So, you want to Pass as a Woman!

[Barbara_Jean]

This is mainly aimed at beginners and those who are afraid to walk out of their bedrooms.
I have been reading a lot of threads and posts concerning “Passing” and it is interesting to note, some people say it’s not important to them, a LOT say they could never pass or they don’t pass, but everyone is so excited when they get “Ma’mmed” or called a “Lady” or “Miss” So I have been thinking about writing this thread for a very long time in a effort to help those who don’t think they can pass, or are afraid to go out because they don’t pass.
I wish when I had started that there was a series of threads like this that I could have read where everything is in one place. Hair, Makeup, Body Shaping, Nails, Clothes etc. That is why I decided to write this.
I have gone out many times and have passed 100% each time. The “Acid Test” was the week of Thanksgiving when I went into a ladies room. It was PACKED with women waiting for a stall. There must have been 12 to 15 women in there, but I just stood in line and waited my turn. When I was done, I stood at the mirror to fix my hair and makeup. I NEVER got a Glance or a look from anyone. Women were coming in and going out and no one treated me any differently than Any Other Woman in there! I Knew I had done it! I passed the Test! It felt Wonderful!!
I have many people call me “Mamm” and “Miss” when I want to try something on and ask an clerk where to go, they always show me to the ladies fitting rooms and never question me.
So I thought I would share how I accomplished this.
First of all let’s change “Pass” to “Accepted as a Woman”
Now, let me say that I KNOW I am NOT the only one on this forum that goes out and is “Accepted as a Woman 100%”!! The reason I know this is that the way I accomplished my “Acceptance” is by Reading and Paying Attention to all the Advice listed by other members!!
We need to ask ourselves, “Why do we want to be accepted as a woman?”
The main reason is that we don’t want to have people stare, or laugh at us! We want to go about our business and be treated as any other woman. There is a great deal of fear and a mindset that “all eyes are on me! Kids will point and laugh at me!!” But the truth is that this probably will not happen. There are several things you can do to prepare yourself and insure that it does not which is the whole point of my writing these threads.
So if you too want to be Accepted as an actual Woman, I will share some of the things I have learned.
Now this would be a Very Long post if I shared everything at the same time, so I have decided to break this up in to several threads, each on a different topic. I will be sharing what I have learned from this forum and I will be mentioning a few people that have helped me, and they may not have known they did! I will mention Karen Hutton right now.
You see I almost quit right after I started. I was so discouraged with the way I looked I wrote a post saying that I quit and was selling my stuff. Karen wrote a reply that made me change my mind. She explained that many of the girls I saw on the forum have been doing this a lot longer and have practiced. So, I did sell some of my things, that didn’t work for me, but I kept some and started again. It took me Three Years of practice to get where I am now, but it was worth every minute and paid off thousands of times over. So Thanks Karen!
Here is what I learned and what you need to do to be Truly Accepted as a Woman.
I will start here with the number one, which is Size.

I read a lot of posts that say “I’m way too big to pass” or “I am too tall” Well let me tell you that I am a “Plus Size” woman myself! My dress size is 24W.
I have a GG Friend that knows about Barbara and she has helped me a lot. I first told her that I didn’t think I could really look like a girl due to my size and she said “Girls come in All Sizes”!! So I started looking around and guess what? She was RIGHT!! There are All Sizes of Girls out there, just look around you. Take a look at the women’s clothes sizing and you will see sizes from Extra Small Petite, to 40W Plus and bigger!! I personally have Dated a couple girls that were MUCH Bigger than I am, in fact at lease one was TWICE my size!
The point is that girls Really Do come in assorted sizes. Do we all want to look like Movie and Television Stars? Supermodels? Of COURSE we do!! But the reality is 99.9% of us will never look that way and you know what? 99.9999% of Real Women out in the world don’t look that way either!!!!
You need to “do your homework” and you can start by Observing women around you and out in the world. Go to the Grocery Store, the Mall, Walmart, and LOOK at the women around you (Discreetly of course!). Pay attention to their Sizes, what they are wearing and how they carry themselves. You will see that YOU can do that too!! So don’t be so hard on yourself. Size really Doesn’t Matter. What does matter is that You WANT to be Accepted as a Woman, to “Blend In” with the women you see every day.
Well, this has turned out to be a pretty long first post, so I will continue with the next subject this in the next Thread.

[Crissy Kay]

NO, as I am only dressing for myself.

[Beverley Sims]

Barbara, a very good opening to what I hope is a long and interesting thread.
I do not necessarily pass in a police lineup, but with an air of confidence and holding my head up I can tilt it back and walk away with others wondering?
Who the heck is she?

[Ashlyn Brooke]

Very nice intro, I'm looking forward to your next posts.

[Trishpdxcd2]

Yes...I would like to hear more as well..

[DaniG]

Looking forward to your next posts. How will we recognize them? Will you add a subject prefix like "Acceptance: Makeup" or something?

[Kate Simmons]

Personally, I just like looking nice, any passing notwithstanding.:)

[Tammy Nowakowski]

looking forward to your next one

[Michelle55]

I do not necessarily pass in a police lineup, but with an air of confidence and holding my head up I can tilt it back and walk away with others wondering?

I've not been in a police lineup, but I did have the dreaded traffic stop. I was stopped for a headlight out. The officer asked for license and registration and took them back to his car as usual. A few minutes later the officer came back to my car and put his flashlight to my face, down to my license, back to my face, etc. at least three times. He returned to his car and wrote out a warning ticket for the headlight. He came back to the car and gave me my license, registration, and the ticket and told me to have a safe drive home Mamm.

I guess my confidence along with it being dark was enough for the officer to "see a woman in the car" until my license told him differently.

It was very scary when it happened, but a great confidence builder after the fact.

[LSL_Dee]

Thank you Barbara for getting the ball rolling on a topic that has everyone's interest to some degree.

The thing i love most about this post is the terminology issue. You are SOOOOOOO right. I do not want to pass. I want to be ACCEPTED as a woman. Passing to me in this context means you simply blend in to the environment with out a thought. Acceptance of me as Dee is what I crave and I truly think whate every girl here truly wants and craves. Specially the girls who are hiding their true self from their SO. If they are honest with themslves they desparately want to share their inner woman with their SO. I know I did and do. You cannot imagine the relief and joy I felt when my wife said i should be open about being Dee. Go out in the world as her, Go to work as her. Date as her, But just please promise me you will still be my husband. I got the acceptance i craved and as a result I am whole.

The simple answer for me is YES.

I have also experienced the coming of age of the crowded ladies room experience.
A few years ago I have a waredrobe malfunction and had to excuse myself to the lady's room and Symphony Hall in Phoenix, during intermission. I was how do you say it, TERRIFIED I would be read. But all my fears evaporated after came, I saw and conquered my mishap while surrounded by other women who were simply taking care of their business.

There are two things that help me while i am out and about as Dee. First is dress the part. I am a chubby 50 something woman. People will accept me as one if I dress like one. People probaly won't accept me if i dress like a bar fly or a street walker. Not that dressing like that is bad. It is just not what I am looking for. (Unless I am feeling trashing and going somewhere that would fit in, but that is a different story)

The second thing is attitude. If I present the attitude that I AM a mature woman then people with think I AM a mature woman. So go into the lady's room like you are supposed to be there (because you are) do what ladies do and you will be ACCEPTED as one.

I have rambled on enough for now. I need to get back to work

Dee

[Jenniferathome]

...
I have gone out many times and have passed 100% each time. The “Acid Test” .... I NEVER got a Glance or a look from anyone. ....

Barbara Jean, I have to call you out on this. No, you have not passed 100%. And, you didn't "notice" anyone glancing. The public at large, be they in a mall, restaurant or bathroom, don't look up. And if they do, they may think your a TS or in transition or a "Pat" and while there are questions, THEY don't care enough to react. Now, the upshot is, because you have confidence, and act like you belong, you are comfortable and that comfort give comfort to others around you. THAT'S the message.

[suzy1]

I have gone out many times and have passed 100% each time .

I don’t want to be unkind here Barbara but to pass 100% each time is amazing and hard to believe.

I am sure meny others here would love to see some pictures of you.
You have a lot to say here so help us to appreciate just how good you are at transforming yourself.

This sounds like I am saying maybe you are being dishonest but I am not, really. I am just very interested and curious.:)

[Karren H]

I don’t want to be unkind here Barbara but to pass 100% each time is amazing and hard to believe.

I am sure meny others here would love to see some pictures of you.
You have a lot to say here so help us to appreciate just how good you are at transforming yourself.

This sounds like I am saying maybe you are being dishonest but I am not, really. I am just very interested and curious.:)

Actually you don't mind being unkind at all..... Suzy.... and it is kind of fun!... lol. plus you are so much kinder at being unkind that I would have been!

[Marleena]

Actually you don't mind being unkind at all..... Suzy.... and it is kind of fun!... lol. plus you are so much kinder at being unkind that I would have been!

How does she do it Karren? She's even kinda kind being unkind!:D

Oh crap it's another passing thread!! I'll leave now before I'm unkind too. I hate passing threads!

[Karren H]

How does she do it Karren? She's even kinda kind being unkind!:D

Oh crap it's another passing thread!! I'll leave now before I'm unkind too. I hate passing threads!

It Takes talent to be kindly unkind without being disingenuous! :D

[Stephanie47]

Hey, it's another passing thread encouraging the concept of "one size fits all" mentality. I hate seeing these because I am an old fart like Barbara Jean. I had to go back and read her introductory remarks and she states she was in kintergarten in the 1950's. That's about my age, maybe a bit younger than I. I also had to check at various size charts to see what sixe 24w entails. I know from trying to buy dresses that I am a Misses size 18/20. The 'w' usually confers shortness, which is the total opposite of my six foot zero.

I know I do not pass, and, will never pass due to the physical attributes the Creator gave me. Sure, I've been out for strolls in the evening, but, I am not trying to pass. I'm just trying to feel the breeze against my my stocking encased legs. I'm sure, if I went to a venue totally accepting of cross dressers, I would not encounter hostility. Go into a woman's restroom? All hell would break lose.

Now, if you're five foot four and slender, you can probably not be noticed and probably confuse any observer that "Is that a young woman, or is that a young guy?" I see many size 24w women who are in their late fifties or early sixties. Not too many guys are trying to pickup these women at the mall. By the sheer dimensions of their bodies many male attributes are going to be hidden by body mass. That Adam's apple is diminished, if not gone. Unlike mine which is a give away. Size of hands? Big hands with long fingers? Misses sizes usually top out at five foot seven. Then talls take over. The 'w' sizes usually are a lot shorter. It's a lot easier to hide as an older short woman than an older tall person.

I dress for the serenity it brings me. That means I do not want to heighten my stress levels by drawing undo attention, especially from non accepting bias persons. Over the years I've become so accustomed to being en femme that my female mannerisms when attired are fairly good.

Don't judge your ability to pass by looking in the mirror. Your mind is going to see exactly what it wants to see. Take pictures of yourself. The imagine may not be the same. Mine isn't male or female.

I'm not trying to throw a damper on the youngsters going out and blending or passing. It's not as simple as it seems. It's not a 'ONE SIZE FITS ALL' answer. I really hate these threads making it sound like it's so easy, when the poster does not have to bear the consequences when it blows up in someone's face.

[AngelaSmith]

I cannot wait for your next thread! :-)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

pls be advised all passing threads starters are hereby required to post pictures..

the only rule should be enjoy yourself as best you can..

[Marleena]

pls be advised all passing threads starters are hereby required to post pictures..

the only rule should be enjoy yourself as best you can..


Here, here! *looks for this post is worthless without pictures sign*:)

[Tracii G]

I think the posting a pic to prove the claim is a good idea.
Not a doctored photo shopped pic either just straight up off the cam.
When I was a big girl I passed much better from what my friends that know I CD told me.
Size makes no difference in passing.

[Barbara_Jean]

WOW, I really must have Struck a Nerve!!!!!
First, to all who read my post and appreciated the concept and reason, I thank you and for you I will continue with further threads!
Now, let me address a few of the other remarks.
I figured I would get some reactions as I did when I wrote that I “Passed 100%” It seems that I have offended many of you, and for that I wish to sincerely apologize. I did not mean to do this, or to infer in ANY Way that I am Better that anyone else!! In fact, I did say that I am Sure I am NOT the only one who Passes 100%!! I KNOW that many of you DO!
Now, perhaps I should not have used the “100%” phrase. I probably should have used a phrase I learned many years ago which is “Perception, is 99% Reality” Meaning that MY Perception is that I was Accepted 100% as a woman and that is the whole point of my thread. And also as I did state, I have ALL of YOU to thank for that! I learned these things from this forum and I am just trying to condense what I learned from YOU, so others can benefit.
Jennifer, you are absolutely right that I have NO Idea WHAT was going through the minds of people that see me. I know people did glance at me, and maybe I was read. When I was in the crowded ladies room, I did see some of the women glancing at me, but no one reacted as they would have if a man was in the women’s restroom.
As I have said, I do have a GG Friend that has gone out with me. SHE is the one who has told me that I Pass as a Woman. She has purposely hung back from me just to watch people. In fact, we have gone in places separately, most recently a small doughnut shop with about a dozen people in it. I ordered my doughnuts then left the shop and she ordered some just to see if people said anything. She told me no one had any reaction. I know this does not prove anything, but again it is my perception.
Now, yes I have not posted any pictures of myself yet. I do not have any yet! I do not have a camera that works, However, I DO Plan on posting some pictures very soon. There is an event I am planning on attending and my GG Friend will be taking pictures of me. I FULLY intend to post them, but ONLY in the Photo Gallery. I do not want to change my avatar.
From some of the comments I have read though, I feel that no matter what pictures I do post, they probably will be judged harshly now. But again, Perception is 99% reality.
So, again I want to apologize for any remarks I have made that offended ANYONE. My only purpose with all of this is to try and help.
One thing is for sure, I got a lot of people talking!!!
By the way, my future threads on this subject will be titled, “Accepted As A Woman Part #”
Barbara

[Stevie]

Ok I feel it would be easier for a plus size person to pass because most people if not everyone has this Hollywood idea on how an woman is supposed to look on the outside. Where are your eyes wondering to when you see a petite and a plus size person walking down the street.
If you pass that's wonderful. I'm glad for you, but there are some manly features that are very hard to hide.

[Paula T]

I will follow this post for sure as I am one of the gurls that think they pass pretty well. But I don't have eyes in the back of my head.:)

[Marleena]

@ Barbara I wasn't offended at all. The "do I pass?" threads are very common here and I've grown to hate them.:) We do agree that only a select few people here actually pass in the real world. Blending and enjoying ourselves seems to be the best thing we can hope for. By all means continue as it may help others though.

[I Am Paula]

In the many years that I've been going out, especially in downtown Toronto, Miami, N.Y. in gay bars and drag clubs, girls shopping trips, meeting online girls for coffee etc. I've probably met two hundred girls. From drag queens to novice CDs, post ops and french maids with beards, l've met all kinds. They have all shared two things in common.

None of them passed the 'we just had coffee and chatted, and I had NO idea you weren't a natal woman' test.

They were ALL out and about, and enjoying the real world, presenting as they cared to.

Passing is a wonderful goal, best left as part of your hobby. If 100% passing is the only way you'll get out the front door...enjoy the view from your window.-Celeste

[Jenniferathome]

In the many years that I've been going out, especially in downtown Toronto, Miami, N.Y. in gay bars and drag clubs, girls shopping trips, meeting online girls for coffee etc. I've probably met two hundred girls. From drag queens to novice CDs, post ops and french maids with beards, l've met all kinds. They have all shared two things in common.

None of them passed the 'we just had coffee and chatted, and I had NO idea you weren't a natal woman' test.

They were ALL out and about, and enjoying the real world, presenting as they cared to.

Passing is a wonderful goal, best left as part of your hobby. If 100% passing is the only way you'll get out the front door...enjoy the view from your window.-Celeste

What a great answer! I'm onboard with that.

[NathalieX66]

Do I love being a woman? Sure I do.

Being treated as a normal person when in pubic is all I want, even if I'm not fooling anybody.

[Diana Bain]

I think many of us believe we are women...in one shape form or another. "Passing" is over used. You transform yourself from a man to a woman...why?...because it's your nature.

[ReineD]

Barbara Jean, I have to call you out on this. No, you have not passed 100%. And, you didn't "notice" anyone glancing. The public at large, be they in a mall, restaurant or bathroom, don't look up. And if they do, they may think your a TS or in transition or a "Pat" and while there are questions, THEY don't care enough to react. Now, the upshot is, because you have confidence, and act like you belong, you are comfortable and that comfort give comfort to others around you. THAT'S the message.


They have all shared two things in common.

None of them passed the 'we just had coffee and chatted, and I had NO idea you weren't a natal woman' test.

They were ALL out and about, and enjoying the real world, presenting as they cared to.

Passing is a wonderful goal, best left as part of your hobby. If 100% passing is the only way you'll get out the front door...enjoy the view from your window.-Celeste



Don't judge your ability to pass by looking in the mirror. Your mind is going to see exactly what it wants to see. Take pictures of yourself. The imagine may not be the same. Mine isn't male or female.

I'm not trying to throw a damper on the youngsters going out and blending or passing. It's not as simple as it seems. It's not a 'ONE SIZE FITS ALL' answer. I really hate these threads making it sound like it's so easy, when the poster does not have to bear the consequences when it blows up in someone's face.

I can't agree more with these comments. I've only met one TS who passed perfectly. She was petite and she transitioned at a very young age.

My SO and I go out A LOT, all over the place. To describe her, her hands and feet are smaller than mine, she has her own long curly mid back hair (no wig), she has no beard shadow (laser), and she is only 1" or so taller than me when we go out, because I wear 4" heels. She does not have an overly male forehead, brow, nose, or jaw. People who pass us by do not notice anything. People that we interact directly with, such as the people who serve us, do notice. They likely think that my SO is a TS and transitioning. They are all very nice to us, and they do not ask questions. :)

When we sit in restaurants, most people don't give us a second glance, but the people who do notice us tend to stare a little longer. I've noticed a questioning look in their eyes. Also, people tend to remember us, even if we haven't been to a place for 6 months. I can't help but think it is because they don't see too many transpersons, and so they just remember. Most everyone is friendly though. This is because we are at arm's length in their lives, but that's OK. :)

It's a mistake to take an absence of comments, snickers, insults, etc, as passing. Most people don't care enough to say anything.

[AllieSF]

Hey Barbara,

You were just the recipient of the reality police, which most of us are one time or another here. What probably got so much attention is the passing comment. As Marleena has said they are a regular topic here. She hates those type of threads and I really do not care as long as the thread and posts are interesting. As you can see Marleena replied more than once here, so there was some interest on her part. The main issue and most here believe it, is that a very rare few of us can really pass 100%. Some of us get close and others will not get close. That doesn't mean that they all shouldn't try a few outings to see if that is something that they can enjoy doing.

People that pass normally are very young, petite and have the natural looks that they seem to pass, at least in the pics here, without any need for makeup. The others that I notice pass or blend extremely well are the plus sized women. I think that most people who think that they pass really do not. They probably blend in very well from their looks, mannerisms and confidence. As already said, very few people will actually make a scene when they ID a CD. They glance, sneak a peak and may make a comment to a friend, just as they might do when they see a non-CD, someone who may be very attractive, butt ugly or very different. The fact that they are basically not interested when they see a CD is good for all of us and another reason to help overcome one's own fear of trying to go out.

Please keep your thread going, I think that we are all waiting for the next installments.

[ReineD]

People that pass normally are very young, petite and have the natural looks that they seem to pass, at least in the pics here, without any need for makeup. The others that I notice pass or blend extremely well are the plus sized women.

And old age too. There is less of a gap between men's and women's looks in their 70s as there is in middle age. Men lose testosterone, women lose estrogen, and gravity has the same effect on both their faces.

[PaulaQ]

When we sit in restaurants, most people don't give us a second glance, but the people who do notice us tend to stare a little longer. I've noticed a questioning look in their eyes. Also, people tend to remember us, even if we haven't been to a place for 6 months. I can't help but think it is because they don't see too many transpersons, and so they just remember.

Yeah, this seems completely plausible to me. I can't speak about "passing" in public yet, because I haven't tried, but I've been handicapped my whole life, and the reason they notice and remember you is because you are different. People notice me, and some stare at me, and always have. I'm remembered almost every place I go after a single visit. Kids tend to be the most open about it. I don't really notice it much anymore.

The real trick is to make yourself not notice that others are noticing you. You do that - and it really doesn't matter.

I would suspect this applies to any situation where you appear to be "different" in public. It's easier too - you only have to fool one person - yourself.

[AmyGaleRT]

Having just returned from a short excursion out en femme, I feel qualified to comment here with regard to my own experience.

I have no idea if I passed or not as I walked through the supermarket, or at the drive-through where the guy behind the window asked me, "How you doin'?" and I responded "I'm fine, thank you!" with a smile in my enthusiastic Amy-voice. For all I know, I could have been read "bigger than s***," as my fiancee would put it. But nobody treated me oddly; I was greeted at the store by one clerk, but no one accosted me or anything. In sum, I experienced my shopping trip as a GG might have experienced it. So I'm happy. :)

This is not to say I wasn't trying to pass; I was dressed in a fairly casual manner (blue denim dress, cardigan for the chill, boots) and was wearing the makeup I wore on camera earlier. I don't think I ever got more than cursory inspection; everyone there probably saw what they expected to see, a lady out shopping, and just paid it no mind.

So, did I "pass"? I don't really care; I think I handled myself well and that my confidence in being a lady in public is improving. I'm happy. :D

- Amy

[ReineD]

Glad you had a good time, Amy! :)


In sum, I experienced my shopping trip as a GG might have experienced it.

I'm curious, do you feel treated differently when you're dressed than when you're not, by people like the guy behind the window or the cashier at the supermarket? For example, had you been in guy mode, would the window guy still have said, "How you doing"?

I asked my SO once and she didn't know how to explain it ... if she felt that she was being treated differently while dressed as a woman, compared to guy mode.

The reason I ask is, I've often been in line for things ... coffee at Starbucks for example. And I've not noticed the people at the counters treating male and female customers differently. But, maybe there are subtle differences that I cannot see?

[AmyGaleRT]

. And I've not noticed the people at the counters treating male and female customers differently. But, maybe there are subtle differences that I cannot see?

I'm not sure, Reine. When I went through that drive-through at Good Times, there was a lady that took my order, for two drinks. When I got to the actual window, she took my money, but the other guy, the one that said "How you doin'?", handed me one of the drinks before she handed me the other. Either it was a slow night, or perhaps I was getting some extra attention. But I didn't feel like it was in a "bad" way; I felt good about it, in fact. (I suppose they could have been collapsing in hysterics before I'd got the car as much as fifty feet away...but I've no reason to believe that.) The only disappointing thing was that I didn't get "ma'amed" like the last time I was at a drive-through. Now that would really have made my day. :)

I didn't pass too close to the supermarket cashier, either; as I walked in, I walked straight through the self-checkout area towards the freezers and only barely heard him greet me. Then, when I came back out, I used self-checkout. So no clue either way there.

- Amy

[vivianann]

You are singing my song, You are right, we dont have to pass 100% I know I dont, but it does not matter if you know how to carry yourself as a woman, and being confident goes along ways toward passing as a woman and blending in when out and about. I am plus sized girl myself, and I am very comfortable in my own skin as a plus sized woman.

[suzy1]

So, again I want to apologize for any remarks I have made that offended ANYONE. My only purpose with all of this is to try and help.


Not offended Barbara just a bit sceptical that’s all.:)

[ReineD]

But I didn't feel like it was in a "bad" way; I felt good about it, in fact. (I suppose they could have been collapsing in hysterics before I'd got the car as much as fifty feet away...but I've no reason to believe that.) The only disappointing thing was that I didn't get "ma'amed" like the last time I was at a drive-through. Now that would really have made my day. :)


No, no, I'm not suggesting they might have laughed or you didn't pass. I think many of CDers pass in different situations. You were in your car. It just gets tricky when having a conversation with people up close though ... or at least this has been my SO's experience.

Back to my question ... members often say they love to go out and be treated as women. I don't switch to a different gender, so I only know one way that people treat me. I was wondering if there is a difference based on presentation, for those who do switch back and forth.

So, other than being called "Ma'am" and perhaps having a door opened for you while you're dressed, is there any way that you (or anyone else) perceive being treated or spoken to that is different than when you are presenting as a male?


.... or is it more the knowledge that you got away with it? :)

[Lynn Marie]

I'm sorry Barbara Jean, but the excuse of "not having a camera" for not showing a picture of yourself even just as an avatar is pretty lame. As hard as it is for me to lend any creadance to the comments of those unwilling to show me their transformation skills, it's even harder when they are teaching me how to "pass".

[Xrys]

my friend finnaly coaxed me into foing out with him to a bar for karioki night. he introduced me to some of his friends from work. i kept to myself for most of the night. later he told me that they had no idea i was a dude til i said something. unfortunately, they were aall bears . kinda goes with a grain of salt cuz they dont spemd much time looking at women, but i guess it counts for something. closest ive come to passing yet. i do think i will wait on taking passing advice until i see some pictures. passing for a heavier shorter older person is different than passing as a 6'3 28 yearold with a size 8 waist. i also want to point out that, as unintentional as it may have been, your passing claims did come off a bit smug at first. i will gobble up any aditional info i can that i might be able to put to use so i will be folowing this series.

[Asp]

Very intrigued.

[Michelle (Oz)]

WOW, I really must have Struck a Nerve!!!!!
First, to all who read my post and appreciated the concept and reason, I thank you and for you I will continue with further threads!
Now, let me address a few of the other remarks.
I figured I would get some reactions as I did when I wrote that I “Passed 100%” It seems that I have offended many of you, and for that I wish to sincerely apologize. I did not mean to do this, or to infer in ANY Way that I am Better that anyone else!! In fact, I did say that I am Sure I am NOT the only one who Passes 100%!! I KNOW that many of you DO!


I'm not offended at all by what your views are of yourself. I know that I don't pass to observant folk but I am treated like a lady.

What troubles me is the impact on CDers who would like to venture out but will see passing as important. Most CDers are very realistic about whether or not they pass.

For a CDer to accept that they will be seen by some as a man in a skirt is empowering.


Also, people tend to remember us, even if we haven't been to a place for 6 months. I can't help but think it is because they don't see too many transpersons, and so they just remember. Most everyone is friendly though. This is because we are at arm's length in their lives, but that's OK. :)

You touched on something very interesting here Reine that unfortunately may be lost in the tail end of this thread.

It is quite amazing the number of times that I have returned to a cafe, shop, etc and been greeted warmly and genuinely on my return. Maybe its by standing out as different. Maybe its being open about being male that they don't feel deceived. Maybe its just that they are good people persons. But it happens so regularly.


I'm curious, do you feel treated differently when you're dressed than when you're not,

My answer based on a number of recent experiences is 'absolutely'. Example, I have started doing the Friday shopping dressed the past 3 weeks. I don't go to the same supermarket (too close to home) but I do go to the same fruit market. Now, I don't pass and my voice is still male. Two out of three times I have been asked at the check out whether I would like the box carried to the car. I have never been asked that in years and years of going to the shop as a male.

And yes Reine - doors opened, men standing aside to let me in or out of lifts first, and 'this lady was before me' comments. I do sometimes wonder if they only knew what lies beneath the femaleness would they be so polite. I have an untested theory that they still would be as polite. Subconsciously men are reacting to the presentation, how I perceive myself and how I act.

[ReineD]

Maybe its by standing out as different. Maybe its being open about being male that they don't feel deceived. Maybe its just that they are good people persons. But it happens so regularly.

I've never asked any of the people who have only seen my SO dressed why they accept us, but I have some theories. I'm putting myself in their shoes and trying to imagine for a moment that I had never met a TS/TG/CD.

First, I think the idea that men who present as women are *shock* "perverted" has gone the way of the dinosaur for many people. Our society is much more aware of gender and sexual diversity than it was even a short generation ago. A large chunk of people now support gay marriage! And so people for the most part don't place the severe moral judgments on diversity like they used to. It is no longer seen purely as an abhorrence or a moral deficiency (in many circles). Also, business owners are grateful for the business, there is no reason why they should refuse to deal with a TG just because of the cross-gender expression, and it is good business to be friendly to all customers.

Second, because there is more of a "live and let live" attitude, people don't feel personally threatened when they interact directly with a TG. Also strangers see the TG at the periphery of their lives - most know they will not run into this person again - so it's a lot easier to have a "whatever" attitude and to maybe make a small mental note and then move on, if they are among the people who still judge this unfavorably. But, should the same people's lives mesh more closely with the TG, they might not want to get closer: for example a young CD is treated wonderfully by a SA, but she wouldn't want to develop the relationship further should he ask her for a date. And this is why I think that employers are squeamish about hiring a person who crossdresses in front of clients, it would be difficult for a male teacher to get a job if he wanted to crossdress in the classroom ... or CDs and their wives are reluctant to tell all their friends and acquaintances about the CDing. There is still a degree of bias about it when it touches people more closely than arm's length, even though it is not thought of in as severe terms as it was a generation ago.

Last, I also think it's a novelty for some people and they are interested in learning more because of this, to satisfy their curiosity. I often wonder if, at the dinner table that night, the young waitress who was so nice to us would tell others that she "saw that TG person again today".

:2c:

[Michelle (Oz)]

I'm sure that many of those with whom I interact would talk to others about me. Fact of life with anyone or anything considered interesting.

One of my wife's sons is gay and she strongly supports gay marriage yet me wanting to CD was abhorrent. This validates (if a sample of one can do that) your theory that there is a line between positive reactions from dispassionate people and the abhorrence of those with whom we are emotionally connected.

The latter won't change so we are fortunate to CD at a time of increasing levels of tolerance and positive interaction within the community.

[Sam-antha]

So many comments, so many ideas from so many people. I agree with some while others will agree about others. for me, it was, for years and years a case of going out and practising. that is the only way to discover your unobserved faults. Make sure there are no glaring errors and go out. It is the going out that is enjoyable, not the passing. It is the being out and being accepted for what you appear to be. Surely after sixty years of doing it I might just be correct.
~Samm

[busker]

First of all let’s change “Pass” to “Accepted as a Woman”
“Why do we want to be accepted as a woman?”


Barbara-Jean, I would only quibble with the use of the word WOMAN. Any person here is not going to be accepted as a woman, pure and simple. Because they are not and any woman that would be fooled would likely need very thick glasses (maybe with one or two exceptions).

I think it would be better (IMHO) to say that a person was accepted if they were dressed in the manner of a woman who was dressed as you are at that time.
It is a bit of theater and if the illusion is good enough even in bright light that a passer by would not hesitate to "see" you as a female, then you have pulled it off.
Whatever feminine sensibilities that CDs have are there whether they pass or not, dress or not. Frankly, I think that the CD cause is likely to go nowhere due to the difference in simply crossdressing and trying to emulate a woman with all the attendant gear. Societal wise, I think just blending some women's clothing as a male is going to go father that any theatrical notions.

This is a little snippet from a conversation between David Brooks and Gail from the NYT which I think could easily have meaning for crossdressers.

David: This leads to a general rule. If you want to win respect for your formerly excluded group, try to be more culturally conservative than anybody else. This is something the great and underappreciated A. Philip Randolph understood. You can be politically radical if you are culturally conservative and still get a hearing. The radicals of the 1960s got this one wrong.
Gail: That may be part of a larger rule, which is that people have to be able to identify with the excluded folks. The greatest warriors for gay marriage have been the average gay people who came out to their families and friends and communities. I grew up in one of the most socially conservative neighborhoods in Ohio, and my parents were traditional Catholics. But in her old age, my mother got her home health care from a guy who was gay, who was wonderful to her. Before she died, she rode a float in the Cincinnati Gay Pride Parade.

[jillian_nphilly]

i love this post!

[AmyGaleRT]

So, other than being called "Ma'am" and perhaps having a door opened for you while you're dressed, is there any way that you (or anyone else) perceive being treated or spoken to that is different than when you are presenting as a male? ... or is it more the knowledge that you got away with it? :)

Having only gotten out of the car as Amy three times (and one of those was at the GIC, which doesn't count as much), I plead "insufficient data," Reine. It may take a few more times out as Amy (or a few dozen!) before I can say different. :)

- Amy

[Tiffbear]

Subbed for more content.

*gets popcorn*

[RenneB]

I must say that this is one of the more interesting "pass" threads. For those of us that are out and about, I think I can say it's not about passing, it's about the IDC 'tude. (I Don't Care Attitude). I don't mean I don't care how I look, I mean I don't care what others say or do. I mean how to people with a disfigurement get out and about? They've developed a thick skin and just head on out.

Now as for blending, I try to raise the bar when I'm out and about. Way, and I mean way too many GGs around here just throw on a t-shirt, sweat pants, flip flops and head on out to the store. Not me. I go for a skirt or dress a nice pair of heels and try to look good. Not Sunday Church good, but nice. So, no I don't blend I just try to fit in.

So far, it's been pretty successful. I dress all the time, 'cept for work and go out full hair/makeup on the weekends and haven't looked back. I love GNOs with other CDrs and have even enjoyed a day light shopping trip or two....

For me, in the end, I try my best to look my best and then all I have to do is 'pass' the front door.......

Renne.....

[aalynn88]

The public at large, be they in a mall, restaurant or bathroom, don't look up. And if they do, they may think your a TS or in transition or a "Pat" and while there are questions, THEY don't care enough to react. Now, the upshot is, because you have confidence, and act like you belong, you are comfortable and that comfort give comfort to others around you. THAT'S the message.

This is so true! I know I don't always pass. When I first started going out, I used to ask people, cashiers, store customers, anybody, "did you know I was a guy before I started talking to you?" Most answered yes but many of them said I looked really good! I know I look good, better than I do as a man so I have that confidence. Now its like I don't really care what people may or may not think. Its just awesome to go out as a woman! If I go out with that happy, carefree atittude, I think people sense that and know they can't possibly shoot me down!

[ReineD]

This is so true! I know I don't always pass. When I first started going out, I used to ask people, cashiers, store customers, anybody, "did you know I was a guy before I started talking to you?" Most answered yes but many of them said I looked really good!

Wow, that's very brave and up-front, good for you!!

But weren't you disappointed that people could read you? I thought half the fun was the ability to pass in order to be treated like a girl and I was under the impression that being read is the worst, most disappointing fate. So if they know you are a man in a dress, does this not negate the experience and take away from your enjoyment?

Thanks for answering, I'm really curious about this.

[Rogina B]

It just gets tricky when having a conversation with people up close though ... or at least this has been my SO's experience.

Back to my question ... I was wondering if there is a difference based on presentation, for those who do switch back and forth.
:) I get treated better at Home Depot for sure..lol Last weekend my wife ,daughter and myself were there selecting tile for my wife's "home improvement " project that she is doing.As three girls,we got the undivided attention attention of two guys that even admitted to enjoying helping women get what they came after. lol And the "guys" at the autoparts store always ask me if I know how to add whatever fluid I am buying..lol I don't see em doing that for the boys!

[Michelle (Oz)]

But weren't you disappointed that people could read you? I thought half the fun was the ability to pass in order to be treated like a girl and I was under the impression that being read is the worst, most disappointing fate. So if they know you are a man in a dress, does this not negate the experience and take away from your enjoyment?
It sure is nice to be treated like a lady. Validates the effort in presentation and practice. It doesn't mean that we pass or even need to pass though, just that we receive respect for effort in presentation and a willingness to accept that is how we perceive ourselves so people willingly 'play the game'.

If I wasn't prepared to be seen as a man in a dress, then I could never speak and therefore couldn't interact. How boring! It has taken a while to get to this level of comfort.

[Paula_56]

Great post well written I know it took a long time and was heart felt IMHO I feel some people are being a bit harsh

[ReineD]

It has taken a while to get to this level of comfort.

Exactly the same for my SO. For the longest time she was sort of in the background while out, not saying much, trying to not draw attention to herself, but also never knowing whether she "passed as a GG" or not. I suspect that many times, like others in this thread, she took an absence of remarks or notice as "passing". But when she decided to go to the next step and have human interactions, she had to come to terms with the fact that people knew that she was not a GG. In a way, she had to redefine a few things for herself but then I'm guessing (I don't live in her skin), that she became satisfied with others respecting her gender presentation.

So I look at it as a shift from fantasy to reality, but a happy reality for my SO nonetheless. The people who interact with her (and us) are friendly.

[Rogina B]

So I look at it as a shift from fantasy to reality, but a happy reality for my SO nonetheless. The people who interact with her (and us) are friendly.
I have yet to see angry mobs with torches and pitchforks.It has been my experience that some people are in awe of how "gutsy" we are,and others are amazed at our presentation..Some of the ladies at UU church tell me that they enjoy seeing what I am wearing each week. Nothing comes without effort and getting comfortable in the mainstream world takes confidence and occasionally a thick skin!

[aalynn88]

Wow, that's very brave and up-front, good for you!!

But weren't you disappointed that people could read you? I thought half the fun was the ability to pass in order to be treated like a girl and I was under the impression that being read is the worst, most disappointing fate. So if they know you are a man in a dress, does this not negate the experience and take away from your enjoyment?.

It's definately a little disappointing for me knowing some can read me but just as long as I don't stick out like a sore thumb, I'm happy!! I know when I get up to the register, I'm gonna have to talk and Im instantly busted but when I'm just walking up and down the aisle, some people think I'm a woman. I believe this to be so because some of the people I asked said they thought I was a woman. I remember one lady said, "I couldn't tell. You look like about a 37 yr. old woman to me." which was REALLY nice because I'm acually 47. So, in answer to your question, no it doesn't really take much away from the enjoyment because the opinions of the folks that say I pass outweigh the ones who say I don't pass. Also, I feel that my 5 o clock moustache shadow is the main thing thats giving me away, aside from my voice of course, but after my 4 remaining laser treatments, well, I'm really hopeing thats no longer much of a problem.

[Sophie Yang]

I'm curious, do you feel treated differently when you're dressed than when you're not

Reine,

It doesn't happen often, but there have been times when I have been treated differently while dressed. Here are four examples:

Photo 1 is across from Noah's earlier in the morning.
I was in San Francisco for their Pride Day Parade last year and was out and about. I went to Noah's for a bagel in the early morning and the place was already packed. I got my bagel and went to one of the outside dining area tables to enjoy the morning sunshine and my bagel. This guy comes from the busy sidewalk through the outside dining area and starts flirting with me for about five minutes looking for a phone number and a date. I showed him my female wedding ringand sent him on his way.

Photo 2 photographer taking picture.
Later in the day, I was having my picture taken with one of the reigning the T-Girl pageant queens. The picture is blurry and does not do her justice. One cannot make out any features, so hopefully the moderators will allow the picture. After wards the photographer in the picture came up to me and we chatted. He finally told me that he knew I was a guy and found me more attractive and interesting than the pageant queen. Really? He too wanted a date. Again very flattering, but in a different way. Maybe because he was a photographer he has a keener eye or during our conversation he read me.

After the parade, I was walking around and this older gentleman was cleaning up the debris in front of one of the buildings. As I approached him, he waved me over and commented how cute I looked. We talked a bit and then I was on my way. Photo 3 is near where the older guy was cleaning up.

Did I pass in these three instances. Maybe 1 or 2 out of the 3 instances. I will never really know for sure. It didn't really matter. They were all positive pleasant interactions. Had a wonderful time during the pre and post Parade activities.

When in San Francisco I did a lot of walking around alone. Late one evening I was heading off to dinner at the Elephant Castle and a pan handler stopped me and asked for some money. I had not seen this person before. We did a little chit-chat and then I was on my way. I ate at the Elephant Castle maybe once a week and knew most of the waitresses by sight if not by name. Maybe forty minutes later the pan handler shows up in the restaurant bothering the customers when he notices me sitting there. He made a slight scene about knowing me. The manager quickly showed up soon after he entered the restaurant, but checked to see if I knew him and before escorting him outside. The waitresses kept coming over to tell me he was still waiting outside. They were all very protective of me. I realized how security conscious all the waitresses were. They even suggested that I go out the back door. He eventually left and I went out the front door and walked back home.

Anyway in guy mode, no guy has ever flirted with me, let alone ask me for a date. Never have any girls looked out for my safety in guy mode either.

[ReineD]

Anyway in guy mode, no guy has ever flirted with me, let alone ask me for a date. Never have any girls looked out for my safety in guy mode either.
I totally understand loving to be flirted with if you're interested in men. Thanks for your response! :)

[Debbie Johnson]

Hi Rogina,

Interesting that you should mention the UU church. I go to two different ones--one in boy mode and the other in girl mode. The second one is way more fun and rewarding. What has been really new and interesting is that many of the women have taken me under their wing with introductions, sharing their space and letting me into their world. So far only two men have engaged in conversation but I still feel like a visiting rock star and warmly welcomed. What a treat to be recognized and valued for who we really are!

[Michelle (Oz)]

What has been really new and interesting is that many of the women have taken me under their wing with introductions, sharing their space and letting me into their world. So far only two men have engaged in conversation but I still feel like a visiting rock star and warmly welcomed. What a treat to be recognized and valued for who we really are!

This level of positive recognition and engagement is an interesting phenomenen way better than just tolerating our presence. Going back to Reine's post #53, it is this that elevates the enjoyment of the experience of being out and about beyond any success in passing.

[Rogina B]

I completely agree with Debbie and Michelle..And those feelings "dovetail"into my thread about"Living the Life most of the time" After all,if it wasn't such a positive experience,I would never do it! And I love being "special"...it is another thing like"pretty" that we never get to experience as boys..

[docrobbysherry]

But, this is such a ridiculous thread!:sad:

Started by Barbara Jean who sounds like she means well. 3 years ago she was going to quit because of her "looks". But now, claims to pass 100% of the time? And, posts ZERO pics!?:eek:

Then, she's going to help us all to pass like she does. So far, the only thing I've learned is that I need to double my dress size!?

Finally, I'm told that what I really want is NOT to, "pass", but, "--to be accepted as a woman"? Like, there's a difference?:straightface:

Last add: Yes, I've been, "Mamm"ed by restaurant personnel. Neither they nor I rolled our eyes. But, there's was zero chance of them mistaking me for a female!:tongueout

[ReineD]

What has been really new and interesting is that many of the women have taken me under their wing with introductions, sharing their space and letting me into their world. So far only two men have engaged in conversation but I still feel like a visiting rock star and warmly welcomed. What a treat to be recognized and valued for who we really are!

This level of positive recognition and engagement is an interesting phenomenen way better than just tolerating our presence. Going back to Reine's post #53, it is this that elevates the enjoyment of the experience of being out and about beyond any success in passing.

Ok, I know we've gone back and forth a little in this thread, but there is one thing that I truly don't get and these quotes touch on it quite well.

When you (a collective you, not just the people quoted) are dressed as women and talk to other women who respect your presentation (who don't slam you for it), you feel rather elated for being included in the fold, in the women's circle so to speak, even if they know that you are men presenting as women. I take it then, that being accepted as a woman is the ultimate goal and it is what causes the warmest internal fuzzies.

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

(... although this doesn't apply for those of you who want to be flirted with by men ... then you really need to present as a woman.)

But for the rest of you, what is it that makes you feel that presenting as a woman makes people treat you any differently? Please don't get me wrong. I understand that you feel better about yourselves when you dress, you like the way that you look better when you're dressed. And dressing makes you feel more comfortable, more at ease with yourselves. But doesn't it just really boil down to wanting to feel feminine regardless of the conversations you have, and the clothes are a pathway for feeling this way?

.. because as mentioned, if it was about being included in women's conversations, honestly you could accomplish this dressed as a male if you wanted to. I can't tell you how many intimate conversations I've had with various men over the course of my life. Women don't just talk to each other, they talk to men too, honest! :)

Here is an example: A few years ago my SO in guy mode and I were at a party at someone's house. No one there knew that my SO is trans. The men were in the basement watching a sports game, and the women were in the kitchen playing a silly truth or dare board game or something (can't really remember). My SO was the only male sitting smack dab in the middle of some 6-8 women, enjoying himself fully! None of us curtailed our actions or our words, just because there was a guy in the room. He was included right into all the fun, laughter, and girl talk, the man jokes, everything! And boy, were we having fun ... one of those evenings where the laughter was loud enough to wake up the kids. And my SO was laughing just as hard and appreciating all of it just like the rest of us! There was no thought that he was a stranger in our midst, because women are just so darned inclusive! We don't care if the people who want to join us are men or women.

Some of you might say that at some deeper level all the women at the table might have felt my SO's female energy, but honestly that's not it. Any one of the men in the basement could have joined us and the conversation and all around glee would have been just the same!

Please don't take any of this as any form of criticism. Many of you know me, I'm just trying to get down to basics.

I appreciate those of you who will share your thoughts about this, because it does puzzle me that you feel you are treated differently when you wear certain clothes (except men flirting with you), ... although I do understand wearing the clothes to feel feminine and I do support this. :hugs:

[Michelle (Oz)]

When you (a collective you, not just the people quoted) are dressed as women and talk to other women who respect your presentation (who don't slam you for it), you feel rather elated for being included in the fold, in the women's circle so to speak, even if they know that you are men presenting as women. I take it then, that being accepted as a woman is the ultimate goal and it is what causes the warmest internal fuzzies.

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

Hard to explain Reine and perhaps this fits into the category of needing to experience to understand. It is not about participating in women's group conversations (only rarely do that either femme or homme). The special recognition and friendship comes from men as well as women. It is not just being treated like a lady. It is more being treated as a special person - friendly, different, vulnerable - I don't know what it is but in no way do I receive the same reactions when in male mode.

[daarleane]

Hard to explain Reine and perhaps this fits into the category of needing to experience to understand. It is not about participating in women's group conversations (only rarely do that either femme or homme). The special recognition and friendship comes from men as well as women. It is not just being treated like a lady. It is more being treated as a special person - friendly, different, vulnerable - I don't know what it is but in no way do I receive the same reactions when in male mode.

Men whether we like it or not carry a physical presence of action while females may carry a presence of softness and love. Think motherhood. Men greet each other with a handshake, if I remember correctly this dates back to the sword carrying days when two men would greet each other by grasping the others sword hand. Females great each other by embracing. The rules are just different.

[Diane Edwards]

I doubt I could pass 100% of the time, at least as I am today. It takes a lot of time and effort. It was so much easier for me to do so 20-25 years ago, and even then I had to be meticulous about my appearance and voice and I didn't always pull it off. It helps that I've always been petite, even for a male - 5'5'' and between 120 and 135 pounds. (I suppose that's because I've been a runner since my early teens so I've always been rather slim, with a few exceptions.)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

its projection...and its a good kind of projection..

as a transsexual, i am sure i do it too...

if "on the inside" you feel a certain way, as in "im a woman" or "im feel like a woman"..and you are treated well, then you feel it on the inside and its rewarding...its a virtuous circle and i could imagine for crossdressers it incredibly validating to how they feel at that moment, and its not really important that if they were in guy mode they'd be treated the same way..

[bridget thronton]

Not sure if it matters that I pass as long as people are kind in their treatment of me regardless of how I dress. I do prefer conversation with women to watching sports with the boys.

[NCAmazon]

Ok, I know we've gone back and forth a little in this thread, but there is one thing that I truly don't get and these quotes touch on it quite well.

When you (a collective you, not just the people quoted) are dressed as women and talk to other women who respect your presentation (who don't slam you for it), you feel rather elated for being included in the fold, in the women's circle so to speak, even if they know that you are men presenting as women. I take it then, that being accepted as a woman is the ultimate goal and it is what causes the warmest internal fuzzies.

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.


Also if you are fortunate enough to be able to blend well with your presentation. People won't dare try and challenge your gender, they will take you for what you are. Studies have shown that challenging or mis-gendering is one of the worst things people want to get wrong.

As stated before getting into a long conversation up close with someone is a whole another ball game.

I was at a recent Trans conference and while sitting in the lobby I overheard another group of people who were there for a different event. They were trying to guess if some of the CDs were GGs or TS etc. One guy in the group said flat out "I'm not even going there, I'm not even gonna risk challenging someone's gender".



(... although this doesn't apply for those of you who want to be flirted with by men ... then you really need to present as a woman.)

But for the rest of you, what is it that makes you feel that presenting as a woman makes people treat you any differently? Please don't get me wrong. I understand that you feel better about yourselves when you dress, you like the way that you look better when you're dressed. And dressing makes you feel more comfortable, more at ease with yourselves. But doesn't it just really boil down to wanting to feel feminine regardless of the conversations you have, and the clothes are a pathway for feeling this way?

.. because as mentioned, if it was about being included in women's conversations, honestly you could accomplish this dressed as a male if you wanted to. I can't tell you how many intimate conversations I've had with various men over the course of my life. Women don't just talk to each other, they talk to men too, honest! :)

Here is an example: A few years ago my SO in guy mode and I were at a party at someone's house. No one there knew that my SO is trans. The men were in the basement watching a sports game, and the women were in the kitchen playing a silly truth or dare board game or something (can't really remember). My SO was the only male sitting smack dab in the middle of some 6-8 women, enjoying himself fully! None of us curtailed our actions or our words, just because there was a guy in the room. He was included right into all the fun, laughter, and girl talk, the man jokes, everything! And boy, were we having fun ... one of those evenings where the laughter was loud enough to wake up the kids. And my SO was laughing just as hard and appreciating all of it just like the rest of us! There was no thought that he was a stranger in our midst, because women are just so darned inclusive! We don't care if the people who want to join us are men or women.

Some of you might say that at some deeper level all the women at the table might have felt my SO's female energy, but honestly that's not it. Any one of the men in the basement could have joined us and the conversation and all around glee would have been just the same!

Please don't take any of this as any form of criticism. Many of you know me, I'm just trying to get down to basics.

I appreciate those of you who will share your thoughts about this, because it does puzzle me that you feel you are treated differently when you wear certain clothes (except men flirting with you), ... although I do understand wearing the clothes to feel feminine and I do support this. :hugs:

Sometimes its hard to get! Well I've noticed that if I'm browsing for women's clothes in a department store as a guy, the other women in the section just basically ignore me and move around me etc.

When I'm dressed full femme, I get these nice smiles from other women as in the we are both enjoying ourselves and the choices at the store smiles. Also when looking at dresses and blouses, other gals comment on how nice a garment looks to me. So its kinda of a insider type of vibe you get from other women.

Also when walking around in a place like the mall, obviously sometimes I get looks from other women, could be one of several reasons including getting read, but when I look back at them they give me a friendly smile back. As a guy this typically wouldn't happen. So all of this feels nice...

[Rogina B]

When you (a collective you, not just the people quoted) are dressed as women and talk to other women who respect your presentation (who don't slam you for it), you feel rather elated for being included in the fold, in the women's circle so to speak, even if they know that you are men presenting as women. I take it then, that being accepted as a woman is the ultimate goal and it is what causes the warmest internal fuzzies.

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

(... although this doesn't apply for those of you who want to be flirted with by men ... then you really need to present as a woman.)


.. Women don't just talk to each other, they talk to men too, honest

Well in some settings[like after UU church service]people stand around,have a snack,and enjoy talking to others.I talk to anyone that wishes to converse...And I find that women love to include me in some of their discussions and accept me at face value. The men are divided it seems.Some want to engage in a gender discussion and others there want to ask me about my commercial boat projects.Honestly,I would not like to talk about "what I do" seven days a week! So,I gravitate toward the women's discussions[often in the kitchen..lol]. Last night while at the restaurant bar across the street,I had a guy[a NY lawyer with his wife] spill his guts to me while I ate my Salmon salad,to the point of tears! I don't believe he ever would have done that to me if I was in boy mode! lol

[Taylor186]

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

That's not what I've been told. A few years ago I joined an adult ballet class at the local Arts Center. It was billed as for beginners and returning dancers. The class enrollment was six returning dancers, all females, and one beginner, me. I soon found out that returning to dance is like returning to bicycling -- it doesn't take long to get back up to speed. As a beginner, I was the obvious boat anchor. At the start of the third class I mentioned to one woman that it would be my last night as I felt I was holding everyone else up. At the break the most experienced dancer pulled me aside and implored that I stay. She was quite open in saying that the dynamics of the room change when there is a male dancer there. I stayed and in the end was glad I did. I later read the exact sentiments on a ballet forum -- ie, class dynamics are different when at least one male is present in a group of females.

So at best I might say "it depends." I think women will react differently depending on who the one man is in their midst. A type-A extrovert male will get a different reaction than an introvert male. A straight male will get a different reaction that a gay male. A married male will get a different reaction than a single male. But in all cases the dynamics, subtly or not-so, are different than if the group was all women.

[suzy1]

So this is what I don't understand: I don't know if you realize this, but if you were in guy mode, the only guy in the room with all these women, they'd treat you just the same! They'd talk to you about the same topics, they'd be nice to you in the same way, they'd like you just as much, they wouldn't think you were odd for enjoying a conversation with a group of women. In other words, fundamentally you don't need to present as a woman in order to be included in woman's conversations.

.. because as mentioned, if it was about being included in women's conversations, honestly you could accomplish this dressed as a male if you wanted to. I can't tell you how many intimate conversations I've had with various men over the course of my life. Women don't just talk to each other, they talk to men too, honest! :)

:

Sorry Reine but you are applying far too much logic and common sense to this debate.

Not everyone likes to hear the truth because it takes away what the want to believe.

Its human nature.

[ReineD]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on all of this.

It's true that we all experience things differently. I'm not a CD so I can't possibly know how you all feel. I can only say how I and other women that I know treat the men who enjoy being with us, the way that my SO was treated that night, and other times when there was just one man in a group of women. This is why it is difficult for me to understand why a person should be treated differently depending on the way they present.

But, in all fairness I tend to not see gendered differences between men and women so much, unless the personality types are extreme for example comparing the girliest girly-girl to the macho-est macho man. I've always had good male and female friends who were not at either end of the extremes, and who were all easy to talk to about anything.


I think women will react differently depending on who the one man is in their midst. A type-A extrovert male will get a different reaction than an introvert male. A straight male will get a different reaction that a gay male. A married male will get a different reaction than a single male. But in all cases the dynamics, subtly or not-so, are different than if the group was all women.

Yes, I can see this. And there are also men who do feel so relaxed around women that the conversation flows just as it would if there was no man present. But other men I'm sure make some GGs feel as they must keep their guard up.


Men whether we like it or not carry a physical presence of action while females may carry a presence of softness and love. … Men greet each other with a handshake, …. Females great each other by embracing. The rules are just different.

Yes, I totally agree that you would feel differently among a group of men as you would among a group of women. I do too! :p


And I find that women love to include me in some of their discussions and accept me at face value. The men are divided it seems.Some want to engage in a gender discussion and others there want to ask me about my commercial boat projects.

Right, I agree with this too … women are all inclusive to everyone who wants to be with them (CD, non-CD, gay, doesn't matter), whereas groups of men do seem to be more guarded with other men, GGs, and also CDs. When my SO and I go out, the women are so much nicer and more relaxed around us than the men are.

That's what I was saying before. We include everyone who wants to be with us, in other words, we don't look at all men as a threat or a predator. There are lots of men who are friendly and who don't give off those vibes, and so we can and do let our hair down when they're around. :)

[Ruby John]

This is amazing. My wife who is 100% women has not passed at least 3 times while out with a couple of CDs. We walked into a place that had a drag show and the MC told her she was doing a great job. Later he came back and asked if she was the real thing. One time she was sitting with me and one other CD in a restaurant and some guy came over to us and said we were not fooling anybody. He knew we were all guys! I still kid her about being clocked. She always looks like a very Fem woman. Nobody passes 100% LOL Good Luck Ruby