the concept of Autogynephilia

[Keri]

Found this most interesting article on the origins of the concept of Autogynephilia, defined as "a male’s propensity to be erotically aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman". The link follows.

http://www.autogynephilia.org/origins.htm

I'll let you read it without my passing judgement on its validity, although I personally agree with a lot of its tenets relating to "the woman inside us".

Keri

[uknowhoo]

Interesting, Keri, thanks for posting. What was actually more interesting to me was the reference to my grandfather, an early psychiatrist. I was a bit surprised to see him referenced, as most of his published work concerned women and alcoholism. Take care. Tammi

[Helana]

Heavy reading but yes there is no question in my mind that it covers nearly all crossdressers. It is not something which is discussed much in the CD community because I think it is very uncomfortable for us as it essentially equates crossdressing as another form of fetish, and it also comes across as being very narcisstic, ie loving the image of yourself.

I believe that most CDers start off this way, but because our focus is on the complete image and behaviour of women we begin to incorporate and associate the role of womanhood with our own personalities which already have inherent feminine traits. Over time we grow an emotional attachment to womanhood which becomes as important as, if not more so, the initial sexual imputus.

I always thought CDers like to downplay the sexual component of our habit because we want to be taken seriously. You need only look at erotic crossdressing stories to see the reality. Personally I am very happy that my fantasies are far more interesting and creative than the standard male fantasy. I guess that makes us more "artistic"

[susiej]

When I came across this thread, a little light bulb glowed dimly in my head. It took Mr. Google to provide the resolution -- I must have come across the term autogynephilia before, while surfing the web.

Mention Ray Blanchard in some transgender circles, and you'll have an argument on your hands. Check out the following website, for example:

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/autogynephilia.html .

Here's a short quote from the tsroadmap page:


"Autogynephilia" is quackery

The pathologization of socially unacceptable erotic interests has a long history. As noted about, recent clinical diagnoses such as "ego-dystonic homosexuality" and "nymphomania" have fallen into disrepute. Many expect "autogynephilia" will be similarly discredited as a diagnosis in time.

In fact, the diagnosis is an example of quackery, which is defined as "overpromotion in the field of health."


Apparently, the issue many people have with Blanchard is not the concept itself, but rather, that he characterized autogynephilia as a "paraphilia", or "problematic sexual desire or behaviors involving nonhuman objects, the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner, children or other nonconsenting persons." -- Quote from the infamous DSM-IV, or Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, version IV.

It's probably also worthwhile looking at the wikipedia article on the term, which gives a good picture of the controversy, at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogynephilia .

Just thought you should know.

Hugs,
Susie

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Autogynephilia is definitely a hot-button issue in a number of circles. Not only because of Blanchard (who's made analogies to amputation paraphilias), but especially because of J. Michael Bailey's infamous "Man Who Would be Queen" book.

That said, there are definitely those who feel it describes them, TS Anne Lawrence being one of autogynephilia's strongest defenders, and what often gets lost in the debate is that Blanchard was was trying to acknowledge
that sexuality related to transgenderedness shouldn't inherently disqualify a candidate for SRS, which was the dominent thinking at the time.

I have seen an interesting argument (http://members.tgforum.com/jamie/lemonadestand.html) that Blanchard got it backwards -- that "self as a woman" sexual fantasies are actually a coping mechanism that some transgenders develop in adolesence to cope as they attempt to live the masculine role -- and that sexual fantasy can come along for the ride as it were as a TS's feminine self asserts itself, adding positive reward to the process. The author of the argument is a full-time TG, so I think her argument probably is more applicable to subset of the population rather than everyone.

BTW, it's worth noting the both Blanchard and Bailey are sexologists, so that does seem to color their views, just as therapists tend to focus their studies on TG on theraputic-related concerns, while a sociologist researcher I know of takes a broader, more societal-oriented viewpoint.

[Helana]

Marlena

I agree that Blanchard's important contribution was to expose the nonsense that transgenderism and sexuality were seperate. They are not, they are inter-twined.

While autogynephilia does accurately describe the important sexual component of transgenderism, it does not explain why it develops in the first place. Why would anybody become erotically attached to the female image of oneself? So I think the argument that Blanchard got it backwards carries much weight, for me autogynephilia is a symptom of gender dysphoria and is created as a means of escaping from our predicament.

Since most of us experience gender dysphoria at the same time as puberty it could even be argued that autogynephilia is an unfortunate circumstance of events because at that young age we are incapable of separating our gender and sexual aspirations. If the two stages were completely seperate and we were old enough to understand gender and sexual issues then I would suggest autogynephilia would not likely develop.

[FionaAlexis]

I think the theory has some merit but only, as a possible explanation of the genesis of their gender dysphoria, for some transgenders.

But I don’t know of any transgenders, whose feminization has evolved beyond the ultra female caricature and sexy clothing stage, who would be erotically aroused by the sight of themselves dressed, if it ever did.


Fiona xx

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this is a HEAVY discussion..if you've seen some of my other posts you know i beleive that x-dressing is a compulsion.. hopefully i'm defining the word correctly but its something that I CANNOT NOT DO...different than an addiction...i think compulsive behavior is a subset of addiction...we can get addicted to our compulsi

i also use the word behavior...its something we do...we get all dressed up and then either lounge around, masturbate or go out for a thrill..some of us even spend significant time dressing

i would venture to say that almost ALL OF US would spend more time dressing if we had the opportunity or the guts..(lots of reasons to not dress--job, family, society,fear etc) also takes too much time to take off the makeup...dont you hate that last hour and a half it takes to clean up!! for me its usually 3 am i have work the next day its sooooo depressing..

also how is our behavior not narcissistic? this is not a criticism or complaint..i think its simple truth...it is wholly self-centered and although we like to be accepted especially by our wives and lovers, its not even remotely about them!!!! i think many of us miss this in our personal lives and its so obvious to those who care about us.. for those who do support us its a wonderful act of love and kindness and it shows how much they love us.

autogynephilia is just a word...my kid has ADHD...but its just a word...she's a bundle of energy, emotion, distractedness and contradicitions..so a doctor says ADHD!!!!!.....its the same for our diagnosis, nobody knows for sure, doctors disagree and come up with big words to describe what then takes them whole books to talk about..

.if that word means a guy who likes to dress up and look at himself, who risks his acceptance by society, risks his relationships with his family and can't stop even if he tries, then count me in...its just a word ..dont be afraid of it.
by the way, i think its the same for fetish...alot of us don't seem to like the idea that this may be fetish..are we really trying to say that my desire to dress up is somehow better than some other guys desire to masturbate in baby diapers??? he has every right to want to do that and act out on it and i don't feel just because i might be able to say well i just x-dress , its NOT A FETISH that it really means anything

i hope people who don't agree don't flame...its just a discussion and this is just what i think

[Helen MC]

Autogynephilia and the Androgene result for the "What is your T Score" thread describes me very accurately, I'm quite happy to say. I am an auto-erotic person and usually imagine myself in a female role when enjoying sexual activity, although in a Heterosexual context not Homo. As one sympathetic woman friend who is in the know once said to me, "If you has a sex change operation you would be a Lesbian"

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

i would venture to say that almost ALL OF US would spend more time dressing if we had the opportunity or the guts..(lots of reasons to not dress--job, family, society,fear etc) also takes too much time to take off the makeup...

Not true. I'm single, live alone, self-employed and mostly work from home. So I could dress most of the time if I felt like it. But I don't. And in fact when I dress a lot I find to hit my saturation point and become less interested. I'm not saying my pattern is better or worse, just that it's different.

I do think a lot people fantasize about dressing all the time precisely because their opportunities to do so are limited. But like some fantasies, people find they're not necessarily interested in acting them out if the opportunity arose.

As far as the narcissism, the desire to look good/feel sexy I think is one the major motivations for a lot of us. As discussed in another thread, the difference between this and similar desires in GGs is that we do "close the circuit" and become the object of our own desire rather than the object of someone else's.


But I don’t know of any transgenders, whose feminization has evolved beyond the ultra female caricature and sexy clothing stage, who would be erotically aroused by the sight of themselves dressed, if it ever did.

Actually they're out there. But since it's not "trans correct" to talk about it only a few people admit to it. I'm not saying they're representative of a larger group that's kept it's mouth shut, only that it's true for at least some folks.

[erica12b]

what about the want and need to socelize, feel excepted by gg's this has always been importan to me but never happened, and is one of (my)driving forces? the excepted is not part of "love of ones self e-fem"

[kwebb]

I think for me sexuality is part of the drive, but the best and most memorable experiences and fantasy I have had with it have been non-sexual. How many times do you think you have masturbated over the course of your life as it related to CD? Not just being in the clothes, but imagining yourself to be female too? Too many for me to even mention. I can't deny it, to do so would be a straight up lie. But there is more to it than that. Even when I was immersed in that totally sexual side of it in my 20s, the rare occasions I would stay dressed for extened periods seemed to allow me to peek into a window. A window of womanhood. When I was just not erotically arounsed at all. Wow. Why can't I just be free to be me and accept my sexuality as part of the gender conflict I feel and not be ashamed of it at all??!!??

Also the further out of the closet I got, the less sexually charged it seemed to be. If this was a world w/o taboo or socially unaccepted stuff who knows what my sexuality gender identity would really be. Its limited with me because of what society says about it. But what if those restricitons were removed. I'd be the REAL me for sure. At this point, I don't even know what that is.

[Keri]

As I started this thread, I've GOT to comment on the comment that (quote) if society allowed our Xdress behaviour, would we still be doing it, or would the "thrill" of Xdressing be watered down (unquote).

I've got to admit that there is a "piquance" to being feminine in a male body. I remember the heart-pounding minutes of waiting to "be discovered" when I was a lad, when I "made my entrance" into the conjugal bedroom in a nightie, when that "accidentally" exposed camisole top was glimpsed by another in a public place (or by my secretary at work ... boy, was that a heart-pounder!).

Women don't feel that way because "being feminine" is what's expected of them. If we were women, or even accepted just as we are, a lot of the thrill would be gone, no question of it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

LOL i cannot argue with the word piquance!!!!


marlena D...i hear you...i am about to be seperated and one of the thing that keeps me sane is that i'll be able to do my fantasy of something like a whole weekend dressed...the thing is i'm totallly aware the reality may not be as interesting or worse that i'll do it, then what????

either way i expect to dress more, and i also expect that i'll get bored with
it...thats why i call it a compulsion not an addiction

[freshfrankie]

I don't know what to say but I read the article and I really have to print it out and really spend some time with it. I've read numerous books and articles on persons like ourselves and always had more questions than answers. There are so many differant opinions and theories about people like us it's so very confusing. I really have no idea why I am what I am. I think none of us do. Do most of us really what to be women? I think not. My personal belief is we all have sexual identity confusion. I would bet a lot of us have had sexual abuse or homosexual encounters when growing up. We don't know where we are on the sexual chart. We are almost a third sex. Does sexuality and eroticism play a role? Most definately and if you say it doesn't your kidding yourself. Are we self absorbed and narcissitic? Absolutley. But all these things don't make us bad people. I have no answers and don't know where people like us can go. We are sentenced to a life of solitary confinement. Some of us will find a way to cope but others won't. Big hugs.

Love
Jeannie

[Helana]

But I don’t know of any transgenders, whose feminization has evolved beyond the ultra female caricature and sexy clothing stage, who would be erotically aroused by the sight of themselves dressed, if it ever did.
Yes you do, because despite being heavily transgendered myself I can still get aroused on occassions.;) Even transexuals will sometimes admit to auto eroticism.


Jeannie, as far as I can tell from reading hundreds of CDs life stories, we overwhelming had standard lives as children devoid of sexual abuse and homosexual encounters. This is also what studies had indicated too. Of course many people could be covering up their past but it is unlikely there is a mass deception going on.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

My personal belief is we all have sexual identity confusion. I would bet a lot of us have had sexual abuse or homosexual encounters when growing up.

As Helena said, that's not supported by the various research that's been done, nor the hundreds of life accounts I've read. For that matter, nor is petticoat punishments, mothers who dressed us as the girls they wish they'd had, etc. While these all have happened to certain individuals, the vast majority (including myself) had pretty unexceptional childhoods.

[Darlena]

As for moi I don't want to disect and anaylize (I almost wrote analize) my Cding too much because it might loose some of it's flavor for me. But that's just me. I think while zeroing in something to study the intricacies we loose sight of the overall. The true beauty of things. Love & kisses :rose2: