Giving up one's seat

[sandra-leigh]

I was on a city bus this evening, which filled up just to the point of having about two people stand. The standee further back, a woman, was heading close to me, and I said to myself, "I should do the polite thing and stand up to let a woman sit down." She stopped a distance away from me and made herself comfortable there, and I was left puzzling over the situation.

For those who are trans-female, is there a social etiquette about offering one's seat to adult women who look adequately fit, when one would not offer to an equivalent male of the same situation?

I am not referring to situations involving the elderly or seemingly infirm, or those burdened with parcels, or parents with children -- people who look as if they need the seat more pressingly: I am referring to the social convention that a "male" should give up a seat to a female. I have lived with that convention for so long that deliberately disregarding it feels... selfish. Even when I have manageable packages and my back is only acting up moderately (if my back is acting up strongly then I know myself to be infirm enough myself to need the seat.)

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I was only on that first bus about half a mile, after which I transferred, and ended up standing near the back of the bus. On either side of me, single males were occupying more than half of the nominally two-seat area, not leaving enough room for anyone to sit down. (Those particular seats are smaller than the others on the bus, so an adult taking up more than half is typical -- but in my experience, women are more likely to recognize the situation and "make themselves smaller" so as to fit another person.)

Behind me, the seat at the back of the bus, a single wide male was sitting in the middle, with not enough room on either side of him for anyone to sit down comfortably; I could see there was enough room for someone if he had moved over, but on the other hand with the seat design, if he had moved, he would have ended up sitting somewhat uncomfortably on the raised area between two dips. It was clear that he was someone who really did need extra room.

Just slightly in front of me was a male sitting in the isle side of a full-sized double seat, with nothing in the window seat side. He never once looked around to see whether someone might have need of a seat. He used the space to read the newspaper, "being big". I was standing close to him, parcels in hand (and back acting up.) More than once I was tempted to say something to him to make him aware of his being inconsiderate.

As I looked ahead in the bus, I could see that everywhere that women had sat down first, they had made room for someone else. And everywhere that one person was occupying multiple seats in the standing-room-only bus, that person was male.

Eventually one lf the not-full-sized seats emptied and I had a chance to sit down. The next stop along, someone headed to the back and needed a seat... and I squeezed over and "made myself small". Which is normal for me: someone needs a seat, of course I try to accommodate them. I don't think of it in terms of gender; it's more like "What's there to think about? You're alive, you share."

And yet... the only male taking extra room who looked around at all or gave any recognition of taking up extra room, was the extra-wide fellow who really did need extra room.

What would you say: is this kind of consideration inherently gender related, perhaps Lack Of it being related to "dominance" ? Or is it a gender-linked social role, that women are expected to give way and so they do? Or was it just random chance / selective observation?

[Emma Beth]

Actually, I think it's more of a generational/upbringing kind of thing. I have noticed that more of the younger people that are into adulthood tend to be much more inconsiderate of others. I'm not saying that all are like this, just that it seems to be the norm. To me, it looks like common courtesy is something that is disappearing. This is something that I have noticed over the years because I have worked at a grocery store for the last 12 years, and working with the general public like I have you do see a lot of things that make you just shake your head in disbelief.

Jamie

[Rogina B]

Most women have far better social skills as you observed..In a busy bar or club bathroom,I always let em go first..I make more new friends that way..talking in the waiting line..lol

[JenniferMBlack]

Actually, I think it's more of a generational/upbringing kind of thing. I have noticed that more of the younger people that are into adulthood tend to be much more inconsiderate of others. I'm not saying that all are like this, just that it seems to be the norm. To me, it looks like common courtesy is something that is disappearing. This is something that I have noticed over the years because I have worked at a grocery store for the last 12 years, and working with the general public like I have you do see a lot of things that make you just shake your head in disbelief.

Jamie

I agree here with Jamie. Also having worked in retail for the last 5 my eyes have really been opened to others manners or lack there of.Watch poepls some time when you are at a retail store and really take notice, some of my peeves are looking at something and not putting it back in the correct lacation and blocking an entire isle so others can't get down it, also watch how many children are running around throwing things and being loud. And if your lucky you can catch some one being out right nasty and rude to a s/a, includeing profanity and ocassionally threats.
Last week when I was on my lunch break a guy was in the store yelling at the top of his lungs hello I need help because the S/a in the immediate area was with another customer and he was apparently to lazy to walk the 10 yards to go over and ask for some help at another desk, or just push the button that tells them you need help.

[I Am Paula]

There's a difference between common courtesy, and learning new etiquette when en femme. Courtesy would be for any gender to give up their seat to an older, pregnant, or infirm person. Gender courtesy says that as a fellow woman, I do not have to give up my seat just because someone owns a vagina. Not a double standard, just the way gender etiquette works. Same as opening doors. When I was a guy, I would open the door in front of me for ladies to enter. As a girl, I just go thru', but hold the door behind me for the next person. For the sake of being female, sometimes we must forget our previous version of courtesy, and go with the new status quo.
If a woman drops a penny, any man should pick it up. A woman just looks at her like 'you dropped some change'.
'Ladies first' is a rule for men. 'Me first' is more ladylike.-Celeste

[Paulette]

It is so true that we must re-learn some things such as holding doors. When I first went out with a GG friend I would attempt to open the door for her. She taught me that when dressed as a woman it is every girl for themselves at the door. In order for me to learn she would always have me follow her into the stores or restaurants. With leading it was easy to pick up the clues to proper courtesy. It was a bit uncomfortable at first but now comes second nature. I do enjoy arriving at a door and having a man open it for me.

[sandra-leigh]

Actually, I think it's more of a generational/upbringing kind of thing. I have noticed that more of the younger people that are into adulthood tend to be much more inconsiderate of others.

The youngest of the taking-up-extra-space males was the extra-wide fellow, the only one that showed any discomfort about the fact he was taking extra room. The man who was taking up both of the full-sized seats was perhaps mid 30s. The two that were taking up all of the smaller double seats were older generation, one of them apparently older than me.


Same as opening doors. When I was a guy, I would open the door in front of me for ladies to enter. As a girl, I just go thru', but hold the door behind me for the next person.

I go out of my way to hold doors for those with walkers or wheelchairs or strollers; or occasionally if there is a stream of people it just feels appropriate to hold the door for them. Otherwise, and especially at places like shopping malls, I go through and only hold the door a small number of seconds, long enough for someone a couple of steps behind to take it instead of the door closing in their face or them having to deal with the momentum of it being in the process of closing; in doing so I only pay attention to who is coming through long enough to assess if they need extra assistance. (Now that I think of it, if the person behind is a young child, I may hold the door longer, as doors can be heavy.) Gender neutral, needs assessed instead.

[ReineD]

She taught me that when dressed as a woman it is every girl for themselves at the door.

I strongly disagree with this. Polite people, male or female, will hold the door for the next person whether they are male or female. I do. And I go out of my way to keep the door open if I see someone coming up behind me who might need assistance, whether they have a cane, are in a wheelchair, have a stroller, or an armful of packages, male or female.

To Sandra, I've had men refuse to go in first when I held the door open for them, so I quietly nodded, smiled, went in first while casually making sure that the door did not slam in their face, all the while appreciating the gesture and telling myself that they had had a traditional upbringing. The men who have insisted that I go first have spanned all ages, so I do think it's a matter of upbringing.

I agree that men no longer are universally chivalrous as they might have been in the last generation, but the world has changed since then with the narrowing of workplace gender roles and the resulting shifts in household responsibilities. Sociological articles that I read speak of this being a confusing time for some men (and some women too), with men at either end and in between the "finders keepers" and "ladies first" spectrum. Same applies to women, I think. "Male chivalry" or "female politeness and consideration" can no longer be considered strictly male or female qualities. They are now universal qualities that indicate a person's good breeding, although I do think that women still are socialized more than men to put themselves aside for others, simply because they are the ones who have the babies and care for them more than men do.


I was standing close to him, parcels in hand (and back acting up.) More than once I was tempted to say something to him to make him aware of his being inconsiderate.

I would most definitely have spoken up, and said, "Excuse me", nodding towards the empty seat. But, I would not have chastised him. I would have either assumed that he had other things on his mind and had not noticed me standing next to him laden with packages, or if his body language had indicated resentment at my wanting the empty seat, I would have told myself that he was rather self-centered and I would have felt sorry for his wife. :p

[Kathryn Martin]

They are now universal qualities that indicate a person's good breeding, although I do think that women still are socialized more than men to put themselves aside

I love you for using the words "good breeding". My mother always used to refer to this as showing "the child's nursery". You know we actually bought a book on etiquette for our all female office last year.

The way I was raised emphasized courteous behavior and form. My mother used to say that it is the only thing that stands between the jungle and us. I so agree. And it takes nothing away from spontaneity. As a 59 year old woman I do reap the benefits of courtesy.

[Frances]

For those who are trans-female, is there a social etiquette about offering one's seat to adult women who look adequately fit, when one would not offer to an equivalent male of the same situation?

I am a little confused by this. Why would give my seat to another adult women who is fit because of my transsexual past? I am an adult woman too.

[sandra-leigh]

Quite, Frances, I thought that as well -- but my social instincts haven't re-adjusted yet, and remaining sitting instinctively "felt wrong" until my logic kicked in. Was this kind of mental re-adjustment one of the processes you went through during your RLE ?

[Frances]

Yes, I had to go through some re-adjustement of the sort. Social conventions are not the same when you communicate a female gender to the world. I am used to it now.

[melissaK]

Who can explain everyone on a bus. What was that Alanis Morrisette song, "What if God Was One of Us":

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

When I see someone taking two seats for no reason, I smile and ask if they can move a bit and let me sit. I can't recall ever being told no. I tell them thanks.

And I'm going to sound elitist, but bus people in my town are usually from the lowest economic classes, many on welfare, many in the poorest paying jobs for all the reasons social workers well know. Mix in a few others relegated to the bus by DUI status and you don't have an enlightened ridership. I think the best you can do is smile and lead by example, regardless of what gender you are.

I'm lucky enough to not have to ride a bus.

[JessicaM1985]

Being instinctively kind is never a bad trait to have, and should be done regardless of gender. Don't let gender roles rise above being kind to your fellow human beings. :)

[Frances]

Who can explain everyone on a bus. What was that Joan Osborne song, "One of Us."

Fixed it for you.

[melissaK]

Thanks Frances! You're a Sweetie!

[Saffron]

Actually, I think it's more of a generational/upbringing kind of thing. I have noticed that more of the younger people that are into adulthood tend to be much more inconsiderate of others. I'm not saying that all are like this, just that it seems to be the norm. To me, it looks like common courtesy is something that is disappearing.

I noticed that young people has lost the "etiquette of a gentleman", but only because most of it was sexist. A male giving a seat to a female is plain sexist.

In my experience common courtesy hasn't disappeared, only changed.

[Aprilrain]

I agree with Reine, I think "unlearning" to hold the door is just silly. However I do agree that it would be awkward uncomfortable if I as a woman just decided to give up my seat to another equally fit and unburdened woman, that I wouldn't do.

I do think it's a "breeding" thing, it was hammered into me when I was young (mostly by my mother) to hold the door. On One of the first dates my wife and I went on she was very impressed that I held the door for her. My intention was not to impress her it was just a normal reaction for me. She comes from a very different back ground than me and I can see where most if not all of the males she had dated or been related to had never held a door for her before.

[JackieInPA]

On a recent trip to Toronto i was with my wife and a friend, I was the first of us to the door so i held it for them...a gentleman was also coming behind so i continued to hold the door open. H absolutely refused to allow me to hold the door for him. He insisted "ladies first." I was the first time that ever happened to me. I was a weird warm fuzzy feeling.

[LeaP]

The first time someone held a door for me, I was completely flummoxed. He sort of jumped ahead a little bit to grab the door, held it and smiled. I'm thinking: "WTF? Oh, yeah... It's right! It's wrong! No, it's right!" Followed by a fleeting fear of being read. (I wasn't.) I'm sure I came off like a complete idiot, between over-thanking him, looking down, et cetera. Christ, that was awkward. But it was one of my first times out and I was already in a pretty high state of anxiety as it was.

I don't entirely agree with the comment that traditional manners are sexist. One reason is that they are more bidirectional these days. A woman is as frequently holding the door as having it held for her. That was the case for me walking into work this morning. Second, there are some basic dynamics between the sexes that will never change. Without getting into any detail on that (as it would be a separate topic), let me just say that these are deeply rooted in instinctive courting rituals as much as easing social interactions, formal and casual. The forms change but they continue to exist, regardless of the culture or times.

[ReineD]

... let me just say that these are deeply rooted in instinctive courting rituals as much as easing social interactions, formal and casual.

... and to some degree, differences in physical strength too.

[Dawn cd]

I live in the city where busses and subways are nearly always crowded. The modern ethos holds that people do not give up seats to women and older men (like me) unless we are obviously frail or handicapped or pregnant—criteria which I fail to meet on all counts. Welcome to gender equality! On the other hand I hold doors for everyone, male or female.