Transitioning

[Kathryn Martin]

Is someone who is past – long past – their one year qualifying RLE and otherwise capable of SRS… transitioned?

A good friend of mine recently asked this question on another thread on this forum.

I am writing this from my perspective of someone who has completed laying her foundation for transition. I live my life still working on hair removal (all white so electrolysis is the only option), two years socially and professionally female, sex reassignment surgery ten months ago and fully integrated.

I believed for a long time that transition is the laying of a physical foundation. That physical changes I have accomplished constituted transition. I could not have been further from the truth. I have come to realize that transition begins after our physical foundation is laid.

It is at that time that the work begins to shed all of the trappings of a male upbringing. The security, privilege, higher earning power that we become entitled to being brought up as boys must be dispensed with and laid to rest. A realization that you no longer can be entitled to insist on a point of view when men assert that they are right but fall silent and keep your own counsel. This is a two fold issue: continuing your privileged life (such as telling women who is a woman and who is not) will differentiate you in a noticeable manner, and how can you embrace your self when you continue to take fake benefits of someone you never were.

Socialization is a powerful thing and it gets ingrained in ways we become not often truly conscious of. Combine that with a common argument that “why would I reject benefits I can partake in” and you have a powerful motivator not to transition in the sense mentioned here. Embracing your self requires all of this to fall away. If you are a woman, how can you not live your life truly as one.

My answer to my friends question is: show me that you have transitioned, telling does not cut it! Show me you are the woman, your say so is not enough!

[Dawn cd]

Thank you for these observations, Kathryn. I'm sure the process of socialization is a crucial part of transitioning and that it is not given enough weight by many people considering the process. However, I question two aspects of your OP. I suspect that a great deal of socialization happens before or during the physical changes. I am not a TS, but it would seem that one needn't wait until afterward to begin the process. Second, I wonder if the woman you are striving to be is a traditional rather than a contemporary woman. I'm sure that Hilary Clinton and many women like her would not silently bow to male views. Can't one be feminine and still outspoken?

[Aprilrain]

I have to agree with Dawn. I think the day has come (and is long past do) for woman to stand up for themselves. I will not acquiesce to someone just because they have a penis. If fact if anything the fact that they are male usually causes me to question their judgment

[EnglishRose]

The OP seems to boil down to: "are you prepared to shed male privilege" but implies that as one might be hired as male then transitioned on the job, as it were, then they should give up that job because otherwise it's holding on to said privilege. Am I off base?

Also women are allowed to speak their minds. Following some sort of subservient femininity sets feminism back and promotes the status quo where women earn 78% of what men do.

[Beth-Lock]

...women are allowed to speak their minds. Following some sort of subservient femininity sets feminism back and promotes the status quo where women earn 78% of what men do.


I think the day has come (and is long past due) for woman to stand up for themselves. I will not acquiesce to someone just because they have a penis. If fact if anything the fact that they are male usually causes me to question their judgment

Yes, sure, in theory, but it is a conspiracy, in real life, when men demand primacy in a situation, who ever has control of it, in a retail, etc., establishment goes along with him, perhaps tells you to take second place, leave, or etc., so your legs are cutout from under you. The first time it happened to me, I was cheezed with the man and his attitude. It happened again recently, and I could only fume, and resolve to never deal with that establishment again, which turned out to be a little silly. You cannot always deal with these challenges the way one MP joked about, kicking the man in his family jewels when nobody is looking, (for crowd control in his case, when talking to a subordinate about what to do).

Until society adjusts their attitude towards women, (including other women!), there is a limit to how much you can stand up for your self. That is the real RLE, and likely only transwomen notice it, that this sort of thing goes on.

[Rianna Humble]

I agree with the vast majority of what Kathryn although I am not sure why she says that shedding male trappings has to wait until after the physical transformation is complete.

@Beth, I could not disagree with you more. On British television, they recently showed a docuDrama entitled "Made in Dagenham" (one of the ford Motor Company's largest plants in the UK during the 1960s when the events took place). A group of women workers were fed up being paid significantly less than their male counterparts. Despite opposition from the male workers, they took action that eventually led to the government of the day legislating for equalisation of women's pay in the face of threats from Ford to withdraw from the UK entirely (they did not withdraw and have since become an exemplary equal opportunities employer). That UK legislation has been copied in nearly every industrialised nation of the world.

The Dagenham workers were told to take 2nd place or leave and did neither.

[ReineD]

Until society adjusts their attitude towards women, (including other women!), there is a limit to how much you can stand up for your self. That is the real RLE, and likely only transwomen notice it, that this sort of thing goes on.

Totally agree with this. I'm not a woos by any means, I'm a feminist at heart and have been since age 6 when I refused to allow that I couldn't do anything a boy did.

Still, a woman with a strong voice loud enough or a forceful nature strong enough to compete with a man's is still considered a b*tch. This might work for her in some circumstances, if she's the boss for example :), but not in most others. She does need to be strong, but at the same time know how to do this subtly. There are many ways and one way is to develop male allies. When I've spoken, my allies have listened and the other men picked up on it and listened too. Another way is to develop impeccable timing. And killer logic. And not have a shreaky voice, and learn to get to the point rather quickly. It helps to work on the voice the way the singers do to get it to resonate, so that it can still sound feminine but can be heard above a man's voice without shouting.

The last thing that anyone wants to do is act like a bimbo. Some men might think she's cute, but she will never gain any power or be taken seriously that way, which is not a good thing when she's trying to get stuff done.

[Kathryn Martin]

I am not sure that the issue is whether women should assert themselves or not and whether women should speak their mind. This was really not about women's politics and feminism.

The intent of my post was not to foster debate of women's issues but rather what transitioning really means. You see, it is obvious that those who frequent this forum were not socialized as girls as they grew up with the exception of Reine and few other GGs socialized as boys. If you were born in the 1950s and 60s (such as Hilary Clinton) your upbringing would have been what Dawn call "conservative". And with it came certain realities. I would suggest that Hillary Clinton was not raised as the person she turned out to become. Most of us however were raised as boys and imbued with privilege.
I am not talking about what should be but what is. According to US statistics women still earn 19% less than men doing the same job. The majority of rapes are carried out against women. The majority of violence in domestic situations is against women.

Let me get a little blunt here: when was the last time you were threatened with rape? Or be a target of rape? When was the last time a group of men ganged up on your in a business meeting and attempted to and often succeeded in ridiculing you, patting you on the head and overlooking your contribution to the topic at hand? When was the last time your boss (or client or co-worker) insisted you do a project the way they wanted to against your better judgement and succeeding. When was the last time you were paid less than the man in the next cubicle doing the same or lesser job. And when was the last time you had to work much harder than the man in the next cubicle to be given the same consideration by your boss. These are not abstract examples. They happen every day in the workplaces and living spaces world wide.

What I hear you say is: but this should not be so! and I will say to you: Wake up, honey it is! And why should you be excluded. Or worse, why should you exclude yourself from what women face in this society today and why should you assert your privilege.
So what are you doing to find your place in the reality of this world?
In my experience it is a male fallacy to deny reality either by asserting it does not exists or should not exist. This is true especially when it is self directed. Reality could bite you back.

And Beth, you were spot on when you said: "It happened again recently, and I could only fume, and resolve to never deal with that establishment again, which turned out to be a little silly. You cannot always deal with these challenges the way one MP joked about, kicking the man in his family jewels when nobody is looking, (for crowd control in his case, when talking to a subordinate about what to do). "

Reine, as you say, strategies are different, and for us subtle. It is hard to teach a man that we don't smell sweeter when we get stepped on.

[stefan37]

I am not at the point where I am marginalized or not taken seriously. I will point out an experience Melanie Ann Phillips related while she was transitioning. As a male movie director when he said to do a task the men went and performed its. while she was transitioning and performing her duties as a woman, she noticed the men were lackluster or ignored her completely. She thought about it and changed her tactic. Instead of telling them what to do she suggested that they do the task and she found the men responded to her subtle commands. she found that by not directly commanding the workers but kinda telling them to do the work with a question they went about their tasks. I thought hard about this when I read it back in 1995 and although transition at that point was a complete fantasy I started to mange my own employees by the power of suggestion and not directly commanding. I have found people in general respond better than authority commanding them to do something.

Personally I only have little tolerance for people of whatever gender that are trying to perform a task, but are incompetent. I am the type of individual that does not need to be in control if someone is as or more competent than I am. But if you are trying to lead and be in control and you have no clue, well then get the hell out of the way and let someone competent do the job. That said i do agree with much of what Kathryn states about the influence of women in a male atmosphere. Men have a difficult time with female authority or even treating them as equals. I see it all the time in my industry. And as Reine said if I see a woman that has a clue and is competent I will do my best to support her. I wish there were more women techs in this business. I think they would be much more successful in certain areas than my own employees.

Socializing oneself after 50+ years of male indoctrination coupled with the fact that it was considered weakness to display any feminine traits will require great effort on my part and I will do my best to conform to society's convention. But my industry is extremely dangerous and one could get seriously injured or die, so male or not if I encounter a situation where myself or my employees life will be in jeopardy, If I have to, I would resort back to my the way I was raised and socialized to prevent harm. If I am considered a B then so be it.

I do get the gist of what the OP is saying and the advice she gives can help to make socialization to a different gender more successful.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Not all of us are in the same boat, im very different look at it this way i command respect, both in the male & female world & i have done for some time, many years,

You talk about transioning it really has no meaning to me i was able to bypass that because of my difference, i did not jump through a line of hoops as many do. talking for long periods of time with Pychs & so on, You talk about a foundision mine was set when i was born , i did not have the trapings of being forced into a male role or female & all it entails on both sides for that matter yet i have both male & female privilige .

Im very well accepted by both male & female & ill put it nicely i can get men to work under me & i can pull rank on them as well.

Youll be saying im a male then to be able to do that, not quite, im intersexed, so things were & are different for me .all through my life as it is,
So some of us have advantages that out weigh being male or female in my case i have it both ways & at the same time,

Im very well accepted into socity, very intergrated, & respected, ran my own bussness for many years , & to top it off as percived male & as a female woman.

Iv seen it from many points of view, & over 46 years, iv got 55 years out of 65 years of background as a male / female. & thats my difference .

The male / female is as both together its not seperated, as your talking about like life as a male for many years then as a woman for a shorter time for myself its been all my life from birth, for me there is no male or female for me its the same & the one .

The RLE for me was from birth, just not in the normal way thats talked about with in the trans community thats all.

...noeleena...

[Aprilrain]

I think there is a real and palpable difference in the way most of the ladies here were raised in the 50s and 60s and how my sisters and I were raised in the 80s and 90s.

Of course there are tactical differences in the way men and woman approach life, I don't think anyone is saying any different. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what the OP is saying but it kinda sounds like "woman should know their place, shut up and acquiesce to male dominance". Thank god there have been strong intelligent woman who for the last 100 years or so have not accepted that premise. We are now reaping many of the benifits of the hard work they did. And yes every single one if those woman were thought of as uppity bitches by the men of their day.

Feminism is the radical idea that woman are human brings too and deserve the same rights, protections and privileges as men, if you don't believe that you are a retrograde force. And frankly Who cares what men think about women? As a group men will be responsible for the destruction of the human race some time in the next couple thousand years! Unless an asteroid hits us first.

[CharleneT]

Is someone who is past – long past – their one year qualifying RLE and otherwise capable of SRS… transitioned?


I believed for a long time that transition is the laying of a physical foundation. That physical changes I have accomplished constituted transition. I could not have been further from the truth. I have come to realize that transition begins after our physical foundation is laid.

My answer to my friends question is: show me that you have transitioned, telling does not cut it! Show me you are the woman, your say so is not enough!

BINGO !!

I have heard too many folks say something like: "Now that I have had my SRS, I am finally done with transition" We had a member here in the recent past who used to jump on those statements are foolish - telling the speaker that the real work started after SRS and I agree. Of course I do so because hindsight is 20-20 ;) I am not sure whether you are ever "finished".

[kellycan27]

So in essence what you are saying is that until someone has gone through the " full Monty" they should not use the term "transitioned"?

[melissaK]

@April: Might be my town is weird because I haven't checked national averages, but at a university grad ceremony at year end the graduating class was 60-40 women over men. Big big change from my datys.

And as my genx son explained in a discussion on my transition issues, he could show up at his work in dress and they'd throw him a party within 3 days - they tend to celebrate social change being his point.

@Kathryn: not there - my two cents would be pure speculation.

[Badtranny]

So in essence what you are saying is that until someone has gone through the " full Monty" they should not use the term "transitioned"?

Actually I think she may be saying just the opposite. My interpretation is that transition is about living the role rather than playing the role. Or at least I hope so because if this turns into a pre vs post thread then I'm out. ;-)

Male privilege is a real thing and I have already begun to be marginalized in my office after only a year of RLE. Before transition I was the only Division manager who wasn't a VP, so as the most junior of the Senior managers, one could reasonably assume that I was on track to become a VP in the next few years. Since transition my Division has been absorbed by a larger one so I am now a Department manager and based on the political sea change in the office one could safely assume that I am no longer on the VP track. I have dozens of stories of how I've been subtly brushed aside in discussions and decisions and a few more of actually being talked down to by Project Managers from other divisions who are essentially subordinates. My old boss the Senior VP (new boss is the aforementioned Division VP) even let it slip that my transition wasn't a good career move. Anybody who argues that I should assert myself will be ignored because I'm a 15 year construction management pro with absolutely no issues in asserting myself or leading a group of people with disparate agendas. The problem isn't me. I didn't suddenly become incompetent however I did become a woman rather suddenly.

The OP isn't about the content of your underpants, it's about the content of your life. Do people perceive you as a woman with all of the associated frailties or do they perceive you as something different because your transition is less than authentic. You may have made the physical commitment without making the social one, and how you socialize with the rest of the world every day in every way is the only true measure of a successful gender transition.

[Kathryn Martin]

This has nothing to do with pre v. post. That was incidental to my own history. And thank you Misty, you get it. You also emphasize that this begins after the full laying of the foundation (even if pre SRS although things do change even more after).

And Charlene, I don't think it ever does stop.

[kellycan27]

This has nothing to do with pre v. post. That was incidental to my own history. And thank you Misty, you get it. You also emphasize that this begins after the full laying of the foundation (even if pre SRS although things do change even more after).

And Charlene, I don't think it ever does stop.



Transitioning
Is someone who is past – long past – their one year qualifying RLE and otherwise capable of SRS… transitioned?

You asked the question. What is your take on it? How about leaving out the smoke and mirrors of male privilege, socialization and such and answering Straight out... Do you consider someone who hasn't gone the full route.... Transitioned?

[Kathryn Martin]

If you consider what I wrote smoke and mirrors then I can't really help you Kelly. I think the post sufficiently answers the question from my point of view.

[kellycan27]

Sorry... I just don't see the correlation between the OP and male privilege etc. Opining that transition takes place after full physical transition seems to indicate to me that you don't feel that pre-ops should consider themselves as "transitioned".
That being the case I do see you making a distinction between pre and post-op. if not why ask the question to begin with?
I will agree with you in that life does change to a degree post transition, but one can certainly experience many of the same things during their RLE when they are living it 24/7 365 just as the post-OP does. I don't see where having a vagina would make that much difference. If we do use the male privilege card... Someone who is living an RLE but as yet to fully transition will still be subject to said male privilege if she's out there with the rest of us.

[Kathryn Martin]

This has nothing to do with pre v. post. That was incidental to my own history.

I am sure you are right, Kelly. I apologize for my confusion.

[LeaP]

There are three issues with "transitioned." One has to do with grammar, another with conventional usage, the third with precision.

The verb to transition is ditransitive. It conveys a change of state, but logically only when the starting and ending conditions are specified. In a NON-transsexual context, for example, saying you transitioned at work would be meaningless. Transitioned what? Your role? Your responsibilities? To whom or what?

Conventional usage in the transsexual context is to shortcut this - using it as an intransitive verb. Depending on the larger context of the conversation, it can be good enough. A transsexual saying that she transitioned at work, for example, conveys meaning efficiently. In this case it would be awkward to say that one transitioned "socially" at work, though that is what is meant. And no-one would assume she was making a reference to surgery. Think how vague other transitive verbs can be when used as intransitive verbs. Consider the sentence "I went." Yet we somehow expect "transitioned" to answer every context.

A related problem is whether one is trying to convey an objective or subjective change in state. SRS, for example, is objective, having a very precise meaning. Social transition is conventionally objective in that most take it to mean full-time, which is why people get frustrated with part-timers' arrogation of the word, reducing conversations to arguments semantics when they should not. But people also use the word transition in highly subjective ways, as when they issue undefined qualifiers (e.g., "fully" transitioned) or when they use transition to connote such things as the "completion" of "becoming" the woman "they always were" or "were meant to be." The former is, of course, an inner experience, the latter is actually unknowable or perhaps a philosophical point. These are evocative emotionally, but create verbal spaghetti when anyone tries reducing their meaning in unintended ways.

I prefer precision, recognize and use the common verbal shortcuts, but am aware (obviously) of the possible ambiguities. So I can live with some conventions like "transitioned at work" but really don't like the undefined, simple "transitioned" in some contexts because when it connotes subjectivity it infuriates people. That kind of casual, unconscious subjectivity is what ignites the arguments over exclusion, hierarchy, and elitism.

Long preface ...

To answer the question, I have to disclose my own subjectivity. *I* think transitioned (intransitive sense, conveying the subjective "full" transition) means cross-sex hormone administration, full-time social transition, and SRS. This is also a fairly conventional and practical definition. Anything less - intent, means, capability, health, attitude, etc. notwithstanding - is a limited transition. No value judgement need be imputed. I understand closest approximation also, but think this a separate concept.

So my answer to the OP question is no, the person has NOT "transitioned."

By the way, while I believe that personal change and development continue well past SRS, for life in fact, this is far too subjective to be practically included in the meaning of transition. I think it better to separate this conceptually and syntactically.

[Nigella]

From my own perspective, at this point in time I am TRANSITIONING, I have done RLE as per the requirements of UK NHS guidelines, I am preparing for surgery in that I am in the process of completing the requirements as requested by the surgeon.

Up to the point where I am "out cold" on the surgeons table, I am still transitioning, once I wake up post surgery I have TRANSITIONED. I have completed the journey from being male to being female. Mind and body will be in sync with each other.

Post surgery is yet another journey, but it is not a transition per se.

[Frances]

Post surgery is yet another journey, but it is not a transition per se.

How do you know? You are not there yet.

[Nigella]

I know because it is my journey.

[Kathryn Martin]

I know because it is my journey.

Nigella,

For me this answer is a non-sequitur at best or at worst a "I am telling you how things are" kind of statement.

You make a statement about something that you cannot possibly have any personal experience of, while disregarding what those that have walked this path before you have to say. You are making a value judgement about something that is entirely outside of your personal experience. Can you tell me how you can come to such a judgement?

[Nigella]

Yes, because I know what I have to do. If you note, I have said
From my own perspective and
I know because it is my journey

I have given MY view on MY transition, I don't think that I have said that this is "how it should be" or given a view on what others believe transition to be. I would not presume because each journey is different. After surgery I have transitioned to being a woman, there are still things I need to learn on how to be me, just as any genetic woman is still learning what it means to be them.

I have had an easy journey, unlike a lot of TSs, but I don't let my experience detract from others.

[Kathryn Martin]

I believe that personal change and development continue well past SRS, for life in fact, this is far too subjective to be practically included in the meaning of transition. I think it better to separate this conceptually and syntactically.

While I would walk with you on practical and conventional use of "transitioned" I would disagree with you on subjectivity of post SRS experiences of those that have gone down this road.

The theme of these experiences is not driven by individuality or even personality but is rather occasioned by how your social environment interacts with you and impact it has on where you intellectually, emotionally and spiritually locate yourself in your world. This experience reported is universally experienced by all persons who transition past surgery except very young type VI transsexuals who have no or only a short biographical history.

You could consider a difference between pre-surgery transition and post-surgery transition with changing your stripes to being what your stripes suggest you are. This process mentioned above is not something which is entirely up to you both in experiencing your own inner "deficiencies" and how your world responds to them. Recognizing how you were socialized in your biography is only the beginning. This process is all about integration.

The board is replete with “acceptance” stories, with “how I am treated” stories. Except those that specifically relay events that were derogatory, the stories tell validation stories of how the teller has been accepted in their presentation. But acceptance is not integration. There is a gaping abyss between acceptance and integration. Acceptance is content specific. It is impossible to fathom the content of this acceptance when we experience such an event. Is it that we are accepted as a transitioning or transitioned individual? Integration events if experienced are of an entirely different quality and are directly related to the degree in which we can overcome male socialization and how it expresses itself subconsciously in our conduct and behavior. It is the question whether your counterpart in this encounter even realizes that there is or was a history. If your counterpart even asks the question, even subconsciously, then integration is not possible. This is not an issue of the person “knowing” but rather the subconscious, visceral reaction to who you are and the clues that flow from that. And this will forever mark you either a woman or a transitioned person, unless you “transition” from presentation work to integration work.

In the integration work, saying who you are never carries any weight and neither does how you look. Aesthetic pass ability seems to matter and matters during the “laying of a foundation” or physical transition, in integration work aesthetic pass ability means nothing. Women do come in all shapes and sizes and there are many women who suffer from masculine features and bodies and voices that are not immediately female. No one ever would mistake these women as men. Their entire conduct, behavior, speech patterns, conversation styles, gestures, movement, occupation of space gives the right clues.

For us these clues are not present, either unlearned partially or fully, or erased to create survival mechanisms locking into place to make it through.

The Topic which I have addressed in this OP and further expansions should not be seen a challenge, but rather an invitation to re-think, re-consider, self examine so that we can understand the import, significance and nature of what we undertake.

I read and heard in one on one conversations many of the post surgery accounts of women that went before me. I had no experience to measure their experiences they relayed to me. The content of their experiences however, always carried a ring of truth and so I paid attention.

[LeaP]

I'm sure you are right about post-SRS transition, Kathryn. What I really had in mind in thinking that it was too subjective was the factor of diminishing returns. I.e., there is no definable end point. Again, I suppose as a practical matter that one simply stops thinking about it eventually. Or perhaps not often enough to matter much. I'm clearly out of my depth on this, though, so I think I'll stop there.

[Kathryn Martin]

Lea, this "I suppose as a practical matter that one simply stops thinking about it eventually" is a shrewd observation. By all accounts it stops when you are integrated. Not as a definable end point but as a falling away.

It is at that point finally our experiences compare to any woman's, not before as Nigella suggest.

[ReineD]

But acceptance is not integration. There is a gaping abyss between acceptance and integration.

I've been following this conversation with interest and I think the crux of what you are saying is in your statement above?

Regardless of whether a TS is post-op or not (although being post-op makes it easier), do you (and others) feel fully integrated. This means, for example, that a GG would see you or feel in every fiber of her being that you are "one of her own" and not a transwoman, or someone who "was born a man". It's the difference between being included and being set apart, even when a GG completely accepts the transition.

Conversely, it means that a GM would see you as "one of them". The other camp. Someone in the female camp, and not someone who looks like a female but who might have, or who used to have a penis.

You are saying that a transition is accomplished once there is complete and unequivocal integration into society, not merely in looks but more importantly, in how others feel toward you.

[Frances]

You are saying that a transition is accomplished once there is complete and unequivocal integration into society, not merely in looks but more importantly, in how others feel toward you.

In my case, I needed to feel diffrent about myself for that to even start to happen, and that was quite some time post-surgery. All my thoughts pre-SRS were focused on the next thing regarding my physical transformation: electrolysis, appointments with the endo and having hormones adjusted, appointments with my therapist, surgery, etc. My interactions with people were tainted by this. I would think and talk about it. Interactions with people who did not know me were also impacted by this, like in the case of changing rooms where I did feel completely legitimate.

After surgery (and a pretty long time after it in fact), I stopped thinking of myself as a transitioning person and simply as a women. That's when I started to feel freer and lost my inhibitions in my social interactions. I am still learning all the time about what it means to be a woman and how the world interacts with me. But that is since I stopped thinking about the physical transition.

[Nicole Erin]

You asked the question. What is your take on it? How about leaving out the smoke and mirrors of male privilege, socialization and such and answering Straight out... Do you consider someone who hasn't gone the full route.... Transitioned?

Does it REALLY matter what Kaitlyn personally considers to be "transitioned"? Maybe it is just me but her opinion of how "tranny" I am doesn't play any role in my decision on how to live.

[kellycan27]

It was a personal observation that I misunderstood. Kathryn was kind enough and patient enough to explain it to me in PM.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Does it REALLY matter what Kaitlyn personally considers to be "transitioned"? Maybe it is just me but her opinion of how "tranny" I am doesn't play any role in my decision on how to live.

ummmm...

I'm Kaitlyn...what did i do now?? :doh:

[Leslie Langford]

I hope that I am not out of line in providing my own observations here with regard your premise of (alleged) male vs. female privilege, Kathryn, as I am not transsexual myself and therefore not in the process of transitioning - either pre-op or post-op. I will, however, say that being of the same generation that you are, I can see where some of your life experiences and perceptions come from, and which are likely deeply-rooted in the type of socialization that we all - male or female - were subjected to during the era in which we grew up.

I would further submit that - and at the risk of inviting hell-fire to rain down upon my head from assorted hard-core feminists out there - the situation for women in today's world is infinitely far more favorable than it has ever been in the past. They have considerably more opportunities nowadays to spread their wings and follow their hearts - both professionally and socially - and also to do so without the fear of recrimination that men often face when attempting the same thing.

Women who break down barriers and demand their rightful places in the "man's world" are applauded and regarded as trail-blazers. Men who go in the opposite direction and seek roles traditionally occupied by women, be it a "house-husband", primary care-giver, day-care worker, or nurse etc. are still viewed for the most part with a jaundiced eye - or worse - with some level of suspicion as to what their "real" motives are for following those paths. They are seen as taking the "easier", less "manly", and therefore, inferior route to self-fulfillment. Conversely, no one questions a woman why she aspires to be the CEO of a company. If anything, it's "You go, girl!"

Yes, the battle for equal pay for equal for work is not yet over in many areas, but the good news is that the gap continues to narrow, and it is only a matter of time before it disappears completely. Then again, Rome wasn't built in a day either as the saying goes, and other groups - including our own LGBT community - are only now at the point where our struggles for acceptance and a complete reversal of the type of institutional and socially-sanctioned ridicule and discrimination that used to be the norm are now well within sight.

Study upon study has shown lately that when it comes to the "at risk" sex, the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction now, and if anything, it is the boys and young men who now see themselves adrift and wonder what place there is for them in today's world where all the affirmative action initiatives in recent years have been directed towards females.

Men are becoming increasingly more marginalized in our post-industrial economy where the traditional male preferences for physical work that demands strength, endurance and constant activity, along with the stereotypical attributes of good eye-hand co-ordination, enhanced spatial skills, the ability work towards a goal as part of a co-ordinated team even in the face of personal differences among individual members - not to mention our inherent competitiveness and ability to stay focused and task-oriented even when confronted with multiple distractions - are less and less valued.

These are no longer seen as valuable attributes in our increasingly female-dominated, knowledge-based economies with the current emphasis on nurturing and collaborative work environments, and where focus groups, team-building, cross-functional task forces, constant and instantaneous performance feedback, and acute awareness of others' "feelings" are the order of the day. In other words, an approach to work that suits the female psyche better, as they are far more concerned with "having it all" and working in an affirming and less cut-throat environment while achieving an acceptable level of work-life balance. This is in direct contrast to men, who are far more likely act in their own (and often destructive) self-interest. And as for those who still have a modicum of ambition, they are far more likely than women to sacrifice family life and work-life balance in the interests of moving their careers ahead as they seek to grasp the brass ring.

It has come to the point where for the most part, women simply don't need men in their lives anymore except perhaps as sperm donors so that they can embrace single motherhood on their own terms and without those messy, noisy, sports-obsessed, unreliable, womanizing "man-children" in their lives to complicate matters, as they are now increasingly self-reliant as well as economically independent.

Not only that, but girls typically do better in school nowadays, and this actually gives them a head-start in that direction because in most Western countries, the educational systems are not only still dominated by women, the curricula and teaching methods are geared towards learning styles that females typically thrive on (more sedentary, more collaborative, more supportive and nurturing, less cut-throat and competitive etc.). Given that, the fact that many traditional "male" occupations (e.g. manufacturing) are rapidly disappearing, and that women are given preferential consideration over their male counterparts for the few that still exist to meet often implicit (if not down-right mandated) "quotas", many young men nowadays choose to opt out in a "failure to launch" manner.

This often involves dropping out of high school, shunning university, and retreating to their parents' basements to play video games in between working at a series of temporary, dead-end McJobs, earning just enough to get by, and with no real plans for the future. At the same time, young women now make up the majority of both university applicants and graduates, they are the ones going to graduate school to become the new breed of MBA's, Chartered Accountants, and lawyers etc., and in many professional faculties (e.g. Medicine, Law, Business Administration etc.) they now out-number the men.

I wonder, Kathryn, if the fact that your current partner in your law firm is a young female doesn't speak precisely to my above points, and that on some level, it is no coincidence that she is part of the demographic that I describe here.

For the men of our generation, the pathway was fairly well-defined. Go to school (and sometimes on to university), get a job that pays decently enough to raise a family, get married, have children, put in the requisite number of years at your job (typically at only one employer as well), move up in the hierarchy if possible to advance in your career, and retire at the end of it all with a pat on the back, a reasonable pension, and a gold watch. In the meantime, our wives stayed home, raised the children and generally did their June Cleaver routine. The wife was the rock and foundation of the family, stood willingly by her man throughout, and was rewarded for her efforts with an equally fulfilling retirement and the opportunity to spend her golden years alongside her husband as a doting Grandma.

This is a "Leave It to Beaver/Mad Men" world that rarely exists anymore in Western society, and I would submit that it is the "real" men who have the bigger challenge in "transitioning", "transforming", or "re-inventing" themselves to adapt to the new realities of the world than we transgendered/transsexual types.

As for the M-T-F transsexuals, they certainly have their own unique challenges to contend with in leaving their archaic former gender role-based expectations behind, but at least they are now joining the winning team. This adds a whole new level of motivation into the mix to make the journey somewhat less daunting.

[LeaP]

[snip! ... Extended reverse sexist rant]

As for the M-T-F transsexuals, they certainly have their own unique challenges to contend with in leaving their archaic former gender role-based expectations behind, but at least they are now joining the winning team. This adds a whole new level of motivation into the mix to make the journey somewhat less daunting.

Leslie,

Congratulations on posting one of the most egregious smears I've read here to-date.

Daunting? You have no idea - none.

[Badtranny]

Congratulations on posting one of the most egregious smears I've read here to-date.

I agree, that was a bizarre piece of fiction. I suppose it's possible that people of a certain age have that point of view but wow, I can't even imagine.

I have worked as a man for my entire career and as a woman for only a year, and I can say for certain that male privilege exists and women are treated differently. This world that you described does not exist at all in my experience and my profession is still male dominated by any measure. In fact any advancement made by women is almost celebrated because it seems so novel.

...and that bit about me having it easier than the 'real' men because they have to adapt, and I'm joining the winning team? Priceless.

[Darla]

Yeah. Wow. I'm just a plain ol CDer. Not for one moment do I believe that men have it worse than the ladies. I have to ask where all these facts come from? Talk radio? Personal experience? No seriously. There's some strongly held belief about others privledge without actually being a member of that group.

Just the facts Ma'am.

[Kathryn Martin]

I am a feminist but by no stretch of imagination am I hard core. You could not be more wrong when you say [women] have considerably more opportunities nowadays to spread their wings and follow their hearts - both professionally and socially - and also to do so without the fear of recrimination that men often face when attempting the same thing. My young partner was an associate in my law firm for eight years before we set out on our own. She, and by extension I (her ¼ boss) experienced the glass ceiling a law office environment provides , especially when all partners are male was atrocious. She was essentially considered and used as a workhorse, was provided no opportunities to build her own practice, was supervised in ways that none of our male associates experienced. These were not so overt actions and decisions taken by the partners but the view from a male perspective of female employees (all other women in the firm were also considered minions) were so inappropriate it caused me to leave the firm after 14 years. I was voted down at every turn when trying to introduce changes that would have changed the environment into an equitable one.


The notion that women who break down barriers are applauded is a complete fallacy. It may appear so, because the media portrays women who are successful like they are trophies in the male world curiosity cabinet and paraded around like the fig leaf in front of societies collective dicks. The reality is however quite different. Men who take an increased role in traditionally female roles are considered enlightened and at worst less ambitious than your run of the mill CEO. Women see these men as taking on their fair share of work which has in the past been carried by women alone.

The equal pay for equal work is in a ridiculous state. If you step back one moment and ask yourself why women are paid less you will see revealed the most abject discrimination. Women are paid less because in this society women are still considered not as providers. It is the intentional disregard of reality. That the gap continues to close just does not cut it. There is zero, as Z*E*R*O reason that there is a gap. The mollifying meme of were moving is the most colossal bullshit a male driven society is putting out there.

To describe men as becoming marginalized in a society in which the income disparity is growing (see Washington Post March 7th, 2013) and in which the total employment of men still by far outperforms women employment (even worse when the women have children) (see Report by the World Banks Gender and Development Study) is just weird. And the attributes you write about, Leslie are just sexist and not supported by any evidence.

I have no idea how to address your characterization of men and women in the work place. Sorry but for me this is just beyond belief. It is an interpretation of reality into which I can neither conceptually or intellectually follow you. If you were beside me I would scream at you and smack you back upside the head. To me it reveals a subversive kind of sexism that knows no bounds. Sorry!



As for the M-T-F transsexuals, they certainly have their own unique challenges to contend with in leaving their archaic former gender role-based expectations behind, but at least they are now joining the winning team. This adds a whole new level of motivation into the mix to make the journey somewhat less daunting. These two sentences reveal a depth of misunderstanding of what transsexualism is that it makes me want to cry. At the same time it is patronizing, paternalistic and incredibly offensive to anyone who suffers from this condition. It presumes motives and and suggest benefits where there are none and then attributes a motivation for transition that is designed to malign the struggle we experience.

[Frances]

Congratulations on posting one of the most egregious smears I've read here to-date.

I don't think it's that bad a comment, but it negates the diagnostic. Transition cannot be saught for societal advantage or gain.

A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In children, the disturbance is manifested by four (or more) of the following:

(1) repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex
(2) in boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing
(3) strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make-believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex
(4) intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex
(5) strong preference for playmates of the other sex. In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.

[Saffron]

Regardless of whether a TS is post-op or not (although being post-op makes it easier)

My psychologist told me about cases in which TS women undergo operations too soon and they were unable to integrate into her new role, they've been depressed for years and still are.

So I don't think being post-op is the end. Curing your gender dysphoria, whatever you have to do, is to me the end of the transition.

[Badtranny]

So I don't think being post-op is the end.

Unfortunately you have no way of knowing until you've done it.

This is why I don't argue this point with my Postie sisters. Regardless of how well grounded my argument may be, I will always have to admit that mine is speculation at best and theirs is empirical at worst.

...but just wait until I get the SRS, then I'll show 'em! ;-)

[Frances]

I don't think being post-op is the end.

Actually, Kathryn is kind of saying that it's the beginning.

[Saffron]

Well, I was responding to Reine


Unfortunately you have no way of knowing until you've done it.

This is why I don't argue this point with my Postie sisters. Regardless of how well grounded my argument may be, I will always have to admit that mine is speculation at best and theirs is empirical at worst.

...but just wait until I get the SRS, then I'll show 'em! ;-)

I know little and why no means I'm trying to argue with nobody. But I know this: transition is not the same for each of us. There are TS women who stays happily non-op where others post-op still have trouble adapting even after years.

My personal experience on the matter, it's just that, my personal experience. The day I get the SRS I still wouldn't be able to tell how it feels in others.

[Frances]

My personal experience on the matter, it's just that, my personal experience. The day I get the SRS I still wouldn't be able to tell how it feels to others.

That's because you have no prior knowledge of it. Every single post-op on this site or in my personal life has been able to explain how it feels. I did a few posts above.

For the record, being non-op is fine with me. The point of the OP is that transition really starts after the physical stuff is over, and that can be short of SRS in some cases.

[ReineD]

I'll go to bat for Leslie a bit and say that I've read newspaper and magazine articles that suggest the same thing, namely that men are becoming more marginalized. It is true that in the US at least, we no longer have a manufacturing based economy which until recent history was dominated by men. Many of the manufacturing jobs have been outsourced. And it is also true that women currently receive three undergrad degrees for every two earned by men. But, women are graduating in lower but near equal numbers from law and medical schools, and they received 44% of MBAs in 2007. Still, women prefer the more flexible jobs because they remain the primary parents and they take on the majority of the household responsibilities:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2011/03/07/20-surprising-jobs-women-are-taking-over/

We do need two salaries now, to live according to the same standards as 30-40 years ago (few families can survive reasonably well on one salary alone like before), and this does account for the drastic gender distribution changes in the work force. But men are far from becoming marginalized ... we're just seeing shifts in our economy, in my opinion.

As to who is more favored in schools, boys or girls, Leslie if you do a google search you will see differing opinions.

If more young men now are wasting their time in their parent's basements playing video games, I think this is an indication of indulgent parents more than a major trend in "male discouragement" over not being able to compete with women. I know this because I have one nephew who went through a similar phase. But, he's in his mid 20s now and he is finally moving forward with his adult life.

[Frances]

I'll go to bat for Leslie a bit and say that I've read newspaper and magazine articles that suggest the same thing, namely that men are becoming more marginalized...

There is a whole movement for this purpose: men's rights activits (MRA), which includes women champions like GirlWritesWhat on YouTube. It does not, however, change the fact that nobody transitions to gain a societal advantage. The notion is insane. If anything, transition is almost guaranteed marginlization, even for the pretty ones.

[Saffron]

Sorry, what I tried to say is that I'll be able to tell my experience, but I couldn't extrapolate my feelings to others.

I'm too tired today and my English skills are suffering from it :D

[ReineD]

Oh I agree Frances that no one transitions to gain a societal advantage. I do think that men still hold a privileged position, even though women are not nearly as close to the bottom of the totem pole as they were before.

I was addressing some of Leslie's economical and educational points.

[Kathryn Martin]

I'll go to bat for Leslie a bit and say that I've read newspaper and magazine articles that suggest the same thing, namely that men are becoming more marginalized

I have seen the newspaper articles as well. It is a weird statement though when you look at the disparity in employment (as opposed to income). Can men become marginalized as long there is no employment equity? That is the issue for me. The general thrust of this is to actually blow the horn before equity is achieved because there is a political agenda behind such reporting.

The other issue is multiple disadvantages such as being of racial background and being a woman.

[Saffron]

I think they felt they lost the privilege and to them is like to become marginalized.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Ali G to priest... "are you for against abortion?"
Priest..."why i'm against it of course"
Ali G "have you ever had an abortion?"
Priest..."of course not!!!!"

Ali G.."well you know what they say, don't knock it till you tried it"

++++++++++++++++++++++++

its hard to communicate specific experience sometimes...saffron i agree with most of what you are saying...frances point is about how so many of us had the exact same type of experience...its not that complicated and its non controversial..
plus we came at it from different places as you suggest (all transitions are different) and ended up having a very similar outcome.

...also people that rush into srs are fools...its each persons responsibility to themselves to set up for a good quality of life...i'm saying that folks that werent ready for srs failed for themselves and are not indicative of your life or my life..

+++++++++++

Leslie i'm sorry but the comments you are getting on your post are deserved.....what you wrote reads like a political fictionmania cd story..

[melissaK]

Threads been a interesting read.
I'm not sure I got anything new out of it.
Is that good?
I mean it could mean I'm well grounded in my understanding of the issues put in play.
Well, I'm going to take it that way and call it good. :: pat self on back ::
;^)

*and Kathyryn, crap. Your glass ceiling experiences in Canadian law match mine in my SW US city. My future options are narrowing as moving to Canada is now off my list. ;^)

[ReineD]

I have seen the newspaper articles as well. It is a weird statement though when you look at the disparity in employment (as opposed to income). Can men become marginalized as long there is no employment equity? That is the issue for me. The general thrust of this is to actually blow the horn before equity is achieved because there is a political agenda behind such reporting.

Right. If you look a little further down my post, you will see that contrary to what may be popular opinion in some circles, I do not agree that men are becoming marginalized. I do think they still hold a position of privilege in our society. But it is important to also acknowledge that the gender gap has narrowed considerably in the last 30 years.

[Saffron]

Just to clarify, I consider myself a total novice to all of this, I try to learn each day and I find all your experiences very valuable :)

Each time I post here I feel like a little girl among full grown adults :D

[Kathryn Martin]

Right. If you look a little further down my post, you will see that contrary to what may be popular opinion in some circles, I do not agree that men are becoming marginalized. I do think they still hold a position of privilege in our society. But it is important to also acknowledge that the gender gap has narrowed considerably in the last 30 years.

I agree with you on this. It began in the 1970 at least in Europe I experienced that. And I did see the later part of your post:). I was fatally failing at agreeing with you:battingeyelashes: at least in my words:doh:and keep making it worse. I better leave.... I think....

E keeps asking me if I need a bigger shovel......

[ReineD]

E keeps asking me if I need a bigger shovel......

LOL. It's really hard to give a sense of our tone of voice in posts. Discussions would be so much easier if we could all be in one big room. :)

[stefan37]

Oh what a free for all that would be.

[Beth-Lock]

The theme of these experiences is not driven by individuality or even personality but is rather occasioned by how your social environment interacts with you and impact it has on where you intellectually, emotionally and spiritually locate yourself in your world.

I think this means: Do do you feel that you are a woman, know that you are a woman, (in a sense different than before transition?), and live your spiritual life, as a woman? It is a matter of feeling and being involved in your nature as a woman, of living thoroughly in your female essence, (existentially), as her argument goes. It is rather abstract, so the issue of whether or not you feel it, is just confirmation, (rather than necessary for proof), and not needed to accept it intellectually. But this is just the preamble.


... This process is all about integration. .... But acceptance is not integration. There is a gaping abyss between acceptance and integration. Acceptance is content specific. It is impossible to fathom the content of this acceptance when we experience such an event. Is it that we are accepted as a transitioning or transitioned individual?

Integration is an accepted concept in the psychology of the personality, and one that applies to GG's and born males who are not transitioners, of course. I came to the conclusion that much of what Ms. Martin is trying to separate from 'integration' can be more derogatorily called (mere) toleration, which was how I analysed my experience of a crisis for me in my church.

Footnote: Integration of one's personality, in conventional psychology, is in part becoming consistent, so you do't do one thing, in one context or situation, yet the opposite in another different only perhaps in inessential ways. One trivial example is hypocrisy and anorther, the double standard, though lack of integration can be deeply dsfunctional, our intolerance of contradiction, giving rise to the concept of cognitive dissonance. Another way to achieve psychological wellness, is by being centered, (a term of Rollo May).

Back to the story: I was happy that I was accepted, (in Ms.Martin's terms, felt integrated), as being a woman, by those that did not know I was not a GG. When gossip started to spread the knowledge that I was trans, so it was no longer a small minority that knew that, I panicked, and stopped attending the church then, shortly before SRS. I trid to go to other churches where I was not known, finding an experience of integration confirmed by nobody knowing for sure at least, that I was trans.

Eventually I did return to the problematic chuirch, (coincidentally, some time after SRS), accepting being merely tolerated, even if by then at least half the congregation no longer saw me as just a woman and not a transwoman. So these concepts that Ms.Martin has chosen to point to, have a reality in one's life, that has a fierce impact indeed, rather than mainly an intellectual significance.


Integration events if experienced are of an entirely different quality and are directly related to the degree in which we can overcome male socialization and how it expresses itself subconsciously in our conduct and behavior. ...this will forever mark you either a woman or a transitioned person, unless you ....(move) ... from presentation work to integration work.

In the integration work, saying who you are never carries any weight and neither does how you look. For us these clues are not present, either unlearned partially or fully, or erased to create survival mechanisms locking into place to make it through.

As mentioned, my analysis was baed on drawing a line between ' toleration' and what I called 'acceptance,' the content (in Ms. Martin's analysis, being I suppose, accepting me as an unhyphenated woman, either in ignorance of my being trans in biography, or in accepting that the definition of woman includes trans-women with equal status to GG's, and perhaps this would be an instance of integration of the two categories of womanhood into one, that we can hope society will one day adopt after further educatiion on the trans phenomenon).

[melissaK]

LOL. It's really hard to give a sense of our tone of voice in posts. Discussions would be so much easier if we could all be in one big room. :)

I thought this was a nice polite thread. No moderators lock down involved - a refreshing change. Though some could stand to use some texting tips on how to integrate emotional tone and facial and body expressions, maybe by using those colon thingies ::shrugs shoulders with open palms ::?

[ReineD]

Even in the art world ...


My SO is constantly sending me links to interesting articles on art. It is a passion that we both share. I found this in my mailbox a few days ago but just got around to reading it:

The Gallery's Glass Ceiling: Sexism Persists in Art World (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/sexism-in-the-german-art-world-a-890378.html)


Theoretically, Meckseper says, all doors are open to both sexes, but only theoretically -- in practice, everyone's focus is on male art. This sexism in art exists in the United States as well, she says, although it is subtler there than in Germany, and thus also more difficult to combat. "Sexism in Germany is more heavy-handed, more direct. A culture of macho behavior still dominates, which is definitely annoying, but is also easier to latch onto and thus easier to address," Meckseper explains. She says there is a pattern of behavior in Germany that has "become defensive" and "won't be able to hold up much longer."

Then Meckseper uses the same term that has come to sound almost old-fashioned: "gender equality." Even more old-fashioned, though, is the fact that gender equality still doesn't exist.

[Nicole Erin]

The reality is - you are not a true transsexual until you have had the hole operation

[Kathryn Martin]

Erin, I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong on this. Having SRS does not qualify you as transsexual at all. SRS is a cure to transsexuality not a qualification to be transsexual.

[Rogina B]

I am assuming that Erin meant the "whole operation",not the "hole operation"..lol

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Erin, I am sorry, but you could not be more wrong on this. Having SRS does not qualify you as transsexual at all. SRS is a cure to transsexuality not a qualification to be transsexual.

that's a really good point....the only qualification is to be a transsexual..

[melissaK]

@Erin: ROFLMAO - so punny!!

[LeaP]

LOL. It's really hard to give a sense of our tone of voice in posts. Discussions would be so much easier if we could all be in one big room. :)

Oh, I don't know. Some of us might not speak at all in such a situation. I find interacting with people who know who I am to be easier, but still feel myself fighting to let go of controlling my thoughts, emotions and expressiveness. It limits the exchange and it's easier to withdraw. This is something I have tried to explain to my wife, that hiding who I am is incredibly strong, learned behavior. Overcoming the fear of what people might think of you if they really saw you is hard when you are convinced that you are fundamentally not worth much. The intellectual knowledge that that isn't true doesn't help, unfortunately.

LOL - more response than you probably wanted to a simple comment.

[Leslie Langford]

Kathryn, perhaps you can resist for a moment the urge to smack me upside the head for expressing a contrarian point of view in relation to yours ;) and allow me to respond to some of the issues that you have raised in turn. More specifically, I find it interesting that you decided to cherry-pick the points that I was trying to make while side-stepping the larger issues. In the interest of fairness, though, I believe that they merit being revisited and explored again in more detail.

To my point - I never once said that women had won the proverbial "Battle of the Sexes" and yes, at last count, men by-and-large still hold the reins of power in most spheres. But what is significant here is the trending in the way that society is evolving, and at this point, it is definitely working in favor of women.

By way of analogy, look at the way the stock market operates. In it, the portfolio managers and stock analysts who work on behalf of brokerage houses and financial institutions worry less about how a stock has performed in the past, and are focused instead on its trajectory and prospects for the future.

They don't care that Apple Corporation was once the darling of the stock market, sits on billions of dollars of liquid assets and has had God-knows-how-many successive quarters of exponential growth in sales and revenues up until recently. All they see at this time is a company that is bereft of its former charismatic leader and is essentially rudderless; an organization which has lost its "mojo", and whose lunch is currently being eaten in great big chunks by Samsung. And consequently, said analysts are both shorting and driving Apple's stock down relentlessly. We've seen this movie before, and it's called "RIM" (a.k.a. "BlackBerry"), and prior to that - "Nortel". Point is - while women still have a ways to catch up with men in a number of fields, it's not so much the past - or even the present - that is relevant here; it is the trending and it's ultimate outcome.

The leaders of 4 of Canada's 10 provinces currently are women, and bonus - one is an openly "out" lesbian with a same-sex spouse. This is not progress? Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany is the leader of the world's second or third largest economy (depending on whose numbers you believe), the de facto leader of the European Union, and the individual in whose hands the fate of the ever-growing number of financial bail-out candidates lies. I call that power. Margaret Thatcher? The Argentineans wish they had never heard of her following their Falkland Islands War humiliation. Hillary Clinton? Second only to U.S. President Barack Obama in terms of her power and influence globally while she served as Secretary of State. The smart money is also on her being the first female U.S. President in due course. Marissa Mayer and the way she was recently vaulted to the top spot at Yahoo despite being pregnant and only 36 years old? Not too shabby, including her purported $117 salary. I could go on and on, but you catch my drift.

I wish that in replying to my previous post, you had also seen fit to comment on my contention that the current educational systems in most Western countries are alarmingly skewed towards women, and how that assists them in succeeding at the expense of their male counterparts. This is not just my opinion - these same alarm bells have been raised by numerous respected commentators in the media, and is seen as a worrisome trend which now needs to be addressed pro-actively. The fact that females now outnumber male students at most universities and also predominate in professional faculties such as Law, Medicine, Finance, and Business Administration etc. is also part of this trend. These are the business and political leaders of tomorrow, and it is only a matter of time before the "sisterhood" greatly diminishes the proverbial "Old Boys' Network", if not dealing it a death blow altogether in due course.

As lawyer, maybe you could also address in your feedback some of the inequties that still exist in family law in many jurisdictions, and how many of these laws still work on behalf of women in terms of alimony, child support, and child custody. This is still often to the detriment of the male partner because women are still largely seen as the victim in these cases despite the strides they have made over the years in terms of equality and bettering their personal and financial situations on other fronts. I'm sure many forum members here can jump in at this point with their own horror stories of how they were unceremoniously stripped of their hard-earned assets by vindictive wives and complicit attorneys and courts.

I also remember back in the early 70's when my future wife and I visited a notary in my home province of Quebec before getting married to look into the value/desirability of getting a so-called "marriage contract" (analogous to a pre-nup agreement), which was in vogue in those days. The notary went over a standard contract with us to provide an idea of what it was all about, and all I heard was "The wife has, the wife gets, the wife is entitled to..." etc., etc., with nary a mention of the male partner's rights. I stopped him part-way through his discourse to note that as I understood it, this type of contract essentially said that my future wife could take a lover one day, buy a little red sports car, head for parts unknown, still be entitled to half of our joint assets and - bonus - I would have to continue making the payments on the sports car after she was long gone. A slight smirk crossed his face after I had finished making my point, and he had to concede that the way the province's civil laws were structured at the time, I was substantially correct. Nice.

You also made reference in your OP to rape and how fear of that still dominates the thinking and attitudes towards men on the part of many women. Sad and true - no argument from me on that score. Overlooked here, however, is how often a man is accused of rape after consensual sex with a woman because she suddenly changed her mind, felt guilt or remorse, or didn't want to acknowledge her responsibility in making the decision to have said sex in the first place. And while this is often a "he said, she said" type of scenario, judicial sympathies in such ambiguous cases typically veer in favor of the female because they are generally still perceived to be the weaker sex and more meriting of protection.

At other times, the motive for a false rape accusation might simply be to "get" the man as an act of revenge due to previous slights or perceived transgressions on his part. That is a very powerful weapon for a woman to wield, and even if it is ultimately proven to be untrue, the aftermath of that mere accusation against such a man will follow him like a bad smell for the rest of his life, and in the same way in which we brand pedophiles and sex offenders as incorrigibly untrustworthy once so indicted.

And just to be clear, I am not talking here about the kind of forcible rape that takes place at gun-point or knife-point, or as practiced in places such as the Congo where it is used as a weapon of terror, intimidation, and subjugation by insurgent groups - that is a whole different matter. I am referring strictly to the type of rape resulting from a relationship (or potential relationship) between two people that has gone terribly wrong.

If I have offended some M-t-F transsexual members here by seeming to trivialize their struggles for acceptance and integration into society as women, then I apologize as it was unintentional since I have not lived that experience directly myself even though I consider myself to be transgendered and have been out in the world as a "part-time" woman on numerous occasions. But then again, I did issue that caveat and a mea culpa disclaimer to that effect at the beginning of my last post and prior to making my comments.

And if I did mention previously that one of the added benefits of transitioning was the opportunity to join the "winning team" (as it were), then that as said in jest and with tongue firmly in cheek. In no way would I ever discount the agony and soul-searching that accompanies a decision of that magnitude, and all the implications which that entails on so many other levels.

But I will say this - in the 5 years that I have been out and about as "Leslie" I have been treated with a degree of respect, consideration, and yes - kindness - by both men and women that I rarely experience in male mode. And having worked in the Corporate world at the senior managerial level for many years, I have run across (and have had the misfortune to report to) more than my fair share of macho jerks and associated sociopaths...and the higher the position, the bigger the @sshole. At the same time, I have seen my female counterparts treated with a degree of deference, civility - and yes - forgiveness when their performance was sub-standard by the same jerks that I could only envy, and can only explain by way of sexual politics that worked in their favor. In other words, pretty much the same way that I am treated nowadays as "Leslie".

Sorry, but I don't buy the premise of perpetual female subservience and subjugation by men that we have been brainwashed into believing by the feminists - not in the Western world, anyway. Women may have been disadvantaged in some ways in the past and still are in some areas, but they also come out on top in others. It all evens out in the long run, and neither sex holds the patent on unfettered privilege.

But right now, the women are pulling ahead of the men in terms of securing their futures and their place in society, and the myth of victimhood being synonymous with womanhood is starting to wear a bit thin...

[LeaP]

But right now, the women are pulling ahead of the men in terms of securing their futures and their place in society, and the myth of victimhood being synonymous with womanhood is starting to wear a bit thin...

One of my favorite employee survey stories comes out of a management level review of feedback. My manager (male), who thought of himself as liberal and enlightened, expressed some surprise and dismay at the ratings and comments on gender issues at the company. At one point he said, "I can't imagine where this happens. It must be somewhere else in the company. I know it doesn't happen in my department!"

Every woman in the room burst out laughing!

He protested.

They burst out laughing again!

*****

I see little new in your latest post, by the way. I believe Kathryn addressed the substance of your original quite nicely.

I will respond to two points specifically, though.

On the subject of rape, what is evident to me is that what many women regard as consensual and what many men do are very different things. Although I am certain that there are people who deliberately abuse the system, I believe the way things are working today corrects a long-standing issue.

I disagree with you on the child support situation. Or I do from the standpoint of the states in which I have had dealings. In my case, the numbers were the numbers were the numbers. It didn't matter whether it was my income, my ex's income or anything else - the numbers were crunched, allocated, and that was that. This approach is also designed to address long-standing problems. Single/divorced mothers - and therefore their children - are among the worst off families in the country, even with child support laws the way they are. The law doesn't give a rat's ass how bad off you are (male or female). What it tries to address is that there's enough to cash in the custodial parent's household to ensure that the kid has a decent life. And I have known women who have had to pay through the teeth, too.

[Kathryn Martin]

Leslie, this debate really is hijacking this thread, because these issues are really not at the center of what I said in my original post but rather incidental to it. I will debate you on this because I think it is very important. I suggest we open a new thread and discuss it there, what do you say?

[Leslie Langford]

Sounds good to me, Kathryn - it was never my intention to hijack your thread, but I also don't espouse the theory of perpetual victimhood that women still like present nowadays despite all of the strides that they have made in recent years - not only in achieving equality in many areas, but even preferential treatment in some others.

That said, of course they still have a long way to go to achieve those goals in certain societies where fundamentalist religious views prevail and are enforced by intractable, irrational zealots of the male persuasion who are determined to hang on to their historical positions of privilege and dominance at all costs in traditionally patriarchal societies. But in the Western world these days, virtually every door is open to women (especially the well-educated ones), and they are limited in the degree to which they want to succeed in whatever endeavour they choose primarily by their own self-imposed choices.

As a bruised survivor of the Corporate world with its relentless in-fighting, back-stabbing, office politics, one-upmanship and constant run-ins with macho-jock alpha males, I'm still waiting to reap the benefits of my alleged male privilege. In the meantime, I always saw my female counterparts being treated with a degree of deference, respect, and civility - and dare I say it? - even a higher degree of understanding and "forgiveness" when they under-performed than I ever experienced.

Not just that, but women in business invariably have a "sisterhood" of like-minded females to draw upon for mentoring and support. Among the males, cut-throat competition and a dog-eat-dog, "winner takes all" mentality is often the order of the day. Needless to say, being semi-retired, I don't miss that dysfunctional environment one little bit.

[Sandra]

Enough thread closed