Not telling or lying

[andrea lace]

I have read quite a few posts now about telling your SO.
Every situation is different and within those situations are many CDers that chose not to tell there SOs that they like to wear women's clothes. My question is how many members of this forum believe that not telling the wife is the same as lying to them. My wife and I have been married for 17 years and I only told her 3 months ago. I don't believe that I was lying to her all these years. I mean I had a hard enough time admitting to myself that I liked to present as a woman let alone tell my wife about it. I firmly believe that secrets are not free and they inevitably end up costing somebody more than they were willing to pay, but is it telling the one you love lies, when it could end up costing you both so much?

[Jenni Yumiko]

I believe I was lying by omission, which makes it still a lie. If I could do it over I wouldn't. And other than that my wife knows everything about me, even the things my family and siblings don't know.

[Jodi]

It isn't whether we consider it a lie, it's whether the SO considers it a lie. When I told my wife, now ex-wife, she considered it a lie that I had not told her.

Jodi

[Jenniferathome]

My question is how many members of this forum believe that not telling the wife is the same as lying to them.

I never thought of it as lying while I was hiding. THAT'S the problem. I didn't consider it as such. My wife did. Living in denial is something I think we cross dressers are good at. Something of this magnitude is clearly a lie. If one cheats on one's wife and doesn't tell, is that lying? Of course it is.

[PaulaQ]

It's a lie. There are some valid reasons for lying, but nevertheless, it's a lie. (A classic one, and a fairly compelling one, is that some of us drop this for a period of years. We may lie to ourselves and think "I'm cured! That was embarrassing, hope nobody finds out!", and get married during the "great purge.")

Lying because you are lying to yourself is a lesser offense to my mind than setting out to willfully and knowingly deceive someone. (Example: You made up your entire past and background because it was criminal - she literally doesn't know a thing about you.) Still - this is lying.

[Mikkigurll]

Yes, it is lying.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Andrea, You can call it what you want but you are decieving your wife by hiding
your CDing and it probably will not end well for you.

[sherib]

Call it what you like its still a lie.

[PaulaQ]

The only exception I can think of would involve situations where you are quite certain your wife wants to be lied to. There are people who simply don't want to deal with some things, sweeping them under the rug, letting someone else deal with them. I can't imagine these are happy situations usually, but that's not for me to judge.

[Fran Moore]

This poor, poor horse......

Lying = when she asks you "are you a crossdresser"? Your answer is NO! That is a lie. (if you truly are one, and not living in denial of it, or even if you are in denial)

Living a lie = when you crossdress and don't divulge to her that you are doing so.

There actually is a difference (in my mind)

But if you don't divulge to her that you crossdress, and you are living a lie, does that mean that all the other things that you have done in your life prior to, and currently that you choose not to divulge means that you are living a lie about all that as well? Does that make you just a BIG FAT LIAR? Where does it stop? :eek:

Don't we all have some things in and about our lives that we just choose to keep secret, private, you know, those innermost thoughts?

Example:

That dress actually DOES make her butt look big
I'm oddly attracted to that guy dressed as a women
I wonder what it would be like to have real breasts
My first girlfriend was actually a better sexual partner than my spouse
I was sexually molested by a priest when I was nine
etc., etc., etc.

Are you a LIAR?

I think if you can truly and honestly answer no to this than you are in a minority, but hey I could be wrong......

But then again, I could be LYING!

[AllieSF]

Well, to me based on my understanding of the meaning of lying, which I just Googled and read on Dictionary.com, not revealing is not lying. I think that we should be using the correct terminology here. In the case of CD's when they have never told a lie, it is withholding important information from someone who may take different actions if they know that information in a timely manner. I think that a lot of people here like the term lying because it is easier to understand in the context of CD's and their SO's, is what a lot of surprised SO's say after they found out, and that it carries generally a more negative connotation than failing to reveal something important, which helps make it worse then it really should be if they still love each other. Instead of being a serious issue, it becomes a justification for not unreasonable reactions and for not trying to really make an effort to understand.

That being said, I also agree that it is better to inform your SO prior to making that big commitment to each other from living together to getting married, and to also try to tell the SO as soon as possible if that pre-commitment reveal was never made. However, that is where the rubber meets the road and making that decision to reveal and its subsequent potentially very negative consequences is totally up to the revealer to decide. For those who are in long term relationships and have never told their SO's for whatever reason, that reveal becomes even harder.

Here on this site we are all adults and are responsible for our own, not others', decisions. I personally know of a few instances that not telling was and still is the best option based on what I understand of the situation. That last part is also key here because who really knows what situation the other is in. We can always recommend, but in my opinion never require or demand that another do what we think is best.

I have read a just a few posts by new GG's here that stated that they actually preferred to never have known about this side of their SO's life because it gave them a big burden to carry and really complicated their own lives. I also know a limited few CD's that have been successful in keeping this side of their lives secret for many years.

I personally will somehow figure how to tell an SO before it becomes too serious. I am definitely not looking forward to that moment for a lot of reasons. One is just how to overcome the fear of the big reveal. Others include hoping that she will react maturely and with a lot of common sense, which from the many posts here is not something that can be readily expected from a GG, especially one that we are just getting to know. I know I would be devastated if I made that momentous decision to tell only to have her go off the handle, unreasonably in my opinion, and then tell everyone else just to hurt me. Yeah, and I thought I knew her!

Some couples are actually lucky to have a great communication process with their SO's and because of that working process are much better equipped to handle serious surprises in life and in their own relationships. However, I have to say that I only know of a few relationships (the minority) that are successful in that way. When we have an over 50% divorce rate in the USA, then I think it is easy to extrapolate that almost that same number do not have a great communication process and who knows how the other will react when that big reveal happens. All food for thought when trying to decide what to do.

[PaulaQ]

I guess I should clarify then - based on the only definition I actually care about - what my wife will think, a lie by omission (what this technically is) is still a lie. I am 100% sure she will feel this way. Obviously not everyone will feel the same.

[sandra-leigh]

I became frighteningly good at telling only part of the truth, or telling irrelevant truths.

"I went by the mall tonight and picked up some milk." -- Completely true, but the milk was my cover story for cloth shopping for 2 hours.

"There is a computer club meeting downtown near my work tonight." -- Yes, there was, but I didn't go there, I went to the cross-dressing meeting a few blocks away.

"I stayed a bit late and it takes me a while to get home on the bus." -- Yup. But what I did is taxied to the meeting, stayed about half an hour, and taxied from there home.

In time I was literally getting sick to my stomach, upset at my deliberate misdirections: it was in opposition to the kind of person I wanted to be.

[ReineD]

As soon as you realize this is a part of who you are no matter how infrequently you dress, then it is a lie if you don't tell.

Some of you might say that it is not a part of who you are, it is just something that you do. If you do it regularly or if it important to you, then you are lying if you don't tell.

[Wildaboutheels]

Withholding certain information from others is normal Human behavior and is NOT lying. Just because we LOVE our kids, wives or SOs, doesn't need we need to tell them "everything". What a rediculous scenario...

[PaulaQ]

Withholding certain information from others is normal Human behavior and is NOT lying. Just because we LOVE our kids, wives or SOs, doesn't need we need to tell them "everything". What a rediculous scenario...

Should I have withheld my alcoholism from my future wife? I'd been sober all of 3 years. It's been 23 now - but I could just have easily slipped at 5 years, and died from it. Would that have been ethical? Would that have been lying?

I had no magical way of predicting the future. I believed I wouldn't relapse into alcoholism, and I didn't. But she couldn't have known that - so I did the only thing I could do, and told her.

She had dealt with an alcoholic in her family before - and swore "never again." The chance she'd have dumped me because of that was quite high. Somehow she didn't.

I think it's hard to justify withholding crucial information from the person you intend to spend the rest of your life with. Everyone else? Sure - protect yourself, only tell people who need to know - maybe nobody else.

Bear in mind - if I hadn't told her that I drank, she'd have never known because in 23 years, I have not touched a drop.

How is this any different? I'm willing to listen to compelling arguments.

Or do you think I had no obligation to disclose my alcoholism to my wife. She didn't live through it with me. Maybe you feel that would've been an ethical choice.

I'm all ears.

[stacycoral]

That is a hard thing to decieded, since i told my wife before we were married some 20 years ago, i just told my sister this week, and will not tell my parents, because they would never understand, i a way some people you want to protect, and not embrass them to because want we love to do. hugs.

[AllyCDTV]

"Truth" is subjective and overrated. Is everybody supposed to tell everyone about everything? Give me a break. If women knew half of what goes on in men's minds they'd have nothing to do with us and it would be the end of the human race. Similarly if politicians were held to the same standard some of us are trying to hold each other to, we would have anarchy as our form of government. The real world is not black and white. All the pollyannas out there that think the world would be a better place if nobody lied need to grow up.

The thought that honesty is the best policy in all cases is one of the biggest farces I have seen on this forum. It is a good policy but it is not the best in all cases. It bothers me to think that someone may blindly follow this advice to come out as a crossdresser to their SO just because it worked out in a small handful of instances. It appears that, based on the stories I have seen on this forum coming out rarely works out for the best. And to use the excuse that it would always be better coming from the crossdresser rather than the SO finding out on their own is wishful thinking. Either way it's gonna be a bad situation in most cases and it will be very difficult to make any good come out of it.

As to whether omission is lying, perhaps the better question is: To what end does disclosure serve? Will it increase overall suffering of all involved or decrease it? Or is there a different path such as ending the marriage or quitting crossdressing which would be better?

[Beverley Sims]

I feel that not telling your wife can be a wise tactical move sometimes.
I do advocate there is a time to tell so as it does not wreck your marriage.
If you continue to hide it you are only cheating yourself, and when you do tell a lot of doubt and suspicion can be added to the mix.

[ReineD]

Ally, are you in a serious relationship or have you ever been in one? The type of relationship where all you want to do is be together, you don't get bored talking until the wee hours of the morning, you both seem to never get enough of each other, and neither one of you can do any wrong in the other person's eyes?

If you haven't experienced this, then I understand why you think that it's OK to treat a partner with the same distance, have the same privacy rules, as you would treat a roommate or a coworker.

Men who are in love do let their guard down and they do tell their intimate secrets, as do the women. But, I suspect that this is more difficult for some of the crossdressers who have built rather thick walls around themselves in order to not let the world see what was inside ... and so it is rather terrifying to let someone else in, isn't it.

[PaulaQ]

quitting crossdressing which would be better?

If I could do that - I wouldn't be on this forum. I've tried to suppress this for 40 years. I simply am unable to do so. I know when I'm beaten. More to the point - I believe now this is a part of me. Indeed, I think it *is* me, at least the parts of my personality that are actually worth much of anything. Anyway, I don't have much energy left to be at war with myself. I give.

Suppose I won the lotto - would it be OK to not tell my wife?
Suppose I got diabetes - would that be OK to not tell my wife?
Suppose I have a financial setback, or lose my job - should I not tell that until we're evicted?
Suppose I am in a position to retire early - no bad consequences at all, but don't want to quit my job - can I neglect to mention that because I want to keep working?

Where exactly do you draw the line?


All the pollyannas out there that think the world would be a better place if nobody lied need to grow up.

Well, I'd never suggest that - there are many who will hurt you if they have truthful information about you. There is a need for privacy. However, I would suggest that if you include, in the circle of people who need to be lied to and can't be trusted, your wife, then I'd question your thinking on this.


It bothers me to think that someone may blindly follow this advice to come out as a crossdresser to their SO just because it worked out in a small handful of instances.

I would hope no one would blindly follow anyone's advice - to either tell or not tell.

Look, it is possible that in many cases, the lesser of two evils is to deceive. This is ugly, but the world is ugly sometimes, and our lot is hard. But if that is the choice you have to make - fine - but don't rationalize it, be honest with yourself about and what you are doing.

The problem with rationalizing it is it's easy to do exactly the WRONG thing - because hiding is easy. Many of us learned to hide really young. Sometimes hiding is the right thing to do - I'm not crazy or stupid. But if you are going to lie to your spouse - do it because you know that this is the least bad outcome for them, not because it's the least bad outcome FOR YOU. And know that you are denying them a choice, and the ethics of that are questionable, in my opinion.

[Lovepython]

This can be confusing because it can change over time. I know in my situation what was a once in a while thing (CDing) has taken on more importance as I grew older. I now identify much more with expressing my feminine side.

In a past relationship I told my SO once things started to get serious. It came at a point about three months into the relationship when we thought it might be time to live together. After some thought she not only accepted it but was actually turned on by it. There were never any boundaries. If I was dressed up she couldn't last more than 15 or 20 minutes before she grabbed me by the hand and marched me off to the bedroom. It was great from that perspective. For other reasons we did go our separate ways.

I think you absolutely must tell but I understand how difficult this can be in a relationship you've been in for a number of years. As things change in way we don't necessarily understand or expect it can really cause problems in a long term relationship. I also sympathize with the GGs in those relationships. It often does seem like the whole truth wasn't shared. Some secret was hidden away and after 10 or 20 years of devotion to a relationship this CDing thing gets sprung on them. Wow.

I also know I couldn't be in a relationship where my CDing wasn't accepted. It's just too much of an integral part of me. I wouldn't want to be involved with someone who couldn't accept me. The relationship ends up being shallow and things really do get hidden away. It's no way to live for me. Couldn't do it. Everyone has to make their own choices in life.

[PaulaQ]

But, I suspect that this is more difficult for some of the crossdressers who have built rather thick walls around themselves in order to not let the world see what was inside ... and so it is rather terrifying to let someone else in, isn't it.

This is precisely how I feel.

[Rachelakld]

Technically "no",
but emotionally and morally yes, and women are big into emotions and morality.
I feel the time from before you admitted your crossdressing nature, probably was not a lie, but once you accept this truth, then it should be a truth shared with your SO.
I would prefer anyone with the fantasy of wearing stockings or frilly underware to share this with their SO, and if it goes full scale, to also be a shared and hopefully a fun adventure

Spoke to wife about it, she disagrees totally with me, the omission of the fact, could be for the greater good of the family and mentioned various senarios to back up her view point.
As I tell my girls, if me and mum give different advise, mums is normaly the best option.

[Wildaboutheels]

Seeing things in B&W is something adults should outgrow.

IMO.

Trying to lump ALL CDers ... or black people or females or teenagers or Gay people or men or any Human into some preconceived box will only lead to mistakes. Perhaps fatal ones for those people who think with their eyes and not their brains. Of course one CAN throw out the tired old argument that anyone who doesn't "HAVE TO" dress is not "really a CDer" if it makes you feel better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF9T4OpGNQY

[Ellanore G.G.]

I was told before we married and yet I feel I was Lied to:straightface:
I feel he made light of the fetish side, how often he c/ded,
What it really meant to him, How totally obsessed he was,
How much money he really spent on his "stash"
I had no clue about c/ding when we met, so to be told ,
"oh its not a big thing " and then to Marry and watch this unfold
because he thought I was ok, and he had a green light was devastating to both of us.
It took us years, and I mean years, to get this all out and be 100% honest.
He still Lied , because if he wanted to do something, that would cause me to become
fearful or anxious, he would lie, and then go ahead and do it anyway.
Those were his fetish days, when his whole life revolved around thrill seeking.
So this is the confusing part for me ??????
If I had known all this before I married :sad: would I have married him....100000% NO .
but getting to know him, and he had to get to know himself first,
We are totally honest, and happy now.
So was it good he lied ?
Well he thinks he didnt lie, just believed he could keep it in a " now and again place":doh:

[Stevie]

I didn't think I was lying at first but when she kept finding my things was when I was actually lying about it.

[suzy1]

Are you a LIAR?

I think if you can truly and honestly answer no to this than you are in a minority, but hey I could be wrong......

But then again, I could be LYING!

If you answer no to this question you are a liar!

For goodness sake climb down off your high horses some of you and join the rest of us in the real world. Or is your world all black or white?

[andrea lace]

Thanks for all your input on this topic. It seems to me to be a mixed bag. But on the whole us cross dressers seem to be an honest bunch. Thanks

[genevie]

We both agreed 15 years ago that I would not do it around her. She really never liked it and it made me feel uncomfortable. We don't talk about it. She thinks I don't do it anymore. She is uncomfortable about the whole subject. Hints are still dropped but those always result in a big negative reaction. I test. Yup. Still the same feelings. Not going there. Still has to be secret.

[Ceri Anne]

As someone in the closet with my wife, I do consider it being dishonest. I have been married for 28 years. some rocky, some smooth. In that time, I know my wife is reactionary, wears her emotions on her sleeve, and is generally not accepting of things not considered "the norm". That said, I have a strong desire to come out to her, to be honest, yet there is much at stake. So in answer to your question, is it lying? yes. Is it right to hide it for good reasons? no. Is it sometimes benificial for all involved to be less than truthful? It can be.

Myself, I am choosing to remain hidden, but ernestly working to come clean, and that desire is growing stronger all the time. For the record, I am only a crossdresser. I have no need to fully transition at this time. I do have the desire, and do dress often though.

[happyallie]

A good friend of mine once said, a half truth is still a lie. I think that has some merit.

[Amy Fakley]

Withholding certain information from others is normal Human behavior and is NOT lying. Just because we LOVE our kids, wives or SOs, doesn't need we need to tell them "everything". What a rediculous scenario...

It's not often I agree with you, Wild but you're 100% correct on this.
We're all adults here, and this sunday-school definition of lying is pedantic, and only serves one purpose: to lay guilt on a closeted person with the intention of encouraging them to come out.

As transgendered people, we have more than enough guilt in our lives, without this additional crapola. Look, if you want to get really petty, by this definition it is literally impossible crossdress and not lie, as you're presenting a falsehood right from the start: you're a man presenting as a woman. BOOM: there's a big ol' lie right there.

There are so many guilt-trips on this board about "telling" that we might as well be getting frequent flyer miles by now. this is an internet forum for crossdressers, 99% of us are further back in the closet than last year's Christmas fruitcake! It honestly boggles my mind.

Telling your spouse about your crossdressing is a huge, huge step with irreversible consequences. It should not be taken lightly, it should not be rushed into. I can't imagine why as an opinionated stranger on the internet, I could even remotely presume to tell someone that they need to take a step like this.

[~Joanne~]

I agree with mfakley and wildabout, this is a just as serious step as marriage. Once you let this out of the bag, there's no putting it back. No one should be pressured into doing anything they are uncomfortable with. If your not comfortable with your dressing yourself, why should you even believe that your GF/SO/Wife will be or follow the advice of those that haven't done it themselves? Most that have are now single or with ex's and those that have the support have a long road to travel to acceptance.

I will say this though, You SHOULD lay this out before you get married. I know marriage isn't as sacred as it was back in the day (call me old if you like) and people are getting married 3-4 times but it should be a one time deal and you shouldn't go into it without completely knowing the woman your going to marry or her without completely knowing you. I was basically forced out to my SO through my own fears but I would have never walked the isle without her knowing this about me.

Now is this a lie? I guess that is based upon opinion. A lot say yes, some say no, and the definition says no. Do I personally have an opinion of it? yes but my opinion is just that, an opinion, and I truly have no answers to what is right or wrong when it comes to this topic because each situation is different.

I do see a lot of "pressure" posts on the forum though, like if a lot more of us were out there that this would become more acceptable to the world a lot faster. Who knows, it might but it hasn't worked out that way for the gay community. Yes it's a bit more acceptable but society isn't rolling over for it any time soon.

[Eryn]

Whether or not it is considered lying is determined by each person's own agenda. An unaccepting SO isn't going to debate dictionary definitions.

What is more important, IMO, is who you tell first. A spouse is supposed to be the most trusted person in one's life.

It took me a long time to decide to tell anyone about my CDing, once I realized what it was. When I did, my wife was the first to know.

[Stephanie47]

This seems to be one of the perpetual threads along with "What color panty are you wearing?"

I'll agree with Jemnialy, if one had knowledge of your cross dressing desires prior to marriage, it is lying by omission. It is concealing a vital piece of information your intended spouse should have known about. So, now you've made the 'required' disclosure and she tells her intended husband that "Hey, that's really great! Let's doll you up and go out!" Then she gets turned off by it which is not an uncommon thing once the newness of marriage occurs. Then what?

[Lorileah]

Without getting too deep into this but many of you know my situation over the last 4 years. What I want to point out is that when you find out something that was withheld, it hurts. it hurts badly. In my case I specifically asked my GF "Have you ever been married or had children?" Her answer was no and I left it at that, trusting her. If the answer had been yes the relationship would have changed I understand that but it would not have ended. Why she felt I didn't need to know I will never know but I can tell you that at her death and finding out all the "secrets" I was in deeper shock. It took months to even function at a close to normal level. So what? you say. Well, to me this is very similar to what TG's do here. You withhold information that may OR may not be pertinent to your relationship, but basically you are saying "I don't trust you can handle it and this I made the decision for you".

I have entered a new relationship now and I can tell you that I reveal ANYTHING that may make an impact on it to my new SO. He can decide what to do with it and yes every time I give new information I worry that that will be the one thing that ends the whole thing. But I would rather do that now before we both get so entwined that we feel we are in a position where we feel we cannot get out. Then there would be anger and bitterness.



I became frighteningly good at telling only part of the truth, or telling irrelevant truths.
In time I was literally getting sick to my stomach, upset at my deliberate misdirections: it was in opposition to the kind of person I wanted to be.

I know the feeling. Been there. And it isn't fun. That does not make for a good relationship and I know that my wife "knew" what I was doing (not anything to do with CDing at the time but I never said I was perfect) and when I told her the misdirection, you could see the facial expression change from concern to disappointment.



Withholding certain information from others is normal Human behavior and is NOT lying. Just because we LOVE our kids, wives or SOs, doesn't need we need to tell them "everything". What a rediculous scenario...

No you don't need to tell about the time you got drunk in 8th grade. How you tried illicit drugs. How you drove too fast without your seat belt. You don't need to tell them how you lusted for the little redheaded girl in math class. None of those things will affect their lives. But withholding information that may affect how they live their life from now on IS a lie. You take away their choices. You basically tell them you don't trust them or you believe they are so immature you need to guide them. It is a violation of trust. And Trust is a foundation to a healthy relationship. This does not mean on the first date you tell your life story, but when the opportunity arises and you choose to keep information a secret you deny the other person the ability to make a choice. It is a lie and it is a selfish lie because the reason you keep it is for YOU not them (say all you will but when they cannot make the decision, it is YOUR selfishness that is the issue).

[cathie pantyhose]

a marriage is based on the trust of two people. A lie is a lie if all is not revealed. Secrets should not be kept in any marriage. My current wife knows of all my discretions over the years. Some shocked her, some amazed her and some made her mad as hell but she is still here after 15+ years. I know I'm a handful and a bit unpredictable

[PaulaQ]

I've pushed in this thread a little bit - not because I think everyone should just be out in the open. Everyone's situation is different. Nobody is in a position to judge you, or your relationship with you spouse - no one. No one can tell you how she'll react - probably you can't either - but the fact is, you are in the best place to understand this, more than anyone else.

What I do hope you'll consider is trying to be as honest with yourself, and your motives, as you can. I'm of the opinion that hiding something like this from your spouse is dishonest - now there are some reasons why one might do this, and I'll talk about that in a minute, but I would hope you'll at least consider being honest with yourself, and not sugar coating what you are doing. If you can't be honest with others, and sometimes you can't do this - don't feel guilty about this - but don't bullshit yourself about what you are doing either.

Why I think there are some really fundamental differences between what most of us do, and outright deception and dishonesty:

1. Hiding this side of ourselves was a vital self-defense mechanism for many of us. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I certainly lost childhood friends for even hinting about this. My mother went into total freak-out mode when she found my little stash of clothes. I don't know about the rest of you - but I definitely got the memo from society telling me that *I* wasn't welcome, keep my damned pants on!

Telling the truth is surprisingly hard. I've told rooms full of people - to their face, utterly disgusting stories about my abuse of alcohol and cocaine. I've been sober 23 years. I spent a lot of time trying to be honest with myself and others. I did genuinely terrible things while drinking - and I'd have sooner died than admitted that I liked wearing women's clothes. Think about that - admitting cheating on my wife, defrauding people, putting everyone else on the roads at risk with my driving, putting my child at risk because I was too freaking drunk to care for him properly - yeah, I can talk about that. Wearing panties? No freaking way!

Ladies, the shame some of us learn is bad ass.

2. If you aren't hurting someone else, but honesty will let them hurt you - you are under not much obligation to be honest. What actual harm do we cause when we dress? Anyone? Hey, my not drinking doesn't cause any problems either - and if my boss said something like "no way I would hire or trust an ex-drunk", I'd feel absolutely NO OBLIGATION to tell them about my recovery. For CD - this isn't even a contest. I did bad stuff while I was a drunk. Wearing women's clothes isn't even in the same ballpark in terms of harming anyone - it's completely harmless.

Although views about us are improving, fact is, and especially for those of us who are older - the world isn't accepting of us yet. It's getting better, but there are still many individuals who will NEVER accept this. This isn't right, it isn't fair, it doesn't even make any freaking sense - but it is a reality.

Martyring yourself for some abstract principle of honesty is really freaking dumb. If you want to make a stand for our cause - great, you are brave, do that. Getting hurt because it's "the right thing to do" - stupid in my opinion.

3. This isn't nice - but it is the truth. There are some people who are totally willing to overlook certain fairly obvious truths about others, but who will totally shut down if you confront them about something that should be totally obvious. There are people who aren't able or aren't willing to deal with the truth. If you are married to someone like that - and they DO exist - you need to think carefully about telling them. I don't think this is nice. I don't think, in my own opinion and observations, that this is HEALTHY. But it is a reality for some.

4. Many of us went through a quiet period, a period where our CD was dormant. A lot of us told ourselves "OMG! I'm cured! I met the right girl and my desires have just melted away. " So sure, you should'a told her. But you were lying to yourself - you probably thought you'd never have these feelings again. That's what I told myself. And it's easy to put off telling her - because it's embarrassing, and past experience probably tells you that this news will probably NOT be well received.

I'm not saying lying to yourself allows you to justify your deception - it doesn't. But I am saying that you probably did not set out to fool your bride - at least not with malice.

5. A lot of us have had a hard time admitting this about ourselves. I didn't want to admit that I'm a CD and trans. That doesn't justify not being honest - but really, if you are lying to yourself (and I certainly was), how can you be honest with others? You can't.

So it isn't suprising that people who have been taught that they can't trust anybody don't reveal some things about themselves. What I would suggest people do is honestly as you can, examine your motives for who and what you reveal:
- honesty is the best policy
- unless honesty will drastically hurt you, and help no one
I'm suggesting that you look at this as carefully as you can - and try to strip out your fear and anxieties and trust issues (this is hard!) and look at the reality of your situation as best you can.

[Brynna M]

Whether is should be or not crossdressing is a big deal in our society. It can cause a lot of stress to people afraid some on will find out or changing drasitically (S.O.s have the same fears) because that omission can have a huge effect on your S.O's life it is a lie not to tell her. it is expected that big things are discussed in a relationship. Much like it is a lie for one partner to "fail to mention" they are schizophrenic. (on the other hand If those pants do make her butt look big for one day her quality of life will not be drastically diminished.)
For what its worth I've had the same questions in my head about my situation with my fiance. She knows but it is DADT. Because of that I don't think she knows where I am (still closeted but playing with wig makeup) and where I want to go (better presentation, shave body hair maybe go out if I can stop looking like a tank in a dress). I've decided I need to have that talk. easier said than done but i need to find a way to do it.

Good luck to all of us that have some owning up to do.

[ReineD]

But withholding information that may affect how they live their life from now on IS a lie. You take away their choices. You basically tell them you don't trust them or you believe they are so immature you need to guide them. It is a violation of trust. And Trust is a foundation to a healthy relationship.

Exactly. Furthermore, a person who withholds the truth is manipulating the other person. He is saying to himself, "I will control the situation by not telling you something that I'm afraid you will disapprove of. If I tell you the truth, I may not be able to get what I want, or getting what I want may be more difficult. And getting what I want is most important of all so it's just so much easier to not tell you".

[Wildaboutheels]

Relevant?

How many GGs have NEVER "faked one"? Or a few? A few dozen? A few hundred?

Maybe it's simply SOP with their SO... because their SO...................?

If it's not a L I E... then what is it?

[ReineD]

Wilde, GGs who lie about a part of who they are or about something they do regularly, are manipulating their SOs too.

[AllyCDTV]

If I could do that - I wouldn't be on this forum. I've tried to suppress this for 40 years. I simply am unable to do so. I know when I'm beaten. More to the point - I believe now this is a part of me. Indeed, I think it *is* me, at least the parts of my personality that are actually worth much of anything. Anyway, I don't have much energy left to be at war with myself. I give.

Suppose I won the lotto - would it be OK to not tell my wife?
Suppose I got diabetes - would that be OK to not tell my wife?
Suppose I have a financial setback, or lose my job - should I not tell that until we're evicted?
Suppose I am in a position to retire early - no bad consequences at all, but don't want to quit my job - can I neglect to mention that because I want to keep working?

Where exactly do you draw the line?

Well, I'd never suggest that - there are many who will hurt you if they have truthful information about you. There is a need for privacy. However, I would suggest that if you include, in the circle of people who need to be lied to and can't be trusted, your wife, then I'd question your thinking on this.

I would hope no one would blindly follow anyone's advice - to either tell or not tell.

I have made the decision to quit crossdressing. I am under no illusion that it will be easy and I know it will require long-term, constant vigilance and self control. I have no other option. I must stop. I have triumphed over a lot of diversity in my life and have total belief that I can do it.

As you point out in a more recent post on this thread, revealing yourself as a crossdresser is a revelation like no other.

My Pollyanna reference was not directed at you. Yes I have some thoughts beyond crossdressing that my wife would be better off not knowing, like what I'd really like to do to that guy that cut me off. But they are fleeting and never to be acted on so I put a fake smile on my face. The thoughts go away eventually and everybody is safe and happy.

I also would hope that nobody blindly follows advice around here. Still when long-time, very vocal members dogmatically recommend telling the spouse, I'm concerned that a younger and newer member might just go and do it without much thought. Even if coming out is the right decision, it has to be done with some amount of planning and caring about how it will effect the SO. You can't just wake her up one morning to the sight of you in a tutu. People advocating total honesty and coming out to the SO should add some disclaimer to their statements by saying it should be done only after spending adequate time to think things through and directing them to resources to help them do that. There is a lot of power in a statement like that and there needs to be corresponding responsibility.

[Amy Fakley]

If I tell you the truth, I may not be able to get what I want, or getting what I want may be more difficult. And getting what I want is most important of all so it's just so much easier to not tell you".

that is a drastic oversimplification, and it cheapens what many of us here go through. "Getting what I want" is not even remotely a consideration in my decision to stay closeted. There is an intricate web of interdependency that surrounds all of us. From children to elderly parents, to jobs to mortgages and ... you name it. Telling your spouse in many cases, is a roll of the dice. It can go horribly wrong and it can shatter that web of interdependency, and it can hurt many, many people around you that you care about.

My gender issues are not the most important thing in my life, and at this point I'm not willing to risk it having to become the most important thing in the lives of many of the people I love, including my wife.

If this was about "Getting what I want", then I'd have been out years ago, because I literally would not care who got hurt.

This is so .... so much more complicated than it is being presented here.

[ReineD]

And some people may come to want to live full time. ...

This is so .... so much more complicated than it is being presented here.

It's true that in short, online discussions we have a limited number of words to let others know our thoughts. None of us can and should write expository essays about interdependency, codependency, and the differences between the two. And I know that it isn't easy to decide how and when to tell a partner.

Also, there are degrees to the crossdressing. In an earlier post in this thread, I wrote that it is a lie to not disclose something that is a part of who a person is, or that is important for them to do on a regular basis. If a husband puts on a pair of panties a few times per year for sexual reasons, this isn't as deep as a dire need to express femininity to the point of hoping the wife will go away so that he can dress.

You say this is not an important thing in your life, and by this I take it that you mean you are not constantly on the lookout for opportunities to dress. Then it may not have reached the point where you need to tell your wife, if it makes no difference whether you dress or not.

I was speaking earlier about the level of crossdressing that causes a crossdresser distress when he stops.

[Deedee Skyblue]

Is NOT(Telling the Truth) = Lying? I think it may be be more a matter of intent. If you are concealing something because you are afraid of the consequences if you tell, perhaps that is more of a lie than if you are trying not to hurt someone, or it just never dawns on you that the thing you aren't talking about is something that should be shared.

It's interesting what can be considered a lie - there have been many times in my life when I have told the exact truth, with no intent to deceive - and been called a liar.

Deedee

[Helen 2]

I realize this might come across as hair-splitting, but there is a difference, IMHO. I shared Helen's story with my wife before we were married. She saw Helen a few times and did not like it. She read and studied enough to know that it was not something I would be giving up, so she said: you can do it when I'm not around, please dont tell me you have and please dont let me see you en femme'
I dress and go out occassionally when she's traveling -and don't share it with her.
Is that a lie? No. An ommision? Certainly. Has it worked? We have been happily married for 32 years and still truly do love and enjoy each other. What is wrong with that?

[busker]

Situational ethics, or situation ethics, is a Christian ethical theory that was principally developed in the 1960s by the then Episcopal priest Joseph Fletcher. It basically states that sometimes other moral principles can be cast aside in certain situations if love is best served.... the type of love he is specifically referring to is 'αγαπη' love. Agapē is a Greek term meaning love (sometimes translated as unconditional love).
here is one instance to comtemplate:
I dropped in on a patient at the hospital who explained that he only had a set time to live. The doctors could give him some pills (that would cost $40 every three days) that would keep him alive for the next three years, but if he didn't take the pills, he’d be dead within six months. Now he was insured for $100,000, double indemnity and that was all the insurance he had. But if he took the pills and lived past next October when the insurance was up for renewal, they were bound to refuse the renewal, and his insurance would be canceled. So he told me that he was thinking that if he didn't take the pills, then his family would get left with some security, and asked my advice on the situation.
The wiki article is too long to quote so if you are interested in pursuing the 4 principles here is the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_ethics


There are so many here who say that gender is not black and white but a whole rainbow, but all of a sudden it seems to stop when other human attributes come to the fore. Why? Life is not b/w, nothing is exactly. Life is subjective. How can another tell someone to do this or that. eveyone's situation is different.
There are plenty of examples every day: the government doesn't tell us everything and it may or may not hurt us as individuals; the last time it did, we spent ten years at war; a person who is a government agent may not tell his spouse the truth about their job for national security reasons and it will likely jeopardize the relationship in the long run; a general is not going to tell his troops that only 20% will come out alive as it would jeopardize everyone , because every soldier would feel like he was the unlucky one; ; combat veterans who return from war don't tell their families exactly what they had to do to survive the war--their families would not likely get over the gruesomeness of killing by the person they love. There are so many instances where withholding information is better for everyone. How to applies to being a crossdresser is for the individual to decide--the answer is so much more philosophical than just yes or no, a lie or not.

[Jenniferathome]

... (1)So he told me that he was thinking that if he didn't take the pills, then his family would get left with some security, ...
... (2) the government doesn't tell us everything and it may or may not hurt us as individuals; ... (3) a person who is a government agent may not tell his spouse the truth about their job for national security reasons ... (4) a general is not going to tell his troops that only 20% will come out alive as it would jeopardize everyone , ...(5) combat veterans who return from war don't tell their families exactly what they had to do to survive the war--.....

Just one problem, not one of these examples is applicable.
(1) His family KNOWS he's dying.
(2) We knowingly signed up for that by being citizens. We KNOW this might happen.
(3) You've watched too many spy movies. This is a fantasy
(4) Every soldier KNOWS that they are at risk when they signed up.
(5) Every family member KNOWS that soldiers are required to kill. The details of the killing are immaterial.
In all cases, knowledge was available to BOTH parties in the relationship. Hiding one's cross dressing is withholding knowledge that may be material to the other party in the relationship. I'll go back to my original example that does apply: if one cheats on their spouse and does not disclose it, are they lying? Are they withholding that knowledge to "help" their spouse? Of course not. They're a liar.

[Jilmac]

I don't believe there is such a thing as "lying by ommission", if there was then "don't ask, don't tell" would be a license to lye. I told my wife about my dressing while we were still dating and even though she disapproved, she married me anyway. I dressed but stayed hidden all the years we were married, and I carried the guilt with me until she died. My "lying" was in dressing and hiding even though she knew.

[PaulaQ]

In all cases, knowledge was available to BOTH parties in the relationship. Hiding one's cross dressing is withholding knowledge that may be material to the other party in the relationship. I'll go back to my original example that does apply: if one cheats on their spouse and does not disclose it, are they lying? Are they withholding that knowledge to "help" their spouse? Of course not. They're a liar.

A better example of situational ethics would be this:
1. You don't disclose your cross dressing to your future bride.
2. However, your future bride doesn't disclose that she is an out of control, crazy, rage-monster (I had a friend who had a spouse like this), because if you knew she was crazy, would you have married her? (Actually surprisingly the answer is still 'yes' for a lot of guys - but I digress.)
3. You notice, during your somewhat abusive marriage (and you are the victim here), that when things don't go your wife's way, she goes absolutely nuts.
4. You feel, pretty sure, that if you disclose your CD, she'll divorce you, take the kids, and do everything in her power to wreck your life, cost you your job, etc. - even if it makes her life materially worse. There really are people like this.

I'd say under those circumstances, not telling her may be lying by omission, but self-preservation would be an excellent justification for this, to my mind. I don't see why someone would stay married under horrible circumstances like that - but that's not for me to judge, and people do.

[AllyCDTV]

Look. Ally. Here's the deal. I 'advocate' being up front and honest in the dating stage. In the EARLY dating stage. For example. I told my (future) wife after dating two weeks. I DID NOT want to presume or take for granted that all was OK and I could hide myself.

Are you kiddin' me?!?

HIDE myself?

Why would anyone do this? Oh WOW!...because we crave a meaningful relationship? Because we 'feel' we can keep secret who we truly are?

Hhahahaha

No. !I don't think so. The ultimate delusion.

Ally. Sweetie. You want to 'stop' crossdressing? Be my guest.

I'm here to tell you all....ALL OF YOU.... that honesty is the best policy...BUT...fer' cryin' out loud...do it while in the early dating stages. Lookit, if 'she' accepts it. Good. If not? Hey! 'Move along.' NO feelings hurt at this stage...cabeesh?

Totally agree with you Purple regarding the early stages of dating. When you've been married for 20 years and start developing an interest in wearing a bra and a wig, things begin to get a bit more complicated. Pretty soon, at least in my case, your buying dresses and learning how to do makeup, but you justify it to yourself that you aren't hurting anyone, as long as your SO doesn't know, so what's wrong with that? Well that's fine and dandy as long as you're careful and your luck holds out but I know that luck has a funny way of turning and mistakes do happen.

Nope, I don't want to quit crossdressing. The fact is that 27 years ago, my wife didn't sign up for a crossdresser. Whatever pleasure I get from crossdressing will never be worth the pain either of us will go through when my luck runs out or I make that big mistake. I've had a good run and it's been a lot of fun but it's now time to get out of Dodge.

[PaulaQ]

Nope, I don't want to quit crossdressing. The fact is that 27 years ago, my wife didn't sign up for a crossdresser. Whatever pleasure I get from crossdressing will never be worth the pain either of us will go through when my luck runs out or I make that big mistake. I've had a good run and it's been a lot of fun but it's now time to get out of Dodge.

Best of luck.

I'm going to take the opposite tack - unless someone here talks me out of it - and tell my wife. This may cost me everything - there's a good chance of that.

I can't deny that this is a part of me, and without some outlet for my feminity, I feel dead inside. I can't live that way anymore, not all the time. And most of all, I can't stand hiding from the person I love and trust most in the world. It makes me sick.

BTW, I know I argued a lot about honesty but:


justify it to yourself that you aren't hurting anyone

I'd argue that in the grand scheme of things - you really aren't hurting anyone by CD. I guess you do - but what's unfair about this is that the "hurt" comes from people reacting to what you are doing. What you are doing doesn't change much - it's just clothes. But people freak out, so it is a big damned deal.

I can understand a wife leaving a CD because she can't find the CD attractive anymore. This also happens to spouses who pack on some weight. Yes, this is a big change of life - is it that much worse than changing careers, into a job your wife simply can't abide? Maybe you never told her of your lifelong desire to be a pro cyclist, and when you try it, she is upset because of the hardship it creates on the family when you quit your job to pursue your dream. NONE of the latter things I just listed would raise many eyebrows if they caused a divorce - people would just say "that's how it goes."

So let's not go overboard on the guilt trip here. What we do is a big deal to some in society mostly because they freak out. It's not like boozing, womanizing, drugging, gambling - these things have terrible effects on the addict, and generally they bring LOTS of problems home with them for everyone else.

I've done lots of terrible stuff. I've known people who've done worse things than I have. (My Dad was a great example of this.) CD'ing doesn't even rate in comparison. Too bad nobody else feels the same way. :(

In my case - hiding myself from the woman I love feels wrong. I'm going to try to fix that. I may fail - I'll probably fail. But I feel I have to try. I don't feel guilty about any of this.

[Kate T]

Preface: I didn't tell my wife until we had been married for 15 years so please feel free to call me a hypocrite.

I think the most beautiful thing in the world is the unconditional love that one person feels for another person. When this love is returned then a bond so strong can occur that even death cannot break it. To know that love, and know that you are loved completely and wholly, no conditions, your whole being laid bare, I think is the greatest gift anyone can receive or give.

I have been blessed that my wife has given me such love.

Our relationship has been challenged recently by factors other than CD'ing (My mother moved in with us after a car accident, the usual money and work stresses). Our love though is possibly stronger than ever. If I had not told my wife about CD'ing I wonder if our love would still be as strong.

Is not telling Lying? I think so but then I lied for years. What I do fervently and truly believe though is that if you truly and deeply love your partner then you will tell them.

[PaulaQ]

Preface: I didn't tell my wife until we had been married for 15 years so please feel free to call me a hypocrite.


You are not a hypocrite. You had a change of heart, and you sincerely followed through with it. And even better, unlike what many here experience, it paid off. Congratulations on that. Honesty is not always rewarded with love in our lot - that is a sad truth.

[ReineD]

hiding myself from the woman I love feels wrong.

That's it!! Fundamentally, this is it!

The guilt that comes as the result of hiding is like a worm that burrows deep into the psyche, and then multiplies. Crossdressers tell their wives when it becomes unbearable not to.

But, not everyone is in touch with their feelings. Some people are in denial and they don't feel the guilt for what it is, even though it's there. So it comes out sideways as other behaviors like irritability or anger.

The reason for telling is not just for the wife because "she deserves to know the truth". Just as, or more important is for the crossdresser's well-being. We all die a little inside when we violate our own values. And when we don't let others know who we are, this is the biggest lie, the biggest self-violation there is.

This is an excellent book that I highly recommend. It's a short read. Here's a preview:

http://books.google.com/books?id=bQMqlTX5pqgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=john+powell&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Y_ZLUcCHCa2yygG3-IH4Ag&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg

[PaulaQ]

I'll pickup a copy of that book, Reine, thanks.

I'm going to take the same risk I did 20 years ago, when I decided that as scared as I was of being hurt, that I'd pursue my (future) bride. I was afraid to do this - she'd hurt me once. Not intentionally, not cruelly, but it happened. It was not her fault. I'm not easy for women to find attractive, I guess because apparently inside I'm one too. Still, something inside me told me to do it - and it was the best decision I ever made. (I believe Paula told me to do it.)

I'll take that risk again, and finally open up to her about everything. In my defense - and I hope this is enough - I was in no place to deal with this emotionally before, I was in deep denial, and I genuinely did not understand it. (I still don't - but I have a much better idea, and am at least not lying to myself so much.)

But I know that the cruel calculus of our situation is that frequently honesty = rejection. Still, in our marriage I've always encouraged her to expand and grow and be as full of a person as she can be. I hope that gives her some incentive to return the favor. Because as much as I've tried to avoid this - this is really who I am.

[Wildaboutheels]

It certainly looks and seems possible that telling for some people under some circumstances is a win/win situation? From a personal POV. It forces a decision on a SO. As in "accept this about me to some extent" OR "cut me loose" so I don't have to keep feeling guilty? And I can get on with my life.

[Lorileah]

It forces a decision on a SO. NO it gives them the option of continuing on and seeing where the relationship would lead or allowing both of you to explore your lives. When you DON'T tell you are forcing them to accept your life as they think it is and not as it is. You are the one making their decisions for them.
As in "accept this about me to some extent" OR "cut me loose" so I don't have to keep feeling guilty? And I can get on with my life. But it is their decision then not yours.

[ReineD]

Right, Wilde. But sometimes, a crossdresser just can't stand not telling any more, for a number of reasons ... either out of guilt, or the need to dress is escalating and it's hard to keep it hidden.

By the way, I agree that feeling guilt is unpleasant but there's more to it than "being a man and not telling just to feel better". Guilt is actually an emotion that tells us when we've done something wrong. So it's foolish in my opinion to ignore it, because when you think of it, guilt signifies that not only are we violating ourselves or our inner cores somehow, we are violating others.

I've spoken a lot about telling the truth in this thread and in another current thread, but I want to also make clear that in the end it is a personal decision. We all have different tolerances.

[PaulaQ]

It forces a decision on a SO. As in "accept this about me to some extent" OR "cut me loose" so I don't have to keep feeling guilty? And I can get on with my life.

Why does everyone treat this as so black and white? Does the following outcome never occur with CD? Because it is the worst case scenario to me:

"Now that I know this horrible truth about you, well, I will stay - FOR THE CHILDREN! You SOB!" Years of angry recriminations, bitter vitriolic arguments, and general anger and bitterness ensue. The kids grow up completely screwed up. Her friends end up hating her, because she is so negative all the time. (Although they stick around because they blame YOU - you SOB.)

Is that scenario rare in our world? Because it's SUPER COMMON in alcoholic / codependent relationships. I'm just asking.

BTW, I won't tell my wife out of guilt. Screw guilt! I'll tell her because I know her, and hiding a part of myself from her would be, from her POV, the biggest betrayal I could do to her. I'll also tell her because I can't stand having a wall between us. Maybe I'm fooling myself though, and will substitute a wall in my mind for one in hers.

[busker]

Guilt is actually an emotion that tells us when we've done something wrong. .

well, it tells us too that someone else may be making us feel guilty because THEY feel it is wrong. Parents make children feel guilty all the time when they do things that are not within the boundries of what they expect--especially boys wanting to dress like girls.
The guilt trip is well known. Berne in his book Games People Play has a whole series on this. Also there is an interesting TED talk on guilt and shame. well worth looking up.

[busker]

Paula, it is one of the "games" in Eric Berne's book Games People Play from the 1960's or so. It is called, Now I got you, you SOB. It's the psychology equivalent of Norbert Weiner's The Human Use of Human Beings, I think.

[Amy Fakley]

You say this is not an important thing in your life, and by this I take it that you mean you are not constantly on the lookout for opportunities to dress. Then it may not have reached the point where you need to tell your wife, if it makes no difference whether you dress or not.

I was speaking earlier about the level of crossdressing that causes a crossdresser distress when he stops.

Well what I said is that it's not the most important thing in my life. I didn't say it wasn't important, nor that it was primarily sexual (for me it's not, but I get that it is for a lot of us, and that's cool too).

Of course I'm on the lookout for opportunities to dress. That doesn't necessarily mean that it comes at the price of pushing other things out. And yeah, it's difficult sometimes when I'm not able to for really extended periods of time, but no that doesn't mean I pass that through onto the people I love. I'm a little down maybe, but I'm a grown up and I can deal with that without necessarily having to be an a-hole.

Where is this coming from? I mean ... yeah, it's completely possible to be a "well adjusted" closeted crossdresser. Honest!

thread that will not die continues not dying, LOL :-)

[ReineD]

well, it tells us too that someone else may be making us feel guilty because THEY feel it is wrong. Parents make children feel guilty all the time when they do things that are not within the boundries of what they expect--especially boys wanting to dress like girls.
The guilt trip is well known. Berne in his book Games People Play has a whole series on this. Also there is an interesting TED talk on guilt and shame. well worth looking up.

I see your point. In the case of crossdressing, you guys or ladies have grown up being told that it was wrong to have your urges. This type of guilt is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, just as boys generations ago were made to feel it was sinful to masturbate, or even have "impure" thoughts. A lot of this comes from an overly rigid view of the world. I had my own version of this nonsense. I was raised in a rather strict religion myself, and people were narrower with their beliefs in general when we are all little (those of us who are middle aged now).

Anyway, people do grow up. As adults crossdressers come to accept themselves. They become mature enough to know the difference from right and wrong, and they are able to shed an overly rigid and capricious view of the world in favor of an accepting one. A child's lessons in ethics hold true all through adult life when it is a question of harm to another person (stealing for example), but the crossdressing in itself harms no one and so if guilt was used as a tactic, it was FALSE guilt.

The old parental and church guilt, however, is quite a different form of guilt than a person who violates his own ethics, his own sense of right and wrong and honesty and integrity. Two completely different things.

But, I'm done in this thread. If people are not ready to tell their wives, they're just not ready. I can wax poetic about ethics, values, honoring the self, yadda, yadda, yadda, but if someone just doesn't want to hear it, I'm wasting my breath. LOL

I wish everyone the best of luck in however this all plays out in your lives! :hugs:

[erica1978]

I don't believe there is such a thing as "lying by ommission", if there was then "don't ask, don't tell" would be a license to lye. I told my wife about my dressing while we were still dating and even though she disapproved, she married me anyway. I dressed but stayed hidden all the years we were married, and I carried the guilt with me until she died. My "lying" was in dressing and hiding even though she knew.

THat is called a good and truly understanding wife.

[erica1978]

I agree with what you say about thinking things thru and the disclaimer.

[MissTee]

I read threads like this and think, "can't we all just go shoe shopping?"

Deep stuff indeed. Not telling is deceit, not a lie. Semantics, I know. Doesn't make it any less a crime against someone you love. That said, not everyone is a criminal for not telling. Many of us are compelled to dress and we don't know why. We just know we must. We care deeply about the ones we love, and never want to intentionally harm. Yet, there are many who think they would "hurt" their SO if they told, and because they love them so much, simply spare them the pain. Which then becomes deceiving in order to spare pain. Such a wicked circle of confusion.

I love my wife and she knows all about Misty. I count my blessings every day, and hope all those otherwise conflicted can manage to find peace in their lives despite this tell or not tell dilemma.

[Taylor Ray]

SO: "What did you do when I was away this weekend?"

Me: "Oh, not much, just hung out." (In fact, I had gone shopping for some women's clothes, dressed up at night)

[Christine.Lolita]

Before I asked my wife to marry me I told her I was a cross dresser. She lost it and started sobbing. This then freaked me out so it was a very uncomfortable moment, a moment I dreaded, but I knew was necessary.
I had to tell her who I was because I felt that she needed to know exactly who she was with and I did not want to start my marriage with a lie.
The next day I proposed to her and she was so happy she was sobbing for joy. We have been marriage for eight years and it has only been in the last few months that my wife is really coming to terms with the fact I am a cross dresser.
Not telling or telling is a choice we all make, but the longer it is a secret the greater the potential damage once the secret is revealed. The underlying reason for the damage is that the SO feels that they have been deceived and lied too. IMHO

[Lady Panda]

Ok IMO lies that do not affect another person ...in any way .....example white lie ....like does this look bad on me ...etc...are ok .

BUT when a lie is about WHO you intrinsically you are or affects the quality of another persons life is a LIE no matter how one looks at it.


How would a CDer like is say perhaps they married a woman and she said from the beginnign "I can't have children"...ok w you....but later you discovered that the woman you married was in fact once a MAN ...lie of omission or for what they think is protecting you ...wouldn't you think it was a Lie????? wouldn't you feel betrayed ???
or if you found out that once your woman was a prostitute before you were involved ...she didn't tell you because it was no longer true ...or she was protecting you ...she was in denial,....lie of omission or your definition of privacy...still a lie and you would feel betrayed.

or you woman spent a lot of money (family money ...her paycheck ) on things she didn't show you or tell you ...wouldn't you feel like she lied to you ??? feel betrayed???? I think so.


or she was squirriling away money and didn't tell you???

The most important gift you can give someone is your trust and the truth...give them a choice on what is on your plate so they can decide if they can handle it or not. It's only fair.

Privacy is ok as long as it doesn't hurt or affect anothers life.

Better to tell and have her say ...ok I am good with this or ok ...CD and its gonna have to be DADT. at least she know what she is dealing with. You can't take away anyones choices by making executive decisions that affect their life or happiness.

[NicoleScott]

or you woman spent a lot of money (family money ...her paycheck ) on things she didn't show you or tell you ...wouldn't you feel like she lied to you ??? feel betrayed???? I think so.

or she was squirriling away money and didn't tell you???


I saw my dad cry twice - both times when he told the story of his parents about to lose their home because they didn't have the money to make a house payment (during the depression). My grandmother removed from a kitchen cannister money she had been squirreling away. It's hard to call someone a liar, deceiver, or betrayer when she just saved the family home.

[Lorileah]

It's hard to call someone a liar, deceiver, or betrayer when she just saved the family home.

OTOH, if she had not squirreled it away as you said, maybe the money would have gone to the mortgage to start and they would not have been in that situation????

Also, to me this was really no different than having savings. Yes she didn't tell Grandpa about it but did she not tell because grandpa would have bought beer? Or was she hiding it to buy herself something (behind his back)?

Context is important. Apples and oranges. If Grandma was keeping the money to do something behind grandpa's back then it would be close to being pertinent here. I see it as saving for a rainy day where she was looking out for the greater good.

[Sabrina133]

"Truth" is subjective and overrated. Is everybody supposed to tell everyone about everything? Give me a break. If women knew half of what goes on in men's minds they'd have nothing to do with us and it would be the end of the human race. Similarly if politicians were held to the same standard some of us are trying to hold each other to, we would have anarchy as our form of government. The real world is not black and white. All the pollyannas out there that think the world would be a better place if nobody lied need to grow up.

The thought that honesty is the best policy in all cases is one of the biggest farces I have seen on this forum. It is a good policy but it is not the best in all cases. It bothers me to think that someone may blindly follow this advice to come out as a crossdresser to their SO just because it worked out in a small handful of instances. It appears that, based on the stories I have seen on this forum coming out rarely works out for the best. And to use the excuse that it would always be better coming from the crossdresser rather than the SO finding out on their own is wishful thinking. Either way it's gonna be a bad situation in most cases and it will be very difficult to make any good come out of it.

As to whether omission is lying, perhaps the better question is: To what end does disclosure serve? Will it increase overall suffering of all involved or decrease it? Or is there a different path such as ending the marriage or quitting crossdressing which would be better?

I have to agree with Ally, What end will it serve to do so? Will it better the situation or make it worse. As an attorney, i am faced with that situation almost everyday. If I have a client and i know a fact that may result in his conviction, am i obligated to reveal that fact to the prosecution? Of course not. Have I lied by not revealing that fact, No am not. Is that a lie. No its not.

In my first LTR, Id didnt tell my SO that i CDed. The fact that we broke up had nothing with being a CD. Had i told her, i would have run the very real riskl that she would go to my chain of command and reveal my secret. The result would have been dismissal from the service. Had we gotten married, then i might have considered telling her but again, given what i knew about her, i probably would not have. In my current relationship, we met when i was dressed so thankfully, that situation has been avoided.

[NicoleScott]

OTOH, if she had not squirreled it away as you said, maybe the money would have gone to the mortgage to start and they would not have been in that situation????

Also, to me this was really no different than having savings. Yes she didn't tell Grandpa about it but did she not tell because grandpa would have bought beer? Or was she hiding it to buy herself something (behind his back)?

Context is important. Apples and oranges. If Grandma was keeping the money to do something behind grandpa's back then it would be close to being pertinent here. I see it as saving for a rainy day where she was looking out for the greater good.

No, Lorileah. I left out the details which didn't seem relevant. But here it is:
The income that paid the mortgage was lost. The money that she saved was small amounts over time that she saved from grocery money or pocket money for herself. Granddad didn't drink beer. She didn't buy things for herself behind his back. Squirreling away or saving for a rainy day - what's the difference?
Yes, she was saving money behind hiis back, but as you suggested, for the greater good.
Sometimes, not telling you crossdress is for the greater good. But I wouldn't expect people who are out to believe that.

[bridget thronton]

For me i felt guilty until i was able to share my need to dress with my wife which happened many years ago (cuz we do talk all night still even after 38 years and she knows that I always have her back)

[Lady Panda]

I saw my dad cry twice - both times when he told the story of his parents about to lose their home because they didn't have the money to make a house payment (during the depression). My grandmother removed from a kitchen cannister money she had been squirreling away. It's hard to call someone a liar, deceiver, or betrayer when she just saved the family home.

This is completely differnt of what I was referring to ...saving little bits of money for rainy day is different ...I was referring to people who save thousands of dollars so that it for THEIR own purpouses ... like my EX squirreled away over 100K lied about how much his paycheck was and when we divorced he walked away scott free with it all ...( I found out later it was all cash and untraceable...I supported us for the 1st 10 years we were together). That is what I was talking about that type of deception.

[Lorileah]

Different perspective. The big news this week was Jason Collins. He explained that like many gay people he tried to live a different life and hide his true feelings. That is all good, we get that. It is the same as hiding your crossdressing to keep a job, your standing in the community, your church. Now here is the key. He dated women (OK that is what the gay community calls a "beard") but he was engaged to a woman for 8 years. He broke up with her because he was gay and knew that he could not be what she thought he was. (So far we can stay with the analogy right? Preaching to the choir).

Piers Morgan had the ex-fiance on his show. They broke up 3 years ago and Piers asked if she thought Jason owed her an apology. Stop and think now. She gave him 8 years of her life and as she put it
"I did invest eight years in our relationship with a shared dream and vision with him and I value that.” She had dreams. She had visions. During this time she believed that what they had was real. It was real to her. Children, a house all the things that everyday people want. It wasn't real to him. He knew his secret and I have to give him credit for not marrying her and living a lie for both of them, but she lost 8 years. She didn't look for another partner in that time. She didn't have children in that time. She gave her focus to him. 8 years.

Here the consequences may not be that extreme but look at it from the SO's point of view. They have dreams. They have visions. Those visions and dreams may not grow bigger but they do grow stronger. By withholding this piece of information, you in essence are undermining that dream. You are not giving the SO a chance to decide. Maybe this woman would have been perfectly happy being married to a gay man. Love is interesting. Look up Van Johnson and his wife...he was gay, she didn't like men and sexual intercourse...they loved each other...perfect match. But she had that information BEFORE they were married.

Maybe because I have been in relationships where suddenly things were not as I suspected I can see this. The CDs here who hold that information from the spouse don't see how devastating this can be. I see it as two things. I see it as a lack of trust in your partner. You assume YOU know how things should be and they are not allowed to participate. I also see it as being selfish. You value YOUR comfort over your SOs.

This woman gave up 8 years of her life. She says that she is still young, can have children, get married. In that she is lucky. But think about the SO who invests 15-20-30 years. Is that fair to them?

The SOs here will get what this about. The CDs will cling to their stance no matter what. 8 years... 8 years out of this woman's life....meh, it wasn't your life

[DanielleLee]

There will always be different trains of thoughts / opinions on this subject. It only matters what YOU and YOUR spouse feel or define as "lying". The opinions expressed here by any cross dresser or GG do not matter in you and your wife's relationship.

I believe that "lying" is not telling the truth in response to a question asked. Omitting or not sharing the things we find shameful, feel remorse over, or feel guilty about... that's human nature. The flipside of that... is there are consequences for failure to disclose these things when they are discovered. That's just my opinion. Again, the only opinions that matter in this situation are you and your spouse's.

Best of Luck to you.

Also... I agree with what Lorileah said above. While I don't agree a lie has been told... I do believe it's a ethical or moral failure to not disclose this thing about ourselves. A potential spouse has the right to decide what's best for them and their future.

[Lady Panda]

Thank you Lorileah for understanding some of the point I was trying to get across and what the SOs of CDs are tryign to get them to understand!!!! Kudos for you!!!!

While it is for the individuals in a relationship to decide and deal with the issues in their relationships it is nice when everyone concerned to have all the info to make an informed decision what they want .

I can relate and understand some of the things CDs deal with and am very sympathetic to the inner struggles they go thru...I am a hairdresser and I have several friends and aquaintances the have had struggles with coming out ....being BGL....My own Grandfather was a CDer (especially in the 1940's) ...found out from my Gramma when I was adult ...

I support all you fine people.

[NicoleScott]

As an attorney, i am faced with that situation almost everyday. If I have a client and i know a fact that may result in his conviction, am i obligated to reveal that fact to the prosecution? Of course not.

Sabrina, this surprises me. I thought there were discovery rules. I'm not a lawyer. But it makes gag when I hear a lawyer in front of a camera talking about truth and justice for the client. It's really about winning and losing, isn't it?

Well, some people will argue that any non-disclosure is a lie, while others say it depends on the situation, context, severity, etc. This won't be resolved here.

[Sabrina133]

Discovery applies to the prosecution not the defense. If i find a fact that would clearly exonorate my client then i'd inform the prosecution. As a defendant, an accused is protected from self incrimination through the 5th Amendment. As his advocate, that privilege extends to me as well. As long as i don't knowingly cause the defendant to commit a crime e.g purjery on the stand, than am ok.

Don't forget, i said "Could" not "will" lead to his conviction. Because its the prosecution's job to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt, my job is to create that doubt. I cant lie and certainly cant ask my client to lie but i can muddy the waters. The only time i have a requirement to tell the authorities anything is if i know a crime is about to be committed. I don't have to tell them how i know the information merely that i have a reason to believe that crime will be committed.

[Wildaboutheels]

I believe the trouble most seem to have with this question is quite telling to say the least. It's no wonder that so many men [and women] have so much trouble sleeping if the answers here are in any way indicitive of "normal" men and GGs with "normal" male SOs.

It's clearly obvious that males or females that feel GUILTY about ANYthing they don't share with a partner need to tell them.

Don't they? Does ANYthing MEAN EVERYthing?

Or are some of you going to declare that it is OK to lie or omit certain things?

The REALITY is that telling one's partner EVERYthing is not happening anytime soon and this "so just what else have you been lying about" mind set/attitude is counter productive to a lasting RELATIONSHIP.

[Oilpainter35]

The entire situation and responses show exactly how HUGE the denial and the firmness some secure and tie their stories to. Is it lying ? Yes. Is it denial ? Yes. Is it fear? Yes. Is it honorable to say no with a mouthful of yes in your cheeks? No. Is it wrong? No. You hang on to what form of sanity that you can live with, until you get to a place in your life that you feel comfortable with, the possibilities, or found out and have no recourse. We only speak when we reach a mountain top. We all climb at our own pace and own path. One cannot point or accuse others of taking the wrong path, because all the paths lead to the same mountain top. The final thing to me is, most are raised not to be foolish and to be sociably accepted, and these run us in the path of looking foolish to most of the socailly acceptable. Catch 22. A good enough reason to hold on to the denial? Well that depends on ones path and we all have different ones.

[sometimes_miss]

I have read quite a few posts now about telling your SO.
Every situation is different and within those situations are many CDers that chose not to tell there SOs that they like to wear women's clothes. My question is how many members of this forum believe that not telling the wife is the same as lying to them. My wife and I have been married for 17 years and I only told her 3 months ago. I don't believe that I was lying to her all these years. I mean I had a hard enough time admitting to myself that I liked to present as a woman let alone tell my wife about it. I firmly believe that secrets are not free and they inevitably end up costing somebody more than they were willing to pay, but is it telling the one you love lies, when it could end up costing you both so much?
Our marriage therapist referred to it as a 'lie by omission'; some other women have simply called it the ultimate in deceit, and my ex just sad I was lying about who I was by pretending that I was normal. However you put it, women feel sexual attraction to the male stereotype, and they create an image of who you are based on what they know about you, and that's what they fall in love with. When that masculine image is shattered by the image of you in a dress, it can easily destroy any sexual desire for you, and when you're already married, it's easy for her to be enraged at the thought of being stuck with someone she feels has misrepresented himself to such an extent. It's difficult for us to understand because there's really no comparable thing that a woman can do to us in such a suddenly disturbing way, unless maybe if she was a post op transsexual who married us without telling us, and we didn't find out until we had to go to a fertility specialist to find out why she couldn't get pregnant; and for a guy who gets married especially to have his own children to start a family, and who's religious and doesn't believe in divorce, perhaps that type of situation would be akin to what a woman feels when she comes home and finds one of us in heels and make up wearing a dress.

I believe I was lying by omission, which makes it still a lie.
The problem with this concept is that no one tells their partner everything they've done and felt for their whole life; it's simply impossible. We leave out details of that which we think is unimportant. In my case, I hadn't crossdressed for the years that my wife and I had been dating, and I really believed it was someething I had left in the past. And my wife didn't tell me about her mental health issues either, also believing that was something she wouldn't have to deal with. Were we lying? I don't think so; we were both stable, good people and we were doing very well in life at that point,and had no idea that the future would have some really bad times a'coming. As we divorced, I was able to find it in myself to forgive her behavior; she wasn't able to do the same. That's all there is to it; she could never feel attracted to me, and never be able to see me as 'a real man' again, so we had to end the marriage.
But technically 'lying'? No. I feel that there has to be intent to deceive for that to be the case, and neither of us had that intention when simply not bringing up subjects that we clearly did not think would ever again have any importance.

Edit; Now that I know of what can happen, and that inevitably I will never be able to completely stop crossdressing, were I to get married again and not tell her, then THAT would be a lie of omission, because I know now of the importance this information has. And that's the difference. Same situation, different knowledge about the subjects at hand.