a few) or the person who will not pass even if she had been born a GG, they feel they are helping the next person who might see their video. Though there are a few that I couldn't sit through to the end just because it was just that horrible...

I feel this really helps everyone in our situation by exposing more and more people whether accepting or not. If you ever took the time to read the comments I would honestly say there are a lot more positive than negative ones.

[Nicole Erin]

Kelly said about stuff on the web fading. She is right I suppose... with as many vlogs out there with senseless ramble... Still seems something not wise to put out.


Alot of young people feel a need to document their entire lives. How else do you explain all the 'my breakfast' pics on facebook?Hahaha, Well, alright, you win. "John ate a McBiscuit for breakfast and had sweet-n-low in his decaf" GREAT!
I want to document MY life on facebook too. Everything from what i ate to the most exciting part - my daily shower! RIVETING!


My dad interviewed a young man for a management position. After a very good interview, he googled him. University was four years of drunken bufoonery, and shirtless partying. He even had a facebook pic of himself peeing in a swimming pool. He didn't get the job.-Celeste
I cannot imagine why he didn't get the job. Cooouuulllddd it be that... Nooo, nevermind I thought of something silly.

[Memzy]

It's basically building a community. If you look at tumblr, a LOOOT of us have tumblr pages documenting our progress, with youtube videos and such. We all help each other, and provide support and a general idea of what to expect, what to do and how to go about things. We generally just don't give a flying crap about negative comments. If you look at youtube video comments there are probably about maybe 5 negative comments out of hundreds. And the negatives are always down voted to nonexistence.

I guess it's kind of like, if we all tried to cover our tracks, how in the heck are we supposed to make the lives of future TS's better? Like some of you have said it builds awareness. We're not ashamed!


EDIT:
I would also like to ad, that most of my trans friends agree that we would much rather associate with people that know, and accept our past present and future, rather than associate with people that are close minded. It's kind of awkward talking to people that bash LGBT not knowing you are indeed part of the community.

I put myself out there because I want to support the Trans community, and because I've met so many wonderful people because of it. I don't go around telling everyone I'm trans, but the moment words start flying putting down the Trans community I'll be quick to defend.


I feel like i'm word vomiting D:

[Angela Campbell]

The concept we think of as "privacy" doesn't really exist well for people 25 and below, as best I can tell. I don't understand this - it is a completely alien concept to me.

It isn't that they don't understand that there is "no delete button for the internet" - I think many of them simply DO NOT CARE.

I agree that it is surprising for a high-stakes situation like TS. I do not understand it. But it isn't peculiar to TS - it's every darn thing about their lives.

I want to expand on this. Us older ladies can remember what it was like years ago when privacy was an obtainable thing and we liked it. Over the years this has gone away to an amazing level and nothing is very private to those who seek. Younger ones have never had this experience and do not know what it was like to be private and have your own life. Everything is out in the open and they are comfortable with it.

[stefan37]

Funny conversation I had with an employee of mine, when I was discussing why I came to the decision to transition now and why I felt I would have never been able to. I told him I always thought for me to transition I would have to leave all that I know and move far away and he commented, how stealth do you think you could be in today's information age. I thought about it and agreed it might be possible, but highly probable it would not have. I am transitioning in place and those that knew before will know me after so how stealth can I expect to be. I would venture to say not very. I know my kids document almost their entire lives on fbook and twitter, so the young of today do not desire nor need or want the privacy that we had as we were growing up.

[Marleena]

This is a great topic Erin! I guess it depends what you are after in life. Some prefer stealth and starting new lives as women without looking back. These girls are the new generation of Youtubers and FBer's. Maybe they're proud of what they're doing and documenting it for others to follow. They are effectively "outing" themselves to the world. People have a choice of accepting or ignoring them. It's a good thing in a way they are so open with this. It shows others like them there is hope and it also puts it out there for the Cisworld to see. It's like Kelly said eventually it's forgotten. We've seen a lot of high profile people come out as trans in the media and it's a reminder we are here and we're just people too.

I could use more courage myself.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

my daughters blog and vlog constantly..

its just what people do ...

i can understand the reaction "why would they want to show off the change?? why emphasize the old life?" but apparently these gals know what they want...

I do beleive they are underestimating the risk they are taking, but i think that applies to all kinds of people that put their lives out on the internet...
its a kinder gentler world for ts people today, but i would not go so far as to say its got the point where it IS kind and gentle for ts people

[Amy A]

There may well be some ramifications from putting your life on the internet for everyone to see, and it's not something I would have the courage to do mainly because I'm quite a private person anyway, but the girls that do document their transitions are (for me and many others) an inspiration; they show whats possible, they actively pull apart the common media image of trans women, and they show absolutely no shame in admitting who they are and what they've been through.

The more information out there, the more visible the community is, the easier it will get for everyone. These girls are doing us a favour.

[KellyJameson]

I admire many of them for doing this. They feel no shame about where they came from, who they are or where they headed.

It will be much easier for everyone when there is no longer any cultural stigma associated with transitioning.

[melissaK]

Lotta nice thoughts. Real study in changing social values.

@jorja, yes we should be thankful for the social shift! I am. I came out to my kids and 3/4 hardly cared! One of my friends sent me a NYTimes article on a Transgendered kinder gardener (or 1st grader) with supportive parents! That's one kid who might grow up less screwed up than most of us.

@memzy, yes, sometimes it is just open community building and its how you find those with shared values - I'm not out but I'm very much pro GLBT (my ex, my daughter's mom, is L and we support her openly) and its always uncomfortable when I'm in a group with way different values.

I envy and am proud of the younger people, I know acceptance is not even close to universal, but their constant exposure of themselves to their peers means less and less prejudice will be present. Well, at least I'm hoping. :)

[Debglam]

It has been said in other words, but I agree that it is a lack of shame in these wonderful kids! The world is far from perfect when it comes to trans but it is certainly getting better! A lot of these younger folks don't care if they are id'ed as trans, former trans, or whatever! I love it even if I can only live vicariously through them.

On a related note, I recently stumbled on a lesbian site called Autostraddle! I could spend days just reading the posts! These women are just so positive, confident, and happy that it just makes my day! A thread about trans dating drew a few negative comments, mostly of the radfem extremist type, but the vast majority were positive. That's what happens when people are happy in their own skin. They don't feel the need to attack others!

[groove67]

I for one wish i could have been this open as now 18 months into trans i am so open and love every minute of it.

[silverfurret]

I think it's about being open but also allowing other's to know about Trans* identities. As I know a lot of the members here are on the very experienced side of the age gap think about when you started how there was no easy to access to any information on this topic; I had very early internet so my oppurtunity for information lead me into crossdressing and I was trapped under that indentity for many years to until seeing and hearing others' stories that helped me learn transition is possible and how to start.

[Jorja]

@Memzy - Just curious here. Have you gone to a job interview and had them hold up a picture of you and ask, How do you explain this behavior?

[Xrys]

I have three thoughts on this.

1. By putting the information out there it helps people realize how much work goes into transitioning. Many people just think you go to the doctors office and when you come out, bam, your a girl. it is helping shatter many peoples ignorance on the issue, and brings us even closer to more wide spread acceptance.

2. By putting their progress out there, they are providing hope and inspiration to those who are still struggling. Before I found this forum, watching others transition on youtube was about the only light i saw in my verry dark tunnel.

3. Cancer survivors dont hide their struggles, they're proud of winning their fight. We all know how hard it is to transition sucessfully. Those who have come out the other side of this grueling gauntlet should be just as proud of their accomplishment. They have earned the right to say they have fought this fight and WON! If they want others to recognize their victory, then they have earned that too.

There will always be intollerant biggots in this world, and there will always be trolls on the internet. They wage war with insults and ignorance in an effort to force us to conform to their narrow minded view of the world. But they can only win if we let them, and each successful transition that is posted chips away at the ignorance and fear they rely on so heavily. I say, you go girls!

[ameliabee]

I don't put pre-transition pics of me out there.

There are some things I'm incredibly open about, like me being a lesbian and my involvement in BDSM, but my medical history isn't something I talk about.

Some don't mind embracing a trans* identity, and if you're okay with always being seen as trans*, then hey, by all means, advocate and document things.

The thing I don't think the older generations are understanding is that even if you put something out there on the internet, it's not necessarily going to be easily found unless somebody decides to start spreading it around. Even if things are found, what happens then? Nothing much, really.

[Andie Elisabeth]

You can look at it this way times when Lynn Conway and others could go stealth is more or less over. We have internet now. If someone decided to gather all information about me he/she probably would find my former last name which I changed in high school.

Personally I don't expect I could go completely stealth because of that. But increasing number of data gives me hope that anything I post will be somewhat of a needle in the haystack. So I don't think it's a bad way to out myself on youtube or in r/transtimelines. It's just accepting that I probably will not be able to hide my past and make the best I can to show others that I am a human being regardless of what I did.

[Memzy]

@Memzy - Just curious here. Have you gone to a job interview and had them hold up a picture of you and ask, How do you explain this behavior?

No I have not. But I've been with the same job for 3 years. They are very aware of my Transition status, and have no issue with it. I never ever use my Birth name online. [because I hate it] The only reason my boss knew about my previous cross-dressing was because my resume really didn't have a whole lot on it because I had been in the entertainment industry for the previous 6 years, and he wanted to know why I did not have a job since high-school. All that was said was "You have a very interesting life-style" and he wanted to know if he should notify HR if I planned on "fully dressing" at work. I've always dressed andro until about 4 months ago when I started full time.

Honestly I'm not worried about being asked that question.

I suppose I'm lucky to have a very open-minded work environment.

[ReineD]

On a related note, I recently stumbled on a lesbian site called Autostraddle!

Fascinating! I found an article that is causing a rather lengthy and heated debate on a topic that touches indirectly on what is discussed in this thread:

http://www.autostraddle.com/getting-with-girls-like-us-a-radical-guide-to-dating-trans-women-for-cis-women-160269/

In a nutshell the author, a MtF who has not (I gather) had SRS, had an uninspiring date with a cisgender lesbian who refused to acknowledge that the author is a woman. So the author wrote an etiquette and attitude improving article to help cisgender lesbians treat MtFs as women. However, the author also noted that, "no one is obligated to touch a woman's penis if they aren't into that".

Many of the people who frequent Autostraddle believe that biology is incidental, and that the only determination of gender is a person's own gender identity. "I am female if I say that I am female, and the fact that I have a penis should not make a difference". Some genetic lesbians, however, insist that biology is valid and they have the right to prefer penis-free women. These lesbians were looked upon as trolls, by a population that I gather mostly identifies as genderqueer.

I clicked on a few of the MtF avatars and they use several labels to describe themselves. For example one MtF says that she is "Lesbian, Trans*, Trans Woman, Genderqueer, Femme", while another identifies as "Lesbian, Bisexual, Queer, Trans Woman, Transgender, Genderqueer, Pansexual, "Label-Free", Other". I didn't see anyone who identifies as just "Transsexual, Transwoman, or Woman", however I only clicked on a few avatars.

One genetic lesbian referred to the author as MtT. She pointed out that women do not have penises and as long as it is present, the person is trans and not a woman. The MtFs found this highly insulting, since as pointed out earlier, they do not believe that biology matters.

I am promted to post all of this here for two reasons. One, to point the way to a different way of thinking about gender than we normally see here if anyone is interested. And two, I was particularly struck with the designation "MtT". Maybe the young TSs on youtube do think of themselves as Male to Trans, and to them this label is not insulting? Maybe they do genuinely see themselves as genderqueer with female identities?

It's confusing because I can't make out whether the MtFs who commented in the article, identity as women or genderqueer (in which case MtT would be appropriate). They do call themselves both. :strugglin

================================

On a side note, one person used a label that I was not familiar with and that I quite like: FAAB or MAAB (Female or Male Assigned At Birth). This denotes to others, the gender assigned at birth based on sexual characteristics, that the person does not identify with. I think it's more accurate than using "birth-gender", "birth-male", or "birth-female". There's a better explanation here:

http://transfeminisms.wordpress.com/faab-and-maab/

[Kathryn Martin]

This thread which is in itself an interesting topic has taken an interesting and unexpected turn thanks to Debglams and Reine's comment. I am no friend of the rad fem movement not because I don't understand their point of view but rather because of the methods used in making the point. Likewise I am not a friend of the transfems for precisely the same reason.

I don't think that the positions of each of these groups can be reconciled. The interesting part of the article that Reine referenced as far as I am concerned is that trans people who have a penis advance two propositions to the lesbian community: It is possible to be a woman with a penis and secondly that we [trans people] are entitled to tell you what is is what. In my view the entire debate comes down to that. If you keep in mind that radical feminism considers gender entirely as a social construct to subjugate women, then such propositions are absolutely infuriating and in fact serve to confirm that men now invade women's spaces to further oppress women. Men (albeit MtF) telling women how the world works.

Combine that with recent statistics by which 70% of trans-women report attraction to women (as opposed to 7% in the general population) then you can see why this raises very significant questions. Discussions such as the one on that board at Autostraddle cement radfems views rather than help. I consider transfeminism in general a terrible mistake precisely for the reasons set out above. It is essentially the stealing of a female point of view and narrative by men; and how to be a lesbian to boot.

In reference to the OP, social media is what it is and the younger generations grew up with it. What ameliorates the potential negative impact however, is that they are young which leaves some opportunity to look back on this as an indulgence.

[Debglam]

I don't think that the positions of each of these groups can be reconciled. The interesting part of the article that Reine referenced as far as I am concerned is that trans people who have a penis advance two propositions to the lesbian community: It is possible to be a woman with a penis and secondly that we [trans people] are entitled to tell you what is is what. In my view the entire debate comes down to that. If you keep in mind that radical feminism considers gender entirely as a social construct to subjugate women, then such propositions are absolutely infuriating and in fact serve to confirm that men now invade women's spaces to further oppress women. Men (albeit MtF) telling women how the world works.

Combine that with recent statistics by which 70% of trans-women report attraction to women (as opposed to 7% in the general population) then you can see why this raises very significant questions. Discussions such as the one on that board at Autostraddle cement radfems views rather than help. I consider transfeminism in general a terrible mistake precisely for the reasons set out above. It is essentially the stealing of a female point of view and narrative by men; and how to be a lesbian to boot.

In reference to the OP, social media is what it is and the younger generations grew up with it. What ameliorates the potential negative impact however, is that they are young which leaves some opportunity to look back on this as an indulgence.

Kathryn,

We clearly disagree on this because I believe self-identification IS determinative. To each their own I guess.

You are correct about the hardcore radfems, but hey, F them! I care as little about their opinions as I do the Klan, Nazis, or any other haters. Completely irrelevant and fading away day-by-day.

The majority of the responses to the OP were positive. I believe these young women (GG and trans) are pretty happy with people being who they are. That is just awesome! My identity, or yours, or anybodies doesn't take anything away from theirs in spite of what the radfems rant.

[ReineD]

I believe self-identification IS determinative.

It's true that no one can dispute a person who says that she has a female gender identity. But, does this mean that she is a woman if she still has a penis?

I did not get the impression that the lesbians on that site resented the transwomen nor did they dispute their inner gender identity. In fact, I think they were quite ready to accept a transitioned transwoman as a woman. But they do resent being told that women have penises. I have a difficult time with this one myself.

I'm not trying to be a smart-a$$ here, just trying to come up with a consensus on the idea that if I say the sky is brown, then it is brown for me. Fine. But, is it really brown to everyone else, and should I insist that it should be brown for them?

[Rianna Humble]

From your opening remarks, would you reclassify me as MtT since (at least in the immediate future) there is no prospect of reversing the decision to deny me surgery?

RadFems the world over seem to deny the validity of anyone who does not agree with them 100%

Fortunately, most of the women (of whatever orientation) accept that I am female. As to the choice of sexual partner, to me that has nothing to do with whether I am whole and everything to do with the rights of the woman making the choice. For complete clarity, I am not talking about my rights here.

[ReineD]

Rianna, I would use the term MtT to describe people who are proud to be T, perhaps like some of the young TSs that Erin described in her OP. I gather that many younger people are proud to be genderqueer. And it is my impression that someone who identifies as genderqueer is saying that they reject the male/female binary. It is also my impression that the transwomen who seek transition identify as women and not genderqueer.

The other side of this is that if someone is MtF TS and her goal is to transition to simply F, then I think that she does need to get rid of her penis ... unless of course she has medical reasons for not being able to, or she simply does not have nor has any hope of ever having the funds for SRS. But I should think that anyone who has got to this point will consider the organ a useless appendage, if she has been on HRT and anti-androgens, so there will be no "pride in ownership", so to speak. And it hardly needs saying that she also needs to get her name legally changed and live as a woman 24/7, to everyone at all times. Anyway, it is the "pride in ownership" or a specific effort to hang-on to the penis because it is a part of her that takes someone out of the binary end of the spectrum, in my opinion. (O.M.G! I've just realized that I sound just like someone who used to be a member here. :eek:) :)

I concede there will be exceptions to this depending on individual circumstances, but we are talking here about rather broad definitions for "female", or "woman".

Anyway, this is simply my definition of binary gender. Men have penises and women don't. There are of course many states of gender that are in between the two and that are just as valid, just as real, and just as important, and just as lovable (like my SO :)). I define these middle states as gender non-conforming, according to my impression of the WPATH definitions. Individuals who are gender non-conforming can use a number of terms to identify themselves, such as bigender, dualgender, gender fluid, genderqueer, transgender, middlepather, inbetweenie, crossdresser, etc. So if someone willingly identifies as genderqueer like the MtFs on Autostraddle, I take it they see themselves as gender non-conforming as well. Hence the confusion. Why do they get insulted if a lesbian refuses to acknowledge they are women with penises? Is it just me, or are other people not confused about this?

Or, are they trying to negate binary gender for everyone else too, all the people who do feel that their bodies, either from birth or post-op are perfectly in line with their gender identities?

I also got the impression that the author of the article was defending her right to have her penis AND have lesbians be attracted to her as a woman, even though she did generously allow that any lesbian need not touch the penis if she wasn't into that. I agree with Kathryn that the author was imposing her own personal definition of binary gender on someone who is solidly in the binary and who has never experienced any gender incongruity. It is rather like steam-rolling.

[Kathryn Martin]

Debglam, I would draw a distinction between radfems and KKK and neo Nazis for a variety of reasons. But this is not about radfems at all but lesbian women who don't want to have sex with women with a penis. You see, if you re -read the article I think you will find that the author admonishes lesbian women "to get it together" and "lesbian women making asses of themselves" because they have misgivings of dating a woman with a penis. The piece was in my view written for women with penises to make them feel better. The author in my view did nothing to place herself in the position of the lesbian woman in an attempt to try and understand how her feelings came about. It was in short a propaganda piece.

Rianna, I would classify you as a woman with a disfigurement that currently cannot be healed. There is a significant difference between your status and the position taken by the author of this piece who is in my view genderqueer and not a woman. It would have never even occurred to me to identify you as gender variant. The authors choice is to be person with a penis (for whatever motives there might be) and obviously enjoys having one. The real problem however is that the author proceeds to tell lesbians who to love. And that is awfully close to saying that lesbians would be "cured" if they ever had a real man between their legs. You see saying that "Now, I want to emphasize here again that no one is obligated to touch a woman's penis (http://www.reddit.com/r/actuallesbians/comments/15ha8u/on_dating_trans_women_and_transphobia/) if they aren't into that." followed by " And the fact is that respecting your potential partner and vice versa is really sexy, and it's actually not that hard... err, difficult, to do." just makes my skin crawl.

It is obvious that this person likes to have their penis touched and nature will run it's course if it is. Just think about that for a moment and ask yourself if that is what lesbian women seek given their sexual orientation.

[groove67]

The world has changed and the younger trans people are just able to me more open than we ever where at those ages. I think people are more aware of the trans community and I see it getting better for all of us.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

self identification matters alot, its a quality of life issue and its always better to have a realistic view of yourself and to like that self...

but OTHER people have minds too, they have thoughts too...they don't suffer gender..they instantly identify themselves every single person they see as male or female without care or thought, and it matters to THEM in almost everything they do and think..self identification does not change this...

Self identification is determinative of only one side of daily life's equation. Self determination sounds "right" but what does it mean exactly?
It sure as heck does not mean that a lesbian woman should be looked at as transphobic because she wants her lover to have female parts..

among transsexuals and all the others in the tg umbrella we have some interests in common, and in others we diverge...it is what it is..
my bias is obvious, and i view life as being about what you do and not what you say..

Wanting a penis, and wanting to have sex with it is something you do...and its what you do that matters...
doing that and yet saying you are a woman is absurd and its against the interest of transsexuals that are pursuing srs or have had srs...

[Badtranny]

Wow when did THIS thread get so interesting?

I hate to say this but as a confirmed Pre-Op who is on record as not allowing my dangler to define me, I totally agree with the Posties and the FAB on this one. To have a Trans woman admonish Lesbians for not acknowledging her as one of them literally screams of the male privilege we were discussing in another thread. Trans women that are into women AND who keep their penises tend to be a little creepy and one who insists that Lesbians should ignore it while still making themselves available for sex are another breed entirely.

I know that there are a lot of feminists and lesbians who don't like Trans women and frankly I don't blame them. I've met a few that I didn't like much at all, they made ME uncomfortable and I used to be a dude!

[Aprilrain]

Yeah, ditto to what Melissa said

[Debglam]

I believe that the transwoman who posted the "guide" made it pretty clear that she was offering suggestions for lesbians who CHOSE to pair up with a transwoman, including pre-ops. Follow-up comments emphasized this. Nobody was being told who to hook up with or what to like.

I am going to stick with self-identification for a number of reasons, primarily to do otherwise is a slippery slope. Where does it end? To be clear, I am bigendered, will probably be non-op, and don't call myself a woman. I have argued with radfems who feel that having a vagina doesn't make you a woman. Where is your uterus and reproductive organs? Argue that there are natal women who no longer have reproductive organs and they claim chromosomes are definitive. On and on, and it is ironic that the far right agrees with the radfems and we would all be showing papers or dropping our drawers in order to pee in peace!

I have met far too many transwomen who I KNOW are women without having to do a package check on them!

[ReineD]

I believe that the transwoman who posted the "guide" made it pretty clear that she was offering suggestions for lesbians who CHOSE to pair up with a transwoman, including pre-ops.

I take it that if a woman chooses to be with someone who enjoys owning a penis then she is not a lesbian.

... but then it gets sticky, as you say. Is a woman a lesbian if she is with a pre-op TS? I believe that she is, if pre-op means there is intention to transition with accompanying hormones and anti-androgens, rendering the penis useless and possibly an annoyance. But, some people who have no medical issues and who could swing the finances are really non-op and they say they are pre-op. This gets too muddled for me, and I think you'd have to talk to both people involved personally to assign labels to them.

The chromosome argument is fairly clear for me. I consider a post-op a woman, given that she has gone as far as she possibly can given current medical advances. If uterus transplants were perfected, she would have one. If there was a way to go from XXY or XY to XX, she would. It's all a question of intentions.

But, if someone does not intend to go all the way and they can, if they willingly hang onto a penis with the goal of using it, then I do not consider them a part of binary gender even if they say they are.

[Annaliese]

I praise the younger TS and CD out there that are making easier for us to go out, the only ones holding us back is our self's.

[Badtranny]

I am going to stick with self-identification for a number of reasons, primarily to do otherwise is a slippery slope. Where does it end?

Deb I think you have it backwards. Self identification is a foundation for self acceptance and a successful transition but how can it be enough for social or legal standing?

The slippery slope is allowing anyone to identify however they like for however long they like. If you say you're a unicorn I will take you at your word but I would take you a lot more seriously if you had a horn installed in your head.

There will be those that argue that a gender change is NEVER possible because surgery can't change the genetics and all of that so do we acquiesce and say that if nothing can change us then nothing is necessary? Or do we meet somewhere in the middle and acknowledge that surgery and HRT are indeed limited but self identification as an end game is just silly.

I know how I feel and I know how people react to me but I also know that if someone is looking for a vajeen, then they need to look elsewhere because I don't have one. Does it make me less of a woman? Its debatable, but there are definitely situations where I would be very reluctant to display my cash & prizes. I wouldn't even think of it if there were kids around because in that situation especially, my gherkin ain't workin'. Women as a rule tend to have different equipment down there and all of the self identifyin' in the world ain't gonna change that.

Are there Posties that look like dudes? Heck yeah, and some of them act like dudes too. There are FtM's that look and act waaaaaaaay more manly than I ever did but in a ladies locker room, one of us passes and one of us doesn't. Hint, it ain't the chick with the dangler.

[Debglam]

I take it that if a woman chooses to be with someone who enjoys owning a penis then she is not a lesbian.

The chromosome argument is fairly clear for me. I consider a post-op a woman, given that she has gone as far as she possibly can given current medical advances. If uterus transplants were perfected, she would have one. If there was a way to go from XXY or XY to XX, she would. It's all a question of intentions.

But, if someone does not intend to go all the way and they can, if they willingly hang onto a penis with the goal of using it, then I do not consider them a part of binary gender even if they say they are.


Reine, this is definitely complex stuff but I can't help but keep going back to my point of view that a woman is not defined by her body or genitalia. A man for that matter either.

[LeaP]

The world has changed ... and I see it getting better for all of us.


I praise the younger TS and CD out there that are making easier for us to go out, the only ones holding us back is our self's.

These two quotes were making much the same point. There has been progress. Whether or not that is relevant – or how relevant – to the lives of older trans people is another thing entirely. My life isn't spent immersed in, or surrounded by young people. My social life (the little I have) is with people within a reasonable span of ages around my own, for the most part. Work is filled with people of all ages, but while my peer group includes a few younger people, it is generally older as well.

In other words, the benefits accrue more to the young among the young than they do to older trans people.



The chromosome argument is fairly clear for me. I consider a post-op a woman, given that she has gone as far as she possibly can given current medical advances. If uterus transplants were perfected, she would have one. If there was a way to go from XXY or XY to XX, she would. It's all a question of intentions.


The chromosome argument (from the radfems) is glib. From what I have read, chromosomal abnormalities are far more widespread than most people believe. I know you already know about CAIS women. They are more common than most people know, even if they are aware of them at all. It is also possible, by the way, to be fully, physically female with XY chromosomes, including being capable of reproducing, Just as it is possible to be an XX male (in this case sterile). There are a number of genes involved, but one key one is where the SRY gene is located. It is almost always found only on the Y-chromosome but on occasion can be found on an X. Whether or not it is active, and whether or not androgen and estrogen receptors are working properly properly are all factors.

[kellycan27]

My head is spinning! I think some are making this much too complicated. As a young transitioner ( speaking for myself here)
I didn't have the same social constraints as those who transition later in live. I never felt the need justify myself to everybody else ( including my peers), nor did I feel the need to analyze everything to the enth- degree. Transition began way before " I lived as a man" for 40 or 50 years, and my baggage could be toted in a sandwich sized Baggie.

Case in point: this thread has gone way off topic and turned into an " intellectual" battle. The young people have kept it pretty much short and sweet while the older crowd seems to feel the need to explain by dissecting it into a million pieces.
Labels and lesbians and chromosomes oh my!

[Debglam]

Misty,

You bring up a very good point and maybe my argument, or the whole "who is what" argument is really circular! I just know that I feel very uncomfortable being a decider, or anyone else for that matter, as to who is a woman and who isn't. I think Kelly is right in that you can think this stuff to death! I would argue that making things as gender neutral as possible is probably the answer. As a strict equality feminist I wonder how many things/situations REALLY need to be identified as male or female?

I'll let you know about the horn but I wanna be a sparkly unicorn. =D

[Kaitlyn Michele]

you don't have to think it to death if you just transition.. its part of why what you do about it matters so much... you can't lay it at others feet to affirm your womanhood if you are not willing or able to live a woman's life...some may buy in, some wont...

i had a situation where my best best buddy is very tg and likes me as her friend that is a girl...she struggles with lots of side issues and just is stuck in place

but with us, with me, its always Jane...jane jane jane...for about 5 years...yes i knew her "guy" side(shes married)...but even then it was jane...even with her wife...
recently she took me (her in guy mode) to an artists event and told me on the way over..."hey kait, for these people i'm Jim"..... on the outside i was like , ok...i hear you...that's going to be weird... we went and had a nice time...
later i realized i felt awful...i felt like i had been abandoned...all that energy to correctly gender her...all that patience while she obsessed over whether she passed (she really didn't..which implicates me btw)

...and to her it was just..."ok i'm him for a while"...like it was nothing...it wasnt nothing to me...


++++++++++++++++++

and Kelly one day the young folks will be old and they will realize there are at LEAST a million pieces laying around somewhere...they just won't remember where to find them...

[ReineD]

Deb, you know that many of the CDers in the CD section engage in fantasies of being women, and many love to say they are lesbian. Actually, this is what characterizes one of the difference between a CDer and a TS. The former either has made the decision to express a duality of gender, or engages in fantasies of being a woman while still reverting to a life in guy mode, while for the latter the gender dysphoria is so severe that it is a question of 24/7 real life survival, needing to been seen by society as a woman.

And so it makes sense that people who are not TS would be much more open to the idea that gender is completely self-determined. It is convenient for them because to do otherwise might make them feel as if their feminine aspirations are no more than fantasy.

Still, no one can dismiss the fact that along with the question of how a person sees him/herself (no one disputes a person's right to define themselves), gender determination is greatly defined by how others see us ... else CDers would never bother putting on women's clothes, forms, and makeup, would they. So the larger question is whether most members of society including lesbians are prepared to acknowledge that women do have penises that they enjoy and want to keep. I honestly don't think this is going to happen for deeper reasons than gender politics. Because along with a workable penis, there is a slew of subtle and not so subtle male behaviors that are difficult to characterize but that shine through.

I'm a strong believer that 95% of the communication of who we are is not in words. It is instead in our unspoken attitudes, influenced by hormones and other brain chemicals, and that also shine through in our body language. Men with working penises have a lot more testosterone than women.

[kellycan27]

Kelly one day the young folks will be old and they will realize there are at LEAST a million pieces laying around somewhere...they just won't remember where to find them...

I hope it didn't sound like I was taking a pot shot at late transitioners.... Hopefully by the time those who have transitioned at a younger age do grow old.. The "pieces" won't matter and the need to remember where to find them won't either.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i forget what we were talking about...:battingeyelashes:

[Debglam]

And so it makes sense that people who are not TS would be much more open to the idea that gender is completely self-determined. It is convenient for them because to do otherwise might make them feel as if their feminine aspirations are no more than fantasy.

Still, no one can dismiss the fact that along with the question of how a person sees him/herself (no one disputes a person's right to define themselves), gender determination is greatly defined by how others see us ... else CDers would never bother putting on women's clothes, forms, and makeup, would they. So the larger question is whether most members of society including lesbians are prepared to acknowledge that women do have penises that they enjoy and want to keep. I honestly don't think this is going to happen for deeper reasons than gender politics. Because along with a workable penis, there is a slew of subtle and not so subtle male behaviors that are difficult to characterize but that shine through.

I'm a strong believer that 95% of the communication of who we are is not in words. It is instead in our unspoken attitudes, influenced by hormones and other brain chemicals, and that also shine through in our body language. Men with working penises have a lot more testosterone than women.

Reine, I agree with most of this. I do think that there is a fundamental distinction in the transgender community between those who present as other than the gender they were identified as at birth for reasons central to their identity and those that do so for other reasons (sexual, entertainment, etc.). I would accept the argument that to be "transsexual" their needs to be some level of transition.

I do think that there is a difference between the physical and the core identity of an individual so that a woman can have a penis. There are lesbians that accept a trans person with a penis as both a woman and a lesbian. Is this the minority view? Probably but I don't know. I also think that having the "wrong gear" does not automatically force you out of the binary.



i forget what we were talking about...:battingeyelashes:

I do apologize to Nicole Erin!

Maybe anything else on this should go in a new thread? Still want to bump to Autostraddle.com! What a great site! :)