denied

[arbon]

Went to the DMV today and tried to update the gender marker on my drivers license - Denied.

[Laurie Ann]

Sorry to hear the doc you presented was not sufficient.

[Rianna Humble]

Oh my, Arbon, a double whammy! :sad:

I just wish there was something I could say or do to make a difference. Until then, I guess it'll just have to be this :bighug:

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sorry that this happened to you..

i hope you get a turn around soon from todays bad luck

[DaniG]

That's horrible! I hope you're able to correct it.

May I ask which state we're talking about?

Along the same vein, I'd read about a trans woman who had challenged the hetero-only marriage laws in her state (a southern state, I think), so that she could stay married to her wife. Instead of granting the request, the state denied transsexual status outright, and her legal status as female was revoked, along with all others in that state perhaps. Take this with a grain of salt. I can't remember where I read it. Can anyone corroborate?

[mikiSJ]

Arbon

I know how difficult it is to maneuver bureaucracies (for non-gender reasons).


First of all, does the law support changing your gender on the D/L without an actual physical reassignment. (If not, you are likely out of luck!)
Second, if the law allows, who is given the responsibility for administering the change (I am guessing the DMV) and what is the timing allowed for enacting the regulations. (If the law is silent as to the timing of the regulations, you are once again likely out of luck if the DMV is reluctant to make the regulation conform to the law.
Third, if the first and second comments work in your favor, offer to be a named party in an ACLU action.
I have found that when you KNOW you are right, and can show WHY you are right, then the bureaucracy will start to move. You need to make it uncomfortable for the bureaucracy to remain complacent.

Good luck!!

[StephanieC]

I'm sorry to hear on both counts.

[Michelle.M]

Along the same vein, I'd read about a trans woman who had challenged the hetero-only marriage laws in her state (a southern state, I think), so that she could stay married to her wife.

I don't understand why she'd have to petition to STAY married. If the marriage was legal to begin with then how could it suddenly be illegal if the same two people were involved?

And how, exactly, could they revoke her status as a female?

[Marleena]

Sorry to hear this Arbon. Hopefully you can get the D/L paperwork in order to satisfy them. I hope things change for the better for you.

[DaniG]

I don't understand why she'd have to petition to STAY married. If the marriage was legal to begin with then how could it suddenly be illegal if the same two people were involved?

And how, exactly, could they revoke her status as a female?

I hear what you're saying, and it makes sense to me.

However, that's not how it works, apparently. In this case, once the transition was final, the two women violated a state law banning same sex marriage. There was no loophole for grandfathered marriages. Their marriage was suddenly illegal.

As to the second question, the ability to transition legally is defined by state law. That law can be amended, changed or revoked. That's what happened in this case. The judge decided to reverse the entire ability to transition. Transsexuals there could no longer live as their chosen gender on paper. This was a kind of doomsday legal scenario.

Some have proposed using transsexual marriages to challenge anti-same sex marriage law, since they're commonly decades established and come from heterosexual marriages. They're more of a gray area. This paper was written to highlight just how dangerous that approach can be. In this case, the plaintif was aware of the danger, but chose to proceed, believing that the judge would never be horrible enough to push the big, red button. He did.

I assume (hopefully) that in time this injustice was corrected. Again, I wish I had the link or knew the state.

[arbon]

I wish you had the state or link to. There are only 2 or 3 states that don't allow you to change the gender on your birth certificate - Idaho and ohio I know for sure - but all states have some process of allowing you to change you gender on you ID. There have been a lot of challenges to marriage of transsexuals but usually were marriages that came after transition, I have not heard of one like what you are describing.

[Nicole Erin]

So with whatever states -
Who is a MTF TS "allowed" to marry?

[DaniG]

I wish you had the state or link to.

This is not the legal paper I read, but describes the case more succintly. The whole article is good reading for any married TG/TS, but for the pertient story, scroll down to "Two contrasting cases".

Transgender People and Marriage: The Importance of Legal Planning
http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/transgender-people-and-marriage-the-importance-of-legal-planning


So with whatever states -
Who is a MTF TS "allowed" to marry?

Depends entirely on the state. In WA, NH, IA, NY, MD, MA, MN, VT & CT you can marry anyone! Yeah! Other than that, YMMV.

I have not decided to transition, but I live in OR where same sex marriage is not yet legal, and the word is that the LGBT community doesn't plan to challenge this until 2014. I'll be keep an eye on it, you can bet.

[Michelle James]

Arbon your story sounds just like what has happened here in Michigan. We got a new secretary of state (who directs our DMV) and under this new regime it has gotten a lot harder for us to change gender. No laws were changed as far as I can tell it just this despot seems to have issues with trans people. I went in to see what was required only to be informed that the rules have changed and now the letter must state that you have completed SRS. If I remember correctly there also was a requirement that your birth certificate must also have been changed. If anyone has better info on Michigan please post it.

[Badtranny]

Shouldn't you at least have to have SOME surgery before they allow a gender marker change?

The feds and CA are very liberal on this but even they at least require "appropriate clinical treatment".

It seems to me that not requiring ANY irreversible commitment could be very bad for the TS community in the long term.

[Chickhe]

How many DMV offices are there? ...can't you try and try again until you get a sympathetic clerk...one that's stuck in 2009? ...as you get more experience asking you will know what buttons to tell them to push.

[Aprilrain]

Shouldn't you at least have to have SOME surgery before they allow a gender marker change?

The feds and CA are very liberal on this but even they at least require "appropriate clinical treatment".

It seems to me that not requiring ANY irreversible commitment could be very bad for the TS community in the long term.

I definitely see your point Melissa. That being said, im glad all that was required of me was a letter from my therapist. I believe I had shown my commitment and determination to my therapist though and was on hormones.

Arbon this sucks im sorry to hear that your having troubles with this. If its any consolation I live in Ohio and can't change my BC:straightface:

[arbon]

Shouldn't you at least have to have SOME surgery before they allow a gender marker change?

The feds and CA are very liberal on this but even they at least require "appropriate clinical treatment".

It seems to me that not requiring ANY irreversible commitment could be very bad for the TS community in the long term.

I guess I don't really understand why it should be required. There are a lot more states than just CA that allow it, even a lot of conservative states and there has not been many, if any problems with it, at least that I am aware of. Its been going on for quite a while and I don't see evidence of how it has been bad for the TS community really. There are whacko's regardless, some of them get in the news, some have gone all the way and some not, consider the thread April started. Should some people be penalized because of some wierdos that might give us a bad name? As far as appropriate clinical treatment - I have done therapy, have a doctor, been on hrt for 2 1/2 years, identify as and live full time as a woman - and I'm going to keep using the ladies room regardless. Being able too change my gender marker makes my life a bit easier and does not hurt or take away from anyone else.

And what really would requiring some surgery mean? Trachea shave, breasts, FFS, orchi? Full SRS, which in itself is really several different procedures and its done differently by different doctors. Maybe people need to pass a panel of people people to judge if they are passable enough - I'm just throwing out questions.

[Michelle.M]

Shouldn't you at least have to have SOME surgery before they allow a gender marker change?

The feds and CA are very liberal on this but even they at least require "appropriate clinical treatment".

Nope. "Appropriate clinical treatment" can mean HRT, and that's what the US Department of State will accept to change name and gender on a passport.

[donnalee]

I agree that you are certainly in the right both morally and legally, but unless you have exhausted all other possibilities and have absolutely nothing to lose, I do not recommend approaching things this way. By far the best approach is to try to slide in under the radar as much as possible. Go to a different DMV office ( maybe Boisie or near if you don't live close). Try to avoid men and any women (particularly older women) wearIng crosses; unfortunately many people go to work for government agency to promote their own very hateful agendas.
For an example, when I retired, I was told by my health insurance that my SO must re-enroll in Medicare. I had removed her because it was causing confusion at medical providers and screwing up the billing and coverage for her, as well as costing her extra money she didn't need to spend. According to the information I had received, all that was neccesary was to show those at the social security office that she had equal or better coverage in the period not covered by Medicare and she could restart at no penalty. Instead I was met by a woman with a large cross necklace who seemed to not be willing to follow her rules, but also not to even bother to check if she was correct or not. I went to consult with an ombudsman who told me I was correct and to make another attempt. The second time I was successful and things went smoothly.

[Nicole Erin]

Shouldn't you at least have to have SOME surgery before they allow a gender marker change?
The feds and CA are very liberal on this but even they at least require "appropriate clinical treatment".
It seems to me that not requiring ANY irreversible commitment could be very bad for the TS community in the long term.

Probably not bad for the TS community. Remember that CIS people see us ALL as dudes no matter how pretty or how many surgeries. Plus when you get to a point of people either accepting or not, that whole "gender marker" doesn't matter. I have never wanted to be friends with someone who needed to see my ID.

[Saffron]

Shouldn't you at least have to have SOME surgery before they allow a gender marker change?

The feds and CA are very liberal on this but even they at least require "appropriate clinical treatment".

It seems to me that not requiring ANY irreversible commitment could be very bad for the TS community in the long term.

I suppose you're saying this cause you fear that a bunch of delusional people could start changing markers back and forth and the society blaming the TS community any problems they create.

But... I think the benefits would outweigh the risks.

[celeste26]

One possible strategy would be to move to another state which has a more relaxed standard, go through the process to get a D/L in that state, and then move back. Of course I might also ask why not just stay in that other state? This from a person who has lived in 5 states so far.

[Deborah_UK]

In the UK you can get the gender marker changed on both passport and driving licence and the UK Passport Agency states that to apply for a passport you require either a Gender Recognition Certificate or a report from a medical practitioner (such as your GP), or a chartered psychologist practicing in the field of gender dysphoria, stating that you have a need to live your life in a different gender and evidence of the name you use in your new gender such as a deed poll.


Badtranny
Shouldn't you at least have to have SOME surgery before they allow a gender marker change?


The first thing I did on commencing my RLE was to obtain a new passport with the gender marker as "F", (which allowed me to get a new driving licence) having to wait almost three years for SOME surgery in order to get the F marker would have led to problems travelling with a passport with the M marker.

So I think to restrict changing gender markers to those who have had SOME surgery would be a further cruel imposition on an already potential stressful process and it would appear to this foreigner's eyes that some states do make the process cruel indeed.

[Kathryn Martin]

It seems to me that not requiring ANY irreversible commitment could be very bad for the TS community in the long term.

This happens when vocal political correctness arguments override common sense. I agree with you that passports and birth certificates should not be permitted to be changed until an irreversible commitment has been demonstrated.

[arbon]

This happens when vocal political correctness arguments override common sense. I agree with you that passports and birth certificates should not be permitted to be changed until an irreversible commitment has been demonstrated.

Why? Can you point to where this has led to problems? Almost everything is revsersable - there are ts women who have gone the whole nine yards and then gone back to living as men. Even with surgeries it was not an irreversible commitment to them.

And you don't mention drivers licenses, do you have a different opinion on that?


One possible strategy would be to move to another state which has a more relaxed standard, go through the process to get a D/L in that state, and then move back. Of course I might also ask why not just stay in that other state? This from a person who has lived in 5 states so far.

Yeah, I've thought about that, moving in with my mother in law in washington. Who knows I might. But really I like Idaho, I've lived here all but 4 years of my life (that I spent in portland or), its what I know.

[Badtranny]

Why?

I don't have an answer Arbon, and I'm sympathetic to your situation but doesn't seem like their should be SOME kind of hurdle in order to achieve legal status?

You know I've been full time for over a year now and I still hear the comments from dudes about putting on a wig so they can go to the women's restrooms. As if my whole life and all of my procedures have been reduced to "putting on a wig".

How can we argue that this is a medical condition and beyond our control, and then resist a requirement for clinical 'proof' before making legal changes that ripple across all of society?

There should be some kind of criteria that is recognized by every state. Maybe just verified HRT for two years? Maybe a doctors sworn affidavit that you are in need of a gender transition? I don't know, but I think there needs to be some understanding that SOMETHING must be done.

[Saffron]

I think a letter from your doctor stating that you were diagnosed with gender dysphoria should be enough.

Using that example, imagine TS men using women's restrooms since they cannot use mens...

Or don't imagine. in Spain you need to be on verified HRT for two years to change your sex legally. I've been living full time 3 months now, still waiting for HRT to be approved (doesn't matter my psychologist has already evaluated and diagnosed me, that's how things works here, s l o w). So I'll have to wait 2 years and 6 months until I can use a public restroom and meanwhile use men's? really?

[kellycan27]

" I ve got mine"... "Been there, done that"... " jumped through the hoops".... If someone can get their gender maker changed by merely saying that they TS/TG...... More power to them, I don't care! It's of no consequence to me.

[Rianna Humble]

I don't have an answer Arbon, and I'm sympathetic to your situation but doesn't seem like their should be SOME kind of hurdle in order to achieve legal status?
...

There should be some kind of criteria that is recognized by every state. Maybe just verified HRT for two years? Maybe a doctors sworn affidavit that you are in need of a gender transition? I don't know, but I think there needs to be some understanding that SOMETHING must be done.

Unfortunately, there are different criteria in different parts of the world. I am happy, though, to see you soften your stance a little. If surgery were to be the acid test for who can be recognised, where would that leave people like me who have been denied surgery on medical grounds?

Fortunately, there are a whole set of criteria in my country with which I am able to comply, including having been diagnosed by two different clinical psychologists who specialise in gender issues, having lived for a legally specified amount of time in my true gender before my gender will be officially recognised.

Curiously, although we don't have anything as simple as M or F on our drivers' license, there is a hidden code in my license number that would identify me as female.

So although the scare-mongers are wrong about men just needing to put on a wig to be able to attack women in the toilets, I will have the right to be legally recognised based on criteria that are as objective as they could be made by our legislators and not based on some arbitrary test of whether I can obtain surgery by means licit or illicit.

[Kathryn Martin]

And you don't mention drivers licenses, do you have a different opinion on that?

I think drivers licenses should be provided on presentation of a letter from your doctor that meets certain threshold requirements.


I will have the right to be legally recognized based on criteria that are as objective as they could be made by our legislators and not based on some arbitrary test of whether I can obtain surgery by means licit or illicit.

I agree with you. Health related barriers should be addressed in any legislation. The issue in my view is more related to diagnosis and commitment. That would provide an objective basis.

[Debglam]

Why should there be a gender marker on a driver's license anyway? Same license requirements regardless of gender. The photo provides adequate identification. IMHO the fewer documents that have these unnecessary gender markers, the better for all of us.

[Saffron]

Unfortunately in our current society there's still a strong differentiation between sexes. That's why it's still used as a form of identification on all documents. But even without that there are countries that don't let you use what could be consider a female name until you have the correct gender marker.

[girlyj]

Why should there be a gender marker on a driver's license anyway? Same license requirements regardless of gender. The photo provides adequate identification. IMHO the fewer documents that have these unnecessary gender markers, the better for all of us.

I could not agree with you more, Deb. Absolutely unnecessary marker on almost everything.

[Angela Campbell]

Without the gender marker how would they know if you were in the right restroom? Isn't that important?

[StephanieC]

Every time I go in to my doc appt, he reminds me he is willing to do the paperwork about the gender markers on the license. And the office asks if I've legally changed my name. So I figured when I make that decision, someone knows what needs to be done.

-stephani

[Jennifer Marie P.]

See what happen maybe your doctor gave the wrong form.

[Cheyenne Skye]

I saw an episode of Taboo on Nat Geo a while back about transsexuals and they made mention of a person in Australia (I think) who had the gender marker changed to X instead of the traditional M/F.

[Rianna Humble]

There are a few countries which seem to be moving towards this, but I must wonder how many cis people are likely to take advantage of the option for their passport to show an unspecified gender. Otherwise, people will be left for 10 years with an identity document that screams TRANNY!!

[arbon]

I don't think I would be to happy with X for my gender. Anyway I do have a new passport coming so at least if I go out of the country I can be a legal woman.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

good point arbon..

i was recently on a panel with a transman and a gender queer person... we all talked and the GQ person was very eloquent about his/her androgyny and unwillingness to "pick" a gender... she/he found it unneccessary..and i blurted out..."yeah maybe for you!!"..

people laughed and after she finished i said i cared alot about my gender..that gender matters and its a different problem GQ people have than ts people.....i cared about my gender marker and i still do..i don't think of it anymore except in context of trans issues/discussions, but X would not do it for me..

i get if we lived in a genderless society, it might not occur to me. is that marker really neccessary??? I can understand that arguement..but I don't see how that will ever happen..men and women are different..and will always find ways to differentiate themselves in culture, society and day to day life..

[CharleneT]

I do not want to live in a genderless society, I *do* want to live in one that recognizes a wider range though ;) Thailand for example :)