When is enough ENOUGH

[Kathryn Martin]

When is enough ENOUGH?

I a recent post Reine qualified her remarks by saying that what she had to say did not apply to stealth post-op women.

For me this brought home a question I have asked myself increasingly intensely after surgery: When is enough enough?

I no longer suffer from transsexualism, I am integrated as a woman socially and professionally by men and women, there is no testosterone left in my body, except what is produced in adrenal glands and liver like any other woman, and I am now on hormone replacement therapy like any other woman my age. You see, as recently mentioned in a thread of mine, integration is becoming more and more the rule, and any prior “knowledge” about who I was is no longer reflected in who I am. Viscerally women and men identify me as a woman, even those who know my past.

One great misunderstanding that exist is what stealth actually means. We generally believe it means flying under the radar, that we don’t want to draw attention to ourselves as “odd” women to be no longer marked. In this context we talk about leaving everything behind moving to a new place, new job and new circumstance.

But there is an entirely different kind of stealth. A friend of mine recently wrote on her blog how she has caught herself many times casually commenting on her transition just to give a background to something she really wanted to say. So not even as a content in itself did she say these things but rather as a collateral, causing every time collateral damage to herself. Stealth is when you stop talking about it because it is no longer relevant.

I know these moments. They have happened to me and every time I hate myself for saying it, essentially torpedoing my self. It is as if I need to excuse myself for my self! I am learning slowly to shut up already about my medical history. Because that is all it is, a medical history. And now for me enough is enough.

[Jorja]

Those that knew you before will always know you as a trans woman. That is something we just cannot get around. To anyone else I would hope you started yesterday considering yourself simply as a woman.

[Michelle.M]

What I am talking about is when can I consider myself simply as a woman.

Whenever you're ready to do so!

[Rachelakld]

Hi Kathryn,
Personnally, I don't want to know if a person is pre-op or past-op, that they would tell me would mean they are looking for either an excuse, acceptance or in your friends case - leverage.
People never need an excuse or acceptance to be themselves.

I think you are wise not to chat about the change in general conversation, although some people will be very interested to hear you life story, and others will be interested in the change, there is a time and place for such discussions.

[Anne Elizabeth]

I think we owe no one anything more than common human respect and are owed no more than that in return. However, as I have experienced in life is that people generally want those that they meet and/or know something about themselves and their life. They want people to know what is going on in their life and I think they get a feeling of importance in their life and about themselves by letting people know about them. I think it is common humanity and when I transition I want to be stealth to those I never knew and don't want people to question if I am a male of female because I have been a female most of my life. I unfortunately have been saddled with the wrong body. I have also been guilty of giving too much information about myself to people I never knew so I will have to learn to keep my mouth shut.

[melissaK]

Tucking these thoughts of yours away for my future use someday when my feelings might match.

[ReineD]

Kathryn, I put it the way I did, because a lot of different people read this section. I wanted to somehow differentiate between women who were born with male physical characteristics that needed correction, and people who want to become women.

By stealth, I meant the people in the woman's life would never guess her history without being told, including surgeries. I know that you are not stealth, you are just you. "Stealth" has been a term used rather frequently in this forum section to indicate a post-op whom others have no hint that she was ever anything other than a birth XY female. So if you can tell me how I might have described what I was trying to describe without using the word "stealth", please do so.

Sorry if my choice of terms offended you. :sad:

Edit -
I know what you are saying though. You are saying that the correct attitude to have, is to let people know (when it comes up or if necessary) that the surgery was a correction of a birth defect (which it was), however you (and others like you) had not fallen for the male socialization that you were subjected to, in fact had never had a male identity or history, and perhaps had been surrounded by family and friends who, since birth, knew that you had a birth defect that would eventually be corrected.

I can certainly see the value in proceeding in this manner for the rare few who feel as if you do, but does this apply to everyone who transitions or thinks of transitioning? Can everyone say that they never, not once, ever thought they were male or were socialized as males? And if transition is done in place, what to do about the women who have a chunk of people in their lives who see them as transitioners and not women? These are the people who are not "stealth" and who might encounter difficulties finding partners among the groups of people identified in the first post in the other thread.

[noeleena]

Hi,

does it only have to apply to trans people where ever they may be in thier life. there are a number of issues that apply to those who are not trans, yet have to have surgerys or die, if they dont get surgery's & thats from at birth or just after.

And later on say age 14 on can live as male or female i dont need to say more you know me well enough, we can be counted as ether male or female . we are traped yet are needed to say are we one or the other, though i think things are changeing for the better to accomidate this difference,

as some are older we talk about whats happened in our lives why should we hide our past,

As an = ie = one joins the Womens Institute or Federation .& you get asked .. And were did you work or who for, the women of cause expects oh i was at the sewing school then went to work for sewer's co-op. no i was in the building trade. ....oh.....spent most of my life on building sites, 46 years.

or have you any children well yes just i could not have them because, im .......& no womb...... Jos had our three kids . Jos who's Jos , well .......life story.

I expect people to ask me & they do though most know me now , well have for many years here in Waimate some 15 years,

Even though im female nothing is going to change to allow this kid to never be seen other wise as im seen now, unless i have major facial surgery's & that wont happen. So what about just plan old acceptance get known be known for who one is & let it go , in a crowd you will be seen by those close to you thats at face level most others wont or by your self you are seen face on till you walk past,

Ill just hide behind my camara , untill i have to ask people to move closer together to get a nice shot. damm i had to talk. & be seen theres no hideing my socalled cover is blown . & who cares . none i know of. its all about liveing so live the life, & love it.

...noeleena...

[Nicole Erin]

Most of the people I interact with - the fact that I am TS is usually the last thing they are interested in or bring up. It may come up but it is such a small factor that it just doesn't matter.

Just start concentrating on other things and the TS thing probably won't come up much, if at all.

I hate that word "stealth" it always makes me think of a TS with arms out like superman, flying around the pentagon or whatever. Yes I know, silly.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

it sounds like a constructive positive place to be for you Kathryn.

i'm in a great place with my female life..... i generally do not disclose my past i'm way past getting "enough" out of my transition...i'm just living life now..and I don't view self disclosure about my past damaging at all..i dont look to disclose but dont worry about it either.

I have deep relationships over many years with many people...i still have most of those relationships..

the idea that its a birth defect doesnt really resonate with me, i am not disagreeing with it as a factual matter, it just doesn't seem important to me..i never looked at it that way..

....its just a fact of life...i lived my life..shit happened...this is the shit that happened...that's all disclosure means to me...

i find value in relating to people both as a "just a woman" and as a transsexual woman...transition is inherently imperfect.. what i went through matters ... whether i like it or not, when i'm sitting at lunch with two women and we are chatting, i don't share their common experience...that is a huge part of human interaction and communication...they assume i share their experience!! and so there is always a gap, a little distance.....i can choose to change the nature of that distance whenever i want...

so far i've told two people that only knew me as Kaitlyn.. i did it for my own reasons (including one person was gonna find out because it turns out her kids know my kids)
and it was no big deal at all..more than anything i was flattered that it never occured to them

Perhaps i'm missing out on something...but I am pragmatic by nature

[docrobbysherry]

I always wondered how easy that would be? To finally accept yourself as A FEMALE. After spending half your life learning to accept yourself as a trans woman?

I would think it's one thing to have others completely accept u. And, quite another to completely accept yourself?

[KellyJameson]

Part of the problem is that gender is wrapped up in our history.

It has been my experience that being in public such as an airport or coffee shop where you are waiting, a woman will strike up a conversation with another woman she does not know, where men are less likely to do this.

Always there is that general talk that leads to questions like "Do you have any children?" "Are you married?" ect....

I have become very good at deflecting questions but everytime I do, it keeps me living uneasy in my own life.

Men live with a certain measure of public autonomy that affords them privacy.

What about future events like high school reunions?

Than there is the problem of six degrees of separation where that one person who knows your history invites you to a function such as a wedding and you are now standing in a group of strangers getting to know each other feeling that tick of fear that the conversation may go down a path you do not want it to.

Even your knowledge or lack of knowledge about subjects that are common interests between the genders can result in questions.

I have a gg friend who is an auto mechanic and she is often viewed as if she has two heads because of her knowledge of cars. People admire this about her but it still stikes them as a novelty that results in many questions.

The longer you have lived before transitioning the greater your history.

Gender does define how we live to a large degree so gender creates our history.

Often before we accept who we are there is a period of pretending to be who and what we are not and I wonder if I have traded one form of dishonesty for another.

I do not see how stealth would be possible unless you cut away the whole life you lived previously.

Day to day and month to month may not be a problem but I would think there will always be that unexpected and unanticipated moment and encounter with another.

Human beings are naturally curious and most love to gossip and we certainly qualify as a topic in many peoples minds.

I have a long medical histroy since birth but I do not want to keep explaining it as my history that has brought me to this moment in time because it feels like I'm making excuses or justifying my decisions.

There must be a way to create a history that explains everything without explaining it, while staying true and honoring the past.

[kellycan27]

I always wondered how easy that would be? To finally accept yourself as A FEMALE. After spending half your life learning to accept yourself as a trans woman?

I would think it's one thing to have others completely accept u. And, quite another to completely accept yourself?

Leave out the word "trans" it's just a descriptive for the sake of discussion, definition, or trying to explain us to those who are unfamiliar or uneducated. I am transsexual by definition, but I don't recall ever feeling like I was "trans"anything. I was a girl who suffered at the hands of someone's else's definition. I think I would safe in saying that those of us who go through the rigors of transition pretty much accept ourselves.. I would think that transition would be the ultimate test of " self acceptance" although comfort levels may vary greatly due to many factors that are mainly due to outside influences, socialization or what have you. Read the stories Shery.. Self acceptance isn't as great an issue as outside acceptance IMO. Most of the issues that I see discussed on these boards has way more to do with outside acceptance... family, friends, jobs, society etc. people accept the fact that they are trans... It's the acceptance of others that scares the s**t out of them.

[Kathryn Martin]

Oh my, it seems that my words carried an emotional overtone which in some ways I did not intend when I wrote this. Firstly, Reine, your choice of words did not at all offend in any way. I just found that the greatest threat to my being who I am is me. I live in stealth even though I transitioned in place because, as I tried to explain increasingly history is rendered irrelevant in the eyes of my social and professional circle. I am viscerally identified as a woman and then I don't keep my mouth shut. It's generally called "shooting yourself in the foot".:D

I also are learning that stealth happens on it's own. And if I learn to keep my mouth firmly shut in my transition, and let people react to me instead of creating a reaction I am just fine.

That was what I was failing to say above.

[ameliabee]

But there is an entirely different kind of stealth. A friend of mine recently wrote on her blog how she has caught herself many times casually commenting on her transition just to give a background to something she really wanted to say. So not even as a content in itself did she say these things but rather as a collateral, causing every time collateral damage to herself. Stealth is when you stop talking about it because it is no longer relevant.

I know these moments. They have happened to me and every time I hate myself for saying it, essentially torpedoing my self. It is as if I need to excuse myself for my self! I am learning slowly to shut up already about my medical history. Because that is all it is, a medical history. And now for me enough is enough.

Yeah. Sometimes it's a bit of a challenge - so much of me wants to bring up my history, but I just don't because there's no place for it and it's largely irrelevant. I'm hoping I can quit the habit before I up and move halfway around the country. Perchance SRS will help with that? And, you know, around good people, it largely doesn't matter, but once the genie's out you can't put it back in.

[ReineD]

That was what I was failing to say above.

So one day, we'll have a big party at my house for everyone here. :D

We'll all of us be in the same room, and then we can talk freely, knowing that our tone of voice and body language will convey the subtleties that sometimes words do not.

:hugs:

[Rogina B]

I'll bring some liquor to that party! Just to loosen things up and get people talking! lol

[GirlieAmanda]

I like Nicole's description of stealth. Really, what am I an F-117, a secret helicopter? I no longer like this term. It really indicates that you are in hiding, again. I have worked too hard to have to go back into hiding. I am just me. At my last job from May 2012 to Nov, I was trying to be ultra stealth. I drove myself nuts. It's too much of a burden to carry. From what people tell me, I have nothing to worry about. They look at me, they see me. I was at Keystone and TG people were asking me if I was trans. I guess I do OK. However, I refuse to give in to this notion that you have to go into deep stealth so you can integrate into society. In my opinion, and this may be strong, we will always be different. We will always be...not a GG. We are women for sure, but we will ALWAYS be different. I will always have to modulate my voice, I will always have to take estrogen pills, I will always have a male bone structure, I will always have a prostate even after surgery someday. I will always not have ovaries, a uterus, fallopian tubes. I will always have 40 years of living as a male under my belt. Those things will not go away. I am just trying to be Me. My brain is female. That is true. Even if I have every trans surgery under the sun, my body will not be a genetic female. Why should I fight that? I would rather embrace who I am. I'm just about to start a new job here soon. I won't be making any announcments that I am Trans. But, I will not be stressing about it either. I will just be who I am and if someone doesn't like it, well, then they have the problem. Being me feels great, being me feels free.

[Marleena]

Self acceptance isn't as great an issue as outside acceptance IMO. Most of the issues that I see discussed on these boards has way more to do with outside acceptance... family, friends, jobs, society etc. people accept the fact that they are trans... It's the acceptance of others that scares the s**t out of them.

I'll try this again. Kelly nailed it for me. I accept me but I know most of my family members and some friends won't because they simply don't get it or can't accept it. I've lived the lie for way too long and that compounds the issue for them. How can I suddenly (to them) want to be a woman, right?

Being preop I can't really add much to this thread but it sure looks like Amanda just nailed it. The longer along in life you've gone and fought and denied who you are just seems to make it that much more difficult. SRS is the holy grail for a TS person and the point where you are finally the woman you were meant to be. It's not instantaneous though because there is much to be learned and unlearned. You can't change the fact you were born TS, it will always be there. You will need to learn to be the new woman you've become and not need to feel you have to explain your past to anybody new. The ideal situation would be to start your life anew in a place where nobody knows your past. Unfortunately that is not realistic for most of us. As always just my own thoughts...

[Jennifer Marie P.]

I dont consider myself trans anymore the past is done Im a woman now.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

if its unrealistic to get srs or transition at home, its no more realistic to do it somewhere else..marleena i do not think dumping your entire past life and everything that goes with is an ideal situation at all...
people that are not transitioned rarely have a good internal understanding of what permanently living as a woman is all about..its not about finally being able to shop or get your hair done..its much messier ..its basic blocking and tackling.....constantly learning and figuring out how you are going to live..its building up moments that drive home your own sense of self so that your gender identity is no longer like a tumor in your head..sure some of it is new and fun, but that's a sidebar..
and same goes for having srs or not... its not a complaint or issue..its just the way it is...

accepting yourself is a neccessary condition for having a good quality of life... when i responded to kathryn my two cents was she is in a good place even tho there are moments of "transness" that bother her..... my response included the idea that those moments reflect a pragmatic reality and accepting those moments rather than fighting them as a problem can also be a good thing ..at least for me..

when you havent transitioned you are forever in transness...accepting THAT in and of itself i guess is a good thing if circumstances are tough...but your life is about a totally different thing than those that transitioned..

the problems, the issues, the feelings, the rewards, everything is different

....its the difference between figuring out how to live with your gender dysphoria and living without it..

[Lynnmorgan451]

The acceptance of others. Definitely agree there. That's the hard part. I am accepting of me and what I am to the point where I don't desire SRS, but just to hone my femininity and be this in-between outwardly feminine unisex person. I was raised as a boy in the middle of two sisters. Even though one might point directly to that one simple fact about me and call it the root of my problem, I know this is not the case. Or do I? Hmm...am I content with being a woman with extra equipment? But transition as we all know doesn't happen over night and I am in the very early stage. The very first version of "stealth mode" . Where I live full time as a man but have come to terms with what I am and my intentions to change. Maybe next year I will be posting about stage two stealth, where I am actually living part time as a woman! One can only hope! xoxo

[Marleena]

@ Kaitlyn, yep I get your POV. For me a change of scenery would be ideal. The city I live in has to be the most transphobic city in Canada. Not an excuse, but true. Most of the TG/TS girls from this craphole have left and moved 100 miles from here where there is a thriving TS community. My TS support group is there and can confirm my thoughts on this city as well as my therapist, it's a dangerous place and you won't see us on the streets here.

Your reply is a reminder why I constantly edit and delete my replies in this section. I am only beginning to deal with this whereas some of you have already dealt with it. I respect your thoughts.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i do alot of editing but there's no need to delete...stick by what you said because its about YOU!!

information is power ..if you bring up things and feel you get different answers thats a good thing!

all i'm really saying is there is no "ideal" especially in the beginning...some here have reached an ideal place in their lives but it takes many years, lots of good choices and usually some suffering/sacrifice...

when your entire life is about drastic actions just to feel authentic and alive, its worth being open minded about what the end game is (again at least for me)...

i would have never ever ever thought i'd be where i'm at right now.. its so different than the notions i had in my head years ago...being so totally different and yet so totally the same really surprised me and i learned to be delighted with it..

[kellycan27]

WOW! Amanda
Your assessment of stealth makes it sound like an attempt to defraud or some kind of denial. You said that you are starting a new job and that you don't plan to disclose... Isn't this akin to being stealth? Isn't this by your definition " hiding " also?
Where is the difference? Living stealth doesn't mean that one is denying their past .. It means that they just keep their mouth shut for the most part. I live a pretty stealthy life, but I don't care if someone knows. I just Don't go around broadcasting the fact. You mention that people say that " you'll do ok". Ok at what? Hiding your male bone structure ? Your lack of female body parts? Living your life as an out and proud transsexual?
One may not need to go " deep stealth" in order to integrate into society, but the better one can do it.. the easier it's going
to be. One day when you have progressed you may find that backing against the wall with balled fists and chest pounding with a " screw anybody that doesn't like it" attitude is rather pointless.... Nobody really gives a shit. You're just fighting yourself and keeping yourself trans. There's nothing wrong with that if that's how you wish to live, but trust me.. That crap gets old after a while and there's so much more to life than being a transsexual.
Right now your female brain seems to be at odds with your male body.. Surgery may not make you a GG, but there's a good chance it will help you with your body dysmorpia. Once mind and body become more aligned... attitudes seem to change.... Just saying.

[GirlieAmanda]

I see what you are saying. I can relate. I don't take offense. I think it was just that last job for me. It was my first female job. I came out of the box like, "I HAVE to be stealth...I have got to be perfect in my presentation. Are any hairs showing?, did my voice drop too much? Did I walk a little too manly?, Does he know?, does she know?, who thinks bad things? Why doesn't that person like me?, do they think something?", and on and on. Ugh! it was exhausting! I can't live like that. I suppose what I mean is, sure, I am not going to broadcast or reveal my personal business or issues with complete strangers, just like anyone else wouldn't. I don't want to feel like I am being deceptive. It's just how I am. My mentor told me once to "Just Be You" I had to figure out what this simple statement meant. So simple seemingly, but yet hard. For now, I am just living as a female, taking my meds, and just letting that breathe. No surgery plans right now. I plan on just being me and let the chips fall. That feels the best, that makes me feel free.

[Kathryn Martin]

Are any hairs showing?, did my voice drop too much? Did I walk a little too manly?, Does he know?, does she know?, who thinks bad things? Why doesn't that person like me?, do they think something?", and on and on. Ugh! it was exhausting! I can't live like that.

Quite frankly I am long past those kind of thoughts, because they are really not what I talking about. I assume that all this is done and that your presentation is appropriate. Stealth the way I am talking about is quite different. It means that we have stopped to self-inflict wounds to ourselves. We overcome the urge to constantly feel the need to communicate our medical condition to anyone. My doctor, my pharmacist and my spouse are all that need to know.


We will always be...not a GG. We are women for sure, but we will ALWAYS be different. I will always have to modulate my voice, I will always have to take estrogen pills, I will always have a male bone structure, I will always have a prostate even after surgery someday. I will always not have ovaries, a uterus, fallopian tubes. I will always have 40 years of living as a male under my belt.

I am GG in the same way that XY females are GG's, that XXY females can be GG's born with a vagina. I am one of the many exceptions to the rules of genetics. But I also know that genetics tend to show a multitude of variations which affect lack of certain organs in a multitude of human beings. My brain is formed like a female, it thinks like a female, always has. I use neural pathways that are not open to typical genetic males and always have. I don't particularly modulate my voice. I have suffered from estrogen deficiency since puberty (my doctors words not mine) with notable organ and physical health consequences which were ameliorated by intake of estrogen. I don't have ovaries, a uterus or fallopian tubes because of a birth defect not because I should not have had them (hence the estrogen deficiency). I have 59 years of living as a woman under my belt except I spent 56 of those pretending to be a man, someone I never was, because I had a birth defect.

So maybe we are different, but good luck with that.

[GirlieAmanda]

90 percent of MtF's just have men's bodies and female brains. There are a few special cases, but in my experience, the vast majority are cut and dry. My best friend is XXY. She is a special case. You are a special case. I am fairly cut and dry with the exception of natural high estrogen. We did not come out of the womb as genetic women. Our brains and possibly some of our physiology may be not congruent, but the bottom line is that we, unlike the vaaaast majority of normal females that were born congruent, will never, ever be like a normal, average genetic female however we rationalize it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

no matter how we rationalize it???
that's such a lazy way to try to make a point ..just say "case closed" next time....

what exactly is your point anyway? i'm not sure you really understand the conversation people are having on this thread..

you seem obsessed with your differences with genetic women, that sounds a little like unresolved issues to me...case closed..

[GirlieAmanda]

Case reopened, Ha Ha! The original thread was talking about the concept of stealth, the old nemesis. The thread progressed as all threads do. You were quoting me on my first job when I was trying to be "stealth". I hated it. It was exhausting. I said I just embrace who I am and let the chips fall because we will always be different. (Why am I summarizing what is already posted again?) No matter, We will always be different. No matter what we say, think, want, or feel. I don't know why this is new news or taken to be a bad thing to be realistic about being a transsexual. My partner just had GRS. She is living it. No magic happened. No magic fairy dust settled upon her to make her a "real girl". She does not now have memories of her sweet 16, or her first period, her first boobs as a teen or her first date. She does not magically have female internal anatomy, society will not see her vagina (hopefully). She doesn't talk any better, walk any better, or feel massively different. She feels good, she feels complete, she feels glad to have all of the surgeries done. Jess and I have seen and heard about so many girls who have delusions of grandeur. If they get FFS or GRS, then they will be a "real woman" and society will HAVE to accept them as a female! Acceptance in society is earned in my book. It takes work. With family, with work, with the general public, with yourself, it takes work. I don't think having a realistic view is a bad thing. There is no magic. Stealth is an illusion and in my opinion, unhealthy. Just being me feels right. That feels positive. I don't want to hide. I am not obsessed. I feel great. My private matters are my business to the general public thus making "stealth", irrelevant.

[Kathryn Martin]

Girlie Amanda, I am sure you are right and we are all wrong. I removed the portions of this comment that were not appropriate and simply written in anger.

[GirlieAmanda]

You should be reported. I am being honest and forthright in a realistic, but still positive way. You are just being mean. I am sorry if I have pulled back the curtain of La La Land to expose the gritty reality. This is a transsexual forum. It can be life and death here. People have to know what they are getting into and what they face. I live it every single day and so do some really great people I call friends.

[Frances]

If they get FFS or GRS, then they will be a "real woman" and society will HAVE to accept them as a female!

Kathryn is not talking about "if's" and "when's" and using the future tense. There is nothing hypothetical about her experience, or Kaitlyn's, or mine. It is obvious from this thread that actual experience has very little currency on this forum and that post-ops are not to be believed.

[GirlieAmanda]

So someday when I am all done with having GRS and have lived for say 10 or 20 years as a post op, then I will feel different? Sounds great but, I am skeptical.

[Kathryn Martin]

You should be reported. I am being honest and forthright in a realistic, but still positive way. You are just being mean. I am sorry if I have pulled back the curtain of La La Land to expose the gritty reality. This is a transsexual forum. It can be life and death here. People have to know what they are getting into and what they face. I live it every single day and so do some really great people I call friends.

Please feel free to report me at your leisure. I think your honesty and forthrightness may be based on the limitations placed on you by your stage of transition. In saying that your girlfriend will never be a real woman because she was not born a woman imagines a reality which is not the experience of what I consider transsexuals. Your reality may very well be that you will never be a real woman and you justify this by saying that genetically we are all men. But please don't start arguments on my thread about something that is entirely beside the point I was making, and making to those that like me have completed transition and live lives being who we are. We are business people, we are lawyers, we come form all walks of life and we have completed laying the foundation.

You did tromp in here and you did immediately argue with everyone on this thread that dared to take a different view than yours. It is also clear that what I talked about as stealth eludes you completely. Sometimes it is more appropriate to listen at first.


So someday when I am all done with having GRS and have lived for say 10 or 20 years as a post op, then I will feel different? Sounds great but, I am skeptical.

Yes one day after you had surgery you will slowly begin to understand what it means to live life being whole. Look at your own definition of transsexual in the other thread, once you have actually laid that foundation maybe you will understand what I am talking about.

[Dawn cd]

I want to go back to something Kelly said because I don't fully understand the OP. It sounds, Kathryn, as though you are ashamed of your pre-trans life and your pre-trans self. You talk about doing "collateral damage" to yourself and "shooting yourself in the foot" when these things come up. Of course I understand you want to go forward, not backward, but this struggle to be who you are has been courageous and noble. It is part of your history and has made you into what you are today. By hiding it you risk hiding some of yourself. This doesn't mean you have to blab about it to everyone you meet, yet each of us needs to honor our history—because look where our history has brought us!

[Debglam]

When IS enough enough???

I personally think that a person is the sum of their parts and having a trans background, no matter how long ago a person has transitioned and no matter how integrated into their true gender they are IS relevant to who they are now. I really respect these women who have taken leadership roles in the trans community. Many of them could simply disappear if they wanted to but they put themselves out there to help the rest of us. I respect and I love them for that!

Kathryn, you know that I am all about personal choice. We can come close but we can never really step into another person's shoes. So let me tell you a little story:

When I was little and in the throws of realizing that my true gender didn't match who I should be, at least to some extent, I had a neighbor who came out as transsexual. When I say she came out, her name, picture, and story was printed in a number of newspapers! There were some legal issues and being the 1970's, her privacy was irrelevant to the press. You know what it was like before the Internet and the fact that this real live person that I could occasionally SEE with my own eyes let me know what was at least possible! She was ridiculed and I heard a lot of bad things said about her but she existed and she was real! That gave me a LOT of peace.

When I finally came out, I wanted to send her a brief note to thank her for being a "role model" in some ways to this little kid down the block. While her name was in the papers when she transitioned, I had a hard time finding her. (I do searches for people as part of my job.) When I found her, she was living under her married name and there was little to no electronic footprint of who she was now. Just another woman approaching retirement in suburbia. I let it go.

As someone who fought for her rights as a trans woman early on, she could really be an asset to the trans community. However she has chosen to be just another woman. Her choice and I hope that she is very happy. I would still love to meet her face-to-face someday. :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

amanda your comments are not positive...

what you are calling realistic is really just your own made up world view.....
you apparently know a bitter person..i'm sorry for them, but your descriptions of what "didnt happen" after the grs are childish....no serious person would have those expectations.

stop arguing with points that nobody made and work harder at communicating with people instead of just arguing...

[Donna Joanne]

Kathryn,

It is difficult to forget what you have been for the greater majority of your life. Even though I haven't had FFS or SRS, I used to be morbidly obese and weighed 390 lbs. I had tried every diet known to man, exercises, gimmicks and anything else you can think of to lose weight. Then after seeing other people have success with weight loss surgery, I began the quest to have the procedure I wanted (a Bilio Pancreatic Diversion with a Duodenal Switch). I found a surgeon; went through all the psychological evaluations; fought with my employer's insurer (who decided to exclude WLS while I was pre-authorized, without informing the employees); won the war but lost the battle (was fired in hopes that I couldn't afford COBRA premiums, but a friend stepped up and took care of them for me); and had my surgery in 2008.

I now weight 210 lbs., and after I have a post WLS lower body lift and excess skin removal the PS estimates he will remove around 20-25 lbs of skin and fat through liposuction. That will make me 5'11" and 185..around a size 12-14. So I'm saving my nickels, dimes and quarters for that procedure.

But the point I want to make is that no matter how much weight I've lost, there are still days when I see that FAT PERSON staring back at me in the mirror. I spent more years obese than thin, and it's been 5 years since my surgery, I still see myself as FAT. But I'm not. And other people don't see me as fat either, because I'm not!

So many girls who have transitioned or are in the process also look in the mirror and see "him" staring back at them. ANd the world doesn't see "him", they see the "her" we are trying to present. We are beautiful, most just need to realize it themselves.

Some TS girls try so hard to be feminine and pretty, and sometimes try too hard. My BFF is living full time feminine and when we go out she feels the need to be dressed fully in only ladies blouses and skirts or a dress, hose, heels, full makeup..the whole nine yards. I throw on a feminine t shirt, yoga pants, sneakers, my wig and minimal makeup. We go shopping, and she wonders why everyone looks at her different than me. She thinks I'm better at "passing" than she is, but I think she is so pretty and try to tell her that. But she still sees "him". I don't.

And sometimes we are most "stealthy" when we don't even try.

[GirlieAmanda]

(Throwing a bloody steak to the carnivores and backing away slowly...) Wow, I whisper.

[Badtranny]

And sometimes we are most "stealthy" when we don't even try.

Donna, I disagree with almost everything you say. So much of what you write reeks of delusion to me, and maybe I'm just misreading your tone, but I have to say something and I hope everybody reading takes this to heart.

I have a real problem with people using pics of other people in their avatars and I will fully admit that my opinion of you may have been colored by your old avatar. Your new avatar however is actually of you (I hope) and I find myself being much more open to your opinion. I'm not really relating to this last post either, but now I at least consider yours to be a valid contribution.

Of course my opinion and 4 bucks will get you a Latte so it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your new avatar.

[Kathryn Martin]

It sounds, Kathryn, as though you are ashamed of your pre-trans life and your pre-trans self.

Hi Dawn, just to be sure when you say "pre-trans" I am going to assume you mean before my transition. I assure you that I am not ashamed of my own biography. There is a significant difference between being ashamed and not constantly talking about a medical condition I once was suffering from. My struggles were neither courageous or noble they just were. I did not transition to demonstrate my courage, I transitioned to live an authentic life. It is for me a very private, intimate process. I am not and never will be my social environments sensational friend. I generally stay away from blabbing about myself. I do occasionally feel a strange compulsion to reveal my medical history and this is what I spoke to above. It's time for me to say enough is enough and shut up already.




I personally think that a person is the sum of their parts and having a trans background, no matter how long ago a person has transitioned and no matter how integrated into their true gender they are IS relevant to who they are now. I really respect these women who have taken leadership roles in the trans community. Many of them could simply disappear if they wanted to but they put themselves out there to help the rest of us. I respect and I love them for that!

....

As someone who fought for her rights as a trans woman early on, she could really be an asset to the trans community. However she has chosen to be just another woman. Her choice and I hope that she is very happy. I would still love to meet her face-to-face someday. :)

Deb, I think people are so much more than the sum of their parts. I agree with you that biography and a lived life are highly relevant to who you are as a human being. It has little or no relevance as to what kind of a woman you are as suggested by GirlieAmanda. Who we chose to speak about our biography to is really a personal choice. My personal history, my "struggle", my transition are in my judgement really not all that interesting. I am no role model for anyone and I prefer it that way. You see, I have never been nor do I want to be the flag bearer for anything. I have a lot of sympathy and in fact understanding for woman in your story. Transsexuals want to be healed and move forward to live a normal life. The fact that we suffered from a birth defect and overcame it is really nothing spectacular it is what anyone with a birth defect strives for.

But thank you for sharing that story because in a way that maybe unintended it teaches us a lesson.

I just wanted to make a general comment about names because it is related to what I am trying to say in this thread. Naming or re-naming yourself even for the purpose of something like this site carries an element of self identification. Choosing a name says something how you view yourself. When I read some of the names on this site it gives me a first impression of that person. If you say you are "girlieAmanda" (and I chose this just for convenience and could have chosen any other name) then this invokes certain imagery. For me a name like this by necessity contains an element of fantasy, because being 40, suffering from transsexuality is very serious business and not some "girlie" fantasy.

[Frances]

So someday when I am all done with having GRS and have lived for say 10 or 20 years as a post op, then I will feel different? Sounds great but, I am skeptical.

I did not feel different waking up from surgery (I did not wake at all in fact; I had an epidural). The next few months were spent on recovery and dealing with an awful infection. The "feeling different" part happened gradually (and happens for people who are honest with themselves) a year and a half later, not 10 or 20 years later. I did not start feeling like a woman. I did already, which is why I got the surgery. No one feeling like a man should get the surgery and expect to feel like a woman afterwards. This is the being honest with oneself part.

What the OP is saying, and that you and so many others are not getting, is that people who go all the way stop feeling like "trans-woman." We stop thinking of ourselves as such, stop thinking about it, and stop wanting to talk about it.

But you don't have to believe me. The only kind of evidence that could convince would be your own personal experience, and you are already projecting failure.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

amanda what you are doing is just so transparent...and you are basically not really talking about the issue being discussed...
you are totally allowed your thoughts and ideas.. but you are putting your own made up ideals (that predictably failed your partner that got srs) against REAL LIFE stories from women who had no interest in silly things you describe...

and instead of communicating..you argue...

I read "wow" and calling people that disagree with you "carnivores" carnivores as a personal attack

you have nothing helpful to say so you deflect and stomp your feet ..
and try to make the case that all the people responding to you are being in jerks...when in fact, all we are doing is sharing experiences and what they mean...and comparing them to your opinion which is not based on experience at all...

its your life...as a transitioned woman i can tell you simply that what you are saying is setting you up for bad experiences and disappointment...

[Marleena]

Well my main mistake posting in this thread as that it is a topic that a postop (now woman) can identify with, not me (preop). I'm guilty of skipping through the posts which is a bad habit of mine. While Amanda is correct none of us can be genetic females SRS does correct the "issue" as proven by thousands of TS women already. I explained only my own ideal situation based on my own situation. Had I had help in my twenties I wouldn't be here now anyways, I'd be living as a woman out there but it just didn't pan out that way.

[Donna Joanne]

Your new avatar however is actually of you (I hope) and I find myself being much more open to your opinion. I'm not really relating to this last post either, but now I at least consider yours to be a valid contribution.

Of course my opinion and 4 bucks will get you a Latte so it doesn't really matter. I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your new avatar.

Thank you for your honesty Melissa, and yes, that is me.

[Rianna Humble]

Either posters remember the rule about respecting others or this thread will be closed. It is OK to disagree robustly with another member's arguments, but personal attacks will not be tolerated.

If the OP requests it, the off-topic posts will be removed from this thread. Either way, let's get back to discussing Kathryn's main points.

Rianna Humble
Moderator, transsexual forums

[EnglishRose]

I always wondered how easy that would be? To finally accept yourself as A FEMALE. After spending half your life learning to accept yourself as a trans woman?

I would think it's one thing to have others completely accept u. And, quite another to completely accept yourself?

They may not be exactly the same thing. In my case before I started transition and with the help of posts here and elsewhere, among other things, I came to terms with the fact I was a woman. The trans part is with me as a descriptor of what I'm doing now but shall go away.

That said, I see "him" in the mirror - but only in terms of a structure borne of the wrong chemicals and what-have-you. Luckily society sees me as the woman I am for the most part too. Self acceptance is just... a multi faceted thing.

[ReineD]

English Rose, what is FT (full time?), GL, HF, & HTH. Thanks!

[EnglishRose]

That's just me being silly with acronyms :) Mostly irrelevant to the kind of discussion here.

[kellycan27]

Getting back on track: almost 11 years in and I have no compulsion to reveal my history medical or otherwise ( having to do with being trans) to anyone. I have my own " inner moments" ( few and far between thankfully) when I think to myself.. What the hell am I doing and how am I doing it! Wife, mom, homemaker with all the trappings. Once they pass.. It's as though its always been this way... Just as natural as waking up in the morning and I don't give it a second thought.

[Kathryn Martin]

I have been told it takes 10 years post op.

[kerrianna]

Hey Kathryn, how the heck are you? Almost one year! Hard to believe! :D

So I am going to post to this thread against my instincts because, frankly, one thing I have found that keeps me feeling TOO stuck in "trans-ness" is being on forums like this. On the other hand....

... this is something I have thought a lot about over the years. About being "just a woman" or a "normal woman" or whatever. Or at the very least about being KNOWN that way by others. Carol and I talk about how nice it would be to move to a new community where people didn't know my past at all. When I've traveled I've felt freer, lighter in spirit. Like, this... ghost of my past, isn't haunting me. This asterisk of how I was born, and what I have lived through. Just being myself, in the most correct social and physical role I can attain that makes me comfortable and feel in synch with my spirit and my mind.

But... for me (and honestly I find this forum could use a lot more "in my experience", "for me", "I feel" and less "it's this way, not that way" "you should do this" etc...) ... for me being born trans has brought some real gifts into my life too. I think it has made me more compassionate. More resilient. Much more aware of gender and gender roles.

Transitioning itself has given me the challenges to really grow and prove to myself how much stronger I am than I always imagined. And others have told me that I inspire them - people from all walks of life. I have made great friends along the way and part of that was from them watching me transition - watching me summon personal courage and grace and humility and humour in the face of what most people admit they can only imagine to be difficult.

So there is a part of me that is PROUD to be a transwoman. And I also know that being proud of it, owning that aspect of my existence, may help others as they have helped me.

So, personally, I balance that, each and every day - what is more important to me? And we each will have a different answer and a different path, depending on who we are, how we are, what we want in life, where we are in our lives.

For me, everything is open. And I mean everything, in my life. For me transitioning just sparked a whole new open book and in that I can choose to write the story I want to own for myself. Is that story going to be living quietly in the trans colour or will it be more open and up front, to see where that takes me?

My own spirituality is starting to.. insist itself into my life, just as the gender dysphoria finally did. And in my spiritual growth, maybe even into healing work, I see the value of owning my past and what I have come through and who I am.

Yes I am female. I always was, even when I lived as male. That's the point.
How I choose to live as a woman, post op, is entirely up to me and I cannot even say day to day if "enough is enough". For me, there is only living, and riding the surf of a greater life, beyond gender.

I can say that SRS calmed the biggest issue with me. And in fact it made my owning my history and reality as a woman who walked this path much easier to own. There is not so much trauma attached to it. I'm proud to have come this far and it may be the single greatest thing I have done in my life. I'm okay... today.. being known as a transwoman. Ask me on another day and... eh, who knows?

[kellycan27]

You can own your past without broadcasting it all over the place. I am not ashamed of being trans, and I am proud of what I have accomplished. However I don't feel the need to be some kind of poster girl for transsexual women nor receive kudos or be some kind of role model. I have transitioned and now it's time for me live my life as a woman and put everything I have worked so hard for to use. I didn't transition to stay locked up in trannyland. If visiting a forum keeps you " stuck in trans-ness" won't sticking around " helping others" keep you stuck there too?

[kerrianna]

Yes Kelly exactly. As I explained, I shift from one to another. It's where I am today. And it's not that I broadcast, well I wouldn't use that term. It's just I'm open about it. Today. And yeah I know in this day and age that my openness may mean that I will always have that "out' there. Anyone could google me and find stuff I've posted all over the map.

I'm not sure how to articulate this.

I was born female. It was when I accepted that that I actually came into my own power. All the other stuff... that's just finding better ways to live in my own power and identity. Even the SRS - it's a... modification by medical science. I know that. My vagina is quite different in many ways than someone born into a standard female body. There are aspects of my body, and certainly of my past, that a very small subset of women share - and they are my transwomen sisters. I understand and accept that. It's all part of MY womanhood. I've already accepted (other than in moments of weakness and self loathing which is not just tied to gender stuff) that I am as female as any other woman.

HRT, surgery, social transition, all brought me into alignment with the fundamental truth I know - that I was born female in mind and spirit. I know not everyone approaches it that way or thinks the way I do. That's fine. I can only look after my own life, even if I am trying to help others I understand that's all I can do, is share my experience, thoughts, feelings.

So I was thinking about Kathyrn's original question and for me the answer Enough is Enough was that day I finally accepted, fully and completely, even if I didn't understand or was scared or confused... that I was born female and AM female. Whether I transitioned or not was then a path of choice for me. Being born this way wasn't. Accepting it was the only true, real and lasting thing I had to do. Everything else flowed from there.

So whether I do more, whether I proclaim from the highest mountain I am trans and proud of it, or quietly go on living my life in my true gender, all of that is a choice I am free to make. It's all just part of the natural flow from that one truth, that one moment of acceptance and awareness of my own being.

So in a way it's always enough. And never enough. And that's ok. I am very comfortable living with paradox. I don't need answers or any other absolute truths after that one of knowing how I am inside.