Is a beard okay with a dress?

[CindyM]

I was at a club with friends and checking out a cute cute behind in a sweet pasely summer dress. The person turned around and had a flat chest and full beard. In my personal opinion still as cute as a honey bee. However my grrlfriend whom at first liked the behind was aghast at the beard and not only turned off but pissed off at the look. Sometimes I am disapointed that the community I thought would be accepting and toleratant of wide variations of gender expression are so often trying to set rules for others based on their own personal style. What do you think? Is a beard with a dress okay? - Cindy;)

[famousunknown]

Is a beard with a dress okay?

I'm sure this will stir up a hornet's nest , but NO, definitely not ok.

[Beth Wilde]

It will definitely start a heated debate!

I fear it is a no from me too! I get an involuntary shudder when I see it!

[Eryn]

This is the subject of endless debate. In a perfect world everyone should be able to wear whatever they want, included fully bearded men. In our imperfect world bearded crossdressers stand out. The beard is an unmistakable masculine cue and mixing it with unmistakable feminine cues is jarring to many.

Everyone is going to have their own set of prejudices and a lot of these are about society's outliers. I'm not fond of full beards even on males, associating them with 1%ers, terrorists, and vagrants. I've spent a lot of time, money, and discomfort eliminating my personal scourge of facial hair. Crossdressers are, of course, another sort of rebel so perhaps I should be more tolerant.

[ReineD]

If it is in a trans-friendly club, then I agree there is no room for any judgment.

But, it is natural for people to project their fears. Most of us do this to a certain degree. If a CDer who is trying to pass as a woman and who desperately wants to be seen as 'normal' sees someone like this out in the mainstream, he (she?) will fear that such a person will give the wrong impression of men who need to be respected as women.

I honestly don't think that people out in the mainstream are ready to respect and embrace all the different ways there are to be androgynous or queer (meaning outside the gender binary). Also, large chunks of people are still rather puritanical. Likely the CD with a beard, if he is out in the mainstream, would give the impression he is doing this for fetish. Most people believe such behaviors should be kept private. Right? A fetish submissive dressed in latex with a mask and gagged, would also not fare well dressed like this in public unless he is at a BDSM event.

[Lynn Marie]

I like to present well whether in drab or drag. I admire people who present well. I don't care for mixed presentations. They are "jarring" to me and I feel that they make the rest of us look bad. I'd rather not be put in the same classification as a trans-gender mixer. I'd much rather be respected for presenting well. I feel it's a very worthy goal for those of us who live for our time in heels.

[sandra-leigh]

About 5-ish years ago, while I was visiting my mother, I glanced at the (busy) street, and observed a youngish fellow (24-ish) trudging through the blowing fall snow; he was wearing a long-ish skirt... and he had a mid-length beard. I flushed and got a bit upset internally. Upset because I had not dared to do the same thing and walk right out in public wearing what I needed to wear.

A beard with a dress? Good for him! There's no certification requirement or entrance exam for wearing a dress, you know.


They are "jarring" to me and I feel that they make the rest of us look bad.

Which "the rest of us" are you referring to?


I'd rather not be put in the same classification as a trans-gender mixer.

Did he (or she) put you in any particular classification?? You weren't even there, so I doubt it. Or are you worried about how other people might classify you based upon what someone hundreds of miles away did?


I'd much rather be respected for presenting well.

I'd much rather be respected for my character. I am not a fashion model or movie actress, to be admired for my looks. I am a human being (urrr, probably), getting through life like the large number of other people who depend on their personality and intelligence and skills rather than on their looks.

[Tamara Croft]

I'm sure this will stir up a hornet's nest , but NO, definitely not ok.Why is it not ok? So it's ok for you, a man, to wear womens clothes, but it's not ok for a man with a beard to wear a dress? pot/kettle... people really do piss me off at times, if you can't accept others, don't expect people to except you :rolleyes:

[DawnD]

I think it's ok. A person should be able to wear whatever they like, right? Whether I find it personally attractive or not is irrelevant.


My husband often walks around the house wearing a skirt and a 2 day old five o'clock shadow. I find it sexy. It's comfortable for him. Maybe the person you saw was comfortable that way. Who are we to judge how people feel halfway there?

[Michaella]

Of course, so long as one is simply being oneself and not trying to pass as a woman. It may look odd at first, but part of that is that we are not used to it, and we of all people should be accepting of variations in gender presentations. Part of it is that the aesthetics of the combination have not been fully resolved; it's still in the experimental stage. By that I mean we have not figured out what type of beard works with what type of dress. Just like one has to figure what type of blouses go with what type of skirts one has to work out the beard/dress combination. Sooner or later--probably later, alas--it should happen. "Cute as a honey bee?" Maybe what we have here is your admirable open acceptance with someone who has gotten the look right. Marvelous!

Michaella

[stephNE]

If it's Ok with you, its OK with me, what ever floats your boat.
But I can't help but wonder, what is he presenting? If he wants to look like a man, wear a beard, if he wants to present as a woman, a dress, but mixing? I don't see the idea.

[Lynn Marie]

I'd much rather be respected for my character. I am not a fashion model or movie actress, to be admired for my looks. I am a human being (urrr, probably), getting through life like the large number of other people who depend on their personality and intelligence and skills rather than on their looks.

Well your character sure put me in my place.

[mikiSJ]

I always found the best statement to be in Shel Silverstein's cartoon:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8240/8623219426_ca5b5234cc_m.jpg

[Kate Simmons]

Definitely not "the usual suspects" but what the hell? To each his or her own I guess. It's called self expression ya know? ;):battingeyelashes::)

[Michaella]

If it's Ok with you, its OK with me, what ever floats your boat.
But I can't help but wonder, what is he presenting? If he wants to look like a man, wear a beard, if he wants to present as a woman, a dress, but mixing? I don't see the idea.

I think the idea is he wants to present as man who likes to wear a beard and a dress. I've done it myself and very much like it. I only wish it were more accepted.

Michaella

[DonnaT]

I see nothing wrong with it. No different than a man appearing as a man in a dress.

And what about hirsute women (bearded ladies)?

Seems some have the notion

they make the rest of us look bad
Seems to me that that is similar to what some men thought/think of gay men?

A prejudicial concept, IMHO.

[AllieSF]

About 5-ish years ago, while I was visiting my mother, I glanced at the (busy) street, and observed a youngish fellow (24-ish) trudging through the blowing fall snow; he was wearing a long-ish skirt... and he had a mid-length beard. I flushed and got a bit upset internally. Upset because I had not dared to do the same thing and walk right out in public wearing what I needed to wear.

A beard with a dress? Good for him! There's no certification requirement or entrance exam for wearing a dress, you know.



Which "the rest of us" are you referring to?



Did he (or she) put you in any particular classification?? You weren't even there, so I doubt it. Or are you worried about how other[I] people might classify you based upon what someone hundreds of miles away did?



I'd much rather be respected for my character. I am not a fashion model or movie actress, to be admired for my looks. I am a human being (urrr, [I]probably), getting through life like the large number of other people who depend on their personality and intelligence and skills rather than on their looks.

That says it all for me too. Sometimes those that never venture outside protest the most. For those of you who do go out and protest/voice your differing opinion, I respect that opinion, though I do not agree with it. The more of us that are out there in all shapes and forms is better for us in the long run. Just exposing the general public to the multiple gender presentation variations helps all of us. Do I personally like the look of a dress and a beard? No. I do, however admire that person's courage and commitment to be out there doing their own thing and owning who they are.

[Lisa Gerrie]

All I know is that I don't personally find bearded ladies attractive. I try not to care what other people do, and am more likely to think "good for you for putting yourself out there".

[Alexis.j]

I think you should do whatever makes you happy. There is nothing wrong with that... I myself started out wearing a skirt like that, I like being different...
But in the end I suppose it all depends on the image you want to project.

[Trishpdxcd2]

To each there own. I can't imagine wanting that much attention out. Personally I can't understand cd's with facial hair, but thats just me. If it make you happy then by all means.

[Tracii G]

I'm fine with it.
Freedom of expression the way I see it.

[Eryn]

And what about hirsute women (bearded ladies)?

Social prejudice against facial hair on women is what keeps electrologists employed, when they aren't working on me!

[ReineD]

A beard with a dress? Good for him! There's no certification requirement or entrance exam for wearing a dress, you know.

I had a discussion with someone recently about this.

Most of the people in this forum I gather do try to present to others as close as they can to an attractive woman. Of course some members don't feel they could ever pass and so they stay at home and some don't bother with makeup & wigs.

But others who do go out are not interested in having people believe they are women. They're either wanting to redefine male fashion by wearing rather masculine man-skirts with male everything else, or they're more interested in presenting as a feminine male (with polish, jewelry, maybe light makeup etc), and they hope that society will come to accept this one day. I should think that if someone wants to present as a feminine male, they'll do without the beard. :p

Still others though, choose their presentations for political reasons. They used to be called genderf*cks (I'm serious) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender****). The goal was to shock people in an effort to deconstruct all notions of binary gender and I'm guessing that a good way to do this would be to look like a woman from behind, but look very masculine with beard and flat chest from the front. I guess another way to do this would be to dress half & half like some of the Halloween costumes (http://www.coolest-homemade-costumes.com/images/coolest-homemade-half-man-half-woman-costume-3-21308721.jpg). But, this would look more like a costume and it wouldn't be as jarring. At any rate, since the object is to jar people into recognizing there is something other than binary gender, it is not surprising that many people in the mainstream do not react well to this form of presentation, including the CDers whose aim it is to not be a genderf*ck.

I think there are also groups of people who celebrate non-binary gender, but whose aim is NOT to shock people. They refer to themselves as "queer".

Still, no one should be judged at trans-friendly venues.

[PaulaQ]

Still others though, choose their presentations for political reasons. They used to be called genderf*cks (I'm serious) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender****). The goal was to shock people in an effort to deconstruct all notions of binary gender and I'm guessing that a good way to do this would be to look like a woman from behind

An article about this, to some extent:
http://www.bilerico.com/2013/03/the_emergence_and_danger_of_the_acceptable_trans_n .php

[CD_blue]

I think it is completely fine. I am already 6'6 250 pound guy with pink ribbon in my hair to go along with my pink 5 inch heels. :)

If that is what they wanna do so be it doesn't effect me.

[Sandra1746]

Just wondering, especially for those who weren't even there, just HOW did this individual's appearance in any way diminish your quality of life? I suspect you can not identify any negative impacts beyond the vague "personally offended" types. And if we allow those "offenses" then all and any manner of prejudice must also be allowed. You can see how rapidly this leads to evil.

The individual chose to dress like that for some personal reason and unless you are charged with his care it is none of your business. He may be "unusual" but then that label can easily be applied to most of us in this forum.

Just my $0.02
Sandra1746

[Geena75]

I suppose it depends on your goal. If you just like the clothes and have no feminine asperations, there is no conflict -- just a fashion statement. If you are trying to explore your feminine side, though, may not be doing yourself any favors (an explorer who never leaves the backyard -- not going to find anything new). I get the feeling that the gold standard for many is to present as a woman to the best of ability, and get out of the house feeling at ease with one's self.

Honestly, in my case, I'm still exploring in the closet. I do have the goal of going beyond that and seeing how it feels.

[Wildaboutheels]

What a silly Q at a crossdressing Forum.

Why on earth would it NOT be OK?

Or maybe... a man in a kilt with a beard is NOT OK? Let's be honest here. A kilt is a kind of skirt isn't it? Or maybe it's the other way around?

If there were more guys dressing like that, all the people here terified of Joe Doe public would no longer have such an easy scapegoat and would leap out of their closets in droves.

Maybe.

Of course I guess that could also take a lot of fun out of CD busting.

Maybe someone at this Forum with a copy of the CDers Handbook can jump in here and put this matter to rest?

We do ALL need to make sure we are doing this right don't we?

LATE EDIT: Someone with a copy of THE book just PMd me. THE book says that 100 hours of facial hair growth is the Maximum allowed in public. If one stays home the maximum goes up to one week of beard growth.

[bobbimo]

NO!
If you want to dress as a bearded man in a dress, please stay home.
Its your right to do this but I just dont understand it.
most of us are trying to pass/blend.. the bearded lady wont get to far past PT Barnum.
Bobbi

[CindyM]

Eloquent and thoughtful answers. I am delighted to find the diversity of opinion politely shared. -C

[Kelly DeWinter]

I'll have to say that it would be cultural, albeit a relativly new cultural thing. Kind of like women in some countires do not shave legs or underarms and wear skirts and dresses and tanktops.

[heatherdress]

When my mother-in-law did not shave, it didn't matter if she wore a dress or not - she was ugly. And mean. When she shaved and did not have her whiskers, she was still ugly, dress or no dress. Ugly is ugly.

People wear what they want to wear, shave if they want to shave.

Why should we care if anyone else shaves, takes a shower, has a gut, wears dresses, or doesn't pass? Except if they are your mother-in-law.

[Tara D. Rose]

Well to me, all of my life I thought cross dressing or MtF cross dressing is emulating a woman as the best of our ability and skills. So many on here have said that we do this to emulate a woman. So to me a man just wearing a dress but have a full beard is an insult to some of us, not all of us. And a kilt is manly attire from Scotland, and it's not a skirt. I don't think any of us are questioning the right for a bearded man to wear a dress only and go out, of course he has the right. I'm still learning I guess, so is it all changing again, the definition of what a cd is? I thought that a cd was a man emulating a woman, like with all those pageants we used to see on tv. The definitions seem to change on here every week or so.

[Jamie001]

NO!
If you want to dress as a bearded man in a dress, please stay home.
Its your right to do this but I just dont understand it.
most of us are trying to pass/blend.. the bearded lady wont get to far past PT Barnum.
Bobbi

Passing and blending will not do anything to further the cause of CDing. If you pass/blend, folks will not even know that you are a CD because they will believe that you are a GG. On the other hand the reason that women can wear men's clothing without ridicule is because they started wearing men's clothing/accessories as WOMEN. In other words, they didn't attempt to appear as a man by attaching a fake mustache or stuffing a sock down the front of their pants. They just went about their business and women wearing men's clothing to express a masculine side of their personalities, but not to deceive anyone into believing that they are men. Men should be able to do the same by incorporating women's clothing/accessories/makeup in male mode as men and just appear as a feminine male. The feminine male is more accepted by society than the full-on crossdresser that doesn't pass because there is no ambiguity. Regarding the topic of beards, I believe that beards look hideous on either men or women.

[MsJanessa]

I'm fine with the beard and a dress (although not for me personally) The only thing I would ask that person is please don't post on this site asking if they "pass"---lol

[Tamara Croft]

NO!
If you want to dress as a bearded man in a dress, please stay home. Another pot/kettle attitude, so much for support for being different. You want to pass/blend out there, then go do it, this guy with a beard wants to wear a dress, kudos to him for having the balls to do it and not give a shit...

[Kelly Greene]

I have presented mixed gender in the past. While out in public presenting top half male and bottom half female I got reactions that went from "nice legs" to " What the #*%&" . I have to admit that a skirt and heels in guy mode sometimes feels better than wig and makeup in girl mode.
If my consoler and doctor are right and this all has to do with brain chemistry, then shouldet the answer to the question be ¨ As long as you harm none do as you will.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm wearing a beard and stash as I type this and in my avatar and signature pics, Tamara.


Why is it not ok? So it's ok for you, a man, to wear womens clothes, but it's not ok for a man with a beard to wear a dress? pot/kettle... people really do piss me off at times, if you can't accept others, don't expect people to except you :rolleyes:

My answer would be, "Because I don't like the way I look!" I prefer to resemble a female, not a man in a dress. Even if it's only in my own mind.

That being said, if u want to go out with me in your beard and girlie outfit, I'll go have a drink with u! I don't mind how u dress as long as you're comfortable with your look.

[Erica Marie]

Depends on the venue. If it was some kind of dress up party or something fine. But out to be amongst others, please be presentable. Many of us here are doing our best to fit the image of a lovely lady. I guess we all have different reasons why we dress. Sorry for being judgemental.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

As I mature and get older I am trying to evolve and become more accepting on the issue of bearded cross dressers. I still have a ways to go and no matter how hypocritical/pot calling the kettle black it may be, I'm still a no at this time.

[PattiAllison]

I can only speak for myself. I prefer to appear as feminine as possible, I try to blend in as a woman. Wearing a dress with a beard seems to defeat the whole purpose of crossdressing.

[Billie Jean]

Albeit the tone of this thread is a little milder than the thread I started, Who has facial hair and still goes out, this still could get very ugly. I was attacked by several members that were dead set against a man in a dress with a beard. I've been out in public dressed enfeme with a beard and was mostly accepted. Live and let live. Billie Jean

[sandra-leigh]

But out to be amongst others, please be presentable. Many of us here are doing our best to fit the image of a lovely lady.

How does what I wear affect whether you fit the image of a lovely lady?

What I seem to be hearing now is a series of people asking, "Please leave dresses for full female presentation, so that when cross-dressers go out in dresses, people will continue to believe the cross-dressers are (biologically) female." Asking not that the social barriers between what is acceptable "male" or "female" clothes be diminished so that people can wear what they want without it "meaning something"; and not asking that the social barriers be modified so that people can wear what they want to signal their preferred gender role -- but rather that the barriers be preserved so that the choice of clothes can continue to serve as a strong signifier of biological sex (but one that cross-dressers can sneak across with enough preparations.)

Regardless of what my chromosomes might be, my gender is not male, and that is something I have to live with full-time, whether I am in public or not. I have spent thousands of dollars on gender therapy; I went through laser ($1500); I have been on HRT for 2 1/4 years and have struggled with the medical side effects. My wife is considering leaving me with gender as a reason, and I would have to let her go as I cannot live the lie of "male". I have "paid my dues" in my gender struggles, and I will be paying more yet I am sure. So you can be sure I am not going to modify my presentation needs simply in order to "make it easier" for some of you to project the illusion of a different gender.

If you enjoy getting all fixed up to look like the stereotypical female presentation, then do so because you enjoy it -- but don't go telling me that I must get all fixed up too.

If my goal was to look as much as possible like some biological female, then the key in my case would be to let my face dry out a bit more and for me walk around looking tired, because that is when I look so much like my mother that even I need to double check some of the pictures.

[UNDERDRESSER]

As someone who is hoping to go to work in a skirt, but as a guy, then how am I going to object to that? I am wanting to perfect a look for myself that works, the skirt should be fairly simple, and suit my legs and general build. I'm planning on starting with a hiking kilt, and go from there.

Now from the description of this guy, not a look that works for me, but as long as it covered all the bits that needed covering, and he doesn't ask me to copy him, whatever floats your boat mate.

If he asked my opinion, I'd give it, but it is only my opinion.

[paulaprimo]

until about a month ago i would of said yuck, no way, but then i ran into a group of 5 woman (i thought) and then realized that one of them had a beard.
not a full beard, just along the jaw line from ear to ear and trimmed nicely. she carried herself very lady like and was cute as a button. the other woman were
very pretty but there was something about her that really turned me on. i am not normally attracted to cd'ers, but she was the sexiest looking of the group.
i still think about her and her amazing look. granted, its not a very becoming look for most cd'ers but it really worked for her. i wish i took a picture of her
because i think most of you would agree with me. and if by chance, the person i'm speaking about is a member of this forum and reading this, i think you are
beautiful and should post a picture. it was in conn, btw... :)

[Jay Cee]

I think it can be done with class. Heck, I've seen it done with class. Depends on how one approaches it.

[ReineD]

I have presented mixed gender in the past. While out in public presenting top half male and bottom half female I got reactions that went from "nice legs" to " What the #*%&"

Exactly.

Some of us don't care when people say 'What the f*ck'. That's fine in some circumstances, but not in others.

So the OP never did say and people in this thread are giving all sorts of opinions, without specifying the context.

It is OK to look like the person described at a trans club? Yes.

What about a straight club? Maybe, as long as it's not 3 AM and in the wrong part of town.

What about walking down the street in a neighborhood far from home? OK I guess, if you like to startle some people and you don't give a f*ck what they think. Also OK if you like to be the center of attention. I personally would not like that.

What about when you're applying for a job? I don't think so. Going to talk to your child's teacher? Nope. Those are easy ones.

Single and trying to find a date? Your pool of prospects would be small. New in town and looking for people to hang out with? Equally dismal prospects, unless you get in with a crowd that also likes to jar people and be the center of attention. :p

It all depends on the context. I'm guessing the person described in the OP doesn't present that way when it doesn't suit him.

[Melissa73]

why would it not be ok? a a recently outed cder, and one who has met many transsexual people, ive been questioning myself lately, what's wrong with jjust being a guy in a dress (in this case, beard)? some of us may wanna become women, while others are simply comfortable as men in drag. I say if a beard make u comfortable, as a dress... so be it!!!!


Melissa

[ReineD]

I say if a beard make u comfortable, as a dress... so be it!!!!

Do you mean live your entire life that way, and if so how would you navigate this around employers, friends, family, kids, kids' friends, and other things, for example if you want to run for city hall council, or be on the board of your kid's school.

It's a very brave thing to say, but not practical in our society. Or, did you mean just presenting this way to go out to clubs? If so, then I agree with you as long as they are the right clubs where you would not be in danger of getting beaten up. :p

[Melissa73]

personally, I thin k the way one dresses sand looks should be only on e persons concerns! (the person who is gonna be dressed) All my life I heard what I should look like and what I should wear. And to b honest, as an outed cder, I am personally questioning myself, "why cant I be the man I am, and wear a dress? the answer is... I can! I don't have to feel womanly just cuz I swear a dress. And if others choose to wear a dress, why should having a beard be questioned? (I would say, if u feel girly and do not like it, shave it. if u love it.. keep it and who cares what any others think. its ur face, ur life.

melissa

[Anneliese]

In my mind, there is a distinction being made between HOW girly someone is dressed who also happens to wear a beard. I have a beard. I grew it between my original what I thought was a phase of CDing and my more recent "it's a part of life and I LOVE it" time. I like my beard, but since I don't go out fully dressed, I don't feel the need to shave...yet. I totally agree with those who say of course it's ok if someone else does it, and I also totally agree that the world would be more accepting of us if more men dressed in public, whether or not there was a beard. Personally, I'm not going out fully dressed until I shave mine off, but that's a personal choice. On another note, however, I'm sure many who see me from behind think I'm a girl, and that is FINE with me. I wear women's jeans every day, and I have a rather feminine body shape. The jeans accentuate what I've been told by others, and that's that I have a nicely shaped ass. I walk kind of girly as well, and have long hair. I also have natural B-sized breasts, which has garnered strange looks in the health-club locker room, but (thankfully) no harassment or nasty comments. Sometimes, I've even dared (yes, I know it's not a big deal, but it is to me) go out with a very obviously feminine-cut t-shirt. I also sometimes wear a female-style tank top in my yoga classes. In other words, I might anger or frustrate those here who want it to be all or nothing, but I feel showing my feminine side while still presenting as a man is fun.

[Brenn]

I'm personally disappointed at those who have come out so strongly against it. I do however think it depends on what the person is trying to accomplish (intent matters). If the person is trying to create his own form of gender expression, whether it looks good or not, then I'm OK with it (there are crossdressers out there that try to pass, but look terrible; I'm OK with that too). Where I draw the line is when they are doing it to mock is some way. You see this at some of the gay pride parades--I never understood this because it serves no purpose except to make the rest of the world even less accepting.

[Jillian Faith]

I'm sorry if this sounds intolerant as I grow a mustache and goatee every November, but I don't go out dressed during that month. I can overlook the flat chest but the beard and a dress in public is a definite NO NO for this girl.

[Jamie001]

It all depends on the context. I'm guessing the person described in the OP doesn't present that way when it doesn't suit him.

Hi Reine,

May I suggest that you have a look at http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/. This site is about men wearing skirts and dresses as men and also has a section dedicated to "FreeStyle Fashion" which advocated mixing clothing/accessories from both genders. Most of the men on this site are over 40, married heterosexuals that prefer an alternate form of presentation. They are attempting to make progress for men's fashion by wearing what they want to wear as men without attempting to deceive folks by presenting as a woman. Essentially they are doing what women did many years ago by incorporating items from the other side of the store into their normal look. Another similar site is http://www.hhplace.org/ that is about men wearing high heels as men in everyday life.

[Lacyfem]

For all the years I've been dressing I've found cd's with facial hair not to be attractive to me. But that is just me and if they feel fem and wonderful with a full beard good for them. I very often dress fully with makeup earrings the whole ball of wax but don't wear a wig. Some like it some don't but it's just me and how I feel at the time and many have liked this look on me. I once grew a moustache and someone took a pick of me dressed in this wonderful red panty and bra with red heels and I had the moustache. I saw the picture and thought I looked rediculous and not like the fem gurl I want to be. Needless to say I immediately shave it off. One guy labeled me gender queer because of my being fully dressed and made up with no wig which was probably appropriate but that said I do love wigs. But it's a no to the facial hair.

[Lynnmorgan451]

So I was in destin fl, just pulled into the bookstore parking lot and I was sitting in my car w my phone checking my email when I see this couple. The guy was wearing a tight little tank top and skinny jeans, had a full beard and his face was painted like a diva. My first thought was " why would he dooooo that to himself!?!" But then I just couldn't resist the urge to meet this person and talk to him. Tell him about me and try to make a friend. I'm in solid drab boy boring clothes not looking the slightest bit pretty, but I built up some nerve and went into the store looking for this guy. I really searched the entire store and never found them but I remember being kinda grossed at first, but damn I wanted him to be my friend!!!
Loneliness :-p

[Asche]

Do you mean live your entire life that way, and if so how would you navigate this around employers, friends, family, kids, kids' friends, and other things, for example if you want to run for city hall council, or be on the board of your kid's school.

It's a very brave thing to say, but not practical in our society. Or, did you mean just presenting this way to go out to clubs? If so, then I agree with you as long as they are the right clubs where you would not be in danger of getting beaten up. :p
Our situation is a bit like the position of gay people 30 years ago (or, even today, in some places.) You size up situations and decide which contexts you are willing to be "out" in.

Employers: my employer bans kilts, so skirts (on men) are a fortiore out. It's not a job where I feel comfortable showing too much of who I am, so I don't know that I'd wear a skirt even if it were allowed. A friend of mine does wear skirts to his job (and everywhere else), and his beard is quite something. (Jamie001 probably knows who I'm talking about.)

Friends: out. The ones who accepted me before I "came out" accept me now, the ones who don't never really liked me anyway. My church is fine with it, I only get comments when I show up in trousers.

Family: half-out. I wear kilts to family events. But I don't see them but maybe once or twice a year.

Kids: I didn't wear skirts to school events. I'm sure many children and parents knew, since I wear skirts around town, but I saw no reason to confront them with it in school contexts. (My kids' friends definitely didn't care.)

Elected office: I couldn't get elected dog-catcher running against Beelzebub, regardless of what I wear, so the issue is moot.

Club: I don't go to "clubs," unless you count Contra dances. Men in skirts are seen as normal there.

[Wildaboutheels]

I have no earthly idea how so many here can think, that ALL CDers or ANY CDers dress ["however" they choose to] to please OTHER PEOPLE? Or other CDers...

Funny how it also goes for people who dress "normally". To wear what everyone else is wearing just to fit in makes little sense to me. "Sharp" people [it has been my experience] will accept you for the person you are on the inside.

Of course IF one is a completely different person when dressed, all bets are off.

[Cheryl T]

To each his own, but I fear that just as with other variations it will be seen by the non-CD public as either a joke or an aberration.
While it might be cute at Halloween, I'm sorry to say that for someone such as myself who tries so hard to be "passable" it seems as a setback in the attempt to gain general acceptance in the world.

[Stevie]

Just because you don't see it everyday means that it is wrong. I personally don't like the look but if someone I knew did I wouldn't think it is wrong. Just different

[Asche]

NO!
If you want to dress as a bearded man in a dress, please stay home.
Its your right to do this but I just dont understand it.
most of us are trying to pass/blend.. the bearded lady wont get to far past PT Barnum.
Bobbi
Irony, thou art not dead.

By those of society's standards which you are supporting here (gender essentialism), you belong in PT Barnum's sideshow as much as I, regardless of how well you "pass."

At least nobody can accuse me of hiding what I am.

[TGMarla]

To each his (her) own, but I'd opt to NOT have facial hair of any kind when I'm en femme. For years, I wore a moustache, and I wanted to shave it off the entire time. Finally, I did. I don't miss it.

[Jamie001]

To each his own, but I fear that just as with other variations it will be seen by the non-CD public as either a joke or an aberration.
While it might be cute at Halloween, I'm sorry to say that for someone such as myself who tries so hard to be "passable" it seems as a setback in the attempt to gain general acceptance in the world.

Hmmm, kind-of like when women first started wearing pants in public many decades ago without adding a beard? It's the same thing but in a different decade.

[Wildaboutheels]

Perhaps a better name for this site would be Hypocrites R' Us?

It's a whole lot easier to see the world when people are willing to pull the blinders off or their heads from the sand.

[famousunknown]

Perhaps a better name for this site would be Hypocrites R' Us?


Why not just accept that all people have their own opinion instead of pointing fingers/calling names? This is usually the direction this type of thread goes. Why re-hash it over and over?

[sandra-leigh]

Some of us don't care when people say 'What the f*ck'. That's fine in some circumstances, but not in others.

So the OP never did say and people in this thread are giving all sorts of opinions, without specifying the context.

My daily presentation for a number of years has been borderline to past the border, so I've been pretty much everywhere in the city that way, including to work; it is seldom a problem or even considered worth paying attention to.

I have also been around many places in a skirt or dress, with no wig, and often no makeup or at most lipstick. Doctor, dentist, grocery shopping, straight clubs, walking down the street in neighborhoods far from home. The number of 'What the f*ck' reactions I've had is so small that I can't remember any at the moment. I have had some outright laughter, but much much less than one would expect; the two times I have been threatened were by children in the literal sense. (I tell you, when a 10 year old freaks out and starts ranting at length about smashing your head in, you get out of there -- someone that disturbed might have a knife or weapon.)

Do I worry in some of those places? Yes: I am careful about going to the bathroom in some of those straight bars. People might not be saying 'What the f*ck' but that doesn't mean that I expect everyone to be polite.

Do I go everywhere like that? No. A friend of mine warned me to not go to one specific club. But her warning wasn't just to not go Dressed: she warned me not to go even in pure guy mode, that it is a rough bar that one needs to be a tough guy to go to.

I have not figured out yet what I am going to do about applying for a job. I can't go back to being "male". If I cannot be at least borderline at work then it isn't someplace that I can work.

[Ressie]

In a word, incongruous.

[Beverley Sims]

There are such a wide variety of opinions on this one it is staggering to say the least.
Maybe there should be some new categories for those dressing in attire not associated with their gender.
There is support and disgust at the actions of some and all I can say, to each their own and if it is not something I feel comfortable with I will just have to pass.
My position is I wish to emulate an attractive woman, they do not have beards and are generally not hirsute.

[Ms. Laura]

Well, whatever, it's fine. It will definitely get you noticed!

In my personal opinion, it clashes. Like a poor choice of accessories. I wouldn't berate you for it however.

The biggest problem is that it will challenge the public's ability to neatly file you in a category at a glance. Thus conflict is bound to follow when you run across the wrong meathead.

[PaulaQ]

The biggest problem is that it will challenge the public's ability to neatly file you in a category at a glance.

That's often the entire point. Some people don't fit neatly into the gender binary, or perhaps they fell that we shouldn't have to have our legs chopped off, or our bodies stretched on a rack to fit into the bed we're supposed to sleep in. Because everyone knows - you are either a boy or a girl.

Why can't someone simply be who they are, even if that is out of the ordinary?

King Procrustes still reigns.

[Raychel]

I guess to each his or her own, However you feel most comfortable.
Personally I would rather not see a beard with a dress, But if that is
what makes you happy. Then it is your life to live.

[famousunknown]

Why can't someone simply be who they are, even if that is out of the ordinary?


IMHO...because blending in is the better option.

[Jamie001]

Some people don't fit neatly into the gender binary

Why can't someone simply be who they are, even if that is out of the ordinary?


That is exactly what a lot of crossdressers here don't understand. Even most of the CDs here fit the gender binary of (a. when not dressed - 100 percent pure male, and b. when dressed 100 percent all female). For some of us that it not reality because we are part male and part female all of the time. This group would include feminine males (JaneGirls) and masculine females (Tomboys)

[Lisa Gerrie]

Crossdressing naturally forces people into hiding part of themselves. We think we have to be 100% pure male to get by in society, and if we are lucky we get to be girls once in a while. That reinforces the binary model, and explains the abrupt changes back and forth. If not for societal pressures a lot of us would simply integrate pretty things into our daily lives and not feel so much like two people. That's the direction I want to head; the genuine outward expression of the person (one person) who lives between my ears.

[Jeanna]

I think it's awesome to have a beard whilst en femme but it takes work boots to complete that look.

[Rachel Morley]

Personally, I wouldn't do it but that's because I don't like facial hair ... especially on me! I do have some admiration for the person though because I feel it takes quite a bit of courage to do this (not as a joke) in public. I don't personally feel it's a bad thing for CDers per se, as not all M2F transgender people want to present as a woman, the umbrella spreads quite wide in my view ... assuming this person is TG that is, it could be about "clothing Rights" and they're not TG at all.

[Anneliese]

All this talk reminds me of two controversial subjects...abortion and gay marriage.

If you're against abortion, don't have one.

If you're against gay marriage, don't get married if you're gay.

Otherwise, it's nobody's damned business.

As years drift by, the US of A is finally growing more tolerant. Gay marriage will soon be the law of the land, if not now, someday soon (and thank god)

Colorado and Washington recently voted to legalize marijuana. About freaking time!

The funny thing on subjects such as these is that True Conservatives and True Liberals agree. It's the True Pansies in the middle (and hypocrites) who sway with the wind.

[Jamie001]

Crossdressing naturally forces people into hiding part of themselves. We think we have to be 100% pure male to get by in society, and if we are lucky we get to be girls once in a while. That reinforces the binary model, and explains the abrupt changes back and forth. If not for societal pressures a lot of us would simply integrate pretty things into our daily lives and not feel so much like two people. That's the direction I want to head; the genuine outward expression of the person (one person) who lives between my ears.

That is exactly what I do in my everyday life. It is a lot easier to just incorporate feminine items into your presentation and present as a feminine male. It is certainly more readily accepted by society. I just tell folks that I'm the opposite of a Tomboy and they get it. It is really who I am.


I think it's awesome to have a beard whilst en femme but it takes work boots to complete that look.

Yes!! I couldn't figure out what was missing, but I think you go it right by suggesting the work boots! If you don't have the work boots, then get rid of the beard! The beard just doesn't work without the work boots. :D

[PaulaQ]

IMHO...because blending in is the better option.

Why? I can see it being better for you. I think it's probably better for ME. Why for everyone though? Should we start cutting bits off people until we all fit the same mold?

The cold hard truth is that many of us will *never* fit in, not really. Never. No matter what we do, not really. I think that is the unstated consensus opinion, as best I can tell, and as little as I like it. So why even bother?

[Jason+]

Being a man in a dress myself although without the beard I've managed to cause a stir here myself. In trying to understand more about that I learned that for some who have worked long and hard and suffered greatly to get where they are and be seen as the women they know they are that a man in a dress (bearded or not) can a painful reminder of something they fought long and hard or may still be fighting to remove in themselves.

I don't want to cause someone unnecessary pain and I understand that not everybody will want to dance down the street with me. I am also unwilling to hide in house because I don't pass or want to pretend that I am a woman.

[Amy A]

There's a checkout assistant in Boots (big UK health/beauty/pharmacy chain in UK for our non-British members) in the city where I live and work. I'm not sure whether he or she is applicable, but presentation was thus: women's checkout uniform (white top in a kind of medical/pharmaceutical style and black trousers), long black hair tied back, full make-up, but with a flat chest and male voice, clearly not trying to convince anyone that he was female.

I was in the queue, waiting for my turn. There is a bank of numbered checkouts and when one becomes free, a call goes out to tell you which one to go to. I was buying a ladyshave, for myself, and I was really hoping to be served by the aforementioned assistant, but it all came down to a lady doing the whole re-organising purse routine after paying, so I ended up going to a different checkout. But if I had been served by the gender blurring assistant, I would've said 'good on you'. Yes I was jealous that someone could do something that I'd never have the guts to do, but at the end of the day he was actively pushing the boundaries of gender presentation far more than I ever will when presenting as close to female as possible.

He must've had some flak in his time, and some would say that he was inviting it on himself, but at least he was living how he wanted to. And he looked great as well.

The bearded look isn't one I'd ever go for, and not one I'll ever find attractive, and I'm sure that person will have to deal with the consequences of his non conforming appearance, but you have to admire his courage in dressing however the hell he wanted to.

[RonniCD]

LOL.....

The first thing that came to mind was an experience I had in Venice Italyoutside of a funky shop that I happened on in 2002, and visited again in 2006. There were two mannequins outside the store. Check 'em out....They're wearing men's smoking jackets (not dresses, I know, OK?) but check the platform heels. Has anyone else been there?


As for my own opinion: (and I asumed this question meant wearing these OUT)

Q: Is a beard okay with a dress (on me)? A: Not me honey. Not together if I'm wearing either of those things.

Q: Is a beard okay with a dress (on you)? A: What the heck do I care? But I won't kiss you. I just won't find it atractive for my tastes. Whatever floats your boat.

Q: Is a beard okay with a dress ? I dont know, why would you? Wanna work for P.T. Barnum? (Actually, you could probably get a good gig in Cirque du Soleil's Zumanity ]:D

Fun thread! :battingeyelashes:

[LilSissyStevie]

You haven't been here long or you would know that in general the "TG community" is the most intolerant group there is when it comes to deviating from the gender binary. Without it, they'd be out of business. First you let bearded men wear dresses and next thing you know women will be wearing pants.:eek:

[flatlander_48]

Well, it does take the edge off...

[LelaK]

I don't have time now to read all the messages in this thread, but I'd like to say a little bit that may already have been said.

I agree that beards etc on CDs are somewhat jarring at first, but I think humanity will get used to it, if it doesn't put its iron fist down first. I'm turned off by just about anything masculine, but I get used to it and soon am no longer bothered much.

There are definitely guys out there who don't consider themselves CDs, but they just want to be able to wear whatever they want, instead of society dictating that. So for some it's just freedom of expression, which I applaud. Actually, I consider guys better looking for the most part if they wear "women's" clothes. For some reason I don't find masculinity aesthetically pleasing. Flat chests on the other hand seem okay to me, because girls also have flat chests and they still look good to me too.

Society is pretty much okay with men having long hair now, so I think it may also adapt to men wearing dresses etc.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Cindy, It would be ok if you worked in the circus.

[Loni]

a beard and a dress..ok for Milton Berle. but not off stage.

i go to extremes to remove hair.

.

[Anneliese]

To each their own.

[DebbieL]

It sounds like he might have been GenderQueer - this is a Cross-Dresser who does not try to "Pass" as the opposite sex. Such people are willing to take the "heat" of being identified, and at the same time, are free to express themselves. Some are transsexual but unable to pass, so they don't try. Others want to be able to dress the way they want, without having to do the parts they don't want to do, such as double-shaving, make-up, and plucking or waxing.

The transgender phenomena includes a wide spectrum of people ranging from the transvestite who lives his entire life in "Stealth Mode" to the post-op transsexual who is now living their life as their chosen gender on a 24/7 basis.

Some are submissive, and enjoy the "humiliation" of being in a public place with their wife or mistress, knowing that they can't pass.

[Wildaboutheels]

Is it too late to ask how long is the beard and what color is the dress?

[danielletorresani]

Definitely not okay.

The way I see it, to do something like that is just asking to be judged.

[sandra-leigh]

The way I see it, to do something like that is just asking to be judged.

People judge people all the time. There are social circles where wearing the wrong color of socks is a major social gaffe, enough to lose promotions or contacts with The People Who Matter.

I have been many places around my city in dress or skirt but not Made Up. I get more pleasant smiles and more people talking (nicely) to me than when I went around town as a "male". Seriously: I am, on the whole, more accepted as female-ish than as a guy. The "why" of that is not entirely clear, and I puzzled over it a fair while... until eventually someone mentioned that when I am out in a dress or skirt, I look happier. More people are positively affected by my looking happier than are negatively affected by my unusual clothes.

[Michelle (Oz)]

Not my 'thing' but I know that I'm not the 'norm' either.

One question, would s/he use the mens or ladies restroom?

[clairebostock]

I'm sure this will stir up a hornet's nest , but NO, definitely not ok.

I'm with you a beard is not the right look with a dress. For me it just not look right, sorry....but then that's up to them just not for me.

[Georgina]

Of course it is OK. How can anyone claim to be different and not allow others to do the same. The general consensus here is that in order to wear a dress you must be female or appear to be female. Therefore a man in a dress is not right. That is narrow minded thinking at it's best. If you wear a dress, and paint your face like women do, it is OK to do so,but don't put down those that do not do so. Choosing not to hide your male face is also OK. I think women, in general, are scared of men presenting as women because they imagine that they will eventually want to become women, leading to the loss of a husband,boyfriend, brother,father etc. It may feel safer to have a man in a dress that wants to remain a man.
Some claim that a man looks stupid in a dress. I have noticed a lot of women that do not look too clever in a dress as well. If the world is to move forward on this, the first move is for men to be accepted wearing dresses. Once that is the norm choosing to appear as a woman would be an easier step.

[famousunknown]

Ok, considering this 'anything goes' mentality that some of you have, is there anything that's NOT ok?
People like to be seen as so liberal here, but when the rubber meets the road, I really doubt that would be the case.

[Amy A]

Ok, considering this 'anything goes' mentality that some of you have, is there anything that's NOT ok?


Yes, anything that hurts or is done with the sole purpose of offending others. In this case, the bearded lady wasn't really hurting anyone (I don't believe he was 'damaging the cause' or anything either).

[famousunknown]

Yes, anything that hurts or is done with the sole purpose of offending others. In this case, the bearded lady wasn't really hurting anyone (I don't believe he was 'damaging the cause' or anything either).

Well, with that in mind...
Some people could be very offended by a bearded lady. Opinions vary.

[PaulaQ]

People like to be seen as so liberal here, but when the rubber meets the road, I really doubt that would be the case.

I don't think liberal or conservative has a thing to do with this, hon. I think it's fairly evident that almost all of us are statistical outliers in terms of gender. Some of us are further out there than others. I think if a person needs to express their gender in a way that contrasts sharply with the normal idea of binary gender, then that is what that person should do.

This isn't a liberal or conservative thing - fact is - we're all "out there," compared to the "norm." That's just the reality.

BTW, I can also understand why most of us want to blend in and be accepted. That is a pretty natural feeling as well. And I have no doubt that for many of us, expressing the opposite gender very strongly is the correct way to best express who we are.

But that just isn't true for everyone, and I think we should be accepting on this forum, because I bet there aren't too many people here who doesn't understand how tough it is to feel different all of your life.

[AllieSF]

Ok, considering this 'anything goes' mentality that some of you have, is there anything that's NOT ok?
People like to be seen as so liberal here, but when the rubber meets the road, I really doubt that would be the case.

That which is illegal is a great place to start at. I do not think that anyone here is saying that you have to like it for yourself. What we are saying is that if someone wants to go out that way, that is their choice, not yours nor mine. They have to live whatever consequences of their actions that they get. Whether someone else gets offended or not is that offended persons issue not anyone else's as long as the offended person leaves well enough alone.

When we decide to become fashion, presentation and moral police, the problem becomes what is acceptable or not. Who writes the rules? What would happen if the majority of us decided that all of us should go out with beards and exposed hairy chests and you were in the minority saying you did not want to present that image. Would you conform to the "moral/fashion" majority or would you do your own thing because that is what works for you? Some here in the past have said that presenting as a false woman all made up trying to blend and pass was an offense to the TG rights movement and that we should be more obvious that we are males who want to dress in women's clothing? It gets real complicated. That is why a lot of us are saying dress and present as you want, even though it is not my/our particular style. Live and let live and all that stuff.

[boink]

Why shouldn't a beard with a dress be okay? It's just a choice of presentations.

Now for me, I both wouldn't want to present like that, nor do I find it particularly attractive, but I'm not about to judge someone for what look they want to put together. Some people just like a more gender-blended look, and if that's their boat that's fine with me!

[famousunknown]

What we are saying is that if someone wants to go out that way, that is their choice, not yours nor mine. They have to live whatever consequences of their actions that they get.

This is true. It is each individual's choice. Just don't be surprised when you encounter the wrong person and your 'choice' lands you in the hospital. I know...you say "not in my neighborhood", but it could very easily happen.

[Amy A]

Well, with that in mind...
Some people could be very offended by a bearded lady. Opinions vary.

Yes but notice I said with the sole purpose of offending others. He wasn't really doing that was he? So therefore I personally don't have a problem with it. I don't think it's a good look, but it's his choice!

[Asche]

Just don't be surprised when you encounter the wrong person and your 'choice' lands you in the hospital. I know...you say "not in my neighborhood", but it could very easily happen.
Unless someone supplies (verifiable) stats for assaults due to mixed-gender dressing, I'm going to call BS on this one.

You could encounter the wrong person and end up in the hospital, regardless of your clothing choice. Based on our local newspaper, it's pretty common (once a week or so in my village.) But I've been walking around in a skirt on a daily basis for getting on 10 years, and have never had even an unpleasant incident. Based on my experience, riding a bicycle is far more likely to get you assaulted.

But most (non-vehicular) assaults occur between people who know each other, so if you're going to get beaten up, it's more likely to be due to a poor choice of "friends" (or of spouse or SO) than a poor choice of clothing.

[famousunknown]

Unless someone supplies (verifiable) stats for assaults due to mixed-gender dressing, I'm going to call BS on this one.


Come on down south for a week and we'll see if you still have that opinion.

[Angiemead12]

I would never do that but I wont judge others, if he gets a kick from that then let him be!

[ArleneRaquel]

I really don't care for beard wearers who dress enfemme, but to each his own.

[Anneliese]

"Midnight Cowboy" is a great movie. Everyone should see it.


Come on down south for a week and we'll see if you still have that opinion.

Probably correct. I remember being a long-hair hippie and venturing into Wyoming. I'm lucky I survived. ******** unfortunately still exist.

[Jamie001]

Come on down south for a week and we'll see if you still have that opinion.

There are a lot of folks down there in the South that never finished third grade and are still members of the KKK. In fact, in some areas of the South, black people and other races receive the same poor treatment that they received in the 1950's. The mindset had not changed since the 1950's. The Bubbas are very dangerous and need to be avoided at all costs.

[Anneliese]

I shop for women's clothes at thrift stores in some dicey neighborhoods. So far no issues, but I wouldn't be surprised if someday an ignorant redneck caused some trouble.

[Diane Smith]

Intellectually, I support everyone's right to present themselves in any manner they choose, without being judged or put at risk of assault (or worse).

Emotionally, I just don't like the dress-with-a-beard look, and I think people who wear it look kind of weird and creepy. I probably wouldn't engage in conversation or even acknowledge someone so dressed. But I wouldn't do anything nasty to them, either.

It's possible that I might be able to develop a more open attitude about this with time and experience.

- Diane

[dawnk]

I used to think LGBT folk would be more tolerant of everyone until I got involved with one on a college campus. It didn't take long to realize that they didn't care for or support the BT folks. In fact, it only took two years to drop the LGBT label and switch to a Gay/Straight alliance.

It was then that I realized that prejudice comes in all races and genders. People have blinders when their brain can't process something they've been taught is wrong or haven't dealt with in their own life, as in my case, the fact that someone might want to wear clothes of the opposite sex. And rather than attack me personally, I always get something like "Why would you want to wear heels?"

I compare the differences between genders to that of Football and Star Trek fans. It's normal in society for the football fans to paint your face your team colors, but you're a geek or worse, a little off, if you wear a Klingon outfit. It's like it's acceptable, sometimes sexy, for females to dress as males in our society, but it's still a ways off before we men can wear pretty clothing without be scorned, shunned or made fun of.

Give it time though, some day, men in dresses with beards will become as common placed as women voting, smoking their own brand of cigarettes, and *gasp* leaving the kitchen to work at the same jobs as men. :-)

After that, read 'Regiment of Women' by Thomas Berger to find out what happened when women finally run the world and one man wants to wear female clothes, play female sports and dare to live a woman's life.

[linda allen]

NO, definitely not ok.

I agree. ...............

[NicoleScott]

There are a lot of folks down there in the South that never finished third grade and are still members of the KKK. In fact, in some areas of the South, black people and other races receive the same poor treatment that they received in the 1950's. The mindset had not changed since the 1950's. The Bubbas are very dangerous and need to be avoided at all costs.

Let's be careful to not assume that all Southerners are uneducated racist rednecks. The murder rate in Chicago doesn't make all Chicagoans murderers. I'll take my chances here in the South rather than in Chicago.
It's interesting that CDers (men) who want to buck the norm and go out en femme want to draw the line on how others present themselves in public.

[CindyM]

Intellectually, I support everyone's right to present themselves in any manner they choose, without being judged or put at risk of assault (or worse).

Emotionally, I just don't like the dress-with-a-beard look, and I think people who wear it look kind of weird and creepy. I probably wouldn't engage in conversation or even acknowledge someone so dressed. But I wouldn't do anything nasty to them, either.

It's possible that I might be able to develop a more open attitude about this with time and experience.

- Diane

Yes I can understand what you are saying about your emotional reaction. You have the right idea to work on that IMHO. We have to remember that to most of the world a man in a dress whether bearded or smooth is "kind of weird and creepy." It will change someday...

[CindyM]

I am delighted with the comments in the thread. I purposely poked a bit of fun at you all to test the waters. (although the story is completely true, as it happened). I am sooo happy to see that for the most part this is an open accepting group. At the end of the day, love is all there is.

[bobbimo]

Another pot/kettle attitude, so much for support for being different. You want to pass/blend out there, then go do it, this guy with a beard wants to wear a dress, kudos to him for having the balls to do it and not give a shit...

Tamara,
Its just not right. If it was the middle of summer and you saw a person wearing a full length wool coat, scarf and gloves, you would probably think there was something wrong with this person.
The same for a man with a beard wearing a dress, one would first think there is something wrong with this person.
It just doesn't make sense??
Bobbi

[mona lisa]

I honestly do not know what the point would be in wearing a dress with a beard out in public. That said, if someone wanted to do it, go right ahead.

[Jenniferathome]

Is it "ok"?

For me, when in girl mode, no. I want to present as womanly as I can. For others, it's their call. As long as that person doesn't complain about the sideways looks he will get, it's his deal. That is an aspect of cross dressing I don't understand.

[rachael.davis]

There's a rather odd couple in Herts
Who are cousins (or so each asserts).
Their sex is in doubt
For they're never without
Their moustaches and long, trailing skirts.

Edward Gorey

[Wildaboutheels]

At a Crossdressing site, it almost looks [to me anyway] as if some of the tones here are that a MAN should not wear ANY female items out in public, unless he does "everything he can" to pass as a female? Because it's just plain wrong...?

Or am I misreading some of the posts?

Since there are so many here at this Forum who want to do it "right"...

What might be helpful is for one of you to start a separate detailed thread and include EVERYTHING that a guy needs to do, before he can go out and try to "pass". [I am assuming that "passing" is the only acceptable reason in YOUR minds?]

DETAILED list. How about earrings? Lipstick? Purse? MUST a woman carry a purse. Or wear lipstick or earrings?

[sandra-leigh]

What might be helpful is for one of you to start a separate detailed thread and include EVERYTHING that a guy needs to do, before he can go out and try to "pass".

When I visit my mother, sometimes she ends up lending me some of her typical clothes (e.g., we are going somewhere muddy, or I need a sweater, or the weather goes unseasonable.) So we head out together with me wearing the same kinds of clothes that she is wearing. Simple long-sleeved shirt (no buttons), shapeless jeans. She doesn't wear makeup; she doesn't wear a watch; she doesn't wear jewelry. She doesn't carry a purse either; she carries (or wears) a fanny-pack. So if it is just a matter of clothing and accessories, I am already doing the same as a GG.

[Wildaboutheels]

Now I'm wondering...

If a beard is NOT acceptable with a dress...

Maybe it goes better or is more acceptable with a skirt?

I am almost sure I read somehwere at this Forum that with a skirt one can only have a mustache or goatee?

No wonder so many folks are afraid to leave their closets. This CDing stuff can get realllllllllllllllly complicated.

[GaleWarning]

I believe that we should all be free to wear whatever we want.
So I say it is OK to wear a dress with a beard.

[famousunknown]

I believe that we should all be free to wear whatever we want.
So I say it is OK to wear a dress with a beard.

"should" is the key word here. There's a lot of things that "should" be, that just aren't.
Why waste another page on this thread? NO, a beard with a dress, skirt, or femme attire
is NOT OK. Unless you're in a carnival sideshow. Just don't do it. period.

[Lorileah]

\
Why waste another page on this thread?
Mostly because of what you said after that. Your opinion is YOUR opinion. And when you say what you just said you invite arguments. Thus we waste another page on this

[Jamie001]

"should" is the key word here. There's a lot of things that "should" be, that just aren't.
Why waste another page on this thread? NO, a beard with a dress, skirt, or femme attire
is NOT OK. Unless you're in a carnival sideshow. Just don't do it. period.

Why not? Women wear men's clothing all of the time without attaching a fake mustache. It is the same.

[Angela Campbell]

Its is pretty simple. It depends on what you want. If you just want to wear the clothes you like and don't care what people will think or how they will react then wearing a dress with a beard is ok for you. If you do not want to draw attention then the answer is not to do it. There is no law against it.

[famousunknown]

Why not? Women wear men's clothing all of the time without attaching a fake mustache. It is the same.

The same? Really?

http://emmanuellemanor.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/woman-wearing-tie.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/043eb514b09210fff0dd694e396c83b4/tumblr_mgdbxdHW841raq1ago1_400.jpg

[Ceri Anne]

Is it OK? If thats what makes him happy, then sure. Is it a look I would like? Or a statement I would want to associate with, not nessessarily. I know I would not go out for a night on the town with a beard and a dress. It wouldn't fit in with the image I am portraing for myself.

[ReineD]

My SO and I had quite a discussion about this thread. I told him my objections to "dress + beard". I explained that in my opinion, it is important to consider how prepared or accepting another person might be with certain appearances and if the look is jarring to them or not in keeping with the venue, then it should be avoided. My analogy was going to Church in a bikini.

My SO responded in the same way as many people in this thread who support the look. He believes that if someone wants to go to Church in a bikini, they should be able to. My SO champions freedom of expression of any kind, and he defended the legal and moral right of a person to sport a beard while wearing a dress if he chooses to do so, and further that a bearded crossdresser should be able to do this without any threat of being beaten up or victimized in any way. He gave as an example, the "Sl*twalks" ... the women who protest against the idea that what women wear or how they behave can make them a target for rape, by holding demonstrations while wearing nothing other than bras & panties.

I can't say that I disagree with my SO. People do have the right to express who they are without being harassed (or in the case of a young, drunk, scantily clad college girl at a frat party, raped).

So instead I'd like to reframe this by stating how I might react to the man with a beard dressed in a purple off shoulder dress, as shown in post #132.

I'd most definitely be friendly if he were my neighbor, in the detached way that neighbors are friendly and polite to each other. If I walked by him on the street and he smiled and nodded to me, I'd smile and nod back. If I worked at a clothing store, or if I were a nail tech, or a waitress and he should patronize the business, I'd serve him with a smile and likely chat and joke around with him the way that I would with anyone else.

But at the risk of being judged bigoted, I want to share what my reaction would be under different circumstances:

Would I date him if I were single? No.
Would I feel comfortable going out to dinner with him as a friend? No. He would draw way more attention to himself than I like or feel comfortable with.
Would I feel comfortable walking down the street with him? No in small town America, no in business districts of large cities, no at malls, no at straight night clubs, maybe in certain city districts that had a lot of other people living on the edge walking around, yes at pride parades, and yes at other trans-friendly places.
Would I hire him if he dealt with the public or business customers? No.
If he were my young daughter's best friend's father, and my young daughter wanted to spend the night over at his house? Yes because I've been involved in this community for a long time and I understand, but if I had never met my SO and knew virtually nothing about this community, then I've got to be honest and say no.

[Jamie001]

The same? Really?

http://emmanuellemanor.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/woman-wearing-tie.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/043eb514b09210fff0dd694e396c83b4/tumblr_mgdbxdHW841raq1ago1_400.jpg

Yup exactly the same except people are used to seeing the picture on the top and not so used to the picture on the bottom. Notice that the women in the top picture is not wearing a fake beard or a mustache in attempt to deceive folks that she is really a man. If a woman can wear men's clothing as a woman, then a man can wear women's clothing as a man. Do you see my point?

[Anneliese]

I agree 100%.
I y'am what I y'am.

[GaleWarning]

The same? Really?

http://emmanuellemanor.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/woman-wearing-tie.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/043eb514b09210fff0dd694e396c83b4/tumblr_mgdbxdHW841raq1ago1_400.jpg

I am always fascinated by the way people choose images such as these to offer a biased point of view.

[famousunknown]

Do you see my point?

No, do you see mine?

[sandra-leigh]

A couple of members of the GBLT community in my city specialize in doing "hard drag". If they don't happen to have natural a beard themselves they will construct a fake one, possibly obviously fake (such as using green sequins.) I have met them casually a few times and had a chance to observe them, and I find that I rather enjoy their company; I would willingly hang out with them. And they are amazingly creative.

[Heather1129]

Hi Reine,

May I suggest that you have a look at http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/.

Jamie, thanks for posting that link, I had never heard of that place before. I spent a good portion of the weekend reading the posts there. A whole different attitude there.

FWIW, there is no way on God's green earth I could put on a dress and makeup, etc and go out and think "I am blending in like any other girl." It just isn't in the cards. There is nothing feminine about me. I am built like a football linebacker with a bit of a beer gut. I have a beard 6 to 8 months of the year. So does that deny me the ability to put on a dress and go out and about if I want? I certainly am not trying to make anybody think I am a woman. I am just wearing an article of clothing, albeit not considered "normal" for my gender. So what? I like to wear dress and skirts, what can I say?

Heather

[Jamie001]

Would I feel comfortable going out to dinner with him as a friend? No. He would draw way more attention to himself than I like or feel comfortable with.
Would I hire him if he dealt with the public or business customers? No.
[/LIST]

Reine,

Can you please answer the two questions above if the person we are discussing is the woman that is dressed in a man's shirt and tie as in the image above. Please give it some introspection before providing your response. Hint, the top and bottom pictures are really not different. It's just that you are not used to seeing the bottom picture.


No, do you see mine?

I'm sorry, I don't see your point since the top and bottom pictures basically represent the same thing. Can you please clarify?

[famousunknown]

I'm sorry, I don't see your point since the top and bottom pictures basically represent the same thing. Can you please clarify?

One pic looks perfectly acceptable.
One pic looks absolutely ridiculous.
You figure it out.

[RachelB.]

It's not a look I want to try but then again I can't grow a decent beard anyway! I admire anyone who is self confident enough to put themselves out there. There is always one indivigual who feels it is their duty to make a ignorant ( in my humble opinion) comment about anything they perceive as differant.

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

I'd say No. A man with a beard in a dress is incongruent, and really a derrogatory slap in the face and affront to those of us who simply want to identify and blend in with all other women. This is one reason I'm getting costs for lazer treatments.

Chery Ann

[Jamie001]

Jamie, thanks for posting that link, I had never heard of that place before. I spent a good portion of the weekend reading the posts there. A whole different attitude there.
Heather

Heather, you will fit-in perfectly on skirt cafe because the folks there wear skirts as men. Some of the men are more feminine than others but that this the group over there. Men with beards and skirts are common on that site. Additionally, high heel place is another site where men wear heels as men; many of them in everyday life. You don't need to attempt to deceive folks that you are a woman in order to wear skirts, dresses, and other female fashion. That is the though process on this forum, but it's biased and not reality. Also, there are no differences in the pictures in this thread of a woman wearing a man's shirt and tie, and the man wearing a dress. No differences! It's just that society is more used to the picture of the woman wearing the man's shirt and tie because women get out there and bend gender rules all of the time but that never try to deceive anyone into thinking that they are men. That is what we need to do in order to be accepted by society - get out there and wear feminine clothing as men without attempting to deceive folks into believing that we are women.


One pic looks perfectly acceptable.
One pic looks absolutely ridiculous.
You figure it out.

Neither picture looks ridiculous. It is just that society is used to the first image because they see it almost everyday because women's wear men's fashion but most men are too afraid to wear skirts or dresses and therefore it isn't see as much.



I'd say No. A man with a beard in a dress is incongruent, and really a derrogatory slap in the face and affront to those of us who simply want to identify and blend in with all other women. This is one reason I'm getting costs for lazer treatments.
Chery Ann

Blending in with other women will never result in the same fashion freedom that women have. The only way to obtain that fashion freedom is to get out there and wear women's clothing and accessories as men, without attempting to deceive folks into believing that you are a woman. That is how women did it. They started wearing men's clothing/accessories as women and didn't attempt to deceive folks into believing that they are men.

[sandra-leigh]

A man with a beard in a dress is incongruent, and really a derrogatory slap in the face and affront to those of us who simply want to identify and blend in with all other women.

How does what someone else wear change how you identify, or change how you blend in? Or are you proposing what I mooted earlier: that dresses be reserved for women and those CD who "pass", so as to help reinforce the public thought that "Only women wear dresses, therefor someone wearing a dress should be assumed to be genetic female" ?


One pic looks perfectly acceptable.
One pic looks absolutely ridiculous.
You figure it out.

There are a number of common manners of dress for women that look absolutely ridiculous to me. That doesn't mean I put them down, and does not mean that I think I should be able to say what someone else wears (or does not wear.)

[UNDERDRESSER]

Ok, considering this 'anything goes' mentality that some of you have, is there anything that's NOT ok?
People like to be seen as so liberal here, but when the rubber meets the road, I really doubt that would be the case.Let's see, what would happen if that guy with the purple dress came into the store i work at? If I met him cold, no warning, I'd probably snigger, then immediately apologize. The apology would be honest, full, and heartfelt. I'd probably tell him i wish I had his nerve. the apology would have nothing to do with the fact that if I had been seen by senior staff, or if he complained, I'd be in trouble. Your town and probably your stores sound different.
Well, with that in mind...
Some people could be very offended by a bearded lady. Opinions vary. I'm offended by willful stupidity, also by teen males that wear the crotch of their pants around their knees, both because it looks stupid, and by the gansta look it is trying to emulate. Also note your own comment. "Opinions vary"
Come on down south for a week and we'll see if you still have that opinion.What does that have to do with anything? Not going anywhere like that, and if i did, I'd take precautions. Again, irrelevant to the discussion.

But at the risk of being judged bigoted, I want to share what my reaction would be under different circumstances:

Would I date him if I were single? No.
Would I feel comfortable going out to dinner with him as a friend? No. He would draw way more attention to himself than I like or feel comfortable with.
Would I feel comfortable walking down the street with him? No in small town America, no in business districts of large cities, no at malls, no at straight night clubs, maybe in certain city districts that had a lot of other people living on the edge walking around, yes at pride parades, and yes at other trans-friendly places.
Would I hire him if he dealt with the public or business customers? No.
If he were my young daughter's best friend's father, and my young daughter wanted to spend the night over at his house? Yes because I've been involved in this community for a long time and I understand, but if I had never met my SO and knew virtually nothing about this community, then I've got to be honest and say no.
Thank you Reine, for the last one, but what do the others have to do with anything? Is this guy trying to date you? Or get a job from you? No? So, where does the rest of that matter? Do you think this guy doesn't know that he's restricting his options in such regards? Maybe that's the point. Maybe he is deliberately self sorting his personal interactions to those who don't have a narrow view of gender and the world?

From the description, I'd find this mix of gender cues jarring, and not asthetic, but that only matters when I consider what I want to wear., has nothing to do with what other people can wear legally.

[ReineD]

Reine,

Can you please answer the two questions above if the person we are discussing is the woman that is dressed in a man's shirt and tie as in the image above. Please give it some introspection before providing your response. Hint, the top and bottom pictures are really not different. It's just that you are not used to seeing the bottom picture.

Precisely!!! We are not used to seeing men with beards and pouffy purple dresses. This is why it is so jarring to us!

The woman is wearing a woman's shirt, not a man's. the shirt is tailored for a woman's breasts and torso. The tie is a gender neutral accessory, just like plain gold band wedding rings. And yes, I would hire that woman. And no, I would not hire that man. He would be a laughing stock dressed like that and would detract from the business at hand.

So in defense of your point, you might tell me that if every CDer wore dresses in public while sporting beards, society would get used to it (just as they did with women's pants 70 years ago), and an image of a man with a beard and a purple pouffy dress would no longer seem strange or laughable.

My response: It still won't work. When women began to wear pants, they wore them in droves. And unlike the guy in #132 who is wearing a woman's dress, women actually wore women's and not men's pants (tailored for women's hips in cute fabrics compared to men's pants). At any rate, it didn't take long for 100% of women to begin wearing women's (not men's) pants. But, there is only a very small fraction of men who crossdress (3%). So even if all CDers in the world were to start wearing women's dresses while sporting beards, there still would not be enough of them to inure society. They would still be looked upon as odd (and sometimes laughable) ducks, because they would be wearing women's and not men's dresses.

However, if men wanted to wear man-skirts (just like the woman above is wearing a woman-shirt), then I think this would come off very well. The entire look would have to be masculine though, with masculine shoes and hairy legs, just as the woman's appearance in #132 is very feminine with streaked hair and makeup. Here's an example of the type of look that is comparable to the woman in the picture and I think might have a chance of being universally adopted by men.

Few CDers here would go for it though, because it is not women's clothes and the look is not feminine enough:

201385




Thank you Reine, for the last one, but what do the others have to do with anything? Is this guy trying to date you? Or get a job from you? No? So, where does the rest of that matter? Do you think this guy doesn't know that he's restricting his options in such regards? Maybe that's the point. Maybe he is deliberately self sorting his personal interactions to those who don't have a narrow view of gender and the world?


I'm using the premise that a guy with a beard in a dress might want to find someone to date, might want a job, might want to make friends. I was pointing out that the pool to draw from in our society would be very small. If he is deliberately restricting his options, then he's a loner? Do you think there are many people whose views of gender and the world are broad enough to feel perfectly at ease with a bearded man wearing an obviously feminine looking dress?

[Jamie001]

Reine,

Thanks for the well thought-out response. The problem is that we live in a society where clothing is assigned to genders and it is assumed that everyone will like the clothing that has been assigned to them by default and that gender is binary (all masculine, all feminine, and no in-between = total BS). That is exactly where the problem lies. In my case, and a minority of other folks on this forum, from a gender perspective are neither male or female. I am on a continuum somewhere in-between but leaning more to the feminine side. Therefore, I am a male that has a more feminine presentation, much like a Tomboy has a more masculine presentation but you can still tell that she is of the female sex. I don't advocate wearing a beard and a dress because the beard would be too masculine for me. It doesn't fit my character. I am a JaneGirl and just want to be who I am but unfortunately I can't go to work wearing high heels and Capri Pants. On the other hand, I work with a female engineer that comes to work wearing tee shirts and army boots. I just want to be afforded the same latitude, but I won't try it at work. On the other hand, in my personal life, I am that JaneGirl. I look forward to the day when the parents get together and proudly exclaim "what a cute little JaneGirl", just like parents have been saying "what cute little TomBoy" for many generations. That is what needs to change. Males have a feminine side and should express it rather than suppress it. Males expressing a feminine side may result in a lot less violence because a lot of males have so much pent-up anger as a result of society not allowing them to express themselves except though aggression or violence.

The problem with the masculine skirt is just that, it is masculine but I don't see myself as masculine so it is a no-go for me (eek!). Society needs to realize that folks should not be pigeon-holed into binary gender boxes. Women have broken out of the binary gender box many years ago, and I'm not just referring to fashion! Women are allowed to be masculine now-a-days and can even fight in combat, but a man can't wear high heels or even have slightly long hair in the military. Society is attempting to keep the old patriarchal masculine stereotypes and won't let go! That is the problem in a nutshell.

Also, it's not just CDers. I am somewhat different that the CDers on this forum being that I'm a JaneGirl, however, I still don't want to be relegated to all masculine clothing and nor do I want to be told that I must attempt to deceive folks into believing that I'm a woman because both scenarios are unacceptable to me. I just want to be a feminine male. It is interesting that I have more difficulty being accepted as a feminine male on this forum than I have out and about in society because most of the folks on Crossdressers.com subscribe to the gender binary mindset (e.g. I am 100 percent male today, but tomorrow I will be 100 percent female).

[Kali]

How about an illustration that is more to the point. This person has been to a restaurant I frequent. Yes it is clearly someone with a beard in a dress (and the Santa in the off-season jokes have been made). They are comfortable and happy, and frankly, he gets far fewer looks than a gentleman who shows up sometimes in thigh-high 10" platform female fetish boots, female tights and lycra top. Nice wig and perfectly made up face (none of which hides the fact that it is a guy in women's clothing).

The latter makes me far more internally uncomfortable than the former, even though they are both nice people. But if I was making a guest list for something to do in public I would have no qualms about inviting the bearded guy, while fetish guy, despite a much more female presentation, wouldn't make the list. My own personal choices.

I shaved my beard off when I started dressing almost full time. I prefer the confused looks from people who notice the great legs and cleavage, then realize I'm 6'5" and not exactly skinny, to those I would get if I kept my beard. That too, was my choice.

[UNDERDRESSER]

Reine, I agree with pretty much everything you say, apart from the bit about shaving the legs and the whole look being suitably "masculine"

One thing I still have trouble getting across, is that i don't feel we should have such rigid ideas about what defines masculinity. As currently defined, men should be strong, silent, should be well off and able to support his chosen female, he should not make his emotions visible, he should be dominant, he should not display his body in overtly physical ways...etc.

The problem with all that is that it comes at a cost, and not just to the male, it tends to require the female adopt the opposite, with all the restrictions that suggests. Some might feel I'm taking this to extremes, but that's what society does, it sets up roles, and then tries to force us into that mindset.

I work in a very laid back environment. I was reminded of this yesterday, talking with a female co-worker. I complimented her on a very off the wall presentation, very definitely her style, and something that would have garnered a few startled looks on the street. As she pointed out, "Here I can be myself" I believe that I will be permitted a hiking kilt, and probably suitable skirts. ( yes, very like the one you suggested ) though I feel I need to prepare the ground somewhat before the skirts.

I'm not sure I would even define what I propose as crossdressing, I want to redefine what is acceptable for a male to display, I see no reason it should not be accepted for a male to be the one who displays in the way that females are allowed to in todays world.

[ReineD]

I agree with you, Underdresser. No one says that men cannot redefine men's clothing. The argument is against the men as described in the OP. We do live in a society that does not react well to men in beards who wear feminine dresses. As much as we like to think otherwise, men and women do very much want to differentiate themselves and the clothes they wear is an important way of doing this. If men want to wear skirts, they will have a much easier time being accepted if they masculinize the look in the same way that women have feminized pants and shirts.

People in our community like to believe that gender and sexual variance is more widespread than it really is. Some of us like to believe that everyone has the potential to be bisexual. Or that gender is a social construct so therefore anyone can be whoever they want to be. Or we believe perhaps that if all crossdressers stopped internalizing the transphobia, they could all be out and proud and this would make a difference. But the reality is that the vast majority of people across all cultures are heterosexual gender-congruent, and they just don't get it! And there aren't enough people who are not heterosexual gender-congruent, who can help to educate everyone else through sheer exposure. Transgenders and their spouses and friends are a very small part of the overall population and there is no amount of arguing in threads like these that will fix this. Our only hope is to increase awareness through education, laws, and the media.

So again assuming that a bearded crossdresser would want to be in a relationship, have a job, and have friends in our existing society: as broad-minded as I am on a personal level, as much as I would support my SO wearing a dress at home if he had a beard, I would not like to live my life with a person who would choose to constantly draw negative attention to himself in public like this. I would tell my SO to either wear the feminine dress and shave the beard, or keep the beard and wear the masculine Marc Jacobs look.

I don't think this is all that unreasonable given the society that we live in. Not everyone is suited to live a f*ck-you existence, or make strong political statements for the sake of making a point.

[Asche]

I'm using the premise that a guy with a beard in a dress might want to find someone to date, might want a job, might want to make friends. I was pointing out that the pool to draw from in our society would be very small. If he is deliberately restricting his options, then he's a loner? Do you think there are many people whose views of gender and the world are broad enough to feel perfectly at ease with a bearded man wearing an obviously feminine looking dress?
It's the dilemma many people face whose nature does not fit into what society deems acceptable. (gay/lesbian, trans, neuro-atypical, intellectual in anti-intellectual states, etc.)

Do you try to turn yourself into a person you're not, or at least maintain a 24/7 pretense that you are, in order to "fit in," have friends, have a "normal" job, have a family, knowing that when you're on your deathbed, you'll look back and realize that you have never really been alive, that you've already spent your whole so-called life in a coffin of your own making?

Or do you spend at least some of your time getting to know who you really are and living honestly, at the risk of being ostracized, hate-campaigned, imprisoned. mutilated, and killed? (Cf. Lucy Meadows.)

It's a tough choice. Except that, for some of us, option #1 isn't really an option. My earliest memories are of various adults saying to me, "why can't you just ---?" Long before it occurred to me to actually put a skirt onto my body, I found that most people didn't want to be my friend: I somehow didn't dress right, didn't talk right, didn't play right, for all I know, didn't smell right. The few people who were willing to be friends with me were the people who accepted me as I was, not as I was supposed to be. The few employers who were willing to hire me wanted me for what I was good at, not for what I wasn't.

I spent 15 years in a marriage trying my best to be what my wife wanted me to be, and it almost killed me. Now I figure, if a woman isn't interested in dating/SO-ing with/marrying the man that I am, why should I waste her time and mine? If it means I spend the rest of my life celibate, it's better than what I went through in my marriage.

Now that I'm out, I just can't see wasting what's left of my life pretending to be what I'm not.

I still get up on workdays and cross-dress in business-casual pants, shirt, socks, and shoes before getting on the train to the office. But when I get home, the first thing I do is to take them off and get into something that feels right. My circle of "friends" is smaller, perhaps, but they are the people who actually accept me, rather than going through a (very) few motions. My church accepts me as I am (curmudgeon-ness and all.)

I already tone down my presentation from what I would wear if I felt completely free. I already make compromises. But if somebody decides to kill me tomorrow for my unwillingness to knuckle under, I'll still have had almost 10 years of living as me (more or less.) IMHO, 10 years of living outside the mop closet is worth more than the 20-30 years I might have left if I kept myself locked in that mop closet.

[ReineD]

Do you try to turn yourself into a person you're not, or at least maintain a 24/7 pretense that you are, in order to "fit in," have friends, have a "normal" job, have a family, knowing that when you're on your deathbed, you'll look back and realize that you have never really been alive, that you've already spent your whole so-called life in a coffin of your own making?

Yeah, but honestly do you think that someone who insists on growing a beard and wear feminine dresses is doing this because this is who they are? Or do you think that they are making a point and they could easily dispense with the beard.

[Asche]

Yeah, but honestly do you think that someone who insists on growing a beard and wear feminine dresses is doing this because this is who they are?
What reason do you have to believe that I am not?

[Beverley Sims]

From Sandra Leigh out of post #93.
People judge people all the time. There are social circles where wearing the wrong color of socks is a major social gaffe, enough to lose promotions or contacts with The People Who Matter.

I was ostracized once for wearing an orange jumper on St Patrick's day.
I did not have a clue about the politics in Ireland...
All the hypocrites did though.

[Wildaboutheels]

There are obviously many folks who have responded to this thread that have clearly never watched NBC's singing show "The Voice". TONIGHT is your last chance to watch it and maybe learn a thing or two.

Maybe.

It's your choice.

[Jenniferathome]

... i don't feel we should have such rigid ideas about what defines masculinity. As currently defined, men should be strong, silent, should be well off and able to support his chosen female, he should not make his emotions visible, he should be dominant, he should not display his body in overtly physical ways...etc.
...
I'm not sure I would even define what I propose as crossdressing, I want to redefine what is acceptable for a male to display, I see no reason it should not be accepted for a male to be the one who displays in the way that females are allowed to in todays world.

Why fret over something that will never, ever happen. For me, this kind of complain is equivalent to saying, "people should not hate other people." While an ideal aspiration, it's not reality. There are evil people and there will always be evil people. The perception and expectation of the male and female role will change slowly over time but will never be the same because males and females are not the same. Millions of years of evolution has made it that way. In our lifetime, it will be what it is. One less thing to worry about.

[Megan Thomas]

I've watched this thread with interest, taking in everyone's opinion. Getting back to the original question of "What do you think? Is a beard with a dress okay?" my response has got to be NO.

I really don't see what it has to do with gender expression or societal values as I'm looking at it from a purely aesthetic view, and aesthetically I don't find it a pleasant look. That said, what someone chooses to do in the privacy of their own home or a club is entirely their business and i'd give my full support to them then if it was wanted.

[Jamie001]

In our lifetime, it will be what it is. One less thing to worry about.

This type of thinking only advocates more of the same. Your statement should be "in our lifetime, it will be what you and I create". You can either sit on the sidelines and whine that "it is what it is", or you can do something to affect change. Our gay brothers and sisters decided to affect change. Will we cower in the closet or follow in their footsteps wearing high heels?

[Wildaboutheels]

Maybe it's nothing more than a preemptive strike. He wants any possible/future ladies to know that he likes to [at least sometimes] wear a dress...

But NO, any future partner need not worry about him shaving his beard off because of the clothes he likes/chooses to wear.

Another possible answer is that until states or cities outlaw it, of course it's O B V I O U S L Y... OK.

???

If people are not careful here, some will start claiming that it's NOT OK to post poorly lit, poorly focused pics in the bathroom mirror.

[Judith96a]

Why shouldn't you wear an orange jumper on St Paddy's day? I know plenty of places where they'd buy you a pint!

[UNDERDRESSER]

Why fret over something that will never, ever happen. For me, this kind of complain is equivalent to saying, "people should not hate other people." While an ideal aspiration, it's not reality. There are evil people and there will always be evil people. The perception and expectation of the male and female role will change slowly over time but will never be the same because males and females are not the same. Millions of years of evolution has made it that way. In our lifetime, it will be what it is. One less thing to worry about."Fret" is an odd word to choose. I'm not fretting about it, I'm annoyed about it.

Evolution has given us a general division of physical attributes, in general, women are weaker, more emotional, more inclined to physical display to find a mate. They tend to be the homemakers and the males tend to be the more adventurous, the hunters. That's what you find when you analyze the population, and chart the findings. But if you actually look at the distribution of those traits, you find there is one heck of a lot of overlap. I personally know many very adventurous women, some of whom could kick the asses of large percentage of the men on this forum. Should they be forced to become Susie homemaker? Conversely, should I be forced to put on a suit and tie, or a set of Cathcarts, and go off and be a wage slave in a job where I am not allowed to display my softer side? And you're wrong, while it may not be true in your locale, where I live, and where I work, equality is making serious inroads. The females around here are treated equally as far as opportunities go. They find out what strengths people have, and develop them. They work with you to overcome weaknesses. If one aspect of the work just doesn't suit, they don't just throw you out, they put you where you can contribute, and where you work best. If that means you are a good Ops person ( which means moving a HUGE amount of gear around, and bossing a pretty big crew ) then that's where you are going to end up, unless there is someone better. Our current Ops person is very jolly lady who can fling boxes with the best of them and straighten out a wayward newbie with a word. The deputy manager is a man who for all the world looks like a tough nut, but I know he has a very delicate and understanding manner when dealing with staff's personal issues.

The same goes for what you wear, or how you chose to behave. As long as you are decently covered, the clothes are suitable for the work ( i.e. no open toed footwear in the warehouse ) clothing style is eclectic to say the least. From a practicality viewpoint, pants and shorts rule, for everybody, but some of the girls wear skirts or dresses, at least one guy was wearing a kilt in backstock a while back. On any given day, many of the guys around here are wearing very colorful items, I openly wear womens pants, haven't one negative word about that. I will be asking about the kilt in customer facing position, and I'm almost certain it will be given the green light. There will be a response from customers, and unless it is massively negative, I think I'll get the OK for suitable skirts as well.

[Kalista Jameson]

A beard with a dress? Well if it were muttonchops with a leotard, I'd go kookoo for Cocoa Puffs. I think the premise of the question is off a bit as to whether it's "okay". There is nothing "wrong" about having a beard while wearing a dress. As long as the person accepts the reality that they are going to get a lot of looks and comments because of the choice, that's all that can really be said. I personally wouldn't do it, but that's because I am me. If I wanted to, I would.

If someone wants to sport a chin rug like ZZ Top while wearing a cocktail dress, go for it. I'd hang with ya. =)

Cheers,

Kalista

[Jenniferathome]

Will we cower in the closet or follow in their footsteps wearing high heels?

Jamie, what if one is NOT cowering in the closet nor carrying a banner of equality. That's the third option you forgot: just enjoy your life. That was not a third option and the reason for the gay movement.

[sandra-leigh]

I really don't see what it has to do with gender expression or societal values as I'm looking at it from a purely aesthetic view, and aesthetically I don't find it a pleasant look.

Jeans as casual wear were formerly considered to be not a pleasant look. Shorts were formerly for male children only. Long hair on guys was considered to be not a pleasant look (but before that it was...) Hippie-style, T-shirts, Punk, Goth, Hip-Hop -- not "pleasant look" when they started, but eventually those all became signs of conformity.

[LilSissyStevie]

It's easy to forget that we've already been through something like this. Back in the '60s, America was much more conformist than it is today. That's probably an understatement. If you read history today, you would think that period was a time of anything goes. But the truth is that in the beginning there were only a few non-conformists, mostly confined to the Bohemian ghettos of the big cities. But they shocked the nation so bad that it was all the nattering nabobs could talk about making the phenomenon seem bigger than it really was. When guys like me started growing our hair long the reaction was hostile and violent. Women wearing pants was "improper" to a previous generation but long hair on males was wrong, wrong, wrong!!! I can only imagine the uproar there would have been to the question "Is long hair OK on men?" if there would have been crossdressing forums in the '60s.

Just having long hair was genderqueer terrorist act that was going to bring down the republic. Even if it wasn't meant that way (it was in my case), that's how it was received. I got hostile comments of the "Are you a boy or are you a girl (http://youtu.be/Yiwvti7txCM)" type daily from strangers. One time I was waiting for a bus and an old lady started hitting me with her umbrella and calling me names. LOL! There were many times I had beer bottles thrown at me from passing vehicles. The worst incident was when I got pistol whipped by two rednecks who jumped me while I was hitchhiking. I thought I was going to die that day. There was no recourse to the law since the cops smacked me around, too.

A few years latter, everybody had long hair. If you want to épater la bourgeoisie you've got to be creative in this fast changing world. My hair is now longer (and thinner) than it ever was in those days and it doesn't raise an eyebrow - even when my wife ties my braid with a pink bow. The trouble is that society has been "shocked" so much in the last 50 years that it's just boring now. A bearded guy in a dress is just seen as a kook rather than a rebel and kooks abound. I'm proud to be one myself (a kook that is, not bearded) but I keep it private nowadays. I fought the good fight and now it's the younger generations' turn.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Maybe it is me... but when I first saw the picture of the bearded guy in the purple dress, the first thing that stood out to me was the fact he was wearing a strapless dress with a bra with straps (and how tacky that looks), not his beard.

[Beverley Sims]

Judith,
I know but there are other believers..........

Purple.....an oxymoron here

A US citizen that understands British Comedy.

Sounds like Military Intelligence.

[famousunknown]

#173 and counting...

[Anneliese]

I LOVE long threads! It means there's actually a discussion going on rather than a couple of reactions to a thought and then moving on...



I can only imagine the uproar there would have been to the question "Is long hair OK on men?" if there would have been crossdressing forums in the '60s.

Just having long hair was genderqueer terrorist act that was going to bring down the republic. Even if it wasn't meant that way (it was in my case), that's how it was received. I got hostile comments of the "Are you a boy or are you a girl" type daily from strangers

THANK YOU! I was there as well with long hair. Damned near got killed in Wyoming in the early 70s. Had a cowboy with spurs ask me if I wasn't using the wrong restroom, and was stunned when I lifted his arm, which was blocking the entrance, and walked into the restroom. The town of Lander actually SHUT DOWN rather than serve me and my friend. It was exactly like the restaurant scene in "Easy Rider". Had my boss threaten to fire me for my long hair. He wanted it cut so bad he offered to promote me if I cut it off. I refused, instead getting a short-hair wig, which pissed him off even more. It was TOTALLY unacceptable to "society".

Now rednecks have long hair. It is totally acceptable.

I happen to be a CD who has long hair and a beard. IF I ever went public, I would shave it off, but this would be MY CHOICE, and would NOT dictated by anyone or any society. I believe I could pass, and since I'd be thrilled with that, why not do it?

Men with dresses? Hell yes! "Society" has no right to give a damn.

[Jamie001]

Men with dresses? Hell yes! "Society" has no right to give a damn.

Amen to that, and we have every right to wear them. The question is as always "will we stand-up for our rights, or will we wait for someone else to do it for us, or will we just cower in the closet to overwhelmed by fear to even confront the issue? It is our choice...

[famousunknown]

Men with dresses? Hell yes! "Society" has no right to give a damn.

It's not about who has a right to do or think whatever. Society says - "Hell No!" to men in dresses.
Now...it's your call whether or not that matters to you.

[Anneliese]

Aren't you a CD? If so, why would you knowingly defend idiots? F**K morons!

[Tamara Croft]

Done to death, thread done!